The Klingons: A Race Who Sucks At Everything War

[@sushijones]

I loved the Enterprise arc where they meet a Klingon doctor and he's just like "our whole civilization is going to crap because nobody wants to go into the sciences".

[@travisfoster1071]

It was a lawyer... a Klingon lawyer.

[@moonbear7496]

@@travisfoster1071 In another episode with the Klingon Augments, there was also a doctor who seems to bow blindly to their hierarchy. He was a servant of the warrior class.

[@thomassmith6232]

Sounds like the contemporary United States.

[@SamsTopBarBees]

Enterprise was an awesome series, I still get nostalgic about it.

[@angusmacfrankenstein7227]

Imagine Bones McCoy and a Klingon doctor arguing: “Good, God, man, you are _still_ using leeches?!” 😹

[@Jean-LucPicard85]

The Klingons' fatal mistake was ending up in a TV show written by humans. They stood no chance.

[@gregmita]

Not only that, but it's written mostly by humans who suck at writing.

[@jdluntjr76226]

😂😂😂

[@Novusod]

No match for the Federation's plot armor.

[@BagoPorkRinds]

The cha'DIch for Worf son of Mogh, House of Mogh has spoken!

[@MrNoobed]

Many such cases

[@_NIKOS9_NIKOS]

Keep in mind, these are the same people who charge at enemies with guns while wielding the most impractical melee weapons ever made.

[@littleredpony6868]

Hey, if you’re going to die bringing a knife to a phaser fight you might as well look cool doing it

[@indetigersscifireview4360]

Hear hear. The batleth, no bloody apostrophe, no bloody comma, no bloody asterisk, is unwieldy and in a single stroke opens up the wielder's entire body to attack.

[@patrickhurley481]

That always bothered me, melee weapons would only make since it their disrupors disabled phases and their armor blocked current real bullets

[@Sn0wc4t]

"Swords are Fun..."

[@shadowstalker130666]

I mean, i can see bringing a knife, or maybe a short sword at most as a backup or for close in fights. Especially in corridors in shipboard fights. A pistol style distruptor or phaser with a knife in the off hand make a good combo to clear halls and rooms. But klingon weapons suck.

[@LeonianUniverse]

Not gonna lie, I really would love to 6-hour video on the history of Klingon warfare.

[@JohnNathanShopper]

Yes

[@tomstev5026]

Make it 8. That way it’ll fill my whole work day 😂

[@WhispersOfWind]

I wouldn't mind one neither, on Klingons or anything else Star Trek Uni or basically any other Sci-Fi Universe. But also mostly Star Trek lol.

[@BioGoji-zm5ph]

And so the Klingons kept attacking each other until either one side was dead or both sides were dead. Then they did this again. And again. And again. And again...

[@JaredRay_1701]

I second that

[@tba113]

Techno-barbarians. They certainly aren't the only group in sci-fi to do so, but the Klingons are famous for bringing knives to starship fights - and unless they have staggeringly overwhelming numbers or a lopsided tech advantage, it generally goes about as well for them as you'd expect.

[@XSilver_WaterX]

Watered down Orks of WH40k, to the point where Gretchins can literally conquer the galaxy in 4 years with numbers of 4 billion. 4 billion is just the size of a scaving crew to Orks!

[@azoniarnl3362]

​@@XSilver_WaterX40k is joke..

[@XSilver_WaterX]

@@azoniarnl3362 true, but orks choose to happy with with their biologically programmed habits to stomp and conquer. plus, trek is a joke as well with its hypocrisy and technobabble.

[@knoahbody69]

The Romans weren't the best sailors either, but they found that boarding ships was highly effective. What makes good sailors isn't necessarily what makes good hand to hand combatants. The Klingons relied on "Shock and Awe."

[@anthonyramirez9925]

@@XSilver_WaterXexcept for the orcs can grow more of themselves far faster than the Klingons can, and the Klingon population isn’t in the quadrillions like the humans in 40k, they can’t afford these loses

[@Drdirkjackson]

I think the problem with the Klingons exist in the writing. Conceptually they're quite strong and interesting but the people tasked with writing them had little understanding of military ethos, culture, tactics, logistics,etc. That's why Ronald D. Moore was exceptional at writing them because of his Navy ROTC experience.

[@CaptainPositron]

Nany?

[@VladamireD]

@@CaptainPositron Pretty sure he meant "Navy".

[@Drdirkjackson]

@@VladamireD yeah, I'll fix it

[@yuvalgabay1023]

​@@CaptainPositronnani deska

[@knoahbody69]

Navy, Navy, I'm in doubt...Why your belly's sticking out...Is it women or is it wine? Or is it lack of PT time?

[@Noms_Chompsky]

When the space pirates show up at your colony with a battleship giving them an over 9000 force multiplier and calling themselves warriors, people just tend to hand over their crops and say "yes, great warrior."

[@Choalith_Ikanthe]

That's really the thing, though, isn't it? Even Worf in TNG demonstrated that the "honor" Klingons boast of is entirely different from what he'd perceive as "honorable". To Klingons, "honor" is an external validation, an obedience to the savage law of the mob. None of it is internalized, none of it is moralized. A Klingon will decloak and shove a torpedo up a civilian's ass, then call it "glorious", but will get bent when humiliated by a clever human because wits aren't "honorable". Advantages are only honorable to a Klingon when in the Klingon's benefit. Klingons are not warriors. They are bullies. Nothing is more honorable than winning.

[@RRW359]

Wasn't that the plot of an Enterprise episode?

[@Choalith_Ikanthe]

@@RRW359 It was certainly hinted at in them. SF Debris did highlight it very well in one of his reviews, though.

[@godoforder1828]

Sure but it stops working after you realize you can blast them from miles away with proper defences

[@LordVader1094]

@@Choalith_Ikanthe Nothing is more honourable than winning is pretty logical. That's the exact view of honour the samurai had historically. Honour doesn't matter if you lose and are dead, as well as those you care about.

[@dajonaneisnoah8714]

That outlier in "Yesterday's Enterprise" has a factor I've never seen anyone mention: The war with the Klingons had lasted 20 years. Later, when Star Trek added the Cardassians, the Cardassian Border Wars had lasted... *twenty years.* If the Cardassians had aligned with the Klingons, and the Klingons had provided them with modern weaponry and shields, they could have pushed across the border in force while the Klingons kept the bulk of Starfleet's attention. In addition, the Cardassians could have provided the Klingons the strategic vision which lets them really shine. It would have been much like the Dominion War, with the Klingons taking the role of the Jem'hadar. There is even a precedent for the possibility and success of such an alliance - consider that in the Mirror Universe the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance was what took down the Terran Empire.

[@kaitlyn__L]

TBH I don’t think it’s the same scale. The Cardassian Border Wars lasted 20 years in the same way that active military tensions in the Middle East have lasted 30 years, or 50 depending on who you ask.

