The Hidden Politics of Outbound Flight

[@CoreysDatapad]

Thanks for watching! I'm sure the comment section on this one will be completely reasonable. If you want to check out my history channel, it can be found here: www.youtube.com/@commonhistory

[@grandmoffjake6871]

Now if you end up making me dislike something about one of my favorite star wars novels I am going to riot!! JK, interest in seeing how OF connects to Iran War. People often say how each new wave of star wars has got more political, I think at times it might just be we were too young to notice when they were wacking us over the head with it back in the day.

[@CoreysDatapad]

I disagree with the idea that it got *more* political, but as you get closer to people reading stuff from "contemporary" times where they recognize the issues more directly, they'll stand out more to them than older connections they're less able to make. Very few people would watch the OT and automatically pick up on some of what George is saying about Nixon, for example, because it got less directly relevant to people as time went on. Some of the messages also shift from author to author. Denning especially has some pretty conservative ideas that don't make it into Lucas' work, for example.

[@michaelandreipalon359]

A pity some of Denning's... quirks made it to his post-NJO projects.

[@giladpellaeon1691]

Star Wars fan and a history buff! Well the Empire approves of your Common History channel too. Watched the giraffe short and you need a short about the pig that killed a French king now also.

[@aUnhealthybreakfast]

This is a really interesting piece, I'd like to see more work like this.

[@TheDerpsKast]

Absolutely. This kind of analysis is a rare find

[@kajamiletic3223]

Hi, I loved this! And I would love to see you do a video on the Ascendancy trilogy, because I felt like it was a significant shift from Thrawn's Legends logic. Purely because the Grysk, unlike the Vong, seem to conquer through almost entirely political means, and yet Thrawn is convinced that an authoritarian regime like the Empire is the appropriate answer to a threat that exploits the exact same weaknesses the Empire has when the Chiss would probably benefit more from strenghtened political institutions and an interrogation of why the fuck it's so easy to artificially kick start a major civil war between several of its major political players. I don't know if that's what Zahn meant to say but I really liked how despite Thrawn's flawless execution of military strategy everyone was way worse off at the end of the last book entirely because of the Ascendancy's bad politics (and lack of willingness to cooperate with aliens on equal terms), which were only made worse by increased suspicion all around due to so many people making concessions around Thrawn. Even if it wasn't, I still found it an interesting choice to have the "scary looming threat" both tailor made to Thrawn's weaknesses (which will make them scarier to him) and whose influence is near impossible to defeat through military means because they're mostly not attacking through military means. I felt like there's a lot to unpack there about the role of institutions and political culture and and diplomacy I'd love to see you in particular unpack it :)

[@adams13245]

Really Zahn is going to have an enemy that isn't defeatable via pure military grit and tactical genius? Because from Outbound Flight, Thrawn comes off as less a genius and more coasting on the utter incompetence of his enemies. Mainly that he baits a trade federation's starfighters into attacking his ships, lures them to the max signal range, then, for some reason the TF commander orders his fighters to the edge. Which makes them instantly turn around and go on an unstoppable route back to the command ship. They don't have turreted weapons and can't recieve orders to turn around and fight. It's an utterly idiotic system and it's the main reason Thrawn wins that fight. He then goes into the TF ship and seeing its gaudy decor guesses that the TF are cowardly. True, but that comes more from luck and the audience's knowledge that all Nemodians are cowards to the core. He somehow gets a Nemodian commander to order the reprogramming of the starfighters, despite the terror of failing Palpatine on said commander, the technology being utterly alien the Thrawn's society and highly technical (I would hope) to boot. The whole thing comes off as Zahn softballing the problems faced by Thrawn because most readers won't care about analysing the Nemodians' utter incompetence. Thrawn isn't a genius in Outbound Flight, he's the author's pet who gets put up against foes who can't see basic problems, like "What if part of our force needs to retreat while under attack"and come up with a workable solution. Then again, considering how contrary the whole character of Thrawn is I wonder if he's just a way for Zahn to shove his neocon militerism at us.

[@patton3rd1]

Yo, this was awesome Cory. Really enjoy this! Feel like a long form blend of regular Star Wars lore content with your new historic politics shorts channel.

