The great synthesizer scam | Overpriced synths

[@EspenKraft]

"The illusion has become real, and the more real it becomes, the more they want it". - Gordon Gecko Synth manufacturers think you're a sucker. Why sell a synth for $1200 when the guy is willing to pay $5200? This is what the synth manufacturers count on when they set out to sell you their new flagship synth. Same for analog or digital synths. It doesn't matter. As long as the potential customer sees the synth as "High End", the illusion has become real and he will pay up. Same as in the Audio Hi-fi world where Hi-fi Audio manufacturers still suckers people into believing that a speaker cable costing $1000 per meter is better than the lamp wire you get for $1 per meter. Ohm's law doesn't apply to them. They think. Analog synths have usually been associated with a higher cost due to electronics inside, but new "analog" synths are in fact more digital than ever. Discrete components are not what makes up analog synths any more. Now it's all surface mounted chips and CPU's are running things. Everything is under OS control. To sucker you even more some manufacturers (of "analog synths") have a "Vintage Knob" on their synth. They do this to hide the fact that their so called "analog oscillators" are actually under so much digital control that they start to PHASE. To undo the phasing they have to separate the pitches of the oscillators, hence a "Vintage Knob". If they'd made the oscillators less clinically (truly analog) stable, this wouldn't even be necessary. It would cost more though and their revenue would suffer. They don't want that. They want to be fat and full, on your expense. Why sell a synth for $1200 when a guy is willing to pay $5200? All of the synths in this video are capable of sounding very good. As are the emulations of them in software form. In fact, they've become identical heard in a mix. The question is if you're willing to pay thousands of dollars more just to sit there at night with your pretty, but empty shell of a synth? If your answer is yes, then have fun. The synth manufacturers thank you. They even say so, in the manual. Find my music here: Bandcamp: espenkraft.bandcamp.com/

[@spencerscott2044]

Sounds like someone has never heard the names Doug Curtis or Dave Rossum before. Just stop. You keep making a fool of yourself cosplaying as an engineer. This sounds like someone trying to talk about hacking on NCIS with how much conflation you are doing with your lack of understanding of the difference between ICs, discrete designs, though hole, and SMD. You need to realize just how insane you are.

[@dmitribovski1292]

Expressive E Osmose?

[@bangmateo7481]

You forgot Waldorf Quantum and Iridium the epitome of VST in a box.

[@paleolitik9834]

I use both hardware and software voice. The two are complementary, the former for feeling and pleasure, the latter for creative amplitude and freedom. Rare are the pseudo-musicians on KZbin who produce something decent from their material. More often than not, they're not musicians, artists or creative people, but simply collectors devoid of any talent. More often than not, they're narcissists, incapable of communicating anything about their “art”, which they lack, and of which they're totally devoid. Neurosis, ego, but above all, easy money, all the more so since algorithmic community formulas based on commitment systematically over-value the most acculturated, the most follower-like, the most addicted, the most ignorant, the most liberticidal individuals. So, losers choose losers, stooges choose stooges like Leader, in all fields and on all the commercial networks we mistakenly call “social”. Most youtubers are swindlers, in the sense that they're impostors. This is very visible in electro music. The more talented a musician is, the less chance he has of breaking through from scratch.

[@EspenKraft]

@@spencerscott2044 Someone hurt you bad when you were a kid right? Why so upset man? I'm a nobody KZbinr talking about something as trivial as a synth. We're not taking blood cancer here.

[@squirescape]

People owning so much gear and never make anything with it....... more obsessed with more gear than music. None a statement more true.

[@GlennKelly-d9t]

Exactly!

[@smartwerker]

Wait until you see how many ppl own VSTs that are outdated, OS upgrade vulnerability, or the company just goes under 😂 and don't make music. 2000 vst and shit talent

[@The_Digital_Arts_World]

@@smartwerker As if the big boy synth companies don’t go under (ARP Instruments, Oberheim Electronics, Sequential Circuits, Steiner-Parker, New England Digital NED, Future Retro, and Octave Electronics). Neither virtual or physical synths guarantee a person has talent.

[@DRath-r6s]

Exactly. Back in the day, my late uncle knew a couple guys with nice camera collections. One-upsmanship guys, you know the type, could pick apart all the technical details of them, and why their cameras were so much better than yours. ____Never took a picture. Now some of the same thing going on in the analogue synth world. A room full of knobs does not a composer make.

[@tedraven9214]

So? I have fun playing my Synths and creating sounds. I'm not obsessed with having gear but with having fun. More gear, more fun.

[@spahndirge]

Subscription models for software…now that’s a scam.

[@EdwinDekker71]

Waves update plan 🤪

[@TheBeakertube]

Depends. Kiloherts sub is a really good move

[@ljones2087]

yesss

[@Zackzickel]

Software has limited shelf life and needs constant care by developers if you want to keep enjoying it. Not for new features, just to keep it save and functional. Who is going to pay the developers?

[@discombob93]

Amen!

[@TheExtremenarcissist]

I use both Behringer and Sequential synths. I don’t use Behringer synths live. This video doesn’t address the needs of live keyboard players: We need nice keyboard actions, solid build quality, reliability, no menu diving and fast boot up times as well as great sound quality. Nord and Sequential are expensive but offer what live players need, hence they’re on stages all over the world. Many expensive synths are aimed at live players.

[@haderlumpi]

Fair point. But honestly, most synth users are playing arps at home and turning some nobs. Players who perform synths on stage are really rare imho. I mean bands have become less and less popular over the years, so naturally keyboarders even more unfortunately 😢

[@TheExtremenarcissist]

@@haderlumpi Agreed, regarding dearth of bands and live players. My point was that perhaps he’s assessing synths without considering their core market: professional musicians.

[@EspenKraft]

I'm a professional musician. I play live too.

[@TheExtremenarcissist]

@@EspenKraft ok. I respect your point of view but I’ve used a Sequential Prophet 6 and Nord Electro 5 exclusively on pro gigs for 5 years - about 250 gigs. They’re great instruments and they’ve never let me down so I don’t consider them overpriced. I used a Deepmind 12 for a while but the keyboard action is bad. If I considered something exclusively as a studio instrument I might feel differently.

[@LB-pp7pu]

@@EspenKraft Aaah, come on! You played 1 show in 20 years! ahaha

[@MarcAndreLacas]

Doing a lot of of work out an old Electribe Korg, seems like I avoided a lot of disappointments using a very basic but solid setup.

[@NicoIasTravolta]

I remember in the studio we opened a Lexicon Lexicon 960L which cost about 8-10.000$. And were shocked to see inside the cheapest motherboard with a Celeron, which costs a maximum of $100.

[@ScottsSynthStuff]

10:01 that's inaccurate. All of the modern Behringer synths are exclusively surface-mount. There's no way they could produce the synths they do today at those prices if they were still using through-hole construction. With the move to surface-mount construction, Behringer synths have actually become far more reliable and long-lived than their previous generations of products.

[@Cubik303]

It is also worth mentioning that through-hole versus surface-mount simply doesn't matter except in terms of cost - at least in the case of synthesizers and associated gear. It is just a means of attaching (mechanically and electrically) components to a board. What people often mean when making this claim is that older, often through-hole, components from the 70's and 80's had poorer electrical performance or wider tolerances. This might (and often is) desirable in a synth circuit for sonic reasons. But that aspect is the component itself, not how it was soldered to the board. There may be other reasons to fault Behringer synths, but usage of surface-mount technology isn't one of them.

[@Synth2000]

I think that some of them are. Through hole makes things much easier to service.

[@AdamTheAd-vanc3d]

Smaller pcb traces = less inductance and noise etc. It's not just as simple as SMT vs THT. Also if you looked inside an old CS80 even the massive wiring looms would make a difference vs a modern iteration that would probably use small header connectors between boards.

[@anttihuovilainen1653]

@@AdamTheAd-vanc3d PCB trace inductance or resistance has absolutely no effect in synthesizer circuits - except for the digital control portion (where it of course has no effect on the sound, just whether the circuit works at all or not)

[@anniedarkhorse6791]

I have had a couple of Behringer Synths for years. Very reliable. No issues at all.

