The Evolutionary Psychology Of Human Morality - Rob Kurzban

[@ChrisWillx]

Hello you savages. Get access to every episode 10 hours before KZbin by subscribing for free on Spotify - spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - apple.co/2MNqIgw Here's the timestamps: 00:00 Evolutionary Psychology of Abortion Policy 11:00 Why This is a Good Example of Human Morals 17:15 Why We Don’t Deviate From Our Tribal Line 21:54 The Psychology of Campus Protests 29:36 Evolutionary Origin of Morality 38:24 When Morality Gets Weaponised 46:38 Can Morality Be Done Well? 54:39 We Can’t Agree on What is True Anymore 1:06:37 Learnings From Studying Hypocrisy 1:11:39 The Equation of Bullying 1:17:09 Why Attacks on Reputation Are So Sticky 1:29:17 Toothlessness of Hypocrisy Accusations 1:38:32 Using Wisdom to Overcome Biology 1:43:12 Where to Find Rob

[@kungfujoe2136]

wtf is he talking about the social contract is dead that's why there's nothing to be gained by being moral everyone wants to hide in a group everyone wants to have their cake and eat it 2

[@juricadogan3870]

"What do you think about abortion" is always a good conversation starter.

[@cassiewatson6308]

😂

[@albertlevins9191]

This man has mastered the cold opening. Mastered. The first 30 seconds matter. For Chris it is usually him saying something that would blow the socks off a normal person. Dude knows his audience.

[@vanessac1965]

It's my preferred pick up line

[@spencersivco8503]

My reaction was "Oh, Jesus Christ" 😂

[@ChrisWillx]

@@vanessac1965 this has killed me 😂

[@KingRyanoles]

Paraphrasing Taleb, a villian makes someone else own the downsides of their actions; a good person owns the downside of their own actions. A hero voluntarily owns the downside of someone else's actions.

[@Reallgeemachine]

Who is it that owns the downsides of all of humanities actions? We are all human, we all have temptations to do evil. We are all accountable for our evil, and when society stops holding people accountable you get collapse.

[@JohnBoehr]

This only applies if the action for which there was a downside was done in good faith. Otherwise you are just enabling defectors.

[@sharaguzzetta9504]

Most people do not adopt conscious principles. They generally adopt the principles of their culture and parents and when these run up against self interest, self interest wins. Sense and Sensibility by Jane Austin has a great example of this. The brother had an obligation to “care for” his half-sisters and as the story progresses he (at the prompting of his wife) defines this further and further down. However, I don’t think I am convinced by this research. Specifically with abortion I would like to see a breakout between married and unmarried mothers and married women with and without children. Often the difference between people who support and do not support abortion is the humanity of the baby. The “fetus” is a very different thing to a woman who has carried a baby to term.

[@grannyannie2948]

Having babies didn't change my opinion that a fetus (little person) is a baby. I have never met a person who does not believe that a fetus is a baby. Abortion is legal in my country but everyone believes it's murder.

[@alt5494]

Irrational fear is also a significant driver behind abortion rights. Multiple lesbian friends believed that a majority of men either had or would commit SA.

[@whenpigsfly8178]

And did their sexuality form because of those beliefs, since women tend to be more sexual-orientation-flexible vs men?

[@mekbebtamrat817]

Interesting that they tend to abuse one another, physically and sexually, far more than men would look their way. Cheaters fear cheated on, and in their case....

[@TimBitts649]

Why would those women believe that? Guess: I watched some Erin Pizzey videos. Patron Saint of the Men's Rights Movement, in her 80s now, former Brit feminist, founded the first shelter for women. She said most of the founders of 2nd Wave F had horrific personal stories of abuse, by men. Many turned to women as comfort, for their trauma. Irrational? No.

[@aaronsmithjr.5505]

As a young male with a deep appreciation of moral code and a boldness to understand right from wrong, I found this podcast fascinating. It continues to intrigue me that there is a whole class of human beings that do not believe in evil or holiness, but instead choose to believe in the grey of complex life.

