The King James Bible Problem in the Book of Mormon | Ep. 1610 | LDS Discussions Ep. 09

[@larryrichardson8194]

On behalf of the 51% of NeverMo Mormon Stories viewers: This series with LDS Discussions/Mike is amazing. Keep 'em coming!

[@benjamingardea4511]

The irony of the BoM containing errors of an inferior translation of the Bible while also claiming to correct the mistranslation of the Bible and being the most correct book on earth is mind-blowing and hilarious!!!

[@protochris]

Thats why they started the Joseph Smith Translation.

[@garybehunin3071]

None of Joseph smiths prophecy’s have never came true for instance he prophesied that a temple would be built in Missouri where they stayed within there generation it has yet to be built and is a plot of nothing but dirt

[@Scott-t2p]

There are no errors in the King James

[@garybehunin3071]

@@Scott-t2p it’s a coping mechanism

[@Scott-t2p]

@@garybehunin3071 the book of Mormon was mostly written in Smith's own words nothing wrong about that

[@MarkWhatcott]

Mike has definitely settled into these episodes. It’s been cool to watch him feel it out and I look forward to these episodes every week now.

[@shches8480]

@LDS Discussions This series is fantastic, Mike! I really appreciate your scholarship and insights!

[@jamestrek2570]

@LDSDiscussions Mike is there anyway you can post your slides?? I find myself taking snapshots of these things. It would be nice to be able to get a copy of the slides. Thanks.

[@deannapowell7237]

I love this series. I started from the beginning. I have never been a Mormon, but I was born I to a strict Evangelical Christian family and I'm deconstructing, finding out so much about how the Bible was written, when it was ACTUALLY written, and a bunch of TRUTH that I was never told as I was growing up and fully I doctrinated. If Mike ever wants to do a project and do a video series on each book of the Bible, the myths, fallacies and so forth, I would absolutely LOVE, share with friends and colleagues, support financially, etc. I hope he sees this message. There's so much harm that UN-TRUTH does to people and families. RELIGIOUS INFORMED CONSENT IS SO IMPORTANT!!!

[@iamjustsaying1]

This was another excellent addition to a profoundly important series that I believe should be required listening to every mormon who "knows" the church is true. I sure could have benefitted from having all of this info before joining the church over 40 years ago.

[@Whocaress700]

I think a person needs to be in the mindset to want to listen. I don’t think most lds ppl would sit through 5 min of this

[@iamjustsaying1]

@@Whocaress700True! We are taught NOT to listen to this sort of thing, in fact.

[@sallyostling]

Mike is just so incredibly intelligent. After deconstructing Mormonism, what should he figure out next? Seems like skies the limit!

[@richardholmes5676]

Deconstructing Mormonism?

[@shches8480]

@sallyostling I totally agree. Mike would do so well in research and academic scholarship.

[@missy2244]

I took a deep research dive into ‘Who was King James’? BTW I was Catholic for 62 yrs. I’m now a 70 yr old Asexual Guilt Free Atheist. JSYK: I earned a PHD in Quantum Physics/Science of Consciousness. King James of England was also King James IV of Scotland. His council took 200 yrs to translate the Latin Catholic Bible of the Roman Empire into New English. KJ added 4 letters to the 22 letter Old English language. The most corrupt letter added was ‘J’. The Jeez sound isn’t found in Ancient Greek or Hebrew. KJ added: IKJV. Get it? KJ thought he was the God of the Old Testament as he was an immortal. He was a Scottish Highlander who wanted his own National Protestant Church. Look in the back of an ‘older than 1960’ KJV. Printed in red: Original printing 1611 by The Black Sabbath Church of England. KJ was a sun worshipper. He required all Jewish folk to worship on SUNDAY which represents the first day of the week. ALL translations of the Bible were taken from the original KJV of 1611. The God of the Old Testament is a jealous, vengeful, low class, lying SOB and is certainly NOT the Creator. Creator: ❤ALL IS ONE❤. Everyone has Freewill choice. Namaskar❤Dear❤Ones❤

[@scottbrandon6244]

I find this discussion interesting. The church has recently stated that GAs and academics (such as BYU professors) can cite from other versions of the Bible. Elder Uchtdorf cited from the NIV in a General Conference talk in 2021 and another apostle used the NRSV in a conference talk. I have noticed BYU professors using other versions in papers and talks. This begs the question why is this now being allowed when modern translations have been available for decades. And why is the KJV a problem? Another issue is where does this leave the JST version of the Bible?

