The Jung of Cog Sci, and the Cog Sci of Jung w/ Anderson Todd - Voices with Vervaeke

Anderson Todd is a cognitive scientist and a practicing Psychotherapist. He also teaches courses at the University of Toronto on Jung.
In this wide-ranging discussion we explore deep connections between Jungian theory and practice and cognitive science theory and practice.
Here is a link to his online lectures: / andersontodd
This is part of my series Voices with Vervaeke: Science, Spirituality, and the Meaning Crisis.
You can support my work on Patreon, with the proceeds going into the research I do at the University of Toronto on the Meaning Crisis and the cultivation of wisdom here: / johnvervaeke

[@dls78731]

When Anderson mentioned that “salt” was the alchemical ingredient for bitterness, it immediately flashed in my mind: “Yes, that is because we taste alchemical concoctions not through our tongue, but through our wounds.”

[@marcusvinicius5200]

where is this from mate?

[@leedufour]

Thanks Anderson and John.

[@johnvervaeke]

Thanks Lee

[@mcscronson]

I love the way Anderson explains things, so wonderful to follow along and experience little whirligigs of imagination sprout forth every so often. Thanks John for hosting and stimulating this discussion.

[@AndersonTodd]

What a delightful turn of phrase, thanks! I'm really pleased people are finding these conversations as entertaining, edifying, and illuminating as John and I do.

[@baroquecat2295]

Loved the lecturers on your channel, hoping to see many more to follow!

[@SuperAlex512]

wow. love John talking to Anderson! Every time the conversation reveals different and very interesting connections and ideas! thanks to both of you!

[@brentonbrenton9964]

Very nice interview! I'll be paying attention to Anderson Todd.

[@WinnipegKnightlyArts]

It's really great to hear someone bringing in some more of the western esoteric traditions.

[@paddykiernanmusic]

I have such great respect for Verveake's ability to deeply listen to his interlocutors and his genuine enthusiasm for intellectual dialogue.

[@carlt570]

Very thought provoking. 'A direct point of contact with the co-creation'. Love it. Thank you.

[@RensV]

Thank you so much Anderson and John! I just found out Anderson has lectures online too. One more rabbit hole to go down to. I hope to see more talks of you two together or even maybe even doing a series together that would be awesome.

[@socraticsceptic8047]

Glad i missed the live stream for this one ... think i would have splurged out!!

[@socraticsceptic8047]

Amazing new perspectives and points to consider thank you both!

[@OZMus]

Highly disappointed to see this :( esoterica is my bread and butter

[@OZMus]

@@socraticsceptic8047 lol

[@OZMus]

😉

[@socraticsceptic8047]

@@OZMus oh well will have to watch properly soon.. what struck you about this one?

[@KarimaCynthiaClayton]

ON SYNCHRONICITY. “The world is thinking you, and you're thinking the world,” is a great quote demonstrating synchronicity. We are the pearls of Indra's net, omni-directional weaving of lifestreams is par for the course. The minute you think you are special or you get attached to these magical "signs" - they decrease. Someday we'll see the bigger picture: THERE IS NO SUBJECT/OBJECT PROBLEM. We make the compartments and the boxes of frameworks and give it all meaning. We adopt perception from past knowledge, not leaving an empty chair in the circle of elders within us for something fresh. Time for a new vision of the whole; that there is nothing outside of Oneness. Right now, with no further knowledge needed, no further ado, let us celebrate life as magic that needs no proof. Life is AMAZING!

