The False Emperor Of Sixty-Three Nineteen - 40K Theories

[@40KTheories]

*Minor Addendum* : So it would appear that Horus didn't have The Talon specifically at this particular point in history, but instead utilised a regular stormbolter. My bad! However, the point regarding Perpetuals being able to regenerate from fatal wounds caused by "mundane weaponry" still holds true.

[@Jagrofes]

40K Theories no, I just listened to it on Audio Book. It specifically says a stormbolter. Horus Rising Part 1 Chapter 2. “...then he[Horus] raised the stormbolter in his right hand and fired into the tumult.” That’s the quote of him killing the false Emperor.

[@40KTheories]

@jagrofes Damn contradicting sources. I guess it's just a regular stormbolter but not specifically "The Talon" at this point in time.

[@RS-Silverstar]

@@40KTheories yeah, pretty sure the books don't reference the Talon until Horus gets his black Terminator armour in Galaxy in Flames

[@uberbosst]

fact, i just read the wiki, and they say before the Heresy Stormbolters didn't exist. in the Spanish version of the book they say he used a Bolter rifle, so i don't know if the original version says something different

[@40KTheories]

@@uberbosst Yeah Heresy era law tends to flip-flop between naming linked bolters as Stormbolters or Combi-bolters

[@NMahon]

"Death to the false emperor!" "What?!!! How dare you?! Heretic!" "No no no the other false emperor" "Oh...right fair enough, as you were then"

[@somemate1050]

"Wait the OTHER false emperor?! Die Heretic!"

[@Voltboy1449]

brother put down the heavy flamer

[@mazareen]

Sounds like heresy to me

[@adriannaranjo4397]

It's so _weird_ to hear Horus and Abaddon being the reasonable ones

[@SultanFilm]

Hours prior to his turn after Davin was pretty reasonable. I think just in general the Luna Wolves of that period were reasonable.

[@Jagrofes]

Horus before his corruption was an actual bro. You should read Horus Rising.

[@BlizzardofKnives]

Even in the Solar War section of the Heresy, Abaddon’s portrayed as much more rational than many of his fellows. More and more, said fellows just want to barter with warp beings and get their personal kicks. Horus…he doesn’t fair so well on that front.

[@cliffnpaige2009]

I actually liked Horus before he was turned.

[@mattward4916]

They stopped being reasonable?

[@megamangos7408]

The fact that everything wasn't plastered in Gold, including the Silver Invisibles, is a clear sign of a false Emps.

[@hisnotsolonely2961]

Custodian: how ghastly (TTS)

[@guardianofthetoasters2323]

But the invisibles were probably specialist normal with insane advanced tech compared to custody genetically modify since childhood and also advance tech

[@AsbestosMuffins]

@@guardianofthetoasters2323 the astarties, even the primaris are probably still not nearly as powerful as the stuff the DAOT humanity could probably whip up, though while they seemed to have the technology to make astarties-like modifications, they haven't been shown to have made them. the astarties were only creations of the remnants of dark age tech after all

[@guardianofthetoasters2323]

@@AsbestosMuffins you know it's amazing to think how humans survived through that shit storm considering they're creations had system annihilation firepower at their disposal. If the prime top build ship or ai was still alive and functional in 40k the imperium probably had to throw everything at it much more so than a black crusade considering a "low" lvl ai of daot can just shut down the armor of any astartes.

[@araknas3981]

@@AsbestosMuffins Oh, DAOT Humanity would absolutely decimate everything. Hell, they used the Terminator armor for reactor cleaning!

[@Big_E_Soul_Fragment]

I was there when Horus slew the Emperor

[@banebeard]

That line gave me chills

[@XxXDBKXxX]

garvey and loken

[@soliar5209]

Eh the emperor is a weeb just like us

[@oatlord]

Convinced they wanted this for real Emperor but quickly realized issues and added in other st uff.

[@cosuinofdeath]

Ahhh there it is

[@dings215]

he was a backup plan installed by the Emperor. in case he failed there'd be an approximation of the Imperium out in the void to carry on humanity. Silver being the color of choice - second place but still almost as good as first place.

[@tomoyboy]

Ahhh yes, and that's why its not on the charts! I like this idea

[@brendanmuller7301]

Really good theory

[@brendanmuller7301]

@@tomoyboy based

[@ohamatchhams]

That theory sounds like something out of TTS 40K rendition of the Man Emperor of Mankind would do

[@SuperMrHiggins]

This is cannon in my mind

[@julianpourdanesh3339]

I mean for a false emperor that guy has the hugest balls for not only killing Horus’s favorite son but then killing horus’s enquiry as well before declaring all out war against a primarch.

[@aphato2770]

Huge slaneesh pleasing balls

[@weldonwin]

The Equerry survived, albeit he'd be terribly scarred and crippled

[@stefanozucchelli5410]

It is easy if you do not know what you are going to fight after that.

[@angrysocialjusticewarrior]

Don't even know where he even got pants big enough to hold such big balls.

[@Snakedude4life]

I mean, Horus wasn’t a ranting raving lunatic.

[@TheSYLOH]

I always just assumed it was just a whole line of Emperors, each taking the name and title of their predecessor. Sorta like how Persian Immortals got rotated out if they died or got sick. So when the 6319 Emperor dies, the 6319 Emperor's son takes over, but pretends he's the original 6319 Emperor.

