The End Of Bilt Card?! Wells Fargo Losing $10 Million/Month | Wall Street Journal Reaction

[@AskSebby]

💳 Learn more about Bilt: www.asksebby.com/go/bilt 💳 Sebby's Card Picks: www.asksebby.com/credit-cards Use the card 5 times each statement period to earn points. See the Bilt Mastercard® rates and fees here: www.asksebby.com/rates/bilt

[@micahgreene4573]

One thing I don't understand Sebby. Bilt (WF) gave me a routing number and account number that corresponds with my Bilt card. I pay the rent with that. So there is no swipe fee. How are they eating swipe fees?

[@iTzDritte]

🍝 Shoutout to the founder of Bilt for playing Wells Fargo like absolute fools.

[@yurig2530]

He recently had a wedding in Egypt in front of the Spinx and Pyramids.

[@RC94332]

The 🐐

[@jwil4286]

@@yurig2530wait seriously? PLEASE tell me the honeymoon was in the Maldives!

[@yurig2530]

@@jwil4286 in an overwater villa, like we all like!

[@NinaSimone24U]

Karma for Wells...crooks

[@whimsicalhamster88]

The Bilt card doesn't make much economic sense. It's only used by renters to pay rent. That's something 99% of people will pay in full every month. They're not going to use that card to carry a balance. They don't get the transaction fees because they're cutting checks for most of these folks. On top of that they have to pay the cash back. It's good for the consumer and terrible for the bank. Makes perfect sense that Wells would want to disconnect.

[@a500n24]

You have way too much faith in the average consumer.

[@barrettbritt]

@@a500n24not the average consumer. Did you not listen to the section of the video discussing the average Bilt cardholder? 31yo, 760 FICO. With no sign-up bonus, there’s less short-term appeal which typically attracts far more delinquent spenders.

[@Adiscretefirm]

If you only pay rent you don't get points, 5 transactions per month minimum to get rewards

[@Skwerl132]

@@Adiscretefirm rent + separate rent service fee + 3 other scheduled purchases on the 1st. If short use something like $5 Amazon auto refill every 1st, has to be on 1st for 2% cashback. Great card to set up 5 automatic payments on then never use, it's what I've done.

[@angieharris8015]

@@Adiscretefirm which is why I break-up my rent 5 times. LOL Actually, I do use it to pay for utilities too. Oh wait, there's more! I (ALSO) have a mortgage, so I use Bilt to make those payments too)

[@daveek9023]

My oldest credit card is from BOA. Would be impossible to not recognize their POS user interface!

[@richsamuel2922]

A point of sale UI? 😉 😜 😅 😂

[@spaethco]

BoA catching strays in a video about WF and Bilt. 🍝

[@genovaz]

Deserved for having a garbage ux.

[@AskSebby]

😛 Dear BoA project manager, please update the UX.

[@yurig2530]

@@AskSebby WF is not much better if at all.

[@EthanCowlbeck]

I didn’t know for sure but that was my guess 😂

[@aarzu10]

I feel both seen and attacked! 🏦🇺🇸 🍝

[@Coder-jy5ih]

And people were complaining BILT should add mortgage to their credit card😂 bruh CC companies do not exist to help you

[@SOURCEw00t]

I wouldn't count that out just yet. Not the CCs out to help you, but for mortgage payments. If they can figure out how to make it more profitable it could work.

[@familiarshadow1]

This is the least surprising thing ever.

[@clownworldresidentii5184]

it's entirely possible to get more people to carry a balance, simply by approving more sub-prime borrowers, a la Capital One

[@SmallSpoonBrigade]

You can also lower interest rates, but that defeats the purpose.

[@tower07]

Wow the ceo did respond to email directly

[@yurig2530]

From an overwater villa in Maldives!

[@ryanshannon6963]

@@yurig2530 I need the classic Sebby timestamp at 4:30am from the email to confirm!