[@patricianoel7782]

The Church is trying to distance it self from its bizarre history and lean more to the traditional Christian doctrine. The GAs are “allowed” to quote other versions of the Bible and scholars from other religions. Heck, I’m even wearing a crucifix necklace and not getting grief.🤭

[@danvogel6802]

David Whitmer said his description of the method of translating came from JS. The witnesses gave their statements about the translation independent of one another years later, and therefore were not in collusion. Mike is correct that that the statements about no manuscripts were used was to counter the claim that the Spaulding manuscript was read from behind a curtain, which didn't make sense to those who witnessed the translation. Howe's Mormonism Unvailed contained both Hurlbut's Spaulding affidavits and Charles Anthon's account of his encounter with Harris, who evidently told him about the curtain and spectacles. But this was in February 1828, before translation had begun in earnest. Later, Harris would testify about the head-in-hat method, even before the Spauding theory developed. The Bible was no doubt used--probably in the same manner that he began using in 1830 with the inspired revision. I like Mike's suggestion that JS may have said his eyes were sore as an excuse to use the Bible as an aid in translation.

[@jdarkwind]

Dunno if anyone pointed it out in the live chat, but while "mile" is an English word, miles as a unit of measurement go back to the ancient world, and the word "mile" itself comes from the Latin term *mille passus*, a thousand paces or about 5000 feet. So Romans and Hebrews would have readily understood how far a mile is, not just Americans. And since the Romans didn't invent their units of measurement but borrowed them from the Greeks, who probably borrowed them from Mesopotamians, it's probably a lot older than that.

[@mikecmw8492]

It IS older. You understand the pyramids of giza are at the geometric center of planet earth land mass? The whole purpose of religion is to hide this fact.

[@chubbuck35]

Great episode! These LDS discussions deep dives are so important!

[@knitandcatboodle]

I left about 8 years ago primarily due to mental health issues and not being given the resources that I needed. (Ironically, pray and read your scriptures doesn't fix depression. Weird.) I didn't delve too deeply into the doctrinal side of things and the overall messaging of the church. I just barely felt comfortable "peeking behind the curtain" if you will and so many things are clicking into place. I appreciate that the tone is educational and there's not shame behind your words. It's really helping to validate my feelings and allow me to grieve all the time I lost due to being really involved with the church growing up. Thank you for doing this work! I can't wait to catch up on all these episodes!

[@michaelbruce9197]

Don’t be upset about leaving the nonsense. Be strong

[@aubrey6538]

Really grateful to Jon for asking the seemingly obvious questions but some of that was confusing to me and so I appreciate him asking for further explanation and simplifying. It made it a whole lot easier for me to comprehend and follow. Excellent, excellent video.

[@belalima5779]

Great job as usual. Loving these episodes!

[@brucee8332]

I learned long ago in Baptist Sunday School that Roman soldiers could force Jewish civilians and other subject peoples to go one mile (or equivalent Roman distance) carrying the soldier's equipment, but no farther. For Jesus to suggest two miles was to offer true generous love.

[@JasonP313]

It is pertinent to note, also, that the Bible verses in the BofM match the KJV and not the Joseph Smith Translation. The JST was meant to correct translation errors in the KJV was it not?

[@MrDJBelcher]

This is one of my favorite points 😅

[@satutoivonen9679]

As to what was said in the intro: I switch back and forth between speeds X1, X1,25, X1,5 and X1,75 all the time. I'm new to LDS history so I sometimes need to go slower on topics unique to mormonism. Especially LDS theology is a subject matter that is a difficult for me. Pausing when there's a slide shown and reading it by myself is helpful too. On the other hand I was a history major so when there's talk of principals of historical research or talk about stuff that applies to history of religion in general I can go faster. I highly recommend this speed jumping method, it really makes listening a lot more pleasant.

[@matthewrichards8218]

This is an awesome series. I love learning the history of this kind of stuff.

[@daisybee1439]

Love all of these episodes, they are very interesting and informative!

[@rockytreadway]

Great episode! I am loving this series, thank you so much for doing all that work. This information helps me understand my childhood and my parents so much better. I can't financially support you but I'll add my comments to help with the algorithm!

[@jesse1008]

You guys do a wonderful job !! Extremely fair Analysis of these issues thank you

[@danvogel6802]

Funny, how apologists try to use their apologetic on JS's Bible revision (JST) as an apologetic for the BofM translation. JS tried to pass off his revisions as a translation. The apologists now know this is indefensible and so have attempted to redefine "translation" to mean just the opposite. That's not how JS presented his work on the Bible. In an October 15, 1843, sermon, JS said: “I believe the bible, as it ought to be, as it came from the pen of the original writers.” He then went on to quote from his Bible revision.

