The F-16 is NOT the Best Dogfighter in DCS | You won't guess which one is!

[@Tabs_Original]

The F-16's ideal rate speed is more like 430 - 460 knots... in DCS! The degrees per second is the same (a bit lower technically but basically the same). I stated 500ish in the video, which isn't really possible for that long due to the pilot blacking out. Thank you to swghavoc for pointing it out in the comments! edit: The charts in this video are the AIRCRAFTS max ability. Just because the chart says it can rate at x degrees per second at 9g does not mean it is possible due to the pilot blacking out. If you dont have G-effect turned on you will be able to achieve a higher rate speed in every aircraft. This videos sole purpose is mythbusting the F-16's Rate turn performance. Not its ability in BVR or air to ground. The chart at 03:47 shows several jets degrees per second at specific fuel loads. You can see that if an F-16 has low fuel it will outrate anything if the opponents jet has a full tank of fuel. Unfortunately a lot of content creators freeze the fuel total low in their F-16, don't have G-effect turned on, and as a result believe the F-16 has the best rate turn performance. If you froze a Hornet's fuel at 1000 pounds and had no G-effect it would be the best 1 and 2 circle fighter by a comprehensive amount.

[@Galvatorrix]

It comes down to the pilot as well, trying to go in a constant circle will just get you beaten, you need to shake the dog behind you by doing evasions properly. You made great points

[@steve390gold]

You set up an offset 2 circle in your DCS video here. The f16 opponent screwed up by not correcting that offset. Why not directly fight GS you in an F18 and him in an F16 and test this theory of your out

[@LupusAries]

In Falcon it is supposedly aroudn 350-440 knots, so a range. In Falcon BMS according to the HFFM manual it is, for a Block 50 (Big Mouth Viper with GE F-110-129) with full internal fuel + 2 AIM9M + 2 AIM120 + ALQ131 aka the most likely configuration you'll have in combat. For a drag index of 38 and a Gross Weight of 28,670 lbs. At sea level it's 21.3 deg/s at 0.61 Mach. At 5,000 ft 19.7 deg/s at Mach 0.7. At 10,000 ft 18.1 deg/s at Mach 0.74. At 15,000 ft 16.7 deg/s at Mach 0.9. At 20,000 ft 15.2 deg/s at Mach 0.9. At 25,000 ft 13.8 deg/s at Mach 1.0 . At 30,000 ft 11.2 deg/s at Mach 1.08. At 35,000 ft 9.49 deg/s at Mach 1.03. At 40,000 ft 7.43 deg/s at Mach 1.05. At 45,000 ft 5.45 deg/s at Mach 5.75. Now, all the Falcon data is an estimate based on available source, but the interesting thing is the F-16A Block 15 reaches 23 deg/s with FUEL 100 % + 4 AIM9M + ALQ131 at sea level. Now that's with a drag index of 38 and Gross Weight 25,197 lbs. So about 2.7 deg/s for a 3,477 lb weight difference.

[@steve390gold]

@@LupusAries i hope.none of that info is classified....lol

[@LupusAries]

@@steve390gold Nah, the BMS guys are very careful about that, it's from a NASA report Afaik. Funnily originally the HFFM was cobbled together using publicly available engine Data from a GE F110 Viper and flight Performance data from a PW F100 Viper. Also the Viper is old, so most of what is interesting to foreign governments has probably been aquired already. I remember at the Buchenau LAN in 2013 and 2014 someone mentioned talking to the various air force guys and gals and how open they were to answering detail question about their aircraft. I think they were BAF IIRC. And the HFFM manuals has been out for over 10 years, so if someone had a problem with the data, something would've happened already. Edit: Just re-read the introduction of the HFFM manual again, and it's even older started in 2002-2003 by Raptor one using the YF-16 AB thrust and calculating everything based off that. There's some proper nerdy shit in there!

[@daikucoffee5316]

Congrats for settling an gaming argument without leaking classified documents.

[@Tabs_Original]

🤣

[@imadisappointment5815]

War thunder moment

[@traxxastrickstt8409]

wt moment

[@WhiteCollarCrimeDNB]

Warthunder Could Never

[@Rookieo7]

War thunder...

[@Lengthy_Lemon]

You just fought me in the DCS Dogfighters server tonight, and the great people in their discord server, after I came asking confused as to why the SU-27 was outrating me, directed me towards your channel. I find it incredibly funny that the person I was fighting made a video that literally explained my question without me even knowing it. Anyways, it was fun fighting you even though I did terribly haha. You're a cracked BFM pilot. Keep up the good work. (For reference I was callsign 141st | CPT "Crawfish" in DCS)

[@Tabs_Original]

That's amazing! This is my favorite comment ever!

[@LaggerYT1337]

@@Tabs_Original I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite comment on KZbin.

[@einarabelc5]

@@Tabs_Originalit’s called meaning. All of the sudden what you’re doing has closure and meaning.

[@tomejkol1]

we just have to wait until the f18c gets added to warthunder and actual documents get leaked

[@RW-zn8vy]

Or just look at the documents online right now

[@Youda00008]

@@RW-zn8vy Uhm, where?

[@RW-zn8vy]

@@Youda00008 google it, its public information

[@ArcherAC3]

​@@RW-zn8vySend link no virus pls

[@pogo1140]

@@Youda00008 The F/A-18c/d NATOPS is online, along with the E/M curves

[@LaTerata]

This has been bugging the hell out of me and i really appreciate you posting this. Ive always thought the f16 felt draggy and off and kept getting wrecked in dogfights, then i branched out to the M2000 and F18 and swore the FMs were leagues better, as was my subsequent enjoyment. While im a military pilot IRL, id never flown any if the mentioned platforms so i was hesitant to say for sure, but the viper always just seemed wrong to me in DCS

[@Tabs_Original]

I am glad my video is reaching the right people, and that it was helpful!

