The Horror of the Cross without Christianity with Historian Tom Holland

[@liap1293]

Thank you, Jesus, for Your willingness to submit Yourself to the horrors of the cross.

[@Michael-tz7tj]

Christianity changes everything.

[@jaredross57]

Jesus changed everything.

[@ji8044]

Judaism changed everything, specifically Mosaic Law. The story of Moses and the Exodus from Egypt is the beginning of covenant theology, the first time ever in Western thought.

[@heyheythrowaway]

for the worse

[@Revivalism23]

​@@heyheythrowaway go cope and seethe.

[@Revivalism23]

​@@heyheythrowaway it's worse for you.

[@bcatcool]

What a monolith of historical understanding and oratory explanation.... and he is English! Thank God for you Tom. I pray for your life to know Him personally.

[@Susieq26754]

Some people want to keep Jesus on that cross. He isn't on that cross, he isn't a baby anymore either. He is sitting at the right hand of his Father. His promises are true. His return will be way different than his earthly ministry, before he was sacraficed. Be prepared spiritually. Seek and you shall find. This isn't about religion and it isn't about being a good person. It is like looking in a mirror at yourself and admitting you are a sinner. Humility isn't for the proud or strong. It's for those who admit they are weak. Because through weakness, He is strong. I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.

[@lostat400]

Our goodness and strength of character comes through Jesus, and what he, and his sacrifice, means to us, and provide us with.

[@PC-vg8vn]

actually it is also about being a good person. Too many Christians emphasize grace with little reference to behaviour. Yet Jesus spoke time and again about behaviour.

[@jberrocalucf]

People remember Yeshua on the cross because that was his highest point .

[@checko44]

@@PC-vg8vn I'm not saying behavior is unimportant, but I don't think Susie was either. "Be prepared spiritually" she said. Most of the people in this world believe themselves to be a good person. As Christians, we are to be holy, as He is holy. We cannot accomplish that in our strength.

[@lannyheinlen7022]

Jesus scandalizes our lives by showing that only his death can deliver us from our sins. The cross shows us that no matter how good we try to live our lives, we can never be good enough to be sin-free or justified on our own.

[@ji8044]

Judaism has no concept of original sin or the idea of a Savior, and whatever else he may or not may not have been Jesus was a most excellent Jew.

[@Chevalierjacquesarthur]

And isnt that so amazing?!

[@tonygoodkind7858]

No, it doesn't do that. we don't have reasonable evidence of any of the supernatural stuff in the Bible (including the core supernatural claim: that a god exists). So it's a lot like a book claiming Lincoln's death alleviated our Amerisins. Yeah, if a person believes this Ameri-Bible's claims without reasonable evidence, clearly they're going to have the opinion that Lincoln's death "scandalizes our lives" by showing only Lincolns death could've alleviated Amerisins. But the claim sits on no foundation -- it's not true, and so that's why we can't find reasonable evidence of Amerisins or Lincolns death having anything to do with it. Similarly, you can't show any reasonable evidence of the Bible's supernatural claims.

[@halo_1232]

Which is true, you or anybody else will never be sin free. Nobody is perfect. Our lives were and are more scandalous without Jesus. He shows us that no matter how wicked humanity is it is a maxim to love your neighbor as we love ourselves.

[@tonygoodkind7858]

That's simply nonsense. We don't have reasonable evidence of the supernatural claims of the Bible. So the only "scandal" to it is that it appears to be a falsehood actively misleading millions.

[@lowellhuesers5366]

Interesting that in the West, Christianity emphasized the suffering on the Cross, while Eastern Orthodox emphasizes the Resurrection. Orthodox see things very differently.

[@odinswolf]

Brilliant discussion gentlemen! Also, Tom: very powerful story about the Yazidis & crucifixion!