[@jimbeam4736]

In the mirror universe the Terran empire was destroyed by a Klingon-Cardassian Alliance... (OMG, I commented even before I read your comment till the end)^^

[@haleffect9011]

Pretty sure the Romulans were helping the Klingons in Yesterday's enterprise

[@casbot71]

​@@haleffect9011That's my take as well. The Duras's were alive and well and in cahoots with the Romulans, they may have very well had great influence in the High Council. In fact the War could have ultimately have been a Romulan plot... get their two greatest rivals to beat up on each other and have the one they secretly have compromised come out on top.

[@russellmz]

last tng episode the Klingons took down the romulans

[@AndrewJamesWilliams]

The thing is by the 24th century there were many Klingons who were well aware that if it came to an all out war with the Federation that they would lose. Oh they would succeed for a bit but sooner rather than later Starfleet would rally and their generally superior technology would really begin to show. Hell we saw at the Battle of DS9 in Way of the Warrior what modern Federation weapons can do to Klingon ships with BoP's being obliterated by single torpedoes while at attack cruiser would break apart and explode after a phaser blast followed by a direct torpedo hit to the same section.

[@alanmike6883]

Worfs brother Said that too

[@luvthickgirls]

Going to disagree. TNG Yesterday's Enterprise Season 3 Episode 15 DS9 Crossover Season 2 Episode 23 Klingons were dominate force in ALPHA quadrant. Something unique happened in ST that allowed Federation and Klingons to ally. Otherwise Klingons would have conquered Earth and Federation a long time ago.

[@DenverStarkey]

@@luvthickgirls that's called plot armor. the klingons had plot armor in those instances. nothing trumps plot armor.

[@johnfisher9692]

Well said! An Empire that sneers and laughs at scientists and engineers is going to get steamrolled the first time they encounter a peer or near peer opponent who understands the vital role these professions play in high technology warfare. The ONLY reason the Federation does so badly is it is run by cowards and pansies who'd rather negotiate with people who just slaughtered millions of their citizens rather than actually kill the butchers responsible. Even when it is obvious you could/should be able to crush them easily. In times like that is be best to shove idiots like Picard into the children's corner and put those like Kirk in command.

[@icecold9511]

​@luvthickgirls Care to explain how that came about? Because the writers were rather vague on what made the klingons so effective. Given their inability before hand, the idea they thumped a militarized star fleet makes no sense.

[@jmbrosendo]

I really loved the Klingon Academy game. It actually made Klingons look like a real competent military.

[@MrPingn]

They had some good writers on it.

[@jacevicki]

I love that they played Klingon B&B (D&D) in Lower Decks as a reference to that game as well.

[@dymitchell]

That was a phenomenal game!

[@gabrielserrano5054]

More of an honest one unlike star fleet that hides its military as exploring space for science research.

[@daefaron]

​@@jacevickib&b means what i wonder. Battle and brawling?

[@thomriley1036]

The Klingons themselves seem to shift as a storytelling device. Their Trope-spirit begins in OST as a sort of "enemy race" stand-in for the Soviet Union. Later, in TNG they turn into this sort of Fremen/Kzinti "proud warrior race" parable, complete with heirloom knives and swords and messianic figures. Then, they seem to change again, but as some sort of cult. The common theme being that they fill whichever role that the current year writer wants them to fill; but always in relation to our heroes, The Federation and Starfleet.

[@noppornwongrassamee8941]

IIRC. TNG era Klingons being the :"honorable warrior race" is one of the first examples of ascended fanon. Basically, in Star Trek II (or a TOS episode, I forget which), the head Klingon mentioned something about "glorious battle", and fans spun that into a theory about how Klingons were a warrior race with an honor code and blah blah blah which then got turned into TNG's viking-esque Klingons. And the writers somehow missed the historical fact that people in real life kept talking about war being glorious until World War I.

[@enginerdy]

@@noppornwongrassamee8941bro.. people _still_ talk about war being glorious. It’s just that a lot fewer people are as easily convinced since photography was invented.

[@thomriley1036]

​@@noppornwongrassamee8941 Oh yeah, that sort of thing happens all the time. Star Trek has been around for so long, and with so many writers coming and going it's too easy for a few tropes to take over, if and when they suddenly gain popularity. With Dune being back on the big screen again, and everyone talking about The Monomyth and Jungian philosophical whatnots, that first season of TNG really seems to come into perspective. Different Trek identities have borrowed from lots of different sources. I already mentioned the Kzinti from Niven's Ringworld. They're literally in the Animated Series. The first Trek movie also bore striking thematic similarities to 2001: A Space Odyssey. I have a theory that, much like Star Wars, certain elements in The Next Generation (particularly the very first season) were heavily influenced by Frank Herbert's Dune. The Klingons are very Fremen. Geordi is a blind man who pilots the ship with metal eyes. Wesley is something of a young Kwizatz Haderach with a nigh-messianic potential. Q resembles the enigmatic Daniel & Marty when he traps the ship in that energy net thing. Early Ferengi are very Tleilaxu in their mannerisms and cultural misogyny. Tasha is something of a Fish Speaker archetype. Patrick Stewart had played Gurney Halleck in Lynch's 84 Dune movie... Later, we get cloned Kahless as the Klingon Messiah, and Famke Janssen plays a very Hwi Noree character in the episode "The Perfect Mate." The best example I have though is in "Final Mission" where Jean-Luc and Wesley crash on a desert planet and have to journey through the wasteland together, like all space heroes seem required to do.

[@rh906]

@@enginerdy That and most problems that led people to think that were solved. But it seems like we are re-inventing/re-introducing those, so I expect an increase in that way of thinking by the end of the century.

[@projektkobra2247]

Samurai bikers.

[@thefirstglancy1512]

Ultimately its basically down to the writers not having a clue how to write a competent militaristic society. The klingons have varied drastically in goofiness over the different series, but if you want actual capable klingons who employ tactics & strategy look no further than klingon academy. An obscure game from the pc it has christopher plumber reprise his role from star trek : the undiscovered country and those klingons could very easily take on the federation or anyone else and win.

[@BOBXFILES2374a]

If a race keeps fighting itself, it seems to be that it will get very, very good at fighting. Hm, that also applies to Earth.....

[@thefirstglancy1512]

Good point, and one that gets made in Klingon academy funnily enough. They describe humanity as a warrior culture full of promise who forsook their legacy when they became the federation. That's how they explain in their culture how the federation can produce "aberrations" like kirk. Like I say the writing in that game is very good.

[@daefaron]

Really it's just a lack of thought about logistics. Orcs in warcraft suffer the same thing of "only warrior is cool" It's why gw2 charr are amazing. A warrior military race that emphasizes that support roles are just as good and important and had an actual backing of farms, mines, lumber yards, etc.

[@robertaylor9218]

This is why Martok was such a game changer. Had he been able to culturally influence the Klingons they would’ve become a very serious threat to any body not allied (and in good standing) with them. Martok wasn’t just a fighter, he was a leader, and a companion. He was cool headed, and strategic, but still tough and eager in battle. He was such a good leader and strategist because he could be patient, he was very empathetic, and he thought several moves ahead. His empathy was the rarest quality, and I think his most valuable. Because it meant that he always knew what his troops needed, and because he could put himself in his opponent’s shoes.