[@iApAchy]

Important note regarding your point about the well-known session bassist. The bassist's point about the "producer switch" is he changes the inflections in his playing/playing position etc. rather than changing a tone control on his instrument. This makes the producer think he's done something more drastic when asked to make the bass sound a certain way i.e. "can you make it shimmer?" when all the tonal change has come from his skill.

[@ageshero]

analog ‘Vintage’ knobs are awesome- don’t be silly. It’s not eye candy, it’s a fully integrated sound design feature that allows you to spread voices, knock accuracy off of the adsr, and fully change your sound fundementally with a single knob - using complex detuning.

[@bobrogue]

Hey, Black Corp here. Jokers? :) Our synths definitely don't cost $6-7000. Currently, our most expensive product is a monster effects processor at $5000. Also they'd be bigger and heavier if they were clones. And we definitely don't think our customers are suckers. We are a small company and I like to think we have a good reputation for taking care of our customers when they have any issues. Mostly, at least.

[@mitchelstephen7536]

They come at night mostly. Mostly. Keep up the good work!

[@bobrogue]

@@mitchelstephen7536 Thank you. I appreciate Espen's videos, but there have been several youtubers in Europe have been mentioning pricing with VAT, etc and whatever upcharges come along with it. You can get actual pricing from our site. Announcing our gear is $2-3000 higher than it actually is turns people off from buying our stuff. It's been a tough enough market this year as it is. Apologies for the prices the work we put into them result in. We do have a sense of humor, and I can definitely be considered a joker, but we are not pricing our products in a way to treat our customers as suckers.

[@Wagoo]

His pricing is way off for pretty much all the synths mentioned in this vid - not sure if he's doing that on purpose as bait or out of ignorance Keep on rocking, Black Corp 🖤

[@bobrogue]

@@smartti1970 none of our synths are $5000. Our upcoming effects processor, Expander MK2 is. I don’t think you’ll find anything like it for that price though. Would love to know about it if you can think of one.

[@michaelgiordano2458]

As he states, I am not Espen Kraft, but I do wonder if where he's located, he gets hit with a large VAT. If you've got a 20% VAT, I presume that would put a $4500 Xerxes closer to the 6 range. But again, I am not Espen Kraft.

[@TonyAndersonMusic]

I own 5 Behringer synthesizers and 6 of them have broken.

[@LunaticDandy]

I own 7 pieces of Uli gear (3 synths, 1 DM, some ER and the rest is processing gears). There's only one I bought from a thrift store (back when they made bad stuff) that does not work well anymore. All the others are impeccable. Bad luck or luck ? (I'm absolutly not a "fan" or even worst a "commercial" for this company)

[@reddragonrespect]

What did you with them. Even my 25 years old mixer works fine. While allen shit was already repaired 3 times...

[@TonyAndersonMusic]

@@fredrikh9299Your mom sat on it and broke it

[@TonyAndersonMusic]

@@reddragonrespectI added extra analogue tubes to it and it broke!

[@TonyAndersonMusic]

@@LunaticDandyread my comment very slowly…and then again.

[@linusblomberg6166]

Calling it as scam implies that there's dishonesty involved, and I don't think that is true at all. Most people are aware that much (but not all) of the sounds can be replicated in VST's, and they are also aware that some hardware give them something software alone doesn't. Like inspiration, workflow, tactility, etc, or just being able to fulfill your teenage dream of owning a flagship synth. Whatever it might be for you. Hardware is expensive because the effort and cost of developing and producing them are high, especially for small companies in high-cost countries. I don't think they would survive if they sold their products for much less. If you don't like it, then don't buy it. But you are not being scammed if you do.

[@clarencejeyofficial]

Couldn’t agree more. I think even my Prophet 10 Rev4 almost fits this category. Thank goodness for my 1973 MiniMoog, MemoryMoog, JD800 and DX7 as well as the old 80s samplers. It’s all about the converters and filters.

[@fuseblower8128]

Yeah, a lot of them are glorified VSTs with knobs, faders and a keyboard. It's a scam. Except when it has wood sides of course. Wood sides change everything....

[@lopp3]

We love those real simulated wood grain sides!

[@gobblegobblebarfbarf]

I can hear the wood sides.... can't you?

[@mattmckeon1688]

​​@@lopp3adds natural accoustic resonance, didn't you know?

[@samprock]

I think adding X at the end is what makes them apart 😂 an wooden cheeks of course! I wonder how wise Espen felt for it! 😊

[@pablowentscobar]

It's the same thing with station wagons. You roll up in a station wagon people are like "Ugh, gross." you put some wood panelling on that same wagon, It's a whole different game. Peoples eyes fly out of their head and jaws hit the floor. it's all "Ohhh!" "Yeah!". If you know, you know.

[@rabarebra]

The psychological effect of "something has value if it cost more" is known as the Veblen effect.

[@smartwerker]

I'm an engineer those synths are expensive AF to make 😂

[@rabarebra]

@@smartwerker No, they are not.

[@Sinesquares]

A few months ago I met Yiannis who owns Dreadbox synths and we were taking about the Korg PS 3300. When we talked about the price he told me “I could definitely build one for Dreadbox but if Korg manages to sell it at 13.000$ the Dreadbox one would probably cost 30K 😂 The point is that many somewhat smaller companies are struggling to have competitive prices and they have extremely high production costs, commissions for dealers, taxes, etc. I’ve talked with dozens of people in the music gear industry and they definitely don’t look like people who are trying to scam us to get rich. Many of them make money - it’s a business after all but not always on our backs..

[@chipchasm]

commerce is a scam by proxy. no one is even reinventing the wheel. dreadbox used to be made in greece, they got cheap and their quality went way down. don’t really f- with them since they started making money lol. parts are becoming more pricey but you are looking at 10x markup from build cost to sale cost. dreadbox isn’t getting rich because dreadbox isn’t innovating.pretty much every company is just pumping memberberries.

[@rabarebra]

I first thought you ment Yanni. You know, that old school synth artist. 😂

[@Sinesquares]

@@rabarebra 😂😂😂 haha nope

[@AlainHubert]

In the end, it comes down to what you want and what you're willing/able to pay for it. I bought the Behringer UB-Xa because I wanted the Oberheim polyphonic OB series synths sound and, although it's a fantastic polysynth and an amazing value for money, I quickly sold it because it didn't meet my expectations. I bought the OB-X8 and it does.

[@BeepsAndBeats]

Yes and people who pay thousands of dollars for a digital synth are suckers. That’s the point.

[@sub-jec-tiv]

@@BeepsAndBeatsMany of the synths he’s referring to have analog VCOs, or analog filters (or both). The fact that he’s saying ‘anything with a vintage knob is a scam because it’s digital’, EK doesn’t seem to understand that the vast majority of analog instruments are digitally-controlled, for very good reason, like being able to carefully control pitch for doing accurate FM (which a lot of flagships do). There is absolutely nothing scammy about a synthesizer that, in its natural state, will sound so perfect that it lacks character, having some ‘slop’ coded in to the digital controls. To give people what they like about analog, with the kind of features people demand now due to using digital and software synths.

[@chipchasm]

you wasted your money, you wont get the sound. a real oberheim vst like a sem will take you there!

[@AlainHubert]

@@chipchasm When I say Oberheim, I don't mean the SEM modules, I mean the polysynths from the OB series. For the SEM type sounds I've got my good old OB-6. ;-)

[@southerner66]

On the other hand, remember that many of these synthesizer companies never really made that much money and were often in danger of going out of business (with Roland being the exception because they diversified). And manufacturing a synthesizer including the case, the keyboard, the control panel, the artwork, etc... is not insignificant. If you're a player who performs the controls, it matters.

[@solidarius6400]

I am in Marketing myself and what Espen describes here is called "willingness to pay"- its an established marketing concept and whether you like it or not this is how companies make their money these days, whether its luxury fashion, the latest tablet or in this case a specific synth brand. No need to be upset. After all its your choice - your money.

[@sslaytor]

There is nothing "these days" about it - its how capitalism has always worked.

[@chillwalker]

5:40 Lol...the old and still good "psycho-acoustic suggestion" Trick. To please the high paying client, even if his Request makes absolut no sense out of the Studio monitoring enviroment. Every oldschool analog console had this one, red knob ;-) And everyone is happy and feels heard!

