The History Of Beat Em' Ups - Part 2 (AVP Invented Character Action!)

[@PossessedGR]

Where's part 3, 4, 5 and 6? We need this series to reach 2024! These videos are among the best videos on the channel. Kriegor is so knowledgeable. Please continue these videos!

[@nimazsheik5152]

This is THE gaming channel for me. I found you through your RE4 Remake and I've been binging your stuff. Your focus on gameplay mechanics is awesome!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh I love to hear that my dude!!! Yes if you want relentless discussion on game mechanics and overall gameplay design, this is the place to be ha

[@ecobayguesthouse5971]

Yes this guy is do cool I thought he was complaining to be unique but he is so articulate about his critiques he won me over.

[@BoozeAholic]

Yeah Electric Underground reminds me of early 2000s internet, back when gaming discussion was centered around rulesets, tactics, strategy & game design. Crap, that's what The Fighting Game Community used to be until they became a bunch of Corporate diksukking SONY Capcom shills. Modern gaming is depressing because it's now the domain of failed artists when gaming used to revolve around competition.

[@boghogSTG]

Battle Circuit is a big checkpoint I think. It has a juggle combo system that rewards you with extra coins which are then used to upgrade your character & buy moves between stages. It's practically a prototype for the "character action" style of beat em ups that came later in that sense. I don't think it's a coincidence either - Capcom developed both genres heavily, and most of developers like Mikami, Kamiya and Itagaki were big into arcade games themselves. Some were even mentored by arcade developers. Love this vid series btw! More people need to understand how much of what they love comes from these old games.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yes it actually blew my mind when Kriegor mentioned how much of the combat system of knights of the round was lifted and placed into dark souls, dark souls is the 3d knights of the round ;-)

[@KrieGor27]

A real butter this Battle Circuit. Such smooth gameplay. If only it featured pick-up weapons and offered a lot more enemies to fight at the same time. The first few stages are boringly easy, and the last two are disjointed. It has been inspired by Ninja Baseball Bat Man. Green from NBBM is obviously Green in BC, Red is Blue, Blue is Silver and Yellow is Pink. On paper, I think NBBM is the better game, but in my heart, I like Battle Circuit more.

[@boghogSTG]

@@KrieGor27 Yeah I feel like later Capcom bmups went the route of run n guns and started turning into glorified boss rushes tbh, where the regular enemies start feeling like filler instead of a threat. Battle Circuit's the worst about that. But hey I guess it even shares that in common with DMC1 : D

[@soratheorangejuicemascot5809]

@@KrieGor27 what do you think about Guardians aka Denji Makai(I hope I got that name right)?

[@KrieGor27]

@@soratheorangejuicemascot5809 I like the moveset of this game. It's very generous. The roster as well. It's the first game to take inspiration from AvP. You can tell by the bountiful juggling combos, the overall layout, but also some moves are directly inspired, like how Kurokishi can chain a jumping down sword attack into an aerial grab (it's a lot easier to perform in this game as well). Speaking of Kurokishi, it's a great competitor for most overused character in the Open BOR scene. She is notably in Night Slasher X and in Street of Rage Z. My main grip with Guardians is how the game revolves mostly around hit and run tactics. So you have the same mobility as in SOR3 (including the side dodges) and some attacks that sport both great mobility and nice hitbox. And an auto regarge special. Basically, you don't want to remain in the middle of the screen, you want to go left to right, right to left, hit, run, rinse, repeat. It's not as well thought as like Batman Returns, SOR2, Final Fight... which are more my kind of beat'em up. If you like playing stylishly and crazy combos, it's a lot of fun though. It's Streets of Rage 3 X Alien vs. Predator. I would put it in my top 30 but I don't find the game as enjoyable as the BTU more centered around their enemies than their characters. If you enjoy Guardians, a superior game to me would be the recent and excellent Final Vendetta. Same freedom, but better balanced.

[@InFern0L]

When to expect part 3? Really liked your discussions with Kriegor, Boghog, Juan Man aboout Beat’em up genre!