[@ArcherAC3]

Exactly. I got a massive ass whooping when joining DCS PvP dogfighting servers thinking I would be owning anything that flies like in Falcon BMS. Also, I'm fairly sure BMS does not uses any classified Military data to model its' much better flight performance, it actually uses a lot of NASA data and some different aerodynamic calculations. Wish DCS could also do that to make it more accurate.

[@pogo1140]

In flying the DCS F-16 and F/A-18C against each other, Mover mentioned that the F-16 FM was too draggy and slow to turn and accelerate. That in a clean Viper, he could not accelerate while nose down in a 5g turn, a maneuver he routinely did in the real jet with 2 Cap Aim-9's. In the same video both Gonky and Mover noted that the Hornet was accelerating in both level flight and in a climb faster than it should be. The nose pointing ability was fine but it seemed that the Hornet either had more thrust than it should or less drag than it should. Since then ED has patched the F-16 and while improved its still on the low end of what it's should be doing

[@hresvelgr7193]

@@pogo1140 The Hornet side depends on which variant they flew, since the DCS Hornet is of a relatively rare model with an improved engine but their statement on the F-16 is defintely spot on.

[@FlyingWithSpurts]

The other issue is that the F-16 in DCS is NOT the best rate fighter of the F-16s. We have the Block 50, which is near 3,000lb heaver than the Block 30. Why does that matter? being more than 10% heavier means it can pull less G for the same aerodynamic condition (speed, alt, AoA) as lift and drag will be the same. So even the F-16 Block 30 would out rate the DCS Block 50 by ~10%+ even if the FM was perfect. The Hornet, however, is the BEST rating model of the hornet of all time and represents less than 9% of all US Single Seat legacy Hornets. So any "real world" story of Vipers beating up on Hornets likely references Hornets that have 12%+ less thrust than the one we have in DCS.

[@MotoMarios]

I had a chat with a Lockheed Martin guy about this. He stated that in clean configurations the latest blocks are equal if not slightly lighter than the earlier blocks because of airframe structure optimization. He also stated that there is confusion about the weight of the aircraft because later blocks have more thrust therefore greater maximum operational weights which gives the fighter greater operational capability but if absolute dogfighting performance is of the interest, then you load them with the same amount of fuel and missiles and then the weights are about equal and then the later blocks far outperform the earlier ones because of the higher thrust.

[@Youda00008]

Can you link us some sources about the parameters of the F-16 versions, and F-18 versions? How did you find out the DCS Hornet is the best of the existing ones?

[@LuqmanHM]

i am sure you meant the C model Hornet that have the slightly higher thrust version of the F404 engine right?? both Gonky and Wombat said the C model with "bigger" F404 are the best flying among all hornet and super hornet

[@FlyingWithSpurts]

@@LuqmanHM less than 20% of the C models had the stronger motors

[@taip4n]

@@MotoMariosthat’s a nice anecdote! Maybe you’d like to share it in the ED forums since most people believe the block 50 is worse in turn performance than other blocks

[@_lime.]

The human factor is also not as relevant in DCS. The F-16 is designed with a reclined seat to reduce the effects of Gs on the pilot, and it's side stick to allow for easier control under high G. Both these factors make it much easier to fly in a sustained high G environment. It is still surprising to me that people don't realize how good the F-18 is in a dogfight. It was developed out of the same program as the F-16, albeit, one degree removed. YF-16 and YF-17 were both in competition for the USAF's lightweight fighter program. The YF-17's leading edge root extensions gave it insane high alpha performance, which was a pretty nice trait. In the end the USAF chose the YF-16. The Navy wanted the YF-17 but was told no. So they launched their own program. Lockheed submitted the YF-16 again and Northrop reworked the YF-17 to make it carrier ready (beefed it up, more range, payload, etc...) leading to the YF-18 concept. I think people are just so used to the big boy Super Hornet, which is very much built to be a bomb/missile truck, that they forget the legacy Hornet's dogfighting genes.

[@smash79]

Now I want you to fight GS in his F16 haha ! xD We've the theory, WE NEED PRATRICE. (cool video btw)

[@BenParkes-wz5bd]

Dude.... For real. That would be entertaining. I've been following GS since 2020.

[@Freediver_72]

Depends how he configs the aircraft….

[@hanswolfgangmercer]

I would really like to see this

[@obic123]

Lol DCS teamdeathmatch

[@potatosuc4950]

@@BenParkes-wz5bd No it wouldn't be, GS fakes his shit and makes the f16 win no matter what.

[@gruntlifex03x69]

Finally someone says it. F16 is my main jet and used it to learn bfm in dcs dogfighters. Looking at other videos saying f16 is the rate king, i would try the rate fight opponents and get smashed. I came to learn that you need to fly rhe f16 fast and use the vertical if youre going to have a chance against GOOD f18, tomcats and M2ks. Good video.

[@spinningsquare1325]

M2k and hornet cheater fake aoa

[@gruntlifex03x69]

@@spinningsquare1325 say what?

[@demods1]

@@gruntlifex03x69 he said the f16 is an absolute monster in the rate fight and all you have to do is get them to the deck

[@gruntlifex03x69]

@@demods1 ah ok. ill make sure to try that 😀

[@wildcat6134]

I believe it was the same with Spitfire vs Me109. The Spit was better above a certain speed.

