The FGC Dark Ages Were VERY Real!

[@impulse_xs]

Soul Calibur 2, Tekken 5, Neo Geo Battle Coliseum, DOA4, KOF 2002, Virtua Fighter 5… its really just a “dark age” in the sense that it was harder to play offline due to smaller player base/community, in an era where offline was often the only way to play against others(depending on the title).

[@GuntanksInSpace]

I'd also add that depending on where you were at, the arcades slowly declining were a contributing factor to that as well. But at least, indeed there were good stuff holding the fort.

[@ericp631]

Dark age doesn't mean nothing is happening. Even in the real dark ages there were bright spots and advancements being made. What it means is an overall decline, being a shell of it's former self.

[@psychobluesfxt]

Tekken Zaibatsu was what I usually frequented in the Dark Ages. Made friends that I still talk to as of today, and I first joined TZ in February 2005.

[@GuntanksInSpace]

Same actually. TZ at the height of its activity was a great resource to learn T5 (and even T4 back then).

[@raionbomber75]

Yo Evil Zone was peak simplicity fighting game, proximity EVERYTHING. I emailed Yukes about porting the game and the kindly told me it was out of their hands lol, probably because they were working on WWE games at the time.

[@PowerQuestGB]

James you are a treasure trove of FGC and gaming history. I am near my 40s and everything you said about the dark ages in '09 is the truth. The perfect storm for the dark ages of fighting games, arcades shutting down, no online and JP receiving more exclusive content than the US in fighters. It was so bad in those dark ages I would practice motion inputs on my Game Boy Pocket (which i still have!) James if you ever write the book on anything FCG I would fly to get the book signed!

[@RairyuuSho]

Hi, James! Long time watcher here. Great episode! I'm just commenting since you saw Evil Zone. I recommend giving it a look. Its actually quite fun, IMO. It's Japanese version is called Eretzvaju, and I prefer it more than the US version because of the intro and the voice acting is less 90's cringy dub. Anyway, yeah it has only an attack and a block button. Moves are done by tapping a direction + attack button. Generally speaking, Forward + attack: projectile Up + attack Forward moving strike (character dependent) Down + attack: Throw. Changes to a ranged throw when outside normal throw distance Back + attack: A slower projectile that stuns the opponent Double tapping the attack button during these moves will change the move into an anti sidestep version. Theres also a launcher with down, down + attack, a rush move with forward, forward + attack, a jump attack that crossed up automatically when done close with up, up + attack, and you're super which is done via back, back + attack. Sidesteps are done via double tapping up or down, and you can maintain that sidestep by keeping that direction held down. There are different cinematic variations of the attack, all inspired by anime tropes (dodge left and right, from below camera angles, etc) Where it shines, IMO, is the single player campaigns. Each character is basically an archetype for that genre, and their single player campaign and music reflects that. Each fight in single player is designed like a weekly episode of that anime or show, with narration and previews for the next episode just like the old cartoons / anime. For example, Danzaiver (my main) is the stereotype for the 70s and 80s Japanese tokusatsu Space Sherriff shows. His alter ego, Sho Mikagami, is a hot blooded good guy who wears a jacket with a popped collar, has his morphing unit on his wrists, and uses laser guns and calls back up from his spaceship (a giant laser cannon). His super is him doing the space sheriff sword finishers from those shows, down to the windup and repeating the strike 3 times for dramatic effect. The list goes on. Setsuna is a darker magical girl, and her music and campaign reflects that. Keiya's campaign is designed to be like a horror mystery show. Midori's campaign is designed like a shonen / martial arts show. Its all great. I hope you can give it a look. And, yeah, I'm from the Philippines. I know EXACTLY what and where that building is :D. Its still up btw, only with less of that bootleg activity going on.