[@sparkletune]

I love your channel. I subscribed when you had all your vintage synths but am enjoying it just as much now that you've paired things down. Thanks for the great content. It's always fun to see what you're up to!

[@TheExtremenarcissist]

The term ‘scam’ is far more relevant in the world of prestige electric guitars by Fender and Gibson. New synthesizers have research and development costs, a Les Paul is a block of wood with basic electronics in production since the 1950s.

[@MiltonGrimshaw]

And I guess that's why a Zynthian cost around $500 and is several synths, effects and a DAW in a box? R&D my arse, I own over 100 synths and exactly what Espen says is true, I've returned many of the new bigbrand synths the quality is questionable for the price.

[@dindinbre]

Cheap guitars became incredible in the last couple of years, I've had a Jackson that retails for around 130 dollars and it played better than Mexican Fenders I had a chance to try. And sound wise it sounded like an electric guitar with humbuckers.

[@TheExtremenarcissist]

@@dindinbre Yes. Harley Benton/Thomann also very good. Factory workers probably paid badly, though…I was looking at the price of the Murphy Labs, artificially distressed Gibson guitars. Ridiculous! Even standard Gibsons are the same as a prestige synth.

[@ViviSectia]

It's also more relevant in the world of guitar pedals. They literally put a new coat of paint on decades old circuits though some of them at least change a capacitor or two so it's an "new" circuit.

[@dindinbre]

@@TheExtremenarcissist yea, and when it comes to guitars, they all sound very similar if their pickup configurations are similar (it really comes down to looks and logo on the headstock), while if you want a specific synth sound, you need to have that specific synth (or something that clones it *khm khm Behringer*)

[@stateazure]

Some of this I agree with (with regards to some synths being overpriced). But the 3rd Wave being a scam? That's hilarious. It's just a PPG clone? Well that's news to me! I own the 3rd Wave and the Waldorf PPG software, the software isn't even remotely close. Could the 3rd Wave be a VST? Sure, although without the analog filter. But that would be one heck of a plugin. People don't seem to realise the 3rd Wave can not only emulate the original PPG, but it can also do modern wavetable synthesis (some of the best I've ever heard), is also a very capable virtual analogue and a sampler, with a fantastic sequencer. Now times that by 4, and you start to understand what's great about the 3rd Wave. The build quality and keybed is also very impressive. It's definitely a premium and one-of-a-kind synth, and its price reflects that. I can see why some might see it as overpriced, but it's not to me and that absolutely does not make it a scam. But I'm not sure this guy actually understands the meaning of 'scam' in this context.

[@EspenKraft]

You willing to pay the price is fine by me. I don't care. I just want to warn people about spending that much on something you can get for WAY less, although not in that package admittedly. Hopefully some will see through the scam.

[@stateazure]

@@EspenKraft But you can't get the 3rd Wave as a plugin for much less - I pointed this out in my comment. You're completely out of touch/wrong about this. I OWN the Waldorf PPG software, it's not remotely the same, that's just the PPG software (which is also horrible to program by the way). The 3rd Wave is much, much more than that. It's ability to emulate a PPG is one small part of that synth.

[@EspenKraft]

Sure. I understand that not everyone will be pleased hearing they've been scammed, and you obviously don't see it that way and that's fine too. I never said the 3rd Wave isn't a great instrument, I'm questioning the price.

[@stateazure]

@@EspenKraft Nothing wrong with questioning the price, but you could do that without claiming 'scams' and stating software exists, when it doesn't. Expensive hardware doesn't = scam. Either you're misunderstanding the term, or this is intentional for controversy/views. There could be healthy discussions here about what you actually get for your money in regards to some of these expensive synths.

[@EspenKraft]

Yes, I could. But I don't do it like that. I like to word things on the more extreme side. I am here as I am in life, 100% true to my inner voice. Some hate me for that, some love me. I like that. I'd rather have some on either side of the spectrum than everyone in the middle, indifferent. I see this as a scam, you don't. That's fine.

[@runestone1337]

I was subscribed to the Roland Cloud but I cancelled it and kept my Jupiter X keyboard, TR-8S and MC-707. Just my opinion, but nothing beats the feel and inspiration of a hardware interface -- VSTs just don't do it for me.

[@TJ-bx5px]

But why can't someone start making hige end M8di controllers that are cheap, that mimic and looks like real hardware synthesizers...

[@chrislisten87]

@@TJ-bx5px there are. If I understand yout comment correctly. Called Dtronics . They have Jupiter8 and so on.

[@webtrekkeruk2487]

@@TJ-bx5px Yes, why not, indeed. In fact, many current MIDI controllers have better quality keyboards than some of these top brand synths. Also, you can use your favourite keyboard that you feel comfortable with to control many different VST instruments.

[@synthmaven]

@@TJ-bx5px Whoever ends up figuring that one out will MAKE A FORTUNE !

[@chipchasm]

ew, you like that corny gear. those ui-s would be the first to go

[@RapidFlow_Shop]

Also... I ve worked with and for some.small and big synth companies and I can tell you these companies are fighting for their survival year after year. You have just spread a ton of misinformation.

[@Trottelheimer]

Yes. This vid is pure ignorant bs. And the schmuck thinks he's being "edgy cool" and "righteous" or something. Sad.

[@rocknwroll]

Hi, what kind of inexpensive, but dependable setup would you recommend for someone with no keyboard gear who wants to add zencore sounds to their original compositions? I imagine I need the software and a used keyboard? I think I would prefer an 88 key board. Using Macbook M3. Logicpro. Thank you so much for your help.

[@berkut6313]

You don't own a plugin, and never will. You only buy a license valid under said circumstances. If you need to meet deadlines, that's the way to go. I loved Absynth, RIP. The only good value for money plug ins are free ones: if you uodated your os and it no longer works, it did not cost you anything in the first place !

[@NothingHereButMe]

This is a really good point tbh. With everything going subscription based too 'owning' something is becoming harder. Don't pay full price for a Roland or Prophet though, they are overpriced

[@atarkus8]

That's actually what Dave Smith once said in an interview, that he went back into hardware after working on software because he wanted to make instruments that would still work 20 years from now. Having said that, once he realized how much cachet the old stuff had, the prices immediately spiked. Moog is by far the worst offender though. Charging 5k for a re-released Minimoog is insane, and is entirely a result of the sucker factor. It even used to cost 3.5k when they first tried it in 2016...

[@mdjey2]

This is why I never paid for a plugin.

[@valley_robot]

Lots of free plugins

[@Ziyoblader]

And this is why when you buy the product pirate it as well make sure you have a backup that is fixed so it does not ask you for any more money for when these corporate sleaze balls pull the subscription plan out of their butt. This is actually perfectly legal in the emulation space if you go to law school you would learn about it it's something they don't like to share too much but if you know you know as long as you have the physical copy with you and the system emulation dumping with your own data that's from your physical copy it is legal

[@TheDams1975]

"Perception is everything" would fits well with audiophiles too :)

[@EspenKraft]

Hence why I address those in the video description.

[@meskisable]

@@EspenKraft Well there are scams in audiophile market, but there also legit gear. When you reach about 10k for a system improvements in sound quality become small and price rises exponentially. But I I heard systems that cost from 50 to 300k and they sound phenomenal. For headphones it is much cheaper. You can get DAC amp combo with headphones for about 2-3k.

[@EspenKraft]

The irony is that on some of these systems have music playing that is made on a laptop and software costing a total of $1000 or less. Audio systems costing $300K is snake oil. I've heard them as well, and even more expensive and it's totally bollocks.

[@meskisable]

@@EspenKraft Those systems is not made for music made with laptops. I had experience once when i played "beyond black rainbow" OST vinyl on audio note system. It sounded very bad(you can hear a lot of bad details), but on average hi-fi it sounded good. Then owners of that system played analog recorded jazz record - it sounded phenomenal. To me it is the same with cars. Nowadays you can get sporty saloon car that is fast and very good, but F1 car is miles of ahead in terms of performance.

[@jarls5890]

....or the Apple product in his lap.

[@nujuat]

Not that I want to defend or buy any of these synths mentioned, but knobs and faders are literally how you play synthesisers. As a more dramatic example, using an accordion vst with a midi controller is nothing like playing an accordion, even if you could (virtually) squeeze out similar sounds.

