THE LION AND THE HUNT FOR THE FALLEN! THE UNFORGIVEN CONTINUES

[@andrewbyrne2173]

I suspect his interventions in the cells are the result of information received from the risen. They have first hand accounts about what went down on Caliban. Lion then does his due diligence based on that information. When he leaves the cells sad, and tells the chaplains to continue, I think he’s confirmed either this fallen was an og traitor, or became one after being scattered by the warp, but Lion was hoping the info was wrong.

[@Werrf1]

There's an extremely strong implication in L:SotF that the Lion was being somehow guided to places where he could find those of his sons who had not fallen. Every attempted recruitment works out perfectly first time, letting him build his knights of the round table quickly. Quite possibly this has continued - we don't know exactly how many Risen there are now. The way it was written in Arks of Omen made it sound like more than just the twenty we knew he had gathered in L:SotF. So imagine the Lion is being guided to the redeemable Fallen by the Watchers in the Dark, while at the same time the Dark Angels are continuing their own search. Most of those brought in would be the bad ones, because the Lion is picking up the good ones. Occasionally, a possibly good one is brought in and the Watchers notify the Lion. That would be when he shows up to the interrogations.

[@robertkb64]

Simple version: the Emperor is guiding the Lion to his loyal sons, that continues, so almost by definition if the Lion wasn’t drawn to a specific event where a Fallen was captured then they’re almost by definition traitors, and he only intervenes when one of his sons can be saved.

[@brya9681]

Tha would be incredibly boring ad would rob The Lion of any agency.

[@Zachfive]

I’m curious as to what the Lion thinks of Cypher. He is definitely known to the chapter, and I can’t imagine the primarch wouldn’t have been made aware…

[@AzraelMight]

Probably suspicious and will figure out who he truely is (probably not one of his sons)

[@themachine7534]

I dont think they can ever meet , the lion will know him instantly as zahariel or corswain, and its most likley corswain. Which would just take azreals place as senechal.

[@AzraelMight]

@@themachine7534 with the things we’ve seen cypher do neither fit the description of cypher in abilities or fighting style

[@themachine7534]

@@AzraelMight theres no one else , and its not redloss or holguin because gulliman would have recongnised him in gathering storm.. im a huge cypher buff have been for about 20 years and honestly its either zahariel or more likley corswain as in luthers book he says he saw zahariel fighting corswain and doubts he survived so thats basically where we are at with it all , waiting on the scouring series to confirm who won that battle and became the lord cypher that was cast into the rift on caliban.

[@Aristaios]

@@themachine7534 it couldnt be corswain he wouldnt side with traitors sometimes

[@spuddlingbob8724]

I imagine the loyalist fallen have seen or know of the hunt and gone more underground/ covert as time passed, whilst the chaos fallen roam and gather in warbands more overtly. So I would assume that most fallen found will be chaos loyalists, or those that may have fallen later on. In effect this makes the normal hunt for the fallen continue, at least this is my interpretation/ headcanon!

[@MandoSki464]

He may be using the redeemed and the watchers to also make sure his current day DA sons aren’t going over board as well.

[@gwilym1991]

One thing I am curious to see happen is if the Unforgiven do abandon a war front to pursue a fallen and then see the Lion's reaction and judgement. The Lion is only judging based on what he has seen since he has returned but the Unforgiven are basically as much traitors as they accuse the fallen of being, abandoning war fronts, murdering allies, killing a Custodian, hell Azrael at Wyrmwood contemplated killing all the Blood Angels come to help them because of what they now knew. I could see the Lion executing even a chapter master for some of these actions.

[@jonathanmalone1943]

I think the rarity of the Lion’s intervention in the interrogation is representative of the average Fallen captured in battle by the Dark Angels. The Fallen who became the Risen in the Sons of the Forest have the distinction of those being willing to parley with the Lion instead of attacking outright. He didn’t need to torture them, just continue extending the trust already granted by that parley to a test of faith or mission to see their commitment. By contrast those who have made their home amongst heretic warbands, even if they did not originally fall on Caliban, often will have Fallen since. Other Fallen will be better at approaching the Fallen in peace anyway, hence some of the more secretive companions missions.