[@Jagrofes]

It should also be noted that there may have been multiple. Part 1, Chapter 8 of Horus Rising, Syndeman mentions that a PREVIOUS Emperor had defeated and trapped the daemon Samus In the whisperheads.

[@MDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMD]

The Emperor is also never seen. He's invisible on a golden throne the whole time where he eventuality dies and becomes skeletal

[@nikik5567]

John Jones we are all alpharius

[@barahng]

Maybe it just started as a ceremonial thing, they take on the hereditary title of Emperor and whatever the former Emperor's name was. Over the years this became confused and the public just assumed it was one immortal Emperor.

[@professorsponge1554]

I just chalk this up to more 4th degree, interdimensional warp-fuckery. The gods of chaos probably set all this up just to see how Horus would do against something similar to daddy.

[@40KTheories]

An interesting notion to say the least!

[@marq0992]

Yea, there has been instances in the lore where entire star systems just pop up randomly outta nowhere due to the warp. I think 6th edition BRB has an example of this.

[@johnjohnson-hp6hy]

If I was Tzeench, 6319 would be a funny joke. Every time Loken says "i was there when Horus killed the Emperor" the warp giggles.

[@MajinOthinus]

@@johnjohnson-hp6hy And so does Loken.

[@bastrum]

Y

[@mrogface]

Chaos plot to kill Hastur Sejanus, so that he wouldn't stop Horus from falling.

[@two_tone_bandit]

And to groom Horus' legion, get them into the idea of fighting the Imperium.

[@robertnelson9599]

Tzeentch: Just as planned.

[@PaganShredhead]

Exactly. Very Tzeentchian to keep that little Imperium safe, plant the conviction of 63-19 being Old Earth, and having them play their little roles to corrupt Horus after all.

[@CMAzeriah]

Abaddon begged this false imperium to see reason lol

[@tefras14]

Yeah and later he keeps bitching that Horus is not going around butchering everything that moves. You can clearly see how chaos is slowly worming its way in

[@brianjohnson5272]

Ah, Failbadon's origins. Even then still Failbadon

[@---TylerDurden---]

5:59 "No official art of the Invisibles exists". Well yeah, they are invisible

[@crackrat6166]

Best comment!!

[@zachm9202]

You can't see purple.

[@SangTheCryptek]

I first read this story at the beginning of the first Horus Heresy book, knowing very little about 40k. When the 'false Imperium' described here sounded exactly like our solar system, I thought the implication was that this was actually Earth and the Solar System, and while Horus and his forces believed they came from the original Solar System, maybe they actually didn't, and they ended up slaughtering the true origins of mankind in their ignorance.

[@vortex_1336]

That's exactly the impression I got also. That this was actually Earth and Terra is the colony.

[@xuttuh5260]

Also the state of the 6319 empire was way more "pure" and technological advanced, they would have made a better start for the human domain in the universe. What a waste.

[@GabrielLopez-mo2xo]

@@xuttuh5260 I actually would say thats a strike against the theory the home planet of a galaxy spaning federation and the birth place of humanity would be a rotting skeleton with tech buried layers at a time and the technology would be much regressed do to 100s of years of barbarian infighting. I feel like the story is great to make us wonder but in reality Terra seems to resemble earth as i imagine it in the future

[@JL-dance]

I just thought the entire first chapters of the book were to make table top 40k players confused and open to the massive lore dump that is the horus heresy

[@thechazz3230]

@@GabrielLopez-mo2xo The whole Techno Barbarian aspect with Terra is one of the biggest stretchs when it comes to 40k what are you talking about? It's one of the weaker aspects of the lore that doesn't fit with logic. They supposedly lost most of their technology but still managed to fight and even sometimes win against The Emperor's forces of Thunder Warriors, Custodes and Space Marines for 6 thousand years. Terra supposedly lost all of its water by a mix of thievery, Nuclear Explosions, and fucking teleporting it into the Warp. And to top it all off this supposedly happened in the center of a Galactic Human Republic at the homeworld of Humanity, where Big E personally resided. The fact that on Fake Terra their technology is actually somewhat well maintained and they didn't become Techno-Barbarians is nothing but support that it actually was the original earth.

[@Petlin2552]

How to know a false man-emperor: *not having beautiful hair*

[@michaelkimberling7307]

HIS HEAD IS HERESY!! LOATH THE HAIRLESS HEAD FOR IT IS IMPURE!!!!

[@Yusuf-fs4fn]

@@michaelkimberling7307 OUR KINDEST PRIMARCH VULKAN WAS BALD. AND HE STILL LIVES *STOMP* *STOMP*

[@raisttlyn]

Yes yes! Silly man things

[@AsbestosMuffins]

and his palace was only made of silver! What kind of emperor would allow himself to be surrounded by such an inferior metal!?

[@Spunja13]

I fail to find the flaw in your logic

[@Baldermort]

Good stuff as always, Grand Master. :). Loved how you broke it down. :).

[@arbonobsdon6799]

My dad's bald too, you know. not nearly as good a story-teller. big fan, big man

[@Lord_Inquisitor7]

I do so love to see all the cooperation between the 40k youtubers

[@sockmonkeyjg]

I love both your works but I am eager to hear more about the Inquisitor

[@greys_plastic]

Perhaps he was a sensei, an offspring of the Emperor, and through warp trickery aligned his life with that of Big E.

