The Legacy of Dead Sun

Welcome to our deep dive of Dead Sun - the controversial cancelled title in the Legacy of Kain series. Join us as we explore every facet of this title in depth and reveal this Black Cloth like never before.
Chapters:
0:04:13 Development
0:21:26 Story
0:37:36 Characters
0:50:02 Gameplay
1:04:47 Locations
1:10:49 Cancellation and Beyond Death
1:18:29 Conclusion
1:25:34 Credits & Bloopers
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Blog: theancientsden.com/
Facebook: / theancientsden
Twitter: x.com/RainaAudron
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Some notable sources used in creation of this video:
Huge thanks to Aevum for extra information and sources!
'Legacy of Kain: Dead Sun' at the Legacy of Kain Wiki:
legacyofkain.fandom.com/wiki/...
'The 10 Cancelled Legacy of Kains' at Neogaf (by Mama Robotnik):
www.neogaf.com/threads/the-10...
www.neogaf.com/threads/legacy...
'The Legacy of Kain Game That Was Cancelled Three Years In' at Eurogamer (by Wesley Yin-Poole)
www.eurogamer.net/the-legacy-...
'"If HBO Made Zelda" - The Untold Story Of Legacy Of Kain: Dead Sun' at Time Extension (by Lewis Packwood)
www.timeextension.com/feature...
'Dissecting LoK: Dead Sun' at Reddit (by Limaj Daas)
/ dissecting_lok_dead_su...
Videos used originally posted by:
Mama Robotnik: / @mamarobotnikneogaf
Slampbell (Hosted at Raina Audron): • Legacy of Kain: Dead S...
Eurogamer: • Legacy of Kain: Dead S...

[@Redem10]

Sometime life is good to you and gives you 1h30 documentary about your niche franchise cancelled project

[@MCPunk55]

Mocking elequence is a sign of insecurity.

[@Legather]

The more I learn about Dead Sun, the more I'm convinced we live in the better timeline. Better to leave the story where it was than give it to people who scorned it.

[@michaelburke7978]

So glad this got canceled, because this was not LoK despite the title, and this was not the game fans wanted. We want a conclusion to our unfinished story; we wanted the Defiance sequel The Dark Prophecy that was in the works to be completed and possibly finish the story.

[@Lyendith]

Would it really make sense to release the end of a relatively niche unfinished story 20 years later? Unless they remake the entire series sans BO2 beforehand…

[@jabroniyumerale6204]

As long as single one of us stands - We Are Legion.

[@nick_at_knight]

Incredible that the Dead Sun project so brazenly sought to wipe away the lore and characters that make LoK as attractive a series as it is. They may as well have just made up their own world as more of a spiritual successor, but of course Square would want to capitalize on the name recognition while disrespecting the meticulous artistry that has made lifelong fans of so many, even after such a long hiatus. Anyway, great video. Thank you for this. I learned a lot I never knew before!

[@Supernoxus]

We think LOK is garbage and we want to appeal to any audience except LOK fans. Let's make a LOK sequel!! - The Devs, probably

[@Necrocom4]

"the original games were too convoluted for new players to understand" then they proceed to create an even more convoluted story

[@SuperChocolateBear05]

Thanks for taking the time to put this video together, very well done and very interesting! However after hearing that the devs had contempt for the previous games in the LOK series and showed them disrespect in the form of the play , that is enough to convince me it was a good thing dead sun was not released. Honestly, even if they wanted to do a reboot and ignore previous elements, nothing turns me off than devs trying to antagonise their own fan base. Seems to be a trend with a lot of franchises these days so I’m glad this didn’t come out after hearing this. (After hearing your description of the play, that was the way I interpreted it anyway) At the end of the day if we eventually get a revival of some kind , there’s only one shot to do it right and make a great impression. Blessing in disguise that dead sun never came out imo.

[@steveandrade3477]

Very well put. I used to advocate for this game until I heard the devs had planned to dispose of the original lore. I do however think it would have been a good stand alone title based in a distant future of Nosgoth with the Legacy of Kain moniker removed.

[@yeez13]

I always thought that the play at the start was meant to be a nod to the original lore of the series and just a way for them to sneak it in since Square Enix wanted ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FROM THE PREVIOUS GAMES INVOLVED (in their words…”without the baggage”) and they knew older fans would despise it without any sort of acknowledgment 🤷🏽‍♂️ If anything, I see it more as a “we know that you guys want THIS BUT MORE WELL DONE…but the Publisher doesn’t want it at all” and another capitulation that the devs had to keep coming to grips with. They all seemed far less spiteful of the original series and more towards Square Enix when it came to the feedback/broken promises they were being given

[@user-qx2oj2tq2k]

How strange for them to throw the LoK lore out for being convulted only to make the most convulted storyline I've ever heard to replace it. Anyway, PATHS NEED TO BE REBUILT.

[@forgot7en]

It's kind of Sam Barlow's style to produce horribly convoluted writing. As I said in another comment, Dead Sun just sounds like the worst fanfic ever.

[@bigphallusog2095]

Definitely one of my favourite channels, really appreciate all that you do.

[@kaporal890]

tbh, i'm glad that this game didn't came out, it is a LOK only in title imo.

[@forgot7en]

Just like Blood Omen 2, only somehow faaaar worse.