[@UltraChenTV]

That definitely sounds very interesting. Wonder what the best way to try it is? Is it just emulation? Also, do I need to be able to read the text for the campaigns? Or is the Japanese version okay? And I love that everyone from the Philippines knows exactly which building I’m talking about. Hahaha. That’s so funny. Didn’t realize my old roommate was visiting such an infamous place! 😂

[@part-timeprotagonist7037]

@@UltraChenTV Big Eretzvaju fan here. Outside of getting a Japanese PS1 and the original Japanese disc, the only real way to play the Japanese version is via emulation. The Japanese version is definitely the better version to enjoy the game: you get the stellar Japanese voice acting from people who would eventually become industry titans and the vocal OP, "Kiss in the Dark". Drawback is that it's you need good command of Japanese because the menus aren't EN-friendly, and the story modes are essentially watching raw, unsubbed anime episodes.

[@TrapsetJiuJitsu]

Rival Schools and Ergheiz were my favorites during this time period… but mainly because of their mini games haha

[@cutefenns]

My favorite "bad" ps1 fighting game is Destrega. It's an arena fighter but it's from a top-down perspective. There's 3 attacks + jump, and your 3 attacks change depending on how close you are to the opponent. When far away everyone shoots magic stuff at each other and then up close is physical attacks. There's built in RPS because certain buttons beat other buttons, like a weapon triangle in fire emblem lmao. The cool thing is that you have a magic meter that refills over time and you can spend that meter to shoot really big spells and do button combos to change how the spell acts, it's neat! It's also really broken and easy to infinite people in the corner with close range attacks lmao oh well. The story mode is fully voice acted with some pretty funny performances though.

[@vulcan422]

Funnily enough the Dark Ages were what helped kickstart my drive to start really learning how to play fighting games. Started with CVS2, SF15AC, DOA2U, and GGXX#R back on OG XBL, met some of my best friends through those games then kicked it into high gear once Hyper Fighting rolled around on 360. And yeah, those were some truly dark times to be a fighting game enjoyer. Had to put up with things like KOF Maximum Impact, Tao Feng, and the 3D Mortal Kombat games.

[@TheMdw77]

Dude.....as an avid fighting game player, yeah, those were indeed the Dark Ages for sure. I came up in the real golden era of the genre. I'm 47 yrs young and MANY of my free time and hrs were spent in the arcades just testing myself. Won a lot and lost as well but the thrill of competition and sharing the knowledge was and is invaluable. The friendships....the rivalries...the venturing to new and unfamiliar territories to seek out the stronger players there....man what a thrill. These young bucks will NEVER know that exhilarating feel of SF2/CE/Turbo HF/ST, KI 1 and 2, Tekken 1,2,3 and 5 DR, MK 1,2 and 3/Ultimate, XMen vs Street Fighter, CVS 1 and 2....I can go on and on. Love hearing the reminiscing of what was. I'd love to wax poetic with you one day and just talk about the Great Old Days. And yeah, I know all about SRK and Tekken Zaibatsu as well lol. Just subscribed man.....just LOVE talking about it. Currently playing T8, SF6 and 5 and 4. Marvel 3....currently have some replays on my channel if you want to see. Good content as always James and I'm looking forward to EVO this weekend. Cheers man and....um....."Fighting games are something so great"😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎

[@AkibanaZero]

FGC Dark Ages meant that we were holding our breath for a Capcom made 2D fighting game based on an anime called History’s Strongest Disciple Kenichi (great anime but the game passable at best)

[@psychobluesfxt]

Nothing anyone else can say will sum it up better than this.

[@AkibanaZero]

@@psychobluesfxt what's more depressing is that I genuinely tried to find the competitive spark in that game lmao

[@psychobluesfxt]

@@AkibanaZero They don’t know how much copium we had to huff back then for any new fighting game. My undergrad FG life was Tekken DR on PSP, Soul Calibur III, NeoGeo Battle Coliseum and KOF2006 for new fighting games. Good luck finding anyone who’d see you in CVS2 et al. SF4 not only revived SF but it told other FG devs to shape up now that the king was back. Ono might have a spotty record overall but he was the only one at Capcom trying to make them believe in the genre beyond licensed crap like Kenichi or Sengoku Basara X

[@ILOVEPANCAKES2K]

Great commentary with Logan at Evo! You two are a great team!