[@lilith4924]

This is another fantastic installment from Mike. This whole series is extremely well done.

[@mrmemyselfandi4159]

Thank you John for rewording what Mike is presenting to help us digest things. As much as I love Mike, sometimes he talks so fast and uses so many words that I don't even know if he's saying anything at all. I can't always track with him on what he's trying to say. Maybe it's a cadence/timing thing...tone? Like Up-speak that throws you off. I dunno. I'm not picking on him. I love him...I just can't ever feel like I get my head clearly around what he's trying to say.... beginning middle and end BAM...DONE. Next idea. Kinda feels like trying to take drink from a fire hose. But maybe that's because there's so much info here....and I'm getting older so maybe it's that too. I know he's brilliant and I'm grateful for his efforts so I'd really love to let his points cement in. I have to remind myself to do this too...Take a breath....pace your words. Much Love!

[@danvogel6802]

“With the sanction of David Whitmer, and by his authority, I now state that he does not say that Joseph Smith ever translated in his presence by aid of Urim and Thummim; but by means of one dark colored, opaque stone, called a ‘Seer Stone,’ which was placed in the crown of a hat, into which Joseph put his face, so as to exclude the external light. Then, a spiritual light would shine forth, and parchment would appear before Joseph, upon which was a line of characters from the plates, and under it, the translation in English; at least, so Joseph said.” - J. L. Traughber to Editor, 13 Oct. 1879, Saints’ Herald 26 (15 Nov. 1879): 341.

[@danvogel6802]

Another informative discussion about issues with Joseph Smith's use of the KJV in his dictation of the Book of Mormon. Loose translation is a very poor apologetic and ultimately doesn't work when one examines specific texts. God job.

[@mormonstories]

Thank you @Dan Vogel!

[@emilymerkel4213]

Very late, but my husband and I have discovered this series and are absolutely loving it. We're not Mormon nor have we ever been, but this has forced us (mostly me) to look at my faith a bit harder, to seek answers for my own sake about my church. Thank you for all of this work you all have done, it's truly fantastic and very informative.

[@vocalysemusicworks]

This whole series should be subcategorized and numbered: 1610: LDS Discussions Ep 10 - The King James Bible Problem in the Book of Mormon (for example)...

[@EmmettFlo7]

Love this series! Keep it coming!

[@kentthalman4459]

The fact that the BoM is written in KJV has been a huge problem for many. Awesome session that brings together the problems that it creates into a single place.

[@Scott-t2p]

Joseph wrote it in his own words and copied from the KJV

[@kentthalman4459]

@@Scott-t2p Your assertion directly contradicts witnesses: Emma Smith, Martin Harris, David Whitmer, and Oliver Cowdery (although his story changed after arriving in Ohio). They all state that the words appeared on JS's seerstone while he was looking in a hat, which means they are all claiming a tight translation. From Russell M. Nelson back in 1993: "The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights. [Oliver Cowdery's brother-in-law] David Whitmer wrote: Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man. (David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, 1887, p. 12.)" This quote is from a talk that Pres. Nelson gave back in 1993, but this ordained seer has made this same claim two more times as president of the Church. He even did an interview a few years ago, which is on youtube, making the same claim, demonstrating how JS put his face in a hat while looking at the seerstone. Nelsen also confirms in that video the plates were wrapped up and hidden while JS is "translating."

[@erpthompsonqueen9130]

Thank you. Watching from Alaska.