[@sympathiea]

I am so, so smugly happy that Dead Sun never got off the ground, for how hostile it was to everything that came before and the fans that loved the stuff. All that fucking bravado for nothing, goddamn that's scrumdiddly

[@fedupN]

Well, thank you for all this. The deep dive really affirmed what we already knew: the genesis of boring, open, procedural generated tripe of EA style Creeds, Shadow of Mordor, and later GoW poisoned it. Along with the "liveservice" ideas, this chasing of market trends generated a bland, boring least common denominator game. In short: "Money! Get us money! Get us those Call of Duty, dorrito and mtn dew bros in here! Make it eeeddggyyy!" There are fragments of interesting ideas in there, but damn I'm kinda glad it didn't see the light of day. Even if I enjoyed Nosgoth's later adding on to the Soul Reaver Lore and drew on bits of Blood Omen to do it.

[@OGDarkestDave666]

Great video guys (another great one) but im glad this game didnt see the light of day ufff..... on the otherhand would love to se legacy of kain dark prophecy release because it would've been a continuation to Defiance and thats what most of us want, Would love to see you guys do a dedicated video on LoK: Dark Prophecy :) Keep up the good work guys

[@patrykjedi4583]

Great work! Thankyou for this

[@JCharlieAN]

This is the most cosmically epic video I've ever watched about this lost VG, thank you so much for giving it to us, we infinitely appreciate it. Although: I almost died of laughing with blooper at the end 🤣🤣🤣🤣 you guys are the best ❤️ greeting ad so much love from Cuban🇨🇺 fans of you and this beautiful franchise of ours ❤️❤️❤️

[@uros.u.novakovic]

When I first learned about this game being cancelled many years ago I was very sad. But the more and more I learned about it the more glad I was that it never saw the light of day. Maybe this could have been a new IP or something, but never a LOK related game. The combat reminds me of Prototype game a lot, which I like.

[@jesternario]

It'd be nice to get a hold of this vertical slice so we could play through it ourselves to at least see everything.

[@jean-pierrea5803]

Wow... So much information! No other video went this deep into the story and details! Amazing job as always.

[@jesternario]

Anytime I hear the words "Call of Duty" and "Inspiration" used together as a positive thing, I know it is the end of more lore-heavy story-based series, since they are dumbing down the story in favor of heavy action and no actual story to speak of, not to mention heavy multiplayer aspects.

[@kylepherson1951]

Bravo, team. You did an incredible job making this lost world more coherent. Would love to see more of this. Thank you for sharing!

[@fuglegock1127]

thanks as always for your time and effort. Aside what could have been with another title, its also interesting to see, how LOK has influenced so many "offspring" games like tomb raider entries or the asassins creed series. I'm glad this didnt turn out a sequel to LOK. Ridiculous inconsistent story / background. If it is so difficult for a modern story writer to sequel the epic characters of Kain and Raziel, they could focus on side characters of the established franchise as well instead of just throwing pieces of a husk on their own games. Vorador seemed stronlgy invested in his revenge for Janos being assassinated with his rampage on the circle of nine. His motives could at least fill a chapter or two. Or Janos insight on the human revolt against the antique vampires or the Hylden war with its consequent fall of the vampire race. So much to delve into. But it would all need a modern writer to 1 know the lore 2 respect the lore 3 understand the fanbase 4 respect the fanbase I love LOK as a dead franchise rather than see it ruined by another undead writer imitation...

[@AdamMichalMarkowski]

Awesome and in-depth video as always! Despite my distaste for Dead Sun there was some hard work done on the project, despite it being all based on very flawed concept and probably biggest example of showing middlefinger to your existing audience, at least until we had some of the game companies deciding their old games and fans are problematic based on political ideologies...

[@kevinlavoie8248]

Thank you for this, ive always been curious about seeing more of what could have been from dead Sun, glad to see more gameplay and learn more of the story, that being said I am ultimately glad this game was cancelled as I am sure discarding and ruining the established history would have potentially made my favorite series of all time one of my least favorites. One thing not mentioned in this video is how ashen is able to maintain the same bodily appearance unlike Raziel after his body is dissolved by his attempted suicide?

[@bazlmoon]

It's not really explicitly touched upon in the sources so i didn't highlight it in the video but going by previous lore and what we do know from dead sun it would seem that the manifestation of form by a wraith entity somewhat reflects their mental state. The Saradin realm shifting vampires had spent years undergoing ritual torture to prepare themselves to shift between realms. For Raziel it was a much more sudden and unexpected shock tainted by betrayal and his ragged state reflected his fall from grace. In short: They knew what they were getting into and could thus be mentally prepared for it in a way Raziel could not.

[@kevinlavoie8248]

@@bazlmoon I considered this theory since you mentioned the vampires training themselves to be able to shift into spectral but still I'm not sure if it makes sense, Ashens mental state would likely be similar to Raziel with the loss of his wife and child along side his sudden death. While we are discussing realm shifting there are vampires such as Melchiah in Sr1 that are able to pursue Raziel into the spectral realm. I've always wondered about this too, in the case of melchiah was his simply peering into spectral and could phase through it to inflict damage or was he full shifting back and forth? My theory has been the world was so corrupted at this point all dimensions both Demon and spectral were able to bleed through into the physical realm as its integrity crumbled and those who's souls were also ancient enough and beyond death enough would have access to peer into these other worlds having a part of their soul tainted by them. This is my theory. Dumah I believe can also peer into spectral but at least in his case we know he spent some centuries in it and was able to adapt to it.

[@OnyArt]

1:17:17 ooooohhhh SHOTS FIRED!!!! 😆 While I can empathize with all the work Climax put in this game and am happy they pulled themselves out of despair, I am now fully glad this game was cancelled. Ever since hearing about Dead Sun, I had always been a little curious on what the game could have been, but after seeing this entire documentary full of stuff I had no idea about, especially the story direction, yeah, so glad it got canned.