[@EspenKraft]

No, you PLAY synthesizers on their keys. How you PROGRAM a synth is another matter.

[@nujuat]

@EspenKraft even if modifying parameters in real time for expression wasn't a thing, programming is still part of using a synth, and its feel doesn't hold zero value.

[@EspenKraft]

Programming a synth was never a thing to many great players and composers of the past. It was to some. We're all different.

[@torino1138]

⁠@@EspenKraft Eddie Van Halen would like a word lolol

[@EspenKraft]

Eddie is dead. He has no voice.

[@mabian69]

I was also mentioning the difference is indeed in reliability, keybed quality, availability of a sheer amount of physical controls already mapped and supposedly high build quality and durability. Is it enough to explain the price tag and difference compared to the full software counterpart? Not really sure...

[@steved4677]

Hello! Great video. Spot on about Behringer. I have their 808 clone and I sometimes have to push the cymbal volume knob down to get any output from the mono out jack. I was wondering if you have any thoughts on the Yamaha YC61. Is it just a computer?

[@HOLODECK-MUSIC-PROJECT]

Espen turns radical into a 80s version of BadGear 😂

[@MindGap-2020]

Love it!

[@atmobeat]

At first glance, he's ticking all the boxes!

[@MindGap-2020]

@@atmobeat 🤣 Espen always ticks all the boxes!

[@MarkusGeheim]

Wouldn't it be Bad Kraft then?

[@neild4639]

​@@MarkusGeheim well played sir

[@Observe-n-Learn]

Flagship prices are being "adjusted" now, a lot more next year. Seeing many used ones being sold at $1K-$2K depreciation. When Hydrasynth Deluxe went on sale for $1500, I saw it as the bargain. Then they updated the O.S. and it is a Poly AT beast. Used synths I love are, Novation Ultranova ~$350, Studiologic Sledge Black ~$600, DeepMind 12 or 12D $500-$600, Take 5, a stretch at ~$1000... just to name some. If manufacturers want to pry $3K+ from me, the synth needs to have a lot of magic above and below the hood.

[@bukkaratsuppa6414]

I got deepmind 12d for a ridiculous bargain, new. I just cought the right moment, it's 1.5 times more expensive now in my country then what i paid less than 2 years ago. Such a beautiful synth, for so cheap! I sold my Nord Rack 2X just before, and then i felt bad for the guys who bought it, they seemed so involved with music, but that money i asked did obvisouly not come easy. I definitely should have gone down 10%, if i knew i was about to hit that bargain with Deepmind. I was about to bring it down anyway, now i feel bad, as if i ripped them off.

[@pablo_costas]

I think you're spot-on about manufacturers capitalizing on perceptions of 'high-end' gear but I am going to have to disagree with the surface mount components and digital control arguments. SMT improves manufacture reliability of electronics, you can have a full analog synth with SMT. Thinking that because an analog circuit is built with THT sounds better than with SMT is getting into cork sniffing territory. Digitally controlled circuits are also a good improvement to have, the circuit does not care if the control voltage comes from your hand turning a knob or from a DAC controlled by a microcontroller/processor.

[@jason.martin]

So the digital LFOs and envelopes are just controlling the analogue OSC, its not that the sounds from the OSC gets converted into digital and runs through the envelopes then back out to analogue? just asking for more understanding on this, thanks !

[@bblix]

@@jason.martin Just controlling, generating voltages to control the analog circuitry. Oberheim Expander and Matrix 12 were among the first that used this technique. Saves money and adds flexibility.

[@pablo_costas]

@@jason.martin synthesizers stages are designed so their parameters can be voltage controlled, so it can be connected to other stages like: modulation sources or direct control, like a knob or a fader. Werther that modulation comes from another analog block or a microcontroller's DAC is irrelevant to the sound because the stage just "sees" a control voltage.

[@BrunodeSouzaLino]

I find strange the notion that it's not possible to construct analog circuitry using SMD components. SMD is just a packaging size for electronic components.

[@jason.martin]

@@bblix great thanks for the reply!

[@Technonsia]

the minibrute series are fully analogue:). the do have the vst now so i guess in future it will be a phone inside running the software

[@jjlacey1970]

i work as a producer. i have experienced people saying 'yh thats it' by just putting my finger back on the mouse etc. for example, when they say can you turn the bass down a bit and having not touched a thing. weird. it happens a lot

[@Reyescult]

I could not disagree with your take any more if I tried. I am fortunate enough to own many of those SCAM synths. So, you can take my opinion with a grain of salt. I didn’t pay anywhere near $7k for my 3rd Wave. It is absolutely the best sounding wavetable synth I have ever owned, and I have owned a lot of them.

[@JohnnyADi]

As an owner of the desktop module I 100% agree! All of his prices are way higher than even retail! I haven't bought a synth in 4 years till the 3rd wave.

[@dionysiaex5538]

What does "best sounding" even mean? I would guarantee that in proper double blind tests, let alone in actual tracks, you wouldn;t even be able to pick it out.

[@JohnnyADi]

@@dionysiaex5538 that's sooooo not true. I've listened back and fourth between vsts and own plenty to know it's not the same. You're too broke to know so you just assume we are bullshitting you. And you can't AB comparison like we can. Go educate yourself and go get a job.

[@kokakolagodcomp-vi2yv]

are you the guy he mentions in beginning who has all these strong opinions of his expensive gear and makes no music with them?

[@Reyescult]

@@dionysiaex5538 It means exactly what it 'sounds' like. 😊

[@LeoMrz]

I started playing synths last year, YT has been my main source of info but after a couple months the synth trend mafia was hard to not notice. Brands, well they gotta profit, and as a beginner hobbyist I’ve been forced to research before buying because of a limited budget, but Espen is definitely one of the few synth artists whose word I trust, mostly because he does make music. Thanks for speaking the truth Esperen Kraft.

[@whatsthemonsterbelow]

Take my advice as a composer for 25 years, you will sell all the gear other than the basics eventually. If you can make money with it, you should buy it. If not, don't. Unless it's a hobby, then that all up to you

[@remka2000]

I agree on the point about "fetishisation" of the tools. Tools are a mean to an end, nothing more, nothing less. Musical instruments are tools too. Now some of them bring more pleasure to use than others.

[@marinedalek]

Fascinating to see someone who regularly drives up the cost of middle-of-the-road retro gear rail against perception-driven pricing with no sense of irony. Just to pick one of the many specious arguments here: I migrated from using solely VST plugins to using mainly hardware "scam synths" for many reasons, not the least of which is the dedicated control surface per synth. However, an unintended benefit is that recreating a sound I recorded on my KARP Odyssey reissue 10 years ago is a hell of a lot easier than even opening a project containing old, unsupported VST instruments. Hardware synths don't vanish into the aether with OS updates, the closure of licensing servers etc. It's the same reason I try to buy music I enjoy on CD rather than rely on my favoured streaming service happening to have the rights to it this week. Components age and wear out, yet the half-life of a virtual instrument is, in my experience, significantly shorter than that of a hardware equivalent. Unfortunately, this video marks a disappointing pivot from the appreciation of old, unloved gear, to poorly-supported outrage bait. Well done, I guess?

[@mitsanut5869]

Excellent, excellent comment.

[@chipchasm]

ya drive up, to half of 80s msrp

[@funnzie]

Software synths look cheap but in the long run are the most expensive, both in money and in time lost to unsupported synths in a current OS. I have thrown in the trash audio interfaces that were in perfect condition because only supported by WIN XP. That is when I went 100% hardware. Never regretted it. My time if more valuable today because I have very little time left, I am old and do NOT want to lose all the time I put in learning a complex synth. Hardware insures it never changes. Nothing is perfect, but I have created over 70 albums on hardware, and none on software.

[@Murgoh]

@@funnzie This is a valid point. Unfortunately I'm afraid the hardware synths will probably be exactly the same in the future, don't know if some already are as all of mine are 20 years or more old. We already see this kind of planned obsolescence where the product needs to be connected to the manufacturer's server to function and becomes useless or at least loses a lot of it's functions when the manufacturer stops supporting it in consumer electronics like phones and even cars, I'm sure this will be a reality for synths too if it's not already.