[@thechazz3230]

My new favorite answer. That actually fits very well. But considering many Sensei are practically immortal. It's entirely likely he's still alive.

[@Snakedude4life]

The sensei had psychic powers. Does the story mention the False emperor being a very powerful psyker?

[@MajinOthinus]

@@Snakedude4life Seeing as he protected an entire solar system from the age of strife, he probably had to be at least moderately powerful. Not super powerful though, as his easy defeat shows.

[@TheDirtysouthfan]

Pretty sure the Sensei have been retconned out of existence, never being mentioned since Rogue Trader.

[@thechazz3230]

@@TheDirtysouthfan They still get mentioned on and off. One retarded Inquisitor thought they were some Tzeentch fuckery and killed all of them but 4(Because the author was to lazy to expand on their lore.)

[@BlizzardofKnives]

Is it possible that the False Emperor was a Perpetual, and that Horus didn’t witness his regenerative abilities?

[@cheguevara19]

There's different flavours of perpetuals. Some regenerate, some just live forever. Eldrad Ulthran kills one of the latter near the start of the novel Old Earth.

[@jesseberg3271]

Given that this is the book where Horus gives his, "There are no Gods in the Warp" speech, I think it's safe to say that his knowledge was pretty incomplete. I think a wile purpetual with invisibility technology and disposable body doubles could have faked his death (by actually dying) and snuck away without Horus knowing.

[@mercenarygundam1487]

It's just a fragment of the Emperor. Nothing to worry about except the Inquisition.

[@JL-dance]

This was way before the inquisition

[@willis32]

@@JL-dance Irrelevant, the Inquisition does not believe in a statute of limitations

[@youdontneedtoseehisidentif4939]

" _All this has happened before. And all this will happen again._ "

[@spark050302]

Seeing all the theories that have sprung into the comments is a testament on how diverse and interesting the "smaller" bits of the lore are, although knowing GW nothing will ever come of this or most the various mysteries scattered in the books.

[@porcu12345]

This has always been one of the more intriguing 40K stories. If I had to hazard a guess on the origins, i'd say that it's linked to the ruinous powers somehow. There are really strong parallels between it and Horus's future conflict with the real Emperor. It's also odd that the 4 companies randomly chosen for the assault were lead by all four future members of the mournival. That Horus's favoured son would die and would later be used as fuel by Erebus to corrupt him. On the flip side of that, there's always the potential that it was orchestrated by the real Emperor somehow. The death of Horus's favoured son opens the door for Loken, who'd eventually go on to be the 4th member of the mournival and play a massive role in future events that ultimately aid the Imperium/Emperor.

[@bluedotdinosaur]

I've always thought of it as being the chaos powers conspiring to psychologically prime Horus to turn on the Emperor and Terra. The ruinous powers think and act in such vast scales, over huge amounts of time. Since time is relative in the warp, I think of it as Horus having been marked long ago, from our linear perspective. And so the entire civilization of sixty three nineteen was influenced to become what the Imperium would one day be. And all of it, insanely yet appropriately for chaos, as nothing more than another small push to steer Horus in a certain direction.

[@Zahaqiel]

If one assumes that the "true" Emperor was actually a genetically engineered weapon from the Dark Age of Technology, then he may not have been the only one.

[@SuperMrHiggins]

I mean, that sounds more reasonable than he's a product of thousands of psykers or perpetuals deciding to commit mass suicide and amalgamate into one being.

[@SuperMrHiggins]

Fuck, but I love wh40k. I am looking forward to the wh fantasy reboot tho

[@SuperMrHiggins]

I love how they do the lore... It's all "this is either fact or it's imperial propaganda, you decide." I love it

[@richardcowling7381]

How about ifvthe Emperor is the last surviving "Man of Gold"?

[@kirgan1000]

@@SuperMrHiggins In a normal SF setting geneting engineering make sense, but this is 40k and thousands of psykers or perpetuals make more sense.

[@12NuKe21]

I've re-read the story 2 weeks ago, I was wondering why nobody talks about fake Terra and False the Emperor. Thank you for the video

[@MDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMD]

I honestly thought it was just the authors being a little too cute

[@z.adkins862]

Because it's only slightly less exhausting than Gangster World or Roman World but with CRTV's from ToS.

[@RS-Silverstar]

There's one glaring omission from the theories in this video, Chaos was present on the planet, most notably, Samus, this "Sol system" could simply have been the Chaos gods planting the seeds of the Heresy to come thanks to Erebus and the Word Bearers

[@40KTheories]

Well spotted!

[@captain8993]

Does he have a fabulous hair???? No? Must be a *HERETIC*

[@seelenverkaufer4861]

@Legion of the damned he speaks the true true

[@matics453]

_"I was there the day Horus slew the Emperor."_ -Garvial Loken I think that false Emperor must have used cloning tech. He must have cloned his body and was some how able to transfer his memories onto this new body. That's how he must have been able rule for so long. Great video as always 👌

[@theyoda55]

Maybe the False Emperor was given a psychic vision of the Emperor and it screwed with his head and made him think the visions were his own memories. This also preps Horus's mind to fight Big E (laughing squid-thing in the distance)

[@someonesomething1600]

The false emperor had a false false emperor pretend to be him. How many more false emperors can there be?!