[@filipniklas]

Great video! Glad it didn't make it in the LoK series though, even though it tries to imitate certain aspects of it, it does not have the caliber nor the heart.

[@kressnik]

It looks like a game that absolutely didn't understand what fans need, and yet at this point I can safely say that many of us would definitely take over having a bunch of nothing for almost 20 years (yeah, I'm not counting Nosgoth)

[@daniell1483]

As a lifelong LoK fan, I admit I have mixed feelings about Dead Sun. The psudo-departure from the rest of LoK lore bugs me, but at the same time, I see the potential here. Something like a "what if" scenario, like if Kain accepted the sacrifice, what would have happened, that type of thing. The gameplay looks fun, especially the seamless transition between physical and spiritual realms, but that does sound like a technical barrier at the time unfortunately. Ultimately, I like that the game tried to do something different even if it failed in the end.

[@Rahhelthethird]

I'm amazed how much information is out there about this game.

[@midobasha-xn8ol]

1:16:00 = prince of persia + assasin's creed dead sun lives in the new assasin's creed

[@midobasha-xn8ol]

we may have not gotten the amazing dead sun but we got assasin's creed

[@Lyendith]

Square: "Nah, it’s not gonna be well received, let’s not risk losing money and pissing off the fans." Also Square: "Oh by the way, why not separately release that multiplayer mode that barely has any connection to the series? Surely fans will love it!"

[@solomiguex]

Honestly, I was really excited about the idea of ​​a timeline in which Raziel killed the vampires like in the original script, I didn't know that, and the contrast of op Kain returning with all his glorified eloquance, what a cool contrast that would be. Did anyone mention the Lok survey the cut content? I said that it was very loved by the fans and that having a time chamber in play it would be a waste not to explore it at least as replayability. Can you imagine, playing with the camera, that at a certain point the pillars explode and are replaced by the tentacles of the ancient god? Thanks for your work.

[@chrisrichardson1600]

So SquareEnix cancelled Dead Sun through fear of backlash from the community.. and yet released Nosgoth.. well that didn't do much for the franchise.. I never even bothered looking at it and I love LOK..

[@RavenSoulifer]

At least Nosgoth followed the story. I never got to play it since they cancelled it even though they hyping the hell out of it. Cancelling DS makes sense. But it would have been good as it's own game outside the franchise.

[@pehhii]

So this is the experience of a vertical slice of cheese, interesting. Really awesome video, not too fond of the game as a part of LoK, but a stand-alone would be an interesting play for sure.

[@greenraptor3017]

As much of a controversial game as Dead Sun was (and I'll be honest glad it wasn't released) it's still nice to see it getting some recognition as it was an interesting game to say the least.😅 If it wasn't linked to Legacy of Kain and was a game of itself (which yes means major changes but can be possible to either be heavily influenced or a spiritual successor like Deadhaus Sonata) then maybe Dead Sun would've been a great Vampire game, just didn't feel like it's predecessor games and certainly differed and didn't live up to the series which unpleased many LoK fans and with the development mess it went through. (Side note I actually liked the look of Nosgoth before it shut down which is a shame but hey ho) Really good video Raina and as a sucker for cut content/cancelled games (Wished Dark Prophecy was made) I loved this video. Keep up with the amazing work, sorry for the long comment, thanks you, you are amazing👍

[@forgot7en]

I don't know how you can say it "could've been a great Vampire game" when, at a glance, it is impossible to tell that the character is a vampire at all. He shares more in common with Raziel, who was a wraith in every game.

[@greenraptor3017]

@@forgot7en Although yes I can see what you're going by, considering that it was a heavily Vampire themed game, not too mention that Gein/Asher was more leaning to the Vampire side than a Wraith (especially since Gein was an actual Vampire and you could still drink blood from what I seen which is like Dumah ability from Soul Reaver 1 since he could also go into the spectral realm as well as the soul sucking ability) I think that's why me and a lot of other people say it as a Vampire Game but the term Fantasy Horror is more probably accurate to it.😅 (Edit-typo)

[@DaemonetteLeilu19]

Thank you for talking about my most beloved niche franchise. I cant get enough of it and you do a really great job on answering some of my lost questions on this series

[@Niyucuatro]

This seemed to have all of the drawbacks of an ubisoft open world game with the addition of pulling a swicheroo and nullifying the interesting lore and story of LoK. Kind of glad it was cancelled.

[@mesarthim640]

I was so hyped for dead sun... Love Legacy of Kain to death and despite dead sun not being really related to LOK, the game seemed awesome and full of really great ideas. I still hope that one day, dead sun will be revived by some publisher although they would need to redo all graphics. It's a shame because the game seemed so far in development.

[@nex7245]

what a effort, thank you for this amazing video!

[@brandonvicbossmorgan]

We're never getting LOK back. Embracer is making all kinds of cuts because a 1 billion dollar deal fell through 😢

[@DavidSmith-bv8mv]

What do you mean if you don't mind saying? What's this billion dollar deal and consequences from that? Thanks.

[@fuglegock1127]

@@DavidSmith-bv8mv some investor jumped of because / and a credit line of 1 billion busted. No money, no paychecks for the programmers, even if embracer has best of intentions.

[@JooshMaGoosh]

I first saw your name on a reddit comment you left in LoK sub about SR1 and the whole wrace thing. Then got this video recommended to me and had to double take to confirm it was the same name i saw on reddit lol Good work man, great video!

[@duellcollins7989]

I need to say this to you. This series was great and it only got better with time. Excluding that last boss fight. This game looks highly promsing and is just as good. Just need some clever puzzles and a good power system.

