The Gentleman Gamer: Lethality, Continuity & Character Death

[@venara5216]

Best way I've found is to rarely kill the players but often get them hurt.

[@xxInfectionx]

I always keep character death in the back of my mind when running a campaign. But I'm also blessed with great players that each and every one of them takes the time to know what the setting is like. Sometimes I even go as far as shift the whole campaign for a few sessions just to make sense of the character joining in. I'd rather take my time for it then quickly come up with something to make it fit. As for lethality I always try to make it fair, my players will always have a chance to win.

[@DocFlamingo]

In my own game, highly lethal, I got around this by being a ball-buster about details regarding encumbrance, carried gear, who’s watching your horse, and so forth. They responded by taking on henchmen who can fill-in until a new character can be introduced. In a few cases they kept them as PCs for quite a while since I had detailed personalities established for a few and the PCs already had a relationship with them. One player eventually made a new PC and I kept the old henchmen turned PC around for a while as an NPC with full party member status. This allowed me to throw ideas (and create some conflict) within the party through him. I eventually killed him off as a plot device and the players were enraged, immediately making plans to avenge him. In the end it all comes down to adapting to what happens and making it work in favor of the story.

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@goldgrif Thank you very much for all your comments! They're a brilliant contribution to this topic.

[@joshheinlen6139]

I play with FATE Core or FATE Accelerated, which is VERY story based, and has inherently storytelling-based ways to deal with injury and death; meaning unless it makes sense, the character won't die. This does have some issues on it's own, but it's something my group really likes-and the injuries can be used in specific ways against them, too, providing that touch of 'realism'.

[@VashTheAnimelover]

last time I had to introduce a new character I made it so the player had been brainwashed by a brainooze, lead to believe that she was protecting her home from evildoers. she went and attacked the party. I made it very clear that she wasn't acting of free will, and the player had fun with maneurisms and the like. this of course only works for some groups, they need to want to save her and know how. I find that having players fight early is a good idea, then their less likely to fight later

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@MultiGoret Spreading the bad luck is a damn good idea. It makes the penalty still exist but still gives the option to recover in dramatic fashion.

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

Amen brother!

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@MisterShade Indeed, along with Brady I'm very happy to see you commenting! Ander, Brady and I sometimes discuss subscribers like yourself, hoping away the evening that they may interject at some point as it does make the entire experience so much more interesting.

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@SHPrevodenje I couldn't agree more. Lethality adds an air of tension and makes players care for their characters a bit more.

[@hothe65]

As a long time GM and player I like the edge that lethality brings. People rarely die in my games but they do get very very close. If you allow this to happen people get creative about how to get out of bad situations. Players love a close shave!

[@Hartmansgrad]

@Hartmansgrad CONT: The very positive thing about locational damage for GM's is that you can do disfiguring, meaningful damage to characters without neccesarily killing them (if the system is willing). The loss of eyes, ears, fingers and even limbs will all be keenly mechanically felt. For systems where ressurection is an option, it can be a profound (also expensive) experience depending on how it is GMed. On the other hand, a lack of lethality can rob players of meaningful threat.

[@snakeoi1sean]

I literally exploded with laughter when you started doing your Ander impression. Thanks for that.

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

Very wise advice.

[@soapmode]

This is a real problem, particularly in CoC campagins, and I think the best solution is to pass the responsibility on to the players. From the get-go, they need to be developing their characters in such a ways as to be able to pass the baton if and when character death occurs. Correspondence with friends and family; wills; patient-doctor interviews; agency reports; there's plenty of ways to do it, so long as the player builds it in early!

[@SHPrevodenje]

These are some very good points - you have to give players an incentive to avoid sustaining any amount of damage, just like in real life. Realistic injuries and losing the use of limbs are good ways of accomplishing this.

[@mollytherealdeal]

I ran a "Call of Cthulhu" rpg. My solution was for all the players to create a will ahead of time, so that the players had a back up character to play in case the original character went crazy or died. In the "Dream Park" rpg, if a character died, the player had the option of playing one of the npc enemies. The more members of the surviving party that player killed, the more points the player would be rewarded for a character in a future game.

