The Guige, Glorified Choking Hazard?

[@alexr.9141]

I tried to watch this at work using just captions, but when you started talking about fighting children one armed, I figured I would come back with the sound on. Excellent video, and excellent display of the uses of the guige.

[@despinhabarda]

As an TTRPG enthusiast, I can hardly wait for when I'm able to weave these concepts into my narrating of scenes. It makes the good old physical medieval combat between PC and NPC so much more cinematic, and I love it for it.

[@proface5209]

What systems do you usually run/play?

[@despinhabarda]

@@proface5209 well, because of time constraints I'm currently running a Mage campaign and playing a Vampire one, but for fantasy I usually go with D&D + the Darker Dungeons appendix. If I want something simpler to follow, but flexible to narrate, I go Cypher System; if I want something gritty and more complex, but satisfying to pull off, I go Witcher TTRPG ou Aquelarre :D

[@Sk0lzky]

You may wanna check out the beta of Sword and Scoundrel, poach some elements and adapt into whatever systems you play. It's made by hema people :v

[@pembertr0n]

The more videos I watch on this stuff the more I realize why AD&D's grapple rules were so involved and convoluted 🤼

[@Ungulates]

Your content is always a delight. Thank you for the investigation into the guige- learning historical sources, practical uses, and goofy tricks like the shield-spin around the neck.

[@carlsjolund2379]

Yoo, long form video!! Finally I can watch the well dressed sword man in my computer talk about weaponry for more than a minute at a time! I feel the more technical stuff regarding shields is often sidelined a bit in internet discourse, so always interesting learning about more obscure topics like this one. Especially since this is something you have been talking about and playing around with for a little while, makes it more fun to watch. And unlike short, long form videos allows a more in-depth and/or broader approach with the topic, so that’s always appreciated. Good work mate! Interesting stuff as always.

[@eldorados_lost_searcher]

Have you watched any Mike Loades? He's the first person I watched who showed the buckler as a viable option.

[@aduck5639]

I think even leather gorgets would help eliminate any real choking hazards or discomfort, other than the gorget's discomfort itself

[@pembertr0n]

Vaguely related but I just learned the US Marines' "Leatherneck" nickname came from the leather collars they originally wore to protect against sword slashes.

[@b1laxson]

When I fought in the SCA my most often used heater shield had a guige as a cord. Its use wasn't really covered here. You aren't always swinging just like how old battles were hours with bursts of activity. During the pauses the guige let me brace the bottom of the shield on my leg then let it hang forward. My left arm then was far more able to rest. When things started up again my shield arm was more rested than most. In terms of the neck my neck guard was a two piece metal clamshell. This saved me in an incident where I was flipped and might have bent my neck over. The rear neck guard dropped lower to cover the upper vertebrate. It really woudn't be possible for the guige to get under the neck guard.

[@Necro_fury]

Just started getting into the sca and this sounded nice to me. Imba skinny guy that tires out kinda quickly with a heater/strap shield so the less weight on my arm sounded appealing in between bouts

[@Blackguard9099]

A very thought-out and scientifically-minded video, which makes it all the more disappointing that it doesn’t have proper captions. :/ Deaf people and people hard-of-hearing should be able to *fully* enjoy your content; *when the auto-captions can’t properly render the subject of the video, that is a major accessibility problem.*

[@ventactics]

Then why not spend your time writing subtitles rather than casting shade.

[@Blackguard9099]

@@ventactics You offering to foot my bill?

[@bloodred255]

if you are wearing plate, pretty sure it wont be a choking hazard. might be typically chain around the neck, but still.

[@abrittishpanfish6269]

My kneejerk reaction to the title/intro was "if they're grabbing you there I think you're already a bit screwed"

[@wwm84]

If the guige didn't work, soldiers wouldn't have used it for thousands of years. Soldiers are very good at shedding equipment or ideas that don't work, so that this one stuck around fro awhile says it was effective.

[@BreezyBeej]

It's been fascinating seeing the exploration of this device. It's eminently practical from these demonstrations and the applications seem intuitive. When using the fully arm+hand+neck strap, it seems like it keeps you very tightly huddled which seems like a positive in some situations and a negative in others. I wouldn't ask you to cut your guige but would it be possible to quickly release yourself from the neck strap with a quick cut from your own sword if needed?

[@robinswords]

I'm skeptical of it. They're thick straps. There is a laced portion keeping it tied to the shield at one end you could probably use a quick release knot on though.