[@RavenSoulifer]

Kain needs his story finished. They wasted so much time on Dead Sun when they could have finished the actual tale. :/

[@ffmmain8673]

@@Fulgore-dy8qr how did he kill himself??

[@oldiskool9328]

@@Fulgore-dy8qr who sacrificies herself was raziel not kain

[@Alucardko]

hope a demo leaks so everyone can play

[@FalkZad]

Excellent video!

[@AkatsukiCerberus]

Thank you so much for this! I was really excited to hear there'd be a video about anything and everything else that wasn't made public. I was totally devastated when I heard the project got cancelled, if only because I was starved of *anything* new to chew on. A shame they couldn't get the right funding and actually use the lore we care about. Also great bloopers, thank you for including those haha!

[@SkunkWerks7]

It's a great look at the particulars, gave me a lot of information I didn't have before... Though, I really have to wonder if it (at least the narration) doesn't suffer from an overly-optimistic view of the gaming industry in general- which really has a long and storied history of a reach that desperately exceeds its grasp. In order to "avoid future mistakes" it's rarely enough simply to point them out to an industry that seems hell-bent on copypasta'ing bad systemic decision-making. Gaming companies don't so much learn history to avoid repeating it as they learn it to more closely emulate it. ...and then guilelessly wondering why all their efforts get Hindenberg-style send-offs.

[@RaeTheSpoonyBard]

This video was very interesting and enlightening and just further cemented my view that the best thing that could have ever happened to the Legacy of Kain fandom was for Dead Sun to be cancelled. Dead Sun COULD have been an interesting and fun game if it had been completely removed from Legacy of Kain and wrote around its own original lore/story with no attachment to LoK whatsoever. For all the lore it tossed aside it mind as well should have been. The most ridiculous and infuriating notion of the modern age remakes of games/movies/etc is to completely "reimagine" a world and its lore, alternatively ignore said lore, or rewrite characters to be so far removed from who they were they are unrecognizable to the original fanbase. Clearly Dead Sun had this in spades. Games like Baldur's Gate 3 give me hope that some old IP's can be brought back and handled with care and respect if put into the hands of the right studio and developers (It helps if said studio is actually independent) but it's rare to see such a thing in the current game landscape where quarterly profit reports are the norm for game companies. From what I've seen, original fanbases are typically ignored at best or demonized at worst in the pursuit of profit. As much as I adore the Legacy of Kain Series - it is by far one of my most favored games that is dear to my heart - and desperately want it to be brought back and done the justice it deserves... I'd prefer it stay dead. I'd rather remember it fondly for its unique Shakespearean dialogue delivered by top notch voice actors, its CONVULUTED story and the memorable eloquent characters. Better that than witness the likelihood that some other money driven company being the ones to try and revive Legacy of Kain, proclaim "hold my beer" to Dead Sun, and repeat the same mistakes as Dead Sun, but on steroids. Better a fond memory than seeing it bastardized into something that isn't even a hint of an echo of what once was.

[@catalin0504]

Realistically the different time could have easily been explained by Raziel and Kain are still up to "no good" in the past. Maybe something that managed to restore some life to Nosgoth but not fully healing the land. I am sure if I managed to come up with this excuse so could they, if they wanted to honor the games before. Also things such as gore for the sake of gore and lack of elocvent speech could also be explained. Gore actually doesn't even need to be. SR1 starts with Kain tearing of Raziel's wings, it is not like the original team shied away from these stuff. The brute speech can be explained by the proud clans are gone, all there is left is almost tribe-like groups.

[@artemisarrow179]

Dead Sun lost me when those vampire hunters said the F bomb. Showed the writers completely lost the script.

[@Brandelwyn]

They are bandits and r999ists, what did you expect? In their case its completely justified

[@michaelburke7978]

Same here. This series is known for its eloquent writing and dialog, and Dead Sun just wasn't LoK

[@soulreaver1983]

Awesome many thanks Raina!😎👍

[@JamesCarmichael]

Alas poor Dead Sun. I knew it well.....well not really. Seriously thank god this got cancelled. I don't know what it is with modern development in games, movies and other media where people who actively dislike something are put to work on it and you end up with a product that hates itself and it's own fans. What on earth is going on?

[@LinoWalker]

Stellar analysis! I feel very relieved that this ended up getting cancelled - although it's got some neat ideas, it definitely doesn't feel like LoK. Some constructive criticism: 1. The intro was way too long - there were far too many preambles 2. Each chapter of the video begins as if it's an entirely new video. E.g. the part where you talk about the characters is treated like you didn't just talk about the entire story 30 seconds ago - it felt a bit like reading the info off of a wiki. Same goes for the rest of the chapters Still, you've got a very good voice for narration and the level of detail in this documentary is absolutely amazing! I can't even begin to imagine how long it must have taken to put this whole thing together :D

[@bazlmoon]

Thanks for the kind words and the considered feedback. I'll keep these in mind moving forward. Funnily enough I've been writing for the LoK wiki for a long time so the style may have rubbed off on my presentations.

[@LinoWalker]

​@@bazlmoon "Funnily enough I've been writing for the LoK wiki for a long time so the style may have rubbed off on my presentations." Wow, really? Back in early high school (2008-2009), I spent quite a long time on a couple of Bulgarian LoK forums, translating content from various wikis :D Who knows I might have translated something written by you :D

[@charaznable8072]

Goddamn am I sooooo glad Square sold off their western developers and their IP's because they literally have no clue about those type of genres and it's best they stick to what they do best, JRPG's.

