The Failure of 'Majin' Vegeta - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Majin Boo Arc Part 12!

Dragon Ball Dissection December continues with Bobbidi taking over Vegeta. This fractious move is perhaps Vegeta's most iconic moment. But does it really hold up? What works and what doesn't?
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/ mistarefusion

[@spazerdazer8421]

"My favorite Vegeta is Frieza Arc Vegeta" Pretty much sums ups Vegeta's thoughts when he went Majin.

[@798jeremy]

And I'm on Lance's side too for that one !

[@spartanq7781]

@@798jeremy That was a evil to the core and everyone reacted accordingly to him. That is not how it is handled post the Freeza arc. It no longer makes sense he just becomes the plot device to turn everything to hell.

[@KaiserMattTygore927]

Same, having a third party interloper was what made him fun to watch, its also why Imperfect Cell was so fun before he dumped all of his info in one sitting. The Buu Saga really didn't have much of that "Third Party character fucking shit up" factor.

[@mielthesquid6536]

@@spartanq7781 he was a plot device on Namek too but it was well written enough so it didn't feel like it. It was believable and relatable in many ways, which is hardly the case in later arcs. I, too, think Vegeta on Namek is what makes the arc so good, I wish Vegeta would have stay dead, it would have been one of the best way to end with this character.

[@kevinlee9929]

@@mielthesquid6536 Vegeta staying dead would have been a HUGE MISTAKE.

[@SaiyanHeretic]

"I'm tired of there being no way to move a Dragon Ball plot along without Vegeta drunkenly stumbling in and breaking things." Well then, you might be interested in Dragon Ball SUPER, where the only way to move the plot along is for GOKU to drunkenly stumble in and break things!

[@MistareFusion]

Hahaha, that's wonderful! I'm going to go cry in a corner now.

[@brandonlyon730]

Well to be far the only time that’s really valid is near the end of the Trunks arc and the Tournament of power arc. Beerus was going to earth regardless and it was Majin Buu who pushed his buttons. Frieza got resurrected by his own minions and did it without anyone noticing immediately. No body else was really involved in what Zamasu did and before Goku even appeared to him Zamasu was already a bad egg so he probably would’ve eventually do his zero mortal plan regardless if Goku ever appeared to him. What was stupid though was the fact they had the means of trapping the immortal Zamasu and Goku completely blew it by forgetting the seal to keep him in there allowing him to escape and allowing Merged Zamasu to be a thing that eventually results in Trunk’s universe being erased from existence, but Goku never gets called out for it when this is about as much his own fault and he doesn’t even get as much as a scolding. The tournament of power is completely Goku’s fault, it didn’t matter if Zeno was planning on killing all mortals anyway, Goku was barely taking it seriously and from his point of view he is basically responsible of trillions of lives deaths and he hardly acts upset about and he never gets comeuppance for his stupidity.

[@samueloak1600]

@@brandonlyon730 I think you can't really blame Goku for the ToP, tho, Zeno had suggested it since long ago, as well.

[@brandonlyon730]

@@samueloak1600 Perhaps but Goku never knew that and he had been told dozens of times to not mess with the Omni King and he just ignores them. And when it seems like everything was his fault his attitude barely changes and doesn’t feel any sort guilty or responsibility. It makes Goku look so awful regardless if Zeno was going to do it or not.

[@islandboy9381]

@@samueloak1600 It was either the tournament or Zeno just deleting the weaker universes

[@sumerapaleema610]

That satisfied sigh as the credits started rolling. That was the sound of a man who's waited 8 years to speak his mind. Hope it was worth the wait, Lance.

[@gavinlucas9761]

Yeah I can't imagine trying to wait 8 years just to speak your mind, I don't think even I could wait that long.

[@aliastheabnormal]

And then comes Super where its Goku being a continuous dumbass is what drives the plot foward.

[@fightingmedialounge519]

And occasionally vegeta alias.

[@Xeno574]

@@aliastheabnormal Well, really if we think about it, Beerus came to Earth to fight the prophesied Super Saiyan God, that's not Goku's stupidity is it? Freeza was revived by the remnants of the Freeza Force, and Freeza came to earth to fight Goku, that's not Goku being stupid either. The U6 tournament was held because of Beerus' and Champa's grudge towards each other, Goku was just glad to have a proper fight again. Again, not Goku's stupidity. Goku Black came along because Zamasu felt that Mortals did not deserve such power and freedom after watching Goku's fight with Hit. Once again, it's because of Goku, but not because he was being reckless or something. Dude was just using his power to win a tournament. Nothing wrong with that. The Tournament of Power was STILL not Goku's fault or him being stupid because: 1.The rules were not set up by Goku but rather the Grand Priest and Zeno, Goku did not want the erasure of losing universes. 2.Goku went to Zeno thinking of just a simple fun little tournament like the U6 one. The stakes were somewhat high there, yes. But Earth was just gonna be transported to U6. If we really think on it, that changes almost nothing. Goku and friends would still live like normal albeit with a different G.O.D. 3.Zeno was gonna erase the universes anyway, Goku, while indirectly, still gave the multiverse a fighting chance, to fight for their survival. At the end of the day it all turned out well. So I politely disagree. Goku is such a dumbass in Super but to say he caused the problems in Super on his own will is wrong.

[@ThisHandleSystemCanGetNicked]

@@Xeno574 I mean, here's what Goku did cause - he caused Frieza to survive by giving him energy, he let Frieza get stronger to fight him as his full power, he lets Majin Buu off the hook by not killing him when he fought him, even though he admitted himself he could've beaten him. Even this video tries to state that whole Buu arc was explicitly Vegeta's fault, and yet Goku deliberately chooses not to transform because it would consume too much energy, only to do exactly that moments later. The Buu arc in general relies almost exclusively on the stupidity of the main characters, and i too grew pretty tired of the Vegeta is responsible for the bad guy trope that Toriyama kept repeating, but as far as i'm concerned Majin Vegeta is the only good thing about that whole arc.

[@Ineedgames]

Trunks "The Androids are humanity's greatest threat" Vegeta kills people Vegeta "I will kill everyone on this planet as long as you are one of them"

[@DemonicRemption]

@Aya ya Huh, given Mistare's mention of Vegeta being a constant antagonist in the series, that scene makes a lot more sense now.

[@mrboerger1620]

It's fucking great

[@pn2294]

@@DemonicRemption that’s honestly the reason why a lot of his bad traits get glossed over. He really is still a villain.

[@islandboy9381]

Vegeta after going SSJ: "I am pure, pure evil" Trunks: yup definitely the Androids are the bigger threats no doubt about it

[@spartanq7781]

@@islandboy9381 I know right? Vegeta throughout the series continually maintains that he is evil but no one cares. Honestly it would have made more sense if he intentionally did evil things to see what he could get away with.

[@TheAzulmagia]

I have to imagine someone on the Toei staff agrees with you about Vegeta being an entitled child at points in the series, because there's an episode or two of Dragon Ball Super where he spends most of his screentime with a pacifier in his mouth as a gag at his expense.

[@paintbrush3554]

Lmao Im gonna pretend this is fact.

[@theradionicrevival8068]

@@paintbrush3554 I doubt its that deep, but it definitely isn’t that hard to believe that an entire team of folks don’t equally like and hate the same characters lol

[@INFERNO95]

@@theradionicrevival8068 Toei never like vegeta. Look how they treat him in the movies and GT.

[@fightingmedialounge519]

Rest of the cast: why would you do this vegeta? How could you think any of this is good idea! Vegeta: probably because I'm a dangerous sociopath with a long history of violence Rest of the cast: oh. Vegeta: I don't know how you keep forgetting this.

[@fightingmedialounge519]

@@nicholassims9837 llamas with hats.

[@spartanq7781]

Thank you!. Vegeta gets away with anything but if the other villains did the same they would deal with them. While Vegeta gets away Scott free.

[@JustButton]

9:28 my god this is FAAAAASCINATING to me. You’re right, we haven’t seen Vegeta’s reform, and just like with Krillin and 18s relationship, the fanbase, myself included, has headcanoned it into a better told story than toriyama could write... I think there’s something to this, like... if a kid likes the characters and the action, and the power ups, they’ll begin to fill in the gaps for it as they grow older, and i think Toriyama knows to leaves those gaps when he can. Each picture is worth 1000 words at least, so one too many pictures and you’re speaking WAY too much already. I’m gonna take note of this in the future

[@DrDelon]

Like in videogames, "mods will fix it"

[@fightingmedialounge519]

It took you this long to realize this?

[@Jose-se9pu]

Except maybe the reason is that Toriyama is not that good of a writter...as a lot of people stated in the past few years, Team Four Stars made a better work with some of the story than Toriyama. Case in point, their Vegeta is better than the original.

[@JustButton]

@@fightingmedialounge519 It took me this long to realize that it's good writing to not overexplain what you can't draw/write well, instead of expecting yourself to be good at drawing/writing everything.

[@digimonlover1632]

@@Jose-se9pu Nah. Only comedy wise.

[@BarrettC9]

Vegeta Stans “Vegeta didn’t kill those people, he was being controlled by Babadi!” Also Vegeta Stans “VEGETA SO STRONG, HE DO WHAT HE WANT!”

[@gyroshard00forever20]

That's very accurate.