[@Darthzilla99]

I love how he gives Garruk (spelling?) the highest respect for the fact that Garruk has to overcome his biggest fear (claustrophobia) in order to save everyone.

[@YoLo-bb2vc]

"the destruction of praxus turned a proud warrior race into the federation's pet targ!" thats a line i remember a high ranking klingon tell to worf once not sure if it was DS9 or a game but it is apt and accuarate.

[@DarthCalculus]

The origin of the Klingon myth with the Hurkh is really good. Makes the Klingons really sad

[@Slavir_Nabru]

It took the Federation 20 years to reach a stalemate with Cardassia, the Klingons had Cardassia on the ropes after just a few months. They held the line alone against the Jem'Hadar, Cardassians, and Breen while the UFP and Romulans were terrified of the Breen weapon. They have the best track record of all the Alpha/Beta powers.

[@rex290]

Well, the Federation-Cardassian conflict seems to have been a bunch of skirmishs as they colonized the same areas of space. Not a huge conflict. But you do have a point - the Klingons managed to do a huge amount of damage and pulled off a surprise attack right after the Cardassian military dictatorship got couped by the cardie dissidents. Even after Gowron threw away his chance by following the Defiant back to DS9 the Cardassians couldn't evict them from the territory they seized .

[@triptrip8353]

that's cause the federation didn't have the stomach to do what the Klingons did to the cardassians basically the Klingons bludgeon the cardassins to death

[@ProphetoftheMachines]

My interpretation is that the Cardassian "war" was the Federation fighting with one hand behind its back because there was no political will to finish the fight. Basically the Americans in Vietnam - the Federation could have leveled the Cardassian Union, but no Federation politician was willing to have that much blood on their hands, so they probably had strict rules of engagement (like no attacking Cardassian bases inside the Union proper, or no firing on ships without visually confirming their identity). So you get this 20 year half-assed quagmire with an unsatisfactory conclusion but no one cares because it's not their fight. Except guys like Captain Maxwell of the Phoenix, who suffered and bled in a war the politicians treated a sideshow, against an enemy much more dangerous than the politicians recognize. Enter the Klingons, who come in like a wrecking ball against the weak, fledging Cardassian civilian government. While their initial victories look impressive, the Klingons are never able to actually defeat Cardassia. Just like the Iran-Iraq war, Saddam's impressive-on-paper army wasn't able to defeat an Iranian military in post-revolutionary chaos. The Klingon commanders were likely too busy with internal politics and maintaining their positions to pursue an effective strategy against the Cardassians (remember that Dukat and Kira episode where the Klingons are going around attacking random bases and transports?), reminiscent how the politicized armies of Iraq (and most other authoritarian regimes - look at the Russians in Ukraine right now) were so wrought with backstabbing and squabbling over the control of resources that they can't function effectively. The war would have continued with a stalemate between the exhausted Cardassians and incompetent Klingons until an external factor changed the equation. That would be the Dominion. You can see the effects of a politicized military in season 7 of DS9 when the Klingons are holding the lines alone. Chancellor Gowron grows jealous of Martok's successes as a general and takes personal command of the war effort to shore up his reputation. The Klingon government has more in common with the ancient Roman or Persian imperial governments than it does with a modern state like the Federation, Romulan Empire, or even the Cardassian Union - let alone the Dominion! It's no wonder they can't actually win a war against a modern state. Even when they win every battle, the Klingons still lose the war.

[@rex290]

@@ProphetoftheMachines I like your take on it. Makes quite a bit of sense! I bet there would have been more interest in a permanent military solution if there were a group of important federation members on the cardassian border.

[@shiroamakusa8075]

The Cardassians at that time were in the middle of a political crisis that crippled their military and the Obsidian Order, their main order-enforcing body, had just been wiped out. Hardly a comparable situation.

[@MoonjumperReviews]

In fiction, it’s generally a given that every menacing foe will make a lot of noise, hurl a lot threats, maybe even kill a few victims whose names are not in the opening credits-but ultimately they will invariably have their backsides handed to them by the heroes almost every single time. It’s tradition that the bad guys will suck at being bad guys. 😎

[@RokkitGrrl]

Especially true for Star Trek since the Klingons were supposed to be analogs to the Soviet Union and the general mindset of Russian military strategy.

[@BOBXFILES2374a]

Otherwise, why watch the sci-fi movie?

[@jacevicki]

@@RokkitGrrl Considering the way the current Russian war is going, I guess the "Soviets actually suck at war" take was correct.

[@LordVader1094]

@@jacevicki The Soviets were not the Russians, and the Russians are not the Soviets. The USSR was an actual powerful global empire with a worthwhile military to back it up, Russia is about as far as one can get from that without falling below a global power.

[@wadewilson8303]

Oh man, I remember that "Star Trek Klingon" game on the old Windows 95 computers from when I was a teenager.

[@christiankalk4668]

I actually think it suits their whole philosophy to excel at Battle but be bad at War. Their history resulted in a culture that places huge value on individual heroism/glory, which would often run contrary to achieving large-scale victory, and incidentally contribute to centuries of non-stop internal conflict. By their metrics, the Federation style of waging war based on choosing their battles and large-scake logistics could be considered "cowardly" or "dishonourable" since the focus is not on individual battle prowess. In storytelling terms, it's a great way of maintaining an enemy who is threatening and terrifying without being OPto the point that we wonder how they haven't already conquered the entire galaxy.

[@KenoshiAkai]

I like that there's actually an explanation for the Klingons achieving space travel in that they were given a leg-up by an advanced civilization. Kind of like the Kzin. A lot like the Kzin. Because I had always had a hart time accepting that a people who were so barbaric and so focused on internal warfare could ever achieve spaceflight let alone FTL travel.

[@cane6074]

Their Expansionism may have been useful to them, providing a focus to generate unity as whole but also incentivizing loyalty for members of the ruling class because the benefits of conquest, such as land and loot as well as honor gained.

[@KenoshiAkai]

@@cane6074 Certainly. After someone got their barbaric asses into space.

[@DavidGarcia-kw4sf]

A very good point. Advanced civilizations are advanced because a significant portion of their population is doing things other than war. You must have a sizable economy and infrastructure to build a military force.

[@noppornwongrassamee8941]

Which makes the Klingons a prime example of why the Prime Directive is a good idea.

[@calebbarnhouse496]

Just so you are aware the reason we went to the moon can directly he tied to technology developed for ww2

[@src6339]

It's actually a trope in everything fiction. Any entities with a stew of being "great" at somthing are ultimately proven to suck at it, either through the "Worf effect" or a plot which demands that they loose in combination with writers unwilling or incapable of writing a resolution that requires the opposing faction to be truly exceptional. Also, since fiction tends to focus on spectical, the underlying expertise is never showcased, and the supposed "greatness" just comes off as posturing. Which from a meta sense, it is. 🤔

[@TalesOfWar]

Another classic trope is plot armour. The protagonist/s are only as strong as the writer needs them to be at any particular time. You're speeding about in a ship capable of decimating entire plants and taking an ungodly amount of damage, unless the plot dictates it must be disabled or overcome by something orders of magnitude weaker. Like the Duras sisters in Generations. Even without shields those torpedos should have been mostly shrugged off with the hull plating given how old that Bird of Prey and its weapon systems were. I guess in that situation lack of budget also teamed up with the writers lol.