[@DavidSmith-bv8mv]

They can hardly do that even and this is coming from me as a fan of FF series, the good ones atleast. I too will second the view that these IPs are freed from the incompetent shackles of Squenix. And am I the only one that is fed up with the countless TombRaider games they released as so many were just slightly above average at best, yet they kept chugging them out in an age were people really want top-tier story, lore and character voice work and they had the IP of all IPs for that ( LOK ) and decided nah, vampires aren't cool, lets make a online multi-player thingy instead! They also messed up another great in Deus Ex because of greed despite a great first entry and Hitman series because of the awesome and innovative concept of less is more (sarcasm ) release of chunks of a full game over the course of a year and wonder why it didn't do well!

[@meisterodin1981]

As always, great video. Call me crazy, but I prefer an incomplete series to a "new" vision of LOK that completely ignores what made the series great in the first place. There are fates worse than death for a video game series, and IMO this would have been the case. Let's hope the new owners of the IP learn something from this dumpster fire and show some respect for the lore and the fans...

[@RippahRooJizah]

This is kind of mostly off topic but this comment reminded me of an argument I got into in another comment section years ago about how Defiance's ending was the perfect ending to the series, whereas I wanted the story to actually be finished.

[@forgot7en]

I absolutely agree, it's much better to leave the series dead and undisturbed than ruin it with a terrible spinoff.

[@CaptainMyron]

A Legacy of Kain game with no relation to Kain. This is a new peak of the gaming industry. Just make it a new franchise there is no reason to tarnish an existing one with all those kink elements and trashy dialog.

[@ewwwt]

50:02 I kept seeing the Arkham games or Shadow of Mordor spoken in this video, but I honestly believe the gameplay to Dead Sun resembles Prince of Persia 2008 a lot more than anything else......

[@ewwwt]

1:10:49 F#@%3n B#!! $#!t I would have preferred this over Nosgoth. but whatever, the past is the past.

[@billmcdermott9647]

@@ewwwt Never say never. I never thought prince of Persia would return but here we are with lost crown

[@realamericannegro977]

This is nowhere near as cool as the original series on any level. They took all the soul and style out.

[@WarDogMadness]

Dam dude ive tryed to watch this video 7 times after work i keep falling a sleep got some top tier asmr bro . 😂 awsome work ive finally finished it great vid.

[@Albert-Navarro]

I was hoping that game would come out I remember hearing about it back then, then it cancelled and was super sad. Me and my older brother played LOK Defiance as kids. I'm hoping we get a new one someday.

[@user-uk9mj6cs5b]

love you !

[@steveandrade3477]

Even though it cancelled the old lore, I would have liked to see another vampire game in the age of Lords of Shadow.

[@tailgate8840]

Great video i love learning about the development history of both canceld and released games i actually got my intrest in Lok because of Dead Sun after i watched Matt Macmuscles Wha Happun epsiode on it i had heard of the franschice because i had watched Mandaloregamings review of Blood Omen but didnt know much beyond that my interest in the franschice grew as i started learning more about the lore even though i have never played the games because i was way too young when they where comming out. Even though DeadSun didnt share many themes with the orignal games i still think it could have been a cool game in general the visuals athmosphere and the gameplay looks really apealing to me personally wich is why im disapointed it got canned here is hoping Embracer Group actually does something with the ip imagine how cool a new Lok game could look like in an engine like Unreal Engine 5

[@blyysm]

Masterful 👏

[@KingTairun]

Karma got them after all. By 2014 to 2015, without any official announcement, Climax was closed due to financial issues.

[@bazlmoon]

They assisted development of Returnal in 2021...

[@KingTairun]

@@bazlmoon they brought coffee for the Sony devs all Climax do is "we can do it cheaper" and ruin whatever they touch they should be gone by now

[@alejandrofurio2685]

I've enjoyed a lot your compehensive review of the project, as I usually do with your other videos. I'm a fan of LoK series, SR1 was one of the first videogames I'd ever played back then, and it's always a pleasure for me to replay them from time to time. That said, if I can speak my mind, I do think that, despite this project actively seeking to distance itself from the established lore of the series, it shows a lot of potential, as you very well point at several times through the video. Some of its aspects look astonishing; I particularly enjoyed how they intended to make the spectral realm a much more integrated, real-time mechanic than in the previous installments; I agree with you upon what you say about some aspects of the new combat system, as I think it's a breath of fresh air in that regard. Even knowing, of course, that these elements deviate from what was previously established. But as a graphic artist, probably the aspect I found absolutely the most heartbreaking is how they cancelled the project all of a sudden after all this work was made, for, as you mention, even if the actual direction the game was taking would've probably disappointed the existing fanbase profoundly, it seems that a lot of talent and hard work had been put upon it to try and make it happen. I think it would've been very interesting playing the game if it had been developed and finally released, even knowing that probably it wouldn't follow the established lore from the previous games; and even more knowing that they had intended the game to follow what was initially planned for SR1 but had to been cut off at the end. Maybe as you say, it just wasn't the right game at the right time; but I think Climax had the potential and talent to develop an interesting proposal, one brimming with possibilities and ways to reinvent some of the elements from the original games. Again, thanks for your video: it's an oustanding, grounded analysis, and I enjoyed it a lot!

[@oldiskool9328]

Lok was originally created by Silicon knights,sometimes o think If the ip was restored tô the formers creators,the history Will be totally diferent what we experimented as soul reaver's continuattions

[@RainaAudron]

You can see it in DeadHaus Sonata in a way.