[@grodycoyote]

Happily surprised to see Violent Storm, Wade’s uppercut and sweep attack feel like butter. Also that OST lol

[@TheElectricUnderground]

My fav is how massive those sprites are!! It does give the game a lot of crunch and momentum

[@tournaline3448]

That was an exceptional presentation from a very impressive guest. Was great to see some of the Konami golden-age games featured. Very honest critique of Guardian Heroes too. This is hands-down the best gaming channel on KZbin. 10/10 again!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Thank you very much my dude! Putting it together took a ton of editing and gathering footage :-)

[@LittleBigKid707b]

Kriegor is the type of guy that I wouldn't mind paying for his drinks all night just so I can hear him talking about the genre and soaking it all up. I'm surprised though that he doesn't like Guardian Heroes. Yea, it's different, but in a good way. At least for me. Thanks for coming through on part two Mark. I thought you forgot about it, because I actually did.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yes I learned so much talking to him about the genre! This info is not stuff you often come across

[@iconoclast575]

Funny, I was just wondering when part two was coming. I'm kinda surprised that I have a lot of the same opinions as Kriegor, especially when it comes to disliking RPG influence, and preferring overall balance instead of more freedom in the mechanics. That always seemed like the minority stance to me since the games that really emphasize those things are so popular. Great video though, looking forward to the next part. (I agree about the hit and run problem in Fight'n Rage btw)

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I m really glad you are enjoying the series! Yes Kriegor and bog are rubbing off on me a bit where I am appreciating more balanced design than before. For a long time my preference was for fast and unrestricted movesets. I think grinding out hours and hours of batman returns helped open my mind more to position and throw based beat em ups as well. Part 3 is going to be WILD ha, as we get into the 3d era and go over where this whole "character action" term came from.

[@TheSamuraiGoomba]

@@TheElectricUnderground My feeling on the whole "character action" term is I don't really care what people call the games as long as they play them! Love my hard action/stylish action/character action/"just action" games.

[@stephenhutchison676]

Kriegor: Zis is ze first game where ze player can move and attack at ze same time. Mark (as if someone just described the discovery of the atom to him): That's HUGE. Great video! ;-)

[@TheElectricUnderground]

It is huge ha, yeah I nerd out over game mechanics

[@zhengistasbolatov8480]

I guess we aren't ready for part 3 yet...

[@HollowRick]

But our kid's are gonna love it

[@rahndail3863]

Man just getting around to watching this, Kriegor is a beast! Absolutely love dudes that have a deep interest in a genre and can plot all the innovations over time. Stoked for part 3 🤘

[@cavbaron3634]

As a kid growing up in America, we had the original AVP on snes. We loved that game ! As an adult, after finding this channel, I've been playing the arcade AVP. I'll NEVER play the snes version again haha

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yes once you go arcade there is no turning back my friend! The good news though is that if your SNES is lonely you can fire up some batman returns on it :-)

[@deltatango-six7941]

I love AvP, but I have to say my favorite Beat em up is probably Ninja Baseball Bat Man.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh yeah that s an awesome one!

[@ScanlineCity]

So happy to hear you covering some beat ‘em ups. Streets of Rage was my childhood golden goose

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yes I love the genre! My next beat em up vid will be a really fun one too I think

[@soulhammer]

This is great content, thank you! I'm a big Beat Em Up fan and its my comfort genre. Every time I see any content related to it nowadays its either some braindead switch focused channel talking about nostalgia/pixel art and "remember this?!?!" or a braindead journalist take of how the genre is simple and dead for a reason etc. etc. It's very refreshing to have such a deep analysis into what makes the genre great, its standout titles an depth. Keep it up!

[@incognita112]

Been waiting for this one for a while, thanks mark and kriegor!!!!!!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yes it took a good amount of time to edit together ha, so much footage

[@viewtifuljoe99]

I'm in japan at the moment and I definitely made some time to play some AVP while at Mikado. I started learning how to play it on the Mister a few months ago and it's really cool once you learn some combos.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh yeah the game has a really big learning curve, but once you get into it, it s really good

[@wcxd]

Zero Team looks incredible, I don't know why I overlooked it so much. Definitely the next BTU I'll try. Thanks for this serie of videos, can't wait for the next part !

[@magicjohnson3121]

Irem were slept upon in the beatem up genre for sure. Ninja Baseball Batman and Under Cover Cops (Japan version) are super solid and now I just heard of Hook. Got to try that out.

[@soratheorangejuicemascot5809]

When I was a kid back then, I mostly see people play Hook on the arcade. I don't get the fuss about it when I was young. Now that I look at this video, it does look interesting though.

[@magicjohnson3121]

I didn’t know it existed

[@7utas23]

I took a shot everytime you guys mentioned Fight'N Rage. I'mfawewydrungrightnow.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah fight n rage goes hard ha, it s just such a great example of a recent well made beat em up

[@auroranamex5886]

I want part 3 tbh

[@AyeYoYoYooo]

Fantastic and much awaited 2nd half !

[@mon11nom]

ooh been looking forward to this since part 1!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yes beat em ups are back!

[@mon11nom]

@@TheElectricUnderground can't wait for part 3 - the gameplay focus is great!

