THE LEDGE TRUMP EXPLOIT

In Smash Ultimate, Collision Boxes exist when you hang on the ledge, even when invulnerable. In this video, I explain how this affects the meta.
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BACK TO THE LAB AGAIN!
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[@GimR]

Did y'all also notice it's really hard to trump people quickly?

[@atari9477]

Yes...especially online...

[@aperfectcreation]

Actually yes, but I've been using Sticky Ledge Run to make trumping easier: twitter.com/aperfectcreatio/status/1257702731260796928?s=19

[@divade]

Bowser Jr has a very hard time with the quick fastfall timing. I think DK and WFT have trouble with it as well.

[@dagingerbreadman70]

I noticed SDing constantly with ICs when going for it. Traumatized me away from even attempting it

[@pvponlink7712]

I one time ledge attacked the same time hitting Wolfs down smash as robin and it traded and i died......

[@happycamperds9917]

I feel like one of the clunkier parts of this game is when you “stick” to a platform when you try to run off of ledges.

[@chrispo7610]

Probably the most clunky, annoying part

[@dubudubu2442]

Yeah platforms suck

[@themlgbrosftw4960]

@@dubudubu2442 in a platform figher :c sucks

[@poopheadtwenty-seven540]

It's so clunky and annoying. Not to mention it prevents platform cancels, which were one of the coolest techs from the older games. edit: I meant *edge cancels*, not platform cancels. My bad.

[@simplerabbit2186]

the DevName for runnign off is called RunFall you only RunFall if you are on the edge, No Fsmash buffered and holding forward. so if you just tap forward, you'll dash edge.. you need to hold forward to RunFall.

[@pouks]

here's a tip: when you try to ledgetrump, always input jump while doing it so that if you do it successfully, the jump won't come out because of grabbing lag, but if you miss it, you'll instantly jump and come back to stage, so there's not rly any risk taken trying to get the ledgetrump

[@poncholuna123]

Can someone translate this for me in spanish?

[@Slivr]

@@poncholuna123 google translate?

[@barbarictearemedy]

This could potentially buffer jump from ledge online.

[@fernandobanda5734]

@@poncholuna123 El consejo es presionar salto luego de hacer el gesto para ledge trump. Si te sale el ledge trump, no saltarás por la animación de colgarte. Si no te sale, saltarás de inmediato y puedes volver al stage evitando mucho riesgo.

[@poncholuna123]

@@fernandobanda5734 Muchas gracias Fer!

[@vyq6014]

omg this makes so much sense now wtf!!!! Ty gimr!!! I was practicing mad trumps because it was so frustrating to never get them in tournament and miss crucial kills... but i never tested against characters hanging there zzzzz

[@z-past1454]

Beefy mate?

[@rowdyfella6672]

QB for Duelist Pro but instead of Snake and C4 you have a whole bunch of ledges to grab and it turns into a ledgetrump battle

[@colbyhazlewood9398]

Stay beefy vyQ

[@zone9828]

Explains how Leo is so good at ledge trumping in bracket.

[@karlcossaboon7072]

he seems to do it more with lucina than joker it seems tho but lucina probably has it easy too I have no idea and also hes leo so... yeah

[@liamcoulter9627]

How much you wanna bet he knows about these differences already lol

[@n13475]

@@liamcoulter9627 I can beat him

[@joey-js9pr]

@@n13475 lmao

[@AshBlossomWorshiper]

I've never sat through the outro. And now i have to do it every time. I love the outro so much XD

[@cyfer115]

He better keep the outro in all his videos because I need it like I need air 😂

[@Cypress1600]

Fake fan

[@alexyanez8033]

Fake fan then

[@finnmonaghan4812]

Hussein Rizk I’m sorry what? I don’t understand why the word love is related to your sexuality and why you seem to think that’s funny

[@Miitsu222]

Ew why does this have so many likes. Yall are whack

[@er5624]

We are blessed that we have Gimr, did not know this lol

[@Holl0w0]

As a Mario main, thanks for pointing this out, il stick to run off cape.

[@PHYTO18432]

Let me guess the solution: dash to ledge > pivot skid right before the very end > hold left joystick towards offstage > runoff animation cancelled with zero momentum > now you can trump pacman. Or roll to edge > same thing as above. Or dash grab. All these work for me when trumping pacman. Also dash attack but to a lesser degree

[@captanblue]

Sweet, in other words, I should go back to playing Mario.