[@Nabterayl]

Rob's guige is laced, but that's not the only way you to secure a guige. Mine is secured by a single-tongue buckle. If you orient the buckle correctly, the weight of the shield helps to keep the buckle secured during normal use, and you can reach up and give it a single yank downwards (like pulling the emergency tab on a life vest) to free the buckle. You lose a little bit of security compared to the laced version, but if you're worried about quick-release, there are options.

[@BreezyBeej]

she yankin on my guige until I buckle

[@BreezyBeej]

@@Nabterayl That's interesting, though. Having it set up so that natural use keeps it secure and letting it hang loose gives you the opportunity to release it. Clever

[@odinforce2504]

"Glorified choking hazzard" You're referring to your shield strap and I thought you were talking about your tie.

[@b.h.abbott-motley2427]

Thank you for doing experiments with this the guige. We have lots of references across the centuries to soldiers wearing shields on their backs & quickly deploying them when needed, & to soldiers throwing their shields on their backs when wanting to use a weapon with both hands. It's nice to get a sense of how this was done & potentially the advantages & disadvantages. Based on both demonstrations & sources, it seems like medium-sized shields aren't a major hindrance when worn in this fashion.

[@E88twenty2]

Perfect for quality or dex builds, who want to use thrusting weapons.

[@graphicsloth]

Do you wear some sort of leg padding, or is every day squats day?

[@robinswords]

No padding, but I finally did order some fencing pants with hip & thigh padding to hopefully save me some bruising.

[@Dynotop1a]

I am pretty new to the channel, but this is among my favorite videos of yours I’ve seen so far!

[@AggelosKyriou]

Well done. I'd also like to see if hooking it with a halberd/polearm will make a difference. It would also be interesting to see it held by the lower grip along with a guige while using a sidearm in the main hand. I hope, there is enough interest in that.

[@memeconnoisseur3002]

loved the long form content, I always find Hema and discussions related to it super fun to listen too

[@robinswords]

I was hoping someone would find some of the candid discussion interesting when I left it in!

[@isntimportant]

The reality is if you're grabbing at someones shield you have a free hand, which means you're unshielded, which means you're probably well dead by now.

[@CheerfuEntropy]

seems like a solid choice for those who are very very very confident in their leg and groin protection.

[@Riwentu]

Stability is sure good point, though in scenarios where whole body is a target - I'd rather have go without that as I could do some parries, hitting with the shield edge, as well as actually defend my legs if needed. Guige seems to be really situational.

[@MartinGreywolf]

I've done a decent amount of fighting with and against shields, both in duels and group fights. In my experience, a guige isn't a liability for "opponent can use it against you" reasons - it is extremely difficult to even grab the opponent's shield, let alone manipulate it, and that's assuming he doesn't have friends with him, just about the only time I saw it happen was when someone was already crumbling under a heavy assault, at which point you can do pretty much anything to the poor sod. That said, guige does stop you from being able to extend your shield arm forward to its full length, and that is a massive problem. There's a reason why Bolognese school explicitly warn you to keep rotella arm extended, keep small shield close to your body and your legs (sometimes the head as well) are incredibly vulnerable. I'd only want to use a shield with guige if any only if at least one (ideally both) of these conditions is satisfied: 1) your shield is too heavy to effectively use with your arm extended or 2) your legs are already protected by something else (e.g. length of shield, armor or body of a horse). You could solve that problem with... a longer guige, and there are a few illuminations that possibly depict that, issue being that some shields would hang too low on you to be comfortable to walk around with.

[@robinswords]

Well put. Ultimately, I think the guige presents some complex considerations for how one elects to wear their shield. I think they're a very easy answer with something like a kite shield, but less useful the smaller the shield gets. Heaters feel like they're right at the edge of a rapid fall-off in usefulness. I've played around with loosening my guige, but I've taken a shine to this tighter position. It does leave the ability to use it to cover the legs at the door though. I find that longer guiges that add stability at the more extended positions feel a bit odd, to where I'd rather just not have them in the first place. I'd say that a guige'd heater feels like a great compliment on top of a good baseline of armor. It's remarkably stout when locked in, and would nicely harden your core against probing weapon points seeking gaps. Which does track well with the equipment depicted alongside the guige in art.