[@adams13245]

Good point about how Zahn softballs the problems with military interventionism in Outbound Flight. I think a major theme of it was less that Thrawn was super intelligent, and more that the enemies he faces have serious competence problems. Like how the Trade Federation sends out their droid starfighters after Thrawn's ships. Thrawn has his ships retreat drawing the droids to their maximum signal range. Instead of having said droids hold at that range, the TF commander orders them right to the edge- at which point, instead of holding, they turn and go back to the ship, allowing Thrawn to turn his fighters around and blow them up with impunity. First of all, why would you make it automatic that, when a ship reaches the limit of its operational range it returns back to the carrier automatically? That's just asking for trouble. Secondly why would the commander not be informed of this flaw and told to not put his fighters at maximum range, unless he wants them to all retreat? It's a really bad system, that is vital to Thrawn winning that battle. Secondly, when Thrawn boards the vessel, he just knows that the commanders are cowards because they have gaudy stuff there. It's true, but it's less a logical deduction, and more a lucky guess; Thrawn can just see one aspect of the ship and know some deep insight to their psychology. That and he ropes in one of the nemodians to reprogram all of their star fighters to carry suicide bombs. And it works. That's a hell of a gamble, to have recently captured enemies reprogram a technology that's completely new to your entire species and society and make it central to your upcoming battle plans. It really shows how supposed competance in fiction can be created from authorial favoritism. I feel like you make a good point about how Zahn is clearly supporting a neoconservative view of copious intervention and the idea that America's best interests (somehow) align with every other good country's interests. Seems pretty simplistic and dangerous. Good point about the Geroon being assumed to be grateful helpers to Thrawn, instead of say, sectarian people unused to freedom who have long standing tribal differences between themselves. I've heard good things about the later Thrawn books; thing is a lot of it comes off as worshipping the blue admiral because he seems smart. It comes off less as a interesting character, and more as a pro military, pro authoritarianism mouthpiece for conservative fans and Zahn himself. Like how Thrawn only utters some complaints over the Death Star being used to blow up Alderaan, and the supposed genius doesn't recognize the great evil it is, or the possibility of making a better government that is both prepared for the Yuuzhan Vong/ Grysk and isn't an authoritarian hell hole. Seems like Zahn thinks the Empire is legitimately better and can't recognize that there are more options than the empire and (presumably) unprepared rebels.

[@marty2129]

Honestly, I think it also comes to an issue with Zahn wanting to portray Thrawn as infallible genius protagonist here... He went this way with other of his creations in his later SWEU works, basically fanboying his own creations... The reference to politics and Iraq could be there, but the lack of meaningful, justifiable opposition to Thrawn's actions is IMHO more tied with Zahn's self-fanboyism...

[@nuancedhistory]

Oh I've been waiting for this video. Watching now. This is my favorite Star Wars book and when you mentioned this I was like "oh fuck." EDIT: In their defense the Dreadnaught-class is stated to be really fast in a straight line and it can be upgraded to a Class 2 Hyperdrive, so it's not the slowest ship imaginable. It's also durable, reliable, retrofittable, and has a lot of crew space that can be converted for colonists, so it actually makes sense. EDIT 2: See I think the fundamental issue is that Zahn set it up so Thrawn lured the Jedi into solving the Vagaari problem for him. He casts Thrawn as morally right with no potential repercussions because he uses space magicians to avoid the repercussions, since only they could shoot around the bubbles containing the captives.

[@CoreysDatapad]

Eck seems to ahve a lot of fun bullying ships so I just wanted to get in on it.

[@nuancedhistory]

@@CoreysDatapad fair enough. I really think you should submit some of your research into the Political history of Star Wars to one of the major History conferences.

[@mb9484]

I kinda forgot Thrawn was in this book, compared to how big a scenery-chewer C'baoth was

[@TheMokeleMbembe]

This is such a rare type of analysis, thank you for making videos like this. I always liked Zahn's books (and still do!), especially the Hand of Thrawn duology, which I returned to after the ST was announced/released. The themes of those books seemed so much more suited to a Sequel Trilogy story or era. In addition to that, though, I got the sense that the Empire was being justified in some ways - as with there being a distinction made between people like Pellaeon vs. Disra's faction, the idea that Thrawn only wanted to use the military might of the Empire to stop a greater threat that only he knew about... It's kind of interesting to think of that thought process in terms of military interventionism (cf. the USA taking action in response to the supposed existence of WMDs, which the US was unable to prove and ultimately turned out to be egregiously wrong), or the Pellaeon/Disra difference as between 'honorable' people who just like Order and Authority vs. 'true fascists.' But I'm not sure those deeper questions are really explored, and it made me wonder about Zahn's politics a little. I've never read Outboud Flight, but this is so interesting to learn about.

[@TheYargonaut]

I think Outbound Flight presents the other side of the argument in a different conflict, namely C'baoth vs the Colonists. There, Zahn explores paternalism vs self-determination and it is not a large leap to draw parallels between C'baoth's philosophy "Jedi know best, therefore should run society" and "America knows best, etc," plus the Jedi overriding the colonist government, the colonists chafing under the interventions, and so on. If we take the resolution of the two conflicts at face value, the story seems to come down simultaneously in favor of intervention (when set against isolation) and of self-determination (when set against paternalism). Since they're kept separate, the conflicts can be resolved in their own frames and the arguments stand on their own with equal dignity.