[@walnic93]

Honestly after going into this with a grain of salt; I have to agree. I have rarely seen Klingons employ strategy in a fight. I mean star trek movie 6 maybe but the prototype bird of prey wasn't acting alone and was a pawn in a bigger plot that ultimately proved that the Klingons and federation are better together than at war

[@nitehawk86]

Worf is the only Klingon that uses strategy. He was trained by Starfleet, of course.

[@TheZamaron]

@@nitehawk86 Worf's advantage is that he's still a skilled warrior like most Klingons, but his rage is tempered, it takes a lot to make him lose control. With this he's got the sill needed to win many fights on the ground, yet tempered enough to first think something through. Meanwhile most Klingons are so battle focused very few like Martok see the bigger picture of a situation or use stretegy. Martok is a tactically minded Klingon, he does use stretegy when he needs to, most of the time when he didn't it was actually a changeling in disguise, or he had to follow the orders of a higher up like Gowron. Martok knows the Klingons are at thier best when working WITH allies like the Federation, I thin he knows the Klingons are often disadvantaged on tech and strategy, as most Klingons just care about how much glory the can get in battle, this often results in them rarely using strategy and blindly charging in. So yah, they're good warriors and great that they're always ready for a battle or war, and make a reliable ally if the Federation fights an enemy, but it also makes them hard to deal with and hard for them alone to win unless they have numbers on thier side.

[@russellmz]

in the tng finale the Klingons took out the romulans.

[@walnic93]

Lol the Klingon empire is the squirrel girl of the story... All their major victories are off screen

[@noppornwongrassamee8941]

@@nitehawk86 He was also raised by humans since childhood. He has a very human conception of what "honor" entails as a result even when he tries to live up to Klingon ideals.

[@markgoggin2014]

Good to see you back at the videos

[@Analog_Mind47]

I'd like to see a fantasy movie/series about the life of Kahless

[@liquidmark5081]

Klingons were like a race of space pirates, tbh.

[@lyvekis8824]

I think in the Kirk times the actually showed all the problems but also the cunning of the Klingons. They even had the new Warship that could fire cloaked which showed that there was progress under the right people.

[@mityace]

In some ways, your take on the Klingons makes them similar to Larry Niven's Kzinti. Their tactics are scream and leap. But, as the back cover on one anthology series said something like, "The reason humans learned to study ware no more is that they were very, very good at it."

[@vederianl9723]

I watched the Battle of Corvan 2 episode. Said to myself "These writers don't a bloody clue about war." That was the last time I watched Discovery.

[@Baldwin-iv445]

I wanna see the Klingons go to war with the Sangehelli from Halo. The curb stomp would be truly entertaining.

[@stephmaehder4155]

You’re so wrong. Klingons are masters of epic hair not seen since rock bands of yore.

[@micahottaway8455]

There are so many things required to support wars. Logistics requires a strong economy. Being able to fight in ever-changing environments requires education. Developing new weapons requires not only education but an ability to reverse engineer weapons used against you. Support for war requires propaganda at times as well (admittedly the Klingons have got this one down). A political entity also needs a well-fed populace. The warrior class in Klingon culture became the de-facto top class which negated many, many of the other parts required to wage war.

[@Mr_D_The_1st]

ah the klingon empire,the best faction cursed with being in a universe where a incredibly naive comunist distopia are the main characters.

[@scockery]

Dystopia? How? And it's not really communist. It's a post scarcity society, something we modern folk (and modern Trek writers) have trouble grasping. Clean energy, no poverty, little to no crime, a united under peace Earth with civil rights for everyone. What do people become when all their basic needs are met? The cynics and others would say lazy and hedonistic. The optimists say they devote their lives to exploring, bettering themselves, pursuing passions. Since Trek's vision is the latter...that's what the Federation is.

[@minimalbstolerance8113]

@brunolins12 Agree with everything you said, apart from one thing. The best faction IMO is the Dominion.

[@SweetSweetCandyBoyz]

Oh snap, we totally upscaled that DS9 Klingon attack scene to 1080p on our channel.

[@bluedotdinosaur]

To be brutally honest one of the smartest things ever done for the Klingons was Discovery strongly hinting that the Klingons as we know them are a fallen civilization - having come from an ancient, more unified age but broken apart into warring houses obsessed with trying to make the "warrior culture" work when it clearly does not. Interestingly, some of Discovery's writers were directly inspired by certain Star Trek Pocket Books novels from the 1980s - in which several veteran SF authors fleshed out Trek as it existed then. Most notable is the author John M. Ford who, across several novels, reasoned that the Klingon warrior culture was potentially very self-defeating. Ford had it that the Klingons had survived as long as they had, by the use of "client" species within Klingon space who did in fact make up a bulk of the empire's population. We hadn't seen them in TOS, the thought goes, because the Klingons treat them as second-class citizens who are not allowed to travel freely outside the Empire. And it was these "lesser" races as the Klingons viewed it, who were responsible for most of the civilian roles that actually keep a society functioning. The big twist in the Ford stories is that the Klingons are older than a lot of other civilizations realize. The Klingons we see in the 23rd century are the remnants of an ancient, extremely advanced civilization, with technology thousands of years beyond their contemporaries. Their focus on expansion through direct warfare and conquest of "lesser" species however, while initially quite effective at growing the empire, was a poison pill which eventually lead to a warrior culture that slowly self-destructs. This is where we come back to Discovery, and it directly and purposefully adopting ideas from some of these books. The notion of the major Klingon houses using flagships which had been passed down through families for centuries and they hadn't constructed themselves was a major nod to the literary idea of Klingons as a fading society of former advanced spacefarers.

[@Jeremy-83]

I thought Ezri Dax summed it up pretty well when she told Worf the Empire deserved to die

[@OldScratch81]

A d’k tahg would be pretty cool to have

[@odin1185]

The klingons do great the problem is they go against plot armor of main cast constantly and are used to show how strong a new enemy is by beating up the klingons.

[@BOBXFILES2374a]

Oh, I hate it when they go up against Plot Armor! I hate it when that happens!

[@robertbarrows6687]

Honestly I think the Klingon-Cardassian War was a better analogy on why Klingons are bad at war than the Klingon-Federation War from Discovery. The Klingon Empire had an ENORMOUS advantage over the Cardassians (higher industrial base, better ships, better 'warriors') and while they did well at the start of the war, the minute the Cardassians began using their advantages (home-field advantage, hit and run tactics, letting Klingons take non-vital territory) they began losing and losing so badly that they were stuck in a quagmire until the Dominion came in and kicked their asses.