[@RobsonRoverRepair]

"We are yours from of old; but you have not ruled over them, they have not been called by your name" Issiah 63.19 63.19 is the true earth, the original earth. Our earth. We are but man, and the origin of humanity, and Holy Terra is not the true crucible of humanity. 63.19 ultimately is what we become, before our descendants come back to our ruination. Whoever picked 63.19 was a very clever writer and knowledgeable in old scripture and interpretation. Basically we became what we where never controlled by, it is our destany to be the same, but radically different. As if we are the same people but not.

[@xuttuh5260]

That's what I also think. It's basically confirmed that Horus killed off the true and pure origin of humanity, just because he was more ruthless and brutal. Enter grimdark.

[@rogerlawrencewhite1475]

GW has always slipped in bits of various ancient and obscure religous concepts, Like how the 4 chaos gods are negative reflections of the 4 arch angels, how Ahriman and his brother Ormahzd' names are taken from the 2 chief dieties in Zoroastrianism and especially how the whole faction of Chaos ' writing is heavily influenced by the writings of Crowley and Jung. But back in the 80's when GW started creating it was by a group of fanboys who were well read and decided to grab bits of various works to create a sci-fi universe to base their game in. Just the influences of Starship troopers and Dune had profound impact on the story. But your research digging into 6319nwas a suprise, I wonder if Horus Rising was written after the biblical references that were in the Alien movies were revealed, Alien and H.R.Gigers work were influencial on 40k as well , 40k being a sci-fi fanboys paradise.

[@thechazz3230]

@Raa16 Its entirely likely the Emperor wasn't the one to bring The Void Dragon to Mars to begin with. The Void Dragon was said to have disappeared during his fight at the center of a sun with Vaul the Eldar God/Old One of smithing, creator of the Crone Swords (and likely candidate for who Big E actually is.) During the War in Heaven. Due to that it's extremely likely it wasn't the Necrons who shattered the VD. It was Vaul. Meaning the Void Dragon's shards resting at places like Mars and Medusa are because of him. It's likely that's the case considering Terra and Mars aren't Necron Tomb worlds so a shard of A C'tan shard resting on either world is suspicious to begin with.

[@MDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMD]

@@thechazz3230 I believe it's canonical that Big E was or inspired tales of St. George, and considering the visions in the book "Mechanicum", Big E definitely, actually fought the Dragon of Mars on Earth.

[@James-ep2bx]

Eden, mayhaps?

[@pedrokdc]

I believe 6319 was an alternative dimension where the Emperor reveals himself much earlier and does not makes the deal with chaos to achieve super powers

[@zalophuscalifornianus5457]

Maybe some Tzeentch plot in order to somewhat train Horus for the battle of Terra? The chaos gods cant make something as powerful as the emperor himself, which would explain why the false emperor died so easily.

[@pirig-gal]

Idk Tzeentch, but the plan to turn Horus was hatched before the first civilisations of Humanity. I believe that (almost) every big conflict Lunar Wolves / Sons of Horus took part in was a step towards subverting Horus and his Legion.

[@Dethraivn666]

"The Chaos Gods can't make something as powerful as the Emperor himself" Uhhhh, about that. There's this one guy, you might have heard of him, named Horus. Oh, and this one other guy, known simply as "The Emperor." Weird guy, perpetual who lived on Terra since ancient times, seemed to really hate religion, and then he went on this expedition to this really weird planet called Molech and found a Chaos Gate...

[@zalophuscalifornianus5457]

@@Dethraivn666 Horus wasn't as powerful as the emperor, theres a reason he got utterly deleted the second the emperor actually started trying

[@destrorso2505]

@@zalophuscalifornianus5457 ahahahahahah mind bullets go brrrrrr

[@bigbangrafa8435]

This gentleman, is what happens when Tzeentch tries to be funny. I can even imagine him literally taking thousands of years looking for the correct star system, them finding a perpetual, sending him visions of how everything on the Imperium looks, and everything else required to pull this up, just for a quick laugh. *_Slaneesh_*_ : I hope you have a good reason to summon us here Tzeentch, you have interrupted one my biggest orgies ever, even Fulgrim came this time._ *_Nurgul_*_ : Nobody cares about your orgies Slaneesh, you do them all the time..._ *_Khorne_*_ : Yeah, fuck your orgies woman, I just want to know how dare you to interrupt my movie night! I was having so much fun rewatching the Fall of Cadia, and you made me cut It seconds before the Blackstone Fortress falls and blows everything up. I love that part..._ *_Tzeentch_*_ : My apologies to all of you brothers and sister, but this will be worth It. I am here tonight proudly announce that Horus Lupercal has officialy encountered the IMPERIUM OF MAN! Hahahahaha..._ *_(AFTER A LONG PAUSE, THZEENTCH IS STILL LAUGHING...)_* *_Khorn_*_ : That's It?_ *_Nurgul_*_ : It wasn't even funny..._ *_Slaneesh_*_ : Your catarsis about It is really disturbing dude, you should find help._

[@thishonestgrifter]

When Slaneesh tells you you need help, you REALLY need help.

[@Rapier2012]

Not sure the exact fit for the timeline, but is it possible he's one of the lost primarchs? A defect could explain him thinking he IS Emps, and in fact theres some parralels with other legions like the Blood Angels and the rage, thinking they ARE their primarch. Though a defect concerning memory would make alot more sense, maybe in the Omophagea.

[@Sigmar_Heldenhammer]

That’s an idea.