[@RocketJSquirrel]

My approach on character death is one of mounting importance to it. Either the loss the party feels for more than just losing another sword-arm (for instance), or insert some plot hook to why they had to die, depending on the situation. Sometimes death can be pointless, and occurring to a character the others lose little sleep when they're gone, but that's something I hope to avoid. My focus is on telling the story first, collaborating with the players to at least some extent... even if their allies in whatever bloody conflict don't particularly care, I always seek to make sure that someone out in my setting does.

[@strengthofheart]

In some cases, I use a house rule to provide them a buffer from those "Hit, crit, oneshot you're dead" horror scenarios that sometimes occur. I call it "Nine Lives". Basically, if a character is unfortunate enough to be killed in a session, I have them roll a d10. Any number aside form a 1 (or number of their chosing) revives them at a stablized condition, but near death. They then make a tally mark on their character sheet (or the DM does). Next time it happens, they die on a 1 or 2.

[@Deckof51]

The Allo Allo reference was great - But now I can only think of a lighthearted WWII RPG being a possibility at some time in the future.

[@riprendandroar]

I like 'hit boxes' for limbs as it makes games more intresting, having a player try to escape a room full of monsters with only one hand/arm gives it a whole new edge, then decide weather they should use there remaining hand to unlock the escape door, or fire at the aproaching horde makes games both intresting and tactical. Gming Cthullu games i have fudged the die, allthough i once sprung 32 cultists on four investorgators intent on killing them...and they survived.

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@23penguins32 You spotted him too! He does hide very well, doesn't he? You'd never catch him, if you had to.

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@Hartmansgrad I've been playing Deathwatch a bit lately, and I agree. If a genestealer lands on your face you're done for. Fortunately my character still has three whole fate points!

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@masterofflowers That seems by far the most fair approach.

[@DarthAzabrush]

Loved the Allo Allo reference.

[@VireDragon]

By your definition, I'm not a forgiving DM. I usually roll in the open, but when I hide them, I don't fudge. I run a homebrewed system that lends itself to crippling wounds, which can affect a character for a long time(even permanently). The PCs adapted to this system quite well, and try to make sure that when they do fight, they hit first, and they hit hard. Sometimes enemies do just that to them. So far 17 PCs have died, and 1 retired early due to his crippling injuries.

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@RobertJFreemantle Excellent idea! Especially if the PC ends up chaos-tainted or embraced by a vampire (for instance).

[@Webhead123]

Great topic and one I've been meaning to get around to for a while. Will post a response as soon as time permits.

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@ScreamingDoom I think death can be dramatic but you're right; it should be in one of two circumstances. It can act as an example at times if a player is okay with the idea.

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@thespiritcoyote You raise an interesting point. You can change the focus of the campaign based on the number of characters that have died.

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@DaMoviesMan43 I don't mind giving out pre-gens if necessary, but I find that character creation is a great way to get someone into a game.

[@BirneGilmore]

I know, I ressurect the video with this comment, BUT here my way to handle lethality and continuity: My groups are also composed by a larger group or is playing in a "introduction friendly" location like a city, school, organisation or Settlement. So if a character dies there are others who can go into the hole created by a death ... or, if there is a tpk, I have still some corner nscs who will then play in the background to "lure" another group of characters to the main plot without their knowing. And yes, that worked when I rejoined a new group of players with one of the old group who also had made a new character. I made 2 adventures which were the lure and then they "stumbled" into the old one ;)

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@DaMoviesMan43 The problem with troupe playing can be that if you have more than one character your roleplay can suffer, as you need to make up histories and goals for multiple soldiers.

[@EloquentTroll]

I tend to have npcs that can fill in for party members in the event that a player can't make it to the session. In the event that a pc dies at a time inappropriate for new character intro, I hand them one of those npc's sheets, and since they are fairly used to their drop in drop out nature, it doesn't break suspension of disbelief. As soon as they reach a point where a new character can be introduced (eased by the time bought with the npc), I take the npc back and we move along.