[@crownprincesebastianjohano7069]

People overlook this and only talk about the initial Klingon successes. Well, of course the Klingons did well in the first 52 hours: They launched a surprise attack with an overwhelming first wave. Moreover, the Cardassian Fleet was mostly stationed in the area of the DMZ, which is about 15-20 light years away. It would take a few days to redeploy their fleet. But, as you say, once the initial shock was over, and the majority of the Cardassian Fleet redeployed, the Klingons were stopped cold and then stuck in a stalemate. Not only did they make little progress in a year, but the Cardassians had rebuilt a large portion of their fleet after their early losses in ships and were ready for an offensive by the time the Dominion arrived. It is not for nothing that the Klingons were pushed out in a day. The first Dominion convoy was only around 70 ships. That implies the Cardassians constituted the bulk of their offensive forces that day and had done a lot of groundwork prepping for an attack.

[@robertbarrows6687]

@@crownprincesebastianjohano7069 And it also shows how little the Federation thought of the Klingons during their own brief war. THe Federation was holding off Klingon Attacks while using second or third line fleets and was holding onto every colony the Klingons attacked. The Klingon Empire was truly written to be an USSR narrative in the 1960's and in hindsight, it became Russia in the 24th Century. A bloated, inefficient military writhe with corruption, tech that is 20 years behind its closest rivals (US and China for Russia, Federation and Romulan Star Empire for the Klingons), etc. Seriously how prophetic were the Deep Space Nine writers when they created the Klingon-Cardassian War, they made a direct parallel for the Russia-Ukrainian War! Thats on the level of Simpsons predictions!

[@bwg4608]

Wasn't the "quagmire" because Gowron specifically ordered the Klingons to stop advancing into Cardassian space? Here's the relevant line from the transcript for the episode Way of the Warrior: GOWRON: "Enough. Cease fire. Order our ships in Cardassian territory to halt their advance. I do not intend to hand victory to the Dominion." Prior to that the Klingons had broken through the Cardassian fleet and were just 52 hours away from Cardassia Prime itself. Again from the transcript from "Way of the Warrior" KIRA: Captain, we just got word from Bajoran Intelligence. The Klingons have broken through the Cardassian fleet. SISKO: How long before they reach Cardassia Prime? KIRA: Fifty two hours. And given that the situation was bleak enough that the Cardassian government felt the need to flee their homeworld, it certainly looks like the Klingons were decisively defeating the Cardassians until the Federation intervened and convinced Gowron to halt the advance.

[@grindcoreninja6527]

Thanks for telling me five days late KZbin. Edit: I personally find it hilarious how Starfleet seemingly loves putting children in danger by having them on their ships and strategic facilities.

[@bpdmf2798]

Go chart shave serve never been to buy bring these 400 kids with you.

[@Shadowkey392]

Honestly I think you’re underestimating the Klingons and the Federation. Because while both APPEAR to suck at war, we have seen how good they both get at it when they really get serious about it. It’s just that we don’t get to see enough of them being good at it. Case in point, in one episode (I forget the name), a squadron of Klingon ships is being pursued by a small but superior Jem’Hadar force. To allow the other ships to escape, Klingon Dahar master Korr takes a single bird of prey, drops back, emits a pulse to force the Jem’Hadar out of warp, and then single-handedly engages ALL of them at once and destroys or damaged enough of them that they break off their pursuit of the other Klingon vessels. The episode gives us a pretty good idea of how good Klingons are in a fight, and this gives us a pretty good notion of how good they actually are at war. I think that really the only reason we don’t get more of that is because we’re usually seeing them fight from the perspective of Starfleet, which is usually who we see the Klingons fighting against, and which is usually seen to win in the end. We’ve never seen things from the Klingons’ perspective.

[@bwg4608]

There's also the Klingon Civil War episode on STTNG where Kurn pulls off a pretty slick manuever, going to warp near a sun that induces solar flares to destroy two pursuing enemy warships.

[@marckrause1027]

I'd be interested in seeing a full 6h video about the Klingons sucking at everything.

[@morgant.dulaman8733]

Personally, and I admit I'm saying this as a more tertiary viewer as far as DS9 and Star Trek at large is concerned, I would like to see the post-DS9 Klingon empire be forced into a Tukkayid situation alle Battletech: Have them face a proper force, possibly the Romulans or even a proper Federation fleet and *army* formed after the Dominion war and willing to use both pragmatic tactics and deal with heavy attrition to win a fight. Drag them into one location and provoke different commanders into getting aggressive and forgo a larger tactical advantage in favor of trying to win personal honor by baiting each one with something that looks like a glorious prize that's just within reach. Only when they're overreaching do you butcher them peacemeal.

[@Acc0rd79]

6 hours you say... whelp I'm gonna need to preorder pizzas and popcorn.

[@Jestersage]

Recently I posted my theory on Klingon Honor in Daystorm Subreddit; in that, I proposed that it feels weird/contradictory (assuming UT didn't translated it wrong), because due to meta origin of making them "Samurai in Space", the producers borrowed the Samurai Honor... which even knowing Edo era feels off; and I proposed that's because Klingon's Honor is basically "Face"/Mianzi of Chinese, and if you replace 1-to-1 anytime they bring up Honor with "Face", you will find "Klingon Honor" do not have contradiction. Wondering if that is correct? And whether you will do your own analysis of Klingon Honor and its seemingly contradictory nature?

[@Choalith_Ikanthe]

That's actually shockingly accurate. It's not honor in the sense of what is right and wrong, but it is definitely a sense of compliance. Ritual justification, not personal validation.

[@nekophht]

I tend to think of Klingon Honor as along the lines of Imperial Japan's "honor" system. You know, the one where it's shameful to admit a military objective is impossible to achieve, so let's throw away lives and material dying gloriously attempting to complete the task. The one where I don't think Japan ever actually declared war before militarily striking the enemy (Pearl was meant to be after breaking off diplomatic negotiation, not after declaring war), unless they created some incredibly bad level pretext to justify things (Invasion of Manchuria, Second Sino-Chinese War). I mean, that last part alone solves the issue of "if they're honorable, why do they like to do sneak attacks with cloaking devices?"

[@Jestersage]

@@nekophht Oof. As it turns out, Japanese does have the exact same thing: "mentsu"... which also translate to "Face" Search for saipantribute's "Mianzi, mentsu, chemyon" for their take, which I think is accurate. In particular, this quote sounds familiar: "Truth is often sacrificed at the altar of face, the worst consequence of the “face” game. Social status becomes the be-all and the end-all regardless of what is real. Authenticity is shelved; reality is shrouded with incense. Delusions of grandeur get the Amen!" replace face with honor...

[@planguy9575]

Klingon honor is very much "Face". It is reputation. But they are not ignorant of the concept of Honor as a concept of right and wrong. Klingon spirituality and religion often deal with that concept of Honor. It's probably why in so many future versions of Worf becomes involved in Klingon religion.