[@tomconx86]

Really enjoyed this discussion. Answered a few questions I had in the back of my mind

[@kasra123]

The genealogy from depth psychology / phenomenology to cog sci is profound and fascinating. Just take the example of Heinz von Foerster. HvF made constant references to Alchemy. As one of the modern fathers of cybernetics and radical constructivism, he derived many of his ideas concerning the mind-body problem such as feedback loops, circular causality, self-referentiality and recursive processes of the nervous system (McCulloch & Pitts, 1943), from alchemical transformation processes and symbols such as the Ouroboros (the snake that devours its own tail) just as Jung did. HvF's first book "Memory. A Quantum-physical Investigation", an interdisciplinary attempt to explain the mind-body problem, was published by Viktor Frankl and reviewed by Schrödinger. HvF was also heavily influenced by Wittgenstein (who was an old Vienna family friend). One of his closest friends, Paul Watzlawick, studied Jungian analytical psychology in Zurich and later developed one of only three approved psychotherapy schools in Germany: systemic therapy. Frankl and Piaget wrote pieces that are published in the collected edition by Smythies and Koestler (1969) "Beyond Reductionism". It's one of the first books that layed out ideas of emergence and complexity. There are very interesting cross-connections between Phenomenologists and Constructivist like Heidegger, Medard Boss, Binswanger, Jung, Frankl, Scheler, Watzlawick, Foerster, Wittgenstein, Bateson, McCulloch, Maturana, Varela, Dreyfus as well as Marvin Minsky who derived many of his ideas from Freud. They didn't necessarily all share the same sentiment (e.g. Jung hated Heidegger and thought of him as a pseudo-intellectual) but they wrestled with the same problems and paved the way for modern 4e cog sci. I guess during that particular time (end of 19th / beginning of the 20th century), there must have been something in that Swiss-Austrian-German alpine air / zeitgeist / collective unconscious.

[@sheilac5319]

Thanks!

[@Tom-jz6st]

Any chances of making a Voices with Vervaeke podcast with these? I really would love listen to these again and again while I walk.

[@stian.t]

Oh, gosh! This was a true delight. Inspirational. Major fan of Jung, and also of the western esoteric tradition, so this hit me straight in the heart. Lovely! I even managed to "get" some of it. ha, ha :-) From the depths of my soul: a heartfelt thanks! PS: Looking forward to the book.

[@ThePathOfEudaimonia]

I feel so ignorant about the "western esoteric tradition". Where to start... Could you give some advice on that?

[@samuelglenn123]

This was a tremendous conversation! I thought Anderson Todd did an excellent job of articulating Jung's ideas about alchemy. In particular I enjoyed Anderson teasing out the idea of the "numinous" experience in Jung through references to synchronous events. Given that synchronous simply means 'together in time' I think it is a similar idea to that of symbol which means 'throwing together'. The synchronous event is a symbol which erupts into our consciousness in a powerful way. Through the synchronous event, or an encounter with the "Self", meaning becomes overwhelmingly salient. More than merely salient I think it is, in this way, experienced as a deep encounter with "reality". This can be profoundly reorienting. It seems psychedelics, lucid dreaming (or "active imagination" in Jung) and symbolic study more broadly all help to birth such an experience of meaning as the "Ego" and "Self" sync into deep levels of alignment. I am very interested in reading the book! Also I am interested in hearing more about the connections with cognitive science. Thank you both for engaging in this wonderful discussion and sharing it.

[@sheilac5319]

Very helpful from a learner's perspective; many thanks. I really appreciate your pauses to frame the discussion and contextualize operative terms and concepts.

[@ErnestoEduardoDobarganes]

I have always been fascinated about how Alchemy had so many points of contact with advanced science and knowledge that was not available until centuries later.

[@samuelglenn123]

Yes the alchemists were intuiting something deep.

[@ransetruman2984]

EXCELLENT

[@pteronine9]

Perhaps alchemy might serve us as a reminder to our future selves that what we think of as cutting edge ideas and science, may someday become vulnerable to new insight, knowledge and wisdom. Thanks to both of you, John and Anderson!

[@Philibuster92]

That was the best insight and explanation of synchronicity that I’ve ever heard. It probably won’t be superseded for a very long time and I think that reinterpretation is correct.

[@RobRandolph80]

I'm the nerd that spotted the Delta Green RPG sourcebook on Anderson's bookshelf.

[@AndersonTodd]

Good catch. That one is actually half pulled out because it's out of place; there's a full 6'x6' shelf full on the other side of the room. This will be a substantial section of the book, and likely some upcoming videos, but: I've been playing 37 years, and roleplaying is also alchemy (or rather, can form a projective substrate with unique virtues).