[@Carlos27thFS]

The Viper in DCS has the nose authority of a semi-truck making a u-turn. It should be quick and snappy. The Viper is notorious for gloc'ing its pilots if theyre not careful on the initial pull.

[@AhSoul]

"The F-16 from Wish - the JF-17" - best line from a DCS video I can think of 🤣

[@Tabs_Original]

I'm glad someone found it funny!

[@FlyingTaurus]

Yeh i have spotted that too 😆👌. Having said that , i am no expert, just a player who enjoys trying everything in games i like . I found the JS17 to be a very agile jet , slightly more than a F16, thats just my opinion in DCS. 🧐

[@LyonPercival]

​@FlyingTaurus it's prolly filled with water cuz the funding for the fuel has been stolen by corrupt officers

[@sule.A]

Yea its a Chinese mig-21 pretending to be a f16 lol

[@Ahsan-q3t4l]

@@sule.A but it does good job at it

[@NoFear1979]

Owning the Hornet just increased even more in the feel good department. Thank you 😁 Nice video as well ✌️

[@Tabs_Original]

Thank you! It is a great all around jet!

[@justinvena7695]

f16 driver here. Definitely agree with the f18 and mirage. BUT the F18 is ridiculous - above 450 It can rate match or pull magical AOA to cut the circle. Below 450 it out rates and easily pulls lead. They need to fix the F16.

[@potatosuc]

The f-16 matches em charts pretty exactly, and someone found a hud footage of an f18 during an airshow with a known load out and fuel load, and the f18 actually underperformed in dcs

[@Demka03]

Growling sidewinder’s fans are gonna be mad

[@NoFear1979]

Probably yep 😅

[@Patrick-zr8tv]

Can confirm. I am absolutely furious.

[@triparadox.c]

I'm a big fan but I don't understand this. Why would they be mad? GS often said anything with "one of the most". I don't think I ever heard him say the "the most" clause.

[@Tyrannosauroidea]

Yep

[@Pantsir-S1M]

Fr

[@kinocorner976]

Ironic, since most F-16 pilots say the game model feels sluggish, and slow.

[@andreahighsides7756]

Classified documents or it didn’t happen

[@raikoafm702]

@@andreahighsides7756 You realize at a certain point classified documents become unclassified right? Here's the flight manual for a block 50.. info.publicintelligence.net/HAF-F16-Supplement.pdf

[@raikoafm702]

@@andreahighsides7756 Turn performance starts on page B8-31

[@conker4311]

We all know the harrier is the best dogfighter in DCS... dont be silly now :)

[@rightmusic_wrongplace]

Mig 21 :)

[@possumteeth1692]

A-10 :)

[@Sn0wb0i]

Spitifre :)

[@cyrillaville2367]

I-16 (best would be the eagle 2 but it's got no guns XD)

[@dct124]

Mustang 😅

[@demods1]

In all intents and purposes the constant lack of understanding or first hand experience from users in comments sections across multiple content creators is the most frustrating thing. When making a comment that simply states the lack of performance of the f16 in regards to more superior aircraft in dcs you always get a response that is truly just entirely based on completely false information. Hopefully this gives some an insight into how people should give things a crack themselves before believing entirely what someone has designed for the purpose of online content.

[@Tabs_Original]

Well said!

[@tacticaltoolbox7046]

I just figured I couldn't fly the 16 right. That is still likely the case.

[@Tabs_Original]

@tacticaltoolbox7046 their are people that are great in the F-16! It just requires more skill and patience to be effective compared to the F/A-18

[@KubaSubaru]

I often Dogfight with my friend, Me in a MiG-29 and he is in the F-16, this is more useful to me that you can imagine. Thanks!

[@swghavoc]

Although I am a F/A-18C lover, the typical argument for the Falcon is stated at 430kts - 460kts not 500kts. The hornet's optimal speed is 330kts to 360kts. If the Falcon is moving at speeds above 460kts its circle will leave room for the hornet, traveling at optimal speed, to get inside the Falcon's circle. Conversely, the hornet pilot will have its work cut out for him if the Falcon reaches its optimal profile first. The pilot who can get into the best flight profile first gets the advantage. Go five rounds in a hornet against Growling Sidewinder to confirm. Then switch up and go five more in the Falcon. My bet is the Falcon will be challenging to keep from going ballistic in short order. In the DCS context, the plane loves to go fast, and assuming both pilots only turn the corner. No two circles offset you sneaky Hornet Pilots!

[@Tabs_Original]

Thank you for pointing out the blacking out part! The pilot would absolutely black out at 500knots eventually, I will pin a comment thanking you! The Hornets ideal speed is 380 to 420 at the 5 minutes of afterburning fuel total. Though most players will sit at 380 to 400 i feel. Due to the smaller circle, less g-loc management and very minimal degree per second penalty compared to 420knots. The best F-16 BFM guys in DCS don't come close to matching the best F/A-18 BFM pilots though. a 3 degree per second worse rate speed, coupled with significantly worse 1 circle performance, the 16 doesn't really stand a chance against a hornet or mirage 2000C (provided both pilots are equal).

[@Sky_King7]

I’m cringing so hard that you’re calling it a falcon.

[@Hornet135]

@@Sky_King7 why

[@diobrando2575]

@@Sky_King7 Why? The F-16's official nickname is Fighting Falcon, and no matter how much pilots may call it the Viper, it will always be the Fighting Falcon. Plus Falcon fits better with the naming scheme of the Eagle and Raptor, and there's already a US aircraft with the OFFICAL nickname of Viper, the AH-1Z.

[@Sky_King7]

@@diobrando2575your military catalog can call it a falcon all it wants. Myself and those that actually fly it will call it a viper, thank you.