[@enginerdy]

I think there’s some intentional aspect of this in the writing. If you look at the history of Japan pre- and during WWII, the honor-driven war hawks dominated politics. They created and subsequently overextended the empire which resulted in the decimation of most of the armed forces and eventually led to three cities being leveled. The Klingons are, to a large degree, “what happens when you take a terrible idea and make it a deeply-ingrained, permanent cultural feature?” The Japanese pivoted away from the war hawks and moved on to a better future. The Klingons can’t. More directly to OP’s point, I don’t think the writers probably had that kind of nuanced view of Asian culture though, coming from an American perspective, which understands these concepts broadly but not as distinctly different.

[@jayx4996]

Canon wise it is fairly well summed up when it shows Picard's trophy room as a Terran. Without federation limitations or rules, humans had wiped out every other race with ease.

[@skullkrusher4078]

The fact that they have the bat'leth as a weapon proves that they aren't really the warriors they portray themselves as.

[@MichaelDeMaria-ur5jx]

The Klingons are like the Hulk…point them in the right direction at the right time and turn them loose.

[@chapmje]

Klingons are a prime example of the fundamental difference between fighting and war.

[@I.Simmonds]

The true klingon strength is coriographed dancing and singing. 😅

[@Hockey_G]

I was thinking about this the other day after I saw the DS9 episode where they destroyed a Dominion shipyard so Dax could get into Stovokor. Klingons arrive cloaked and then win because the enemy is unprepared. Is that a glorious battle?

[@BioGoji-zm5ph]

"Sometimes... honor means winning by any means possible." - Worf.

[@russellmz]

a couple dozen guys in 1 bop blew up entire fleets (or near an entire fleet size). as glorious as the st naizaire raid.

[@u9vata]

Glory does not mean you need to be dumb. Actually the best way to win a glorious battle against overpowered foes is to outsmart them somehow.... This is not alien to klingon culture for them having cloaking device on nearly every ship and highly preferring hit&run attacks! Btw the same episode they inform you that 3-4 or 5 actions already tried to destroy these shipyards and they all died... so it was a well defended place. In a way this is very comparable to battle of pozsony (Pozsonyi csata) where Hungarians fought unified western army and defeated them by splitting the army using hit&run and starvation tactics, then in the decisive battle kill out one of the columns on one side of the danube, then the same night swim through the river with horses to attack the other camp in the night - which they never expected that an army that fought through the day will ever attempt - so they were very unprepared... Also similar tactic was to "make a fake runaway / fleeing". This had double reason: if some part of the army really runs away, the whole will only think "oh its just a fake runaway so they lure the enemy into a trap" so it is morale boosting - but then if the enemy follows they could unleash firing arrows backwards while riding - which was unknown skill at the time - and from the sides new armies appear for encircling the enemy... Winning over a foe with superious numbers like that we also considered glorious and would be dumb to not outsmart them if you can. So the same way of thinking for Klingons... Then however killing a ferengi who disarms himself - but weak anyways even if tries to defend.... that is not having honour and glory. Glory is about doing something with someone strong - for that you can use trickery... using up the opportunity to more easily kill someone who you could have very easily do in direct fight? That is not glorious. Its weird people not get this... Maybe those people who not get this are from different cultural background and think any trickery is about 200% opportunistic behaviour - but the glory does not come from the fact you do (or you restrain from) some tricks... but that you defeated someone much stronger through tricks, or agility or manouvers etc... actually for real big victories some amount of trickery is mandatory otherwise you cannot win against superior foe isn't it? Tactics, precision etc. also falls under the same umbrella. If you want not scythian-style nomadic medieval warfare examples or not familiar - you can also think of Thermopulai battle of spartans: they did not go open field battle, but choose to defend the mountain passing. Was it not honourable that they tried to hold as long as possible? It was honourable of course and said to be. Should they not use the mountain passing choke point and go back out to the fields for open battle and die much easier? Of course it would be dumb and not more honourable! What they did was honourable because they all died? It elavates that - but the main part is fighting with the highly superior foe outnumbered for a purpose. I hope its understandable.

[@planguy9575]

There is no greater honor then victory.

[@shiroamakusa8075]

@@u9vataExcept that's exactly how Romulans think and fight and thats always presented as being shady and cowardly. If a cloaked Romulan warship had blown up Klingon shipyards, it would have been seen as a craven act, not as some sort of honorable victory.

[@TheByteknight]

In the mid-80s before TNG aired, the prevailing fan idea of Klingons was pushed by a role playing company, FASA, which based the Klingons on the Star Trek novel The Final Reflection. Those Klingons were master tacticians and very clever, complete with "Thought-Admirals. When TNG aired though in 1987, I was horrified to see the Klingons now being depicted as Viking-Samurai-Biker buffoons.

[@jamesgravil9162]

"The Klingon Empire has existed in an almost constant state of strife, pain, endurance and, well, war for their entire existence." A bit like the American Empire!

[@patrickstewart3446]

I’m beginning to think the only things keeping the Romulan from overrunning the Klingons are Starfleet meddling and their Star blowing up. 😁

[@thanqualthehighseer]

so really it comes down to who's Dumber the Federation or the Klingons.

[@spacemanspiff3052]

Great essay. Both very funny and rings true.

[@ethanmoon3925]

Like Vikings, they don't actually create a great civilization, but they change history by causing a great impact on any culture they encounter. As enemies and as allies, they made the Federation much stronger.

[@ryanvannice7878]

The Klingons are like Tackleberry from the Police Academy movies or Dwight from The Office, with a attack first/shoot first solution to any conflict.

[@MackeyDeez]

Honestly, I could never understand why the Klingons even have an empire. They're so, one track minded.

[@ldl1477]

In WW2, the Japanese had one word to mean both Tactics and Strategy. The Klingons seem to suffer a similar fate, exceptional at Tactics, but forgetting large scale Strategy. Before Pearl Harbor, Admiral Yamamoto declared something along the lines of, 'we (Japanese) will run unchecked through the Pacific for the first 6 months, but end up losing the war.' And that's what happened to the IJN, 6 months of Victories, then pyrrhic victory, then lost battles, and finally defeat to the economically and technologically superior Americans. Sounds a lot like the Klingons -vs- Federation.

[@jamesp8164]

You're on point here. Klingons are good in a fight but are hopeless at winning an actual war. I almost feel like the only really well rounded, competent Klingons we saw was as they were presented in ST 6: The Undiscovered Country. They were more than just space vikings that wanted to smash everything in front of them. The movie managed to portray them as having a well rounded culture while still keeping their warrior ethos.

[@Lyze]

Yeah, Klingon problem is everyone wants to die in glorious battle and they are exceedingly good at it.

[@beepboop204]

just like the Spartans of history

[@Noms_Chompsky]

IKR, like they got one over on Athens once with their Persian financing but then they just got kicked around by all the other city-states. THIS IS DURASSSSSSSSSSS!

[@beepboop204]

@@Noms_Chompsky when your reputation from 300 years ago still proceeds you.... thats a quality brand, until of course, it isnt anymore

[@Noms_Chompsky]

@@beepboop204 Yup, there are people to this day who will tell you the Earth is flat.