[@Juliet04738]

Can someone explain the comment at 1:29 pls ? 😅 "Not that there's anything wrong... " thank you... (srsly just confused, over my head joke/ ['joke'?] probably I'm sure.. )

[@zilchnilton]

I know it's from Seinfeld but it did really feel out of place. Maybe it's just dry humour

[@petewj]

He has a sense of humour but the delivery was too dry I think and he's a Trump supporter/sympathizer so he might not be joking

[@Juliet04738]

@@petewj 🫨😵‍💫 (!) 😅

[@michaelmccomb2594]

I am not sure if he is joking or if he is suggesting that just because the Nazis were influenced by a people or person, it does not necessarily mean that person was bad or evil. Tom might be thinking of someone like Nieche.

[@MsChitterchat]

@@petewjHe was being facetious; he was joking. Trump doesn’t support Nazis, what nonsense.

[@Miloxiaocelao]

Coincidentally, I just read Apology from Plato, a Socratic conversation, from which I derive an an enhancement of an understanding, among others, where just because it is one’s belief something is so, it does not mean that it is, and the question is worth raising even at the expense of offending the audience and life of one who raises such questions. This is a response to Tom Holland’s comment on that lady challenging him in the audience.

[@cathyfourie3323]

❤ Tom Holland. Wonderful story teller and brilliant on the rest is history podcast❤

[@Fulltilt1973]

How come Dilbert's hosting sacrates in the city?

[@jerryg3524]

Beautiful, thanks for video, loved it

[@DanHowardMtl]

Is the full interview available?

[@MsChitterchat]

Link in the description

[@imnotanalien7839]

A fascinating interview.

[@tariqcollins2609]

8:33 that he was trying to work out the bizarreness of the triumph of the Cross - Philippians 3:10 - that i may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the participation of His sufferings even unto His death....

[@ElizabethKautzmann]

@11:22 “Latin Christendom” aka Catholicism 🙏🏼✝️🌹📿🌹

[@MarkJoelBranton]

The empty cross is the stronger symbol because we know He's not there. Like the tomb, when he finished His work there, He left it empty...

[@williamoarlock8634]

He was never there outside all-text comics.

[@mystrength5640]

Will continue to Pray for Tom Holland, God Bless him! Many People in The Christian COUNTRY of The U.K.. have Forgotten about God! Less than 7% People attend Church in The Uk!

[@benomj1]

Fantastic interview - would recommend against using Adobe's "Podcast Enhance" on the audio. It quite dramatically changes the tone of the speaker. Tom sounds chipmunk-esque. Other-wise, great stuff!

[@MatthaeusNigellus]

Holland is a better theologian than many Christians.

[@venessapaullus4405]

Watch this series ***Jesus the Game Changer*** thank you Rick and Tom for your dedication and leadership and LOVE for JESUS and CHRISTIANITY ❤❤❤

[@venessapaullus4405]

***Eric and Tom***

[@nozrep]

so is Holland a Christian again? I mean it’s important yah but it’s not, for me, necessarily relevant to whether or not I’m a huge fan of him and Dominic’s absolutely fantastic podcast. The recent Henry IV Henry V podcasts they are doing have inspired me to watch the Shakespeare play!

[@simonhattrell5321]

I cannot agree with Tom that for Paul the cross was an embarassment. In his letter to the Galatians he glories in the cross, by which the 'world has been crucified to me and I to the world' (6:14).

[@Miloxiaocelao]

Similarly to the cross, the hammer and sickle sign is also a powerful sign of the suppressed’s victory over the victimizers. The power of symbolism is tantamount.

[@user-if4nx2jn8r]

I like Tom Holland a lot, but this isn't really a great argument. Christians and Christian-sympathetic people will scoff at Atheists saying "religion is the cause of so many wars and atrocities throughout history" but if your argument is that Christianity somehow moderated that brutality and bloodlust of the classical world, all the examples of times in which it utterly failed to actually do that, and sometimes was actually used as justification for brutality, slavery, and so on, does undermine the argument about the fundamental goodness of Christianity as a moral and ethical force.