[@JTPlayzGamesMore]

You clearly didn't watch the video 😅

[@JTPlayzGamesMore]

Lmao sick edit

[@captanblue]

@@JTPlayzGamesMore Well no, It was still more tech to learn since I never bothered with ledge trumping normally, I didn't even know how. Then I remembered I haven't played Mario in a while when he got to that portion and its easier with him.

[@JTPlayzGamesMore]

@@captanblue well your original was looks like I got more tech to learn and if anything this vid showed not to even bother with it due to inconsistency until he posts the new vid on Thursday

[@xue1379]

@@JTPlayzGamesMore thanks for clearing up what the original was I was confused

[@sonikku997]

I KNEW IT! I was losing my mind because I could trump consistently but as soon as I tried trumping an actual character I would mess up a lot more and I couldn't figure out why.

[@browking8161]

Opponent: *I have the high ground* Me, a Pac-Main at the ledge: i HaVe ThE hiGh gRoUnD

[@guts7099]

Great vid GimR! I'm actually super impressed that you found out something this important before anyone else. Props man.

[@Milr._jpg]

Funny thing is that I started practicing this tech a month ago with joker and I thought i just would get the timing wrong when doing it with other characters. Wow, turns out it’s just easier lol

[@Minister_of_Magic_1997]

I’ve always noticed this but thought it was nerves too. Thanks for labbing and clarifying this.

[@gieziquinones1350]

Me: Watching this video. You Tube: Hey, I recommend you to watch *this* video. Me: But, I am watching it 🤨.

[@BigBadada2012]

You manage to find the craziest, most obscure tech/exploits. Good shit 💪🏾

[@happilyisolated]

Holy crap, something I've been doing before GimR found it? He explains it much better though so I can practice to make the execution better. Thanks man. The hero we need but don't deserve.

[@Bacchus325]

Thank you for your amazing lab work Gimr!

[@kani-]

DAMN THAT'S WHY IM STRUGGLING AT APPLYING IT OUTSIDE OF TRAINING This is very interesting, can't wait for the counterplay video to come out. Great stuff as always, thanks GimR

[@greenpinapple820]

Collision is like one of my favorite things in this game. Love getting edge guarded by body block

[@TheEvilmonkey25]

OH YEAH PACMAN REALLY NEEDED THAT

[@mrcrispy308]

This explains a lot. Thanks gimr!

[@ArbiterSky]

I swear Gimr looks like a hostage begging for his freedom in every single video.

[@autumnshinespark]

"Please send help before they getup attack me"

[@robertwindshade7629]

@@autumnshinespark XD

[@blackghostcat]

So first it's "please don't punch me" now it's that?

[@PQ2CPU0]

GimR: "I realized the character doing the trumping also affects how hard it is." Me: "So, Joker has it easy then?" GimR two seconds later: "And, of course, with Joker-" Me: *_*already starts laughing in Joker main_**

[@karlcossaboon7072]

that exact thing happened to me too lmao

[@Niceguyhidden]

Why does Joker have it easy?

[@charlie2443]

looks a lot easier for fastfallers, with wario it's harder to do than for chrom/roy/joker

[@N12015]

And of course, Pac-Man is the hardest character to ledge trump. Like a Yoshi main said "Is amazing how randomly good this character (Pac-Man) is".

[@TyphonCH]

@@Niceguyhidden Joker is a more polished character in every regard. Everything works for him

[@pepekong]

"And obviously characters that can grab the ledge with B moves don't have to worry about this" Oh Mario, I love you so much.

[@soba_fm]

I like how he takes the natural logical step a competitor would think of for counter play and goes further into the tech and it’s applications to show how it can be used

[@Ekim2F94]

Istill don’t understand how you don’t have more subs. Major key channel for competitive players imo.

[@willashley23]

8.0 patch notes be like "removed collision boxes from characters while grabbing the ledge when invulnerable"

[@dementedcat4842]

Pacman now s tier

[@Rhaemos]

"it's gonna be a lot of fun" while talking about the arms character... oh the innocence...