[@lazzygnome4060]

I really liked that SNES Justice League game when I was a kid 😅

[@DD01880]

SF was in the darkages after SF3 3RD STRIKE. I agree with James Chen on this topic. Capcom couldn't do anything except releasing sh.tty SF version over and over. This is where I left the fighting game arcade scene after spending my youth playing since the early 90s. This is pre EVO before there is such thing as EVO, developing carpal tunnel being the best player among friends and siblings. HOLY SH.T, James! You even got the DC Justice League which created by Blizzard I had as a kid when my father bought the game. I was a beast at that game with all the characters on SUPER NES. Grew up playing SF, MK, KI and Tekken was such a nostalgic reminiscent of the old days.

[@Mclucasrv]

I think I never felt it because I was in south america playing KOF,tekken and Anime games.

[@impulse_xs]

Only capcucks experienced a “dark age” tbh

[@simplastic]

Don't forget to hit that like button to support our friend James get more exposure!

[@AdversaryOne]

I just subscribed bro. Keep up the good work.

[@SeiryuuX]

I will say that one thing that one made the Dark Ages a little more barely was emulation and Kaillera netplay. Sure, it was laggy as all hell, but it was a godsend during that time frame

[@coryharris1939]

Great video, really struck a cord with this one.

[@psychobluesfxt]

Who can forget Fight Club the game?

[@tee_saw]

my gosh i have vague memories playing evil zone on the ps1 demo disc

[@Korgoth9]

Eretzvaju mentioned!

[@littleakibagames]

We did get one release of CvS Pro, on the PlayStation. It launched for $19.99 and vanished off the earth almost immediately.

[@UltraChenTV]

Man. It was so short I don’t think I ever knew. Hahaha!

[@xblindx]

You missed arcade infinity and mike watson’s super arcade :3 I believe Maximilian and Sherry may have played there

[@UltraChenTV]

Yeah. SoCal was able to stay more active. We had arcades. Watson, however, wasn’t running Super Arcade during the Dark ages. He got it in the midst of the SFIV era.

[@minechaftgamer288]

One of the UK ps1 mags always sang the praises of Alpha 3, I thought they were crazy :)

[@UltraChenTV]

Alpha 3 on PS1 was amazing thanks to having a lot of great 1 player content. The World Tour in that game wasn’t nearly as robust as SF6’s, but it was a fun way to play.

[@minechaftgamer288]

@@UltraChenTV Yep even the load times still don't bother me with the art and gameplay, just took me a decade or so to realise 2d wasn't dead!

[@MrTubeStuck]

It was a weird time to be a fighting game player to be honest. Everything was transitioning. Everything that was the foundation of fighting games were getting lost here and there. School yard rumors hardly was a thing because it was in forums, internet was so young that most people don't know how to use it, arcade scene in most places were dying and netplay was next to nothing. Tekken and MvC2 was strong from where I was but it wasn't strong enough to get new players in. My first Tekken tournament was just a small gathering of the same players in my place and it didn't feel like it was a tournament. I still stand on my head canon that evo37 is the single most important moment the fgc have. If that didn't happen I don't believe the fgc would be where we are now

[@Felipera_]

Oh boy, I just know this will be a good video 😂

[@sozestone6469]

This is true if you only view the time period through a Capcom SF focused lens. Without this era my friends and I probably would of never played Tekken, KoF, Soul Blade/Calibur, Killer Instinct etc...because at the time we were Capcom fan boys who dabbled in Mk. This era was to us what SF V's launch was to this era. That said, I can see where you're coming from if the only thing that matters is Capcom being successful and the popularity of the games with people who don't play them. And to the Esport argument: How many other games (other genres included not just FGs) had people traveling across the country w/o the internet even being a household tool (at the time those of us with shitty AOL dial-up at our cribs were the exception not the norm) unlike it is today. Alot of us "old heads" didnt have a future in comp gaming period we went and got jobs. You cant compare that with the access of today. When you frame it in this Capcom focused way, it diminishes just how incredible a feat it was that the FGC you guys created innovated through community effort.