[@hal_0017]

Well, maybe bc life is complex. Not so much black and white. It's important to have standards however if you look at the justice system it's not quite straightforward

[@vagabondcaleb8915]

If morality was simply about being in the winning majority, no one would feel guilt for things they've "gotten away with". 32:00

[@three_owl_night]

Maybe because humans are complex creatures, and we have empathy, which I would describe as unique ability to imagine and subsequently feel what others feel. It is an interesting exercise to ask oneself why they feel quilt in any situation, and then continue asking until you get to the root. I would bet that these days there will be groups of people who yet wouldn't feel the same quilt as someone else because they are capable of justifying someone else suffering and therefore feeling as if they belong into a "non-human" group. That's at least my own take on that.

[@robertmcclelland881]

Hey Chris, absolutely love the show and have been listening for the last three years or so. With that being said, I think Rob is in a bit of correlation/causation issue here with abortion. Obviously it's an insanely contentious topic, but a huge percentage of people who are anti-abortion truly believe that the operation ends an innocent life. They may also believe that protecting the classical understanding of marriage is important, but I don't believe there are actually a whole lot of people who are against abortion just to have an additional way of making sure their partner isn't cheating on them. Once again, love the show!

[@sarahahmad9891]

I was once very pro life, the idea of killing a baby was horrific to me and remains so. But after having 6 children and acquainting myself with the natural world and beyond, I understand that forcing an ideology on others does more damage than nearly anything else. There are many "pro lifers" with no real compassion for the living and little understanding of life. Security and indulgence are the whims of the simple minded. They are the roots of the values of the unenlightened. Many times, the principle that appears on the surface is held in place by fear of the darkness or unwillingness to relate to it.

[@mbmurphy777]

@@sarahahmad9891 well there’s enough pro-lifers that Support and have compassion that the adoption rate for newborns in the United States is 100%. In fact, I know several that, unable to get a newborn in the United States, adopted kids with birth defects from India and China.

[@grannyannie2948]

Exactly. My opinion on abortion didn't change when I got married. And it doesn't allow for the fact that people tend to marry people with similar core values.

[@YSFmemories]

@@sarahahmad9891 so letting people act like animals who only care about their hedonistic desires is good?

[@sarahahmad9891]

@@YSFmemories You are allowed to make all the callow judgments you desire. Your life is yours to live.

[@weebettyb]

I think it's interesting that Rob appeals to 'truth' and 'reason' as if these are objective moral standards when he makes a case for subjective morality. When women were trying to get the votes, banks backed them because two wages is better than. Does this mean women shouldn't get the vote? Rob talks about people's secret motivations but not about what is true. Is people's humanity intrinsic or gifted to them by the group? I would agree that many prolifers aren't purely prolifers (neither are prochoicers, most have limits on abortion). I would also say for hard-core prochoicers it is very easy to get them to agree infanticide is morally right. Regardless of what people's motivations are we should be thinking what is true.

[@YSFmemories]

Thats the entire point about pointing out the motivations... If you're motivated by selfish hedonism like western woke leftists, your stance cannot possibly be correct.

[@abableeah3070]

I don't think it's so much the case that motives for beliefs are impure. Instead, it's likely that the belief formation process is not perfectly truth-tracking.

[@beefybmw9532]

Women will conform to the majority of their friend group’s ideas to not get ostracized because that’s how women enact vengeance, is exclude people from their friend group. Men will stick to the things they like to do and find like-minded individuals to befriend and enjoy said things with because violence is how men exclude people from their friend group. Taking this into context regarding the majority of the beginning of the conversation makes one realize that social media has made pathological altruism how much more available weapon because it’s not just the people with an earshot that can hear it and feed it making the feminine way of exclusion much more prevalent and profitable in society. The fact that people are not getting hit in the mouth for saying something stupid is why people are more afraid of things than ever because they don’t realize that words don’t mean much, people lie, people say stupid things they don’t mean and words aren’t the end all be all of how bad confrontation can be. I could go off for hours on every single one of Chris’s talking points in this conversation and how the first paragraph can dictate the outcomes of what action will happen to the question at hand.

[@DaveShap]

"Sex is for making babies, but that's not why we do it!" Missing a lot of basic biology when talking about these things.