[@christopherhamilton3621]

That clarified synchronicity for me: thanks to you both! The implication of synchronicity simply being the co-incidence of instantiation & realization of connectedness is beautiful. (This has bothered me for over 30 years. 😏)

[@TwinAquarius484]

Omg Anderson, you've been thinking about this for a while. I love it. I have come to some of the same conclusions through a slightly different frame of thinking and being.

[@kimfreeborn]

Gregory Bateson made a connection between mind and nature. Like Plato Mind and Intelligence are immanent in nature. Plato's Ideos is the evolutionary unit. The gnostic opposites are essentially connected to each other and separate. The transcendent Self opens the way to an essential self understanding that transcends the ego and its opposites and yet affirms them as cyclical phenomena. Ousia is the underlying feedback system that informs the minds self knowing.

[@kasra123]

That is very interesting. Can you point out to the reference of Bateson's? I'd love to read up on that.

[@ManiSaintVictor]

The part around the 45:00 mark makes me think of a combination of internal family systems and hypnotic suggestion work

[@JohnRiver490]

17:40 Jung Case Study, Subjectivity and Unis Mundus

[@changeeternal7868]

Many thanks for sharing 🙏🏻❤️

[@emiliodauvin5059]

Great discussion, really cool on synchronicity

[@phoenixfreewalkeroreilly2212]

Brilliant , thank you both , you have mapped...from a parnell universe, the journey I have been on through trauma in childhood to this moment of re cog nation. And now, chop wood...fetch 💧, blessings 🙏

[@JiminiCrikkit]

Excellent stuff. I've had a passing fascination with the Alchemical Occult world ever since a good friend introduced me to The Art of Memory by Frances A Yates some 20 years ago, so seeing this linking into/through Cognitive Science and finding their common essence and symbolic threads through both is ... making a lot of sense to me! Thank you!

[@polymathpark]

Ya'll need to talk to Jeff Hawkins about his thousand brains theory, much of what you're discussing here correlates well. Shmactenberger as well. Also Thompson's "mind in life" was a fantastic read, very in depth.

[@gunterappoldt3037]

Only few people seem to be interested in doing phenomenology in the strict sense, to do "deep phenomenology" which really goes to the "roots", so to say.

[@dls78731]

@Günter Appoldt, I’m finding this to be true, but continuing to check my assumptions against evidence.

[@KarimaCynthiaClayton]

YOU ARE INVITED TO THE WEDDING! We’ve recognized that Consciousness or the Absolute is the fundamental ground of being, and energy and matter are a derivative of consciousness. Since we will never define the placeless place, the timeless time, the Tao forever unspeakable, alchemy indeed forges the path to soul realization, the wedding of Unus Mundus to its energetic aspect - Anima Mundi. The principle animating the universe, the breath of life, the fire of spirit, is the Soul of the World. She invites us through the portal of initiation, to stand in the light of the soul.

[@s.h5243]

It seems this video and some of your other ones are unlisted. You might want to get that fixed, as I'm sure other people want to watch it.

[@kasra123]

I've noticed that the alchemical idea of anagogical transformation resembles chemical transformations and emergences of new physical structures in the way Prigogine postulated them in his theory of dissipative structures. The similarity to self-organizing principles is remarkable.

[@PrometheusMonk]

Consciousness is the great mystery. "In the sphere I am everywhere the centre, as she, the circumference, is nowhere found. Yet she shall be known & I never" "Also reason is a lie; for there is factor infinite & unknown; & all their words are skew-wise." -Liber Al vel Legis II:3, II:4 and II: 32

[@awaking_]

how can i reach defused mode very fast so as i can go back and study

[@frankieritter9133]

I am in the COG!