[@seancummings7788]

Yep this has been the case for some time now. Wags mentioned they may put a server side penalty for F-18 drivers who use the paddle switch by causing damage to the plane. Also they mentioned more FM work on the F16 but so far it looks minimal. What kinda interesting is BMS has a great FM based on NASA data even for the various blocks so I'm not sure why ED can't come close. Also onset is still an issue when pulling 9gs. They should fix it. If they can update the F-18 there is no reason they can't fix the F16

[@Tabs_Original]

Yeah, i have known about it for a while, but I wasn't youtube literate enough to explain it until recently. I just want more people aware of the 16s actual pperformance. I haven't seen wags video, i need to check it out!

[@seancummings7788]

@@Tabs_Original Yeah it was during one of the CW Lemoine yourtuve interviews. Wags knew about it. They did some slight updates to the viper and CW flew it again and said it was much better. CW is a former F-16 pilot if you're unfamiliar. I do hope they continue to refine it like they did with the F-18. I had no idea it was that much worse than the F-18. Thanks for doing the numbers

[@Tabs_Original]

@seancummings7788 i have a few of CW's videos, i just showed the number the graphs were created by dcs dogfighters discord member called contact light. There is a link to more graphs in the description if you're interested

[@agamemnonn1]

ED has always been more concerned with “bells and whistles” first instead of concentrating on having functions game. Look at BMS: they concentrated on the flight model first before making sure the external lights blinked at the correct interval. Also looks at Gunner Heat PC: they opted for a functional gameplay experience first instead of modeling tank interiors first.

[@Youda00008]

They have updated the F-16 flight model many times, it cannot get any closer to the public data than it already is. However i don't remember the F-18 having any adjustments ever since release.

[@Globalnet626]

There is a video out there that compares the performance of the f16 in DCS, BMS and real world HUD footage. No surprise the BMS implementation is way closer

[@Tabs_Original]

I want to watch this video!

[@mrpawno4955]

iirc that vid is very old and shows the initial dcs f16. If you compare them now theyre like identical

[@Globalnet626]

@@mrpawno4955 It is about 5 months old

[@Globalnet626]

​@@Tabs_Original kzbin.info/www/bejne/qoeZnJyAir99gbc

[@Globalnet626]

@@Tabs_Original I think i can't just post actual links but you can look for them under the channel Aviation Plus in youtube. There are two videos, one from 5 months ago and one from 7 months ago. One is a rudder test and the other is a knife edge test

[@camelion.4791]

Thanks, I'm flying DCS F-16 such a long time and couldn't figure out why I'm mostly lose against a F-18 in a rate fight without much maneuvering. I know rate isn't all but i always thought I'm to stupid to be on the right speed. Exactly that chat massage could be mine. Nice Video

[@Tabs_Original]

If your DCS name ends in doo. It's your chat message.

[@camelion.4791]

@@Tabs_Original Then it isnt mine.

[@Mako2-1]

Facts we all need to accept: Viper and hornet have identical thrust/weight with the same load out and internal fuel F-16 rates well in real life because it can pull 9 g’s without “pulling the paddle” Hornet pulls less aoa in a rate fight at 9g’s than the viper because of its active trailing edge flaps thus less total drag fighting thrust. This last point is the difference maker since both planes can really only do around 10 g’s in dcs world with the same thrust to weight ratios.

[@doomdjyo5997]

This video is awesome!, also great to see the Jeff getting some love

[@Topper_Harley68]

The ac i fly the most. Very good multiroler.

[@RynerGT]

From what I have seen, the F14s with the flaps and slats open do 24° angle of attack. As the extreme example for literally breaking an aircraft for all of it's performance. (Source, after a lot of searching, was the "F14 Design Evolution" from PeninsulaSrsVideos, though the presenter is former Northrop Grumman VP Mike Ciminera. It's not the best source but it's probably close to that atleast)

[@BombShot]

I have no desire to play DCS, but something about watching what amounts to air based chess to the death is so fun. Good content and shots as well. It takes a lot of skill and intuition as an editor to make action and fighting this readable, especially to someone like me who gets lost easily.

[@Tabs_Original]

That is great to hear! Thank you!

[@murrethmedia]

1:48 Aw man, you jebaited me. I was like IT'S THE WARTHOG?!?

[@mplmpl7780]

Great video , also have you noticed the bugged jumping gun pipper. They really need to give the F16 some love.

[@Roofedhobo]

finally. a video to show to people instead of having to explain this to everyone over and over again

[@Neccronix]

Imagine being an f-16 pilot and getting yourself and your wingman shot down by an Mi-24 in the middle of a blizzard.

[@qwinnhilhorst131]

The pokemon skit had me in absolute fcking tears, quality stuff right there 😂

[@kularace7351]

It's a game and thats all there is to it. I was disappointed in the F-16 myself for a while but whe I jumped into the Hornet it became obvious how nerfed the Viper is compared to the Hornet in the game. I started listening to real world fighter pilots and how they had fought other airplanes, F-16 included, and airforces in exercises around the world and the F-16 took the win in almost every dog fight scenario. There's ONE key difference though. The F-16A was unbeatable. The F-16C is not because it was built much more for multirole as opposed to air superiority and maneuverability.