[@moonwatchereclipse5291]

LMAO LITERALLY ME CHECKING RECENT COMMENTS FOR THIS HAHA

[@bboyposeidondw]

Really helpful been trying to get this tech for some time now!

[@xxwallzxx4509]

Thanks.. I was wondering how to do this better. Now I know and can add it on.

[@AuraScar]

I noticed this when trying to ledge trump in training mode and I couldn’t find a good answer online, thanks 💪

[@UGB6WX]

I always thought the difficulty in doing the "instant" trump is based on the character's fall speed. Also something I discovered is that the way to PREVENT the collision box from affecting your trump is to go for the trump AS they're grabbing the ledge, but before they're completely attached to it. It's pretty much the only way I could get a "floaty" character like Sonic to ledge trump anyone reliably (and the timing is quick enough to get his slower aerials to actually connect in time).

[@TheUltimateScottz]

Bless you GimR

[@davidswart4247]

On one hand, its a crime Gimr only has 100kish subs. On the other hand, I'm glad to be part of the 100kish who know the tech he tells us about

[@hydranes]

perfect video I was just yesterday getting super frustrated at the fact that i couldnt reliably ledge trump characters when they were hanging there, but i could do it every time when it was an empty ledge. this makes sense to me now

[@IamSimplyYOSH]

I main Pikachu and he has always had a fast ledge grab. So I been doing this more often lately. Good video!

[@keyki5288]

Another thing to keep in mind is ledge trumping varies for every character, depending on run speed, some easier or more difficult than others

[@jfrost1]

Thanks gim

[@fidel_soto]

10/10 informational

[@kierancheng2619]

Thanks man I learn't so much from this vid

[@PlumEXE]

I love watching this channel even though I can’t get to elite smash

[@Kaard07]

Another video coming out Thursday? Heck yeah

[@TreebeardXIV]

Nobody but gimr finds this shit out, he truly is the biggest brain when it comes to the logistics of the game, bravo! 👏🏻

[@Vreyvus]

This explains why Ridley has an S-tier ledge trump. He is fast, heavy and has an amazing ledge snap range, which would mean that he doesnt care about the collision of the hanging character at all when going for a trump.

[@skylander84]

This is one of the first things I ever labbed

[@xxSSexyveganxx]

Hi GimR! Thank you for the great content! TLDR I'm wondering how hard ledge trumping is with Mythra/Pyra, hoping it's easier than average and might have decent followups/would be worth learning, thoughts? (long version : You make ledge trumping sound so hard until you mention Joker haha. I just bought a switch and the game basically only to play Pyra/Mythra, and I was wondering how hard and how relevant it would be to learn ledge trumping on them (on each, I guess? maybe only worth on one of them?).) Love how your videos are really precise and clear, and I was hoping to find a "visual" of the input/timing of ledge trumping and your video had just that and it helped so much! Cheers!

[@xIrHaxor]

There's also a method of ledge trumping not quite sure if its useful for Pacs case but you can ledge trump the same way and if you miss the ledge trump its not as bad (fall to death, have to waste Up-b to get back to ledge, get punished with X move). Its basically you just do the ledge trump as you showed, but you just jump at the end. Be careful not to hold jump otherwise you'll get a ledge jump.

[@metallicwind]

Congrats on 100k

[@arostelurio3153]

Back to the ledge again oh no

[@nimblen8]

Just to clarify, you can buffer jump during your fastfall as an option select. If u miss ur ledge trump u just jump back on stage. If u get the trump the jump doesn’t come out and u execute the bair

[@purinpuff1337]

I can't wait for next month!!!

[@zionjackson7617]

I love your videos they’re very helpful but I wish I could do this with cloud I’ve been trying to practice this for a very long time before you put this video out and I could barely get it now it makes sense I have to fast fall you’re my initial dash off ledge and then Jack I stick around to the other side to get it but I can’t do this in a real match like I tried to run off the ledge and tried doing this and I will get punished

[@KHPL1998]

damn this makes so much sense

[@lexxurevg1]

@GimR's Lab , I struggle with ledge trumping, but my typical method to do it easily is to fox trot into the ledge, then 180 the stick. I realize in my mistakes, when I fail it's because I'm not fully holding towards ledge with the 180 motion. I am able to do this consistently against Pac-Man in training mode. This is with Snake though.