[@iamjustguy]

I find Bilt is a great card to schedule all my monthly subscriptions/payments on. Easily hits the 5 tx/month requirement and scheduling them for the first of the month gets double points!

[@evbaseball27]

Reminder for everyone that the AA partnership ends on the 24th! I'll be emptying my balance to AA as I live in a hub

[@priestesslucy3299]

AA?

[@evbaseball27]

American airlines

[@zacharydingo]

🍝 Thank you for your thoughts, as always, Sebby. It's cool that Ankur Jain responded to you

[@johnny_ma]

If I recall correctly Seb was asked to be an investor in Bilt a few years back so they know each other and that's why

[@iTzDritte]

🍝 My building stopped their electronic payment portal so I can’t get those sweet Bilt points right now anyways. 😢 (they lose paper checks left-and-right so I’m not doing the “have them ship checks option”)

[@TomSramekJr]

If you did minimum $10 or $20 per transaction, you could keep 5 transactions and be fine.

[@nickbachman663]

And you get 3x on dining so you could easily get a deal that way.

[@ryanshannon6963]

@@nickbachman663 The issue is that they're going after the Amex demographic. While the Amex Gold has the $250AF, they give you 4x on Supermarkets and restaurants. I think if WF added a $95 AF but added the Supermarket/Drugstore component at 4x and upped the restaurants to 4x along with renegotiating the account acquisition to $50 or $100/customer I think that would make it a solid contender for everyday use. I'm not sure what the hotel transfer partner situation is with BILT, but the airlines are not bad (Alaska and United, along with several *A and FlyingBlue on the list) they are poised for a great points generating travel card, but just for everyday use. The fact you can pay rent without fees for $95 is totally worth it. If WF really wanted to make this a card to convert renters to home buyers they would put in an incentive that you get maybe 15 bips discounted from your interest rate when buying a home if you have a bilt card for at least one year, maybe punt in some sort of closing cost incentive to help alleviate some cash to close requirements when you close. People will happily pay a bit more in interest rather than bring $10k or $20k more to close. They could also incentivize allowing BILT customers to pay their mortgage using BILT if they closed with WF when they purchased using the aforementioned stipulation.

[@Mojorisin1293]

I’d be down for an annual fee and credits so long as they’re semi-usable. Make it a more premium card. Anything to keep the 1x on rent really

[@lewis20002000]

Very well done Sebby, I would expect Bilt to take advantage of the WJ article and increase monthly spend or transactions.

[@sharoky13]

I still love my Bilt card. Hope they figure something out! 🍝

[@BuiltNutritionFitness]

I could see them upping the minimum transactions from 5 to 10. I currently just have reoccurring expenses on it and it’s probably not what they want.

[@_iErik]

The card only really works for: 1) people who frequently carry a balance 2) people who only have 1 credit card and just use it for everything. I don’t think either of these groups were who primarily picked up the Bilt card.

[@priestesslucy3299]

​​@@_iErik you would think Bilt would come up with some kind of incentive to get customers to use their card primarily.

[@salukiconvert]

hey Ankur needed to fund the Egyptian Pyramid wedding somehow. mission accomplished 🍝

[@HughJones-t2p]

This is extremely well thought out and researched. Well done Sebby.

[@SpencerJohnsonOfficial]

🍝 As with every powerful card, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. However, I've felt like Bilt has been in a sweet spot where without a welcome offer, the card isn't quite "too good to be true". Then again though, it wouldn't shock me at all if they add an annual fee or something similar with all of the benefits they keep adding every month. Time will tell, but for now, I'm gonna enjoy it!

[@SolidLiquidFox]

I never went for Bilt due to its Wells Fargo connection. Not to mention the way everyone was in love with this card and pushing it was off-putting. Now here we are.

[@tigerrx7]

You missed out on a couple flights from all the housing points

[@SolidLiquidFox]

@tigerrx7 many other plays from many other cards out there...