[@funnzie]

@@Murgoh I have mostly new synths today, some of the functions are enhanced through software on some of them. But I don't use those enhancements, I know from before purchase that I will not be using any function requiring a computer. This is why I would purchase a 3rd Wave synth instead of a Novation Summit. The 3rd Wave does not need a computer to prepare wave tables, the Summit/Peak does.

[@rolandtriton]

most people can't tell the difference in a blind test, it is hard to swallow

[@irondragonrides]

I have a few of the synths you listed including the 3rd Wave (That I paid less then half of the $7k you quoted, btw). Of all that I had the Hydrasynth was the only one I got rid of because of the sound quality, which was not good to me, and no other reason. So the only part I agree with you on is listen with your ears. I once tried to go all software, but the interaction with the computer only was horrendous in the long run and I quickly returned to true hardware interfaces.

[@g3cd]

Sequential has perfect MIDI implementation, a perfect, intuitive user interface and still provides manuals, spare parts and software for vintage DSI synths like the Poly Evolver. This is a unique, outstanding service that comes at a premium I'm willing to pay. You could of course steal every idea and not invest in any development like Behringer, but I'm not supporting this. The Black Corporation Kijimi has LFOs for pretty much every single knob and is the ONLY polyphonic synth that does that.

[@johnfowler3125]

😂

[@exploringjapan2452]

Funny he says this with a sequential synth in the background.

[@vaclavsmerda2103]

The last minute made my day. 18 months ago I bought the Hydrasynth, even though it's digital, I appreciate the aftertouch and the ribbon, I want to play an instrument, not just generate a sound. I hear a lot about the Moog sound, about the Oberheim sound. But I was never really interested in that. I always focused first on who plays and how they play, the unique style a musician has and the music. Recently I bought a second-hand Dreadbox Erebus V2. It's an analog synth and I really like it. I cannot explain it, but just sitting with that small box is quite therapeutic. I love the sound of piano, I have been playing a piano for decades. So I bought a Roland FP-90X, 88 keys, amazing keybed, piano sound modelling which is the closest to what I remember from playing my acoustic piano when I was a kid. This year alone I hear everywhere that Arturia Polybrute 12, Moog Muse, UDO Super Gemini and Oberheim TEO-5 are really great instruments that I should really have. My wife, who has no toperance for my musical experiments, just says that it must be a rip off, surely "they all do the same thing". She has a great way of calming down my GAS. So, Roland FP-90X, Hydrasynth and Erebus it is for me and I am happy with that.

[@_Only_Zuul]

One synth can be expanded so much with effects, EQ, layered combined etc.. I only have a Korg Trinity TR and Roland SP 404 Mk2 and the possibility with those two gear alone is endless..

[@LevGeorge]

I'm learning to play the cello, I have now a very good cello, but that doesn't mean that one day I won't want a much better cello, just like my teacher... It's the same with pianists, it makes a difference whether you play a school, let's say, a basic piano or a Bösendorfer or a Steinway... It's about both the feel and the sound, and the differences are significant.

[@alphabeets]

The problem with soft synths is they eventually just fail as the computers and their OS obsoletes them.

[@-KingOfKhaos]

They usually last for a generation (figure 10 years) at which point the computer itself becomes outdated. The solution is to simply hold the old version of the VST’s you really like on the older / outdated computer or Mac, and simply patch that computer into your new computer / DAW if you happen to really need that outdated VST. Everyone wins. You’d have to update your computer for other reasons anyway, so it isn’t like you would be holding onto a 10 or 15 year old computer or Mac and not be purchasing a new one no matter what. But it IS fair to say that yes, many VST’s do update and make older versions obsolete over time. The only workaround is to make sure you keep at least one version of the VST you like someplace safe either on an external drive or the hard drive of the computer / Mac that originally was able to run that synth to begin with.

[@loupasternak]

fail? lololololololooll.. you must be a hard synth seller

[@hdslave]

My oldest plugins from 2006 work just as well today as they did back then

[@chipchasm]

@@hdslaveword up doggie! im rocking some 20 year old korg vsts daily in a room filled with of hardware synths!

[@chipchasm]

@@-KingOfKhaoscouldnt be further from the truth. im starting to question if we all have anuses, because clearly we don’t all have opinions

[@ralpix6240]

That was great! 😄Not being able to affort that stuff suddenly feels a lot better...

[@BeepsAndBeats]

People don’t buy the synth, they buy the status

[@sub-jec-tiv]

@@BeepsAndBeats Spoken like a person with ‘amateur’ in their screen name (sorry you kinda asked for it by making a blanket generalization about a demographic you have no first-hand experience with)😉. I’m not a collector, i’ve never posted a pic of my rig anywhere. I don’t discuss my gear much with friends. I’m a 35+ year audio & music professional. I bought a Prophet X because the sound is simply jaw-dropping. The stereo Prophet filter Dave Rossum designed, is also used in believe in the UDOs and 3rd wave. When clients get my stuff, they’re often like ‘The synth sounds amazing!’ And i get hired again. I can’t speak for anybody else, but what i can say is, professional musicians are a real existing market. And these products are for them. I’m not sticking up for Roland, their flagships are absolutely overpriced, as their economy of scale is closer to Behringer, and they cut corners on build and UI. But smaller companies are legitimately just making the best-quality instruments they can. If you don’t need one, buy something else. But i will say, i sold some of my older vintage gear (which often needed servicing checkups) to buy the Prophet. And once it got into my studio, i sold 2 other synths that year, because i simply wasn’t using them anymore. Not only has that synth already paid for itself many times over, i actually reduced the amount of gear in my studio. Personally, i’m a professional user who invests in my business. And yes, i absolutely bought the synth, not the status.

[@gacekwilkooki]

And what's wrong with digitally the generated LFOs and evelopes? I'm seuriously asking.

[@alfiedj]

Great video essay. I was engaged from start to end. Made me re-evaluate pulling the trigger for a hardware synth. Thank you for saving my walllet. Much appreciated. 🙏

[@LightningSpritesJetsWizard]

The Blofeld basically shows what a hardware digital synth should cost at maximum. That's technology from 2007, whose features have not been surpassed still (Hydrasynth does not match it in multi-timbrality and polyphony). It seems Waldorf keeps manufacturing it to make exactly that point. Some recent synths KingKorg Neo and Roland Gaia 2 also seem to cost hundreds of € above their feature set.

[@swid_swid_swid]

The Blofeld shows what an actual VST in a box with only 4 super cheap encoder knobs should cost. I had one, sold it - wasn’t bad at all, but did nothing for me. Bring on all the Sequentials - I use my Trigon on everything, sounds incredible. Use the Prophet and Take 5 a little less so, but there is still an enormous difference between something like that and a Blofeld, which has virtually none of the knob-per-function advantages of a hardware synth - you’re much better off sticking with the Largo.

[@TheBroDotTV]

Exactly this totally agree

[@LightningSpritesJetsWizard]

@@swid_swid_swid I agree the UI isn't that accessible. There is always hidden settings active somewhere (1-5 knob presses/turns away) you forgot were active. Things like its multi-mode and patch saving need a precise operation of knob/dial combinations, or you'll accidentally lose something...

[@jackcimino8822]

The MicroMonsta 2 would like to have a word with you.

[@gevansmd]

I own a Blofeld and it has the weakest output of any of my synths.

[@alex47a659]

Will there be a story about that very high-class escort?

[@russ254]

came here to find out more xxoo

[@shapeshifta3431]

yeh, she wouldn't sleep with him even though he offered 9kusd

[@100DollarHeadache]

Honestly, I feel a control surface is worth something over having an all-in-the-box solution. Regarding the tight tuning of modern VCO analogs, the tightness of tuning is only for the better when audio rate modulation is in play.

[@j_c_93]

Someone should just make a beautiful keyboard with a screen that just runs a basic OS/DAW, that you can load VSTs into. Basically a midi controller with a built in operating system and can run any vst. Then you can play whatever vst you want anywhere without a separate machine Maybe it already exists, idk

[@manuelwatts1864]

​@@j_c_93 - Possibly the Korg OASYS would qualify as such?

[@robertfoose9453]

@@j_c_93 Let us know if you find one...I've had the same dream for years!