[@imarealone_0076]

It's me.....I'm vegeta stans

[@MultiverseOfInfinity]

I would be mad, but I'm a Piccolo stan so I support your comment

[@gruknarorcishwar-yerhereto8489]

As a true Vegeta Stan all I gotta say is “maybe I’m the bad guy”

[@lknmjh]

Conveniently, those same fans also ignore that Goku (whether you read the manga, watched the Japanese dub of the anime, watched the original FUNimation dub of the anime, watched the Japanese dub of Kai: The Final Chapters, or watched the FUNimation dub of Kai: The Final Chapters) correctly surmises that Vegeta pretty much did so of his own free will

[@superior2096]

Vegeta: kills a bunch of a people. Bulma: Bruh.

[@spritvio639]

I'm surprised she even cared. She got together with him before despite killing tons of people and bragging about it lol.

[@brandonlyon730]

And yet some people treated Yamcha as the ‘bad guy’ of there relationship.

[@spartanq7781]

@@brandonlyon730 People crap on Yamaha just because he isn't as strong as the others. Battle powers matters to them not storytelling and character writing.

[@savagedarksider5934]

@@spartanq7781 Bulma( after finding out Yamaha died.): I was gonna to marry him someday. Years later... So, Uh, how did that turn out ?

[@spartanq7781]

@@savagedarksider5934 Bulma: "oh I left him for a mass murdering whiner who tangentially killed him in the first place." Anyone with a brain and morals: you heartless bitch.

[@gruknarorcishwar-yerhereto8489]

Don’t worry in at least 3 years those extras will forget dying cause that’s the memory span of the average person in dragon ball

[@Mekelaina]

i feel like DBZA hit the nail on the head when they gave vageta the line: *while crying* "i wanna be a super saiyan, i wanna wanna wanna"

[@noahmclaughlin7921]

It amazes me how much DBZA calls out issues that DB Dissection covers. Like Piccolo noticing the repetition in the movies and the henchmen in particular. Or Bardock becoming super sayian out of anger due to how stupid him being in the past is. Or Piccolo being upset with them bringing him to Namek. Or Garlic Jr. trying to kill Piccolo before using the dragon balls.

[@dr.c2195]

But during that point Vegeta is not a baby. He wants to be Super Saiyan so that he can free himself of the rule of a terrible tyrant. That is not petty. He only becomes petty after he picks up the good life in the Android Saga.

[@pascalsimioli6777]

​@@dr.c2195They're referring to the scene where Vegeta recalls how he got super sayan while talking to Android 19. Even if you were right, which you're not, it would still be a man acting as a child, no matter the reason.

[@dr.c2195]

​@@pascalsimioli6777 You are missing the point. I was referring to the original.

[@lulu1997master]

> Sees title > Remembers that Mistare said this was gonna be a controversial episode I'm setting up my chair and getting popcorn then, this is a great pre-Christmas gift!

[@chrissullivan6572]

I've watched this like 10 times. I can't get over how on point it is.

[@TypOnomIcon]

A side story focusing on a normal person killed in one of these uber-powered showdowns, having no concept of what's going on, then suddenly coming back to life days later and having to deal with the memory, aftermath, and feeling that you shouldn't be there anymore would actually be pretty cool.

[@PrimatePunk]

I wonder if trauma even exists as a concept in dragonball. Either it simply doesn't exist at all or the citizens within dragonaball become so traumatized by every cataclysmic event to the point they collectively repress all memories of them... Maybe this is why everyone couldn't recognize Piccolo at the Budokai tournament lol

[@nathanwalker6284]

It clearly does as seen with Future trunks

[@PrimatePunk]

@@nathanwalker6284 How so?

[@SirJoelsuf1]

It doesn't. If it did, hardly any of the characters would be able to function. In fact, DB almost makes a mockery of individuals who have been traumatized. Which is fine to me, its just entertainment. And this is coming from someone who has faced a decent amount of trauma.

[@to2wacze612]

I am pretty sure its because he never took off the turban the antenna is the only reason people in the piccolo jr arc realised he is king piccolo's son

[@paintbrush3554]

@@PrimatePunk he reacts with anxiety over any kind of android. Even ones hes unfamiliar with simply due to being an android. Its not wholely realistic but its probably the only portrayal of lingering truama or at least lingering negative feelings over a past situation in dragon ball.

[@Saiyef96]

“If you shoot me with the intent to kill me but I survive and get better, that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Sure it’s better than the alternative but that still doesn’t make it something to shrug at.” My thoughts on Persona fans insisting that Persona 5’s Protagonist should not or would not have any misgivings about his friendship with Goro Akechi and would resume their close relationship with him with no problems or hesitation.

[@williamharmon4039]

Yeah. I'm a huge fan of Persona 5, but Akechi was still a murderous maniac who really couldn't have just been accepted after what he did. Sure, he was mentally disturbed and motivated by the harshness of society and a much more evil man, but that is merely an explanation and does not excuse or justify anything he did.

[@weedandwater]

Niggas is spoiling persona 5 in a dragon ball analysis. I’m glad I played it already 😂

[@ZBoy-rc8zf]

@@weedandwater lol wild

[@snakeboy2017]

Throughout this whole video, I was constantly thinking "man, we really do need a compilation of a guy reading 'Majin Vegeta shirts' in a funny voice and low quality/earrape audio, with a Kazoo cover of the DBZ score in the background".

[@MistareFusion]

Sounds like fun. Send me some shirts!

[@TheBottomTier]

@@MistareFusion Sadly, I've seen 'I'M NOT THE MONSTER YOU THINK I AM - I'M WORSE' and 'THERE'S A SPECIAL PLACE IN HELL FOR ME, IT'S CALLED A THRONE' Vegeta shirts in person.

[@islandboy9381]

@@TheBottomTier Man even Vegeta would cringe at that shit.

[@cyberninjazero5659]

@@TheBottomTier I read all of those in Chris Sabat's voice!

[@radicallaruby]

"He's a recovering addict." Yeah pretty much, just handled way too fast for me. I still liked his redemption for what it was, since I know Dragon Ball (and most shounen in general) dont seem to focus on trauma and damages dealt by previously horrible people that join the cast later. However, it would have much more payoff as you said to show more nuances behind Vegeta's inner conflict. A story of failure akin to Bardock may work as well, in fact, even better, because we got to know Vegeta's character for much longer. I still overall stand by Namek arc Vegeta being the most entertaining though. He certainly had middle fingers for everyone during that arc.

[@brandonlyon730]

That’s why I found it funny when the arc first started everyone was bitching about Endeavor from My Hero Academia getting his own redemption arc saying he doesn’t deserve it or it was going to far. And yet here we have some of those types of people defending what Vegeta has done despite him being far FAR worse then Endeavor.

[@juliandavidhoffer2022]

@@rpllrp it’s more so that everyone in the world is full of shit and has a double standard but won’t admit it.

[@Darkflo23]

I think it's why i enjoyed Vegeta during the Moro arc so much, as he was constantly trying to make amends to the Namekians.

[@mechajay3358]

@@Darkflo23 Yeah, it shows that while he has found redemption, he still feels that he has to make amends for his past actions.

[@CB-wu8vf]

@@brandonlyon730 It's the same case as the Videl vs Spopovich fight. Violence in Dragon Ball was always been there but people dont feel so shocked by, lets say, all the times Gohan was nearly beaten to death, compared to when Spopovich brutally tortures Videl. The broken tooth and other "realistic" depiction of violence hits harder than Gohan being constantly smacked and even having his head almost crushed multiple times. This is the same case: doemstic abuse hits too close to home, specially coming for a guy who is suppoosed to be a hero. Compared to that, the acts of cruelty that Vegeta commits and his mass murdereres are tame just beacause they 're too detached from reality. It also helps the fact that most of his innocent victims are nameless extras whom we don't have any emotional atachment. PD: sorry for (possible) broken english

[@arnaldobanquez7034]

I think a good example of a wild card in shonen manga is Hisoka from hunter x hunter

[@Drums_of_Liberation]

Heck you could consider Gon a wild card too when you factor in his mentality and actions during the Chimera Ant arc.

[@islandboy9381]

Pierce Martinez Not really, Gon was the most determined and straightforward in his mission during the Chimera Ant invasion out of the whole cast, it's all the other characters that started to change themselves and thus made key twists happen, but Gon didn't change he remained static in his ways that's exactly what lead to his demise ultimately.

[@Soynereh]

Ling Yao and Greed.

[@sunwukong5518]

Imagine if we had more youtubers like Mistarefusion but for other manga. I would love a HxH, One Piece, Death Note Disscetion

[@esperderek5383]

God, can you imagine being one of those poor bastards that Vegeta murders? You're chilling, watching a martial arts tournament, when surprise! Some asshole taking a hissy fit murders you in a way you've never seen before. Congratulations, you learn of the afterlife! Depending on your belief system, everything has either been confirmed or upended. Then you're resurrected. Somehow you return to life. Something about that Dragon Ball myth or something? You're alive again, huzzah! Sure you're stuck with the trauma of what happened and the knowledge of the afterlife, but fine. You're alive. That counts for something. Then, like between like an hour or a day later, you die AGAIN as Majin Buu kills everyone. Then you're resurrected AGAIN. Like, how do you even to process your life and death yo-yo action?