[@MrBurningDonkies]

Sticking with my Men of Gold theory....The emperor betrayed the rest, plunged mankind into a war with their own machines and waited to sweep up....This was just another surviving man of gold.

[@JL-dance]

I always thought the false emperor was just a narrative device used to throw the reader off guard

[@okristudio3152]

Yup

[@doomguy19931]

That too.

[@carlosthejakl8493]

Yeah definitely

[@spiritvdc5109]

Ultimately that's exactly what he was on a meta level, the only question that remains is how tf are we supposed to explain it in-universe lol

[@Tombking2]

It sure did throw me off guard

[@95keat]

I remember when first reading this book I was incredibly confused throughout the entire thing

[@oldeskul]

I had often thought about that. One conclusion is that the false emperor may have been preserved thought warp shenanigans by the daemon Drachnien(I know I misspelled that) considering that the Luna Wolves had to turn around and bring the world back into compliance where some of them witnessed one of their number get possessed by the daemon.

[@surtaandume_psykermystyk4010]

That was Samus, a Daemon Prince of Chaos Undivided. Just saying.

[@jamescousins9216]

The idea that 6319 is actually Earth and Terra is just some other world is something I have to admit I don't entirely buy. The metaphor for me seems more solid the less 'real' it is. If 6319 is Earth, then what is Terra? Why does Mount Everest exist there, why is it even called Mount Everest? Why does The Emperor have so much ancient earth historical artifacts and technology, why do the continents look the same, *what happened to the fucking oce-*... See what I mean? Warhammer has always loved its thematics and disdained great realism. So starting the Horus Heresy novel series by, as the pinned comment so fittingly says, Horus slaying the Emperor, is just perfect. But that's all it is. The Issiah 63.19 connection is something fitting, yes, but as I've outlined above it only works as part of the broader metaphor. One where the normal human species is being overtaken and conquered by their own transhuman immortals. One where Horus presides over the death of the dream of a humanity unified and ascendant again.

[@owenbevt3]

Either one could be the real Earth and either one could be a huge Dark Age earth thempark like Fenress is implied to have been a notch myth theamed one.

[@jamescousins9216]

@@owenbevt3 I highly doubt that's actually the case, but there's enough disparate pieces of canon, like Terra's location and the Master of Mankind theory that the Emperor is actually just a DAOT psychic bioweapon, to string that into its own settings and themes. Instead of a galaxy relying on the seeds of older expeditions and experiments, it's much more focused on 'survivors living in the ruins of things their minds can no longer comprehend'.

[@magnuscoles5010]

@@jamescousins9216 and also mars, titan, jupiter and all other planets in the solar system have been mentioned in the lore, so yeah this theory is bullshit and heresy

[@lynnusuk2092]

Could just be chaos influencing the false emperor to design the planet to be identical to terra not like planet wide terraforming pun intended is off the menu seeing how the mechanicus can drastically convert planet into forge worlds. As a test to see if Horus had any hesitation of destroying something similar to his father’s empire with enough justification

[@jamescousins9216]

​@@lynnusuk2092 I both can and can't agree with that. See, Pre-40k Chaos is... a bit of an odd duck to say the least. The "modern" line of daemons and the clearly defined four don't exist yet. Their existence in the minds of humanity are far more ephemeral and vague, which leads to the more overlapping and customizable stuff seen in the Daemon of the Ruinstorm army list, independent/"Undivided" daemons like Shaitan, and the many names and forms of worship done among both human and alien worlds. Their power is actually quite weak. But because they're "smaller", they can take more of a personal hand in matters. Notably Erebus, a man whose very name is stolen from a child he murdered as a nameless street rat on the orders of the directly communicating Four, and took his place. And 63-19 is most definitely host to chaos worshipers of Nurgle at the very least. However, the original "Emperor" of 6319 is said to have bound the undivided daemon Samus within the Whisperhead mountains. So while The Four could have played a part in setting up the fall of Horus even as far back as the first battle, I don't think it's accurate to say the "Emperor" was in on the joke.

[@johndane9754]

This just makes Imperium's analogy to the Holy Roman Empire that much closer if that world Horus went to war with was the true Earth.

[@barahng]

Hah, that's rather clever.

[@jmackmcneill]

I thought a key thing was that 6319 resembled the *later* Imperium, complete with superstition, cults, and Imperial Church, and *not* the Imperium of the Crusade. That makes me think it was a Warp influenced microcosm of what was to come, a living, breathing analogue to the visions Horus would soon see. Also, as has been noted in other comments, the False Emperor could have just played possum after he "died" and sneaked off...

[@commandante6709]

It's really starting to look like the Emperor was just a very intense, very motivated member of the perpetual race developed by the former human empire of the Dark Age of Technology. The perpetuals throughout the story not only know him from the past, but also indicate that at least some of them were geneticist colleagues of some sort. We know that the Emperor spent possibly thousands of years in the warp, and came back with previously unparalleled psychic power. However, he didn't do this until thousands of years into his plan. I think he started with the baseline of being a perpetual, joined some kind of grandiose plan whose ultimate goal was the reestablishment of the galactic human empire, had a falling out and initiated some kind of takeover. He went rogue on his former colleagues and formed a new goal of basically becoming a mini chaos god as part of his own plan, causing an obvious rift amongst he and his race of altered humans.

