The "Kiriko" Problem || Overwatch 2

[@jebalitabb8228]

The point of hate never going away even after multiple nerfs is so true, I love playing supports but no matter who I pick it feels like someone is mad at me nowadays lol

[@Elizabeth68337]

Kirko is a symptom of the greater disease of do everything heroes that started back in Overwatch 1 and seems to be the primary design philosophy since. Kiri has insane damage decent consistent healing, vertical mobility, and suzu that can heal cancel ultimates, and cleanse status effects. The issue isnt with Kiri specifically most of the new characters have this issue and it is a major problem.

[@Mr_Chasm]

Even if you pick her up as a new player you are already ahead of an experienced player by character alone. Most other characters do what older characters do better simply via power creep Ram can act independently from his shield can target supports better by changing forms and is better long range. Junker Queen has more sustain than roadhog by a long shot. Mauga is high damage and high sustain and can just ignore cc. Soujurn has been top since she was released even if shes not in the meta. Im afraid Blizzard just won’t change her because then her fans will get mad and not buy skins.

[@Elizabeth68337]

​@@Mr_ChasmThis is so true

[@afterthought9538]

The statement about hero hatred is 100% correct. I mained Hanzo but he was neutered in S9, losing his one-shot. People still find ways to complain about him even when he has the worst winrate in the DPS role. As a high rank DPS player, I don't really have an issue with Suzu, and I believe if it IS in fact an evil, it is 100% necessary. As far as TP goes, I do understand the complaints, because it's not necessarily the TP they hate, but the fact that there is no use condition other than range (as it goes through walls), making it the most reliable and potent get-out-of-jail-free card with no counterplay. You can totally screw up on positioning, being completely caught out, but still escape. No other escape ability functions this way. In many players' eyes, it "breaks the rules" of fairness. A counter example would be that Moira has Fade. However, there is a condition for the Fade to be effective, this being nearby cover - you still have a chance to kill her after she uses it. Same thing with Wraith, Shadow Step, Blinks, Rewind, and Translocator. If there was any one change I'd say Kiri needs, it's only on TP, and that is to add the condition of LoS of the TP target being needed. If Suzu even needs any changes, the intangibility is the only thing that should get changed. However, I don't like the idea of it being useless against Doom's multi-hit with Punch...

[@marvalmej007]

Recommendation: Listen to the talk, don't focus on the gameplay. Great insights! Thank you for sharing this video!

[@213374u425]

The comparisons made to suzu in this video are not comparable, such as saying bastion turret form is an ult cancel, or for matrix abilities being able to eat a projectile. Those have clear weaknesses such as being directional and only applying to projectiles. Suzu is well known to be broken for being a blanket non-directional invulnerability and cleanse AND heal, the amount of ultimate and non-ultimate abilities it can counter at a high level is not comparable to any other tool in the game. Despite many other cooldowns existing in the game offering survival utility, every DPS player is spending whatever cooldowns they have to trade out suzu specifically due to it's unique strength. Comparing the ability to teleport through multiple walls to safely instantly to Mei ice block (sits in a block in wherever she blocked, allowing her to be burst down on release due to no reposition) and hog vape (healing / damage reduction, no mobility) is disingenuous and doesn't cover why TP is broken. TP is broken because Kiri can take any duel anywhere from any angle, and instantly fully escape. Mei cannot take an aggressive off angle and then ice block, they will be burst to death once the ability window ends. Kiriko's kit changes the way the game is played fundamentally, and offers so much value for low effort (thus reliably always gets value) and offers safety and reward for overly aggressive positioning. The space control that can be achieved with that cooldown is mind boggling. I am a support player, and support is by far the strongest role currently, and in the strongest state it has been in since perhaps mass rez. Much of the conversation around Kiri is frustrating because much of the complaining is substance-less and some complaints are incorrect, but many of them are accurate. Until the community can meet in the middle and realistically talk about character and ability strength without being disingenuous on both sides, these conversations will continue. Wish you the best on your content creation journey.

[@AtlantisBrooke]

I could agree with most of what you said until you stated support being the strongest role currently. The strongest role is dps. The 20% passive they have has made them extremely strong again and while it's not as bad as the earlier season they were busted, it's still more so than the other roles.