[@CoreysDatapad]

There's elements of that which I could see standing up, but especially considering his framing of the issue (both in the book with how the conflict with the Vagaari is set up, and out of the book where the pre-emptive strike is the focus) the comparison feels a little more tentative and I would at least be less sure of the intend, though death of the author and so on applies. Ultimately though, the resolution to the C'baoth storyline is still Thrawn coming in and killing him. At least there we do get more of the colonist's perspective and the fact that it doesn't go perfectly, thoughThrawn's intervention goes wrong not because of his own choices but because C'bath oversteps against him and ruins things for everyone else, which would be a step back and would itself tie into the neocon presentation. To me C'baoth seems just as easily intended as yet another potential Saddam stand-in along those lines himself than a representation of Americans in a critique of the Neocon worldview. Definitely an interesting possibility though, thanks for the comment!

[@charlieo1138]

So glad you were able to put this video together. Really strong work and a very interesting video.

[@silencedogood5173]

Well done, Corey. So, you’re saying an unintentional moral of this book from Zahn’s perspective is that myopic military intervention is a slippery slope that leads to becoming glorified space nazis? 😂 Just couldn’t resist poking fun at Zahn here. Your analysis is well done and supported here. Zahn’s thinking just doesn’t seem to square with his own books. Thrawn’s own future as he wrote in earlier books is hardly an endorsement of him doing the right thing in this one.

[@adams13245]

Honestly, that seems to be a better view than the one that plenty of Zahn fans have, which is that militant totalitarianism is better because it's efficient and they've got this one (supposedly) smart dude. Just ignore the planet destroying superweapons and major repression, the smart dude is really cool and totally smart.

[@klamburglar3496]

This may be the most Corey video of all time

[@dtinagliastudios]

Such a fantastic video. I’d love to see more stuff like this on SW KZbin in general! You’re becoming one of my favorite channels on the whole platform

[@sorted.rewarded26]

I always interpreted this one as being anti Iraq war..."don't try to colonize outside your domain, or else things will go to shit" kind of situation.

[@CoreysDatapad]

But that's very much the opposite of how the book presents it. *Maybe* if you disregard every element of the Chiss and Vagaari story line and boil it down entirely to "the Outbound Flight is leaving the galaxy to do colonies and it went poorly," but that ignores the very clear message Zahn is trying to argue for where it's the responsibility of the Chiss to defeat the bullying Vagaari outside of their borders, and everyone who thinks the proactive, pre-emptive strike is wrong. When Zahn himself is talking about pre-emptive strikes as the related issue, and the pre-emptive strikes the book is talking about are coming from the Chiss, I don't think the idea that it's actually about Outbound Flight (the ship, not the novel) and that it's using that as an anti-pre-emptive strike message. Also, the fact that it's framing the issue of Iraq as being primarily about pre-emptive strikes gives away a lot of the connections he's making there.

[@sorted.rewarded26]

@@CoreysDatapad Oh, you make that argument beautifully--I haven't read this for many many years. I truly appreciate how you're using this to talk about political/historical issues too, it's awesome to see Star Wars getting...well, actual literary criticism.

[@LukeSkydragon]

Now this is the kind of Eu critique i love to see not any of that silly corpo (disney) bootlicking stuff but real deep analysis of the complex topics and messages of the books!

[@Romaboo680]

Jedi Acquisitions: The choice is yours alone. We will not force you to give up your child C'Baoth: G I V E M E T H E C H I L D!

[@giladpellaeon1691]

Comments seem pretty chill Corey probably because a lot of us did not fully pick up the Iraq War-Outbound Flight connection plus Zahn is pretty chill about politics (and in general recently got to meet and chat with him at RIComiccon, in costume).

[@uriustosh]

Very interesting video. Not only are the politics of Outbound Flight bad, but they completely contradict Lucas' own anti-war, anti-authoritarian, anti-imperialist message and theme of Star Wars.

[@DarkVaati13]

Very interesting! I remember reading somewhere that Isard's Revenge was also an allegory for a real conflict, but I can't find it anywhere.

[@georgekostaras]

Thrawn is one of those characters I want to love but I don’t. He’d make for an amazing villain protagonist.

[@gbadspcps2]

Always interesting to see Thrawn content. What is the picture at 9:14 of?

[@CouncilCape897]

It's the cover of Thrawn Ascendancy: Lesser Evil

[@zkapsh]

Great video, was not expecting this but it's great anyhow

[@Devdev009]

I really enjoyed this! I haven’t read outbound flight, but I have listened to the ascendency audiobooks and have felt uneasy about the “hero-ification” of Thrawn. I feel he works better as a villain, and it really does feel that Zahn tries to moralize and soften Thrawn from the duology onward. Something that makes me take a step back and question why the story seems to root for him, and in some cases makes some audience members pro-Empire.