[@bazal68k54]

Excellent and informative retrospective! I'm a big fan of the Mad Stalker style beat em ups but it was good to hear a critical perspective on it. Especially compared to all the games discussed up to that point. They do suffer from omptimum strat fatigue. Panzer Bandit is one of the best takes on that style. Changing iFrames for clash frames does solve the optimum move problem (To an extent, as it's rock paper scissors unless you know the frame data).

[@ronnygranados2433]

cant wait for the god hand critique

[@TheElectricUnderground]

It s gonna be a fun time, that game is wild

[@ronnygranados2433]

@@TheElectricUnderground one of my personal & greatest ever

[@jonathanlisowski5618]

One word... "YES!"

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Agreed! 😊

[@coreymark3945]

I've never really been all that interested in beat em ups before, but this series has really inspired me to make an effort to get into them! What would you recommend as a good first game to dive into for a newbie?

[@boghogSTG]

Ninja Warriors Once Again, Fight N Rage, Streets of Rage 4 or Final Vendetta are all very good starting points, just pick which ever looks cool to you, really can't go wrong. If you want to get into arcade bmups then Punisher, Knights of the Round and Cadillacs & Dinosaurs are good choices since they're not too hard & their bosses don't feel like knowledge checks. There's also console ones like Batman Returns SNES, Final Fight 3, Streets of Rage 2, etc. that tend to offer smoother difficulty progressions.

[@coreymark3945]

​@@boghogSTG Thank you for the recommendations! I was mostly thinking of arcade games, but I'm not too picky. I did buy Fight'N Rage, but I'm afraid it'll be really hard to go back to older beat em ups after playing that, from how highly Mark speaks of it 😅Might check out Knights of the Round as a first step... Thanks again!

[@boghogSTG]

​@@coreymark3945 I wouldn't say so cuz I got a FnR 1cc before any arcade 1cc's and it didn't make me enjoy arcade ones less. But it does come down to how tolerant of jank you are. Arcade beat em ups tend to have higher highs and lower lows than FnR and most other newer beat em ups IMO. Knights of the Round is a great choice though

[@magicjohnson3121]

The first Streets of Rage is good for fundamentals in crowd control/keeping offs and reading your enemies and some basic combos to maximise damage.

[@samuelrainville9219]

Wow! Sublime and informative!

[@soratheorangejuicemascot5809]

Just another question about character action here..... Why do we see less character action games like Ninja Gaiden series that focuses on level design over games that are all about combo like Bayonetta and DMC or games that are focused on gimmick like NieR Automata(yeah take that as a grain of salt. Even the magical story telling is considered a big gimmick in my book).

[@magicjohnson3121]

It’s probably because they were busy copying Hideki Kamiyas formula until NG2 or it’s harder to keep things from being repetitive if it’s just focused on combat.

[@soratheorangejuicemascot5809]

@@magicjohnson3121 when I think about the latter you mention, I do think that might be the answer. I guess it really ain't easy to make a game focused on level design.

[@Paul_Allens_Profile]

> Level design in NG The interconnected world in NG04/B (Σ started to streamline this) was definitely great aspect remeniscent of classic RE, but hardly a focus, even if it played very well into structure of the game. NG2 droped it and went full action. > Games that are all about combo Combo MAD mindset where people look for various ways to juggle potato sacks. We don't see many action games focused on efficiency and economy of movement nowdays, because of it. People expect every other action games to be like DMC that it boogles their mind how agressive enemies in NG are or that it doesn't have manual lock-on. In general, it's result of very narrow view of what action game is - action games don't even have to have melee-based combat to be one, so tunnel-vision effectively impoverished genre. >gimmicks A way to appeal to casuals.

[@BboySquidfoot]

I actually like the lane system in guardian heroes. And I like how phantom breaker tries to incorporate button commands despite being semi mashy. The lane switch definetly adds a type of strategy in terms of evading attacks. And i do like having options to jump and crouch like in 2d fighters for setting up DPs and crossups. Helps create a flow of combat almost like in batman arkham games... If you even like those.

[@hooksnfangs6006]

YEAH! HOOK gets a mention! Such a movie accurate game 😂

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I wish the movie was more like the game lol

[@KrieGor27]

One of the best beat'em up ever made!

[@kagemara277]

A quick question-what do you think about the new Double Dragon Collection? Is it gonna be better than Cowabanga collection overall?

[@magicjohnson3121]

I hated how Streets of Rage 4 ignored mechanics from Streets of Rage 3. I loved the running, rolling and the opportunity to do a Suicide move without taking damage. I also love Final Fight 3. I loved all its additions like command inputs, supers, running, unique grabbing moves from different sides and the multiple pathways. I will be very disappointed if the rumoured Final Fight remake will ignore all those things but just rely on nostalgia.