[@kingbill8155]

What?! I never thought that collision exists with characters on ledge

[@jackhogan5913]

Me watching this as a joker main gave me my daily dose of serotonin so thanks for that.

[@Vanillabear1337]

So youre tired now?:D

[@wawacat6568]

Damn and Nairo really be doing it perfectly out of instinct. What a beast

[@simonedgell6959]

god. that was cool and really useful thanks!

[@lyonburns3824]

Thank you esam’s brother

[@evergreen8600]

Thank GODDESS! I thought I was the only one having problems ledge trumping people in a real match when I’ve been consistently practicing and getting it in training mode

[@umopapsdn2864]

Just for a quick mind game option, I think it could be really good for a character like palu against pac man to purposely fail a ledge trump. If pac man has already run out of vulnerability (or will soon) you can run off stage and begin the fastfall, but instead of actually going to ledge you continue passed it while hitting pac man with a bair

[@kidpresident_1475]

The other time collision boxes are still interactable during invuln is when Lucina breaks a shield, the moment where the character flys up in the air they are invulnerable but you can still jump up and body block or "push" them off the stage. Very useful for killing people at zero who get caught shielding at the ledge.

[@CatchingZzs]

Damn that’s kinda sick.

[@NoFairiesAllowed]

Weird I just thought about gimr like a hour or two ago and this uploads

[@cobaltdeleon]

Awwwww yis, gimme that tech

[@nah3]

yes

[@dariuscross2946]

So this explains why I get ledge trumped constantly by joker and Lucina

[@theconjurer7471]

Besides Joker, Ice Climbers can ledge trump PAC-man with ease as well. They are also, hands down, the best at ledge trumping due to setups like the Big D allowing for kill confirms that most characters simply lack.

[@doggem4792]

YASS NEW TECH POG

[@nintendofan1014]

it's a good day to be a Pacman main

[@heavy_elite]

The more I watch your Vids, GimR, the better I become.

[@DarukaEon]

This is similar in concept to wavedashing off the edge to grab the ledge.

[@RibiRoo]

I knew this wasn't just me.

[@meliodas8356]

I totally forgot the Arms character was even going to be in the game.

[@Mac_McBride]

damn the weird character collisions break so many things in this game. They really need to let us pass through characters again.

[@Robbie_Haruna]

It's not "broken" because it's different. This is why the Smash community's mentality is duckshit. They just kneejerk and look at everything that isn't 1:1 exactly the same as *insert game here*

[@benjaminratthe9904]

@@Robbie_Haruna It's just not as fun bro you don't need to over-analyze it. Let's say a friend doesn't like pineapple on pizza. You serve him a pizza and as much as he'd wanna enjoy it, the pineapple bits ruin it for him. So he tells you, but you proceed to serve him pizza with pineapple every single time. You BOTH know that you could easily enjoy the pizza if it wasn't for this annoying liitle thing. That's what Ultimate feels like. And the people saying "just accept that the game feels like dogshit or don't play it" seem like they don't understand how business and feedback works.

[@Robbie_Haruna]

​@@benjaminratthe9904 The game doesn't feel like dogshit though. That's just people exaggerating for the sake of it. Exaggeration is a major tell for someone who can't actually come up with a decent criticism without exaggerating something x10. The problem is people who see any mechanical changes then just knee jerk bash them because how dare a different game not just be a complete copypaste of the previous ones, (and this isn't just an Ultimate Problem, Smash fans have always been horrible about this.) and yes, the removal of running through has caused issues on certain moves not connecting properly, but almost every complaint is "I have to do X in a different way than the last game," which is just bitching about something being different rather than being bad, (because too many smash players would rather moan about something rather than just learn that X behaves differently now and adapt (like any good player does.) Frankly, despite a handful of fucky interactions, I prefer the lack of running though opponents. It's a welcomed indirect nerf to fast characters (who have pretty much always been overly dominant, and who are generally benefited the most by the other universal changes in Ultimate.)