[@AzraelMight]

Zabriel shot him the second he saw him

[@jonathanmalone1943]

@@AzraelMight true, but it ended quickly with no deaths as the Lion could see he was protecting the people there. I would note that no other Fallen (that hasn’t fallen to chaos) fires on him from that point on. He’s got other Fallen at his side and the others at least hear the Lion out

[@fistonpiston]

I imagine since when he teleports to fallen the ones that are devoted to chaos are the ones that get the interrogation treatment.

[@slavkohorvat8858]

Novel Lazarus: Enmity’s Edge should come out this February, perhaps there will be some new info regarding Lion. Though, it is possible that plot of that novel will happen before Lions reunion with Dark Angels. Anyway, I hope we get second book about El Johnson this year.

[@erih2934]

Sadly I don't think we will find anything important in that novel about the Lion. I would expect it to be set before the Arks of Omen just based on being released this 'close' to the campaign and Lion's book and GW didn't advertise it as connected. Any important revelation will most likely happen as you said in a new El'Jonson book.

[@mrclewz]

I always got the impression that the capture of the fallen was a rare moment but something the Unforgiven pursued with extreme prejudice

[@koshe86]

i reckon the redeemed are now the ones leading the hunt as they know they signs and those they know as loyal are made in to the companions, the rest they dont know or know are traitors are taken to the cells for asmodi play time.

[@luccasdubai]

Plot twist, the Risen who doesn’t remove his helmet is Alpharius 😂

[@DanteMac26]

I wish GW would make a few of the characters from Son the Forest into datasheets. Also, how often are they actually encountering Fallen? Up until recently I figured they were pretty rare, like maybe 1 in 50 years? 1 in 25? This makes it sound like now they're finding Fallen every other month or so. So 30k Legionaries spread over roughly 10k years, if they distributed evenly, that would be 3 a year. Obviously this is chaos shenanigans, so probably not an even distribution. Maybe an exponential curve? Drawn to the time at the other end of the warp portal that destroyed Caliban? And we know that it was a small fraction of the Legion that was Traitorus to begin with, maybe they're mostly the ones they've been finding the past 10k years? And maybe the bulk of loyalists are arriving in the modern 40k, and "gathering in Legion strength"?

[@RichardStrong86]

It would make sense they might find them more often given the rift and greater presence of warp energy in the materium.

[@br7693t]

I think it has to do with the Inquisitorial Serial Number printed on the cover of the Codex. The Codices are written in that kind of voice and often leave out a lot of the nuance.

[@Cornerboy73]

I can (and would actually like to) get onboard with the idea that Lion's encounter with Seraphax impacted him moving forward. I think, sadly, that the more prosaic answer is that the Black Library authors and the Codex writers don't read or at least consult with each other's work.

[@outburst1245]

I have the same feeling. I would not be surprised if that was the case.

[@minishaw280]

@@outburst1245there’s overall lore masters who have the say on anything printed by gw ! So yes there is a middle man that reads it all

[@erih2934]

1. Lion: Son of the Forest showed 'Fallen' that by all accounts are a minority. We don't even a handful of examples of Fallen that are not connected to Chaos. As far as I remember there was one in the Battlefleet Galactica game leading a fleet, the one used by the Crimson Slaughter to bait the Dark Angels, at least one from Cypher's squad on Terra,... but after that? Pretty much all were among the worst characters, many being chaos sorcerers. 2. People think that DA are chasing and pulling in Fallen all day every day... If this were the case the hunt would be already complete after 10k years - there were less than 30k marines on Caliban (and a part of them had actually joined Corswain for the campaign to reach Terra). Its extremely rare that they actually catch one of them. For the Lion to not have the time to talk to these rare captives sounds a bit odd. Also captives were previously interrogated for a very long time (even though Asmodai is a utter failure in this regard, others at least managed to get the one or other black pearl - on this note remember how rare black pearls are and thus Fallen that actually repented their actions). Even when reading his book I assumed that the Lion was guided by the watchers in the Dark to find those loyal to him, but I never thought that he would save even half of the Fallen. They will remain the DA's main antagonist - as with Luther.