[@SomniaCE]

28:40 Ultra combos did indeed suck :^)

[@aricvinyard]

I laugh every time I watch K&M try to breakdown the competitive format of the PS2 MK games.

[@mattvalin1958]

Kinda random, but I'm fairly sure Randy Lew is from Sacramento. I loved the old school FGC. It's when I came up.

[@mattvalin1958]

Well. I have to correct myself. I know there's an older 'old school' but I loved the 1999-20....10ish.

[@Felipera_]

Other FGC: you should do something about your superiority complex Street Fighter Community: But I AM superior I believe in SF supremacy.

[@UltraChenTV]

LOL! It’s not really like that. But it is kinda like that. Hahaha! The best way to put it is this: Street Fighter II reached Pac-Man levels of popularity and popularity culture awareness. In my opinion, only those two games have ever achieved that. While games like Mario and such exist, they were still viewed as kid’s games. But Pac-Man and SFII were seen as adult games. Everyone played them and they were EVERYWHERE. People still reference Street Fighter II even in non-FGC circles. If you lived during the SFII boom, you know how different it was than just “a popular fighting game.” So it’s natural that Street Fighter controls the narrative of the FGC. It’s the most recognizable and will draw the most eyes from a casual public. It can pull in more people than any other game except maybe Mortal Kombat, but that game has its own issues (namely that kids CAN’T play it and you can’t put it on TV and such). I shouldn’t a whole official episode on this. Haha.

[@Felipera_]

@@UltraChenTV absolutely, the game literally change the game. It was industry defining. Best selling game of all time. Heck! As a Kid one of my fondest memories was playing my mom and grandma! They mained Ken and Dictator, respectively (who she actually called "the Guard" as in a police man). I have yet to see any other game reach that level. And in a big way, SF is the best gauge for the FGC in general. If SF is doing great, everyone else is. While games lake MK9, Kof13, MvC3, etc absolutely made that era the "silver age of fighting games" it was SF4 who brought everyone back from the grave.

[@paoislaw1948]

I'm Filipino and I know that building lol

[@UltraChenTV]

LOLOL! That's amazing. Hahaha! I love this!

[@ace0135]

Why is this man talking about the fgc dark ages like they ended?

[@streamingnowstreamingnow2568]

I remember those dark times. 2001-2009 there was no new Street Fighter feeling game for the longest time. Capcom vs SNK2 and then Street Fighter 4. Sure some could argue what about Capcom Fighting Jam or Street Fighter Anniversery Collection for Xbox with Online? CFJ was so bland and generic I only rented it once. The Online for Xbox SFAC was horrid to say the least.

[@ShinUltima]