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

Let me see if I have this straight. (1) According to Mormon beliefs, God (or one of God's angels) was able to transport the physical golden plates from earth to heaven (i.e. the spirit realm) for safekeeping, and that's why the golden plates are nowhere on earth to be seen by the physical eyes of mortal humans...and have not been available for such purpose ever since the angel took them to heaven sometime around 1829. (2) God could provide a word-for-word translation of the Golden Plates (TM) to Joseph Smith through a rock that was bigger than a golf ball but smaller than a croquet ball. (3) God could arrange for the delivery of a magic compass to Lehi's tent, fully manufactured and ready to be operated, so long as Lehi had enough faith juice. (4) God was able to engrave the 10 Commandments on stones using just his pinky finger (or possibly a different finger)...and many other marvelous works and wonders did God do that indeed defy all description and exceed our most fantastical imaginings! (5) But, for some reason, God just couldn't deliver a perfect ready-to-go English translation, in book form, of the Golden Plates to Joseph Smith? What's up with that? Heavy metallic plates can be moved back and forth between heaven and earth by angels, but God had no translators in heaven and no way of printing up a book? God could protect the Golden Plates for millennia with a zap-o-matic invisible security shield, but couldn't have a book translated and printed up in heaven? God could protect his servants from all harm while they stood in the middle of a raging fire, but couldn't publish a book without relying on a failed treasure hunt scammer to do all the translating/writing with a rock? God could part an entire sea in the middle to open up a highway for his people to escape a mighty army, but couldn't drop a fully written book in Joseph Smith's lap? Seems like a missed opportunity to me. Think of how nice it would have been if God had assigned the writing job to angels who had full and perfect command of all languages, and then assigned illustrations, binding and printing work to the angels who were the best artisans in all the heavenly realms. They could have produced a book, all in English, that made all the fantastic books in Harry Potter look like nothing more than cheap dime-store novels. They could have thrown in a bonus edition of the original text in Reformed Egyptian--just to silence all the hate-filled critics. But what good would just one copy of the most exquisitely bound and printed book of scripture ever be...if there was only one? I think the answer is obvious. The hat. Stick the original book from heaven in the hat, sit on it, then turn around and look in the hat. Now there's two copies!! Do it again...again...and again and pretty soon you have thousands of copies. That's what Joseph Smith could have been doing and should have been doing between 1826 and 1829, instead of making stuff up because he couldn't actually get the rock to work properly.

[@mormonstories]

You won the Internet today Team Poseidon.

[@user-bw3fl7fj9w]

@@mormonstories is there a longer podcast of the woman in the video,released a few hours ago today, talking about her reaction to her first LDS Temple experience?? Thanks!

[@capercaillieskye]

This is brilliant 😂 👏 Super excellent point!

[@capercaillieskye]

Really though, if you continue this line of thought, why have a book at all? Couldn't God have just transmitted His Word ™️ directly into the minds of everyone on earth in their own language? 😜

[@JulieSnowstudiojuliesnow3698]

"bonus edition of the original text in Reformed Egyptian" ROFL 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@Jsppydays]

I hope you guys are going to be dissecting the doctrine and covenants as well. Anyway the most excellent program we appreciate your work your time your energy and your documentation of facts. Amazing.

[@The_Other_Ghost]

Oliver, the guy who met John the Baptist and used dowsing rods...

[@pauldouglas5514]

Just a correction. The italics were applied when there were idiom issues translating from GREEK to English - not from Hebrew.

[@cathleenketterman2386]

Really this and the DNA should be enough to convince anyone that there are major hole in the truth claims!

[@philsphan4414]

The KJV also relies on the Textus Receptus, which modern scholars consider inferior to other textual traditions.

[@zemejal]

Loved these series. Mike is amazing. When Nemo joins it's also amazing. I have to admit that when Mike kept saying KJV I kept hearing KGB, thinking of Putin XD

[@debbieshrubb1222]

Some great critical analysis skills demonstrated. I always felt uncomfortable with the inclusion of the Sermon on the Mount in the BOM.

[@ThomasJDavis]

1:06:24 Right. Because if God employed both a tight and loose translation with Joseph, then God would be responsible for people's apostasy over this controversial issue because God would be the one responsible for crafting the book's translation process in such a way so as to make it appear fraudulent. And for the apologist who wants to say, "Well that's why we have to have faith", it doesn't take making the restoration of the gospel with a known conman appear fraudulent in order to have faith in its truthfulness. There's enough supernatural claims in the story to keep it unfalsifiable. All you need is an angel giving Joseph Smith the original record to translate. You don't need the appearance of fraud!

[@mormonstories]

Amen

[@mygoldennotebook2191]

Thanks!

[@SuperAndrewWK]

The way that I found the overlap/plagiarism/ connection (whatever u want to call it) Between KJV and BOM is reading the BOM and thinking the wording of the stories sounded word-for-word identical to what I knew of the KJV being raised Catholic. I Googled the exact words I that gave me the weird feeling and found the Site Book of Mormon origins. The site lets you read the BOM and within each line of text has links back to the source content and location in the KJV and other sources.

[@Jsppydays]

You and Mike are worth every dime you all make! Amazing honest well documented infornation. We also know you are honest in reporting your financial. After learning how the LDS Church Hides financial information, I'm sure you would do the opposite. Just saying. You guys rock. Keep up the great work

[@davidfitnesstech]

I always try to be respectful when it comes discussing "The BOOK Of MORON".