[@Devdev009]

And I know people decry politics in media, but I especially enjoyed the historical and academic analysis of the context in which the book was written and how it reflects the events of the height of the neocon movement.

[@Martian2607]

Definitely agree, my favorite books thrawn is in are the original thrawn trilogy books. I liked that he was kind of an anti Vader, by helping his allies learn instead of just killing them… usually

[@adams13245]

I think a large part of the problem with Thrawn is that Zahn began to believe the hype from his fans and the idea that, deep down, Thrawn is really a good guy. Well, that and the idea that random guesses supported by the author count as logic. It feels like contrariness and authoritarianism are seen as good... "cause the Empire has to be good, my complexity." That and a rather shallow view of intelligence as meaning Thrawn can simply use basic intuition to be correct about 95% of things. That and I find the art analysis really unrealistic and dumb; how the hell are you supposed to find actionable military lessons from random paintings, presumably from cultures that have thousands of the things at least? It's like trying to figure out what to have for lunch by looking at the weather, the two are nearly completely unrelated.

[@dajosh42069]

Damn dude, really nice video. You're very much growing as a content creator.

[@Hartzilla2007]

I do wonder how much of it is less political views and more being a bit overly attached to Thrawn.

[@marckrieger3277]

That was a great indepth analysis of real world politics influencing star wars storys. I read this book the first time a few years ago and was not aware it was a defence of the second iraq war, thanks for the education i really wish for mor videos like this!

[@lemonworm]

based video from Corey pointing stuff like this out. Really appreciate it.

[@LegendIraqi]

Seeing this is devastating i was only 6 years old when America invaded my country iraq, I have this blurry memory of seeing buildings explode and weapons on the ground I didn’t get to see much of it because jordan 🇯🇴 took my Family as refugees. i first started watching star wars when i was 9 years old seeing this makes me feel so sad and angry inside

[@ultimatetwitteruser6810]

You were only 6 years old seeing those stuff? That’s horrifying I hope you’re doing okay now

[@isd_chimaera8335]

I read all of outbound flight and didn’t even think about this connection. Well done Corey!

[@brunobertossi]

Great Video and very brave to voice an opinion like this in a fandom like these. Love your content!

[@elitestranger5262]

I think it’s a bit of a stretch to say that the book is meant to justify America’s involvement in Iraq based on a single quote by Zhan. I did, however, find your points regarding the moral argument of the book to be interesting. Also there’s no reason to badmouth the dreadnoughts as their module design is exactly what’s needed for a long-range exploration mission such as Outbound Flight

[@daHarry-ec4ce]

Thanks for touching on this topic.

[@TiberiasCassius-]

Always love watching your videos and as far as a commentary on current events, if you look at the Black Fleet Crisis it lines up very well with the post Yugoslavian conflicts of the 90s in my opinion.

[@gaflene]

As someone who has studied anthropological theory (a series of fascinating classes I did universally terribly in despite finding them very interesting) Thrawn's cultural analysis, the thing that made him so Sherlockian in his ability to take apart an enemy just by looking at their art, reminded me so much of structural-functionalism that I couldn't help making fun of him for it in class. No one found me calling him Evans-Pritchard in space funny, which may or may not explain the constant struggle to get Bs in those classes. Thanks for making this video, I started picking up on the Iraq war political theory when reading the Thrawn books, and having grown up in the whole mileau it made me pretty uncomfortable, so I never finished them. If the Ascendancy books are a bit more balanced in their portrayal, I might go back to them.

[@thegreenmanofnorwich]

I do like parallels and analysis. As long as a fiction has a broadly internally consistent world, I tend to take it as it's presented. I do really like these sorts of videos.

[@CG-uo6wu]

I enjoyed the video and the connections u have made here and make sense with the little knowledge of the iraq war i have.

[@oscarg4107]

After reading the chapter of lorana feeling cbsoth fall to the dark side and the Starfighters radiation bombing the dreadnaughts. I felt it was appropriate to play anakins betrayal theme

[@leosilvertongue3335]

Dammit, I wanted to make this video! But as I'm too lazy to actually start and maintain a channel, I'm glad to see this topic get some real engagement. Maybe this is too controversial, but I'd love to see a video on how the message, intentional or not, of the Agbui storyline in Thrawn Ascendancy: Greater Good seems to be that we should beware of refugees because they may be foreign operatives trying to destabilize our country from the inside. I enjoy Timothy Zahn's books from a creative and worldbuilding perspective, but it is interesting that in the midst of a very self consciously, at times heavy-handedly left-wing era of Star Wars publishing, Zahn continues to be an unchallenged bastion of conservatism.

