The "hardest step" in evolution of life on Earth | Adam Frank and Lex Fridman

[@LexClips]

Lex Fridman Podcast full episode: kzbin.info/www/bejne/r5m9couOfp1mY5Y Thank you for listening ❤ Check out our sponsors: lexfridman.com/sponsors/cv8329-sa See below for guest bio, links, and to give feedback, submit questions, contact Lex, etc. *GUEST BIO:* Adam Frank is an astrophysicist studying star systems and the search for extraterrestrial life and alien civilizations. *CONTACT LEX:* *Feedback* - give feedback to Lex: lexfridman.com/survey *AMA* - submit questions, videos or call-in: lexfridman.com/ama *Hiring* - join our team: lexfridman.com/hiring *Other* - other ways to get in touch: lexfridman.com/contact *EPISODE LINKS:* Adam's Website: adamfrankscience.com Adam's X: x.com/adamfrank4 Adam's Instagram: instagram.com/adamfrankscience Adam's Books: The Little Book of Aliens: amzn.to/3OTX1rP Light of the Stars: amzn.to/4iMKC6C The Blind Spot: amzn.to/4gOCe4K The Constant Fire: amzn.to/3ZVnxX4 *SPONSORS:* To support this podcast, check out our sponsors & get discounts: *Encord:* AI tooling for annotation & data management. Go to lexfridman.com/s/encord-cv8329-sa *Eight Sleep:* Temp-controlled smart mattress cover. Go to lexfridman.com/s/eight_sleep-cv8329-sa *Shopify:* Sell stuff online. Go to lexfridman.com/s/shopify-cv8329-sa *NetSuite:* Business management software. Go to lexfridman.com/s/netsuite-cv8329-sa *BetterHelp:* Online therapy and counseling. Go to lexfridman.com/s/betterhelp-cv8329-sa *Notion:* Note-taking and team collaboration. Go to lexfridman.com/s/notion-cv8329-sa *LMNT:* Zero-sugar electrolyte drink mix. Go to lexfridman.com/s/lmnt-cv8329-sa *AG1:* All-in-one daily nutrition drinks. Go to lexfridman.com/s/ag1-cv8329-sa *PODCAST LINKS:* - Podcast Website: lexfridman.com/podcast - Apple Podcasts: apple.co/2lwqZIr - Spotify: spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 - RSS: lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ - Podcast Playlist: kzbin.info/aero/PLrAXtmErZgOdP_8GztsuKi9nrraNbKKp4 - Clips Channel: kzbin.info *SOCIAL LINKS:* - X: x.com/lexfridman - Instagram: instagram.com/lexfridman - TikTok: tiktok.com/@lexfridman - LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/lexfridman - Facebook: facebook.com/lexfridman - Patreon: patreon.com/lexfridman - Telegram: t.me/lexfridman - Reddit: reddit.com/r/lexfridman

[@isatousarr7044]

The "hardest step" in the evolution of life on Earth is a widely debated topic, as it depends on the criteria used such as improbability, complexity, or the transformative impact on the biosphere. Below are a few key contenders for this designation: The Origin of Life (Abiogenesis) The leap from non-living chemistry to self-replicating, metabolically active life is often considered the hardest step. It required the spontaneous formation of molecules like RNA or pre-RNA capable of storing and transmitting genetic information. The improbability of the right conditions, such as a suitable energy source, chemical environment, and molecular stability, makes this step a formidable barrier. Even with advances in abiogenesis research, the exact mechanisms remain elusive, reinforcing its reputation as a "hard" step. The Emergence of Eukaryotes The transition from simple prokaryotic cells to complex eukaryotic cells is another candidate. This step likely involved endosymbiosis, where one cell engulfed another, leading to organelles like mitochondria and chloroplasts. The coordination required between host and endosymbiont genomes and the evolution of cellular complexity (e.g., a nucleus, cytoskeleton) marked a profound increase in life's complexity. Multicellularity The evolution of multicellularity represents a major leap, requiring cells to cooperate, specialize, and forego individual reproduction for the sake of the organism. The transition demanded novel mechanisms for communication, adhesion, and apoptosis (programmed cell death), which are challenging evolutionary innovations. The Development of Consciousness If focusing on the evolution of humans, the emergence of consciousness might be the hardest step. Consciousness involves not just intelligence but self-awareness, abstract thinking, and complex social behaviors. The genetic, neurological, and environmental conditions needed for this leap are still subjects of intense research and speculation. The Cambrian Explosion The rapid diversification of life forms during the Cambrian period, often referred to as the "Big Bang" of evolution, might also be a hard step. It required the development of new body plans, sensory systems, and ecological interactions, dramatically reshaping Earth's biosphere in a relatively short evolutionary timescale. Reflection on the Hardest Step Each of these milestones reflects a moment when life overcame an enormous barrier, often with low odds of success. The "hardest step" could vary depending on perspective, whether it is the improbability of life's start, the complexity of cooperation in multicellularity, or the enigmatic leap to consciousness.