[@sumpyori]

The Moro arc is the first time it seems they are actually trying to have Vegeta atone for his sins, its a good plot point, but of course they dont explore it deep enough.

[@aetherialbeing4223]

How exactly? His entire goal in the arc was trying to avenge Namek and atone for what he’d done, he even states he bound for Hell and accepts it, he openly admits to what he’s trying to do and why, then achieves it while not trying to seem like a hero.

[@sumpyori]

@@aetherialbeing4223 2 year old comment so I don't necessarily agree with my point, but I'd say that the Buu saga could have invested a little more time into it. Im not saying change his entire character, but I enjoyed the Super interpretation where Vegeta verbally apologizes and goes out of his way to save the new Namekians from being absorbed. I think the Buu saga is a great first step in that arc, and im glad super has *kinda* carried it along. Because one self sacrifice (buu) is not enough to forgive his past actions. Overall tho I'd say im a fan of the Buu arc Vegeta storyline, besides the killing of the tournament people, completely unnecessary imo.

[@gooseteeth5455]

I SO appreciate an actual criticism of the series rather than just a discussion type video. It's so nice to hear someone who actually is sick of Vegeta's shit and successively Toriyama's shit instead of just talking about it like there are no issues whatsoever. I love Dragon Ball, but people are so quick to call it a masterpiece without analyzing the flaws and shortcomings of the series.

[@razkable]

vegeta fanboys are legit cancer....people talk about other characters fans like zoro sasuke bakugou but his fans are legit idiots like they have no concept of original dragonball and they try to shit on goku and prop vegeta up when hes nothing more than a glorified yamcha pikkoo tenshinhan clone just a tiny bit more used an a saiyan ...thats the only reason people prop him up so much is his use and his bloodline

[@pascalsimioli6777]

@@razkable you completely missed the point: vegeta or the fans aren't the issue, dragonball fans as a whole try to protect a very mediocre product just out of childhood nostalgia and flat out ignorance of storytelling and logic. Yes, it was historical, I won't deny that but it was historical in a vacuum. It was just the trailblazer.

[@islandboy9381]

Vegeta is completely consistent with his character here, you seem more annoyed by fans perception and reception of him, rather than looking at his narrative in the story on it's own.

[@gooseteeth5455]

@@islandboy9381 that's more what im annoyed with yeah. you're right vegeta is consistent but he's a consistent asshole and i just wish the cast of the manga actually realized he's still a threat but instead they act like they're buddies.

[@Xxandrew01]

@@gooseteeth5455 You are talking about the same cast that let Goku the main character off the hook when he lets villains go to full power because he likes a good fight. He's just as bad at this as Vegeta is. Let us not forget him allowing Frieza to go Final Form 100%, him being one of the characters to let the Gero keep making the Androids and even giving Perfect Cell a damn Senzu bean so he can be even stronger than he was when he just got finished fighting Goku, all the while letting his son who didn't even have the power to face off against Perfect Cell at that point in the Cell games take up the fight against and even stronger Perfect Cell for the hopes that MAYBE he will bring out the power he needs to defeat Perfect Cell. Need I remind you that it had to take Android 16 trying to blow up Cell via suicide bombing, and fail due to his bomb being taken out by Bulma, which lead to Cell basically destroying him to the point that his head fell off, and having him make some speech to Gohan and then getting his head crushed by Cell to finally have Gohan release his power and go SSJ2. So even with that Goku's little "plan" there still had some chance circumstances that prevented everyone from being blown up by Cell.

[@g1xrider13]

I would say the “betrayal” in the Cell arc isn’t seen as one by most fans. I think most fans see that as Vegeta’s own stupidity that is immediately paid back as such when Perfect cell kicks his ass. This betrayal is seen as a big deal because he’s actively fighting against Goku the hero of the story and that therefore makes him the active villain not just a wild card or an anti-hero. Even though his betrayal is logical based on past behavior, it’s still shocking because at this point he’s been accepted by Goku, Gohan, Bulma and as far as we know he’s been an ok father to Trunks. He hasn’t killed any innocent people in a really long time and Bulma’s reaction to that makes it all the more appalling.

[@sylentknyte]

I'm with you on that. I never saw what Vegeta did in the Cell arc as a big "betrayal" until Lance pointed it out. I saw it as Vegeta's ego getting in the way of logic. He was too sure of himself and his new power and thought that Cell would be a nice warm up before taking on Goku. I saw it as an act of stupidity, pride, and ego, which is quite in line with Vegeta's character. Goku made a similar mistake when he gave Cell a senzu bean to make the fight with Gohan "fair". I wouldn't call that a betrayal either.

[@Vitamin-L]

If Vegeta was by himself at the time at the time with no one around, and there was no plan to defeat Cell before he became perfect, I might be more inclined to agree that it would've just been a spot of arrogance. However, he was with Krillin and Trunks, both who had no desire to let Cell reach perfection, and Trunks actively tries to stop Vegeta only to get smacked around for it. He actively went against everyone's sane plan and assisted Cell. That's a betrayal. I think the fact that no one cares softens the point for the viewer: if the heroes don't care, why should you? But that point is nonsense in itself.

[@imarealone_0076]

@@Vitamin-L vegeta never once, not once shows any care for anyone or anything besides himself for the entirety of the cell arc up until the cell games. Before even going into the time chamber to train he openly tells goku in front of everyone that he may regret sharing the info of the room with him bc his ultimate goal is to defeat and presumably kill him. He allows gero to shoot bulma and baby trunks out of the sky without lifting a finger. He never even pretended to be on the good side, the strong threats just happened to be on the other team. To call it a betrayal is a reach when you consider he's still a villain basically.

[@g1xrider13]

@@Vitamin-L But it’s not really a “betrayal”because he never agreed to their “plan” in the first place. From the beginning of that arc he only was fighting the Androids and Cell to prove he was the strongest and when Cell tempts Vegeta by telling him that he should fight him in his perfect form, Vegeta falls for it hook line and sinker. At least here he begrudgingly agreed to go along with everyone for the payoff that he would eventually get to fight Goku, but when he realizes he might only get his chance he actively undermines all their efforts and kills innocent people. It’s shocking because we haven’t seen him do anything this evil since Namek before he was fully a member of the group so to speak.

[@sylentknyte]

@@Vitamin-L Good points. I guess there is a fine line in what constitutes "betrayal". For instance, did Goku betray the others by allowing Piccolo or Vegeta to live, despite their objections? If Piccolo or Vegeta had returned and caused more destruction, would it have been a betrayal? If Vegeta had been strong enough to kill Cell as he thought he was, would it still be a betrayal? If Cell had won vs. Gohan, would Goku giving Cell a senzu bean have been a betrayal? Is a characters betrayal defined by their intentions, or the results? I think at the very least Vegeta's betrayal in the Buu arc was much more clear cut. This topic reminds me of the Spoony One. BETRAYAL!!!

[@GalacticMoblin]

If this doesn’t blow up I will be very disappointed in the world, fantastic video all around

[@Dante...]

The algorithm just seems to have a vendetta against his channel for some reason.

[@dwaynejpeterkin]

Solid Steak61 Toiyrama hates the truth comes out

[@kingkirby1394]

After rewatching all versions of these scenes and reading the manga I entirely get where the hype behind this comes from: The funimation dub, it’s almost entirely rooted on that not only does vegeta elaborate on his anguish much more beyond “I want to fight kakarot” but it adds more dialogue such as the flashback scenes of goku and vegetas past how each arc goku outclassed him and took pivotal moments in his life and the subjectively best music from bruce faulconer helped so for those confused why majin vegetas shtick doesn’t land for lance and heck even seemingly most JP and kai watchers it’s because vegeta really does come off as childish in those wheras in the funi dub he genuinely feels enraged about the turns his life has had and how everything centers around goku, yearning to be evil again when he was on top

[@gespenst1329]

Paradoxically, Funimation’s attempt to present it as being “more meaningful and deep than it actually was” is in fact a part of their overall juvenile way of handling the series.

[@kingkirby1394]

@@gespenst1329Yea it’s funny how that all kinda comes full circle at this point in the story 😂

[@YourGuyAlex]

This dragon ball dissection series has really opened my eyes on vegetas character. I always thought his arc was pretty much a straight line. But it’s more like a Rolls-Royce coaster with like 50 loops. It has really surprised me how flawed his arc is or if it’s even an arc at all.

[@juliandavidhoffer2022]

Some say his arc is still ongoing.

[@ZBoy-rc8zf]

I feel like it being a rollercoaster is what makes it great

[@brandonlyon730]

And people once bitched about Endeavor from My Hero Academia getting a redemption arc, and yet here they look the other way of what Vegeta has done.

[@andresmarrero8666]

It honestly surprises me why they Bakugo. That guy is bratness in a bottle wrapped in a severe superiority and inferiority complex and dyed with a heavy dose of arrogance, and worse of all he doesn't really change.

[@brandonlyon730]

@@andresmarrero8666 Well keep in mind he is only 15 you can’t expect a child to have the same amount of mental maturity as a 30-40 year old adult. And I disagree him not changing, while he is still arrogant and loud he is not the same person to tell someone to kill themselves, he understands he is not as overpowered as he thought he was, he’s aware how he failed a big test because of his shitty attitude, and he respects Deku to some extent more. He is still very arrogant but he is not the same person as he was in the start of the series and we see his development throughout it unlike Vegeta’s when we are just told about and just go along with it.