[@CoreysDatapad]

I think I actually talked about that a bit on our podcast when we covered that trilogy, but it's something that you do get hints of in a few places (including the Vong War, though at least the ultimate message there is to not be shitty to refugees) so I'd like to do something with it somewhere. The Agbui and Vagaari are both really questionable but Zahn also has a bunch of other books where he uses refugee storylines which I'd want to at least check out if I were to say anything too in-depth on him.

[@ArcBing]

Gosh darn effing amazing video!

[@Jane_8319]

I’ve been reading the ascendancy trilogy, and I think there’s a clear through-line from Outbound Flight to that trilogy that tries to justify Thrawn’s actions because he’s the protagonist. I love the original Thrawn trilogy, but making Thrawn a hero who is always right is… questionable.

[@balawi3039]

I think 8:08 is such a big part of the issue. Although Thrawn is exiled, he is made to seem more as a martyr than anything else. A tangible consequence similar to Iraq war would be something along the lines of the Vagaari increasing it's attacks, enslavement and campaigns against the innocent people as a reaction to his strike (similar to how extremism thrived by using the invasion of Iraq for recruitment) or if his pre-emptive attack on the Separatist contingent actually allowed the Outbound flight to slip through. I am brought back to Kreia's quotes during the charity cutscene in KOTOR II about how you can create even greater injustice without properly considering the consequences of your actions, however noble they may seem. The additional problem is the fact the main "transgression" (attacking the Outbound Flight) is actually to prevent a Galactic scale war that threatens not only his people, but every living being in the Galaxy. It is such a wholistic moral high ground that even the villain who is supposed to be one of the pillars of evil in the universe, Palpatine, is seeking any means and willing to cooperate with anyone to prevent it. The only mental gymnastics I could do to even make it slightly comparable is a universe where they destroyed the Vong and discovered they were actually not planning to invade the galaxy at all (and were destroyed for no reason similar to Iraq over nonexistent WMDs) and even that feels like a stretch.

[@Harrier32]

I don't know if it would be a possible through line because it's 19 books written by multiple authors but an analysis of the NJO books would be fascinating. There's a lot of stuff there about religious fanatics, the supposed ineffective nature of democracies in crisis, and the morality of total war.

[@LordMephilis]

I was expecting some complex star wars politics. Though I am not disappointed. I do find it interesting that you often have to look for or be told about politics in good media. Whereas some media feels like it just beats you over the head with it.

[@dreadelectric7745]

I read the Outbound Flight years ago, I did not pick up on the Iraq War connection. THANKS Corey! 👍🏿

[@myphone9831]

Love this channel

[@ninjalectualx]

11:37 "it's important to shape circumstances before crises emerge" this failure is why we have trunp now

[@zacpatproductions2052]

I love this type of video

[@Oliver-ld3ei]

Very good video. I love hearing about how fiction is used to commentate on the realities of our own world.

[@CamillusofRome]

I wonder if a more fully developed argument against pre-emptive strikes were cut in editing for the sake of pace?

[@michaelandreipalon359]

For the video, or the books the video is talking about?

[@CamillusofRome]

@@michaelandreipalon359 sorry, I meant Zahn's book.

[@michaelandreipalon359]

@@CamillusofRome Appreciate the context.

[@JJJBunney001]

Probably, theres an old saying in writing "Is this the most interesting point of your characters life? If not not, why not write about that". People need to remember that entertainment is the main goal of books, movies, games etc. Heavy handed political analysis would definitely make the book a boring read

[@YourLifeWasting]

About to do an outbound flight star wars DND

[@goodmusicofthegoodkind]

This and The Senate Video are probably my favorite that you’ve done. Amazingly work Corey Winning. Would you ever do something like this for The Black Fleet Crisis in a real world political sense?

[@CoreysDatapad]

It's possible, though for those kinds of things I'd probably need to do it as an overall "here's what X theory would say about Y" rather than doing it like this, since this is the one that stuck out most to me as having been based on something specific. Unfortunately the videos like this are a ton of work and don't tend to do super well, so I'm not sure how often I can do them.

[@goodmusicofthegoodkind]

@@CoreysDatapad Yeah that's understandable, thanks for the reply. You've got a few typos in the description BTW.

[@antonioabreu5736]

Amazing video! I really enjoy the real life politics in Star Wars.

[@zweihundertneun6420]

I haven't read the book, but I really liked your analysis of it. While I liked the video, there are some things I want to criticize. A more in depth plot summary in the beginning would have been nice and while it is fine to compare the goals of the author to the finished work, I think a "The Death of the Author" style approach, and maybe only talking about the author and his intention in the end, would have worked better. The relativization of your argument, at 15:30, spoiled the video a bit. If you aren't convinced by your point, why should I, the viewer? But as I said, I enjoyed this video and your previous videos in which you discussed Star Wars from are more serious point of view and touched on real world topics. I really hope you keep making videos like this.