[@naysayer1238]

? Moderation is not the same as abolition. And it doesn't mean anything that some people used it as an excuse to do what they wanted.

[@andrewjohnson8232]

You've misinterpreted what is being said. The failure of Christianity you apppeal to is itself a Christian assumption. The point Holland is making is that before Christianity, no one would have seen them as secular failures. Things like universal human rights are historically unimaginzble without Christianity.

[@johnleney9541]

I just watched a "Rest is History" episode in which Tom explained that Charlemagne attempted to propagate Christianity by beheading 4500 people who said they didn't want to be Christians.

[@waynemcauliffe-fv5yf]

Atheist who is happy to live in a Christian society over other religions

[@UrsulaPainter]

Friedrich Nietzsche is a terrible thinker who helped to destroy what was left of goodness and truth in Germanic life and culture.

[@jl453k2]

I don’t think it’s Nietzsche that started the problem. I think he was just articulating things that were already swimming in people’s minds. The problem started before him.

[@robmckay5421]

Tom Holland's book Dominion opens with the crucifixion.

[@freebiebean9986]

What’s up with the hair

[@JD-yx1zi]

These two are definitely not Catholics 😂

[@salvyv]

Actually Tom Holland is highly sympathetic to Catholicism (as is his book Dominion)and I believe his wife is a practicing Catholic.

[@imimpo9316]

Christ changed the world❤

[@Yearlinphillips]

Roman Empire used stakes not crosses.

[@nothinghere1996]

The actual cross of Christ remains hidden. It is another lampstand, like the Menorah.

[@newtonfinn164]

If only the religion of Jesus had changed the world.... Instead, the religion about Jesus merged with it. Yet the former continued to exist within the latter as an intermittently exploding depth charge, the history of its periodic explosions being the focus of Tom Holland's "Dominion." Adherents of the religion about Jesus may think that Holland is bolstering their triumphant faith, but he's actually describing something hidden ominously within it, something which occasionally, yet repeatedly, blows it apart. Or as they prefer to say these days, deconstructs it.

[@stephengrieve]

How are you defining the “religion of” and “religion about”. Jesus made a lot of claims about himself.

[@newtonfinn164]

But not in the synoptics, which the vast majority of NT scholars, Christian and otherwise, believe far better portrays the historical Jesus than does John. "Good master," someone addressed Jesus in the synoptics, only to receive the admonition not to call him good, that quality being reserved, according to Jesus, for God alone. Quite a different self-concept here than in John, where I Am sayings abound, or so these scholars, and this clergyman, believe.

[@PC-vg8vn]

@@newtonfinn164 you misunderstand what Jesus was implying, as many do. The rich man obviously viewed Jesus as just a man, hence why he calls him 'teacher'. Jesus then told him that humanity was not 'good', only God is. Youre actually putting words into his mouth by arguing he was saying 'Im not good'. His response also shows that men or women will not be saved based on their own power. It takes more than that.

[@OmarDenison]

Eastern Orthodoxy never shows Christ suffering. God cannot suffer. He is impassible

[@zilchnilton]

Of course a religion like Islam is not compatible with the concept of a dying god who partakes in the suffering of humanity. On the other hand, the dying & rising god motif was quite a common trope in the ancient world & undoubtedly had an influence on the authors of the Biblical texts. The Hindu equivalent, albeit from a metaphysical perspective would be Purusha, the 'first begotten' Logos & primordial sacrifice who descends as flesh & goes on to 'fill all things' as Paul said about Christ. He is the 'light of the world', & in the Upanishads is described as the 'narrow way' & 'only way to the Father & salvation'. Sound familiar?

[@andrewjohnson8232]

Give exact citations for and examples of what you've claimed.

[@zilchnilton]

@@andrewjohnson8232 from the Vedas?

[@andrewjohnson8232]

@@zilchnilton Dying and rising gods and the specifc quotes on Purusha from any source.