[@evilnekowantznobs]

I like to think that whenever the players think that they are immortal and undefeatable, a sacrifice must be made,to remind them. I learned this when a lvl 4 ranger critted a boss in my first campaign. That ranger got fairly critted by a musket 3 hours later. Ever since then, I remind them that they have yet to earn their confidence and should they survive the encounters, it will be barely breathing and with scars to remember. Sould one die however I just tend to figure out how to get the guy back in with a new character by the beginning of the next session.

[@Onionkid99]

I have 2 contingency plans for character death. 1) The players are tied to some larger organization. Adventurer's guild, mercenary army, Mall defended from zombies, etc. This lends more credence to a replacement character arriving. 2) I give the dead character an "extension". They survive the inconvenient event that "killed" them, but now they are doomed. Sometime soon, at a dramatically appropriate time, they WILL die. Especially useful if the character has a mortal enemy.

[@Enejaner]

My way of running things is to have a major over arching plot that I can slot people into with a bit of elbow grease, as well as generally being forgiving. Incorporating character motivations is important and I enjoy doing such, but dealing with character deaths is probably the biggest reasons why I have never ran a truly character driven campaign of any kind.

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@thespiritcoyote Thanks for the input! It's all very very helpful.

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@Decado1628 Deaths should definitely have meaning in a game.

[@shai5651]

Well, if a guy dies, he's dead for the session. But I always make sure that their story has a way of continuing after they are gone. Sure, Brian's wizard is dead as a doornail, but the sister he was trying to save finds herself free and ready to be played. Maybe Zach gets a bad roll, and his cyborg gets blown to bits, but the scientist who put him together now has a reason to help the party defeat the guys who killed him. (The scientist is also more conducive to the campaign, perhaps.)

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@Backfromthedeadguy Your comment has logic to it, my good man!

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@Ondahamstern Thank you for feeling my pain!

[@iworymer7055]

In my opinion, the best way to handle a character near-deat scenario is not to fudge or cheat rolls, but to keep a player alive, even at 0hp, but at a terrible cost. Pehaps he will have a wound that hinders his abilities to the end of the story since, it is near-impossible to cure. Other way of doing it, is to have an NPC character or even an PC character to suffer for PC character not dying. For example, a friend or contact of the wounded character stop the bleeding, but end up killed in the process, or have an important NPC save a player, creating a Debt that creates opportunity for next stories, or even have magic items save them in some way, let's say a powerfull fetish in Werewolf, will heal a character, but will get seriously weaken in the process.

[@kevinsullivan3448]

I've run games where characters die and it can be a chore to work in a new character. It really helps if the players aren't dicks. Once we used the silly gag where the PCs found a guy tied naked to a tree. Other times they have been joined by a villager from the town they saved when the PC died.

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@Webhead123 Excellent! I really will look forward to it.

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@NoPreyRemains It depends on the location though. In some places, NPCs are hard to come by.

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@haxamaneshiyan Interesting idea. I think the Midnight campaign setting is like that.

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

Brother man!

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@blackbarnz Ah, Ghostwalker! It was an excellent book that wasn't nearly popular enough.

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@Onionkid99 I think the doom option is superb and well worth my considering.

[@woodwwad]

@DeepEndOfTheDicePool thanks for the love baby.

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@goldgrif Oh definitely. I very much feel that death doesn't have to mean *death*. It's all about GM flexibility and telling a good story.

[@davidducker]

love the ander impressions BROTHER!!!

[@millerjames908]

during session zero I have my players make a sidekick/confidant/spare pc that would would be able join the party at the next town

[@Sroge4]

Very interesting. No one's died yet in my Planescape campaign, and now that I think about it, not many people have come close to dying. I should start throwing some bigger baddies at them. Anyway, looking forward to the next Planescape recap video :)

[@VireDragon]

Each player has a 'character tree' of reserve PCs, fully outfitted and ready to go. If there is a plausible explanation for a swap out, in the event of a PC death, I will allow it. In the case of a remote location or something of that sort, that player will have to sit out. But if there's combat sometimes I will let him or her play an NPC and fight the party, if they want.