[@beepboop204]

@@Noms_Chompsky i personally LOVE people who reject modern scientific atheism, while readily accepting all the byproducts of a modern scientific atheist society like iphones and internet and all that. almost as much as i love people who say "Ukraine has a na zi problem" but also get mad if you say "America has a racism problem"

[@Noms_Chompsky]

@@beepboop204 Well, love is always wise and hatred is always foolish, but those peeps makes me nervous. They do crazy things like fly planes into the Pentagon and storm the Capitol Building looking to hang the Vice President when things don't turn out to be as small and simple as they long for in their fantasies.

[@markouellette8973]

Canonically, most of the Klingon's victories were against technologically inferior foes. We don't see it much in the series, but they had a number of "Client Races" they had conquered and incorporated into the Empire.

[@BOBXFILES2374a]

Right. It said somewhere that these slaves would operate the unshielded reactors in Engineering.....

[@sundoga4961]

The Klingons aspire so heavily to their ideal of what a warrior should be, they forget about the ancillary aspects. There ARE exceptions - General Martok is a superior strategist, and Gowron, for all his flaws, an excellent politician - but too many of them just seek to have their name written in glorious battle. They lose their sense of grand strategy, sometimes even of basic tactics, in their lust for personal glory.

[@conservativecatholic9030]

I think the Klingons did some curb stomping of the Cardassians before the Dominion got involved.

[@paulscott2037]

The Klingons did have some hope late in the 23rd Century when Gorkon was chancellor and I mean even General Chang and Captains Kang, Koloth and Kor were great strategists. It would seem that Kronos was on the verge of a golden age where they had moved beyond their feudal past and could strive forth as a united civilisation, right up until Praxis explodes and basically brings them crashing back down to where they were at the start of the 23rd Century.

[@AdmiralJT]

The Klingons are always just one double fist back blow away from defeat lmao

[@freeranger00]

The Klingons are a classic illustration of the difference between warriors and soldiers. Warriors are great at fighting and can be a massive benefit to a war effort if led by someone of vision and strength to keep them in line. Soldiers have discipline, are probably less individually impressive, but understand the need for tactics and strategy. Soldiers tend to win wars while warriors can sometimes turn battles.

[@58jharris]

Switching from warriors to soldiers is why the European powers came to dominate the world during the Age of Exploration and its aftermath.

[@wood9670]

The Cardasian-Klingon Alliance from the Mirror Universe were formidable.

[@DocWolph]

An good storyline for the Klingons would be to have the Clone of Kahless, seeing what is going on, and taking Worf, probably the most soldierly warrior of the all living Klingons, and starts to conquer the Klingon Empire. Kahless uses real tactic and strategy, effortlessly winning, until he finally prevails. Basically doing everything a competent warlord would do.

[@jasondiend4248]

The clone of Kahless lacks any of the real Kahless battle tactics and strategy. He was raised by religious zealots who raised him on the myth of Kahless rather than making him into Kahless with tactic training and real knowledge of battle.

[@DocWolph]

​@@jasondiend4248 It is important to remember that Kahless the Unforgettable was not a general. It is more like he was a messianic figure in Klingon history. The kind of figure a religion would be built around. Few Klingons seem to get any real military officers training, so Clone Kahless could just take some lessons from almost anyone, the Federation, worked for Worf. It would not be much of a stretch for Clone Kahless to become a powerful and near unbeatable, by other klingons, warlord. Just so long as he does not get too hung up winning one-on-one fights. But what would be more interesting is if Clone Kahless sired a son who took it that He was the real successor of Kahless, and worked to become the Warlord who took the Empire. The stories of this scion growing up into said Warlord, and then his campaigns, that would be awesome, as well.

[@emperorsean1]

Kahless came up with the whole klingon culture and way of life that they adopted as their religion.

[@davidanttila9305]

In large part you can also look at the Klingon Empire Command structure. Basically, the Klingon Chancellor has the least authority, and for the Klingon Empire to do basically anything requires every house to agree to it. That's why in battle, each one boils down to the tactical decision. Okay, let's toss a fleet at the problem with no real tactics involved whatsoever. Heck, Star Trek writers and the studio got so caught up chasing Star Wars action scenes that Starfleet, the very faction who was on paper, was meant to have the fewest ships out of everyone else and meant to be completely dependent on tactics and strategy ended up falling to the same trope. Okay, let's toss ships at the problem as well. Here's how few ships Star Fleet was meant to have 8 Galaxy Class ships, and that is it.

[@pelegsap]

I never really understood how come cloaking devices not considered "cowardly" or "unhonorable" to Klingons.

[@HawkGTboy]

The Klingons did successfully wage a war against the Cardassians in DS9.

[@blockmasterscott]

Man, I wish could argue with this. But the truth is the truth.

[@meyatetana2973]

They say they love war, never said they were good at it.

[@stephencodekas3745]

Honestly, was thinking recently if we have to do a prequel or anything I would love a Trilogy on kahless and lucara, overthrow of the hurq and creation of an empire

[@nomnomgoblin8901]

Honestly the Klingons should be in a pretty solid point at the end of the Dominion war. I mean they like everyone lost people but they glorify death in battle so not a morale loss. The federation are going to be dealing with the scars for a while morally speaking while the Klingons are probably getting right back to work. They walked away with planets they took from Cardassia and with their history of pilfering things from their enemies, there were already Jem'hadar weapons on Martok's ship for training, their anti-coagulation blasters and personal cloak tech would be another boon. Also now that Martok is in charge they have a leader who is less concerned about the house politics and wants to actually help his people, and he doesn't just jump blind into fights for some nebulous shouting of honor. In the klingon corebook of the TTRPG it says he's been cutting through the red tape of klingon bureaucracy but obviously not a canon source. Gowron was an angry dog who sometimes made good maneuvers but most often just decided to bark at things, Martok is somebody who knows the value of things beyond just war. Meanwhile their rivals have kind of declined with the federation's stagnation before their return to exploration and the romulans losing their central government and later their planet. Their past is a mess but the Klingons have a strong potential future if we were to get literally any solid lore with them after the end of DS9 chronologically, I'd love to see them in the time of Lower Decks or Picard/Legacy to show how things have changed for them, all we really get is well, Worf. SNW is giving us more klingon stuff which is cool at least.

[@DYrahcaz91]

I mean, I'd watch that 6+ hour Klingon war documentary

[@scockery]

"He said 'Today is a good day to die.' in a Klingon dialect so obscure that the universal translator didn't translate it."

[@georgekeith6468]

For Klingons if they don't die in battle, they whole life is wasted. So poetically, they are willing to waste they life in battle.

[@Rerpesentz]

1:30 when lore is talking about the race that invaded the klingons. as far as i knew it was the breen who battle hardened the Klingons pre OG series

[@Alastair_]

A good example of this is Khorne from 40k. In one that one book I've read they say fighting against Khorne forces is quite easy as they're predictable and therefore can be manipulated, this is very much like the Klingons I think.

[@Analog_Mind47]

5:08 that has more to do with the writting than being consistent with previous cannon

[@Darthjardius]

This is a much better title than the original one, Klingons: The Alien Trash Of The Galaxy. Thanks Admiral Cartwright, do better.