[@j_c_93]

@manuelwatts1864 maybe, I'll look into it! The closest thing I know of is the new Arturia Astrolab, although obviously you can only use Arturia software. I'm imagining something that you can literally drag and drop any VST on to. A product like that could make a lot of money, I'd think.

[@attizzoso]

I use the knob trick while mixing since the 90's: a dummy channel on the mixer connected to nothing, when the singer say "I guess my voice should be more in front" I just move the fake slider and everyone is happy

[@barryward7633]

Very good Espen, apart from the fact I am an old age pensioner, and I cannot afford any of the new stuff, the thrill for me is to get a DEAD keyboard and service it back to life, in my collection I have waiting for such projects a Roland W-30 and a Korg 01/WFD, both have no ( POR ) power on reset function so the CPU's cannot boot up but I have to be in the mood to tactile such a job. By the way I recently serviced a modern keyboard for someone, which I won't name, it would not power up, the solder they use these days is of the unleaded variety and it had started to crystalized , so I think these units are not going to have the longevity of the older keyboards with leaded solder, cheers and thanks for well informed documentary, cheers from New Zealand.

[@Slurkz]

Although you have a point, don't underestimate the cost of actual hardware. A case with faders, buttons, lights, controllers, I/O, power supply, mainboard and cabling is expensive. For a well built synth like the Juno X the parts-list easily adds up to $1000. And that's excluding development cost, marketing, labour, support and shipping. So the $2000 retail price for a Juno X seems not so bad after all. But $5000 or 7000 for a synth with a similar parts list? Yes: that is scammy.

[@johndeaux3703]

Why is the Juno-X shockingly cheaper on the Thomann site in Germany than what they're asking for it in the US?

[@Slurkz]

@@johndeaux3703 $1500 is cheap indeed... Beats me! I'm from the Netherlands, where it's €2000.

[@johnnyvegas2015]

Agreed 👍

[@johnnyvegas2015]

@@johndeaux3703 in Canada is very similar price to Thomann

[@Slurkz]

@@johndeaux3703 Weird... I'm in the Netherlands, where it's 2000 as well.

[@nomasters]

I remember when this guy made really interesting videos about old romplers and shit. Now he's churning out this sort of clickbait nonsense. I guess he ran out of romplers...

[@thecookreporting]

It's just baseless claim after claim without explanation.

[@ab521]

Last time i checked, VSTs are free. If you are going to gig with VSTs, you need to have a reliable computer, and you better have a backup. Because of VSTs, hardware synth sales are less than they use to be. If you sell fewer synths, you have charge more to make the business viable. So if you are a working musician, that total cost of the solution comes into play and whether or not it is worth it depends on your needs and expectations. Hard to make a blanket statement here.

[@850r2]

So, choose your controller (which I presume would be the KX88) and run everything through the software as one suits then?

[@perge_music]

The one that confuses me the most is the digital mellotrons. The original tape machine was cutting edge once upon a time but quickly sounded poor. But we liked its lo-fi sound. But making a VST version that emulates it perfectly with a whole bunch of tapes costs very little and is great. Or you can spend $thousand on a hardware sample playback keyboard which has little more than a Raspberry Pi inside.

[@slimyelow]

Interesting that Teenage Engineering didn't come up.

[@ChemistryLemur]

Because they usually offer something you can't readily emulate with software. OP XY while absurdly priced, is a very fun little device with interesting workflow in an amazing form factor. The product is also not pretending to be something it's not.

[@apersonontheinternet8034]

@@ChemistryLemur literally all their devices could be a pretty cheap plugin. Their devices' only selling points are "being small" and "appealing to hipsters with a lot of disposable income".

[@pgpete]

I disagree. I have a Hydrasynth, and it doesnt hold a candle to my Prophet 10 in sound quality or the enjoyment I get from playing it. And no. - the Arturia VST of the Prophet 5 is not as good as the real thing. but these days VSTs now sate my G.A.S. appetite

[@handje1234]

Perception is everything.

[@BlackMan614]

@@handje1234 Buy a hearing aid.

[@garys-617]

And.... Espen DOESN'T have a Hydrasynth...!!??!!? Errrm....🙄🤔🤨

[@nilsvanderplancken]

The vsts sound better than the rev 4, but don’t come close to rev 1-3. Vintage synths are something else..

[@pgpete]

​@@nilsvanderplancken I own the gear I am commenting on.

[@bobjoe7508]

Espen, I’m a longer term subscriber and I need to say that you seem to be avoiding responding to several key points raised by other commentators: -You were probably speaking more anecdotally in terms of prices, but they don’t seem to reflect what people are actually paying -I’m not a synth manufacturer, but there are actual synth reps in the comments pointing out that they are not ripping people off, and most synth manufacturers have very thin margins I understand the points you’re making here (and I also understand your very dry sense of humor). In the future I probably wouldn’t post these kinds of videos on your main channel.

[@Tt-yr9ri]

Very fair points in this video! Totally agree.

[@guypisapia]

I had some of the classics back in the late 80's. Then the VSTs of the same classics came out at a fraction of the cost with Arturia leading the bunch. But then you had to deal with the mouse and the keyboard... Basically, all we needed was the interface. That is a cool and nice physical faceplate with switches and knobs that looked and felt like the originals but that controlled the VST engine associated with it through USB. Why that idea never picked up I don't know. I never bought another hardware synth since the late 80's but I wouldn't mind spending a couple of hundred bucks for that kind of interface for a couple of my favorite classic synths.

[@MyDeepGuide]

I guess the only point of this video was to gain traction and visibility on KZbin, and in that regard, it hits the mark and is a success. However, factually and argumentatively, it's very weak. If you are going to make such strong claims ("The Great Synthesizer Scam"), they need to be backed by examples, comparisons and facts. I don't disagree with the point you tried to make, I just think that it is a missed opportunity to actually make an important point stick. Unfortunately, the second part of the title "How They Reel You In" wasn't even touched upon in the video, so that part is just clickbait. I really expected something with substance here, but this wholly misses the mark, unfortunately.

[@kvmoore1]

​@@skippertunesRoland and Behringer are much bigger companies. Moog and Sequential are much smaller in comparison. Smaller companies under hardships have a higher tendency to get taken over or bought out by a large entity than a much larger company with more financial resources available to stay afloat on their own, even during difficult times.

[@jfn467]

It feels like a video created by a teenager realising his monthly allowance won't get him far, to help him regulate the negative emotions that frustration generates, and to convince himself it's for the better with plugins instead of real juicy hardware anyway!

[@b4chu5]

I don't need comparisons and examples to realize that a box with faders and knobs that's just running a software inside isn't worth thousands of dollars.

[@jfn467]

@@b4chu5 Because software writes itself? And processing platforms to run it safe and stable in that box are given away for free? Jesus people get a grip!

[@b4chu5]

@@jfn467 Examples like Hydrasynth show how cheap it can be done.

[@Station2Station-du2gh]

0:20 "Pay attention to these people who will attack me in the comments. Remember I told you that they would! They don't make music like I do." This sounds like the rambling of some sort of strange fascist dictator trying to hang onto a strand of power. Trump uses these strategies. Espen- you be you, live and let live; applaud those who buy or collect hardware for their own passionate reasons as they are enjoying their lives. This is sad.

[@spectralknights2]

How about korg, particularly microkorg or hydrasynth? Which one do u recommend mr espen?

[@tonyg1997]

0:40 shots fired from the jump 😂 hell yeah. How do you feel about the Behringer Pro 800?

[@shapeshifta3431]

how can you speak on whether something is overpriced without having worked for one of these synth manufacturers and being in a role where you would be aware of component/operation costs?

[@Ziyoblader]

That is irrelevant at the end of the day the customer is always right if they feel the materials are cheap compared to the other market they are cheap regardless of how it's made if it really is that hard to make the manufacturers should rethink their manufacturing process the business world is tough you have to adapt and don't stay too comfortable or you sink

[@yanickborg3118]

Because it's overpriced in relation to the market. I.e. if your synth company is working too hard to build VST boxes, and transfers your costs onto buyers, then your economic rationale needs to be shut down. Simple as that. One needn't be in the manufacturing game to gain this insight.