[@Black_Blow_Fly]

Excellent analysis… as always.

[@capatialvinjohn2753]

Am waiting for the time the Lion meets CYPHER. Will he get his sword back? will Cypher lead the Risen? lots of questions....

[@scatterthewinds3126]

Doesnt seem like an inconsistency to me. The tainted are killed... the loyal become reedemed. The lion knows before the torture begins.

[@lukefishlock2715]

Maybe the fallen the Dark Angels "capture" are those supplied but the Risen... And I only intervene if they are the ones who haven't been put forward by the Risen...

[@unmitigateddisaster3793]

I'd guess the change made would be that the ultimate goal of the interrogation, while still brutal, isn't to just force a confession so the Dark Angels can feel better about themselves. It's an attempt to actually find out what happened on Caliban and determine if the Fallen is a traitor or not.

[@jeremyleonjonas7657]

The one change to the hunt, I'm all but certain to have happend is that the Lion almost certainly has forbidden the slaughter of allied forces who have seen the Fallen.

[@Kristian.B.Kristiansen]

Perhaps... the Lion of old had zero hesitation about extreme genocide. Old habits die hard.

[@Captain_Confused]

I mean... Dark Angels have been grimderp for a long time. Why change now?

[@Castello201]

The problem is that the codex and novels writters dont talk with each other

[@JackLarsen-rp9qj]

I just read this and it kind of makes sense as a possibility, what if the king figure the lion is seeing in his pocket dimension/castle is actually the dark king. no clue how the relation between the emperor, star child or dark king work, but thought that was a cool theory

[@umbra9273]

Does cypher have the same ability as his primarch. Forestwalk?

[@erih2934]

It was never described in detail - but he often appeared and vanished (and rules related to that) - but he also never left traces of vegetation contrary to the Lion. Based of the Cypher: Lord of the Fallen book I seriously doubt GW has ever put a significant amount of thought into his background and instead have been happy enough with keeping it 'mysterious' and with some vague outlines.

[@Raist474]

Most likely he has a "list" of suspected good and bad cases, and updated the Interrogation methods to minimize false confessions. Interrogation-Chaplains probably now have some situations where they realize they need the Lion's recommendation before proceeding.

[@Kameth]

Barrivus, do you think it's weird that sometimes after the Lion leaves the interrogation room and it's empty, that the next day we get a new experienced brother with very freshly painted armour? Nah, Bobrael. Doesn't seem suspicious at all.

[@WhiteIkiryo-yt2it]

Is there a new piece of lore of the Lion having a conversation with Azrael? Guilliman had a moving conversation with Dante, so I am curious to know if Azrael was given similar words or was he more stern with his son? Things have gone wrong but Azrael has done his best and if anyone is going to accept the Lion's way, it will be Azrael. Asmodi...well, he might need a bit more of a stronger lesson.

[@Kristian.B.Kristiansen]

People who believed or theorised that a returned Lion would be furious with his Unforgiven Sons, purge/punish them and radically change their methods... That was obviously never going to happen! The Lion was always a secret-focused and uncompromising bastard. Willing to do whatever was needed to win. The modern day chapter was a perfect reflection of his darker nature.

[@brentarellano46]

The lion was always against secrets, ousting them because he believed they held the future back. And the information could be useful sooner or later. The only secrets he keeps are the watchers and his personal opinion on his sons. I was expecting him to at least criticize his 40k sons for killing civilians they were meant to protect. But I think he's allowing the hunt for the fallen so he can find his loyal sons from the heresy. Which is when he steps in to talk to them himself. As it also seems he's keeping his 40k sons in the dark from his plans with his risen angels.

[@Kristian.B.Kristiansen]

​@@brentarellano46 I can't agree on the secret-bit. The Lion was famously unreadable to his brothers, kept so many secrets Guilliman couldn't fully trust him and was the Emperors black-bag man. The one to delete knowledge and races too dangerous as decreed by the Emperor. "Today's secret kept is tomorrow's unspent coin" was a motto spoken by the Lions high-command.