Query, James: When exactly do you think the "Dark Ages" began? You mention SFA3, which came out in 1998, but then you mention KoFXI, which wasn't until 2005. While I would agree that the latter was definitely on the Dark Age, the former was not. And by extension, the PSX fighters, crappy as the majority of them were, weren't part of the Dark Ages. Indeed, I think you're misremembering history here. SFA3 on PSX was _highly_ praised, since it was by far the best home port of the Alpha games while also being the biggest and most feature-rich. There's a reason why that version alone sold a million copies while SFA1/SFA2 sold maybe 50-60% of that of they were lucky. Rather, it wa the hardcore crowd on alt.games.sf2 who didn't like the PSX port of SFA3, because it was very different to the arcade, in ways that only those hardcore players would care about but thr majority wouldn't give a shit about. I also don't think it's fair to mention _Capcom vs. SNK Pro_ , because I'm pretty sure no one in Japan played that either (for the record, my roomates and I got it for impoeet Dreamcast). That remains one of the most baffling releases of all time, because _Pro_ came out in June of 2001, while the _vastly_ superior CvS2 came out a mere 3 months later. Pretty sure even among alt.games.sf2 fare, the only ones who played and discussed _Pro_ at all were Majestros and myself. And of course, MvC2 came out in 2000 and was basically loved and played by _many_ . Arcades as a whole were dying, sure, but MvC2 kept things going a little longer, as did CvS2, to a lesser extent. So I would posit that the start of the Dark Ages wasn't with the early 2D-3D transition of the late 90s, which was more ties to the downturn of arcades generally (don't forget that the likes of _Tekken 3_ , _TTT_ , and _Soul Calibur, with the latter's incredible glow up on Dreamcast, came out in this time too), bit rather, with the final phase out of arcades post-CvS2. The decline might have started earlier, but there were sufficient big hits up until 2001 that the real dark age didn't kick in until much later (don't forget that MvC2 carried Evo for _years_ ; hell, MvC2 is the game that transitioned the B series into Evo!). So IMO, you're looking at late 2002, maybe early 2003, as when the Dark Age began. That was when the PS2 was really hitting its stride (ironic, because PS2 got good to great ports of all fighters at the time, albeit some were JPN-only like you said; we _did_ get _Guilty Gear: Accent Core_ in the west, which I played and loved after only playing the original GGXX because I was one of three people on the planet who did _not_ have a modded PS2, but by then the Dark Age had definitely settled in) and fighters had become kinda passe instead of big events, outside of maybe _Soul Calibur II_ . And of course, Capcom went dark during this time, only coming out with the soul-less (though otherwise not completely terrible) _Capcom Fighting Jam_ . GG started being a thing during this time, and Tekken continued to roll along (for the record, MK was and still is irrelevant, as far as the FGC was concerned; but nearly every MK game during this period still sold around 2 million copies aside from _Armaggedon_ ), and SNK was trying their hand with Atomiswave as their post-MVS system, but there was no single unifying game that drew people together and played like with MvC2 for years. Not until console SFIV dropped in early 2009 (since very few places outside JPN played the original arcade version which dropped in July 2008) did things pick back up. By that time we were in the PS3/X360 generation, a.k.a. when online was more mainstream and thus could start playing other more regularly. SFIV was big not just because it was the return of SF but also because it arguably kicked off playing online "seriously". These are the factors that lead to the FGC blowing up in 2009.

[@SaviorGabriel]

Yeah, there was just little to no buzz with fighting games during that time even though fighting games were still being made. Even if there was any buzz, it was a far cry from what things were in the '90s.

[@PopeTheRevXXVIII]

What Dark Age?

[@X_The_Y]

Capcom Dark Ages* Fgs were fire

[@UltraChenTV]

People say that, but it’s just not true. I have the examples of Guilty Gear (and also Tekken) having games released in Japan early, needing to import games to play, having no scenes out there, etc. Even though companies were making Fighting Games, it was so hard to play them with other people and no game was boosting the overall scene. Evo 2008 was the emptiest Evo I had ever seen outside of Smash Bros. Brawl and it was because people had lost interest in the genre.

[@ocoro174]

dark ages is period between arcades and rollback

[@UltraChenTV]

That’s a really good summation, honestly. But the Dark Ages definitely went away when SFIV came out, and we didn’t have Rollback just yet, so the Dark Ages and Rollback weren’t QUITE in sync as one would think.

[@fRikimaru1974]

For me the dark age is now. Modern SF games have some things that the original SF games haven't. Modern SF games have a lot of normals that go forward. Some of those normal kicks or punches make the characters advance a little just by pressing them. In first SFII games not a single normal blow makes the character go forward. And when connects, even when blocked, every blow always moves you away from the oponent. Only specials go forward, or up. And only specials can knock down opponents in classic SF. Normal blows can't, only sweep. All of these "target combos" in wich you only need to press the same button several times and the last blow knocks down the opponent are just cheap. Nothing like that exists in early SF games, only Guy's combo in Alpha series and to perform it you need to learn a quick combination of different buttons that are not so easy to perform. Well, from SFII' onwards because in the original SFII not even the specials knock you down. And in first SF games every special has a purpose beyond extending combos. There are a lot of specials in SFV or SF6 that nobody ever uses in other situation than combo extenders. Changing all that have turned SF games in a different thing. They are just about remembering long combos, when the first ones were all about pure skill and reactions and a precise use of the specials in different situations.