[@213374u425]

​@@AtlantisBrooke Given Tracer and Sojourn still being the meta and their ability to apply small amounts of damage (and therefore the passive) to several targets with ease I don't fully disagree, it's pretty close. I do feel more in control of lobbies on support but that's subjective.

[@amandopurperhart1351]

Have you stopped playing in season 8 or before? Support at this moment is probably the weakest role again.

[@213374u425]

@@amandopurperhart1351 I'd say tank is widely agreed upon as the weakest role currently. Support is worse since season 9 due to the DPS passive, but was an over tuned role before that point. Support is extremely strong currently, even with the DPS passive changes. Your cooldowns and the ability to both keep your team engaged and alive, and be proactive with damage allows a lot of control over the lobby.

[@amandopurperhart1351]

@@213374u425 not after latest mid season patch

[@majorcasualties9306]

The issue with the suzu is that it's easy to DENY abilities and it's not hard to hit. Learning to throw your e after an ult to stop it is easy. Almost every other ability needs to be timed correctly or has to be used before it happens, not lamp or suzu they can just be used after or before depending on which. it doesn't matter no real timing required unless your very slow or just new to kiri. Saying deflect can block ults is factually true but cannot compare to suzu in any way shape or form. TP is a get out of jail free once again it is easy to use and takes no skill to do so, almost EVERY other get out of jail free ability has glitches too an extent that is not a Kiri issue and eventually will get you killed due to misuse. She is an anti fun hero at the end of the day. Outside of her ult and healing she can randomly kill you from across the map thanks to no falloff which is not fun. Her TP is the easiest get out of jail free ability (maybe second to Moira) which is also not fun for other players and her suzu denies whatever u want it to which is also not fun. Any character that is built around denying ability is bad for the game Kiri bap weaver horse are just some examples. Kiri is my second most played character and the main support I use but I can still realize she is basically toxic for the game. Thinking she needs no changes is wild, support is the most chill roll in the game. Saying other supports cannot keep up?? Zen can be oppressive and bap has the ability to take over lobbies.

[@seanhand446]

Threaten the cooldowns, bait them, get value. Sam thing against Kiriko, then it won't be a problem.

[@majorcasualties9306]

@@seanhand446 yes that's all obvious and not what I was saying. She is a character whose entire point is to stop other abilities and that is not fun to play against.

[@disaster2742]

just some friendly formatting advice, lower the game volume and maybe add some quiet music so the background audio isn’t obstructive to your speaking :)

[@wm8401]

Appreciated the perspective. In a vacuum, she's absurdly busted - just preposterous. 250 hp with a hitbox the size of baby dva, healing that doesn't require precision, wall climb and 2 magic buttons... completely unacceptable on it's own - if this were a legitimate game. But as you alluded to, game wide there's just so many ridiculous, easy to land abilities, magic buttons, over the top hp pools, etc. that she almost has to be ridiculous to function. I still play and watch content but it's just impossible to take the game seriously with so much overpowered nonsense. I haven't noticed excessive kiriko hate besides washed oafs on KZbin who make tier lists and cry about 6v6. She's crazy strong but so what - it doesn't even matter now and what about the other supports? Bap has never, EVER been acceptable for 1 second of his entire OW existence. Illari and Moira are far more putrid and insulting than kiri - both those heroes are a slap in the face to the player base. It's like the devs saying "we know how shit you are at this game, try these 2 out". Zen is brainless af, it used to mean something to play Ana.....ah fuck, I'll stop there. Anyway, thanks for the vid.

[@tanqrfan43]

People in this game are pretty crazy about that sort of stuff, i had once someone threatening to ban me in unranked because i didnt play well but i just tried out a new tank... But i completely agree with you. Hope Blizard sees this.

[@AtlantisBrooke]

It's unlikely sadly that anyone from bliz will see it since I'm a smaller creator. But yeah, it's so wild that people get all pissy about such things.

[@tanqrfan43]

@@AtlantisBrooke Well i hope so because that what they need/should do listen to people that actually play the game. Because i enjoy the game but sometimes its just annoying or even frustrating.