[@emergentform1188]

Great stuff, thanks guys!

[@sonliving]

Ever learning, but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth - ( Timothy )

[@jefforious2000]

Timmy!!!!

[@aurora8]

People This 2 man's it's so wisdom and smart.Yes very

[@joeschmoe2011]

What all ingredients are needed for evolution to occur? You need chemical makeup/mixture, appropriate temperature, movement and time. Maybe the movement can be simply a planet rotating. Moving forward in time is mandatory but also necessary. Then there is the issue of disturbance. Some evolution is because of disturbance. Other evolution is just from the passage of time, adapting to an environment. Or is adapting to an environment also a type of disturbance? It would be interesting to see if there are different types of evolutions from different causes and each of their effects on a species.

[@3vil3lvis]

A moon that introduces environmental variability promotes life form locomotion. On planets without this condition, life may lack any movement at all.... No movement = highly evolved couch potatoes.

[@JeffHorne]

Why does no one ever mention reproduction as a hard step? I imagine that abiogenesis had to happen many times before it also happened to reproduce. Abiogenesis seems hard enough…the chances that it can have the ability to reproduce, and do so before before dying, seems very hard.

[@bansheeracing423]

Hey Lex .. merry Christmas !! Be safe my friend .

[@deanoost9599]

Life eats life. Seems there must be multiple forms of life created simultaneously.....to sustain itself.

[@caracoidwren944]

I wish Lex had pushed him more on the complexity of the "hard steps." In particular people have mentioned the first method for locomotion used by cells, the flagella. This would have been a new cellular feature that is EXTREMELY complex. It involves generating electricity to power it from between a cell's membranes. The parts that go into it are vast, and if anyone has ever seen an atomic image of one of these, you could see that it could never have evolved by chance of each of the hundreds--of even thousands--of atoms just happening to fall into place. And without any one of them, the flagella doesn't work. I have a computer depiction of all the atomic elements that go into it, and when you look, nobody could ever claim that it just happened to come together. And there are no "small steps" in making it. They're either all there or it doesn't work. They call it nature's incredible rotating electric motor. I don't care how many cells there were in the world at the time of the flagella's creation and how long a period of time it took, there is no way it just happened to amass all these critical parts and place them exactly where they need to be by chance.

[@Age_of_Apocalypse]

"... where they need to be by chance" I totally agree! I think there is way more to understand how evolution works for creating extraordinary complex systems like human beings. 🤔

[@Sestaak]

"by chance" can mean a few things, but no matter how unlikely it may seem, the incomprehensible amount of particles each affecting one another as they interact according to the fundamental "laws" of nature, I find it to be incredibly likely that at some point things would "just fall into place". They have to, because only this formation makes sense on an atomic level. It's incredibly likely on any "human" scale, time or space-wise, but at the same time on some level it's just likely enough.

[@hamishdowling4163]

I’m not a biologist, but I can’t help but feel this sort of sentiment is wilfully ignorant of the actual mechanism of natural selection. The only random aspect is the mutation of DNA. An organism’s ability to survive in a given environment is not random, and that is the mechanism of selection. Again, I don’t know the details of how flagella evolved, but to imply that a bunch of cells just randomly arranged themselves that way one day is straight up disingenuous. Darwin figured this idea out a loooong time ago

[@caracoidwren944]

@@Sestaak I saw a podcast where three experts in various fields had come together to try to explain this. The mathematician actually crunched the numbers necessary to understand the likelihood of it happening and he had no doubt that it couldn't happen just by chance. The final odds of it happening were at such an extreme that the number of living cells prior to its development were factors upon factors less than the odds of it occurring.