[@three_owl_night]

What is wrong with that statement exactly? Humans, as well as very few other species (bonobos is one example, but there are more) have sex for purposes other than procreation.

[@alelectric2767]

Chris now flying close to the sun with this one. Good luck!

[@belowzero2452]

Thank u ! V interesting thoughts well formulated !

[@tomspriggs9478]

We are in a social tug of war between morals and selfishness, and in these days selfishness is winning by a wide margin.

[@multi-florum]

Selfishness has always been winning by a wide margin. The world isn't any worse or better than it's ever been.

[@tomspriggs9478]

@@multi-florum Nonsense. There has always been an ebb and flow between positive and negative tendencies in both individuals and the polity. Denying that is a matter of laziness or a convenient excuse for bad behavior.

[@belowzero2452]

Mindfulness discussed from the beginning !

[@TimDeadmenVP]

Anthropologist can discuss a lot of these points about morality with way more clarity. Evolution shaped us to be kind and social animals relying on our intellect.

[@jamesbuchanan1913]

yeah David Graeber covered the evolution of interest norms in his book Debt: the first 5000 years.

[@skylinefever]

@@jamesbuchanan1913 His bullshit jobs book was a brilliant argument.

[@tomspriggs9478]

Then why is our current society run entirely on emotionalism today?

[@muundus7]

I was one of those people who attended to protests… and didn’t know anything about what was going on

[@mattanderson6672]

Thanks guys

[@BatchelderPatrick]

Go back to Philosophy 101 and study Descartes, Kant, Schopenhauer, et al. You're just reinventing the wheel.

[@Surreal616]

I wonder what the story is about the picture in the background. Its positioning makes me think it’s relevant to Rob’s life.

[@mbmurphy777]

Social science statistics are so unreliable, and the interpretations are mostly ad hoc.

[@juhel5531]

Hypocrisy is a toothless accusation because everyone instinctively wants everyone else to favor them and that is inherently unfair and hypocritical. You'd have to prove that someone's hypocrisy is in favor of someone else and therefore against their self interest before hypocrisy becomes a strong accusation.

[@jamesapra4135]

Humanity: motivated by greed, controlled by fear.

[@elinope4745]

Eugenics can be talked around and the public doesn't necessarily call every form of eugenics. But eugenics still occurs unless people are randomly paired with each other. Abortion is one method of eugenics.

[@skylinefever]

What people refuse to face is that there can be voluntary and involuntary eugenics. Whenever the dirty e word is mentioned, people can only think of 1920s America or 1930s Germany.

[@grannyannie2948]

In the case of the Salem witches, British and American witches were never burned at the stake, but it was very much a case of follow the money.

[@MorningClarity]

Ask what's better for society, rather than just you, right NOW! 😉

[@beingsshepherd]

_"My own suicide."_

[@BadMedizin]

He shouldn't of speed read Kant, he would of came off like he knew what he was talking about.

[@killermonjero]

Have, not of.

[@thatomofolo452]

Safe the babies 👶

[@beingsshepherd]

Shun the military.

[@skylinefever]

Communist Romania did that really well.

[@YSFmemories]

Wait, why is this seen as a shocking revelation? Isn't it immediately obvious? Thats why so many young women with no moral virtue vehemently attack pro life. Its because they dont want to take responsibility. Can it be more obvious?

[@grannyannie2948]

Well said

[@three_owl_night]

It is a bit more than that. When you have a boogie man that is quite real (abortion absolutists, most ultra-religious conservatives) you would want for something that you might not entirely agree but which is still better than the alternative. Outside of vocal minority, most people think abortion should be legal during the first trimester.

[@grannyannie2948]

@@three_owl_night It's also a human rights issue and abortion absolutists as you say, do not like the abuses continuing. By the same metric when most people in the US agreed with slavery, it would have been wrong for anyone to want to abolish the practice, and yet on this, you do not think anyone should have an opinion different to yours. And ofcourse no mention of personal responsibility.

[@beatitudespeople]

Does this monogamy/power argument hold up when abortion in the ancient world is included in the data set? Hippocrates wrote about how to induce spontaneous abortion, and infanticide by exposure was enduringly the norm until the rise of Christendom. Is it possible we’re reading Foucault into the interpretation of the data?