[@JJJBunney001]

This video isn't really for people who haven't read the book, doesn't mean you can't watch it but you might miss the reason he framed things the way he did

[@mb9484]

Did the title on this one change or did I just get Mandela Effect'd???

[@jacobbaker7763]

Such a well done video

[@iratepirate3896]

I absolutely adored this book and bought it on release back in 06. I had no idea it was intended to be an Iraq War allegory, though I guess the whole 'there are wars being fought beyond our view against brutal foes that conventional morality won't work against' message is interesting, even if controversial.

[@kanalkucker14]

Bush did Outbound Flight

[@wedgeantillies66]

Very interesting video and elaboration upon said book being a defence of the Iraq war. Which if it was the authors intent, wouldn't be the first time star wars has been used as a political allegory, given how original series films is supposedly using battle between Empire and rebels to portray Vietnam war.

[@crispy2802]

This was terrific.

[@demonicaxeman7264]

Dude.... Great video.

[@markthompson1400]

Will have to read it this book 😎

[@PenguinofD00mxxx]

Really enjoy your insights, and your ability to discuss Star Wars in a holistic in-depth way.

[@Melody_Raventress]

Well, wasn't expecting Iraq in my Star Wars, but a good analysis.

[@Rezikai]

It was an interesting video, and to a point a reflection of the the then political framework at the time. I don't agree as much as you do that it's a touchstone event/story linked to the neocon movement as in depth as it seems. Zahn was in a different place after the old EU was transitioning from the Legacy characters to the NJO taking over and Lucas' open dislike of Zahn's creation Mara Jade. I think Zahn was lucky to have that initial fan following and was able to continue to work with LFL on occasion. While the tonal shift at LFL was going on. The cold calculating dark choices/decisions that so many "heroes" are getting saddled with actually work better with a smart villain who can and many times DOES outsmart the heroes. It's... odd really so many heroes are being written to do dark things for the better good... while a villain like Thrawn is now being written softer as more heroic-ish. During the story I think Zahn was wanting to play both sides of ideals with analogy to a point but not so much so that it meant more then a chapter of the then softening-Thrawn as an anti-hero. I DO agree, this was one of the times I wasn't as thrilled with the way Thrawn was softballed with problems and much like the new-canon Thrawn books softening him to be more a Sherlock Holmes rather then a cold calculating tactician. Our Chiss Admiral who had a conscript beheaded on the bridge of the Chimera for being lethargic on duty is a far cry from the current version we have now.. and when this interview took place w/ Outbound Flight.. circa... 2007-09ish.

[@jackflanagan903]

What a banger of a video

[@nordrlond]

As a russian I could say that this is a pretty relevant stuff for my country)

[@Canes2311]

This is great

[@rileymosman2808]

It's kind of disappointing seeing the degree of nuance we could have seen with Outbound Flight. Love the analysis, but it's unfortunate to not see the book live up to its potential

[@MaxwellMurdok]

The chad Kevin J Anderson versus the virgin Timothy Zahn.

[@totalwar1793]

REEEEE WHY IS COREY PUTTING POLITICS IN MUH STAR WARS!!!! Seriously tho, keep up the good work! I love this!

[@mkooij]

People always use the same arguments to do bad things. 20 years ago it was this with the Iraq war. 2 years ago it was with corona. And its always from people who think they are doing the right thing. In that case one could argue that Zahn portrayed it correctly in his books because in the real word there are mostly people who argue "it's not optimal but in this case..dot dot dot", "what else would you have us do? Do (insert strawman)?"

[@kanalkucker14]

Your arguments are good, but I would need more proof to believe that Zann really shared those ultra conservative oppinions. It is true that the commarision he said he made is realized in a very one sided way, yes

[@elitestranger5262]

Just want to correct you on the ultra conservative point as neocons are the only major conservative group in America that’s strongly pro-war and they were all but eradicated by Trump’s anti war stances. Now it’s typically Democrats that are pro-war

[@ecth97]

To be fair to Zahn, at the time especially it was very difficult to look at and approach the “War on Terror” as anything other than a good thing. It’s really only in recent years that it’s seen in the US as even sort of ok to look at what the US was really doing in this supposedly “good” war.

[@elitestranger5262]

@@ecth97 it’s also entirely possible that he meant to say Afghanistan rather than Iraq as that war was largely justified by the Taliban refusing to hand over terrorists that just bombed the US

[@ecth97]

Not justified at all as it was really just about getting the resources in Afghanistan, same reason everyone tries to invade that country. Heck fucking Eric Prince the founder of Blackwater tried to convince the US government to just split the country between various PMC’s that would be in charge of managing resource extraction in their area of control.