[@mimipeahes5848]

I think that’s because most people have more experience with abusive parents than they do mass murdering space men. Vegeta at least has the excuse of being raised in a culture where violence is normal (granted that’s barely an excuse at all), Endeavor’s just an asshole.

[@oceandragoon3099]

Endeavor’s crimes are much more realistic and relatable which makes it a lot easier to hate him.

[@End_Zionism]

I love how Lance says “Christmas came early for me” he sounds like he *really* got tons of weight off his chest

[@noahmclaughlin7921]

This wasn't something I realized on my own, but Vegeta's whole "sayian's are the best" attitude doesn't really fit him when he doesn't seem to give a shit about any other sayian. He doesn't give a fuck about Raditz's death, while Nappa does. He tries to kill two of the four remaining sayians. He murders Nappa, the only remaining sayian loyal to him. He and Nappa never had kids, despite knowing the sayian race would die with them if they didn't. When he does have a kid, it isn't for that purpose and he initially doesn't care about him even from a utilitarian perspective.

[@Th3Voltergeist]

He’s proud of what he is and where comes from, but that doesn’t mean he cares about the Saiyans themselves.

[@arkkon2740]

​@@Th3Voltergeistthen again, with how much he boasts about being a saiyan, he cares so little about the actual race that he would probably change this attitude if he suddenly lost the saiyan title for some reason. He doesn't even follow the saiyan ideals of "power over all" because he actively hinders his abilities to prove himself but doesn't share this mentality with anyone that isnt a main villain

[@gespenst1329]

Not even his father either. And another thing is his posturing as being a “proud warrior” when really, he’s nothing of the sort when it comes down to it.

[@mitchfletcher2386]

As someone who utterly despises Vegeta, this video is catharsis for me.

[@XanderVJ]

So... Vegeta betraying the group to push the story forward is to Z what Goku behaving like a caricature of himself to push the story forward is to Super. I thought the pattern felt familiar...

[@terraventusaqua123]

Remember that time Goku wanted to fight Monaka? And then Beerus told him no and then threatened to destroy Earth if he pursued? And the Goku SUCKER PUNCHED HIM ANYWAY?!!!

[@KaiserMattTygore927]

Saiyans doing stupid shit is how every arc works since the end of DB original :/

[@hamizanyunos1502]

Yeah I hate DBS Goku, he has really regressed as a character

[@Rationalific]

Yep. Definitely. And Goku in Super is worse than Vegeta in the latter two arcs of Z.

[@fightingmedialounge519]

I don't know about that ration.

[@RarutoUchiha2]

Ah yes, The Vegeta hate! It fuels me! I'm glad that someone finally looked at Vegeta's actions critically without dismissing the negative aspects out of bias.

[@Videospiel-Man5730]

Its just as Satisfieng as defeating Vegeta with Yamcha in Db games! let him be a rich dolt for once!

[@donttalktomeyoureannoying8736]

Vegeta is a POS that’s why we like him.

[@jjh01harmon38]

@@donttalktomeyoureannoying8736 It's funny when Dragon Ball tries to tell us otherwise.

[@the-unforecasted-storm]

7:27 I think it's worth pointing out that, at least for the English fandom, most of the whitewashed misconceptions regarding Vegeta's characterization and villain status can be directly blamed on Funimation's bizarre decision to preemptively rehabilitate him during the Freeza arc. Funimation's version of Vegeta apparently really wanted to be a good person but that goshdarn Freeza was mean to him and forced him to do all those bad things, effectively absolving Vegeta of his past crimes and laying the blame on Freeza instead. Funimation's softening of Vegeta's character continued into the Cell arc where a lot of his more overtly villainous dialogue like proclaiming himself "pure evil" and explicitly vowing the kill Goku is either removed or re-written. Even his relationship with Bulma is re-framed as him loving her but being too proud to admit it rather than him genuinely not giving a shit about her or Trunks until the Boo arc. The cumulative result is that most English fans who are only familiar with the Funimation dub tend to view Vegeta as being this badass, tortued anti-hero in the mold of Wolverine or Batman rather than the evil, selfish prick he is for most of the original source material. Just my observation.

[@razkable]

Vegeta was clearly meant to die on namek but then terminator 2 came out and changed media for years including dbz..vegeta being accepted and going ssj make no sense

[@Another_Hibiki]

I mean, i could believe that Raditz wasn't a bad person, but living with Vegeta and Nappa in Frieza's army changed him for worst while growing up.

[@INFERNO95]

@@razkable It called a business decisions. Fans stated to like vegeta so they kept him around. Whit out him DB would not be the same.

[@INFERNO95]

@@Another_Hibiki If that was true then trunks would have grown up to be evil..

[@Another_Hibiki]

@@INFERNO95 Vegeta was acting much more tame in Earth than he did while he wass a Spacial Traveller (... but even then, he still fcked things up acting while being part of the Dragon Team)

[@sumerapaleema610]

I feel embarrassed. Despite all your great arguments, it's hard for me to completely accept them. Having been exposed to this moment in a positive light for so long, the opposite is hard to swallow. Especially embarrassing because I love multiple perspectives. Then again, I did just watch this. Hopefully my gates will allow this to enter overtime.

[@MistareFusion]

You don't have to accept them. Feel and think about and love Dragon Ball however you'd like to. I'm just glad you listened.

[@heartnet40]

MistareFusions take is a good one, even if I don't agree with it completely. Most specifically, it being another poor choice to move the story forward and missing more opportunities to explore Vegeta's character beforehand are the best parts of this analysis that I find myself agreeing with. They don't make me hate Vegeta though, and that's a perfectly fine thing to most people.

[@TheCristianalvarez]

You care too much about this, no cap.

[@sumerapaleema610]

MistareFusion I guess my wording was a bit misleading. It's more accept as in "allow" than accept as in "agree". I'm basically blocking out your arguments because of how much I've seen Majin Vegeta be treated as a great moment. That's why I'm embarrassed. I wanna hear your arguments, understand them, and then decide if I agree or disagree. But I subconsciously disregard them because they're different from what I've heard before. It's like you've just seen a movie, found it utterly amazing, one of the greatest moments of your entire life. And then a friend just a few minutes later point out flaws they found in the movie, whether subjective or objective. The difference being, I've heard positive things about Majin Vegeta for years. Whether this is natural or something unique to me, I don't know. But I do know that I hate that I'm unwillingly, but instinctively ignoring the other party. I want it to disappear. I don't want nostalgia to make me say "LA-LA-LA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU!". Hopefully, it will disappear with time and I'll be more open. Until it does, I'm gonna listen to this in repeat in hopes of speeding that up.

[@sumerapaleema610]

MistareFusion On top of that, I'd rather be able to explain my disagreement than just saying "I don't agree" and end at that.

[@charliebean2450]

Early Boo arc Vegeta is basically TFS Vegeta when he wanted to become SSJ. "I WANNA FIGHT KAKAROT. I WANT IT. I WANT IT, I WANT IT, I WANT IT!!!!"

[@nicholassims9837]

Why didnt TFS do the Buu saga ?

[@Tokumastu1]

@@nicholassims9837 Burn out. They had a hard time trying to write the jokes and scenarios and realized that if they forced themselves to write the Buu Arc it would've come out in very poor quality. They made a vid going into detail as to why they made the choice.

[@rhondahoward8025]

@@Tokumastu1 Honestly, the Buu Saga is already the most comedic arc in Dragon Ball Z naturally. No need for TFS to improve it.

[@Guitarnetter]

Agreed, this could've been somewhat of a redemption for Vegeta, but looking at how easy he's brought back (by Baba and Porunga), it misses the point greatly

[@spritvio639]

But....isn't that the point of him sacrificing himself against Fat Buu and his plan at the end to defeat Kid Buu?

[@dinogt8477]

Spritvio yes and it was great

[@numberhunter62]

I think the Baba thing was said to be an exception due to Buu and the havoc he would cause. Now, the views of a magical wish granting dragon that could very well be omniscient is something different. Maybe they view good and evil as something completely different from us. Sinners can be saintly and saints can do sin.

[@tintor2]

I love how even removing the consistency M Vegeta the ''redemption'' is forced as heck. Even his refusal to fuse just makes him how childish the guy is and even Super he is still like that in Zamasu

[@spartanq7781]

Speaking of that very moment Vegeta bitches that Goku held back Super Sayian 3 as if it comes anywhere close to what he's done. Goku at that moment should have chastised Vegeta hard for being the cause of everything getting to that point and to shut up and fuse.

[@hjart6751]

That is actually only in the show, in the manga he is the one to tell goku to fuse

[@gavinlucas9761]

I like how you brought up that many people see the main villains of the Z portion as Freeza, Cell, and Majin Boo, but they rarley bring up Vegeta. I always consider Vegeta as a villian during this Z portion era, so it's cool to see you bring it up.

[@ryanr20091]

vegeta is only a main villain in the sayain arc but his arc is very short in comparison to frieza

[@ThexDynastxQueen]

Fan: Ooh whose your favorite Z fighter? Me: Vegeta. Fan: Whose your favorite Z villain? Also me: Vegeta. Fan: *_visible confusion_*

[@islandboy9381]

TFS Vegeta: "Oh look at the poor Namekian lost and forgotten to time" "Even the Saiyan invasion was nothing compared to Cell's destruction" TFS Vegeta: "Bullshit we turned an entire city into a glass floor!" TFS Picollo: "Oh look at the poor Saiyan, lost and forgotten to time"

[@ssjduelistDD]

The anime did the Gohan Dabra fight, Majin Vegeta, and Goku Vegeta fight so much more justice.