[@ternellwgaming]

Vs on PS1 gotta be the worst fighting game I ever played. It was rough in the PS1 streets 😂

[@UltraChenTV]

That sentence was very confusing. Haha. Could mean Vampire Savior (which PS 1 didn’t have a copy). Could also mean the Vs. game series (X-Men Vs. Street Fighter was genuinely awful on the PlayStation). But are you actually referring to THIS game?? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vs._(video_game)?wprov=sfti1

[@ternellwgaming]

@@UltraChenTV Hahaha, I didn’t even think of all that! But, yes, that’s the game! One of the few games I rented and returned early. 😂

[@UltraChenTV]

LOL! That good, huh? Almost feels like I need to hunt it down now. Haha!

[@666slateran666]

How can you say you wouldnt want darkstalkers if it wasnt in arcsys style? Re engine is nuts and they could make a gorgeous darkstalkers game!

[@BigBoris-n7z]

You think making the darkstalkers look ultra realistic is the way to go? I might get some flak for this but I think sf6 ain't really that good looking. Pretty, but realistic feels weird. Cartoony visuals would fit darkstalkers better. Don't think they'd be going that direction if they used the re engine.

[@UltraChenTV]

DarkStalkers is the EPITOME of 2D animation. It is, IMO, the best looking sprite based fighting game of all time. Yes, even over the SFIII series, even more than the original X-Men games, even more than any Guilty Gear. DarkStalkers represents the highest artistry of animation. The amount of nonsensical transformation and morphing from the characters would be very hard to replicate in 3D. Raptor’s legs can spawn a buzz saw, and chainsaw, more Raptor heads in his knees, etc. Huitzil doesn’t even make sense as a machine whose limbs seem to morph into whatever he wants. Pyron is essentially formless and can turn into whatever he wants. And so on and so forth. For 3D, they’d have to do the Necalli thing where both of his hair is there at all times, one is just invisible based on whether he’s in V-Trigger or not. So Raptor would just have invisible extra limbs everywhere. Same with Huitzil. I don’t even know how they’d do Pyron. And everything stretches and snaps and so much of DarkStalkers is based on key frames, which 3D animation tends to mute a bit. By not relying on interpolation for animation frames, you get a far stronger cartoony look, like what ArcSys does for Guilty Gear. If the game ever became a 3D modeled fighter with realistic graphics, I’ll gouge my eyes out. Here’s a great article talking about why DarkStalkers is almost the paragon of Sprite-based Fighting Game animation: art-eater.com/articles/darkstalkers-and-the-twelve-principles-of-animation

[@1deagr]

"People need to stop re-writing history" "Everyone stopped playing after evo" James this is why no one takes you seriously, you either forget information or leave stuff out on purpose, we all know people continued to play in their arcade scenes in So-Cal, NY & Texas mainly as this is all the scene was back then it was people in arcades so to say people stopped playing until next evo is a straight up lie man.

[@UltraChenTV]

Dude. You ask anyone in that time, you know that there was the cool off period. Most people took a break after Evo. The very dedicated kept playing for sure. And those of us lucky enough to have a scene to play in. But we all always used to talk about the post-Evo break. There’s no revisionist history here. Everyone would say it.

[@UltraChenTV]

Also, just to make sure, because I’m always willing to admit I’m wrong, I asked Twitter about it. You can see the responses for yourself: twitter.com/jchensor/status/1817666302804373830?s=46&t=MDPxVSSyqz6WFoS5jSolyQ