[@1992Co]

I got a round trip to Kauai last year and almost enough to go again this year! Strictly off rent which I would have otherwise paid via bank cash! 😅

[@ycleped]

Sounds like you missed out on 10+ roundtrip domestic flights in economy, booking AA with AS

[@Brianpeckin]

​@@tigerrx7 Housing? A lot to pay rent plus not worth when you can just chase welcome bonus with rent and be more valuable than some points. Card is useless for ppl that point chased anyways

[@Sivic50]

🍝 I love the diversity of your channel! You do such great deep dives for topics I find interesting but wouldn't consider searching out otherwise. Good stuff, Sebby!

[@AskSebby]

Thank you! :)

[@carlitto1998]

🍝 Super insightful video with exchanges with Ankur, thank you for that! BILT is by far my favorite card in my wallet, mainly because points are so valuable and BCS of the crazy conversion rates with partners. That said, any chance someone can explain Ankur's point nb 4? How is it possible that using other cards like V/M/A is most of BILT's business? Why would they share profits with BILT on swipe fees for restaurants or rents? Seems counterintuitive. Thank you!!!

[@ozymandias_times9663]

I literally signed up for this card 4 days ago

[@docsays]

I read that article. I bet it is going to change in the near future

[@AskSebby]

Agree. Like with all new cards, enjoy the benefits before they end!

[@treasurehunter1713]

TY for your great content! Off topic...What mic system and camera do you use when you travel?🍝

[@Lifeissorich.]

🍝 sorry about the Mavs. Bilt will probably stick around because they have the rental portal outside of the card. Just got the Altitude Connect Business pretty good 75k offer with 6 months to reach 6k spend. Have a good week y'all.

[@djmusiq]

I love having BILT, but I can understand if WF no longer likes the partnership. I connected BILT to my checking account so that they take the money from my account and mail my landlord a monthly check. I also use the card everyday on the NYC subway (to meet the 5x's per month usage rule). So, WF makes no money from a customer like me. I also have the Apple Card and Goldman Sachs makes no money from that partnership either. Credit card companies only like when you carry large balances and owe them finance charges. Otherwise, they complain.

[@cutbertoviramontes4003]

For the five transactions a month requirement you can also do $1 reloads to your apple account. That’s what I’ve been doing since amazon raised the minimum to $5

[@livingonaplane]

Saw it coming

[@HobbitHobbit]

Bilt and Pasta...are you hinting that Wells Fargo is going to invest in Olive Garden? :)

[@AskSebby]

🍝

[@sirfriendzone1228]

Bilt already has a tier program for amount of spend. I was actually thinking about this before the report came out but they should change that program into an annual fee card program. 🍝

[@samvilms]

In my opinion, no, BILT as a concept will not be profitable. They are forgetting that young people like to flex, and a BILT card is not a flex 😂amex plat or gold is.

[@JonWyattMedia]

🍝 Signed up for the card on Tuesday (just before the video was posted). The AA transfer mention is still in the welcome kit 😒

[@chrisoverbey5937]

That’s an interesting look under the hood at how these businesses operate 🍝

[@sophiapan22]

🍝 I am fine with requiring more swipes per month.

[@peterg7302]

Although I haven't used this yet, BILT is the only nonaffiliated card that transfers to Alaska Airlines, which has great partner redemptions. Also, less valuable but also unique, AA.

[@sydguitar99]

That's why I can't trust these fintech companies. They Go just as fast as they come

[@somedudeonyoutoob]

sebby, can you do a video on bilts current transfer promotion with alaska airlines and tell us if its worth it. im a frequent traveler to asia and wondering if alaska airlines is a good promotion to hop in. also, do the points expire after u transfer? please thanks

[@henryjiang3159]

The big problem with Bilt is their credit limit, Their Credit Limit is about on average 5-7 times less than Chase, also for spending on rent, there are few room left for everyday spending, which banks can be profited on, not mentioning more likely of carrying a balance.