[@caracoidwren944]

​@@hamishdowling4163 You've repeated the conventional wisdom quite well. Actually the idea that there are many holes in Darwin's explanations is becoming a mainstream belief. There are mechanisms at play that Darwin's theories just don't explain that many biologists have come to understand. The observed passing of one trait to the next generation merely by its usage by the parent being one. As for whether or not what we see today in the flagella is the result of evolution, if it were, it would have had to have happened so quickly it left no impression yet discovered in the fossil record. Also, not sure how it would be easy to craft a workable tail, with all its moving parts and need for a separate energy source at one crack, even if somehow it was able to be simplified. Even if a creature had developed part of an otherwise useless construction that would have led to what we see in the fossil record as the flagella, it would have had to have retained this oddity generation after generation as it built upon itself and any construction within its body requires energy to create and maintain, lessening its chance of survival. In other words, generations would have to drag this otherwise useless impediment along with them. In fact, it would have had to have been at it for eons for each atom to fall in place exactly where it needs to be. But evidence of this is lacking. Funny thing is that even Darwin right at the beginning of his book, "On the Origin of Species," acknowledged he could only observe so far into life itself, being limited to comparatively rudimentary microscopes and such, and that future discoveries and technological advances could very well end up contradicting his thesis. Things like atomic photography, for instance, were unknown to him as was the very existence of atoms themselves.

[@lesrankins5025]

I think there is one “hard step”, going from single cell to multi cellular. Life appeared on earth pretty much as soon as it had cooled down enough for it to be possible. It then took 3 billion years for multicellular life to appear. In the galaxy, I don’t speak of the universe because it is too remote, life is as common as dirt. Multicellular life is very rare and intelligence even rarer, somewhere between 0 and 2 intelligent species.

[@robtronik]

Wake me when anyone can recreate starting life in a lab.

[@ruttnerd]

Your point is?

[@trumpdrago517]

@@ruttnerdevolution isn’t real is mine…

[@Psalm1101]

Me too after 75yrs since Miller no life made in the lab

[@Zrokool123]

What he said is the "point" ​@@ruttnerd

[@stevefrost3362]

OK!

[@tonynagy2042]

I 'always' have real trouble trying to understand a few things. How does 'something' know that there is 'light' / 'sound'', and therefore has to develop eyes and ears? Sorry for the stupid question, if you think that?. Thank you for all the interesting guest and thought provoking topics you share with us 👍👏. Cheers, Merry Christmas Happy Hanukkah and Blessings Lex, and to your Subs. ps: I have the greatest admiration for Professor Avi Loeb, he's my favorite.

[@TheScottdavis86]

here, this response from chatgpt-4o says it better than i can: The evolution of eyes or photoreceptors is one of the most fascinating topics in evolutionary biology. It is thought to have occurred in several gradual steps, starting with simple light-sensitive cells and progressing through various stages of complexity. Here's a simplified explanation: 1. Light-Sensitive Proteins Origins: The first step in the evolution of eyes likely involved light-sensitive proteins called opsins. Opsins are present in many organisms, including single-celled organisms. Function: These proteins helped organisms detect light and darkness, which could aid in processes like circadian rhythm regulation or movement toward or away from light (a behavior known as phototaxis). 2. Photoreceptor Cells Over time, opsins became concentrated in specialized cells, forming photoreceptor cells. These cells were more efficient at detecting light. The clustering of these cells allowed organisms to better sense changes in light intensity, an advantage in navigating their environment. 3. Formation of Pigment Cups To improve directional light detection, some organisms developed pigment cups, where light-sensitive cells were arranged in a concave shape. The pigment layer helped block light from certain directions, allowing the organism to sense the direction of light more accurately. Example: The eyespots of flatworms are a modern analog of this stage. 4. Evolution of Lenses A key innovation was the development of a lens or a similar structure. The lens could focus light onto the photoreceptor cells, improving resolution and sensitivity. Transparent cells or layers of tissue over the photoreceptors could bulge and eventually form rudimentary lenses. Example: Early mollusks are thought to have evolved simple lenses in this way. 5. Complex Eyes Over millions of years, these structures became more sophisticated, leading to the wide variety of eyes seen today, including compound eyes (as in insects) and camera-like eyes (as in vertebrates and cephalopods). Natural selection likely drove this process, with each incremental improvement in light detection, resolution, or focus providing survival advantages. Supporting Evidence Comparative Anatomy: Existing organisms, like jellyfish, flatworms, and mollusks, display various stages of eye complexity, providing a "snapshot" of evolutionary steps. Genetics: Studies show that opsins and other photoreceptor-related genes are conserved across many species, suggesting a common origin. Fossil Evidence: Fossil records of trilobites and other ancient creatures show early eye-like structures. This step-by-step evolution, driven by natural selection and small genetic changes over time, demonstrates how even complex organs like eyes can arise from simpler beginnings.