[@YSFmemories]

The reality is that one side is motivated by self interest and the other side is motivated by goodness. This person is simply motiviated to paint both sides as self interested in order to reduce the validity of people who actually do hold themselves to a higher standard.

[@grannyannie2948]

The ancient world was different because nobody separated sex from pregnancy. It is only in recent times that women seek sex without consequences. Christians and Israelites didn't practice exposure, or abortion, the Bible says that God hates it. So there have been moral differences for thousands of years.

[@reja1309]

Abortion has long been used as back-up contraception for those that can't be too bothered to manage their fertility. As long as a couple has access to abortion, they don't have to say "no" to sex. What will be telling is to see just how much the 'need' for abortion crashes in those states where it is heavily restricted and people know they don't have that get-out-of-jail-free card.

[@eloisesoleilkleingeld1236]

Great episode. Really interesting.

[@juhel5531]

Normal people are disgusted by sociopaths and narcissists but to an autist like me, normal people ARE sociopaths and narcissists. Imagine living life as a kid, seeing all of this BS and not having the ability to self deceive as well. Imagine the isolation and ostracization and feeliing that from your own viewpoint, eveyone is else is evil and there only logic is that it's always the way it's been, you need to adapt to the majority and that they need this to self preserve.

[@John-us2ns]

I feel like avoidant attachment and autism can go hand in hand. Thinking everyone else is the problem, being fearful of other peoples' weaknesses, lack of mental resourcefulness and ability to act in good faith with you

[@willjNZ]

Keep Your Powder Dry, an acumen for such terms as: relax, chill out, stay cool, don't get rattled, don't get so angry, think before you shoot your mouth of. And, the saying does indeed come from what the gentleman, who you are 'chatting' with, described! Powder dry, means the firing mechanism will more likely fire/initiate if dry, if wet, likely/definitely (almost) to fail. In some areas/arenas, especially, in my opinion, academia, the complication of facts/truths is intentionally contrived. It appears to me that a number of groups, sub-groups, sub-sets of sub-groups etc use confusion/contradiction as a way of driving, or controlling the moral, and/or social agenda, driving it in a direction that best reflects their thinking/lifestyles/politics. Ego, and pride, are brothers (or sisters) in arms, prick either, and pop, goes the weasel! The Academy, in my opinion, have no right, whatsoever, to claim the title of being part the Elite pie, when they, academia, have, in my opinion, surrendered 'inquiry' to 'group think,' and punish those, sometimes viciously, who dare to think/speak outside the proverbial square! When one particular political position/proposition/agenda rules, the pillars supporting/upholding free, and independent inquiry/thought begin to give way, with a potential for catastrophic collapse. We, those of us with inquisitive minds, the majority of us I suspect, have remained far to silent (except for the brave few) for far to long, both to our personal, and societal detriment. We risk all if we fail to stand up for free thought, and free speech. Tick, tick, tick goes an academy (clothed in political, and donor class cloth), that settles for thick! “Time and Tide wait for no man,” wrote Geoffrey Chaucer (English Poet/Writer - born circa, 1342/43 - died, 25 October, 1400), and time, in my opinion, is short, running out! If we fail to arrest the degradation, the hindrance of free, and open inquiry, that, in our recent past, was the hallmark of most Western institutions of learning, that is, until the zealots, the current gatekeepers, who now, controlling those same institutions, championing 'group think and speech' unimpinged, who, in my opinion, need to be peacefully removed, or redirected away from positions of power, so as to allow a longed for renaissance of both freedom of expression, and of thought to blossom. Should the status quo be allowed to continue, to thrive, to remain in place, academic freedom will remain a stale dream, an unrealised hope, sentencing today's, and future minds to a new dark age, where nothing goes, unless 'they,' the so called elite, in their combined insolence, say so! They waste our time, our age, in a never ending circle of agreement, and platitudes!

[@juhel5531]

"Wisdom comes hard... But it does come. Well. Call me wisdom because that's exactly what I'm gonna do to you tonight." - Chris Williamson trying to hit on someone at a night club... probably

[@cmottram26]

So Homer Simpson isn't the guest?