[@ONEPRINCESSHERE]

Thank you for this vid! I was only considering getting the Bilt card for rent but the card isn’t for me. My landlord will charge me 2.99% for each transaction for using the card, that’s an add’l $60 I’ll have to pay on top of rent every month and then the 5 swipes required to see the benefits is already killing me in my head! I use my Amex blue cash preferred card for every day use only because I’m ok with cash back for now but the gold card is my next card to get to use for points and even better benefits from what I have now.

[@djmusiq]

You only get charged a fee if you use the actual credit on the card to pay rent -- but you don't have to do that. I pay my rent by linking Bilt to my checking account. They take the money out of my account, pay my rent via a check to my landlord every month, then give me the points. I also meet the 5x's usage per month by using the card to access the NYC subway (automatically on my Apple Watch). Those are basically free points with no risk.

[@MK7Justin]

I can see them upping the minimum monthly transaction to collect more interchange fees and keeps the card in the wallet longer per month

[@shawn.credit]

Bilt cards will most likely be turned into Active Cash or Autograph cards. The Bilt card had purpose just wasn't profitable enough for WF, will be interesting where they go with it.

[@this-is-big-john]

Probably wont happen because its a mastercard not visa like the active cash and autograph Probably get product changed to the Attune card because that is a mastercard

[@shawn.credit]

@@this-is-big-johnWF Propel cards were switched to Active Cash or Autograph cards and it was an Amex.

[@casek19]

🍝 I wouldn’t mind if they increase the number of swipes per month

[@boquii]

Great analysis! I am happy my card , I would not mind annual fee + coupon book

[@jeremycain2491]

🍝 I think it will eventually work itself out. BILT is not going to let Wells do them as a card issuer unless they have another lined up. That would be a catastrophic failure in BILT leadership since their valuation would be (presumably) significantly impacted. I believe that they renegotiate at our well before contract end date to make it worth more for Wells - likely multiple levers (interchange fees + sign up bonus).

[@_iErik]

I wonder how much longer Wells Fargo’s Autograph and Attune cards are going to last without nerfing, as well as how much longer Bilt’s card will last. Many companies are willing to pay customer acquisition cost for a while, but eventually somebody is going to expect to see profits…

[@jvermette09]

The comp to chase is no a very good one. Chase lost money on marketing spend (intro bonus) but WF is losing money on an ongoing basis, that customer will never become profitable

[@biffy7]

🍝 Serb giving Built & WF a Master Class.

[@targetdecoy]

🍝 i've been avoiding the bilt card because i dont like wells fargo, but the wsj article might actually convince me to apply

[@sheilaa1333]

Ha! Was listening to this while I was making 🍝😂

[@AskSebby]

Nice! 🍝

[@FroisonControl]

slap in a 0% 6 mo APR period to get people to carry a balance and fuck over consumers.

[@Emmanuel-s9w9x]

Just make the 1x on everything into 2x on everything and problem solved. If Wells Fargo wants people to use this card everyday then make it an everyday day card lol.

[@johnwick860]

Bilt is the new "WeWork"

[@Cryptid71]

I have a better idea why don't you have it earn 2x points on everything else? So you get one X on your rent and then two X on everything else. And get rid of any another bonuses. Think about how many people use the Capital One venture card All they get is 2x on everything. Imagine if you added one X on your rent. That would make b i l t the largest card ever

[@akiyamayusuke]

The guy at Wells Fargo who claimed 50%-75% will carry balances gotta be the dumbest business analyst in history.

[@pkris2237]

Thanks for going beyond title and looking at the case from different lenses

[@louisbrill891]

How would they assume that 1/2 to 3/4 of dollars spent would be carried month to month? Do people actually use cards that way?

[@soapa4279]

Expect an AF or more requirements to continue using Bilt

[@moneyteam1333]

It’s all of those influencers no one has ever heard of that they’re paying on rent day.

[@raulg19]

BLT should market more towards the people that don't pay off their card every month. Sorry NOT sorry!