[@zilchnilton]

​@@andrewjohnson8232 I'm not an expert on the more Western sources pertaining to dying & rising gods like Innana & Osiris etc. Good channels for information are Gnostic Informant & Mythvision. Regarding Hinduism though I can give you a few of the many, many passages pertaining to the cosmic Logos (OM): "By this word, by this self, he brought forth this whole universe, -everything that exists..." (Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 1:2:5); “He only is all things that exist or will hereafter exist. He only is eternal. Having known Him, one crosses death. There IS NO OTHER path to salvation.” (Kaivalya Upanishad); "By knowing Him indeed a man surpasses death; No other path is there on which to go." (Svetasvatara Upanishad 3:8); “This, though a triad, is yet one, - the Self (Atman). The Self, though One, is yet a triad. That is the immortal hidden in the real (satya)” (Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 1:6:3); I am light threefold, measurer of the region exhaustless heat am I (Rig Veda); "There the sun shines not, nor the moon, nor stars...All things shine with the shining of this light, This whole universe reflects His radiance!" (Svetasvatara Upanishad --6:14--); “Dividing itself into innumerable parts, It fills all these worlds. (Maitri Upanishad --6:26--); “He is “Eka (loner)” because he creates all beings and travels within them alone without any one realizing where he comes from and where he goes.” (Atharvasiras Upanishad); “There is the Universe's mighty Keeper, who, wise, hath entered into me the simple. The Tree whereon the fine Birds eat the sweetness, where they all rest and procreate their offspring,- Upon its top they say the fig is luscious. None gaineth it who knoweth not the Father.” (Rig Veda 1:164:22); “When born, with might thou hast encompassed them: Father of Gods, and yet their Son wast thou.” (RV 1:69:1); The First-Born (Prajapati) the true Brahman (Brihad. Upanishad 5:4:1); draw thy father near thee, who counts as thine own son, O Child of Power.” (RV 5:3:9); “Son of thyself...” (RV 1:13:2); “He covers the naked and heals all who are sick. The blind man sees; the lame man steps forth....Let those who seek find what they seek: let them receive the treasure....Let him find what was lost before; let him push forward to the man of truth” (Rig Veda 8:68); “The self-effulgent light which illumines the world ever shines. It is indeed the witness of the world, the Self of all, pure in form, the basis of all beings, whose nature is pure consciousness. 13. Not by action (karma), not by (begetting) children, not by anything else, only by knowing Brahman, man attains Brahman.” (Katharudra Upanishad)

[@zilchnilton]

@@andrewjohnson8232 ​ @andrewjohnson8232 I'm not an expert on the more Western sources pertaining to dying & rising gods like Innana & Osiris etc. Good channels for information are Gnostic Informant & Mythvision. Regarding Hinduism though I can give you a few of the many, many passages pertaining to the cosmic Logos (OM): "By this word, by this self, he brought forth this whole universe, -everything that exists..." (Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 1:2:5); “He only is all things that exist or will hereafter exist. He only is eternal. Having known Him, one crosses death. There IS NO OTHER path to salvation.” (Kaivalya Upanishad); "By knowing Him indeed a man surpasses death; No other path is there on which to go." (Svetasvatara Upanishad 3:8); “This, though a triad, is yet one, - the Self (Atman). The Self, though One, is yet a triad. That is the immortal hidden in the real (satya)” (Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 1:6:3); I am light threefold, measurer of the region exhaustless heat am I (Rig Veda); "There the sun shines not, nor the moon, nor stars...All things shine with the shining of this light, This whole universe reflects His radiance!" (Svetasvatara Upanishad --6:14--); “Dividing itself into innumerable parts, It fills all these worlds. (Maitri Upanishad --6:26--); “He is “Eka (loner)” because he creates all beings and travels within them alone without any one realizing where he comes from and where he goes.” (Atharvasiras Upanishad); “There is the Universe's mighty Keeper, who, wise, hath entered into me the simple. The Tree whereon the fine Birds eat the sweetness, where they all rest and procreate their offspring,- Upon its top they say the fig is luscious. None gaineth it who knoweth not the Father.” (Rig Veda 1:164:22); “When born, with might thou hast encompassed them: Father of Gods, and yet their Son wast thou.” (RV 1:69:1); The First-Born (Prajapati) the true Brahman (Brihad. Upanishad 5:4:1); draw thy father near thee, who counts as thine own son, O Child of Power.” (RV 5:3:9); “Son of thyself...” (RV 1:13:2); “He covers the naked and heals all who are sick. The blind man sees; the lame man steps forth....Let those who seek find what they seek: let them receive the treasure....Let him find what was lost before; let him push forward to the man of truth” (Rig Veda 8:68); “The self-effulgent light which illumines the world ever shines. It is indeed the witness of the world, the Self of all, pure in form, the basis of all beings, whose nature is pure consciousness. 13. Not by action (karma), not by (begetting) children, not by anything else, only by knowing Brahman, man attains Brahman.” (Katharudra Upanishad)