[@cynthiab3168]

Hi @Mormon Stories Podcast ! This episode didn't make it into the playlist you're creating. Just thought you should know :)

[@ThomasJDavis]

So I think the general point in showing the conflicts between the tight translation and KJV errors in the BoM is that it clearly implies, if not demonstrates beyond a reasonable doubt, that the BoM was a purely man made book. It shows that, once we know what the actual, correct claim about the BoM translation was, we can then attempt to falsify it. And the situation surrounding the KJV errors are one way to falsify the tight translation claim for the BoM's production.

[@richardholmes5676]

The Book of Mormon is obviously not a purely man made book.

[@bapanana1]

I've been looking everywhere for the "playlist" for this entire series with absolutely no luck. Can someone please give me the link to the playlist so that I can watch all of them in chronological order? thank you.

[@satutoivonen9679]

kzbin.info/aero/PLxq5opj6GqOB7J1n6pMmdUSezxcLfsced

[@DebraJean196]

I finally sent an email to Dr Dehlin. The set should be back under the “playlist” tab now if you are still looking. 6/21/23

[@patricianoel7782]

I’m concerned with the thought that “they” weren’t co-conspirators. There was a lot of future power and money involved. Also, what is the reasoning about why we’re the plates retrieved if they were never used for translation. Any thoughts?

[@norma9975]

The Bible also say don’t add or take away my words

[@juliaboon9741]

48:30 apparently the word “mile” is the correct one in that the Romans were the ones who created the word. The word “mile” is from the Latin “mille passus” meaning “a thousand paces” which was shortened to “millia” and became the English “Mile”. Still doesn’t change the fact it IS a Roman law and the ancient people of the BOM wouldn’t know what this phrase was referring to.

[@tykempton8562]

at about 48 minutes when talking about the "mile", it is from the Roman mille passeus which did not originate until about 1500AD. It was 5000 paces.

[@elainebeard2922]

I would like to go back to the start of this.Where do I find it.🌹thank you

[@markridgway8469]

I think you missed a trick - this could have been episode 1611... :P

[@tammymullins5240]

I'm trying to find the books that was left out of king James bible

[@lizzieb19450]

Again I know I am late to the party but this has to be my favorite series! Donate Monthly to Mormon Stories!!!

[@user-bw3fl7fj9w]

Mormonstories.....is there a longer podcast of the woman giving her reaction to her first lds temple experience??..it doesn't give her name, was released today as a short video...thanks!

[@mormonstories]

Coming Monday.

[@user-bw3fl7fj9w]

@@mormonstories great, thanks!

[@examiningreligiousclaims9883]

The KJV problems are extensive in the Book of Mormon. Enos 1:1 uses the phrase “in the nurture and admonition of the lord”. This same phrase is found in the KJV translation of Ephesians 6:4. Ephesians is now widely considered to be a forged letter; someone wrote it pretending to be Paul. 2 Peter is also considered by many to be a forgery. Yet the phrase “and the elements shall melt with fervent heat” (2 Peter 3:10) makes an appearance in Mormon 9:2. Also, Joseph decided to "fix" Isaiah 2:9. He should have been more careful. Isaiah 2:8-9 condemns idolatry. 2 Nephi 12:8-9 condemns NOT practicing idolatry: Isaiah 2:8-9: Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made: And the mean man boweth down, and the great man humbleth himself: therefore forgive them not. 2 Nephi 12:8-9: Their land is also full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made. And the mean man boweth not down, and the great man humbleth himself not, therefore, forgive him not. It somehow got past Joseph that verse 9 was a continuation of verse 8. Who knew!

[@tinakirkman2742]

It makes no sense. If he has the golden plates why does he need the hat and the stone? I was always taught he translated from the golden plates.

[@monus782]

Is this why Mormons seem to be KJV Onlyists to us nonMormons? I know for Spanish they use the Reina Valera which is the Spanish equivalent to the KJV (sort of).

[@kennethd.9436]

46:23 since the end of the BOM uses “Adieu”, Jesus should have said Kilometer, standardized in the 1790s. Hamlet is better in the original Klingon. 😄

[@goodstory5890]

I STILL cannot believe that Joseph implemented HIMSELF 😳 in the ending of Genesis 50 🙄! SMOGH 😩

[@kennethd.9436]

46:23 Jesus saying “mile” to the Nephites makes it particularly anachronistic. If the Book of Mormon had described distances small to “a day’s journey”, he might have avoided the anachronism.

[@denz4133]

Spoiler alert. The church isn’t true. ‘The more you know’

[@richardholmes5676]

Spoiler alert. The church is true. Just thought id correct you on your lie.

[@johnrowley310]

@@richardholmes5676 its not a lie if you believe it...