[@PauloCesar-oz6dy]

I finished SoR 1 like 30 times and never knew you could deflect Mr.X bullets with your punches hahahah

[@pqodbenliah]

Fantastic, great series here!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Thank you so much nameless!

[@trev1976]

Really enjoying these , thanks

[@PedroFerreira-sx2gd]

Great video as always. Very complete. In my trens i was a big fan of beat em Ups. Nowadays i like few (but i play them a lot) because most of them are repetitive. Capcom was the King in the genre. The 2 big highlights of this video are avp and Shadow Over mystara. They are quite advanced for the time. Still love avp. It is fast, Frantic with a big number of moves.it hás many " popcorn" enemyes , combos and strategy. I could never get INTO Shadow mystara altough i admire the ideas that bring to the table.Too much complexity, tricks, many buttons. Hate to cycle between material in the Middle of the fight. 1st boss Also does not Help (it is beatable, but hard for 1st boss). Having to memorize, what itens to use and when,and having to buy stuff. All of this are against my tastes in beat em ups , that must bé Simple, fast and not cerebral

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah the recent trends in beat em ups has been too focused on rpg mechanics and stuff, rather than enemy grouping and fundimentals

[@zchen358]

knights of valor and oriental legend mentions, love me some IGS beat 'em ups. I wonder if Dungeon Fighter Online will get a mention in the next part...

[@Tchiko.]

The Ninja Warriors Again is the Final Fight of Kung-fu Master B| I wonder if there will be Zero Team 2000 in the next video, one of my all time favorite.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh that s in the video I think! It s by violent storm

[@Tchiko.]

@@TheElectricUnderground oh cool I didn’t see it was with Violent Storm.

[@perlichtman1562]

Great stuff! As far as Guardian Heroes, the moment to moments gameplay is not my cup of tea - but I thought they did a great job with the branching paths and upgradable stats and the storytelling was at least better than Radiant Silver Gun. Would have loved to hear you guys talk about the SNES Ninja Warriors version and the later Ninja Saviors. The SNES version was already such a big improvement over the arcade game - although a lot of people misssed the theme from the original game. In my opinion, Tengo Project has made some of the best remakes of all time - and Ninja Saviors is top of the list in terms of doing no harm to the original and being better than both the SNES and arcade game in every way (while including all the music from both, etc.) Perhaps in a future video?

[@slimynaut]

I should get into beatemups I dont really know much about them, I dont really know what makes a good one. Lately Ive been playing some and Im starting to see their strategy elements.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I am going to make a video about how to play them soon!

[@slimynaut]

@@TheElectricUnderground Awesome Im looking forwards to that for sure.

[@miwa_ArcadeGaming]

Did part 3 ever come out?

[@DancesRainyStreets]

Not a true beat 'em up, but Beyond Oasis/The Story of Thor on Sega Genesis does play a lot like one. It could be called a Zelda clone, but then plays more like Streets Of Rage/ Golden Axe. The only thing it really misses is the ability to attack diagonally, and some of the music and sound fx aren't so great. It's in the same vein as Light Bringer, only with a much stronger emphasis on adventuring. I also do not like too many RPG elements in beat 'em ups/hack 'n slash, because i like to have a full move set from the beginning of the game. Beat 'em ups should always be more about player skill, not stats, coins or items. I would definitely like to see a traditional 2D sprite-based beat 'em up/hack 'n slash that combines games like Beyond Oasis and Light Bringer with Golden Axe and Knights of the Round, and maybe Sengoku 2. Light on RPG mechanics, but with great world building, like with a few towns and starting area's that are (more) safe, to very hostile places and dungeons you can only enter and survive if you've learned to play the game well enough, and maybe gained some better armor (like in Knights of the Round) and weapons (like in Beyond Oasis, only without them breaking). So, instead of grinding for stats, you can practice your skills somewhere in a town or nearby, or find a simple quest to do, like helping a town to get rid of some bad guys/monsters, just to get the controls down, and maybe find some items. Then, explore at free will and try save the land/world. Also, an interactive environment would be a nice bonus, like being able to smash through doors and windows for example. It's a game i would like to make myself, just as i would like to make a new Road Rash type of game, but that doesn't seem very likely to happen at this moment.

[@magicjohnson3121]

Sounds like a cool idea. Beyond Oasis is awesome because it’s mostly focused on combat and not figuring out where the he’ll you should go.

[@soratheorangejuicemascot5809]

Do you think its a good idea to add inertia in beat em up? I want a useful inertia like in fighting games. Inertia being used for dash cancel input buffers something like that.