[@AtlantisBrooke]

@tanqrfan43 yeah, mostly likely they only see stuff from bigger creators

[@babyryoga]

1) People hate immortality abilities. They don't really have a place in a game like OW; hence why Bap has been considered problematic in the past, even with his lamp being nerfed again and again and again. Kiri is the same, and I'm a little confused when you said she was liked at first. The Suzu problem has basically existed since OW2's release, though it probably didn't become apparent for a month or two of grace period due to the game being too new. This is the actual "problem" so to speak, but it's also worth mentioning: 2) Kiri's ult has basically always been the best ult in the entire game from the time of her release. Between that and suzu, she's basically been the best support in the game since OW2 launch. Occasionally Lucio is up there in certain metas, but there hasn't been a patch since OW2 launch where Kiriko isn't at the "S" rank of pretty much every content creator who makes tier lists regularly (if you care about that sort of thing). I don't think i've ever heard anyone call her a no-skill hero; her main fire is one of if not the hardest to hit consistently with. I've DEFINITELY never seen anyone call her well-designed, quite the opposite really. It's all basically suzu hate. What they should do is lower the CD for Suzu but just have it heal and cleanse, with no phase out.

[@yunli8281]

I think the whole hp increase and dps passive make most supports from "can both dmg and heal" to "cant damage nor heal". HP increase hurts support's damage break point more than other two roles (tank also get hit hard by this, but this is another topic). Kiriko used to two tap, but now she can only three tap. And if the target is getting healing, those three kunai have to be all headshots. But you also have to spend more time healing because hp is higher and dps passive reduce healing. Similar things can be said mercy, it's not because blue beam is useless in s9 and s10, it's because she needs to spend so much time healing to barely keep her team alive. The game was never designed around healing reduction in mind, and implementation is very problematic, there needs to be some dmg threshold to activate it instead of "a single bullet reduce healing for 2 sec". If the healing was too high, reduce healing for some supports (remember s6 illari? 120 healing per sec on beam). If the burst damage was the problem, make them less forgiving/longer cd, don't increase hp globally. All patches since s9 are just all bandaid, sure they address some problems, but also create a lot of new ones.

[@Disappointed_Philosoraptor]

instructive criticism: The game audio should be a bit quieter, it was sometimes louder than your voice, makeing it hard to understand what you said. Aside from that, How would you fix other supports?

[@AtlantisBrooke]

My first change would be bringing the dps passive down to 15 and making there be a damage minimum that is different for each hero.

[@wyattenge6913]

Yay a new creator.

[@AtlantisBrooke]

Hello!

[@wendigo374]

Best way is just ignore things like this. It’s a necessary evil. Every role needs fun and impactful heroes and not every hero will be viable.

[@Shogattsu]

A single support with an overloaded kit is the reason why Kiri is too strong. Suzu's intangibility is a very strong ability and the fact that tp makes her much harder to punish causes much frustration in the community.

[@lukeaustin4465]

They even nerfed roadhog purely because of kiri, roadhogs one shot was fine until kiri came along. Roadhogs one shot was necessary, tank players should have had the ability to go roadhog and secure picks on their own if their dps were performing poorly.

[@yune5521]

Im a low elo gold support player but this is my take. Why add a cleanse if you were removing all CC from the game why rework character to not have such abilitys if you are adding something to make them more balanced. i think the issue is kiriko dosent have a lot to cleanse but what she can clease is very strong if there was more to cleanse in a game it makes it better i think but i might be stuipd xD

[@AtlantisBrooke]

There's actually a lot to cleanse and that's why people get upset. She can make someone take absolutely no damage for... a very very short period of time, and ppl hate it.

[@yune5521]

@@AtlantisBrooke maybe if they got rid of the invunrbility? thats a hard word to spell

[@wendigo374]

@@yune5521that’s hard to code

[@dantebautista_]

First video ever watched by you. Probably because I’m getting into overwatch again. I loved the video but the game audio was a little hard to hear you. Hope to see you in my feed again.

[@AtlantisBrooke]

Glad you enjoyed it! The audio has been an issue for me for ages. Probably my mic.

[@Monsterpoxa]

3:21 what does she say? And which changes did we have in that season?

[@AtlantisBrooke]

It was the changes with health. They upped everyone's health and her dps for hs stayed at like 112

[@itsmandu]

The hate for supports are real. I’m a kiri and mercy main.. but I don’t even play kiri anymore. She feels to weak and not worth it. I want to two tap like used to. :( it’s feels almost impossible to make anything happen because of dps passive. Healing with kiri feels so bad.. I don’t wanna be afking just press the heal button and as soon as I try do any play-making myself then a teammate dies right away.