[@Santjo]

when you hear fighter pilots testiment, that can easily be scewed. one example, have you ever heard in any of these real world fighter pilots interviews any discussion on what the parameters are for their testimony? its almost always "me fight in f16 me win, the end" never any mention of what the circumstances were. for example most of these stories from f16 pilots are during weapons school where, when they set up dogfight training with hornets, due to f16 low fuel capacity hornets have to carry bags drastically for the f16 advantage since they meet the hornet almost clean while hornet is far from clean. this has a massive impact on jet performance number one, number two the drag incured by additional loadout on the hornet punishes the hornet far more than if you did the same for the f16 due to how much thrust the f16 enjoys im pretty sure there's wide consensus that the f16 block 30 (wide mouth f16 with the new engine but without the heavy avionics blocks) was the best performance wise f16 variant for BFM specifically

[@CrashCartwright]

@@Santjo I generally agree with you that each pilot will prefer whatever they've been flying, but I will add that on the "10% True" channel, I've seen two non-Viper pilots -- one Eagle pilot and one Hornet pilot -- say that the F-16 is one of their toughest fights. The Eagle driver commented on their maneuverability, and the (Legacy) Hornet pilot said his record against it is about 50/50. I believe those were in WVR fights only - BVR is probably a different story.

[@Santjo]

@@CrashCartwright something that is super interesting though. when you fight a f16 vs f18 in the configurations of like full internal fuel with 2 wing tanks + side winders vs an f16 with centerline bag plus sidewinders with pylons on and full fuel, in that scenario f16 vs f18 (in dcs) seems a lot more in line with all these testimonies. in other words, if you sort for all kinds of "training scenario requirements" like fuel tanks, like the predetarmined hard deck, it starts to swing heavily in the f18 direction

[@kularace7351]

​@@Santjo read what I wrote. I don't use F-16 pilots testiment as gospel. Hence why what pilots of other models says is more interesting. I am also very non biased. You aren't.

[@Santjo]

@@kularace7351 im assuming you're not a fighter pilot yourself. You say and I quote "when I jumped into the hornet it was obvious how nerfed the viper was" You would know this for a fact how? Do you have any data what so ever that points to the case that the viper fm is somehow tampered or altered from how it should perform? This is the problem. Theres 0 evidence, its all based on anecdotes without parameter control with no chance to crosscheck whether what they say is what we see or if they just happen to fight some doofus who isnt at the top of the game (irl). I have mad respect for real fighter pilots but they're human too, just because you made it to be a fighter pilot doesnt mean you're suddenly the best at every single aspect and BFM is not only super theoretically challenging but also very physically challenging.

[@LordNerfherder]

Dogfighting is an archaic metric to meassure the potency of a fighter jet. It's like meassuring length of sword on infantry to meassure the firepower of a mechanised infantry squad.

[@Hyziant]

I feel like I walked in on a heated argument that I have no context for and I love it

[@andresgarcia7757]

I need to understand why flankers where doing a full circle in 13 seconds at the Paris air show and on DCS it has one of the worst accelerations and my m not able to match the 13 second 360 turn.

[@kpsig]

Because US.

[@kyledelsan7024]

​@@kpsig really? because in war thunder (Russian game), it has a shittier FM than the f16 and f15.

[@jansatamme6521]

because under normal configurations it has an AoA limiter so you dont waste all of your energy in 13 seconds and get shit on by a fucking cesna

[@sule.A]

​@kyledelsan7024 warthunder and DCS world were originally Russian games before the "moved out"

[@kaisrae]

Probably SMs, maybe even 35s (or 37s?)

[@plaiskool64]

Excellent video! Was nice to see someone pointing facts with data and knowledges!

[@MrWarthog_]

I believe it. The amount of times I've been pelted by a hornet in a two circle fight is absolutely insane

[@kebman]

Epic! (I don't even play DCS but great vid none the less)

[@Tabs_Original]

Thank you that means a lot 🙂

[@kebman]

@@Tabs_Original No prob. I love flight and milsims, just don't have the time to play 'em anymore.

[@FrostYT4444]

Y'know, I actually kind of expected this. I saw the video title about how the f-16 wasn't the best and I was like, "Mhmm Ima take that with a grain of salt but if I really had to choose besides the f-16, I would say the hornet"

[@fluppet2350]

The F18 wins again. It is the bestest and sexiest plane still in use.

[@trentlangford9050]

Love this video! Can’t help but be that person, it wouldn’t be G in forces as g’s measure acceleration. Just acceleration in g’s. I guess the the term g-forces is ambiguous here

[@Tabs_Original]

Glad you like it! I said G in forces to be funny as I had no idea what the measurement would actually be lol. It's just always called G-force. Acceleration makes sense.

[@georgew.9663]

This is silly, everybody knows the best jet in DCS is the F-18. This is because it’s my favourite

[@Meyer-gp7nq]

Based

[@aviatorlewski9310]

I love how you broke it down with objective fact instead of just mocking everyone who thinks otherwise

[@Vogelchen]

And people were calling me crazy for saying the Mirages rate is almost the same if not better than the F-16 in DCS. Whenever I said I keep up or even beat the F-16s in a rate fight on dogfight servers they say "the enemy was bad".

[@StoneCoolds]

Funny enough, both Lemon and Atte said in their channels that the mirage was capable of rating the f16 in some scenarios

[@Youda00008]

Because they buffed it to unrealistic levels to buff their sales.

[@fillman86]

I'm confused, wouldn't the limiting factor in all jets like this be the squishy human blacking out? or do some somehow prevent blacking out?

[@SurprisedPikachu247]

@tabs the memes are so so good. Please never stop with the humor.

[@Zahadum_goth]

Are there any changes in DCS F-16 flight model that makes it closer to realit? 8 month have past.

[@Tuuvas]

Fantastic breakdown! Good work!

[@Tabs_Original]

Thank you! I have recommended your controller tutorial videos to so many new players! They are great!