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@Demolitiondude Written by me, yes. The character sheet is mine.

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@ScreamingDoom And that's where the joy of baatezu in Planescape come in! Devils will spend an eternity ruining your life.

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@DarthAzabrush 'tis I, the Gentleman Gamer!

[@jonathanmedina5778]

I handle lethality making things brutal but fair. If you run into a massive gunfight in the game, you're taking a risk. But i always leave multiple ways to handle things, so the players feel like they have a lot of options and understand that if they die, it's bad luck or legitimate consequences and they die understanding that it wasn't bullshit or them being cheated. Then I bring them back with a new character and try to integrate it deeply into the plot so he's not suddenly the red headed step child of the crew

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@o1sin182 That's a fantastic idea!

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@boltorange When I was reviewing my Bioshock writings recently I did feel nostalgic. I should really finish writing that RPG up and then start on X-Com.

[@haladacara]

My table splits between casual and dedicated players. This would ruin a multi-session crawl in the wild, so I run my campaign in a sprawling city. I use a formula to tilt party XP to underleveled characters, and reward good RP as well. As a balance, veterans keep all their advantages, including contacts and stashes around the city, and I do what I can to make sure those assets give them real benefits, even if it means they kill my poor NPCs with things I forgot they had. I can make more. =)

[@MrDrumStikz]

If I can't add another player to the middle of a session, I have them play as the enemies of the PCs. It keeps them involved, and also winds up being kinda fun.

[@Hauptseite]

+Peter Fitzsimmons Not a bad idea! Kinda like how some video games have done before where if not every player can participate as part of the team, they can play as random goons of the level.

[@strengthofheart]

And so on until they can't make the target numbers. Retaining a "near death" status keeps them from hopping back into the fight and the shrinking target number zone means that dying will still be a very real thing- and worth avoiding. Potentially, you could use this with d%, or other dice sizes to fit your own needs, as well.

[@jeevesosiris]

Answer: With difficulty.

[@kevinsullivan3448]

The issue of character death depends on the type of game. I have had characters die in one of the most forgiving games in history, Champions. My character was doing the most damage to a bad guy and the bad guy attacked Voltaic. Voltaic was stunned, but not unconcious and the villain did a haymaker to put him out of action. Unfortunately for Voltaic all his defenses were off and the attack killed him out right. The GM had a fit and I just said "That's how things work out." So I made a new hero.

[@currentlyviewingyou]

@currentlyviewingyou Being a new tabletop roleplaying character, I allowed the person to reroll his Dave the Rogue character into Davis, Dave the Rogue's Barbarian brother, just to save time and give the newer character a motive for engaging the other players on how his brother died.

[@calistman222]

I typically stick to the theme of the event. If they PCs are on a goofy, fun adventure then yes I'll fudge the rolls. But if they are storming the Palace of Doom, things get serious and I make sure they understand the danger. I typically save mass combat for the second half of the night so that if some one dies we can end it on that note and the player can roll up another character before the next game session.

[@DaMoviesMan43]

I haven't a vast experience yet of running rpg's (though hopefully got a Dresden Files game coming together) but it honestly depends on the genre we're playing. In a game like Godlike, with men behind enemy lines, employing troupe-style play as suggested in the book would of course be necessary. The concept of total character death still holds though. I will give it some thought :)

[@Decado1628]

In my games I would call myself both a forgiving and not forgiving GM. I was the GM in our group that had killed any characters off in any of our campaigns. I usually tried to make the deaths meaningful or at least entertaining enough so the players did not become resentful. In my last D&D campaign the major plot of the campaign focused on one of the players and thankfully it was not his character that was killed off.

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@thespiritcoyote Good plan re the character trees!