[@AtlantisBrooke]

I know how it feels. Both of them are my mains and no matter what I do I'm fucked basically. And it's like that for any support

[@isobelyyy]

did you just say kiriko feels weak

[@itsmandu]

@@isobelyyy yup, her healing is slow as f*ck and can’t secure kills in two heat shots anymore. With her slow healing then then there is the 20% dps passive. Have u played kiri when she first came out ISOBEL. Great spelling of ur name btw…😅🤣 kiri at the beginning of ow2 to now is a huge difference. Yeah, she can be considered okay as she is now but she isn’t how she used to be..

[@isobelyyy]

@@itsmandu are you mentally undeveloped

[@isobelyyy]

@@itsmandu if the only thing you do is stay and healbot behind a well then ofc you aren't winning

[@Mehugga]

Im a Doomfist and Wrecking Ball main and for me what i disliked about kiri is her small hitbox,, and the fact that she has 2 abilities that basically get her out of trouble. She is overkitted is what i would say. And before her damage output was nerfed her damange was dumb with the double tap specifically. I think she is in a much better place now but its still annoying to fight her, cause she can either cleanse or tp away or both and its hard to keep track of cooldowns. But also all immortality abilities are kinda stupid except mei's i find that to be somewhat fair but i dont really like mei either as a tank lol. Now Orisa thats a character that is horrible in every way Edit: No one apart from Supports wants supports to be strong. I think they should either be good at defending themselves and their team but not very lethal or be lethal but not very defensive. It is support afterall not healer

[@AtlantisBrooke]

I think something the whole community can agree on is orisa is the WORST

[@mizu0340]

@@AtlantisBrooke just saying another strong hero doesnt negate kiris faults

[@milesgomez8253]

Ana/Zen are walking targets so them having powerful offense makes sense. Brig doesn't have ranged damage consistently. Lucio has a long amp cooldown so he doesn't put out insane numbers These characters have reasonable flaws

[@Juya97]

This community is EXTREMLY biased against supports for no reason. they've been like that since overwatch 1

[@AtlantisBrooke]

Yeah, but I've noticed it's gotten a lot worse more recently bc of how ow2 is set up and how the devs can't seem to balance heros well.

[@Elizabeth68337]

My guess is its due to support being overturned ever since Brig came out and which supports you have dictates which dps and tank heroes you can play like you cannot run a Rein with Lucio Mercy. Very often what the rest of the team plays in the meta is based off of what supports are strong like for a few months in Overwatch 1 when Brig Zen were the meta so you had to play Sig, Hog, or Ball otherwise you would just loose.

[@blubloopp]

😝

[@xXLJoseph]

First of all i am a support player myself. I am usually playing Zen, Ana and sometimes Brig. Kiriko is overtuned. Anyone saying otherwise dont understand the game. Kiri has everything without any weaknesses. Ironically she is still S-Tier although she lost her 2-tab potential since season 9 because her overtuned abilities are still the same. The problem with Kiri is/was not her damage. She can take all these duels for free and thats why she is hated so much especially by dps players. She doesnt even have 1 jail free card (like moira f.e.) but 2 + a skinny hitbox + wallclimb. Both her abilities are overwriting everything without any downsights. Theres no way you are actually comparing suzu to dva DM, Sig Rock, Rein shield etc. and that you want to keep the invulnerability on suzu is just delusional, im sry i dont want to get personal but these arguments are stupid. THAT is the reason why most support players are "hated" in the community because they dont understand neutral ability exchanges. That happens if you baby a role for multiple years (since moiras release) but that wasnt always true because the OG-supps (Zen, Lucio, Mercy) + Ana are not designed like this. These heros are fine because they have fair drop offs, no overwriting abilities and no value deny abilities at 0 mechanical requirement. Illari might be the best support hero since Ana. The only problematic ability is her pylon because it has infinite uptime instead of a timer that destroys the pylon. You said that Kiri is fine and all the other supports are just bad. Thats a stupid take because look back what happened to support from season 1 to season 7. Instead of nerfing Kiri properly they just buffed every other support which made the experience for Dps and Tanks miserable. Please dont do the same mistake twice. Just tune down Kiri to the other supports. My suggestion would be to remove suzu's invulnerability, lower its CD and increase her torso hitbox. That way she would be more fair to play against. But i do agree with you that support feels terrible to play because of the dps-passive and thats 1 reason why i think that the 5v5-format is way worse than the 6v6-format because they are trying to put the power of the off-tank into passives, support abilities and in general into cooldowns. 5v5 just encourages hero design like Kiriko f.e. if we would be in 6v6 these abilities dont even have to be that strong at their base. Kiriko wouldnt need the ability to teleport through walls because there are more players on the field etc. The game is in a weird spot rn because every role feels miserable to play: -Tank: gets hit with every CD as a solo-tank, no gameplay options and more counterswapping because no off-tank to mitigate each others weaknesses etc. -DPS: you cannot kill a tank by yourself because they are super tanks in 5v5, dueling a support is way harder because of stronger abilities like TP, Suzu, Bap Lamp etc. -Support: Dps-passive makes the experience miserable and a lot of heros suffer because of it (Ana, Mercy, LW etc.) In conclusion: I know heros like Kiriko, Baptiste, illari, LW, Brig etc. are/can be fun to play but Blizz needs to look at the overwriting-abilities to make the heros more fair to play against. The first step in general should be to take a step back and go back to 6v6 imo