[@82472tclt]

I like this particular western phenomenology method being point to here. Right on the $$$

[@pteronine9]

Not sure, Anderson, if you're familiar with James Hillman's book, Alchemical Psychology, but I think it would be a useful text for bridging the works of the old alchemists with a psychological approach that is especially grounded in human experience through the relationship between language, particularly its metaphorical nature, and bodily senses and perception for making sense of ourselves and the world. Here's a link to Hillman's lecture on the subject: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jH_OgGuEhc2BrMU

[@OZMus]

This is my bread and butter *loooooooves it* alchemy is beautiful and performed in numerous other "magickal" practices. I've come to find it all relative to the processes of mind, body, and spirit as reflective of earth and universe (microcosm, macrocosm). A homunculus is interesting because in this sense it's being described as a mini-mind in a way. I'd compare it to a Meta of artificial intelligence (though not in the computational way). A homunculus in alchemy can also be a shadow or faux reflection of self.

[@OZMus]

Alchemy is definitely relative to phenomenology and to cognitive science. **I'm a level 3 introspector.**

[@OZMus]

Should be noted in Jungian psychology that the shadow self, also anima/animus, is often that piece which is both fought against and should be integrated into the self once fully known. So, a homunculus in this way could be formed based on the aspects you might negate but how you rectify that is through the alchemy of shadow work which integrates that homunculus of otherwise negated aspects. Tl:dr, don't delete the shit you don't like about yourself, know thyself and recognize those parts of yourself to better understand. Anderson Todd has a new fan, absolutely.

[@jfreeman2927]

is gender linked to this version of polarity?

[@kjekelle96]

How do you read/learn faster & better??? :)

[@notmyrealpseudonym6702]

Practice. Iterative practice - doing - then review post practice to detect where and how you went off track . Read a line. Shut your eyes and see if you can repeat it back verbatim. Open eyes and check and do again and again. Once able to consistently do one line, do another one line. Once consistently able to do one lines ... work on two lines. Or more words per line. So you progressively co-relate and attune vision/sense with visualisation/perception (memory or re-membering of vision sense). If you've read this comment, shut your eyes and see how well you can repeat all of the above. The difference between see/read and look/read is memory and recall aspects. That's how I do it, it's 'a way' not 'the way'. There will be heaps of other ways. JV talks about it in (i think) 'insight episode 9 of AfTMC' with regards to letters and words and uses a 'THE CHT' (the cat but the written A looks like an H as the 2 sides don't quite meet).

[@kjekelle96]

@@notmyrealpseudonym6702 Have you been practicing this and do you notice you're improving at short- and long-term remembering what you've read (e.g. only once)?

[@lawrencedavid9728]

1:11:57 "an enacted symbolic apprehension of subjectivity" is quite the linguistic Hopf fibration but I guess it fits Pauli's sketch of the phenomena in letters exchanged with Jung.

[@AndersonTodd]

Cool: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hopf_fibration. I've been fascinated for many years by sphere eversion, which is obviously different, but visually reminiscent. However, actually, we meant "transjectivity" - insofar as it gets that bridging Janus quality, very consistent with Pauli/Jung.

[@lawrencedavid9728]

@@AndersonTodd My mistake, John had it correct. I likely heard "subjectivity" as I instantly recalled a 1971 paper by Prof.Nancy Munn "Transformation of Subjects into Objects in Walbiri and. Pitjantjatjara Myth." Is a Freudian "ear" a thing !? Thanks so much for the sphere eversion reference. It is very helpful to me.

[@OZMus]

Solve Et Coagula~☆⊙°

[@Jacob011]

Having a PhD in cybernetics I'm seriously tempted by cognitive science more and more. 😉

[@colinnewc393]

👍

[@merlepatterson]

Let's just call it: "Anti-Reciprocal Cryptographic Alchemy"

[@merlepatterson]

...or better yet "Neoalchemy"

[@stian.t]

Ehm.. didn't Jung use the (paradoxical) word "psychoid" at some point, when writing about synchronisity and the bridging of mind & matter?

[@nickshelbourne4426]

This is the word he uses in Atoms and Archetype, which is a collection of letters between Jung and Wolfgang Pauli (the quantum physicist)

[@stian.t]

@@nickshelbourne4426 thanx