[@Swag77entertainment]

Interesting concept and a good presentation of ideas. If I understand correctly, having lived through this thing and friends being affected and lost by this war, Iraq was an offshoot of personal vendetta and 9-11 politics that were riled up at the time. Folks thought another 9-11 style attack would happen, so "we'll bring the fight to them." Moreover, there was an attempt to block IRAN, edging the desire to have a nuke. With the US there, it'd stop Iran's nuking cravings by us keeping a closer eye on them. At least, that was the thought at the time with boots on the ground. The previous incursion was about Kuwait only and how they set off Saddam Hussein by calling his sister-in-law a whore of an animal like you don't say those things to a madman. And the US intervened due to the oil reserves and quelled the hate between these two groups. In essence, the US wanted the oil, and to get it, they had to help Kuwait fend off Iraq. A similar but different theater of what's going on in Ukraine, but now the foe is more armed than Iraq with nukes. *spoiler alert* Outbound Flight may be the 2 sides, but there were also the Far Outsiders or the Yuuzhan Vong. Grysks are Yuuzhan Vong Lite. Ar'alani had fought the Yuuzhan Vong, and they were vicious. Palpatine knew about them but didn't have details. Thrawn told Doriana the parties to report back to Palps. That's where the speculation rumor that the Death Star was built to fight off the Yuuzhan Vong -- at the time before Disney. Of course, that has changed.

[@werelemur1138]

I'm of the mindset that you can't write apolitical fiction because there are no apolitical people. "I like the world the way it is and I see no reason to change it" is very much a political position. I don't know if there is any way to determine whether Zahn deliberately strawmanned the anti-intervention arguments vs. completely not understanding them because intervention seemed like a slam-dunk case and "they're just following the rules" seemed like a more fair position than "the people who oppose Thrawn/Bush are just doing so because they are evil" which was very much a Republican/Conservative talking point at the time.

[@generalj216]

Hey pal I’m not sure what you’re talking about with that last part. I’m quite right wing and am thoroughly opposed to the Iraq war and Bush as a whole

[@yankeefederer1994]

Thrawn is a villian, and a full bore neo conservative ideology is pretty dang villainous. A Mary Sue like character like Thrawn where he's set up to be that much smarter than his opponents, while still adhering to a flawed epistemology can work, but it has to be done right. I completely agree that there was basically no real complexity to the scenarios Thrawn ended up dealing with. Even a foreshadowing of his blind spot that ended up killing him could have redeemed that hole in the plot, but Zahn didn't do that.

[@adams13245]

Yeah, Zahn and the Thrawn acolytes seem to think he's the best because he's shallowly smart. That and Outbound Flight really softballed the anti interventionism arguments.

[@-CrimsoN-]

And "fans" really wanna pretend like Star Wars was never "political"...

[@DIEGhostfish]

I mean it's not hidden if he gives an interview or blogpost or whatnot that says young thrawn is intended to be George Bush but competent.

[@CoreysDatapad]

I'm pretty confident 99% of people who read the book don't actually go and read those interviews. It's hidden in that it's not going to be obvious to most people from reading the book itself, and that even then it's not necessarily a given that it's the neocon framing specifically that he seems to be working under. I've personally never seen the one where he directly compares Thrawn to Bush, so if you have a link that'd be appreciated.

[@DIEGhostfish]

@@CoreysDatapad Oh, huh you're right he did more comment on the war itself rather than specific persons involved. I think I had just mentally summarized it as that, because I found it a funny phrasing.

[@DIEGhostfish]

Thrawn fancast: GWB painted blue

[@christophmahler]

*Well argued literary criticism* of a favourite of Yours. It would be worth it to try _to rank 'Expanded Universe' authors, according to plausibility of character development_ and 'maturity', insight or relevance of the plot as I haven't came across such a debate, yet. When it comes to the character of Thrawn, one could think of a topos, popular within _Prussian_ historiography and political myth, like e.g. the Nazi propaganda movie 'The Great King' (Harlan 1942) that includes *a common Prussian soldier during the Seven Years War* - symbolizing the German strategic situation after a bogged down invasion of the Soviet Union in a poor comparison - *who disobeys orders to save a decissive battle* only to be promoted _and_ bound to the wheel for insubordination... When it comes to the so called Neo-Conservative movement - Jewish former *Trotskyites that splinter from their 'consensus liberal' origins during the Vietnam War* and the rise of the decolonizing New Left - nobody would have disagreed with US unilateral interventionism if it really would have been *_a benign hegemony_*_ , stabilizing and modernizing_ Iraq, instead of doing _the exact opposite_ in *a policy of scorched earth* , arguably directed against an ever emergent China. Because people can rarely hide their 'position in the Force', neither common Christian folk nor actual 'grassroots' 'progressives' would relate to the strategy for a New American Century - leading to the outcome that *_preparing for what one fears most, in fact accelerates the very scenario_* e.g. in form of a *'security dilemma'* and arms race...