[@silvek99]

This is super interesting. LoK could have used the combat updates presented in this game, however the actual game/story doesnt sound that appealing. As you said, it got very dumbed down.

[@Thanhatos]

Thank you for the video in lenght ! I'm pissed at people not respecting the basic material who gaves the name of the franchise. (Witcher's tv series, the movie "I am a legend", etc. etc. etc.). If you want to do something else, go do something else. Don't use the names ! Dead Sun might have been an interesting game, by itself. But that's not really a Lok or SR game. As "Nosgoth" was a joke... Maybe there is something to do in a kind of strategic/mmorpg/beat'em'all when Kain has his general vampires, and starts to conquer the world. There might be places when you can do something a bit different from the firsts games. But that need to be done smartly... and remembering why the firsts gamers played the games, and loved it, even 20 years after. :[ ]

[@peterszebeni8582]

In fact, unlike many, it doesn't seem like a bad game to me, and seeing as they handled that it's an alternate world, I feel like I could have enjoyed it. Just like the Devil may Cry series had a wild ride D.M.C., which reminds me a lot of this, as it was more down to earth, vulgar, and violent in its depiction. And I liked that one too, unlike many fans.

[@spardathedevil7956]

Legacy of Kinky Vampire Sex: The Game

[@durag_rico]

Woooooooooooo, let's make this video greeeaaat

[@SionBarzhado]

I really hope a build of this game leaks someday. I’d love to be able to eventually play it on an emulator one day!

[@im5tylinOnu2489]

My only hope is one day this build will get the Duke Nukem Forever Treatment…. Id love this to get leaked and then tweaked by the modding community.

[@midobasha-xn8ol]

it has roots in assasin's creed mirage check it out

[@midobasha-xn8ol]

loki trapped in basim as a genie is like asher trapped in gein

[@No_Plays_Hand_Empty]

Just discovered this channel in my recommended, thank you Algorithm! Really interesting deep dive into a game I've never heard of, despite adoring LoK since childhood. Haven't finished the video yet so forgive me if you bring this up, but between the "grittier" remagining, the weird shitting on the original, the very different and divisive combat, hell even the colour schemeing of the alternate dimension... Getting a HUGE amount of DmC: Devil May Cry vibes from this hahaha! At least these devs never called Kain a "gay cowboy" :P Random theory but I wonder if in the full game that we never saw, Boaz might have been tied back to/revealed to somehow be Moebius? Vampire hating Elder God worshipper, hmm sounds familiar... Great work, can't wait to watch the rest of the video later :) P.S. the sage play Raziel and Kain designs kinda go hard as fuck not gonna lie, Kain especially!

[@WalterGirao]

Glad this was cancelled. This is clearly not LOK. This could have been it's own game though. Regardless... this presentation is probably more interesting than what the game would have been. Everything I had seen of the game itself looked and felt clunky and amateur. It lacked atmosphere and finesse. I see the LOK series evolving into something like Bloodborne.... this is more like a batman or spiderman game

[@NeoAstrisk]

How do we revive a franchise? Why, ignore the story, throw characters in the trash and make it completely different from the source of course!

[@Dreyden-]

This guy reminds me of Hidan from Naruto Shippuden

[@fantasywind3923]

It's interesting to compare indeed with Shadow of Mordor situation...as both the Dead Sun and Shadow of Mordor felt like kind of different....takes on their respective franchises :) (and one can easily say that in terms of writing and epicness Legacy of Kain is like Lord of the Rings of video games :)) but also both showing certain worrying symptoms....of certain disrespect for their properties and wild fanfctiony variation of it...Dead Sun writing seems...unrefined in a way that is just mimicking the 'cool dark edgy' style that Shadow of Mordor had towards the Lord of the Rings world and story going wildly off rails when it comes to lore and doing crazy stuff. In terms of superficial similarities...both Shadow of Mordor and Dead Sun even have that familiar feel in terms of gameplay, the more complex themes of story though being sidelined for the cheaper rule of cool, dumbing down. The certain concepts of Legacy of Kain world being twisted in the Dead Sun just like many of the aspects of Lotr lore being twisted in the SoM games :). Lord of the Rings and relation to Shadow of Mordor is a whole complex issue but it ultimately is similar to how Dead Sun approached the Legacy of Kain franchise...both kind of...try to modernize their premises, their worlds trying to make them 'new and exciting' but also somewhat losing the heart and essence of the original. Of course all of those might have been just impressions based on what little we have seen....though the 'lore' of LoK didn't seem to be in the center of attention in a way that SoM treated Tolkien's lore :). Talion example and his state of being possessed by spirit of an elf-lord, and the similarity with the protagonist of Dead Sun a spirit of vampire but it's a man that is in vampire body really :) (I wonder how the 'vampire wraiths' would feature into that...the Soul Reaver dealt with the spirits of vampires that were too long in Spectral). Who knows what fully might have been but it doesn't stop the thought that both SoM and Dead Sun seem like outliers to their respective franchises.

[@TheKueiJin]

Here's the thing. While SoM thrived on its gameplay to move the narrative, you quickly see the egregious fallacy of it when examining its spawn. Shadow of War. Never has there been a better reason to not pervert creation than Asshat of War. While SoM truly did try and create something relatively new with the franchise, albeit failing on multiple fronts, it still managed to inspire and prosper. And of course, where prosperity lies, so too does the wretched fallacy of greed. Imagine that the only things added to SoM would be ridiculous effects on your weapons and a constant, berrating, unmutable, unquenchable hunger for your money. That's what Shadow of Mordor spawned. That is what Shadow of War is. That's what happens when something thrives nowadays. Greed kicks in.