[@SpaceFrog999]

Robbie Haruna The new collision physics are just plain bad, you sausage. The smash community can live without wavedashing, thats not actually what we care about. We just want the game to not feel clunky and sloppy i.e. increased character collision, the shitty buffer system, trouble falling off/through platforms, etc. Listen man, we are on a Gimr video, clearly both of us play this game every day. We love this game, and so does everyone else in this comment section whether they would like to admit it or not. We just want the little things that can ruin the experience to be changed. When i dash grab into a shielding bowser point blank and it WHIFFS, im not mad because “it wouldnt have whiffed in smash 4,” im mad because it should NEVER HAVE WHIFFED IN ANY GAME EVER

[@itsameyoyo]

Lucas can DJCZ back to ledge which makes this a lot easier, you don’t have to worry about hit boxes since his tether always grabs ledge

[@marinadavies1917]

Someone should make a tier list/graph for every character

[@mrwilsonian7348]

4900 variables goodluck

[@TheSquirrelbeast]

You can probably check each character's Discord. I'm sure players are going to test it for each of their characters

[@Segel1230]

Yeah but what about get up attack tho?? Oh, wait... he kinda covered that... Ok GimR, I'll let it pass this time

[@jackherbic6048]

Would a short hop rar fast fall be a better way to ledgetrump packman?

[@Not_Aaron_]

I used to do ledge trumping a lot in smash 4 and stopped with smash ult cuzz when i first played it was harder now I could prob do it again

[@agni3872]

can someone help me? im not sure if it is ecen possible for charizard to trump because of the collision with his tail. am i not doing it right?

[@MicWellz]

I found this a few months ago. While practicing stuff on olimar. You can footstool some characters.

[@nagl1347]

you can also trump someone by running off, tapping diagonally down and quickly return the stick to neutral. i find doing this so much easier, i don't know why i find it easier tho. it is what it is.

[@-king6585]

Thank you so much. I could never Trump as little Mac vs DK you're a genius. Also let me guess the "solution" dashtoward ledge > Dash away from ledge > then hold in the other direction again? Even if this isn't something you thought of it could still be useful.

[@SpaceFrog999]

Oh so basically the new collision physics make this game needlessly complicated and cause nothing but jank??? Thank you sakurai, thank you so much for this fun new mechanic, i too love whiffing my dash grabs from point blank range.

[@jovannydiazabad6123]

Pivot grab?

[@Rikimarusoul9]

Half Circle back. Remember that.

[@KingBobbyG1223]

Banjo gang rise up, we got b reverse rear egg

[@NathanKent01]

i noticed this day 1, but i didn't realize it was due to certain characters, thought it was just the game so I didn't go for ledge trumps anymore

[@edibleasbestos9467]

It's back to the lab with Gimr, and you too. Go test this out with your Characters. For real, man, do it

[@brain_tonic]

EdibleAsbestos yeah I play falco and Ike, it’s way easier to do with Ike...

[@SexyPants]

I N S T A N T T E T H E R T R U M P G A N G

[@autoattackband]

With Chrom (and other characters), you can roll to the ledge and hold shield, keep holding away from the stage, and drop shield to automatically trump. Super consistent trumps! A lot like the marth killer in melee. :y

[@rawr4804]

Just a little thing I wanted to say: Being invincible isn't the same as being intangible. Invincible state has collision, like when you respawn from the platform, intangible state doesn't, like rolling or spotdodging .

[@iansevertson4131]

GimR! So Young Link has a small bit of tech where if you run and turn around short hop off the very edge of the stage and then zair as soon as you leave the ground, you snap to ledge instantly because of tether (you have to short hop as close to ledge as possible). Is this faster than the normal ledge trump method? I don't know if other characters with tethers like Lucas or Samus work the same way. Sorry it was kind of hard to explain and I don't know how to test it tbh. I was just wondering if it's actually a viable or even better method for characters who have the means.

[@Creepo_J]

Olimar's eyes open Ah yes, valuable information

[@edwardlalonde5232]

What was the music at the start?

[@lucasevans5640]

OMG I thought it was just me being bad in real matches. I can get it pretty consistently in training but I couldn't do it very well when I put a CPU on the ledge and had no idea why.

[@Gruvest]

I'm pretty sure ZSS has it hard trying to ledgetrump in this game because she falls fast, has a small ledgesnap detection range behind her, and runs off of ledge at a large distance by default. Some ZSS labbers have found it easier to position yourself teetering off of ledge, start with your joystick up (if you don't have tap jump on), roll it to forward to walk off of the ledge, and then flick it back to the stage. This is obviously a bit more obvious and slower than dashing, though.