[@dab7963]

Since Joseph Smith buried his face in a hat with a seeing stone you would not even need gold plates. What would be their purpose

[@garybehunin3071]

And none of his prophecy’s came true which in direct contradiction of the bible

[@Scott-t2p]

@@garybehunin3071 prophecy is not set in stone

[@garybehunin3071]

@@Scott-t2p my brother I am agreeing with your statement sorry for the confusion

[@ATiredMom]

To be fair, OT texts are harder to verify and date, but when it comes to the gospels within the NT of the Bible, they have texts in the original languages that they believe date back as close as 30AD, but at least 50 AD. So these are texts that actually would have been circulating while people who were alive when Jesus walked the Earth would have been able to see them and handle them potentially, so it's pretty significant when it comes to ancient historical documents. Much more reliability than many historical texts and definitely more reliable than the BOM.

[@iateabagelonce]

I really like all the research Mike has done on this topic. I still think the presentation might have gone smoother if an additional guest was utilized - someone with academic experience with the Bible, specifica lly with the KJV. There are several errors in Mike's research and in Mike's interpretation of the research, that make this episode a bit difficult for me. John also makes a few protestations that simply aren't true (the "mile" discussion especially, which is based in a Roman unit of measurement). I think a lot of the dissonance in this episode comes from a lack of understanding of why the KJV exists at all. The use of italics to usefully translate idioms which any translator worth their salt will do in any application of translating, the KJV translating from Greek for the New Testament and from Masoretic Hebrew and Aramaic for the Old Testament, the prioritization of readability over accuracy (which does not automatically make the KJV an "inferior" translation - it just means that the creators of the KJV valued a different kind of audience and translated according to a more general audience's needs. It does not mean that the KJV translators were less skilled translators). I feel a lot of passion for Bible translations for some reason, lol. The reason the Bible was ever translated at ALL was to make the text readable to regular people like you and me, which took a lot of power from manipulative and sometimes greedy priests back in ye olden days and put it in the hands of slightly more common - and then very much more common - folk. My curiosity about Bible translation began when I learned about the Serbian translation of the Bible. The South Slavic Bible Institute predates the KJV and includes a lot of fascinating characters, leading up to the contributions of Vuk Karadzic in the mid-1800s. What I LOVE about this episode, however, is how Mike highlights what JS probably thought about the KJV BEFORE he received formal education in Hebrew, probably Egyptian, and probably in the Bible itself. The average christian is most likely not going to understand what the KJV is, why it exists, or what the italics mean - JS probably just saw the italics, thought "someone translated the Bible from an ancient language and changed the text to mean what they WANTED it to mean, not what the original writers really wrote!" and therefore focused most of his revisions around the italics as a result. It's super important what Mike points out about JS's lack of biblical scholarship when the BoM was being created. I can see where apologists are coming from - they float around the idea of JS gaining insight into the "original" Bible writers prior to the sources the KJV and NRSV used for their translations. For me, though, it lines up too well with how JS did not know enough about the Bible to create an understandable narrative around his "translations."

[@nortoncancellation]

Whenever Mike says "KJV," I keep hearing KGB.

[@GKxForm]

Have there been - or are there scheduled - any honest dialogs between the Mormon Stories hosts and the "current theologians" in LDS leadership?

[@avasgranb1]

Even the use of “thou” and “you” changed through the years. “Thou” is now seen as an out of date formal (and possibly romantic or reverent) form of expression, while “you” is more causal. But in the past “you” was used when addressing an intimate relationship. The use of These words have switched in popular usage quite a bit.

[@isabelateixeira3713]

I’m mainline Protestant and nevermo, so to say that when John said this 33:35 my jaw dropped is an understatement lol😅

[@jakobeberhardt7318]

The claim that Isaiah 2:16 was mistranslated in the KJV in false; the words “upon” and “against” could be used synonymously in the 17th century and earlier. Both the Geneva bible and the Douay-Rheims translate Isaiah 2:16 the same as the KJV; the Geneva bible was first completed in 1560 and the Douay-Rheims in 1610 (although it was an English translation of the Latin Vulgate and not the Hebrew Masoretic text). Wycliffe’s translation in the 14th century (also a translation of the Vulgate) uses the words “and on” instead of “upon” which is more in line with the modern meaning of the word “upon” than with the 17th century definition of it. Interestingly the modern Orthodox Jewish Bible uses the word “upon” rather than “against”. The use of the word “pictures” versus “craft” is wholly dependent upon which edition of the Hebrew Masoretic text that is being implemented. Most modern translations prefer the use of: “craft”, “ships”, or “vessels”. That being said some modern translations that prefer “pictures” would be: Young's Literal Translation, World English Bible, Jubilee Bible 2000, American Standard Version, and the Amplified Bible Classic Edition.