[@XanderVJ]

No, it didn't. It just made the fights flashier, but the substance was 100% unchanged.

[@thekungfukid1990]

@@XanderVJ they did look pretty sweet though

[@godemperorofmankind3.091]

@@XanderVJ Manga Goku vs Majin Vegeta is insultingly short. the anime expanded on it in a dramatic and epic way

[@ALocalClown]

@@XanderVJ I mean, there's not much substance to begin with, so I'll take style.

[@NethermanMC2]

@@XanderVJ I found these fights to be underwhelming because of how little focus was given to them. I think the anime actually does make this better because it improves the pacing a lot and adds a lot more weight to what’s happening instead of it feeling like an afterthought.

[@randomfox12245]

In so far as "Z" is concerned, I've never jived with the suggestion that Vegeta "reforms" or "redeems" himself. He sacrifices himself to stop Buu, but he only did it because he knew the thing he ACTUALLY wanted the fight with Goku, had already been taken away from him and he was resigned to that. He did it with his other loved ones in his mind, but he practically was hoping he'd just get a chance to fight Goku again after he died. He even asked Piccolo is sacrificing his life would earn him a ticket into heaven for that reason, and just kinda shrugs when Piccolo says he wont. And at the end of the story he finally admits Goku is better than him. That's not really a REDEMPTION. That's a culmination of his character development, but admitting he's second best doesn't make up for killing innocent people. He ends the story a better person, but not a good person. And certainly not a redeemed one.

[@jordanholt9170]

It's also another instance of redemption through death. The idea that someone can be forgiven of their past transactions because they do one act of good that costs them their life is common in fiction, especially battle shonen, but isn't practical.

[@dariusreyes797]

He did wish back everyone he killed when he was majin tho

[@Yous0147]

Here's the thing. Vegeta by the Buu saga was already redeemed, his whole belief around strength, friends and family had changed over the years so much so that he went from being a melomaniacal mass murderer to a family father and someone who actually respects life beside his own. What happens in the Buu saga is that he himself struggles with this notion, sorta like a midlife crisis, the notion that he isn't the Saiyan warrior prince anymore but rather is a "simpleton", weak because now he would never be able to do the harsh things he once used to. That crisis of identity underpins all of what he does and says as described in the video. The betrayal here comes when he allows Babidi to make him "drunk" on evil power, relinquishing control, lapsing for a few moments with disastrous consequences simply of him being who he is, although who he has become wouldn't be able to do something as heinous as that. But with that power, the side of him that seeks to return to his "former glory" gets a momentous win, and it really only needed that small moment for something that disastrous to happen. It's exactly how real life people who've done horrible horrible things tend to face their difficulties in life, it's rare that you get a person that simply perfectly changes for the better. Instead they have ongoing struggles and momentous lapses and it can sometimes take a looooooong time to even see much of a difference even though something is happening on the inside all the while. The difference between Vegeta and say Frieza or Cell, is that Vegeta has redeeming qualities, they just need a metric ton of time, work and difficulty to shine out, and only once he himself acknowledges and accepts those qualities and make them his, then he gets redeemed. No one can fix what they did in the past, the only thing they can do is ernistly acknowledge it, try and fix what they can from it now, and try to do your best in the future and not falter, that's the only kind of redemption that can be.

[@aetherialbeing4223]

@@Yous0147 Dbs Manga spoiler here: Moro Arc Vegeta backs the idea of him regretting what he’s done in the past, he’s actually trying to Atone for his shitty actions. Doesn’t really help Buu Saga Vegeta as there’s like a 20 year difference between when they were written lol, just found it cool how the plot point is being focused on now

[@Martialartfruituser]

A little lat to comment, but I have to ask...what does count as him redeeming himself in your eyes. What would be the point the character has redemption and fixed himself. He has died, admitted to his weakness compared to Goku, and has changed by Buu. What more needs to happen to make the character feel redeemed.

[@wwemusicfanC]

Aaah, Vegeta, Majin or otherwise and the fanbase's constant staning of him. I only ever really liked Vegeta during the Saiyan, Freeza and tail end of the Boo arcs. Majin Vegeta I was never, ever, EVER a fan of and I think the western fanbase loves him because of his speeches in the dub and because, you know "OMG SO KEWL SAIYAN PRIDE SLAYYYY". As you said, Vegeta has been an asshat and genocidal sociopath for almost the entire Z portion. "oh but he loves Bulma and Trunks" the fans say. Does he though? I've made a comment one of your other vids that Vegeta didn't care about Bulma and his infant son during the Cell arc and by the Boo arc seemed to tolerate his family more than anything because he was directionless in life with Goku dead. He wasn't really redeemed in any sense by the Boo arc. I always found it frustrating how quickly the Dragon Team just...accepts this guy who barely a year ago was responsible for the deaths of 3 of their closest friends (and Piccolo). Bulma comes off looking the worst out of this acceptance by sleeping with the guy who was responsible for the death of her on-and-off boyfriend, followed by her future self telling Trunks it was because Yamcha "cheated". And then, after not seeing a hint of remorse for his actions for years and years they're suddenly shocked that he lets himself be "corrupted" just to gain a power boost. Really? NOBODY saw this coming? Especially Gohan? Who has fought Vegeta and had threatening altercations with him AND has seen his needlessly cruel brutality. Vegeta's only true redeeming act was when he crafted the Genki Dama/restoration of Earth plan. THAT'S when he was somewhat redeemed. Before that? Nah, he just hung around for some reason.

[@spartanq7781]

It doesn't even make any sense why he even knows about the Genki Dama or how to better utilize it than Goku. As Fusion said in the Freeza that technique is pretty inconsistent.

[@wwemusicfanC]

@@spartanq7781 why he knows about it makes sense. He got blasted by it back in his fight with Goku. Given how much time has passed since then, he likely would've heard or learned how it worked. What I don't get is how this genki dama was supposed to be any different from the previous two. The one in the Saiyan arc supposedly had the Earth's energy and on Namek it also had energy of the neighboring stars if I remember right. I somehow doubt the energy of every single Earthling was supposed to surpass that. Unless I'm misremembering of course.

[@nicholassims9837]

At least Vegeta redemption is better than Diamond Tara , Garble and Juniphers .

[@spartanq7781]

@@nicholassims9837 Whoever they are.

[@wwemusicfanC]

@@nicholassims9837 I have no idea who that is.

[@NataliaNeeSama]

Dragon Ball Z Episodes: 291 Dragon Ball Z Episodes if Vegeta had not screw up at something: 50

[@trunksvert8766]

Probably even lower if anyone with saiyan genes didn’t play around

[@PortaTerzo]

I can't really blame Toriyama for recycling ideas, he had been doing this series so long, every week without any outline.

[@Blasckk]

Like... Almost every mangaka ever?

[@PortaTerzo]

@@Blasckk No, take Oda for example. He really has an outline, characters that don't matter but become important later are mentioned 500 chapters before. If Toriyama wrote One Piece, Yonkou wouldn't even be mentioned before Cakeisland Arc.

[@Kisaru1000]

@@PortaTerzo Oda initially did not plan for the introduction of the Shichibukai, and predicted that One Piece would've only lasted about 5 years of syndication.

[@supersaiyangodsupersaiyanm7886]

@@PortaTerzo lol

[@supersaiyangodsupersaiyanm7886]

@@PortaTerzo Oda is an amazing writer. I definitely like him and is work more than Toriyama. But let’s not act like Oda doesn’t recycle things. Let’s not forget that many arcs about the straw hates going from island to Island that just so happen to have a conflict for them to solve. And they many crying princesses and princess stand ins that need to straw hates to save them. They’re done wonderfully almost every time. But it’s still a recycled idea

[@supersaiyangodsupersaiyanm7886]

I was really hoping that you pointed out that even though those people that vegeta killed got brought back, it doesn’t matter because vegeta had help majin buu get free. Buu would later on kill those same people with his eradication attack and if they some how survived that, they surely died when buu blew up the earth. So they were killed by vegeta just to be brought back to face an even worse death because of vegeta.

[@SonicmaniaVideos]

That was brought up...

[@supersaiyangodsupersaiyanm7886]

@@SonicmaniaVideos those ppl vegeta getting brought back to life just to die again by buu because of vegeta was not brought up

[@SonicmaniaVideos]

My mistake then...

[@skyrogue1977]

Vegeta should have some cheese to go with his Whine.

[@tanyaharmon6739]

Dang

[@Drums_of_Liberation]

Notice me Kakarot-senpai.

[@omnimonramone8459]

He'll get plenty of cheese in GT.

[@razkable]

the show lost itself at that point...goku is dead gohan is lame trunks and goten are a joke and everyone else is irrelevant so vegeta decides let me make the show interesting again

[@tanyaharmon6739]

@@razkable vegeta kinda does the same character arc, and his fight with goku is lame so, nah.

[@bellowingsilence]

Thank you for pointing out how silly the dragon ball defense is. If that were relevant, then most villainy in this whole franchise could be totally disregarded.