[@Koda780]

This reminds me of elder scrolls V Skyrim lol

[@StormCrownSr]

I'm gonna take a guess before watching. I'm at 0:15. I would say it depends on the weapon. If the opponent/victim is wielding a spear? Especially a long one? That might be a free choke. But then again, unlike what most games depict, shields are weapons, not armour. So couldn't they just wack me with the shield? But the strap seems pretty short, so maybe not. I would say if my opponent is holding a sword or an axe to just forget it.

[@AJCherenkov]

Bear in mind, pulling straight back is only going to constrict the back of the neck, which is mainly just bone and muscle.

[@goose3339]

I would be interested in your analysis of guige and pole arm. thats what i use for reenactment

[@shorewall]

I saw a treatise on guige and pike, from the middle ages, just like Alexander used to do. :D

[@jeydonfal1]

one of my concerns with the guige is how it prevents you from lowering your shield to protect your groin or legs. You can always compensate with footwork but that seems like a way to circle the problem more than a solution... Am i missing somthing?

[@marxbruder]

A couple things: The development of armor and shields was largely driven by mounted warriors. The calculus of mounted combat is different from foot combat. Leg hits aren't as debilitating because the horse is keeping you upright, not your legs. While blood loss is a potential issue, that likely won't be a problem until after the fight is over, and a major goal of medieval fighting was to take your opponent out of the fight either through injury or surrender. A leg hit won't do that to a mounted warrior. Other mounted fighters will priority knocking you from the saddle, or causing injury to the head, chest, or arms since those injuries will take you out of the fight right away. A dismounted opponent's best target is the leg, but leaning down to cover the legs with a shield isn't very practical at all. That's partly why 11th-13th centuries shields were so long. You protect your legs by 1) riding away from the danger or 2) having good leg armor. By the time this style of shield was in use, a wealthy warrior could expect to have either mail chausses, or some sort of early plate on their legs. In the case of two people on foot fighting each other, the leg still isn't a great target. When you strike at the leg, it exposes your sword arm and head. The line of attack of the leg is also slightly longer than the line of attack to the arm. You don't need to drop your shield to protect your leg if you can just stop cut against the attacking arm or head. If the attacker strikes against the leg while covering the upper line with a shield, the defender can bind with the shield to stop the incoming blow and trap it between the attacker's own body and shield.

[@b1laxson]

With heaters and kit shields you are blocking with the corners. The center of rotation is closer to the hand gripping the shield. For leg blocks the top of the shield where the guige is only moves a short linear distance in the rotation. The pointy bottom of the shield in the same rotation covers more linear distance. This covers the upper legs and groins. Kit shields the same for lower legs. For heater shields like this lower legs are more of move the leg or bend the knee with the rotation of the shield.

[@stanlee268]

Very informative video.Keep up the good work.

[@WaterfieldForge]

I experimented with this style of strap recently on a Viking age round shield while wearing an mail Aventail. I found that it would significantly impede mobility due to the rings snagging the strap. Which is curious given its prevalence in depictions of 11th century norman knights. However centre grip shields are a much different and more active style of defence than the more passive arm strapped kites.

[@dyinganthem]

first maybe?

[@Waffelalldayerryday]

Yes you are

[@robinswords]

🥇

[@soccerandtrack10]

Try it with the big roman sheild, and with different hand stuff/small/medium/big sheild,is it harder with the neck rope/2 sheild ropes and the big kite sheild?

[@talscorner3696]

The use of a shield in grappling is something TTRPGs and pop culture don't explore nearly enough

[@sum1337]

trying to touch my shield? you're just asking for a good shield bash ! xD

[@aw2598]

I'm loving this, but, my inner army-wife is nagging you need a protective bit of collar if you're going to be guige-ing about town.

[@PokeDude1995]

Great video, makes the usefulness of guiges apparent immediately. Also never really considered why shields are curved until you demonstrated how hard it is to get leverage on them due to the curve. Great stuff

[@SirGaber]

It definitely makes the shield a lot more stable so it helps with grappling, but I think the guige really limits your ability to deflect strikes by rolling the shield left or right

[@ivannaviosky1739]

I like to think the creation process was someone seeing a sword on a belt and went "hmmm imagine if I replaced the sword with a shield"

[@_Hamburger_________Hamburger_]

Also you can be useful as a big strong shield arm with maybe an axe, or if you were wounded and couldnt fight effectively..

[@pyoheliobros5773]

Does wearing a shield like that count as armor?