[@fantasywind3923]

@@TheKueiJin yeah, the Shadow of War does feel like that....and as a sequel it was truly a perversion of the franchise it supposedly adapted (plus the whole deal with microtransactions, the fact that in general the game seemed like the features that were cut out of the first game :)) one wonders if the Dead Sun wouldn't happen to follow the same pattern :). As far as the treatment of source material Shadow of Mordor COULD have done MUCH better indeed the game might have been better IF they used more book lore and so on....and the Dead Sun should have had MORE of the old Legacy of Kain...but alas. :)

[@TheKueiJin]

@@fantasywind3923the absolute best (even if it deviates from the originals) would be a complete remake of the series. It would also spark interest in the franchise again. And we all know how well Capcom is doing with it's own remakes.

[@fantasywind3923]

@@TheKueiJin I would be a bit apprehensive :), though if the 'remakes' were merely updating the engines, graphics, trying to recreate it as faithfully as possible if adding or slighly improving, changing here and there....maaaaybe it would do good...well there are cases of fairly decent remakes....though one I had in mind was the Dead Space and Dead Space remake :). It added some changes to the original but in general did a good job of trying to recapture the spark of original.

[@yeez13]

After learning about Monolith’s Project Apollo, a planned tie-in to The Dark Knight Rises much in the vein of the Arkham games but more “Splinter Cell-ish”, I do believe that they cannibalized Project Apollo then took inspiration from Dead Sun after the fact

[@ireallyamayuube]

I'd love a SR remake in the FF7 style. They could keep most of the story, but then go for the intended ending, and at that point spin off to another timeline altogether. But if LoK ever strays away from the amazing dialogue, voice acting, convoluted storytelling and atmosphere, it just won't be LoK anymore.

[@forgot7en]

I wouldn't call it "convoluted," if you play the games in order and ignore BO2 (which shouldn't even be considered canonical anyway), it makes perfect sense and it's easy to follow. It's definitely complex, but "convoluted" carries a negative connotation that isn't applicable in the series.

[@ireallyamayuube]

@@forgot7en English is not my first language, so I probably used convoluted in the wrong way. To be honest I couldn't make sense of the story the first time I played them, but I was also a child back then. Replayed them a decade ago, and with some help managed to mostly make sense of them, so yeah.

[@revelnotion1060]

I don't understand the fascination with alternate universes and shifting time lines, especially for a series like LoK that hasn't reached a conclusion yet. Not only has it been done to death, but it disregards any consistency the story had in favor of something "new" or "random" happening. Surely writers can come up with more creative ways to revitalize a franchise.

[@EraseTime]

GIGACHAD VIDEO LIKE ALWAYS. Can't imagine the time behind to collect all this info and edit the video with you as narrator. By the way, since I'm Italian, i think my english is fairly good but even with subtitles on, some parts i struggled to understand the correct meaning, it's not about the british accent but more for the "Refine Language" which sometimes seems like to hear a dialogue of the reach of Soul Reaver. Anyway speaking about Dead Sun, damn fans of Legacy of Kain are so thirsty we don't have a game since ages, i can't wait for any news which probably in the years (i imagine) will come... i can't wait for a Remake or a New IP with the creators of Legacy or Blood Omen franchise. Also didn't know all this story between Climax, Eidos, Crystal Dynamics and Square Enix so complicated!!!

[@kaliduncanel3356]

This isn't a bad story I just dont think they should tell it at the expense of the original story.

[@kickass12121]

As someone who has been a longtime fan of the franchise from a distance, I would have been very keen to see how this all worked out. I like the ideas presented and it’s easy to find enjoyment in a reverse talion aka shadow of Mordor situation. People complain that there is much less theatrics at play and who knows, maybe that stays that way, but the tone is still there, they just aren’t using fancy words to describe it, which is an aspect I loved sure, but it doesn’t mean that if kain or raziel where to show up that they will speak the same as the new protagonist. And besides we don’t know the narrative. It might have lead up to some very intense and dramatic events if they had the right writers.

[@fantasywind3923]

It's interesting to compare indeed with Shadow of Mordor situation...as both the Dead Sun and Shadow of Mordor felt like kind of different....takes on their respective franchises :) (and one can easily say that in terms of writing and epicness Legacy of Kain is like Lord of the Rings of video games :)) but also both showing certain worrying symptoms....of certain disrespect for their properties and wild fanfctiony variation of it...Dead Sun writing seems...unrefined in a way that is just mimicking the 'cool dark edgy' style that Shadow of Mordor had towards the Lord of the Rings world and story going wildly off rails when it comes to lore and doing crazy stuff. In terms of superficial similarities...both Shadow of Mordor and Dead Sun even have that familiar feel in terms of gameplay, the more complex themes of story though being sidelined for the cheaper rule of cool, dumbing down. The certain concepts of Legacy of Kain world being twisted in the Dead Sun just like many of the aspects of Lotr lore being twisted in the SoM games :). Lord of the Rings and relation to Shadow of Mordor is a whole complex issue but it ultimately is similar to how Dead Sun approached the Legacy of Kain franchise...both kind of...try to modernize their premises, their worlds trying to make them 'new and exciting' but also somewhat losing the heart and essence of the original. Of course all of those might have been just impressions based on what little we have seen....though the 'lore' of LoK didn't seem to be in the center of attention in a way that SoM treated Tolkien's lore :). Talion example and his state of being possessed by spirit of an elf-lord, and the similarity with the protagonist of Dead Sun a spirit of vampire but it's a man that is in vampire body really :) (I wonder how the 'vampire wraiths' would feature into that...the Soul Reaver dealt with the spirits of vampires that were too long in Spectral). Who knows what fully might have been but it doesn't stop the thought that both SoM and Dead Sun seem like outliers to their respective franchises.