[@RSquared-travel-rewards]

I'm still very bullish on the BILT card for more than rent. I use it as my primary dining card and as my catch-all card.

[@sanz1996_]

If current contracts end in 2029 why i am watching this video

[@MattClausen]

🍝 one thing that could work without h going to an AF could be Bilt and Wells setting a sliding scale of either points or minimum spend based on Bilt Status where Blue takes a haircut on points or has a higher minimum spend and Platinum either pays out more points or has significantly lower spend as status shows they’re using the card. Instead of minimum spend could swap to swipes so Blue has 20-30 and Platinum has 5…just a thought

[@Ron-qe4ul]

🍝 I think if they can get creative with the multipliers (without raising the af) people may use the card more.

[@sunshinecycling]

It doesn't help that there are endless stories of getting ridiculously low credit limits...$2,500 is a pretty common starting point for many. Your rent would eat up most of that without Bilt Protect. So if you wanted someone to have 65% use of non-rent, you would have to use Bilt Protect, then spend a bunch, pay off the balance mid-month, and then spend some more and pay off the balance again before the statement balance so as not to have too high of a utilization rate. Wells did it to themselves.

[@nickbachman663]

Apparently if you are worried about utilization you can connect the card to a checking account to make the payment and still get the 1%.

[@TravelBloggerBuzz]

I will comment on this in my next post this Friday. I wonder how many signed up for this card since the WSJ story broke and of course after Bit's CEO found the time to reply, I mean, keep the PR going....Heck, at $200 a pop and 0.8% payments coming from WF for every app and rent payment, I mean, I would keep this "shocking" deal in the face of everyone, milk it baby. As Bilt has done brilliantly taking WF to the cleaners...at $120 million/year LOL. This is not a CSR card type you guys. I just wish Bilt gave up some of the loot and gave it back to us via SUB bonuses. But then again, wining and dining bloggers on private islands is way cheaper for Bilt

[@blitzsama]

I see bilt ads for a lot of expensive ass apartments in seattle. I think it’s a good idea. Probably even better to do it in rural area apartments

[@densnow4816]

Seems strange WF is pleading poverty so soon on this deal. As one of the 70% of Bilt holders new to WF, why not just market more to those new customers?

[@JoeMacStevens]

I hate to see the review of the exec who pushed this deal for Wells Fargo.

[@samangh84]

10m per month is nothing for a such large program

[@looseycanon]

You know, what I'd like to know? What is the distribution of customers, that own a Bilt MasterCard based on the number of cards they have and which card is that Bilt... Cause, I don't really see much way of differentiating itself from the competition... particularly if majority of people who carry it already have multiple credit cards with multiple banks. Maybe it would be better to create a new Bilt card, that would be annual fee and companion card to current Bilt Mastercard and have carrying and offering current Bilt MasterCard as condition to gaining access to this new card (setting up a future Bilt trifecta perhaps?). Particularly if the second card were a Visa (had trouble paying in small shops in Netherlands with my World Elite card and I'm MC heavy). To have banks carry current Bilt MasterCard as a loss leader and recoup losses elsewhere in the ecosystem.

[@ret4kind]

Wells Fargo is lying. They only said that so other banks don't enter such a lucrative market. "It's costing the bank dearly." 😄 🤣 The poor banks getting 10:1 returns, what will they do?!

[@jonathanlosa399]

As much as I hate coupon books, I think adding credits could be a decent long term play. Bilt could add partner credits that the partner would subsidize (the amex model). Consumers would then need to add a few extra swipes per month to utilize those credits, which increases transaction fee revenue. Wells is happy because they continue customer acquisition while adding some extra swipe fee money. Partners are happy because they get some extra marketing and customer acquisition, as well as incremental spend, from their credits on the Bilt card. Bilt is happy because all of this cost them almost nothing, and they get to carry on making money and growing their brand.