[@plaguedduck6858]

I agree. As an aviation nerd and a DCS lover, the F-16C is not the best dogfighter in DCS. DCS does not have access to classified government data about the F-16C and therefore can only make it so realistic. While in real life, the F-16 would win (depending on the pilots), DCS is not real life. Great video dude

[@MrPeperoni79]

My absolute favorite is the Mirage 2000C. It is among the planes with the best turn rate, but it has the advantage of not vibrating as crazy when it is at its limit. Just feels totally smooth.

[@harmonyvtolvr]

Glad to know my Hornet mastery will come in handy if I ever dogfight (I usually just run away)

[@manizaeim]

ED is working on a FM of Hornet, no, that doesnt mean the Hornet or Viper will get better performance as they should, that means ED will make it worth AGAIN, i experienced 3 times major FM enhancement in Hornet since 2018

[@lexikdark3392]

So you are 100% correct. and I say that as a DCS F-16 boi. I love the 16. and even with this reality, I still win most of my fights agains't anything else in the air. I have yet to see a single JF-17 being able to stay on my ass long enough to survive while I'm flying the 16 tho. but as you know. there are way too many variable's to take into account to say which on of these is Actually the better fighter in a BFM fight. if both apponents are equally matched in skill and both aircraft are as equal as possible to make them as nimble as they can be then these numbers come into effect more realistically I'd say. But you are correct. the F-16 Isn't as good as its IRL counterpart. we don't even have the more powerful engine of the 16 in DCS. That being said. ED has been slowly but surely fixing or improving the Flight characteristics of both the 14,15,16 & 18 over the last year or so. which is very noticable.

[@mygoodsir539]

as an f16 main i can tell you your absolutely correct plz buff my bird

[@potatosuc]

It matches the em charts exactly, and so does the f18, cry

[@kaydenchan7093]

It would be very interesting to see how this perception of the F-16 being an amazing rate fighter comes from.

[@SA80TAGE]

from the fact it's an amazing rate fighter irl. In it's day it was certainly king. Typhoon took that spot a while ago though, being literally designed to out-do the f-16. DCS is realistic sure, but it's not accurate to irl performance. That's the point of the video.

[@kaydenchan7093]

@@SA80TAGE No, even in game there's a perception of the F-16 being an amazing rate fighter. And it doesn't help that there are videos of F-16s outrating everything in DCS, but that is likely due to energy mismanagement on the opponent of the F-16. kzbin.info/www/bejne/iKSoY5molJ5oebM

[@SA80TAGE]

@@kaydenchan7093 I guess you misunderstood my comment there buddy. I was talking about irl.... then pointed out DCS is NOT in fact a true representation of reality anyway.

[@Random_War_Thunder_Player]

​@@SA80TAGEGripen

[@bryanmyers9977]

Very interesting info. I've struggling to rate well in the F-18 and this was very helpful. Time to play around with the paddle switch and higher speeds than I've been doing!

[@kylewubker1127]

I just did a test flight in a clean viper with 30% fuel and was able to get about 21.5-22.5 degrees per second at around 440-470 knots at 500-1000 ft ASL sustained per Tacview. It was riding the limiter at 9.2-9.4g so I was probably a little too fast. 500+ knots is way to fast for max rate and will be g-limited. Max instantaneous was 25.5 degrees at around 350-360 knots. Not sure these EM diagrams are super accurate anymore.

[@Tabs_Original]

Thats an insanely fast rate speed! Do you have g effect turned on? Pilots pass out at 8ish g sustained in dcs. Also the diagrams use a fuel total based on how much fuel the jet needs for 5 minutes of afterburner at sea level, which would be more than 30% the f-16 has a tiny fuel tank. 30% wouldnt be very long at all.

[@kylewubker1127]

@@Tabs_Original G effect was not turned on for the test. It's really easy to black out in dcs above 8-8.5g so in combat with g-effects turned on I could see the f-16 being at a disadvantage. Agreed on the 30% fuel as well, that is about what would be needed to get back to base :D.

[@Tabs_Original]

@kylewubker1127 sounds like the diagrams are very accurate then. A hornet with 30% fuel and no g effect would outrate god himself... in dcs

[@Tabs_Original]

I dont mean to come across as rude, but the situation you have just given is exactly why people think it is the best rate fighter, people flying it with no g effect and low levels of fuel that are frozen at 20 or 30%. If it has a remotely normal amount of fuel and g effect it is very average. However. You present an interesting scenario. The f-16's seat is reclined so the pilot can sustain more g's. I wonder how it would perform if the g effect was reduced by 5 or 10% in the f-16 compared to jets with upright seats.

[@kylewubker1127]

@@Tabs_Original I tried replicating Contact Light's test. It looks like he was running 87% fuel in the f-16 to end up at 11867kg or 26162 lbs. My results were actually pretty close. Roughly 18-19 degrees per second sustained somewhere around 500 knots. I wasn't expecting the extra fuel to make it that much worse, it went from pulling 9-9.4g at 450 knots at 30% fuel to only being able to pull 7-7.5g at 87%. One could argue that you wouldn't ever come to a merge with 87% fuel, but interesting results indeed.

[@YupThatsSnowz]

Its also who you give the flightstick :), i've flown in a competitive DCS dogfighting group for a little while and the F-18 Is the best dogfighter, especially with the new flight model. the f18 can overpower anyone if the pilot knows what he's doing, But i still think the F16 is a absolute beauty in dcs and real life, it might not be the best dogfighter but i think its on the top 5 easy

[@maybeiamepic2263]

Is turn rate the most important factor in these dogfights? Is there ways to make up for turn rate in dogfights of similar skill? For reference on the graphs, what speed do you usually dogfight at? Do other aircraft have better turn rate with more impressive complements?

