The Last Messiah: Salvation Through Extinction

A brief discussion of Peter Wessel Zapffe's classic philosophical essay The Last Messiah, a bleak analysis of the human condition, and an important work in the development of antinatalism.
#philosophy #essay #antinatalism #pessimism

[@watkins7086]

The Last Messiah is my favorite philososophical work. And Im always happy to hear other peoples take on it

[@TH3F4LC0Nx]

Thnx for watching! Very interesting essay. Excellent starting point I would say for the exploration of philosophical pessimism. :)

[@kalki0273]

When it comes to consciousness, I really envy my potted cactus house plant.

[@TH3F4LC0Nx]

One could argue that plants - anything living, really - have at least some form of rudimentary consciousness. They do respond to their environment and other stimuli.

[@almari3954]

"consciousness is the point of nature", what do you mean by that?

[@TH3F4LC0Nx]

Consciousness is necessary for meaning and valuation. Without a creature of appreciable consciousness, there's no point to anything. It should not be thought, as Zapffe and Ligotti thought, that consciousness is an accident of nature. It is no accident. See the Anthropic Principle. The universe is fine tuned for just such a potentiality as the human mind. Because it needs it. The universe was made, but Man had to then be made to validify it. If you wanna go deeper, there are exceptionally interesting arguments to be made for panpsychism - the assertion that consciousness is actually sine qua non in the universe. And of course we can go even further into Transcendental Idealism and say that without a mind to perceive it, the universe doesn't really exist at all. If all this sounds of interest to you, even if only in an insane way, stay tuned for the book I've been writing that I mentioned, which is what I even read this essay for. It'll be wild. :D

[@almari3954]

@@TH3F4LC0Nx Ah, okay, so you mean the usual new age bulshit... "Non-duality", "we are all one", "consciousness is just universe experiencing itself". Really? ISIS drilling holes in children heads is also "universe experiencing itself"? Give me a break... The need for meaning is an additional and artificial need. More needs equals more suffering.

[@almari3954]

Also, Anthropic Principle is a fallacy in my opinion. We have a need to feel important, so we invent stories. No different than any other religion.

[@TH3F4LC0Nx]

@@almari3954 I did used to feel that way, but I sorta swung to the other side over time. Mind you, when I say Anthropic Principle, I'm not necessarily arguing that humans, per se, were inevitable, but rather just that some form of reasonably high intelligence needed to be. I think things require a means for recognition. A universe without life would be a null universe. So I tend to disagree with Zapffe and Ligotti that consciousness is just an accident. I think it's actually quite crucial to, well, everything.

[@almari3954]

@@TH3F4LC0Nx okay, fair enough, but in my opinion "consciousness is the point of nature", or "consciousnes is crucial to everything" doesn't actually say, or explain anything. Just religious thinking in disguise. The need for religion stems from fear of death.

[@JamesEdwardTracy]

I was just about to challenge you on whether consciousness was a good thing or not, particularly by using the anthropic principle as an argument. But I see that you are tending towards panpsychism which is certainly an interesting off-ramp to take. I don't take the anthropic principle as being important, merely that our biology is guided by the settings of the universe. If anything it shows just how haphazard and chaotic our existence is. I remember the anthropic principle being quite exciting the first time I heard about it, and I thought that it just might be an argument that could withstand the rigor of philosophical analysis. But I have since abandoned that point of view. Kind of like walking in the rain and saying that the entire universe conspired such that one particular raindrop happened to hit your head and using that as an argument for why things were set up in that way. To me it's kind of putting the cart before the horse. It does sound, initially, exciting. In the same way that Marxism sounds great. But in practice, not so good. LOL Great content though! I enjoy your channel and just happened upon it. I will keep an eye out for your book, that sounds like it could be most interesting. I'm a 67-year-old Caucasian male living in Sacramento California, retired software engineer. Oh yeah and yes, I have read Bugatti and in particular David benatar plus the works of Richard Dawkins, etc. On whether life is an accident or not, you would have to ask if it's an accident from whose point of view? In other words it's an accident as judged by whom? All in all I see it as just random chemical operations, and in particular for life, we are just puppets of the gene pool. For about the last 2 years I have been getting red pill via the manosphere and doing a deep dive into intergender Dynamics. Talk about pessimistic! It really is amazing that people don't self terminate. But then what we have evolved so many illusions to put between us and that outcome. Fascinating stuff!

[@TH3F4LC0Nx]

I do think panpsychism is, if nothing else, worthy of consideration. I wouldn't say that I think that the universe conspired to create humans specifically, necessarily. Rather I just think that some form of consciousness was inevitable. (Possibly because everything might possess some very small conscious potential.) Really I guess I fall back on the old subject/object dilemma. I suppose I would say that to be means to be perceived. I totally recognize that that's a highly arguable point, however, I really do believe that a universe without an observer is effectively no universe at all. Thnx for watching! :)

[@shockwave2617]

Could you read anything by Julius Evola in the future?

[@TH3F4LC0Nx]

Oh wow, now there's a controversial thinker! XD Then again, nothing generates views like controversy. I'll see what I can do... 🤔

[@antinatalope]

Or as I say, 'be fruitful and multiply... by zero'. Perfectly good math, there. Zapffe is a good start, but my new philosophical love is Julio Cabrera.

[@TH3F4LC0Nx]

I'll have to check out Cabrera. :)

[@antinatalope]

@@TH3F4LC0Nx Some is translated into English. If you can read Portuguese or Spanish, even better.

[@antinatalope]

@timoseckas3044 I tend to disagree with Cabrera on that.

[@TH3F4LC0Nx]

@timoseckas3044 Sounds like a fascinating read! I may have to give a look sometime. ;)

[@dustinneely]

Just finished reading this crock of sh*t. Lord have mercy.

[@TH3F4LC0Nx]

Well, that's one reaction to it! XD