[@BadMedizin]

I was thinking this is Homer... DOH!

[@vital.elements]

1:41:48 "Humans can learn new stuff." 💥💯👍

[@scotchbarrel4429]

Its been awhile since ive truly enjpyed listening to a nuance conversation morality, this guy has a great way of explaining his ideas, good wprk mate 👊😎

[@dinosemr8141]

❤️💖🙏❤️💖

[@MGShadow1989]

I fell out with a cousin years ago because I thought he was more principled, then discovered he only votes for what directly impacts him - for example, when he was in uni he only voted for what directly impacted universities, but outside of university he stopped caring. It's akin to a darker comedian feeling bad about their old jokes, and criticising similar comedians - they got successful through it but others aren't allowed to, like Frankie Boyle for example, monumental hypocrite and coward. I don't use recreational drugs, I'm even reluctant to use paracetamol for a headache or whatever, and I absolutely hate junkies - however, I agree with decriminalising drugs out of principle. I'm single, I would benefit from supporting the more promiscuous lifestyle but I think it's unhealthy. I reluctantly accept abortion as necessary for things such a rape but I genuinely think someone is evil if they celebrate it, or say it's the best thing they done - holy shit go away, it should be the same emotional impact as a miscarriage.

[@YSFmemories]

Seriously. The kind of people who can call their own flesh and blood a "parasite" so that they can avoid taking responsibility for their own lack of self control... Such people are scarier than violent criminals.

[@three_owl_night]

Check how pilot program in Vancouver on decriminalizing drugs went. I understand the position you are coming from, and I am inclined to agree that some drugs (not hard ones) shouldn't be criminalized. But unfortunately, some ideas dont't withstand the reality test. Especially if they affect people around, which is true in case of allowing to carry hard drugs.

[@MGShadow1989]

@@three_owl_night - it can't work if you just decriminalise all drugs and that's it, leaving addicts to their own will power; there needs to be incentives. It worked in Portugal where recovering addicts were given jobs that were half covered by the government, it got them off the streets and by decriminalising them it disconnected it from crime. That said, I'm not fond of recreational drugs use and general party behaviour - wee bit of a story; I have an almost entirely clean lifestyle, such as an occasional glass of wine at dinner, hardest drugs I've ever consumed is mushrooms, once. I'm not particularly fit but I'm far from obese, and I don't smoke at all. I'm 35 just to add my age more context on this, and I'm oughly 2 months recovered from a stroke despite being very low risk of it - no clear cause, just a weird 'luck of the draw' moment. And yet, loads of people are significantly overweight, drink excessively, smoke a lot, regularly use drugs, the behaviour that makes strokes more likely but it never occurs. This makes me angry, a 'how dare they!' tone of anger and frustration - the mental aspect has been worse than the physical side. I still agree with decriminalising drugs in principle.

[@three_owl_night]

@@MGShadow1989 Yes, I agree that when paired with (mandatory) treatment and resources, decriminalization of drugs can work. Unfortunately, this is not what happened in Vancouver where I live. That is also kind of contrary to the worldview of the politicians/activists who advocate for decriminalization. They are usually in opposition to any sort of "stigma" which , in my opinion, is required; if you don't know/understand that something is bad, then what is the incentive to change? In principle, I am also in favor of more libertarian approach, where someone is free to make a choice that will be detrimental to them.

[@marlonmoncrieffe0728]

I am pro-choice but a 'safe, legal, and rare' moderate who is grossed out by people celebrating their past abortion(s) too. Maybe I wouldn't say it is evil but definitely distasteful.

[@BatchelderPatrick]

You guys ought ("ought" is a moral imperativre via Kant 😎) need to revist the Ten Commandments. You seem to be dancing around them: The proverbial elephant in the room. 😁

[@grannyannie2948]

I agree

[@skylinefever]

Thou shalt not lie unless it is about how marriage is awesome for everyone... My take on the Southern Baptist Convention. WWJD. But don't apply it to money changers.

[@three_owl_night]

I don't really see how with three out of ten commandments being about a dude in the sky helps or enriches that conversation.