[@KentoLeoDragon]

All atoms and molecules can absorb energy from light and other forms of radiation. Light is a great energy source and the first primitive precursors to plants figured out floating near the surface exposed them to more light energy. Kinda makes sense as life became more complex it would find it useful to get better and better at sensing light. Sound is possibly like touch, and it would have been useful for life to learn to "touch" the environment and hearing is kind of another way of "touching" the environment. Just my 2 cents.

[@jonathan2847]

The things that don't detect light or sound die, that's how evolution happens. It doesn't know to evolve to detect something, it simply produces a million mutations where one detects something and all the others die.

[@TheOGBraveheart]

Check out Dr. Jonathan Marks. All you need to know. #anthropology #evolution

[@williamturner-v1s]

Luigi is a patriot.

[@XAirForcedotcom]

The next step in human evolution is going to be messy as the robot driven by AI take over. It will be quick, but it’s not gonna look good.

[@JungleJargon]

The hardest step is the first step and every other one after that. It’s all impossible every step of the way.

[@nicholas11121]

Which first step? Bacteria? Single cells, viruses or multi cells

[@JungleJargon]

@ LUCA

[@jimmiizzy6283]

It's got to be a spiritual thing that people don't get it. I was an evolutionary/atheist growing up. But now I can see how utterly impossible naturalistic evolution is. People need to put away the "just so" stories and pull our a calculator.

[@JungleJargon]

@@jimmiizzy6283 Yep, you got that right.

[@markp4967]

The "smarter" they are, the more easily they are fooled...

[@Psalm1101]

Lee cronin and james tour say no life in the lab they have no idea

[@buffalobill3426]

They have absolutely no clue Same reason they invented dark matter

[@e.daniels5971]

My skepticism needle on this guy went into the red zone. Seems more like a PR Rep for status quo narratives than actual scientist - if such a thing exists anymore.

[@crappymeal]

Really the only part we have trouble understanding was kicking it all off with the first lifeforms and even that might turn out to be "easy"

[@cliffsauer9111]

Well that and every other evolutionary change is incredible hard. Plus it all happened in an incredibly small period of time according to fossil record. Also it’s definitely isn’t easy bc using all the parts of a cell we can’t put it back together and create life even when the parts are already made. How they randomly came into existence when they are so dependent on each other also seems to be a big mystery.

[@crappymeal]

@cliffsauer9111 evolution is not particularly hard and the time period is at least 3.7 billion years

[@crappymeal]

@@cliffsauer9111 it's not easy for us because life is complicated to build and we haven't got the same amount of time, even "simple" life

[@InterestingFacts10]

maybe life started in space.

[@evaadam3635]

"Hardest Step in Evolution of Life" The hardest step is to find how much voltage it requires for neural current to take a break from physical law to choose on its own to believe in Spiritual GOD ...

[@hazedcosmo8522]

The hardest thing for humans to overcome: being equal

[@ThinkTwice2222]

Almost like there's a "God-like" being orchestrating the whole thing..hmmm 🤔

[@markportnoy6290]

Evolution is an appeal to magic.

[@I-am-Shambala]

Ummm... Everything has Life, Everything has Intelligence

[@archmage_of_the_aether]

Mostly Hinduism and Buddhism would say "everything has Consciousness" but this doesn't imply awareness, intelligence or especially life

[@I-am-Shambala]

@@archmage_of_the_aether Everything has Life, Everything has Intelligence, Everything has Consciousness - so says @I-am-Shambala

[@archmage_of_the_aether]

@I-am-Shambala so... you think consciousness and intelligence are the same thing?

[@I-am-Shambala]

@@archmage_of_the_aether You may learn a lot by studying Dr. David R. Hawkins - Map of Consciousness

[@I-am-Shambala]

@@archmage_of_the_aether You may learn a lot by studying Dr. David R. Hawkins - Map of Consciousness

[@garytilghman2911]

The clotting of blood had to be right the first time. Think about how that fits in with evolution theories.

[@michalswiderski507]

Total bs sorry, meaningless talk.