[@dmw77]

For a thorough answer to your great question, be sure to check out Mark's excellent review of Shredder's Revenge. Short answer: no. Long answer: hell no.

[@soratheorangejuicemascot5809]

@@dmw77 that shredder's revenge comment section is burning hot.

[@KrieGor27]

Axel's kara cancel in SOR4 is very fun to use and abuse.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

No!! Please no inertia my friends!

[@soratheorangejuicemascot5809]

@@KrieGor27 I am not too familiar with the term "kara cancel" since I don't hear it much on blazblue or guilty gear but it sounds cool that cancelling is possible on SoR4.

[@magicjohnson3121]

Just recently beat Viewtiful Joe. Will you go over that one? Really fun game. Cool time manipulation mechanics.I’m currently playing God Hand lots of fun and a unique take on the beatem up genre though after this game Hideki Kamiya games all of the sudden had a crap ton of moves to unlock. Shinji Mikami was his mentor so I don’t think it’s a coincidence. The game is a crap ton of fun but I always prefer having a limited set of moves from the start to finish of a game.

[@KrieGor27]

We have talked about both of those games. They will be in part 3.

[@123mathtutorabc4]

After watching this video, I really, really want to play a racing game, anything with GT in the title.

[@ecobayguesthouse5971]

Is Rastan a beat em up or a platformer?

[@lazorsbear7068]

I think it's an action platformer

[@room.beer.controller3032]

top tier stuff

[@dankhill6851]

When you go over Fight'n Rage please go in depth on the Jiggle Physics, I feel this is an important concept in video games, as it keeps the viewer paying attention. Also please go over the best Jiggle Physics in the industry so far.

[@Mingodough]

Another HOOD classic

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Hell yeah! 🎉

[@MundusLives]

You seriously need to consider adding subtitles to these two videos. Your guest is very knowledgeable, but his accent his weird and I can't make out half of the words he's saying. This is an old video but considering that there is no other video like that in YT (not that I know of and certainly not that detailed) and the fact that your channel grows day by day, more and more people will come across that video during the next few weeks or months and most will overlook it due to its duration and the difficulty of understanding your guest.

[@nobodytonobodysbusiness]

Almost all the Capcom fighters give you meter for whiffs. It is a staple system mechanic and it is not without some risk.

[@magicjohnson3121]

I wish I could understand what this guy is saying

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Ha I'm impressed he can speak two languages, God knows I can't speak any other language at all

[@magicjohnson3121]

No Battletoads? I know you hate it but it’s Still one of the bigger beatem up titles.

[@KrieGor27]

We talked about it a bit. In the end, that tiny part was cut out. Our discussion was all about the genre evolution, and not really the big IPs, so no Sengoku, no Rushing Beats, no Battletoads...

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I m not sure what battle toads did special though, it s just a bunch of game genres stapled together ha

[@magicjohnson3121]

Stapling different genres is it’s speciality. Not sure if other beatem ups had done it before.

[@KrieGor27]

@@magicjohnson3121 Yes. It came after Alien Storm.

[@crunchsixfoe]

Too bad no Cadillacs & Dinosaurs and Sailor Moon (AC). Understandable as both are not revolutionary in the genre in the least, just 2 of the most polished and fun.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh don't you worry sailor moon is getting it s own vid, I love that game

[@drifter4training]

Wish Capcom re release dungeons and dragons collection for switch, other consoles and PC.. 😢 still hoping the same for sega and others to release power Stone series, dynamite deka series and zombie revenge as well...

[@magicjohnson3121]

Sega would rather release Genesis titles or early 80’s arcade titles. I’ve always wanted to play Planet Harriers or that 3D beatem up I think it’s called Spikers Charged or something.

[@drifter4training]

@@magicjohnson3121 u meant spike out series?

[@LamestLameOK]

You can still get the collection on PC.

[@dingo535]

Leave Denjin Ryu alone! ; )

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Never ha. I wouldn't mind it so much if the stupid whiff moves to charge super exploit didn't exist

[@magicjohnson3121]

As i’ve said before I don’t care about balance as long as the game is fun. Of course I don’t mean if the game is unbalanced it’s fun I mean there can be exceptions.

[@BBrecht]

No Sengoku :( :( :(

[@TheOldskool2009]

Sorry I can’t agree with the assessment of Guardian Heroes , you don’t just spam the buttons on this game, this game is so legendary and Technically sound it’s my favorite beat em up of all time ! Mixing RPG elements leveling up with Ninjas 🥷, A Warrior , a Magician and a Golden Warrior come on guys !!! And the music 🎼 It’s Treasure Games at its highest peak!!!