[@elshebactm6769]

🗿👍🏿

[@ColossalSwordFormAndTechnique]

I like e beer belly guys wear boxers and socks 👍

[@Padda1996]

👍

[@billdicklechips]

poor guy gets stabbed in the gonads at 4:33 lol

[@viniciuslemos7924]

Damn, i want to play Jacksmith again

[@zadig08]

What are your stats on this build tho?

[@er2206]

Awesome video 👌I would like to know how medieval weapons and armor would hold up against a MMA street fighter 🤔 😉 I think it would be very interesting 😀

[@Bro-m7l]

Nerds are really cool sometimes.

[@codykrueger796]

Do you actually fight with this shield or is it more a parade shield? My shield has a guige and I love it. I dont fight alot but still. Mine is significantly longer, got it from museum replicas

[@robinswords]

I'll use it in sparring

[@Dizneyreject]

Is there any sort of significant drawback of the guide? Does it become more or less effective if you are in a battle and there are multiple combatants? What if it is 1v2, or 5v5?

[@rugalbernstein7822]

Can you review moves that guts uses in the 1997 anime? Mainly the one where he cuts off Zods sword and launches it in the pillar next to them

[@wayland4159]

Good video and experimentation of the different scenarios. One thing i noticed is how each one is while the you already know that combat is taking place. What about pre-combat scenarios, like the sheild is on your back, guige on your neck or arm, and they managed to sneak behind you and start yanking from there? (It would really suck if they also had sneaky friends!)

[@robinswords]

If they've snuck up on you, they probably have far better options available than trying to choke you with a strap. Like clobbering you. Though worth noting, there's art that depicts men in retreat using shields on their backs to protect them. They're holding and pulling down on their guige from the front. I think it's primarily to get the shield high and taut, but it'd help keep you from getting your strap yanked into your throat I suppose.

[@shorewall]

If they sneak up on you they could slit your throat with a dagger. Come on. :D

[@atom8248]

They could also just stab you or shoot you at that point, which is way easier

[@Normal_Nights]

Definitely a highlight to the advantages of the Guige. The gained stability is night and day with the examples shown. I don't have any actual sword fighting experience and only have used boffers (dagorhir) where we were not allowed to strike each other on the head (for obvious reasons). The only downside I can see for the Guige is the restriction in mobility and difficulty in defending your legs with the shield. I do have a loose understanding that in sword combat attacks to the legs are much more uncommon, but I am curious about this, as it is something I had to deal with when using boffer weapons and shields.

[@Tecknolord13]

Hello, I have a question about shield protection. I was reading some info that stated there was a correlation between lower leg and ankle woods and shield ear warfare. This article noted that as armor got better and the shield declined the wounds moved to the week spots in plate armor. There was another point made that as thrusting weapons' became more prevalent the wound pattern shifted to the dominant side of the body. So my question is: When fighting with a shield and arming sword have you ever noticed a pattern between which of your shoulders gets hit more often?

[@beechteeth]

this channel might singlehandedly get me to start learning to use an actual sword

[@FrostedSapling]

It did for me!

[@willharper1326]

This was a fascinating experiment. Well done! I remember a fight involving a guy wearing a scarf around his neck. Do not, wear scarves into combat folks.

[@eldorados_lost_searcher]

*Unless you have the ends secured under your clothes and armor. A scarf can be useful for preventing chafing from armor.

[@stefthorman8548]

did that guy forget he had an sword in his hand?

[@b.h.abbott-motley2427]

At the Battle of Pinkie 1547, William Patten wrote that Scottish infantry wore scarves to protect their necks against cuts: "They cum to the felde wel fur∣nished all with Iak and skull, dagger, buckler, and swoordes all notably brode and thin, of excedinge good temper & vni∣uersally so made to slyce, that as I neuer sawe none so good, so think I it harde to deuyse ye better: hereto euery mā hys py∣ke, & a great kercher wrapped twyse or thrise about his neck, not for colde but for cuttīg."

[@yunaka_gaming]

First time I've seen that thing lmao, how curious

[@BFedie518]

So if someone is in the position to use the guige against you, they have better options than to actually go for it.

[@robinswords]

I'd agree with that.

[@luissantiago5163]

So very interesting. Thank you very much

[@RadiantOrchid]

This is a really entertaining and excellently structured video, well done

[@zhoufang996]

Does the guige also help you hold the shield and stop you from getting tired?

[@KoobpheejVang]

I would love to see more shield content.