[@ctfraven]

it's important to know the F-16 is one of the better rate fighters... at 25k ft... and at mission fuel loads... so it's not all doom and gloom for it even if you superimpose a flight deck of 10kft the ranking switches up and that's mainly due to how different jets handle higher mach numbers and thinner air. And if you're able to win the first energy fight up at altitude, then you will often transition to lower altitudes in an advantage this is knowledge a level above what's in this video and won't help you on DCS dogfighters, but will help you in many other cases, so cheers!

[@miguelafonso6114]

guys i need to know which aircrafts i should buy for myself i already have the mig-29

[@Tabs_Original]

What do you like doing in DCS and what is your budget? Flaming cliffs 3 is great value.

[@dadolphinplayz]

if you enjoy soviet fighters and want a full fidelity one then the codename flanker mod is pretty good, my friend always played fc3 and now went to codename flanker and he is having a lot of fun

[@christopherchartier3017]

I got scared seeing the A-10 silhouette there for a sec for best rate fighter lol

[@RoqueTHEGAMER]

what about the SU-27+that cobra button?(forgot the name)

[@Tabs_Original]

I call it the cobra button, lol no idea what the actual name is. The cobra button only helps the SU-27 turn faster for a few seconds, after that it has bled too much airspeed and is at a suboptimal airspeed to continue rating around the circle.

[@earthexplorer579]

its called Cobra manouvere

[@Youda00008]

Thanks. Hopefully this will get seen by the people constantly saying so.

[@shyneus9773]

;( Viper my beloved, I hope you get the FM you deserve

[@zefzec]

What was your skin at 3:47, the orange one? I quite like it.

[@Tabs_Original]

It is my Favourite! It is the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) 3 Squadron (3SQN) 100th anniversary paint scheme. You'll have to download it. Search RAAF 3SQN 100th Anniversary and it should pop up.

[@zefzec]

@@Tabs_Original (sorry for not responding) I don't mean to be rude or confrontational but the RAAF skin isn't the one there. It is pretty close but the one at the scene around 3:47 has american markings and pure white paint instead of the tan. I assume the one here is some kind of us flight school or trainer but I can't seem to find it on my own.

[@Tabs_Original]

@zefzec4462 oh yeah my bad i thought you were referring to a different one! I would call it more red. I don't know for sure but someone in another video has called it the China lake paint scheme which is all the info i have on it unfortunately.

[@zefzec]

@@Tabs_Original Oh, yeah thats it. Thanks

[@ArcherAC3]

Any chance you could test that in BMS as well? It has a much higher quality aerodynamic model by what we hear, and I swear I have never struggled to defeat a Hornet there as I did in BMS with a equal configuration F-16.

[@carljeppe2906]

came from the shorts and i ain’t going back - ion even play dcs

[@TheRobeRanger]

I’m about to post this in the Growling Sidewinder discord, that should be well received, right?..

[@petriruusuvaara809]

Where does Gripen stand in DCS?

[@stephenpledger4428]

Those JF be pulling some magic moves in some dcs sever 😂

[@theleftfootedsultan]

Nobody tell DCS players about the MiG-19P-the heavier, dedicated interceptor variant of first mass-produced supersonic aircraft, which first flew in 1952-getting a maximum sustained turn rate within a quarter of a degree of the F-16 in DCS if both are at 50% fuel.

[@projenitor2387]

There at the time maybe even currently are no consequences for using the paddle. Which makes it unrealistic. Therefor If your using paddle your cheating anyway. As a hornet main its embarrassing to use the paddle to win an exhibition dog fight. If I where to add my opinion further, F16 is amazing at dog fight because of its ability to trade energy. Once the Hornet cashes in it can't regain its energy state like the 16 can.

[@ef2111]

The story is a little different depending on the configuration. A dirty and heavy Viper has a better chance against a dirty and heavy Hornet in DCS. But yea, a slick and light Hornet dominates.

[@Tabs_Original]

Would be interesting to see data for wingtip aim 9's and empty pylons on each jet (in order to emulate jettisonning unwanted stores and tanks upon a merge). Both with 5mins of ab fuel.

[@ef2111]

@@Tabs_Original Arena 13 is the great equalizer in the DCS Dogfighters server.

[@Tabs_Original]

@ef2111 I have never tried it! Are the loadouts similar? Or does it exist to nerf to hornet?

[@ef2111]

@@Tabs_Original the only difference is fuel. I believe that arena has an 80% fuel state. Much different story for Viper vs. Hornet.

[@Tabs_Original]

@ef2111 oh right, Thats sounds interesting!

[@Insatiable-saucy]

3:14 special mentions, the biplane legion

[@paperswan]

AHHH I CANT! I-IM GONNA RELEASE SECRET DOCUMENTS RN

[@Vice1-4]

“F-16 laughs in AMRAAM”

[@dawixd2678]

Flanker laughs in _turning to the side_

[@Wizzar_sillymus]

idk why but one time i was playing in f-16 my amraam had same if not worse range than aim 9😅

[@SA80TAGE]

.... then cries because ya hit a friendly!

[@skwal5464]

"F/A 18 laughs in AMRAAM"

[@dadolphinplayz]

​​@@skwal5464bring double pylon amraams and laugh in spamraam :)

[@laaams]

I actually want to see you and GS doing 10 rounds of F-16 vs F-18. Each 5 rounds in each plane. Because it's damn confusing he says the F-18 is a balanced jet with an advantage in low-speed 1-circle fight, where the F-16 is primarily designed for 2-circle fight. And he shows it in a lots of dogfight, I think I've seen 80% of his videos so far. Would you even consider my comment😅

[@Tabs_Original]

I would happily do that! unsure if it will ever happen though. The rate speed depends a significant amount on loadout and whether or not the paddle switch is used in the hornet as to what the best rate fighter is. But in the configuration in this video the hornet beats everything by a lot.