[@notme9881]

Why does Mike keep saying KGV? I swear he was saying KGB at some points.

[@whothinksforme]

Total "aha" moment for me tonight. The number of times you guys reference FAIR Mormon just made me realize that, this religion has a whole website dedicated towards its problems. If a religion has to have a whole website dedicated to address its problems that's a pretty clear indication that it's just simply not true.

[@Fatfinger4378]

Exactly. And that website is itself a problem. I discovered FAIR long before the gospel topic essays or the CES Letter existed and their excuses, rationalizations, and outright deceit completely destroyed every bit of testimony I ever had; no "anti" needed.

[@nigelcobalt]

12:03. exactly!! This definitely should be the case, since the nephites had been (for some reason) given a higher law, and were practicing full christianity 600 years before Jesus was born. So obviously they were ready for some new stuff that the jews wouldn't have gotten. Can't argue that 3 nephi 11 should be exactly the same as the sermon on the mount, when the entire BC sections of the bom are preaching full christianity. That to me is the most anachronistic part of the Book of Mormon, page 1 of first nephi, to 3 nephi ch11. There shouldn't be any mention of baptism, following jesus, all of that stuff. How can you follow jesus if he isn't born yet? You literally have no idea what he did, cause he didn't do it yet. The problem with the Book of Mormon is right under the title and it seems like it is a good thing, and it is, if its just a novel. "Another testament of Jesus Christ". That is actually a problem, the BC (before christ) prophets in the Book of Mormon talk WAY too much about Jesus. It didn't happen like that in the Old Testament, and for good reason. Compare the BC section of the Book of Mormon with the old testament. They are vastly different. Why? They shouldn't be. The parts of the Book of Mormon before Christ should be boring and mostly about wars and kings and such, like the Old Testament. If Joseph Smith got a mulligan, I think he should have Lehi leave jerusalem, then there is Nephi and some wars and stuff, and then fast forward to Jesus visiting in 3ne ch11. THEN, you have mosiah, alma, king benjamin, and all of the testifying of jesus and christianity, etc. Thats where it should be, not before. Its impossible for it to be before.

[@kimgoeckeritz6320]

In 1 Corinthians 14:33 it says “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.” Whether you believe in God or not, this statement gets thrown out the window with all the mind bending you have to do to make Joseph Smith and his Book of Mormon work. A God that makes things this confusing is not a God I want to spend eternity with. That sounds exhausting!

[@darrenrowe3861]

20:00 you discuss that it's an issue that a significant anount of differences between isaiah and the BOM are italics... Isn't that what we'd expect to be different if the BOM was a translation from God? To clarify, I believe Joseph made up the BOM, that it's not of God, and that any demonstrably incorrect changes to italicized words are proof of its fraud. But changes to italicized words in general aren't proof of fraud. It's exactly what we'd expect.

[@dl1130]

Maybe the new Book of Mormon production that the church is putting in millions of dollars to produce will make the BofM true?

[@Doctordevey]

I have been out of the church for years. I am 44 and just found out that the KIJ translation isn't accurate. I was told (and repeated on my mission) that the kij Bible is the most correct translation of the Bible and inspired by God. Forgive me for what i repeated.

[@lawrenceagnew3972]

BoM is such big fat lie

[@chuckkv]

Its a well made point that we don't know _how_ he was looking at the KJV, to do Isaiah, but he's clearly doing it. Especially in light of the JST proven to be plagiarized from Adam Clarke now, with no mention from witnesses about Clarke being in the table either. It's now a pattern.

[@KidVolcano]

I know I'm late to the party, but I hope ep. 1611 is also about the KJV...

[@weir_family]

I jept thinking Russian KGB every time he said that!

[@hanako4475]

I kept hearing "KGB" 😂

[@lizzieb19450]

The apologists keep saying all the evidence is just around the corner for The Book of Mormon. Ignore all the errors in the KJV Bible that Joseph Smith Clearly copied into the Book of Mormon. Even though u are told your entire life that this is the one true church and Joseph Smith literally had peep stones or seer stones that would have words on them from GOD and would only change if God said yes ur scribe copied down what I said and ur interpretation is correct and ur scribe correctly read back what I, God intended…only then would the words change. So what’s more likely this omnipotent God purposely made a bunch of mistakes and gave them to Joseph Smith. Or Joseph Smith copied the errors straight from the KJV of the Bible straight into the Book of Mormon on his own bc he is the author and the whole book is his story. Apologists seem to want Mormons to believe there is evidence just around the corner that will solve all these problem in the Book of Mormon and beyond, including the Book of Abraham,etc and even problems with later revelations not in the BoM. I would argue that every year truth claims and church history has gotten worse for the church. I have never known another church that had an actual group of people to defend the myths found in all religions and they call them apologists….and people accept their work and mind gymnastics and added conjecture to deal poorly at best with church history and it’s truth claims. If there are older older scrolls of Isaiah, I would argue, that it would only hurt Mormonism….as all actual historical evidence, archeological finds, science advances has disproved The Book of Mormon. (In of course my humble opinion.)