[@andrewmartin6520]

​@@three_owl_night the point of them is to make choices that are not based on your own wants. Yes even the ones about a "dude in the sky". The result is making a moral choice even if it's to your detriment, because it is right.

[@three_owl_night]

@@andrewmartin6520 that is such a far stretch. And also the result of that wouldn't be what is right, but the fear of punishment from someone a person believes is real (or the desire to please same figure)

[@three_owl_night]

Just like Chris, I am fascinated with evolutionary biology, so this discussion is pure gold to me! Amazing conversation! On a side note, I think it is fair to assume that Modern Wisdom audience leans more on a conservative side, therefore it is interesting to see how little views (and likes) that conversation has in comparison to many other episodes. Seems like some (most likely, religious) people don't want to even look at the discussions about morality and evolution, as if its mere presence violates something sacral. Something to reflect on.

[@sarahahmad9891]

Most of us should agree that less abortions should occur. Criminilizing women in devastating situations instead of helping them keep their children or recover their health is inhumane. The solution is prevention and aid. We all know where babies come from and it takes two.

[@grannyannie2948]

Many charities and government welfare do this.

[@YSFmemories]

The solution is to teach people to be better moral people and take on responsibility rather than shouting freedom shamelessly

[@sarahahmad9891]

@@YSFmemories The children are all of our responsibility. The focus must be on the root of the problem, not the symptoms. The demand for abortion is a symptom. Women who do not want children should not be getting pregnant. Children should not be getting pregnant. Demanding responsibility and morality from only a few and stigmatizing people in need of help is counter intuitive.

[@sarahahmad9891]

@@grannyannie2948 Not at much as the privileged would like to believe. Welfare is stigmatized and difficult to obtain. Charities are rife with exploitation. I have seen it first hand. Maybe a few good ones exist, but I cannot name one. I can name hundreds of women who sought them out only to be dehumanized or turned away.

[@grannyannie2948]

@@sarahahmad9891 I'm in Australia so it may be different here. They have stopped the $6000 baby bonus paid to the mother immediately after giving birth now. Feminists didn't like it. I don't know of any stigma with welfare for one baby, if it's six it's a bit of a joke. And married women also get maternity leave.

[@endgamefond]

Chris, please invite guests that talk about women jealousy coz women have different game in mating strategy and just different in general in terms of survival game. i know you have covered this but please invite more guests that talk about women's games. thanks

[@brijay3009]

🥰🥰🥰

[@YSFmemories]

This guy is confusing morality with law and punishment while simultaneously taking his own moral stances as some sort of higher objective truth

[@showingpig01]

Oh? So how would you define morality?

[@YSFmemories]

@@showingpig01 the non contingent reason for action. Why do you do work? To make money. Why do you make money? To buy food and pay for housing etc. Why do you need those? To survive. Why do you need to survive? When you keep asking these questions, at the very end, the base layer of which all value evaluations are derived, that is morality. Morality isn't a tool to achieve some desired result. Morality IS the desired result for which all tools and actions are working towards.

[@PlaceboPlease]

Came to YT from spotify to point this out. His view of morality is too narrow to be accurate. Morality is about a lot more than being on the wrong end of a situation. .

[@HarryJoiner]

So basically, people will fire this arrow down range and draw the target around it.

[@ZimbaZumba]

Wtf did he say about the Gaza war?

[@VikingSummer]

🚨 Premium content 🚨

[@johnl5316]

what is said in the 1st 2 min seems true, obviously.

[@hoffyhenry4286]

20-25% of children in the U.S. live in food insecurity and the same people who claim to be pro-life regularly vote against giving them a free lunch at school, vote against head start, vote against childcare for working mothers and do nothing about the abysmal infant mortality rate, the kids murdered in school rate, or the kids lost on Epstein Island rate, and delight in putting kids in cages at the border, so it’s mind boggling that we even pretend this is a moral issue. We don’t care about children in the U.S. We care about control. The repeal of Roe was the backlash for me too.

[@Karenwilson-j5o]

Try teaching morality to the Islamist's

[@beingsshepherd]

And punctuation to the infidels.