[@yamakashii]

I also train sword and shield fighting and when I first heard about the Guige (from you!) I got quite excited because fighting with a wooden shield is making your hand tire quickly in duels. The Guige sounds as a useful strap to have, especially for marching with a shield or just standing in the field waiting for battle. I like how you focused on increased stability of the shield and grapling - I think it would be even more resitant to quick bashes, like when opponent tries to open you with his shield and then strike. However, you won't be able to bash with your shield as good as an oponent without Guige i presume. I am also very concerned about the legs protection, because you won't be able to lower your shield to protect the thigh or knee. The only defense is moving your legs away I think, but it would be worth to test it out. Lastly, it is good to be able to let go of a shield and have it on your back or arm, I was quite suprised how you still managed to protect your head without actually holding the shield! Although, it does leave you exposed from armpit down, because of holding your shield horizontally. Overall, It was very interesing, thanks!

[@robinswords]

I think the leg factor is mitigated by the corresponding armor. The heater's size coincides with armor developments. The kite shield losing its tail to protect the legs because armor was good enough. I think the guige's value increases substantially with a corresponding increase in the size of the shield.

[@yamakashii]

​@@robinswordsAbsolutely, I wouldn't use the Guige on a buckler, but on some cumbersome shields :) As I said, the overall utility of this strap is impressive! I undestand that in historical context, the legs could have been covered with armor, but isn't it the case that shields were more common than good, solid, and safe leg armour? I'm not sure if I should count leg chainmail as good enough protection. But yes, the shield on the Guige is covering the vital organs and that is most important. I guess I just wish that there was some way to utilize it to not get hit in the leg in duels :)

[@shorewall]

@@yamakashii The thing about legs is that they are the part of your body that is furthest from your opponent, and if your opponent is targeting your legs, they are leaving their upper body open. And you can step your leg back to avoid a strike. Most duels consist of staying out of range, and only entering range to attack and then withdraw. If you are out of range, then all of you is safe, and when you step in to attack, you can take a leg wound if it means you are hitting your opponent in the head. Plus, another reason to attack high is because attacks come from high (your shoulder), and a high attack is most able to parry or interfere with your opponents high attack, and if it gets through, it is going to hit the head, neck, torso, or even arm.

[@yamakashii]

​@@shorewall Well said! I would still argue that a knee, while being a mobile target, it is also quite close to the opponent and therefore a valid target. In my experience if you attack the leg and raise your shield you are quite well protected from high attacks. I should also point out, that when dueling with sword and shield there might be different game rules, we usually fight without stopping, trying to resemble more of a real fight (scoring points in limited time). And that means you can do combos, striking high, low, high etc. In such cases legs are good target that can be hit from up close. I guess it all comes down to what kind of armor your opponent is wearing, I totally agree that It is better to be hit in the leg than in the head, unless I am wearing a helmet :)

[@maeveoctober]

i'm a couple weeks late on finding this, but i loved this video! i've been watching your shorts for about a year now, and it's always super neat getting to learn about HEMA from someone who is really, visibly passionate about it. not sure if you plan on making more long-form stuff, but i will definitely watch it if you do!

[@robinswords]

They're a fairly involved effort on my part with so-so performance thus far. I do plan to make more, but I have no plans to make them a regular part of rotation. More of a periodic special topic deep-dive.

[@Ainomato]

Would it be practical to wrap part of the guige around your shoulder pauldron in the scenario where you're fully armored?

[@astranix0198]

That's what the Japanese did.

[@GamblersCrown]

Man you make this look so fun

[@robertwinters7487]

solid content! good form!

[@makingthebestcomments]

Seeing how wobbly the swords are in reality, is ridiculous.

[@jeydonfal1]

Its a practice sword...

[@Kingdomkey123678]

@@jeydonfal1 Sharps aren’t much more ridged

[@jeydonfal1]

@@Kingdomkey123678 yes they are a lot more rigid

[@shaeisgae8952]

Im thinking about the utility of this (not that ive ever fought with a shield lol just based on my martial arts background) you essentially attached your head, which is the most important part of the body to manipulate, to your arm which is sticking out in front of you, making it really easy to grapple, so while i think this would be good in formation with spears, if you end up fighting close with your enemy they can easily maneuver you, get you off balance and kill you or throw you on the ground and bash your head in with their own shield. The fact that it inadvertently protects you while you have it to your side though actually might answer my question though now that i think about it, once shit hits the fan take your hand out so you can grapple with one hand and grab your dagger with the other

[@Confedyank]

Ok there Mr Shield Hero