[@cosuinofdeath]

Most perpetuals saw the emperor as a tyrant and did not join him in his so called bettering of mankind. ollanius pious a true perpetual even older than the emperor himself calls him “That Thing”

[@MDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMD]

Malcador is almost certainly one of E's perpetual allies.

[@JackalMJ]

@@MDMDMDMDMDMDMDMDMD then why does he not return from death?

[@doomguy9049]

@@JackalMJ he gave his soul to the Emperor and then evaporated. I guess GW could find a way to revive him if they wanted, just like vulcan, but what would they do with him?

[@JackalMJ]

@@doomguy9049 thanks for the reply. One thing I find really weird is that the Emperor is made out to be almost a god. Super tough, strong, smart, best psyker etc. Yet Horus owned him. I know Horus was demon buffed but this was grand daddy Emperor.

[@M0U53B41T]

Emperor created a clone of himself to start using for the primarch project, said clone escaped. Or the 'false' Emperor created a clone of himself, raised it as his son, who created a clone, etc etc. Could be just someone who happened to stumble onto the right STC or tech and actually did shepherd his people thorugh the dark times

[@mdandrews]

“You mean there is another Imperium, much larger and more powerful than my own out there in the stars?” The false Emperor asks looking towards the stars. “Always was.” Horus replies as he shoots the false emperor in the back of the head with his combi-bolter.

[@dogalrorn]

What matters is that I vouched for Garviel Loken as the next member of the Mournival.

[@DeuxExNoir]

it has been three years and i only *just* now realize why Tzeentch turned Kitten's armor silver *He was serving a False Emperor in the eyes of the Chaos Gods. **_As an Invisible._*

[@nickbaspaly6239]

Oh man I listened to this when it was new and could not remember who's channel it was on , been dying to hear this story again!

[@skulltakertheflamingswordo5792]

Something also to note is that the people of this world might have possibly been at least partial Chaos worshippers, due to their worship of the daemon prince Samus. Also, due to the fact that this system was cut off by warp storms, it is possible the people there might well have been driven mad and simply come to believe that their capital world was Earth. When Loken goes to kill a soldier, the soldier begs for a blessing so that the gods will accept him into some form of heaven. While it isn't directly stated that these are the Chaos gods, with everything else that happens, this is heavily implied. The False Emperor might not have been viewed as a god by his people, but instead as some mediator between the people and the gods, the kind of puppet ruler that Chaos always wants. With the Chaos gods watching both them and the true Imperium, this other Imperium might well have been set up as some kind of possible rival and yet another plot to stop the Emperor, with the gods whispering in the False Emperor's ears about ideas that would lead him to set up a state that outwardly looked very much like the real Imperium of Man, so as to create a facade of legitimacy. Or it could have been just another stepping stone in Chaos' plot to corrupt Horus, which is indeed how things panned out.

[@CidGaius]

Plot twist of the highest heresy : He actually was the true emperor

[@lockdown8226]

Used silver instead of glorious gold definitely a hectic

[@mahmutyordamli4912]

I heard in old lore big E used silver colored armor.I didn't saw it with my own eyes though I am joined the warhammer in 8th edition

[@Sophiewimmer443]

What if the false emperor was a survivor of some disaster on a ship in the warp which flung him back in time to before the great crusade and thought incorrectly that he was destined to become the emperor and didn't know who horus was because he was born post great scouring?

[@theemissary1313]

Alivia Sureka was impaled by Horus and left for dead, but later was shown to have survived. So the idea that the 'false' emperor may have tricked horus into believing he was dead and still be out there somewhere is an interesting loose plot thread. Be interested to know if anyone actually recovered his body.

[@uberbosst]

when the imperium killed the last rebel forces on 63-19 the found out they were worshiping some sort of gods, maybe those where Chaos gods. couldn't the Chaos gods have gifted the false Emperor with eternal life so he would expand their domain's?

[@xuttuh5260]

I think this symbolises something along the lines of "the devil was brought into the world", as the demon only appeared after the original system of 63-19 had been destroyed. The remaining rebels then most likely were tempted by chaos in their despair.

[@surtaandume_psykermystyk4010]

Samus is the only name you'll hear. Samus. It means the End and the Death. Samus is the man next to you. Samus is here!

[@barahng]

I just assumed they had found some Dark Age tech that allowed biological immortality. It's really not that hard to imagine considering the level of tech pre AoS humanity had.

[@Matt-md5yt]

Intresting topic today, thanks for covering my friend.

[@bjarkev1296]

The entire planet smells like a chaos trap. I think this is a stage prepared for Horus and the Lunar Wolves. There was also monestaries on the planet so the false emperor was not such a staunch enemy of religion, which speaks against him following big E's goals. So I think that the false emporor was just a puppet of the ruinios powers.

[@gooseland8750]

I’m also pretty sure sixty three-nineteen was originally named terra

[@40KTheories]

I've seen people saying that, but (unless I was being _utterly_ blind) I couldn't see any mention of that within Horus Rising itself (hence why I didn't bring it up)

[@xuttuh5260]

@@40KTheories I remember to have read Loken contemplates about 6319 having been called Terra by its inhabitants, which the crusaders of course ignored in rejection.

[@skepticalmagos_101]

@@40KTheories Yeah It wasn't mentioned as Terra, but considering the other similarities it wouldn't be surprising if it was Terra . The Real imperium probably felt cuntish and gave the planet the finger by replacing its name with a dull number.