[@cgarcia3964]

What scientific evidence supports the notion that women who support abortion are promiscuous? Have you had conversations with women who have undergone abortion? It is an event in a woman's life that is difficult to decide and one that will never be forgotten. Why is it always men who criticize women's bodily choices?

[@vulkanofnocturne]

"Why is it always men who criticize women's bodily choices?" This is dishonesty. The abortion debate is about a philosophical question, 'when does life begin?' Your comment is an attempt at circumventing that questioning. It is easier to appeal to peoples protective instincts for women than to argue the actual issue. Stop being a coward. Stop this dishonesty.

[@MGShadow1989]

As mentioned the abortion topic mostly revolves around a philosophical question, although some women do unironically celebrate their abortions and say they're the best decision they made - those who do this are highly promiscuous, and I'm critical of this behaviour because it's unhealthy; no distinction on gender, sleeping around isn't healthy. Two of my ex's have completely different mindsets. One has the mindset I just mentioned, celebratory, thinks it's just about freedom, bodily autonomy, doesn't acknowledge the philosophical aspect at all. The other needed to abort for medical reasons and was absolutely devastated. These two perspectives exist, to suggest all women who have aborted are sad about it is disingenuous.

[@beatitudespeople]

Women ascribe personhood to the fetuses they want and do not ascribe personhood to the ones they don’t. This sort of subjective taxonomy does not apply in any context but abortion. The philosophical question has moved from “when does life begin” to “when does personhood begin?”

[@tempsoda]

​@@beatitudespeoplethat's a good point, I'd never thought about it like that. It makes me wonder about the rate of abortions of women that already have children as opposed to women that have never had them.

[@MustbeTheBassest]

While the comments here are completely reasonable, they are missing out on one major component which is the life of the mother. Not just strictly life threatening, but also physiological and economic. Motherhood isn't a trivial thing.

[@livin2themusick]

🥰💌💋💋💋

[@thatomofolo452]

Many single mother's 2024 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

[@BatchelderPatrick]

What does this mean? I was a single father for 20 years. Does that "count?"

[@grannyannie2948]

Better than the feminist alternative

[@DavyCrockett31]

Interesting perspective on heroism. The examples that were laid out were fantastic and undeniable, in my opinion. With that being said, extrapolate that across decades into a society that truly has so few massive problems (no more slavery, no more Jim Crowe, etc.) it seems that clearly led to the virtue signaling that we see so prevalent now. Whether deliberate or not people are just looking for things to fight for, even if they’re not based in reality. Maybe? Idk I’m at a red light and it’s turning green now, gotta go

[@YSFmemories]

No, the virtue signaling is rationalizing away guilt. For example, im super lazy and back in college, i could leave garbage in my room for an entire year without cleaning the room. When my mom pesters me to clean it, i shout why do you care you dont even live here its my own room its my freedom to do what i want! Really, its just rationalizing away the guilt so that i can continue indulging in my hedonistic desire to be lazy. Such is the state of western culture today.

[@bettybray5366]

I don’t like this framing of being pro abortion rights being related to a promiscuous lifestyle. That’s incredibly small minded. I agree it’s mainly self-interest. The idea of being trapped by a pregnancy has always terrified me. I’ve never had any interest in a ‘promiscuous lifestyle’.

[@three_owl_night]

That seems like a contradiction to me, maybe you can elaborate more on your position. If you feel that you will be trapped by pregnancy, wouldn't that mean that you are having sex with someone you don't believe will be a good father?

[@bettybray5366]

@@three_owl_night No, I’ve been with the man that I married since I was 20, but I wanted to go to university and have a career. I had no interest in having children until I reached my 30s. Without some way to prevent having children, I would not be able to have some independence and a personal relationship.

[@three_owl_night]

@@bettybray5366 Considering the effects of abortion, I don't think it is reasonable to count it as a way "to prevent having children". 100 years ago - yes, but after the invention of the pill and other ways of contraception, both for males and females, that is no longer the excuse.