[@malgremor85]

If we ever reach the stars, we'll BE the Klingons.

[@conroypaw]

In the alternate timeline from TNG episode "Yesterday's Enterprise" (S3E15), the war for the Federation was going badly. Far worse than was generally known. Central command estimated that defeat was inevitable within months. THAT Klingon Empire which sucks at war? Wow. The Federation must suck that much harder.

[@wesxander4329]

Federation can't beat them in war yet can handle the Borg and Dominion. Speaks volume about the Klingons.

[@besaidknight]

It's so true, the only group that's worst at war would be the Federation XD How do the Klingons keep beating the Federation when a main character isn't involved? Once a Main Char shows up, the Federation pulls a 180 on war efforts and wins. x.X;

[@Valpo2004]

Their society seems so fractured and factionalized that it is probably hard to coordinate them to win a war. I mean imagine telling one group of Klingons they are going to draw out the enemy into battle while another smaller group you want them to come in while the enemy is busy with the first group and destroy some logistics. The second group would probably feel cheated out of the glory of battle that they would refuse. So it makes some sense given their culture and factional society that the only strategy they have is brute force.

[@cryptohivemind205]

@LoreReloaded did you ever do a response to Venom geeks video about you on the bejor fighter ships???

[@milkcookies7753]

Lore reloaded got roasted by VENOMGEEK not sure if he ever did a video response 🤔

[@kingpin7666]

All this and the federations refusal to actually have an army and Marine Corps.

[@casbot71]

The Klingons winning in _Yesterday's Enterprise_ makes sense if it *was all a Romulan plot.* The pivotal change was that the Federation didn't save Nerenda III from Romulans (leaving the Romulan ships to have enough time to alter any evidence as well - but that's not necessary), _and_ that the Durras family would have still been held in high regard and have political influence in the High Council. The _politically suppressed_ fact that it was a Durras who was the traitor at Khitomer might never have become known by anyone in the High Council in the first place, so their prestige within the Council would be unimpeachable. The Romulans could have used the Durras's to call for war with the Federation, and without the heroic sacrifice of the Enterprise C the call would have been heeded. And during the War the Romulans helped the Klingons with logistical help and more importantly with *strategic advice and intelligence* provided directly to the Durras's, to help cement their power within the Klingon Empire as great leaders. Starfleet would not be on the lookout for Romulan agents _disguised as Vulcans_ within the Starfleet Bureaucracy and planning/Intel departments. And battle plans could have been devised by Romulan military _professionals_ and then passed off as coming from the Durras's - just like in the Prime timeline during the Klingon civil war. [What if the first action of the War was a devastating surprise attack on Starfleet facilities deep within Federation lines using a cloaked fleet?] With the Federation defeated the Klingons become easy pickings for sabotage and subterfuge by the Romulans and either fall into civil war or become a puppet state without even knowing their (new) High Chancellor is working for the Romulans. The only thing that could prevent such a outcome for that timeline (/alternate reality) would be for Starfleet _(by using a ship fitted with plot armour)_ to aquire irrefutable *proof* that it was all a Romulan plot and that they also planned to do the Klingons afterwards. I wonder what Garrack is up to in this timeline??

[@JAGtheTrekkieGEMINI1701]

Dude do you REALLY think the Klingons would ally with the Romulans against Starfleet even though the Narendra 3 incident was *Known* through the Empire...? Impossible

[@casbot71]

​@JAGtheTrekkieGEMINI1701 *No,* I think it would be like the _Klingon Civil War_ in the Prime Timeline, where the Romulans give help to the Durras's who then act as the conduit. So it appears to be coming from a Noble and Trusted Klingon Great House. They get the Federation Intel from Romulan spies, and maybe even battleplans drawn up by less glory obsessed but more pragmatic Romulan strategist. Then, the Durras's act on that knowledge. The Durras's may also be able to field a substantial fleet if the Romulans can smuggle vital resources to them and prehaps even manufacturer equipment that could pass for Klingon to give the House of Durras's shipbuilding program a boost - whatever components or minerals are usually the bottleneck. It's similar to what the Founders _tried_ to do in the Klingon Federation War that proceeded the Dominion War, except that was just about having both sides lose (and having Changeling Martok as High Chancellor).

[@timo191]

It is the Klingon government that undermines any strategic goals (Galron undermining his best General for instance) But the KDF was able to keep the Dominion from wiping out the Alpha quadrant after the Breen weapon came on the stage.

[@BullGator-kd6ge]

*Gowron

[@triptrip8353]

right i feel like the Klingons are given a bad rap lol, from star trek 6 all the way up until the death of Gowron we see nothing but infighting and back stabbing in the Klingon government witch i think is large part of the reason they kind of don't have a war strategy. I mean for a race to not have a war strategy , to came close to defeating the Cardassians while at the same time fighting the federation and was the real only reason the federation alliance won the Dominion war also side note The dominion would completely destroy the dam Borg lol yall are crazy

[@stepal6958]

Yeah, I was going to point this out too. They were basically holding the Dominion back solo for a while. There was also an episode where the Romulans were complaining about the Klingons getting ships repaired before the Romulan ships and it was mentioned the Klingon ships were usually the most damaged because they fought longer and harder in battles. In another episode they mention that the empire will take a decade or two to recover after the war due to them fighting so hard.

[@Phoenixesper1]

"They were always a savage barbaric race...." No. Only over the last several hundred years has this been true. This was confirmed in enterprise when archer was held prisoner in a klingon prison, where another Klingon, not of the warrior class, a scholar, revealed that The klingon people were once artists, scholars, explorers much like the humans were, that conquest was not a ritual act, but a means of securing themselves after their enslavement 1000 years prior. But that at some point within recent time, (say several centuries) the warrior class took over and dominated their society. This is supported by the fact that from the Archer saga onward, Klingon society rapidly regresses versus the other races of the alpha beta quadrant. Their technology stagnants, their government rots from the inside out, their code of honor almost vanishes in 3 generations, ad their ability to engage in trade and even warfare falls apart. They succumb to infighting, civil war and destitution as a species, using the engine of war as the only economy to keep moving forward. We also see this with Cardassians but their society was still functional, their arts, philosophy and greater hierarchies were intact. Klingons devolved into mindless barbarism and fuedility over the course of the star trek saga. When Archer meets them, their are still Klingons alive who remember what Q'nos was like before the warriors took over. By the time of Picard, Klingon society is effectively a corpse.

[@NERV_Mars]

Klingons took out the Enterprise twice. Give them that much respect.

[@sirhenry9313]

The Klingons are not good at war. They are aggressive, yes. Militant, yes. Feudalistic, yes. They thrive in *battle,* yes. But not war. 100% agree.

[@triptrip8353]

I mean they came with in ear shot of conquering the Cardassians, and Gowron was going to hand the Alpha quadrant to the Dominion just to make Martok look bad.

[@darthbloodborn]

I never really thought about it before if the Klingons saw honour in things other then battle they would be a force to reckon with

[@jeffglenn7609]

Yep. Fashioned after samurai. Honor above all else, dying, in battle is very honorable 😮