[@yeez13]

I like the ideas presented here as well since the Saradin could very easily be explained as the descendants of Raziel’s clan of vampires, with Gein possibly being the “modern version of Kain w/ a twist of Raziel”. It plays into the whole “Vampire Evolution” plot element that was presented in the first Soul Reaver along with the Human/Vampire Hybrid (Saul) meant to be the main antagonist of the game 🤔 It’s implied to have been MILLENIA since the events of Soul Reaver 1 (and by extension everything before & afterwards) which themselves take place long after the events of Blood Omen 1 + 2, so there’s so much they can establish in this “future timeline” that they could very easily build backwards from in a way similar to games like NieR/NieR Automata/Drakengard 1 and Drakengard 3 since it’s all one timeline with a definite Beginning & Ending (IF you can parse it yourself…) What had me the most interested here is the idea of Kain still possibly existing (or how they explain his passing) either as the (possible) “Vampire JFK” that would be revealed to have “sired” Saul to begin with and it being possible thanks to his Vampire Evolution manifesting after 10s of 1000s of Years…or in the same way he did Biblically: cursed into walking Nosgoth eternally for the most grave of Sin in the eyes of the Wheel of Fate…cheating it and “making the coin land on its side” There’s so many amazing places they could’ve taken the franchise (and possibly did but never got it out) that I feel like Dead Sun was meant to be the start of a new Trilogy/Quadrilogy meant to work backwards & forwards much like SR into Blood Omen 2 & Soul Reaver 2 did into their own version of Defiance where we get definitive answers on why the Younger BO2 Kain was ended by his Defiance/Dark Prophecy Older counterpart and/or how Kain was finally able to get Raziel to sound the Silent Cathedral in one of the “go-arounds” across the timelines. However…Square-Enix themselves were too keen on disregarding the lore and over time probably felt it was “too complex” and cancelled it since they didn’t want a repeat of what happened to franchises like Deus Ex (DeX2IW being an example), Tomb Raider (AoD), or even the also then-in-development Final Fantasy Versus XIII (an EXTREMELY tragic story of development hell and cancellation)…so they didn’t even bother. This is why I wish we could at least get the leaks for what would’ve ultimately been the final story treatments & drafts/scripts for some sort of closure

[@gibakigamer4041]

This game could have ben intersting if was a new game series.

[@connordorman117]

Awesome vid so far, I'll watch the rest later. So far to be honest, I love aspects of it but I feel it's not a great direction to take Legacy of Kain and it isn't a worthy sequel.

[@user-tu4un9zl5f]

Pretty kewl

[@donniedarko4487]

Can’t wait 🎉🎉

[@PeteOfDarkness]

46:21 yeah, that's probably the reason why she made it past concept art phase lol.

[@Tsinij]

Vertical Slices are always made during preproduction. Alpha and Beta Builds come much later. So I'm not sure what point you're trying to make at the 1:04:20 mark?

[@bazlmoon]

It's just saying that the dead sun vertical slice presentation that has been going around has been heavily edited to hide it's imperfections and is a lot more unstable than it would first appear.

[@Spartanlyra]

this game should be in public hands to be finished

[@Hyperion-5744]

I'm looking forward to seeing this.

[@gagak78hitam52]

yup...a blue wolverine copy...

[@josephsouza9599]

Was the vertical slice or any kind of build ever leaked or available in any way online?

[@RainaAudron]

Not that we know of.

[@josephsouza9599]

@@RainaAudron I agree with a lot of the sentiment that this game was not going to capture the spirit of the series and was probably taking it in a direction not suited to the long term fans but as a life long fan of the game myself ( I still use the name Raziel for most games I play when creating a character or username) I would still absolutely love to play the build of dead sun that existed , to this day it looks really cool to me

[@RainaAudron]

@@josephsouza9599 it would be interesting to see for sure!

[@DarkeniusStorm]

This could have been awesome game on its own if they just put out LoK from the title and kept it called only Dead Sun. I see that they got very inspired with other games with the gameplay style and I see nothing wrong with it but this game suffers a lot with a lack of story.

[@forgot7en]

It just looks like Batman Arkham Asylum and DmC vomited into a petri dish... except with worse writing than either. You might not like it, but Squeenix made the right call canceling it.

[@jasyn197]

I love LoK and I'm sad Dead Suns never came out tbh. Mostly because now it's basically a dead IP and it deserves so much better. Here's hoping it comes back.

[@patrickempson7366]

This would of been cool if this was the story of Jonas.

[@gameslayer420]

🍻

[@greg17prime28]

"Go Cheese"!

[@IizGrohiik]

Wenn ich das wieder sehe. Ich vermisse nosgoth. Das war so ein tolles game, bis auf die cheater, hat es echt viel spass gemacht. Ich vermisse auch die community 😢Allerdings frage ich mich wie die Leute heute nosgoth spielen können, da es geschlossen wurde. Ich sehe immer mal wieder wie sie das spielen laut meiner Freundesliste 😂 Auf dead sun warten wir ja schon sehr lange😅 (ca 9 Jahre). das gameplay erinnert einen an Prototype 2. Ich hoffe das wir das bald spielen dürfen. Ich wäre auch mit einem LoK movie zufrieden 😂

[@bazlmoon]

Look into the Nosgoth discord. It is possible to play Nosgoth today.