[@jokurajunimi]

People who generally critize asserting political views to star wars, which is by George Lucas words based on the Vietnam war, are just ignorant as this point

[@darthsyphilis6008]

It's my favorite Star Wars book. I hate your take, because of how plausible it is.

[@leowilliamson1573]

An IR theorist named Kenneth Waltz once laid out reasoning for why Saddam could not have been behind the 9/11 attacks in an interview. Paraphrasing, "The assumption is that Saddam isn't a rational actor, always stated by American media. Is he behaving differently, more crazy, in recent speeches and interviews versus older ones? No. So, if he is irrational, he has always been irrational, but you can't stay in power as he has, for 30 years and surrounded by enemy nations, and be totally irrational. At the very least in a way that has inhibited your state's ability to function, as even if Saddam were irrational, there's no reason to presume that everyone else in his government must be as well. Saddam would initiate a terrorist attack with a dirty bomb in somewhere like New York or the capitol. First, what gain is there in a terrorist attack versus just a conventional nuclear strike with a missile you don't have to sneak past customs? Both are acts of war, missiles don't rely on the sloppiness of your opponents, and they kill more. You aren't taking an enemy nation out through terrorism alone. You're simply provoking them to war with you. So, what payoff is there in methodology? Deniability, an attack without a man to blame. That is perhaps the greatest reason to assume it would not be Saddam who attacked us because if there were a major terrorist attack in New York, Saddam being rational would not be behind it. He wouldn't do it unless he thought he could come out without blame, which is exactly why he won't attack us. We hate him so much we'd blame him anyway for any attack from anyone." This interview was in the mid '90s.

[@lukelee7967]

I'm sorry to say this to anyone who thinks "keep politics out of X", well, I'm not. I'm not sorry for a very specific reason. The same people who falsely claim that they want politics kept out of media love politics in media. They just never want to hear anything political that they don't already agree with.

[@michelbauza8968]

It's hard to call the Iraq War a preemptive strike when it was based on blatant lies with the goal of acquiring few of the remaining oil sources not under the influence of the US. I see the similarities you highlighted but they were yet too weak to be seen like that by myself.

[@sageg58]

There is a lack of understanding of the causes of the insurgency in Iraq shown in the video, and its clearly coming from a preconceived notion that it wasn't justified. The majority of Iraqi citizens did treat the US soldiers as liberators at the start of the war, and the insurgency was mainly from part of saddams baathist military which was completely disbanded. The biggest mistake made in Iraq was not keeping the Iraqi military in place because now you have thousands of trained military age males with no job and relatively extreme views who are outcasts from their society. If the US had let the lower ranks of the military stay in place, the war would have ended much quicker and would likely be thought of more positively.

[@michaelandreipalon359]

That I sadly agree on. Oh, what I would do to change things via reality warping or time travel...

[@CoreysDatapad]

Painting ISIL as the remnant of the Ba'ath party would not be accurate. It's not like if the army was just left in place nothing bad would have come from the invasion being done. It would have helped in some areas, but it's not the only reason it went poorly. The entire point is the people in charge of the invasion thought they could just walk in and take out the regime and suddenly everything would be fine, despite the fact that there were many people from many perspectives telling them that no, it's not that simple.

[@devildolphin2102]

@@CoreysDatapad It’s called ISIS. 😂

[@aliciaaltair]

@@devildolphin2102 ISIS= The Islamic State of Iraq and Syria. ISIL= The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. The "Levant" includes countries other than Syria, meaning ISIL is accurate, while ISIS is the less accurate over-simplification that gained traction in the media early on and stuck.

[@devildolphin2102]

@@aliciaaltair Uh huh sure. That’s why “everybody” uses ISIL.

[@Caleb72301]

I thought the book was great 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@CoreysDatapad]

I'm not saying the book is bad, I'm just analyzing the themes and context of them. even if I'm doing that critically, I still enjoy the book.

[@nickvinsable3798]

🤔 . . . Fan fiction. More specifically, which fanmade _Star Wars_ content perfectly parallels both canon & legends contents, regardless of how serious or hilarious they are& such…

[@CoreysDatapad]

What?

[@michaelandreipalon359]

I still support our valiant efforts during the liberation wars. Sure, things are still rough, but the silver lining is that Iraq is not living a perpetual hell ruled by a madman as of late, compared to its grubby eastern neighbor. *That I'm grateful.* A shame war is prone to terrible legacy decisions, combined with the imbecility of public opinion. Edit: In short, I support the neoconservative foreign policy, although nowadays it sorely needs a more "liberal" and internationally appealing stance, especially if it then spreads beyond Earth's orbit in the coming centuries. Am always a good Samaritan/Big Darn Heroes guy, you know... hurts to see rogue elements in the world get away with their crimes with due response against them being nowhere to be found.