[@Snhojbar]

You had me at "Pay for your mother in-law's taxidermy"

[@Nunchuckstraberry]

Espen, you have created some fantastic tutorials and content in the past. However, in this video, you have made several ludicrous points. How on earth can any of these modern synths be considered a scam? No one is being deceived, and no companies are keeping digital control a secret. In the case of Sequential/Oberheim, SMD manufacturing practices and digital control are necessary for an accurate reintroduction. Digital control over a completely analog audio path does not constitute a VST in a box. These recreations use the same SSM/CEM ICs as their vintage counterparts. In the case of the X8, it even has the same discrete SEM filter found on the OB-X. The vintage knob is a fantastic addition that Dave developed to add variation between voices. I have compared my Rev 4 to a P-5 2/3, and I found them to be indistinguishable from their siblings because of this knob. Regarding Sequential's products being repairable, they have a dedicated repair team, and their warranty and repair services are top-notch. I know this because I sell synths in a retail space and have had to communicate with them on behalf of my clients. Every issue that has arisen has been resolved. The prices of Sequential's products are justified due to onboard manufacturing, collaboration with other companies for ICs, knobs, CPUs, wood, etc. Last but not least, a significant portion of that capital is invested in R&D. This besides on shore manufacturing is applicable to all of the companies you have mentioned aside from behringer.

[@galassio9536]

The Modx+ and the korg wavestate got to be in good synth list right ?

[@NostalgicExplorer]

I mainly focus on vintage synths because I enjoy fixing them and know their circuitry well enough. Few new synths offer truly original sounds; many just mimic older ones. As you mentioned, you're paying for the brand and nostalgia. I don't know if it is a scam but companies set high prices because they feel they can. Is it fair? No, but in the end, it's your decision whether or not it's worth the cost. Good video!

[@johnpaulpatton9786]

What currency are you using when quoting these prices? You are saying dollars, but if you are referring to U.S. prices, you are off by $1500 to $2000 with your numbers.

[@aquaticborealis4877]

Sounds like Canadian prices

[@Lordxfx]

Eur.

[@SixteenVoice]

This

[@SixteenVoice]

It looks like he has Mickey Mouse conversion factors. Taking Norwegian Kroner and dividing by 10. He has not seen a dollar in his life most likely.

[@luv.matters]

Plugin prices are even more ridiculous doing the same thing lol

[@gadjox]

Some are expensive, some are actually cheap for the amount of work. Synths are cheap, some effects are overpriced af. 150$ for a plugin compressor is overpriced af, but the same for Diva would be more than reasonable.

[@luv.matters]

@@gadjox Even UAD dropped their prices dramatically cause there is no business and they are the best compared to others. However, I called it, they would drop their prices to compete with the other companies. Waves have always been king with sales only because to combat piracy and Plugin Alliance followed suit.

[@RayR]

@@luv.matters Thanks to you I found out UAD dropped their prices. They were to much for a long time...but now even with the lower prices Im really happy with my plugins from other vendors, so I don't see a need UAD anymore.

[@williammchugh4361]

Depends. If you’re savy you can get what I consider Killer Deals on vst. I bought the Arturia collection on a Black Friday deal and for $250 got like 10 different keyboards + other stuff. After, Auturia came out with an updated collection with added new keys including the Ensoniq Sq-80 (I had to have as an Ensoniq fanboy) and 3 others I didn’t have. Because I already bought the collection, they gave me an upgrade deal of $100 which I grabbed immediately. That’s $25 for an SQ-80. $25 for a CZ-1000 etc. that’s a no brainer for their quality. I do think Roland and Korg charge too much for their collections but I previously received all the Korgs with a Korg controller for free. You have to watch for crazy deals, they are out there.

[@luv.matters]

@@williammchugh4361 Ha, sweet!! I have every plugin bundle you can think of, I'm a plugin hoarder, however, I still have my dad's equipment, and they win over any plugin any day. The plugin's sound is thin and does not have that warm round low-end to the sound #bottom #lowend

[@Flat8G]

I have 10-ish Behringer devices, so far only one has acted up slightly. Dont think the quality is that bad. I have had broken synths from many manufacturers before. 😀

[@Wagoo]

I probably own 90% of their synth hardware from early release.. the only issue I've had is a coloured knob cap coming unglued on a 2500 module.. which was a 2 minute fix

[@s.gharavi1614]

I love the Behringer gear.

[@Rayterni]

Which one acted up?

[@amethystlegion]

The best part is you can just buy two spares and still be under a grand. And they sound very, very close to the originals. And in some cases, are even better made than the originals.

[@mrkrotosuk]

@@amethystlegion HAHAHAH! You win best comment for today :P

[@jamesbowsher-murray128]

I don’t agree with everything in this video but am glad you have made it. There is definitely a discussion to be had about how many synths are luxury items. For a relevant comparison look at the guitar market. There is a lot more hands on effort in making even a very cheap guitar, but the price variance is huge as some are marketed as luxury items.

[@Elch-max]

This won't be popular here, but the biggest problem is that late stage capitalism has essentially conditioned large numbers of people to quite genuinely see all this as absolutely fine, and not 'a scam' - its just the new normal, and perfectly nice ordinary people do it.

[@worldofmuu]

Way to shit on a company like Groove Synthesis who’ve worked hard to create a niche product, continually updated it, and unfortunately exist in 2024 when even basic human necessities are expensive. Yep, just out to make money and fuck over the consumer.

[@buzzfunk]

exactly.

[@dionysiaex5538]

So its not the job of a capitalist company to charge as much as they can get away with then? i think you'll find it is.

[@genx1144]

cry harder

[@kevinslaney486]

Well....err, every company is out to make money, that is a fact. They don't do it for the love of it. But I see your point and certainly you couldmnot reproduce analogue filters on a VST

[@davidkittmusic]

I have owned a lot of synths over the years and played many others in studios and while you may be right about the fuse et al the 3rd wave is a very special synth and fully worthy of its price in my opinion. it's like buying a handmade guitar by a master luthier. when you hear it with your own ears in the flesh it's a complete masterpiece and considering the prices its vintage peers go for it's a bargain. I bought the microwave plugin, it's great but nothing close. I owned a microwave 1 and have played the 10k+ wave and this thing stands up to them and presents a whole universe of other super modern possibilities. I've learned some great lessons on this channel but you are way way off in your opinion of the 3rd wave.

[@motoroverflow]

I really want to hear a song about this escort. 🎶"Astrid! You don't have to put on the red light!"🎶😀

[@jfn467]

Walking the streets of Oslo she doesn't care what is wrong or what is right... Aaaaastrid...

[@ranmiller1908]

Espen mostly speaks the truth. Boutique manufacturers don’t make enough product to take advantage of the cost savings of the big boys, but this is old news in pro audio. There are plenty of examples of gear that costs a ton that cost very little to make. You can’t get customers to take the product seriously if it doesn’t cost the same as the high end competition.

[@pavilionman64]

its the same thant the luxurious fashion brands, using cheap materials mass produced in chinease factories in they made us to pay like if it was made by handraft expert in their humble workshops...500 euros for a lux eyeglasses frame....5000 euros for a mini PC in a vintage synth case....do no pay for the brand image, pay for the tangible product

[@johnrunnels5016]

First for everyone getting mad. He has always changed his mind on stuff, people can do that. I remember him pushing, yes, very clearly pushing for people to get upgrades on their vintage gear, then he made a video shortly after saying how it ruined the "vintage" aspect of it. I don't mind Espen's opinions, as much as his constantly contradicting himself, and never addressing it to his audience. THAT, is the unprofessional poorly executed part of all this, people have a right to change their minds, but be respectful to your audience, acknowledge you're talking out your bum most of the time, and that you likely will change your mind again, again, and again. Maybe also be aware of you're own contradictions, and not talk like you weren't the one drinking your own kool-aid just weeks prior.

[@sergiodeoliveira5358]

Not everyone wants to do music in front of a computer (including myself). I do agree Oberheim/Sequential prices are out of hand though.

[@100DollarHeadache]

I too do not want to have a QWERTY and pointer device in front of me when making music. The QWERTY and pointer are for office and gaming applications and web surfing, not making music.

[@whatsthemonsterbelow]

I work 100% in the box professionally. It's not as fun, but there's never time for hardware.