[@bettybray5366]

@@three_owl_night contraception isn’t 100% effective. I would suggest that the burden of having children weighs differently on you than it does on me. There’s a lot I’m willing to sacrifice for my children, but I wouldn’t have wanted to sacrifice my own dreams and ambitions, and the time I needed to grow into the person I am. I think I was lucky that I never had to make the choice myself, but I wouldn’t have not wanted to have the option. I also don’t have the philosophy that all life is sacrosanct. I believe it’s important and should be cherished, but is also a matter of luck, not destiny.

[@three_owl_night]

@@bettybray5366 I don't disagree with anything you wrote. I am pro-choice, but not an absolutist - I think abortions should be legal during the 1st trimester, with rare exceptions past that point. Sex has consequences, whether we like it or not; drawing the line at the end of the 1st trimester provides a compromise where a woman can make a decision in a situation where contraception failed - as you rightly pointed out, they are not 100% effective. I think abortion shouldn't be taken lightly, and I initially commented as I sensed that you equated abortion with contraception.

[@venchiho9705]

Talking about colleg protests without even saying the name Gaza is typical right wing coward bs

[@ilililil4320]

Your’e so overcomplicating something that’s much more simple: If I’m a woman, who gets pregnant when unplanned, I want to be able to choose. Yes, no, consult with partner/family etc…. And eventually decide wisely. It’s about the freedom to make the best choice, responsibly and having control over my life. The option of an abortion doesn’t mean that it will automatically be ‘yes’. Same as it shouldn’t change the sexlife style (promiscuous vs conservative). Poor education and false narratives are to be pointed at.

[@YSFmemories]

No. Thats like saying legalizing murder doesnt mean im going to go on a mass murder spree right away; its just about having the freedom and right to do so. No. The moment you make that argument, where you value your own selfish hedonistic desire over moral good, you're a bad person, plan and simple.

[@grannyannie2948]

You gave up that right when you engaged in actions that could result in pregnancy.

[@grannyannie2948]

​@@YSFmemoriesWell said

[@ilililil4320]

@@YSFmemories considering whether it's the best scenario for a potential child to be born in, thinking about not only my future but others involved - how's that selfish or hedonistic?

[@ilililil4320]

@@grannyannie2948 heterosexual sex is a bummer in that reality 😕

[@duraace2053]

Its hilarious reading all these triggered comments. Everyone lies to themselves about their motivations....

[@YSFmemories]

Or maybe selfish hedonists are projecting their own selfish motivations onto others in order to not feel responsibility/guilt or the need to become better people

[@kaydance7]

Also the best way to test the strength of people's morals would be to observe just how quickly some people's values would change were the shoe on the other foot & it were men that got pregnant. Not so pro life all of a sudden, how interesting? 🤣

[@kaydance7]

Yes why so many pro life take this position to try to control women (& men who are having more sex than them). Other people's promiscuity is a threat to them. It's not cause that actually give a shit about the unborn child. Well said. I've always seen through this BS.

[@claritylouise2347]

Get rid of cars before babys!

[@Hardrockmusicfan]

hypocracy is a toothless attack because it is a form of ad hominem attack on the individual, not the claim that they aren't able to live up to.

[@shifter1089]

This idea of "talking to people" is silly in this current reality. It's virtuous to express, though functionally, its defunct. Too many people want their logic to win. They don't want to get better. Getting better/growing is hard. Though, brute forcing your opinion is easy.

[@bobbyg309]

How many people at the protests have simply seen too many dead children on their timeline? Must they know about the history of the river Jordan to simply oppose that?

[@NumeroSystem]

Morality is simple. If it is consensual it is fine. If not, then not.

[@TimBitts649]

No, because there are hidden costs, that are disguised as a way of avoiding moral behavior. Naïve.

[@ZayaanAhmed1128]

So incest is fine if it is consensual?

[@NumeroSystem]

@@TimBitts649 Disguised hidden costs doesn't sound consensual to me.

[@stutterstudios4731]

Why is consent necessary? Nazi’s and Japan’s Unit 731 just exerted force over others to play out their sadistic fantasies

[@whenpigsfly8178]

If it is consensual, but you'll regret it in the long run and ruin things you'll later value, then maybe it isn't really fine and should be discouraged. And being discouraged doesn't mean to criminalise it, necessarily, it mostly means to lay out the case for not doing it and not approve of it, but not really to completely ostracise.