[@supersaiyangodsupersaiyanm7886]

No to mention that they die again later on by the hands of buu who vegeta is responsible for releasing. They basically die twice in one day thanks to vegeta

[@ryanr20091]

@@supersaiyangodsupersaiyanm7886 nope every man creature whatever is responsible for its own actions .

[@Vitamin-L]

Oh, I'm always ready for a good Vegeta roast!

[@ale-xsantos1078]

Probably the best take on the flaws of how Vegeta is written and I love the tweks you suggested, it's exactly how the character should be and you were right that it's how I see him despite how the story went in the manga I also think that the kind of possession you suggested that Babidi should have is VERY similar to the attack from Devilman, which uses a single drop of "evil" inside your heart and make it grow so much that in the end it tears apart your physical heart. Babidi making someone a slave by overwhelmong them with their own worst desires and then being able to blow them up like he did with those two is perfectly in line with Devilman's power in the original Dragon Ball and it's beyond me why Toriyama would NOT go for that route.

[@jackhamilton9604]

Vegeta is so irredeemable I’ve thought of 2 options that could have been used- 1. Raditz as a replacement- Have after Goku and Raditz die in the Saiyan arc Raditz is forced to go with Goku to Kaio’s as a training partner where they can bond, and in the climax of the arc either Raditz can join Goku, or stay at Kaio’s saying Goku deserves this victory. Then in the Freeza arc Vegeta can stay dead, Popo makes it clear to exclude Vegeta from the wish of reviving everyone and Raditz then joins the main cast and takes on Vegeta’s role for the rest of the series. 2. Less Evil Vegeta- Or have it so Vegeta is less evil. So imply in the Saiyan arc he’s mostly all ego and it’s Raditz and Nappa that have been destroying the life on planets, and the main reason he kills Nappa is because he figures out Nappa has been plotting to get the Dragon Balls for himself and screw over Vegeta. And in the fight he doesn’t come across as sadistic. Then in the Freeza arc have it so he only kills Freeza’s minions, only stealing the Dragon Balls from the Namekians, and he doesn’t plan to kill Gohan and Kuririn, just steal their Dragon Ball. And in the Cell arc he doesn’t kill any innocent civilians, but other than that he’s mostly the same. And as for the Boo arc, include the changes Lance suggested here and that his sacrifice is permanent

[@hatefulgaming1800]

Having Raditz disappear after his appearance always felt weird to me, like you couldn’t do anything else with Goku’s brother of all characters.

[@mitchfletcher2386]

@@hatefulgaming1800 RIGHT?!?

[@Galvatronover]

No have us see how he changed during the time skip between the buu saga

[@crystalfire7x]

As well as not telling Freeza to transform in the arc just cause. While with Cell, he has almost no involvment in letting Cell achieve his perfection. In between story arc he revives the people Nappa killed. Not out of sorry nor any redeeming issue.

[@jackhamilton9604]

@@crystalfire7x Well Lance did say Vegeta telling Freeza to transform was a smart move because Freeza could transform at will so fighting him at his first form only for him to change into a stronger form when he's loosing would have been dangerous

[@2000mphgirl]

ahahahah ive been waiting for this FOR YEARS

[@ryanstrumpfler8115]

Incredible arguments and insight, as always

[@RoninCatholic]

Aside from the Trump Derangement Syndrome potshot. He's usually a lot better than that, both about not making his content too dated and about not dragging in irrelevant things from outside Dragonball when discussing Dragonball.

[@NastalgicCLOWN80687]

He’s not real fan of vegeta

[@CbsOmegaOmniX]

@@NastalgicCLOWN80687 Yeah it’s clear he fucking hates vegeta!

[@SumTr011]

Fantastic dissection. Refreshing to see someone finally criticize this plot point. People are willing to give Vegeta a pass...because he's Vegeta.

[@2000mphgirl]

it's especially frustrating with majin vegeta, i swear it's like most people's favorite version of vegeta, it's insane to me. not even in like a Oh He's So Good As A Villian like people are with characters like freeza, piccolo daimao, saiyan arc vegeta, etc.... no people think it's like a really heroic and great version of vegeta lmao.

[@Godzilla00X]

People will roast Goku for the littlest things but how dare anyone feel the mighty Vegeta can do any wrong

[@gespenst1329]

The characters in the show itself (with few exceptions) also give him a pass.

[@AxelsAndGears]

I may not agree with you, Fusion, but videos that praise DBZ are a dime a dozen here. I respect you for being straight about the flaws of the Frieza, Cell, and Buu sagas and giving fans like us food for thought.

[@Pinkfloyd0729]

It's crazy how many wonders an arc where Vegeta doesn't fuck everything up could've done to make the Majin Vegeta "swerve" more palatable. But no matter what, I just can't hate the guy, damn nostalgia goggles... Great video as always, Lance. I've been looking forward to this one for a while too.

[@justbny9278]

Honestly what sense does it make to justify Vegeta's actions with Sayan Philosophy when said Sayan Philosophy would first and foremost force him out of a quiet earthly life If Vegeta kept his values he would've left earth to go conquer planets and stuff

[@dinogt8477]

He was obsessed with beating goku so he would probably just go to other planets to get stronger which he did in the anime version but that was filler and then he would come back once he feels like he has gotten stronger to fight goku

[@thecartoonfaxuator6878]

I've waited a very long time for you to tackle this topic ever since The Cell Arc Part 12! Worth the wait!

[@ThelronFjord]

I find your deconstruction of Vegeta rant similar to the rant Frank Grimes has against Homer in "Homer's Enemy". If Vegeta lived in any other manga he would've starved to death long ago.

[@nicholassims9837]

Imagine if Frank Grimes ran into Peter Griffin.

[@fenomozo9108]

Man, i think that the BBQ panel is the single most used panel in all this disection! I´m seeing that image in my dreams.

[@MistareFusion]

Haha, the thought definitely crossed my mind when I was editing this!

[@MultiverseOfInfinity]

I think your critiques here are both well construed and are even very intelligent. Tbh Vegeta being the ultimate antagonist of the series makes sense and it could've actually been a good parallel to Goku being the ultimate protagonist if both the storylines of Goku and Vegeta were written better. This is a pretty good video with excellent analysis. Edit: 17:57 COMRADE MISTAREFUSION! :-D

[@dhayris160]

Vegeta in the Cell arc was the worst character in the arc. Him letting Cell reach his perfect form for a good fight, when Goku will be out of the time chamber in a DAY is ridiculous. Frieza saga Vegeta being duplicitous, callous, even a dirty fighter was peak Vegeta.

[@solidterra9277]

IT'S HERE! IT'S HERE!! I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS!!!

[@TomberryPlays]

Thank you! I feel exactly the same. This glorified temper tantrum had always pissed me off. And I did think it was the end, as a kid. I was really mad when he came back later.

[@apureintellectual1959]

This is the most satifying Vegeta video on the interent. I swear, I feel like I'm getting gaslit everytime someone says Vegeta's 'redeption' arc is well written.

[@nicholassims9837]

Iago had a better redeption arc

[@satyakithe3rdbestarcher.153]

sasuke was a better written character compared to begita

[@NethermanMC2]

I was pretty prepared to disagree with you on this topic, but after watching the episode I can't say I did. I'm in no way a hardcore Vegeta fan, but I've always found this part of the Buu Arc to be the best, especially given how convoluted things get after this point. However my main exposure to this arc is the anime, which I feel takes a lot more time to dwell on the implications of this part of the story rather than just moving on like the manga does. I always found Vegeta's arc in this story to be very well handled and powerful, but I think I was, like you said, taking my own more head cannon version of events similar to your alternate scenario rather than taking the story at face value. I always felt like Vegeta wasn't fully responsible because the 'Majin' was making him act more evil than usual, but after examining the story you are right that it is framed like he is always in control. Much like with the whole Bulma leaving Yamacha, a story beat I have come to despise, it is important to examine the story on its own merit rather than anyones interpretation of it. Great video, your analysis always gets me thinking!

[@ZBoy-rc8zf]

Yeah the anime is how u should view dragon ball, who looked at the dragon ball manga anyways

[@MrTimLee84]

Vegeta really should of stayed dead after frieza

[@ryanr20091]

dbz would have been dead if that happened

[@brandonmedina494]

He was supposed to die in the Saiyan arc.

[@spyroG3]

>That title "Why is it taking so long? I should have been famous a minute ago." Recently, it seems to me that another conclusion to Vegeta's problem could be, near the end of the arc in the final battle against Boo, after reviving the good guys, Vegeta is not forgiven for his actions and disappears like in the Fusion Reborn movie. Oh and it makes me laugh that, despite being the one responsible for Majin Boo's awakening, Vegeta says things like "it's time for humans to take responsibility" when they try to make the Genki-Dama. Good video!

[@g1xrider13]

I would say Vegat’s character arc has been done many times since in both animation and live action, so many anime’s that came after Dragon Ball, Star Wars, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Once Upon a Time. A mass murderer is “redeemed” because they do things like risk their lives and sacrifice themselves for innocent people and the good characters we like in the story and they tie their emotional well being to a purely innocent character i.e. they have a kid or they fall in love with one of the heroes. Then when the heroes of the story forgive them the audience usually does, but in really life that totally wouldn’t work because they would still be a mass murderer.