[@neonparadox6967]

@@40KTheories Its definitely in the audiobook, I remember they state they cannot have two

[@40KTheories]

@@neonparadox6967 As i said, i might have been utterly blind in that regard, but I didn't want to include it if i couldn't find it for certain myself :)

[@chenli9778]

Is it even Possible that this imperium is some how from a parallel Universe that teleport from the warp to Mock Horus ?

[@GabrielLopez-mo2xo]

I honestly would be happy with that as cannon

[@chenli9778]

@@GabrielLopez-mo2xo I mean if that planet was the parallel earth from another universe or even a alternate time line that Emperor never exist, or That False Emperor was actually Emperor of Mankind in his alternate world, then this is so ironic as the Horus was not Traitor Just Yet.

[@chenli9778]

@@GabrielLopez-mo2xo And even more terribly thinking, what if Terra was actually Not Earth of Human Origin, and this planet was?

[@TheJarric]

there is canon example of orcs doin time travel so posible

[@chenli9778]

@@TheJarric Well this is rather than a parallel world travel

[@HiroTheWanderer]

Perhaps it was some kind of foreshadowing hallucination of some kind...

[@antonycooper2419]

here is a thought, the Aquila has 2 heads and we know that he (the emperor) worked in the lab to make the primarchs, so this could be the guy that had helped the emperor, and then made the same bargain with the dark gods to leave and build his new world if he makes the explosion that scatters the pods? @40k Theories

[@xuttuh5260]

I think that 63-19 was the true planet earth. The descriptions in the books seem to imply exactly that.

[@ravenstrategist1325]

no, it could had simply be a terraformed planet made to resemble Terra.

[@xuttuh5260]

@@ravenstrategist1325 the same could be said for the solar system from where the emperor of mankind started his crusade...

[@jonathantheslow]

I was thinking that he maybe was a daemon of some sort. It is possible that he was a warp entity that knew of the Imperium and tried to imitate it, and that would explain his longevity.

[@phycodude101]

This was the very first 40k audio book I ever listened to and was what got me interested in the universe as a whole. I'm glad to see this.

[@danielmclellan1522]

My personal headcanon is that Planet 6319/Other Earth is the world that (through a cruel twist of irony) is later known as Nova Terra, during the eponymous Nova Terra Interregnum.

[@maxwheaton5865]

The real event I'd like to know more about, is the Omnitask Blasphemy of 998M41. Only reference I have is in AdMech special Dominus Edition

[@40KTheories]

I could always take a gander at that, see if anything comes up ;)

[@maxwheaton5865]

@@40KTheories you have my thanks then sir!

[@AnarisShadowsong]

Having just reread this book... the false Emperor throne was also a "golden" throne. Couldn't it have served a similar life support function?

[@UGNAvalon]

Something that I’ve always wondered about, and could possibly make for a decent alt-history vid: What if the Great Crusade didn’t start on Terra? What if it started on another world that was stable during/after the Age of Strife, and/or had sufficient technology to kickstart/maintain a Crusade-level force? (For example, 6319, “Necromunda” (before it got destroyed), or any of those other STC-blessed worlds.) For one thing, having a more-stable/more-technologically-advanced homebase would allow the Crusade to start more easily, without relying on outside powers like the Martian Mechanicum or the Lunar Gene Cults. As a result, there’d be less/no spread of the Machine Cult, which would affect future technological development. Having a stable homebase would also preclude the need to grow an army dedicated to Unification Wars, meaning no Thunder Warrior equivalents, and possibly a quicker/smoother development of Astartes (especially since the world wouldn’t be an irradiated hellscape like Terra). What do you think?

[@ShadowWulfGaming]

I still like to imagine Horus curb stomping the Emperor Palpatine from Star Wars

[@dantejones1480]

I think it was either one of the Emperor's Sensei, or an Emperor from another universe, dimension, or timeline.

[@ja-vishaara]

Sejanus as hyped up by Loken: _The perfect specimen of a marine, near unrivalled warrior and a diplomat of equal measure_ Sejanus in the book: _gets killed on a diplomatic mission by fucking up in a way even an administratum clerk could have known to cause trouble_

[@FoundingChambers]

Great book and awesome intro into the heresy series. I was always a little confused on the false emperor thing and why it wasn't more discussed on the similarities of the true imperium, so I was glad you covered this a little! 🤘😁🤘

[@HunterSentinel]

I like the idea that the false emperor was powerful perpetual psychic who unknowingly leech/peak at the true emperors psyche and stuff and started acting like him as well. It would explain so many coincidental parallels, stylistic similarities, and psychological/personality profiles.

[@Ghostwolf82]

Regarding the longevity question, the false emperor could have used cloning technology, similar to what Fabius Bile would later on use, transferring his mind to a new clone each time the current starts to fail.

[@dsagent]

It would be funny if that actually was the real emperor.

[@Redemptorchapter]

Every saga has a beginning...

[@Redemptorchapter]

Though I have always thought the ultimate smack would be that 6319 actually is Earth and the Imperial Throne World of Terra was the clone world.

[@sstsaldana24]

Once again great stuff as always!!! Thanks for all the hard work!

[@Kareszkoma]

Or, something that was excluded. Maybe the Imperium wasn't the Emperor's idea, but one of his companion?