[@wendigo374]

Going back to 6v6 involves rebalancing everything again. And forcing out both kiriko cds is a ton of value.

[@xXLJoseph]

@@wendigo374 ofc going back to 6v6 requires rebalancing especially in the Tank role but it is way easier to do that than trying to change/force all the Tank heros to work in 5v5 without destroying their identity + the solo Tank experience will still suck. Blizzard has years of Data for the Tank role in 6v6. Forcing cooldowns is value yes, but thats not my point. My point is that Kirikos abilities are overwriting everything and denying value by just pressing 1 button without any mechanical requirement. Using teleport or suzu is 100% value without being able to interact with it as the opponent

[@wendigo374]

@@xXLJoseph tanks in 6v6 were terrible too. They fell over just from getting looked at. Why does everything need a mechanical requirement? She’s a movement and positioning based character. Dva matrix and other similar abilities deny the enemy with the push of a button but waste it and you get punished for it.

[@xXLJoseph]

@@wendigo374 First of all, thats how Tanks should be designed. If they mess up they should get punished for it. In Overwatch 1 everyone could win or lose to ANYONE, role doesnt matter (exceptions were Mercy f.e. because that is one of her trade offs). You cannot kill the super Tank in 5v5 by yourself EVEN If the Tank player missplays. I'm not saying every ability needs to be mechanical intensive but the ability shouldnt overwrite everything and give way more value than an ability that is mechanical intensive. Suzu is an overpowered overwriting ability, not because of the cleanse or the heal but because of the invulnerability. You cannot interact with it. Thats my whole point. DVA DM can be pierced by half the abilities in the game, she cannot shoot her primary weapon while DMing and thats her only "tank"-ability. You could argue that DM lasts too long in OW2 compared to OW1 but thats not because of herself. Its the 5v5-format that forces her to be that way. Thats why i am saying that 6v6 is better because cooldowns dont have to be that strong at their Base especially in the Tank role

[@wendigo374]

@@xXLJoseph you’re typing way too much 🤣 kiriko can get punished

[@galacticplague6158]

Kiri is so fun to play and a lot of the hate is very unjustified. Shes very useful but not a requirment, its just good to have a well rounded pool of heros you can play. Support is just a miserable role to play now. The only thing I dislike about her and mercy is the disproportionate amount of skins she gets especially since new heros like venture only have paid skins now and that's it. Her skins are great! I just wish the untouched heros got a little more love as well. Rams few skins are so fugly 💀

[@AtlantisBrooke]

She's about on par now with many other heros in the game cosmetics wise, and they always will focus on more popular characters more now than before since you have to pay for them.

[@galacticplague6158]

@@AtlantisBrooke yeah I know thats the part that makes me sad :( I personally feel like the new characters have been getting less and less over time and it should maybe be a little more evenly distributed bur blizzard is ✨️greedy✨️

[@Elizabeth68337]

@@galacticplague6158 I know right where are Venture and Mauga's 4 base legendries that all heroes launch with?

[@wendigo374]

Support is not miserable at all rn there’s plenty of options

[@seanhand446]

Kiriko has no problems. People with short temper and failure to take accountability to improve is the problem. The hero doesn't play you. You play the hero.

[@intothenexus3633]

I agree