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@blackbarnz You are indeed correct.

[@hisbassness]

I won't come up with a way for characters to explain how they're new character magically shows up. If they can't come up with a believable reason on they're own (which usually means they can't just have a character on standby for any occassion), they can wait. For example: the GIs behind enemy lines and one gets killed. A new GI he wrote up beforehand won't work. But if he approached me and wanted to play a defecting Nazi, I'd go along because he's doing his part to make it fit.

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@riprendandroar It happened to us too and all of us died bar one character who somehow managed to flee, blubbering.

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@ScreamingDoom Oh definitely, but it's making it seamless without it seeming like shoehorning. These things have to seem as natural as introducing a new character in a well-written book or TV show.

[@RobertFreemantle]

The only answer is for the player to continue playing an NPC nearby IF possible, then count that session experience as given towards his next rolled character. Situational of course, for an available NPC being there, but I'd be tempted to let them be almost anyone for the session. I'd love to see them come in as a "final boss" to try and kill the party, lol. That would be awesome, with massive experience bonus on their new rolled character for each party member they kill. I'm so evil.

[@AshenIdol]

I used to go easier on the players, but, my group has gone in the direction of tending to really like deadly games, or at the very least if they don't die, of other horrible things happening to their characters. A bunch of masochists! It does make it tricky to tie new characters into the group when old ones die, go insane, or become hopelessly mangled in some way. I have started getting them to think in terms of how their new characters could have some sort of existing connection with the surviving members of the group, which has helped. Having characters with existing connections also means that when one dies, or is suffering horribly, it means more to the rest of the group as well.

[@Hartmansgrad]

I mostly GM Dark Heresy which is an unrelentingly lethal game...it's a system with very little healing options and a lot of murderous things after the characters. It's fate point system is a small mercy though, giving players a certain number of 'get out of jail free' cards to avoid that killing blow or that fall to their doom that when gone are gone and take with them a pool rerolls that are really felt when spent. To be fair, my players have avoided death's bitter sting fairly well so far.

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@alokov You do indeed. And it's a jack to you.

[@micahhenry]

If you have an agreement among the players that character death is a possibility (defined at the beginning of the campaign if it is high or low lethality) then it should be known that, although their character has died, it may not be the end of that particular character, & not the end of the player. Instead, during the time being between PC death & raise dead, the player can assume control of an NPC, one that comes from the game setting (i.e. an Underdark denizen journeys with the group.)

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@micahhenry Good plan. And what's more, I do like the duergar as a race.

[@BriarVaen]

Nice impression of Andrew. :P

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@micahhenry That could also work. See, all we need to do is think outside the box!

[@kevinthorpe8561]

In my RQ game I make sure I have a healer in the party. Or if they earn a special favour from their god (by really playing their character to their gods ideals) I can be lenient. Stupidity though I let that play out

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@MisterShade I think there has to be an element of risk to make the character's life have meaning. If they have a feeling of invincibility then where's the challenge?

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@DaMoviesMan43 It should reduce the user's humanity the more ADAM is used, or reduce their sanity points. Whatever system you have in your game.

[@micahhenry]

@clackclickbang I just worked a new player in by making him commander of a Duergar outpost. He was tasked with escorting them to the main city, then reassigned to investigate the status of a drow city where rumors of civil war have raised interest in a duergar invasion. Now, I pidgeon holed the player, but upon reaching the duergar city he had the option of switching to a "surface-worlder" ex-slave on good faith to the "outsiders" PC group. He stuck with the duergar.

[@Hellstorm87]

In my Games i am also realy unforgiving with my players but i only kill them when it fits the story. Otherwise there are taken down or unconscious . For an example: We are palying Cthulhu Now. The players are a group of spezial police mens(the settting was germany). They rushed into a Shop. The shop leader was possed by a minor god and he transform. The fight goes on and one of them died in the Prosses. That player rejoined in as a Swatteam(KSK) leader from the backupteam 2 Blocks away.