[@itsemeinin]

I would like to point out that i liked this video causing the number of likes to go up to 666, 😂

[@Clintcellington]

👍

[@jamesnutt4627]

Emma knew the truth , she let her future grand daughters live horribly lives , she knew first hand the hell future women would feel , Lucy actual would of been hero almost stop this farce , as we know , look back in that time your word meant something that’s all you had !

[@allthingsfrench1391]

Scholars should stay away from the KJV... they try to intellectualize the Bible. The smarter you are the less likely you are to receive the Kingdom. I could care less about the Mormon church... which reminds me of Scientology. The scribes of the day did their best to transcribe the work which in the least is very difficult... but that's not to say it was wrong. If you understand and you can find the meaning behind the words of you're truly interested then it's not an obstacle. I would like to add that the Bible is not secular history and this is where scholars get it all wrong. They are looking for a Jesus and a God outside of themselves. Do you not know that Jesus is in you? (Paul to the Corinthians). And words like take up thy bed in another version states take up thy couch.. when you have an understanding within, you know what that means. God..I AM is within you. This is a world of death and decay until you awaken. The Bible is the story of every man. Each name represents a state of conciousness until you reach the Christ conciousness, from the old testament into the New. Good luck with this nonsense.

[@lordhytro]

Although I have enjoyed most of the other podcasts, this one disappointed me because of the stance on the KJV. The main reason most new translations exist is because the KJV isn't copyrighted, thus anyone can make copies for free. In order to sell bibles, you have to make a new translation; which means you have to change something, which may or may not remove or alter something important. Depending on what your stance is, you can choose which transcripts to employ in your translation. Then you have to convince people that yours is better, some are less scrupulous at this than others. King James English is the most precise. People living in Joseph's time had a really good understanding of it. It is clear that Joseph plagiarized the bible, but using the argument that he translated errors is weak. I have heard so many "scholars" tooting their own horns about how wise they are, when it readily becomes apparent that they are mostly lost in the weeds, and full of crap. I once heard a wise man say that you don't correct the bible, the bible corrects you, and he was right. If people would have read and understood their bible, they wouldn't need all these podcasts, they would have never joined the church in the first place.

[@anarchorepublican5954]

📚📖✨🧐Never a Mormon: but I know the Bible and its many translations (I personally own over 100 different translations in English):..."Suffering" (a KJV word) through you two- bumble, stumble and stutter thru "¿the Errors?" of the King James Version- (probably the most influential single book in the English language), ...was like listening to scrapping on a chalk board...So I'm gonna spare myself the further suffrage of your Deutero -Isaiah and Long Mark discussions...Just being assured that the purported far more "ancient" Book of Mormon contains quite obvious and direct verbatim anachronistic quotations from the KJV will suffice .... Advice: stick with Mormonism for your critiques...it's what you know... Because, when it comes to "Bible! Bible!, we have a Bible, and we need no more Bible " style criticism...you're entirely out of your element...and frankly over your heads in agnostic arrogance...

[@janellevans878]

Sorry everytime you say KJB I think of the Russian version of the FBI&CIA.

[@kodiakkid6152]

KGV… lmao

[@staceygill2394]

I thought I was hearing it wrong, thanks for saying that.

[@lindsey8669]

I heard KGB 😂

[@cindymacferran331]

Wow! This is how you spend your time?! I will never get it…

[@rogermadsen6007]

Thats where the urim and thumin

[@rogermadsen6007]

Comes into

[@rockthemic12]

Mile as a unit of measurement has Roman roots, a thousand (mille) paces en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mile#Roman Mike was talking about a Roman practice of compelled labor: “it specifically refers to the power of the Romans to demand that a local serve as a guide or porter” en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_5:41 Neither the unit of measurement or the practice of compelled labor to an occupying authority would have been familiar to people in the Americas. This is the only place the word mile or the practice of compelled labor appears in the Book of Mormon.