[@darkpit37]

GW missed a huge opportunity to make a 23-19 joke.

[@abdullamaseeh5828]

Dan Abnett FORESHADOWING the end!

[@dwreanchinotan]

6:25 silver knight of slaanesh? it all sounds like chaos preparing horus for his role to me.

[@vraska8799]

My favorite part of sexty-three nineteen was Loken soloing a death room and Vipus goes like : "that's generally called showing off". I can't help but imagine everybody looking at him: >_>

[@PhynixDS]

Talon of horus was part of the new suit the dark mechanicus had produced during their bargains with horus in false gods or galaxy in flames not horus rising, because it also melted the throne the false emperor was sitting in, possibility of it being a volkite of highest artifice, a plasma pistol or an artificer melta pistol, but horus's weapon's loadout was never hinted at during that portion of the story.

[@40KTheories]

In which case, whoops, my bad! >_< although he is described as using a storm bolter, even if it isn't the Talon specifically. As such, the point about Perpetuals being able to regenerate from mundane weaponry still holds true, nonetheless.

[@PhynixDS]

@@40KTheories there wern't too many John Gramaticus running around in the open during the heresy or just before, they we're mostly keeping a low profile or working in secret with the Kabal , I doubt that the Imperium would let Perpetuals run around unchecked if Malcador would have any input behind it... >:3

[@kdelfino1767]

Funny enough, I always thought that 63-19 with its armies that were like scaled down versions of the astartes and its human emperor relying on trickery and invisible assassins was meant to be the dominion from starcraft, or at least very similar to the dominion.

[@hadhod5274]

Emperor with a sock on his back... WE'VE GOT A SIXTY-THREE NINETEEN!!

[@davew8841]

At the moment, I'm 5 audiobooks into The Heresy, and never having read any 40K before a few months ago...despite having had a gist of the lore for years...I was more than a bit confused with the opening battle of 6319. It was a great way to start....I appreciate why the first book is rated so highly.

[@UGNAvalon]

Ok, now I want to see a video on “All known Perpetuals, and their fates”.

[@Jpipooly]

63.19 was a plant by The Emperor to see how the Warmaster would react to warring against the Imperium

[@robinderoos1166]

63-19 secretly was a world within the warp, showing a warped reflection of the anathema as the first step to corrupt Horus. Thats why Samus was chilling there

[@Chaossoul87]

Why wouldn't Samus be there? Samus is the man beside you.

[@manuelledu1267]

What if the false emperor is a Sensei that used some genetic memory of his ancestor to build this new imperium. Plus, was the imperium of man, the title of emperor of humanity were existing 5000 years ago when the perpetual leaved ?

[@toddsmash]

Just started reading Warhammer 40K and loving it. Horus Rising has been a great book so far.

[@TacHatGaming]

Literally listening to the Horus Rising book right now and decided to got watch some youtube and this popped up.

[@jesseberg3271]

I don't want to ruin it for anyone, but foreshadowing, sure, Warp echos, fine, but let's be honest here: Dan Abnett wanted to start the whole thing off with a joke, and he did so beautifully.

[@spartnmarcen5110]

I loved this look at Horus. You got both sides of him unlike the later books.

[@silversurfer8818]

I would love to see an orbital view of Sixty-Three Nineteen, with some slight continental drift still looking like earth does today. The imperium would ofc not have a reference as nothing, or at least very little from old earth remains. Could explain why so many historical locations/regions are misspelled, because the original source isn't derived from "terra". How they lied that the oceans were evaporated by wars, when in fact the oceans never have existed at all! And why there are no evidence of the emperor in our timeline, because he was never here on the real earth! that he himself is simply a construct made during the dark age of technology!

[@brendanmuller7301]

Nah because we have other perpetuals from terra who have been said to have never actually left the planet and have been there during early human history, to the modern day of our world, and the far future of 30/40k. Terra is earth. I much prefer the theory that 63-19 later becomes the planet known as "nova-terra" during that whole curfuffel

[@bloodraven7237]

More knowledge for the chapter

[@soliar5209]

Yes brother

[@leeboy29680-ol7gf]

i think he was just a regular guy who had forgotten tech, like the gravity guns his guard used

[@TheSMC1988]

I've been deep in 40k lore for over two decades and the begining of Horus Rising is by far the most confused and unanswered I've ever been lol

[@hughgedney3393]

A very extremely awesome video as always 40k Theories.

[@neogokiMK00]

I feel like there should be a mention of the forces of Chaos. A mini-Empire similar to the Imperium of Man, like a parody or Joke. Smells like the Tentacled Blue Nerd all over, maybe his idea of a Joke. Or a testrun for the Heresy.

[@rogerlawrencewhite1475]

Its possible that a perpetual was displaced in time by the warp . One problem is that in the 5,ooo yrs he had only conquered a system unlike how the Big E had taken half the galaxy in under 500 yrs. Admittedly I was thrown off by this videos title and thought that this was something I wasn't familiar with only to realize it was from Horus Rising. Thanks again for another great video, last time I was this early the Old Ones hadnt even created the Krork yet.

[@CobaltMilsim]

Wasn't Sindermann an Iterator rather than a Rembrancer? Loved trmhe video in any case though! Always wondered why no one has talked about the false emperor before!

[@magnusthered8652]

The last thing you said is indeed pretty interesting. "I was there the day Horus killed the emperor"