[@MultiGoret]

I depends on the situation really. If it is and event, or encounter that is part of the plot, or anything completely random that would cause their death i will be fairly nice to my players. Spread their bad luck over multiple rolls so they can somehow get out of it after a bit of drama. If on the other hand if it's what they chose to do, they took the story into that direction, they know there is is risk of dying, they have plenty of warning, then i'll be impartial and roll the dice openly.

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@calistman222 Good call. You have wisdom aplenty.

[@phantomapprentice6749]

Honestly its a problem, while the continuity is always the price of Death. The last time I tried running a game that was more less realistic-like I think I overdid it, I was not experienced enough as a Storyteller and rewarding PCs or punishing PCs was one of the challenges I was struggling for a way to deal with: I thought of several ways to deal with Final Death : 1) Have Backup: I think one way to deal with that is to have them prepare three characters(instead of one). This ensures that the level of investment in one character is not greater than another and every player would then realize 'oh my character can really die in this chronicle. I can make this edge even more interesting by asking that each of these three characters come from different tiers of play : Ghoul, Neonate and Ancilla. Its unlikely that one player would burn through all 3 characters. 2)Transparency: Declare in advance that Final Death is a possibility in your chronicle and that there would always be a choice to avoid leading up to that scenario and then see how the players react to this. Usually the idea of a character experiencing final death and it actually happening is two different things but I think it still helps to ensure everyone have the same perspective about this. 3) Review: I would ask the Player what realistically driven their Character to act the way it did leading up to Final Death and determine how to proceed based off that 4) Maintaining the balance: I think something I did not realize at first is that the fun of participating in a well-made chronicle is reward enough. So when a character dies and a new one is created it is still fair to let the new character get created with the same power level as the previous one. On the same token it is also fair to give XP only as a mechanic to indicate the growth of characters globally when it is due. So XP,Balance and Character Death are taken out of the Rewards/Punishment context. Otherwise I would ask : Am I punishing/rewarding the Player or punishing/rewarding their Character? . You could also have the terms of restarting a new character up for a referendum poll with the existing players (if to borrow the concept from VTES) which would be enough to scare anyone from playing unrealistically suicidal characters. Of course in games where players play for the mechanics first and roleplay second I could not do any of that but I noticed I get bored in that kind of game anyway..

[@MultiGoret]

@clackclickbang Yes i had for example in a cthulhu game someone hanging from a bell tower in Venice, he failed his dodge roll and got pushed, failed his dex roll and lost his balance, than suceeded at a luck roll and was than hanging on the outside of the tower, then he failed a strenght test to lift himself up resulting in on of his hands losing grip. He finally got saved when his friends came to the rescue.

[@MoffMuppet]

Normally, I don't play that long adventures with my group. They tend to last two meetings, maybe three, before the adventure is done and they move onto the next one. That way most new characters that appear can be inserted in-between the adventures, when the old characters aren't out slaughtering dragons and whatnot. The big problem for me is when I try to do a longer adventure or a campaign, because I have a tendency to make so the PCs are the only ones really involved in what is going on...

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@goldgrif Hurrah for body maps!

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@Belphebor Ho ho ho!

[@wormwoodz]

Honestly, as an ST I never drive the players into "dead end" situations. Even in the most dire situations I always allow an escape IF said escape is amazingly creative. This doesn't mean I stop the players from doing foolish things, and when they do and they can't deal with the consequences, I don't bend the rules to save them. If they can't accept the responsibility of taking big risks and the consequences if something goes wrong. I accept death for my own chars, why should we open exceptions?

[@NoPreyRemains]

NPC's. Have the party have some NPC's. When someone dies then simply give them an NPC to run for the rest of the session/adventure until a natural point occurs in the plot where they can introduce a new character.

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@Samwise7RPG I've never played a game using Rolemaster as a system. I agree that it differs from game to game, but I lean towards an unforgiving style of GMing.

[@TheGentlemanGamer]

@flequmaster Well I wrote one and designed the character sheet, yes.