[@tripjj8662]

How are you guys paying your rent on here though? I only have a 1500 limit and max it out before I have a chance to make 5 smaller purchases

[@thejatomis]

The other achiiles heel of this card was that if im using this card on rent, I will only use it for trusted vendors. Using it for gas stations and restaurants puts it at risk for skimming and that is not acceptable if im using the liquidity for something as important as rent.

[@TheSonyExperience]

very interesting

[@AskSebby]

👀

[@bmolale081]

🍝 Question: I’m new to the points game. My first points card was through my credit union, Bilt is my second. My goal is to use points for travel (Hawaii and other warm locations, traveling from the SF Bay Area, think Cabo, Caribbean, Central America, etc) and am considering an annual fee card. I use Bilt for every day spend currently. Any suggestions on which video of yours to watch to help me choose? (Or any direct recommendations?)

[@jeffbrown773]

🍝 I have a bunch of cards (~12). I actively use 2. I prefer to stay in the Chase ecosystem. Its been about a year since I applied for a card, and that was a Citi. We want to go France next summer so I applied for a British Airesys card. I received the, we need further research message. I have $10k on 1 card, that will be paid off this year, a salary well over 6 digits, and great credit. How do I apply for cards without having to fight the reconsideration line each time? Thanks

[@yurig2530]

Jain is lying. They are losing money on rent payments, since they need to pay for points at least 1cpp, they get 0.8% from WF. The rest of spend is mostly in 3x category, minimum 2x. Interchange fee is 2.2%. If it's 2x, then they pay 2%, they are only earning 0.2%, and they also need to pay to MC. There is no way they can earn any money. Neighborhood spend is just restaurants, from dining rewards, and some upscale gyms. No way Bilt is profitable.

[@kyle.thinks]

🍝 I knew they had to be losing money with the 6k points they’re handing me every month (paying rent for a whole household in the bay) 😂

[@TRUBLOO]

🍝, I feel that BILT should have an annual fee of at least $65 and a minimum of 8 swipe or times per calendar month (that’s twice a week) also collaborate with Fast Food Chains for 3X points ie: Wendys, Popeyes, KFC etc. Companies that don’t have rewards

[@bethearl8686]

Playing the credit card rebate game is impossible unless you are Quicken proficient. Once you get up to speed you can rake in the rebates. Bilt is just the most recent. I have 13 cards.

[@zacharybohlman4069]

Bilt was always such an overhyped card anyway.

[@tbird2006]

Just increase,the number of non rent transactions required. Problem solved (mostly).

[@EthanCowlbeck]

🍝 I’d rather have an AF than have to increase swipes. If the average card holder is savvy, I don’t think they’ll see it as abrasive either and would feel the same

[@scrambledmandible]

Imagine using a credit card

[@Love2Cruise]

BoA’s crap UI is recognizable by anyone who has used it in the last 20 years. It hasn’t changed in that time!

[@JazzyMarineVet]

Minimum swipes is a good idea. My little credit union does that for our card- 25 swipes a month = 15% more rewards or something like that. I dont use the card anymore after I got the SUB, but I do get emails reminding me to swipe to WIN😗🤭

[@Frederico.Huguenin]

Just make it 10 charges instead of 5 every month.

[@jimmyjames6492]

🍝🍝🍝

[@EatonZ26]

I just got email from my apartment that all credit card payments from bilt will now have 3.1% fee.

[@bethearl8686]

With so many great cards out there, I would cancel Bilt if it changes its terms. It would be a pain to change all those little $5 revolving charges but the way I spend, it's worth it.

[@drewbny78]

Sounds like the party is ending..guess it's time to transfer out the points

[@jyflum]

what ever happen to Hawaiian airlines? They disappeared off the app.

[@parkour267]

Wow 2029. That’s lengthy for a massive loss haha

[@kennylin1850]

There is a reason why BOA or Chase didn't jump into the rent game.

[@DavePolo1]

BOA lol but their Merrill Lynch interface is pretty nice.

[@callmeNeno]

I am tired of these too good to be true Fintech companies credit cards.