The Future of Religion and Finding Meaning with John Vervaeke

[@JunkyardTheologian]

Holy COW! That was AMAZING! I'm speechless, and warm, and buzzing in my heart and mind! WOW! Thank-you!

[@dalibofurnell]

Thanks guys , when it comes to John Vervaeke, I watch and deeply listen. I enjoyed doing all his courses and they enriched my life, and the current series After Socrates is quite profound. 👌 John actually brought me closer to Christianity i truly appreciate that. I watched the latest episodes of After Socrates early this morning and this series is quite profound. Well done, John. Props to you guys for having him on !

[@StealBackYourHeart]

John Thank you for sharing your story, it was very healing for me.

[@janthonycologero9206]

John framed his work as "tools not rules". That's a great way to help explain what's going on here to people that are still trapped in the "rules" frame. Simple yet powerful. The idea of not allowing the turning of the narrative into an idol is another one that landed for me. Thanks again for everything you all are doing.

[@meaninginthemiddle]

I totally agree. He's a magician with his framing and articulation. Really glad you enjoyed it. - Landon

[@mills8102]

This was an incredible dialogue. Hesse was pivotal for me reckoning with fundamentalism in late youth as well. I look forward to exploring this podcast more. Thank you.

[@AnAlgernon]

56:35 - What a great question! Paraphrase: How do all of the people of different belief systems maintain a common narrative?😮. That feels very enpoint.

[@SeekersofUnity]

This was just lovely. Thank you guys.

[@meaninginthemiddle]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@andrewx3y8c]

Stuff leading up to 39:15 and after is so good. Very detailed exposition of fundamentalism in a way I've never quite heard it put before. Coming from Christian Fundamentalism (the movement as well as a specific way of looking at the world), I especially resonated with Professor Vervaeke's background and appreciated his vulnerability as well.

[@micheletx17]

Looking forward to John’s book. Great conversation ❤

[@jasonmitchell5219]

Thanks, that was time well spent. It brought up some things I've been wrestling with since reading Plato's Republic like using noble lies to social engineer a society 'virtuously'. I don't know how we can address our current problems in an honest and plausible fashion. I admire John for his attempts at addressing this with an ever evolving ecology of practices but am doubtful in their widespread applicability. Then, with legacy religions, it's the plausibility problem with a modern and scientifically informed society. Anyway, I really enjoyed listening to this.

[@Retrogamer71]

I am very humbled, excited and engaged in this important work of John and the ensembled community. Super excited for the written work in publication.

[@meaninginthemiddle]

We couldn't agree me. He's a special one.

[@mcnallyaar]

Great Dialogue! Keep up the good work.

[@meaninginthemiddle]

Thanks, Aaron!

[@aiyanenband9638]

Solid convo guys!

[@meaninginthemiddle]

thanks! glad you enjoyed it! -Landon

[@borislaviliev251]

I am trying to reinvent my own religion but I look at science, not cognitive science, but all science that describe reality. Strangely enough I am developing hard core pagan values. Nature, soil, water(rivers, lakes, the rain), my ancestors, life in general, all these things are sacred to me, the forest is my temple, my place in nature, and my understanding of nature, and discovering the right way to integrate in nature is the path I follow. I enjoy listening to the cognitive side of meaning, but eventually all the information we have should be integrated, and we should point our finger to what exactly is sacred, and why. I don't see religion like a tool that should make my existence better(to give me comfort etc.), but finding what is the right thing to fight for, develop, leave legacy and focus on.

[@morpety]

John Vervaeke you are a Legend.

[@danskiver5909]

John is doing a great service by building a bridge to dialogos but I believe Christianity already maps out the destination. The problem I see is that linear languages obscure our understanding of this realm.

[@Mramidu]

This was great.

[@andrewx3y8c]

24:34 what is it about us that makes us so prone to accept those platitudinous answers. John is an outlier having sought out better answers. My speculation is that many people don’t find them satisfying or helpful in any ultimate sense yet people continuously subject themselves to it and ultimately accept the poor attempts to answer the questions. It’s reminiscent from my experience of people repeating the formulaic gospel as a thing that’s supposed to make sense to people and people ultimately accept that this must be what it is. But at least in that way it doesn’t really conform us to anything and opens up more questions than it answers.

[@gratefulkm]

"little bo beep has lost her sheep and does not know where to find them, Leave them alone they will come home, wagging thier tails, behind them"

[@prboddington]

The Church of England are literally doing work fostering discussions between science and religion including AI.

[@EduardoRodriguez-du2vd]

Most do not proactively search for meaning. What they do is choose from the menu proposed by the majority, what is related to their intuitions and what produces a calming reaction. This has been ruined because each person now has access to an infinite number of variations, and the menu is full of conflicting meanings. The crisis results from the fact that most do not have the intellectual tools to search for meanings in a personal way and the enormous amount of meanings that society proposes resembles those flocks of birds that, due to their quantity and movements, are impossible to locate or reach.

[@zachr0]

We need a new religion that is based on the composite commonalities of near death experiences. If there was such a thing as empirical evidence of a spiritual realm, NDEs have to be the most dramatic and common. They seem to be inherently pluralist, while still affirming the best that religion brings to the table.

[@meaninginthemiddle]

Be the change you want to see in the world, Zach! Do you think a religion is necessary, or are there insights from those experiences that we might be able to glean from?

[@zachr0]

@@meaninginthemiddle Im not sure "necessary" is the right word. Religion might be in a category like "culture" or "language", its so broad a term and means different things to different people. I think religion can be very enriching but its good to acknowledge to some extent, like cultures, they're arbitrary, ever evolving, better described in terms of strengths and weaknesses as opposed to right and wrong. I think NDEs are interesting because people from all over the world often come to similar conclusions around God, centrality of love, our souls are eternal, life purpose.

[@meaninginthemiddle]

@@zachr0 well said. Do you correlate psychedelic experiences with NDEs at all? That seems to have a similar impact.

[@zachr0]

@@meaninginthemiddle Im not sure. Both are probably beneficial while also including a small portion that are traumatic/bad trips. I think there must be some cross over, especially with the stronger psychedelics. But NDEs usually include the life review, and are more lucid, and have longer lasting effects. And I like NDEs as a proof better than psychedelics because people have verifiable experience of consciousness while being clinically brain dead.

[@pricklypear6298]

Great convo. I'm trying to understand the big picture of Vervaeke, this is what I have and I'd like to get your feedback on it: Vervaeke is a postmodernist who reverse engineers legacy religions to "reinventio" and extract not the conclusion of their wisdom but how they got the wisdom, ie, "tools not rules", in anticipation of a paradigm shifting system that will "steal the culture" from modernism(the cause of the meaning crisis) and usher in a new consciousness structure(new axial revolution) for humanity from the individual all the way up to communities of communities. Hence "neither nostalgia nor utopia". Modernism has not gone far enough and needs to move past the current birth pangs until new religions/philosophies come out of the West to save the world from political, environmental, and economic crisis.

[@meaninginthemiddle]

I think you have a lot of it right. I hesitate to speak for John but I my instinct is that he might resist the "post modernist" label. I view him as a kind of post-post modernist (I'm sure there's an actual name for this) because while he is certainly directly some serious attention at the modernism present in major religions, he seems more focused on integration and less on simply breaking the hierarchy and making things relative in the way post-modernism seems to have a reputation for doing. I could certainly be wrong there. Regardless, I think your summary is great! - Landon

[@CALCANEUS3535]

Love it. Even our beloved Christianity is only a finger (an important one for the west) pointing at the great, grander mystery and I think Christ himself would love that.