[@ready1fire1aim1]

THE WORLD RULER TRIES TO KILL ME And then a voice of the world ruler came to the angels: “I am god and there is no other god but me.” But I laughed joyfully when I examined his conceit. But he went on to say, “Who is the human?” And the entire host of his angels who had seen Adam and his dwelling were laughing at his smallness. And thus did their thought come to be removed outside the majesty of the heavens, away from the human of truth, whose name they saw, since he is in a small dwelling place. They are foolish and senseless in their empty thought, namely, their laughter, and it was contagion for them. The whole greatness of the fatherhood of the spirit was at rest in its places. And I was with him, since I have a thought of a single emanation from the eternal ones and the unknowable ones, undefiled and immeasurable. I placed the small thought in the world, having disturbed them and frightened the whole multitude of the angels and their ruler. And I was visiting them all with fire and flame because of my thought. And everything pertaining to them was brought about because of me. And there came about a disturbance and a fight around the seraphim and cherubim, since their glory will fade, and there was confusion around Adonaios on both sides and around their dwelling, up to the world ruler and the one who said, “Let us seize him.” Others again said, “The plan will certainly not materialize.” For Adonaios knows me because of hope. And I was in the mouths of lions. And as for the plan that they devised about me to release their error and their senselessness, I did not succumb to them as they had planned. And I was not afflicted at all. Those who were there punished me, yet I did not die in reality but in appearance, in order that I not be put to shame by them because these are my kinsfolk. I removed the shame from me, and I did not become fainthearted in the face of what happened to me at their hands. I was about to succumb to fear, and I suffered merely according to their sight and thought so that no word might ever be found to speak about them. For my death, which they think happened, happened to them in their error and blindness, since they nailed their man unto their death. Their thoughts did not see me, for they were deaf and blind. But in doing these things, they condemn themselves. Yes, they saw me; they punished me. It was another, their father, who drank the gall and the vinegar; it was not I. They struck me with the reed; it was another, Simon, who bore the cross on his shoulder. It was another upon whom they placed the crown of thorns. But I was rejoicing in the height over all the wealth of the rulers and the offspring of their error, of their empty glory. And I was laughing at their ignorance.

[@felicitytoad]

🎅

[@alexaugustynski3620]

People doing the devil's work tend to pretty universally the same people who readily accuse others of being devil worshippers

[@alexaugustynski3620]

By demonizing others, we create ourselves in the image of demons and become those demons. That is how demons arise, not through the occult but due to the mob gripped by a malevolent cultlike mentality for blood. Happens in every religious confession and nation.

[@Zoomo2697]

"The Devil has little trouble with those who don't believe in him, they are already on his side" Fulton J Sheen

[@ji8044]

@@Zoomo2697 That's an excellent example supporting the original comment.

[@alexaugustynski3620]

@@Zoomo2697 What inspired this is I saw that ISIS called Yazidi's devil worshippers in order to justify atrocities against them. I think this is true cross-culturally.