[@metatron3942]

It’s true I could make a emulation of a flute and then harass all the flute players.

[@birdie17uk]

@@CraigScottFrost Does the screen still work?

[@simex909]

I don't want to do music in front of a computer either, but I want to make music, so I use the best method (software) and tell my sensibilities to stfu.

[@fritsvanzanten3573]

Which shiftes the question: When I do as you told us, use software, which MIDI-controller should I get to get the best tactile experience and workflow management?

[@yanickborg3118]

I want to make a point here, on that percieved drift or 'wobble' on older analog synthesizers which now feature as a "vintage emulation" parameter on many DCO analog hybrids or even just simply digital synths. In most cases, for older traditional analog synthesizers, it was actually the keyboard circuitry itself which triggered the control voltages (in the days before midi triggering). The resistor ladder network underpinning the control voltage of these synthesizers were more likely to induce the wobble, drift, or pitch variations that are now often attributed to aging oscillators. It was in fact how the keyboard notes were triggered using control voltages which caused these effects (not so much the oscillators themselves).

[@prophei]

WTF are you talking about with these ridiculous prices? For example, you called the 3rd Wave a $7000 synth!! It is $3,495.00 at Sweetwater and other retailers. You are finding ridiculous prices for some of these. Maybe you would be less bitter about this if you had a better synth dealer nearby? Aside from that nonsense, let's speak for the synths made in the SF Bay area. This would include the 3rd Wave, the Oberheim, and all the Sequential synths. All of them need to be expensive to be made here. They are proudly designed and build here locally. It is massively expensive to be here, let alone manufacture here. You might think that this isn't worth it to you, but it does allow some of the most creative and consequential synth designers in modern history to still make things for us. Many live here, and all of the people working for them are here. The next generation of those synth designers are here. The manufacturing is here. Made in the USA means something to some people, and unfortunately, it can't be done very cheap. These synth makers are doing something great in a very expensive place to do it, and it gives people who are here an incredible opportunity to do great things. Some people find that worth paying for. I do. Do they make money on it, of course, but it is hardly the rape of the consumer that you make it out to be. With all your net research, I am sure you can figure out how much a simple office space or warehouse costs in San Francisco, one large enough to make a product. You should tape your jaw to your head before you do, cause it will hit the floor. If everything now must be made in some cheap shop in Asia to placate every synth snob, then let those snobs have those synths. I'll enjoy those made with far higher quality that support our local culture. It also should be mentioned that if you look at what some of the original prices were back in the day, and adjust for inflation, all of your whining is a product of how fortunate you have been with some of the cheap gear available. Note that the stuff built like the old stuff tends to have the higher price. Have you ever manufactured anything? All the metal in those cases is already hugely expensive. The use the good parts, keybeds, metals, etc. They are offering a product for those who want those things. That's not a rip off. People who can only afford software are simply not who they are made for... and so what? I'd have agreed with you about Moog. I got the 16v One and felt ripped off. The 8k it cost was simply waaaaaaay too high. It didn't sound remarkable to me, so I traded it for 3 other synths. Then I hear you comment that the Moog Muse is 5k... again, you way inflate the prices. It is about $3,495.00, on average. that's 1.5k difference! WTF is going on with your numbers? Many of these synths simply don't cost what you say they do.

[@meskisable]

In Europe it cost 6k euro.

[@prophei]

@@meskisable That sounds like European taxes and dealers making money, how is that the fault of synth designers in the USA? He showed a doubled price for the 3rd Wave, and $1500 more for the Muse. Buy them in the US and ship them to Europe then. We have certainly done that with some European gear when it made sense. Point is, taking the very craziest price you can find isn't a good point against a manufacturer who is clearly not taking anything close to that as a profit.

[@prophei]

@@smartti1970 Which is? I checked all the prices before I made the comment.

[@prophei]

To be clear, are we talking about the 3rd Wave right now?

[@mtemmerm]

@@prophei EU import taxes will take care of the difference unfortunately.

[@mastercylinder1939]

I remember you promoting your Prophet X. Getting rid of your vintage synths. Saying you’d gig with your Prophet X. That relationship didn’t last long did it?

[@EspenKraft]

Wrong. I'm still using the PX live. Still using it in the studio, still enjoying it. I cannot longer recommend it due to certain facts that's been altered since it was new.

[@torino1138]

@@EspenKraft What does this even mean

[@EspenKraft]

When I bought it I had hoped they'd fix the catastrophic sample-import and memory logistics operating system. They didn't and then they discontinued the synth. Because of that I can't recommend it any more.

[@pfmmodule5144]

I have an X, I got mine used for a good price. It’s my favorite to just sit down with for a sound creation therapy session. Good for a home studio, but way too unreliable to take on stage due to the freeze ups and drop outs. The whole sample management system could have been done a lot better.

[@Soff2u]

@mastercylinder1939 yeah he got it for free then gave it a good review I rest my case what planet is he on

[@kennethpace9887]

Wow. Start a video saying "this is my opinion," then say "noone is going to like it," and finish off with "watch them comment..." And immediately, the comments are "ignorance!" Yes, Espen, you know what is going on. You know them better than they imagine.

[@MichaelJamesWood]

But... he was right. I'm reading it now.

[@jfn467]

He's Espen Kraft, and you're not.... 🤣🤣🤣

[@86Ivar]

Does this only apply to analog synths? Look at how much inferior the DX7 remakes are compared to the original which had way more voices.

[@FrederickRincon]

Having both Analog an digital I clearly can record some examples where the analog version will eat the digital or even a session as the sound is so powerful. But then I agree in terms of mixing a song. You need to tweak it so it fits in a song without dominating the whole track. This is where I believe a vst is just fine as you can saturate and even outsource it thru analog 1:1 transformers and record a thicker sound that does not sound like it was missing something. Some people just feel better having a porsche in their garage, while others drive it, or want it. Good analog has expensive parts (I'm speaking about mastering gear now) not synths with a vst mobo. ;)

[@BullyMaguire4ever]

Espen Kraft - big pro sweatshop guy.

[@peterschroedl4878]

nearly spit out my coffee @ "save up for your mother-in-law's taxidermy"

[@gasparpini]

It's not just about the sound. The experience of creating a patch in a plugin is very different from that of creating a patch in real instruments. The 3 Wave, for example, is a 23-polyphony with high-quality analog filters. It's not a scam. Most of the time, it's the real cost for a small company to produce and develop these instruments. If you can't afford it, that's fine. But calling it a scam is going too far. The way you're talking, you're devaluing the dedication someone had to develop these instruments. Please try to spread peace and good vibes. Your videos often have themes that attack certain people or companies. It's okay to have these opinions, but you could make videos that are much more enriching and interesting for everyone than one like this that will generate controversy. You have many talents with music that can help many. Peace!

[@thomasayresol]

I have a home studio and while I enjoy having a Yamaha MX88 (weighted keys, reasonable price workhorse keyboard) and a couple other synths, the only upgrade I plan on making keys-wise is upgrading to a better midi controller for my virtual synths and instruments. They keep getting better sounding, and WAY more bang for your buck. I do continue the self-reliant aspect of having hardware synths available in my studio, I try not to save projects in the cloud and I avoid using music/DAW subscriptions.

[@jeffevansmusic]

There are some really great affordable synths out there too such as Korg Wavestate. It may be a VST in the box with knobs and faders but it sounds absolutely wonderful and that is all that really counts. There are some really amazing sound banks for this too. New price is good and second hand price even better. Simple to update too.

[@scratchanitch]

I no longer care so much about that perfect analog sound (but if you have the money, go right ahead). For me, it's more about the tactile experience and creativity of being able to twist knobs - so I'd be more than happy with a roughly knob-per-function controller driving one of the amazing-sounding VSTs available today. I keep eyeing a Roland System 1m for this reason (and its internal sound engine is supposed to sound pretty good too...bonus).

[@bakerbakerbaker305]

analog is for billionaires

[@jeffblack5024]

I have a Roland System 8 and it’s pretty much the definition of four VSTs in a box. But I bought it for playing live.

[@bakerbakerbaker305]

@@jeffblack5024 well unfortunately system 8 is digital. I don't think its a scam though it looks great