[@RoninCatholic]

Replace "mass murder" with "literally any serious wrongdoing" and you get the basis for Christian morality and an understanding of _why_ you need the willing sacrifice of a perfect innocent to redeem you. Future good deeds don't wash away past bad deeds because you were supposed to be doing good in the first place. Forgiving someone who doesn't deserve it, but seems genuinely repentant, is the other half of this coin. True Godly forgiveness would forgive far worse than what Vegeta did time after time in this story, but doesn't forgive someone who refuses to accept forgiveness even if their offense is slight. Cultural osmosis of Christian principles on sin, repentance, and forgiveness underpins basically all Western media made in the past millennia and much of it from even before then; having vastly different faith tradition, Japanese media often incorporates principles that look alien because, in a sense, they very much are as much as ours are to them.

[@Cloud-dt6xb]

Someone is redeemable when they are willing to own up to their mistakes and fix things all on their own. Zuko, Riku, and Vegeta are all really good examples of how to do it right despite what he says here. Vegeta has the highest body count of the three so his redemption arc fittingly takes the longest to resolve. I was'nt naive to think Vegeta was redeemed in the namek or Cell arcs but they both had instances of showing the good man underneath his anger and ego. Your not supposed to sympathize with Vegeta when he let's Cell go or when he willingly let's Babadi control him, he get's his ass handed to him by Cell badly and then his big sacrifice to stop Buu ultimately ends up being worthless. It's only when he finally accepts working with Goku that his redemption truly starts. In the fight with Kid buu he has to protect Goku for a long time and get brutally beaten and tortured by the creature he allowed to be released. Yet he willingly does it with no prompting from Goku after accepting the state of things and letting his jealousy go. When their wishing everybody back, he also specficially makes sure everyrone he killed at the tournament get brought back and that's why Shenron sees him as good at the end. He knew he screwed up and when given the chance to own up to it he did. So I really don't buy that Vegeta's arc was'nt handled well, the problem is you people are'nt treating him like a charachter and are misinterpeting the point of why Vegeta makes these arrogant decisions. He's not a recycled trope, he's a strong warrior who let's his pride control him and it prevents him from actually succedding, it's not until he let's that go that he starts to truly succed in his goals and get's to stay with the family he made on earth.

[@KittSpiken]

@@Cloud-dt6xb like the general thesis that his redemption isn't at this moment but in the final climax of the Kid Buu fight. But this moment is presented as him taking responsibility for his action and tragically failing. And the set up isn't there. He's a great villain on Namek, who then impregnated Bulma because Trunks had to exist. That relationship happens in a timeskip really doesn't elevate his standing as it lowers Bulma's. He's basically unchanged until Perfect Cell recovers and kills Trunks. Another timeskip happens and this time he does seem to actually be actively attempting to fit be a proper father, but it's barely on the page. The level of Babidi's control is vague enough that you can (I do) assume his influence is an uninhibitor, allowing him to do things he no longer would be comfortable doing, but that doesn't create groundwork for this pay-off that isn't there. And while you raise a great point that this isn't the end of his arc, it is presented as such and when he initially returns his behavior undercutting the moment doesn't change the original presentation.

[@ZBoy-rc8zf]

well thats the same as saying we wouldn't like villain characters in real life, it being a fiction story is exactly what gives it more lee-way

[@smoldream2908]

The Roast of Majin Vegeta has begun! This arc makes me really want to slap Vegeta and tell him to shut up. I have only really felt that with two characters: him, and Anakin in Star Wars Episode III

[@sejadlulic8377]

yes but anakin just needed more time to develop into his dark self. was just too fast paced, but the reasons that he turned and his struggels were donne well

[@Drums_of_Liberation]

@@sejadlulic8377 anakin also needed to have been portrayed aa he was in Clone Wars too and not the whiney baby he was in the films.

[@sejadlulic8377]

@@Drums_of_Liberation he wasnt really a whiney baby. he was a traumatised man that lost his only family member and knew that he would ultimately loose the love of his life (possibly his last connection to the light side ignoring obi-wan) also he had a soft heart but got constantly degraded by his superiors and tempted by a manipulative genius. if the dialogue would have been a bit better and he would have been gettin more time to show his live and driftig to the dark side (f.ex. via a series sth like clone wars) - than he would have been a superb character. great concept, average implementation in my opinion

[@wesley5729]

Sejad Lulic he was Whiney and creepy even before his mother died. As soon as we see him in episode 2 he’s creepy.

[@kevinakers8361]

I loved this one! Well done! Thank you for all you do. Your work is so very under appreciated, and I hope 2021 brings you thousands more views and subscribers!

[@TheInfiniteAmo]

The prime difference between what happens in this story arc and what happened in the Cell arc is that Vegeta's actions in the Cell arc aren't really HIS story. By the very nature of things we know Cell is going to achieve Perfect form. Vegeta's actions to enable that end are somewhat cliche. The Majinn Vegeta turnover is 100% Vegeta's story, and the events leading up to it are grounded in a narrative thread that runs at least all the way back to the end of the Cell arc. It feels intentional, whereas Vegeta's actions that allowed Cell to transform feel incidental and less narratively important.

[@Jose-se9pu]

Vegeta not letting Trunk kill Cell is literally the same thing as helping create Boo

[@namoma4922]

It is however the way the boo arc was structured we could have easily have the heroes fail at stopping the awakening of boo, while they would genuinely act logical and morally Meanwhile there s no argument that the cell arc as it is got as bad as it did only because the heroes acted stupidly and were prideful. The only way for the cell arc to have the possibility of going badly without the heroes acting dumb would be to remove future trunks from the equation, because from the moment they got their warning, they could have nip things in the bud at any moment Meanwhile they had genuinely no way of knowing about boo until the tournament.Babidi was slowly but surely gathering energy and his ship structure made it so even acting logical can help him Boo could have awakened without Vegeta turning evil.His actions made it simpler but unlike the cell arc, the story could have done without if it wished so

[@user-xi5cc9vp9x]

After watching some DBZ videos and reading the comments on said videos, it is so nice to listen to someone who reads the story in its original context. I'm not saying that the comments were bad, they weren't, but with all the recons DB has received over the years it's nice to be on the same page.

[@Sjono]

“Christmas came early for me.” From the way you moaned at 24:50 I’m guessing Christmas isn’t the only thing that came early

[@Freefall347]

MistareFusion: "It turns out, he's not a very good president." Vegeta: "OF COURSE NOT! I'M F@CKING EVIL!!!"

[@ericbrown6203]

When mistare said "I'm tired of it, I'm tired of him and tired of his enabling support group. Can't help but niece that this was subtle dig at Trump lol

[@DemonicRemption]

@Roscoe White That's reference made my day. Thank you. xD

[@Rationalific]

MVGA!

[@ericbrown6203]

@Vegeta was never great

[@renegadeguardian]

@@ericbrown6203 There was nothing whatsoever subtle about it.

[@vazak11]

This was beyond cathartic, thank you.

[@vazak11]

Also grats on 20k!

[@Daxinar0]

Man, I can't describe how exactly I felt when you rightly pointed out everything that falls short with Majin Vegeta's entire arc. I've loved this moment in dragon ball for so long and yet feel immensely satisfied that someone was able to point out all it's shortcomings. I sincerely thank you and hope you have a happy new year. Blooma is still stupid though. (JK)

[@krello_png]

Finally, somebody said what I had been thinking for ages, when I first heard Majin Vegeta's speech I didn't find it "powerful" or "badass", it came off more like he was just whining about not getting what he wants. Felt like I was going insane for how everyone else saw it cause I never got what made it so badass, manga, sub or dub. You've basically said everything that was on my mind about this moment for AGES, have a good one!

[@bigcas78]

The addict analogy is the exact way I see Vegeta. It's through that lens that I see him throughout the android/cell/buu arcs

[@fran3ro]

I'd argue Vegeta is the most consistent character in all DB. - First we see him he's all ego. - Then we find he was under Frieza's grasp and wanted to defeat him. Being far more weak than Frieza he had to use his cunning, going as far as to make a feeble alliance with earthlings. - Goku bekame SSJ AND killed Frieza, the thing Vegeta thought was his right and destiny, so he displaces his fixation from Frieza to Goku. - Mirai Trunks appears and show him there could be more than one SSJ so he tries his hardest using the earthlings (Bulma) for his own wishes. - He reach SSJ, even surpasing Goku so he let his ego took the best of him like when we knew him. - He's defeated by N18 and became angry until he's told about the time chamber. - Again he became even more powerful and again his ego let him be manipulated by Cell into let him do what he does (this is THE part I personally don't like but being product of the overall chaos that was the production of that arc I let it be). - Goku reach a level beyond his own again, and his son goes even further. And Goku, the lowly saiyan who is better than him, dies. He has nothing left, no goal. - In Earth he has what he can grasp, his somewhat family, people who tolerate him, and the only being stronger than him who he maybe could surpass using the best trainig facility in the universe (aside the time chamber), so he stays. - 7 years latter he's acustomed to this, and the all powerfull saiyan-human child has become weaker not being near the warrior his father was (not in power but in spirit), there is nothing to surpass, nothing to heal his ego. - But sudenly the lowly saiyan is back and he can finally put an end to this (remember Goku and Vegeta only fight once before the Buu arc), find a redemption to his ego, his redemption in his own mind. - The fight that was about to happen is stoped by outsiders bullshit and he has to go along because Goku is going. The enemy, and the allmighty god, and the king of hell are all weaklings and this could be finished in an instant before Goku's time on Earth ends. - Goku shows he's even stronger than what has shown so Vegeta uses his last resort, cunningly using Babidi to power up. - Then he fights Goku finding it wasn't going to give him peace of mind, knock him out, and goes "fix" the problem he caused diying for the things he came to care: his family. Not Earth, not the earthlings, not Goku and friends, not even his ego, just his family. - He goes to hell because, you know, irredeemable. But is put on wait so he can come back and fight Buu again, wich he does. - Finally accept Goku is a better warrior and find peace of mind. So what we see is Vegeta being driven by his ego from day one until he accept he's not the greatest. He's at his best when he doesn't let this ego of him take control, aka Frieza's arc. That's when he uses his cunning, when the odds are against him: against Frieza, and against a Goku that doesn't show his true power during Buu arc, because letting himself be "controled" by Babidi to be stronger was cunning, as it was killing the inocents to lure Goku to a fight. Otherwise (when he think the odds are in his favor) he's just an arrogant overconfident prick, and pays for it. The problem doesn't came from how Vegeta is writen, but from how Toriyama wrote the other's interaction with him, accepting him like nothing and all that stuff. So in the end Vegeta is not one of the good guys, but it's the best writen character.