[@laaams]

@@Tabs_Original Thanks for the reply man, appreciate. I will take that into consideration. I'll be on the lookout if you two ever decide to do this confrontation!🔥

[@BurtsGamingHub]

Mirage 2000 my beloved, the AoA you can pull in fights when you want to get aggressive is very fun. The ultimate risk vs reward dogfighter in my opinion

[@agidotexe7167]

To play devils advocate, the paddle switch should not be used regularly if ur doing sim stuff, as it will bend the airfame after sustained use irl.

[@Tabs_Original]

I agree. With things bolted on the wings they will snap if you paddle and pull too much g. But even without the paddle the hornet still outrates everything except the mirage 2000c

[@StuartBoyer]

What about now that the Viper got a update on G-Force as of 4-10-24?

[@Tabs_Original]

I am yet to get results! But from what i have seen the flight model is the same, the pilot can withstand more g force. Which will mean slightly better rate performance, but still very similar.

[@bruhhhhmoment4848]

I was dissapointed when I got into dcs and my favorite plane was getting shit on planes that are 1 circle fighters

[@Purpose_Bilt]

we had fights with the airforce in Langley. they hated the 18s. until they got the 22. they said " those fuckin hornets point their nose wherever they want and go."

[@viperdriver82]

I actually noticed after flying the F-18 for a while that it rates well at 400 -450 kts

[@anonydun82fgoog35]

The thing is if you pull a tight circle like that in the F18 you had better not miss your shot because you are never getting that airspeed back.

[@Tabs_Original]

It is very easy to get too slow in the Hornet thats for sure

[@CTANKEP1985]

That looks like my fav server, mobettametas dogfighters!

[@Tabs_Original]

Indeed it is!

[@CTANKEP1985]

@@Tabs_Original Only the top dogs end up there. Growling Sidewinder and the lot can keep dreaming that the Falcon is a superior dogfighter (in DCS)!

[@Tabs_Original]

@CTANKEP1985 I am purely mythbusting, and not aiming at anyone specifically, but if people get upset by facts, then that's just too bad I guess.

[@mplmpl7780]

Love DCS Dogfighters and F16 my name =Bulldog= .

[@davinci69]

There was a real life graph for the f16 like the ones you showed in a realengineering video about the f16. Maybe it would be fun to compare them and see how close dcs is? And keep in mind the us military tends to understate performance of its aircraft

[@MonkeyZaur]

Solution: leak classified documents the war thunder style

[@vegass7771]

The Viper has better straight line acceleration, needing to reach 500 knots and pull 9G, with the latter being difficult in DCS, in BMS the pilot is more resistant to G-Load.

[@Tyrannosauroidea]

ED needs to fix this ! (By getting sekret documents from warthunder forums)

[@EricaCalman]

I've been wanting to do a video on E-M theory but I've actually had to use BMS because of how far off the DCS flight model is from reality.

[@MuteSpider63393]

F-16 has been making me feel a lot better about myself in the Eagle. I found myself starting to get worse at the 2C due to all these icky hornets being not nice. So I use opponents that have the F-16 to get myself back on my feet. If only I could just simply run from the hornet similar to what I’ve heard the eagles do irl and energy trap them.

[@UNAVIATIONTACTICAL]

The War Thunder meme is true. I haven't leaked any documents though (Yet)

[@Soviet_Grunt]

If I may ask is the turn rate for the f 14 in your graphs with or without the flaps deployed?

[@Tabs_Original]

There are graphs for the F-14 with and without the flaps. The data was compiled and graphed by Contact Light. The graphs are available on the dcs dogfighters discord 🙂

[@kingghidorah8106]

you're the Captain Squishface of DCS except you're not a drunk belligerent 40 year old guy. Can't wait to get a proper salary to get a decent gunfighting set up! I already have the hotas, I just need the pedals and the head tracker.

[@ExwhyzFR]

wait, why aren't we comparing the f16 and f18c's turn rates at the same speed? wouldn't the f16 have a similar turn rate at 420kt?

[@matchesburn]

There should definitely be more than enough open source material to show the F-16 is not performing as it should be. One of the things that landed Eagle Dynamics in trouble over ITAR issues is flight manuals and technical manuals for the F-16. It could be just a programming issue, as well, with something interfering with it instead of them using lower figures for turn rate. It's a complex system.

[@philash824]

A very interesting video, considering both planes are 50 years old (or there abouts) I’d say they’re both doing well, especially considering the us air force were considering retiring some F22s (until congress blocked them)

[@JFirn86Q]

DCS game devs are Navy pilots apparently.

[@skulljoked]

For what it's worth ex-FAF pilot claimed pretty confidently that there is no better dogfighter in the world than the Hornet, in a Finnish podcast. There may be bias, but honestly he didn't seem that enamored with his old flight platform since it's outdated by today's aerial warfare standards. But for what it's worth FAF has trained extensively with other western airforces long before the NATO membership so he would surely have dogged it out with F-16's in training.

[@milosterzic6452]

MiG-29A(9-12) beat the F-16 block 10 (i think) when ex GDR pilots faced american pilots, just so you know, they swapped places too, and western pilots who flew the mig beat their own f16s

[@theleftfootedsultan]

A good deal of that was HOBS R-73s, in fairness.

[@Baltic_Dude]

MiG-29 rates better than the F-16 ironically lmao

[@off6848]

Not surprising at all the propaganda surrounding the f16 since the conflict has been down right bonkers