[@bryanc7094]

Being the best written dragon ball character is an accomplishment now apparently 😂

[@fran3ro]

@@bryanc7094 Do your comment have a point?

[@bryanc7094]

@@fran3ro *does

[@fran3ro]

@@bryanc7094 So no, just shit you throwed up. Thanks for the grammar lesson.

[@mechajay3358]

This is the comment I agree with the most. Also in his sacrifice to beat Buu, he did say he was doing it for Goku as well.

[@freakishlist]

thank you for gracefully explaining exactly my thoughts on vegeta. i've held this opinion since day one and until now i thought i was the only one who felt this way. great video.

[@imperators_8700]

You made some great points in this video But I still really love this moment

[@Keiyon95]

I been waiting for THIS moment; I haven't even started the video yet and I'm excited

[@TheRedGoon]

To be honest I couldn't agree more with this video. Like I never cared for this part of the Buu arc because Vegeta's whole deal could be broken down to a child throwing a temper tantrum, and he's screwed the heroes numerous times that nothing about his betrayal feels at all surprising. Growing up, I started to believe Vegeta was the wussiest character of the bunch because after the Namek Saga all he ever did was set everyone else back so he could be a prick, and he never faced any actual repercussions for his actions aside from being told off by certain characters. Honestly if it wasn't for Battle of Gods onwards, I wouldn't have cared all that much for his character.

[@CidAghast]

This was a great episode It feels like you have been (and probably have) building towards this for years

[@digitaltailsmon4096]

well you did it again. You're idea on how to change Majin Vegeta is so much better than the original! Nice job!

[@lPsychoMax]

Every one of these is like a podcast with toriyama and his team talking about the series; from the acuracy of the lore to the smallest details, it's fantastic to just relax to as well! I wonder if MistareFusion has any plans once the dragon ball Dissection has finished? Well besides from a much deserved break :D

[@cosmojerk6191]

He did a video not too long ago talking about the future of the series.

[@TheReelSketchman]

Even though he did an abridged text version on his page. I could see him doing an in depth look at Dragon Ball GT. That'd be cool.

[@lPsychoMax]

@@cosmojerk6191 Aw man I must of missed it! Thanks for letting me know, I'll go look it up ^^

[@KINGBADASS100]

Bulma really should have stayed with Yamcha.

[@marxist-leninist-protagonist]

Poor dolt.

[@Mal-go5dl]

Nah yamcha deserves better

[@underdogchris1753]

This is an interesting take on Majin Vegeta's character and it's pretty interesting since from what I've seen Majin Vegeta is mostly revered by the fanbase.

[@jackhamilton9604]

nearly two years I've been waiting for this day. and it is so worth it

[@Hau5test]

Congrats on 20k subs!

[@CB-wu8vf]

Man, i can already see Lance's rant when Porunga remove that pesky Halo from Vegeta for "being one of the good guys now" PS: Well, that was unexpected...

[@spartanq7781]

That is something that has always buged me. The fact that even a Godly dragon pardons Vegeta is absolutely ridiculous. I can't wait for his rage towards that 10 years from now.

[@HyperJohnua]

I love how everyone thought vegeta would betray everyone for frieza in revival of F

[@craigpeoples9883]

Can't say that I blame them

[@nicholassims9837]

​@@craigpeoples9883Through Vegeta probably hates Freeza enough to never work for him again

[@vcarchangel6226]

Its interesting, because I agree with most points made here & Vegeta's actions are heinous to the point; no one should trust him ever again. Your point about Babidi bringing out people's worst impulses does certainly bow things up more neatly than the story otherwise does. However, Its Vegeta's flaws which make him interesting & I find characters seeking redemption even if they do not necessarily deserve it to be compelling. The biggest issue is Vegeta being sorta just forgiven instantly, after a few acts & he's a good boy now. Similar to many sections of dragon ball, the narrative works holistically, but lacks proper depth to flesh out all the moving parts; sometimes to the story's credit & other times not so much.

[@trosinesss]

One of the reasons some of us loved Vegeta is that we saw the series when we were kids, so we didn’t really analyzed him properly we just saw a strong guy that at the end died for his family. Looking back, yeah he really is the longest lasting villain of DBZ.

[@andrebryant5081]

I love Vegeta more as adult because he is the most human character beside Gohan.

[@ganoninthepit]

As much as I love that arc, you're right. Man, now I'd LOVE to see this arc rewritten with your suggestion in mind; Babidi's magic making your worst impulses control you, instead of Vegeta just choosing the whole thing. A lot of potential lost.

[@SonicmaniaVideos]

The usual Vegeta defense: 1. He shouldn't have stayed dead because... 2. His sacrifice should've killed Boo because... 3. Death of fictional characters who aren't the main characters doesn't matter because... Insert your own excuse.

[@andrebryant5081]

A real defense Vegeta show more human character than anyone besides Gohan that makes us unique by not hiding in his mask by going Majin Vegeta.

[@dinogt8477]

Some of the people that disagree with mistarefusion have a good argument go read them

[@SonicmaniaVideos]

I have read them, I'm only listing the very obviously biased defenses.

[@dinogt8477]

StaticMania oh ok

[@ms.antithesis]

congrats on 20k. ik that you've been doing this for over a decade and i've only found your channel recently. but i'm so glad you're getting some recognition.

[@gjoerulv]

I have probably been waiting for this for 20+ years. This is the best piece of geek culture ever created. Im speechless... It's like you sole the words from me.

[@guardiantree8879]

I do like to think that Babidi’s magic ramps up that evil within your heart to incredible heights. So while you may be able maintain your free will, you aren’t exactly in your normal state of mind though.

[@garrettthomas5653]

I wouldn't really classify Vegeta's decision to help Cell as much of a "betrayal". Vegeta acts completely independent throughout the arc and never maks any sort of pact or temporary teammup with the gang like he did in the Freeza arc. He never really forces himself to rely on others for help, the others just so happen to be around him because of the circumstances. Even Krillin essentially says that the android threat served as an excuse to keep Vegeta in line rather than to actually get him on their side. Vegeta letting Cell reach Perfect honestly isn't much more of a "betrayal" than him threatening to kill Bulma after she suggested they use the Dragon Balls to stop Gero, or him not even trying to save Bulma when Gero blew up her ship. Vegeta made it clear from the start that his intention was solely to fight strong opponents, not help save the world. Vegeta was the lone wolf in this arc rather than a legitimate ally. By comparison, Majin Vegeta ends up killing a bunch of innocent people at the tournament despite everyone genuinely believing he had turned over a new leaf to some degree. That said, I agree that Majin Vegeta is hampered somewhat by the fact that we don't really get to see Vegeta's change. It sort of starts at the very end of the Cell arc, but then completly skips ahead 7 years to him suddenly being a relatively decent family man, then immediately reverts him back to the evil Vegeta we saw thorughout the story up until the tail end of the Cell arc. While I understand that Toriyama probably wanted to get to the action ASAP since this is a shounen, it never feels like Vegeta actually has a legitimate change in character until his sacrifice agaisnt Buu, so his mid-life crisis doesn't land as well as it should. That said, I still like the idea of Majin Vegeta and how it ultimately plays out. I just wish it had a bit more care put into it.

[@sledgethomas9499]

Great video king!

[@joaocalixto1686]

One way I thought of making this seemingly feel more fitting was for Vegeta to actually keep on his word of never fighting against after Cell. Gohan is the one to keep sharpening his abilities, not because he wants to get stronger, but so anything would threaten Earth he'd be ready. Meanwhile, Vegeta steps back from it and focuses his time on being a father, which leads him and Bulma to actually settleling down. Then when we'd discover the threat of Babidi, Vegeta would sell his soul not for himself, but for that power-up he saw on Spopovich, and believing that will make him in the same league as Goku and Gohan so he can keep up, backfiring as like you suggested this leads to his inner demons to burst as he fails to keep complete control and falls into his Saiyan urges