[@brentarellano46]

​@Kristian.B.Kristiansen he was mostly unreadable to his brothers because he was socially awkward, that sounds silly to put it that way but it's true. He never got along/let anyone know him really except his caliban sons and Luther. He deleted the xeno races to protect humanity as those races were too dangerous to be kept alive in any way. As was the task of the 30k DA to face the most dangerous xenos species. But as others have pointed out in the comments GW is going back to making the lion a 1 dimensional character again.

[@Kristian.B.Kristiansen]

​@@brentarellano46I am neither surprised or upset. This is 40k. Characters don't grow and change for the better... :D

[@brentarellano46]

​@@Kristian.B.Kristiansenand I believe that motto is from the modern dark angels to justify their methods of hunting the fallen

[@thetraitorguardsmen.5321]

I'm waiting for the lion vs Marbas fight. And will cypher jump in and help the lion.

[@e21big]

I think the point of this theory is simply missing the point. The Hunt for the Fallen isn't problematic because it's the hunt for Chaos, every Astartes Chapters are doing that, all the time. The problem is the Unforgivien went above and beyond to the point of abandoning all duty for the sake of this little game, and as mentioned before, they didn't hunt the Fallen because they were Chaos - Azrael and Asmodai mentioned it themselves, they would have just killed them otherwise. They hunt the Fallen to give them a chance of redemption - through repentance and death. It's just redundant with the Lion Return. The same guy who would be forced to repent and then killed off would have been forgiven and redeem now that Lion himself is there, and the Traitors would just be the Traitors killed off like any others.

[@kingjoshwa1]

Makes me wonder if this means that Dante is no longer the oldest non-dreadnought in service to the Emperor…

[@islandpaddle]

How’s about the fact that some of these fallen are 10k years old. The warp really threw them that far into the future?

[@Mortarion-xt9wp]

Time works different in the warp. For some it was just 300 years or so.

[@stingblademaster]

Isn’t it simple to assume he is only allowing the Unforgiven to torture the corrupted? Saving and freeing the innocent ones? Don’t see how it’s a complex discussion personally.

[@Werrf1]

Of course, but then why is he only showing up rarely? How does he know which ones are innocent vs corrupted if he's not sitting in on all or most of the interrogations? It implies that he has some other source of information regarding who is or isn't corrupted.

[@zlboyle90]

How many books did the Dark Angels collect from all the fallen they captured over the years?

[@ElJorro]

Makes sense to me.

[@TheSILENTBOB180]

Sounds like the had the codex written and sent for print before they did son of the forest or people just not communicating

[@chuckmarcinko723]

I think Lion is searching himself for the Fallen to find those who actually knew and agreed with Luther and Astelan. Those are the guilty ones. Probably 95% or a little higher just followed orders given by the true traitors. These who he finds are being reintegrated into his "Risen" force. I love hearing these stories and more like them since the Lion and Dark Angels are my favorite faction. Now they need a new saying. The "Repent or Die" slogan probably needs retired. Thanks for the broadcast Rho.

[@ET-Gamer]

I’m curious how the risen feel about this, characters like kai or borz.

[@eichler721]

More great Dark Angels lore

[@DarkApostleNoek]

Ya they are still going on but Asmodai just can't always going around killing everything yelling 'REPENT'! He will see what they are doing and if it is Loyalist who tricked into thinking the Lion was a Traitor they are now Risen. To the ones who wanted an independent world I think some would be left alone as long as they agree to aid in a world's defense from the Lion's Protectorate, and then there are the Chaos worshippers which he let's the Interrogator-Chaplains do what they do best.

[@sotiristhymodeas7055]

Honestly, I think GW was just reluctant to change the DA lore in such a major way. The inclusion of the Risen is the most drastic addition in the current fluff after Guilliman's return. Despite the continuation of the tortures, I still get the feeling that the Risen are doing their own thing, under the command of the Lion. It's very evident that even the Grand Masters of the DA are not sure of what to believe of Lion's actions.... There is room for the fanatical DA players , there is room for the Risen, there is room for the Fallen, so everyone is happy ( in regards to marketing strategy...) ....

[@NineSeptims]

They are just stalling for the Luther and Lion showdown part 2. It makes sense that he wouldn't forgive all his sons and only save those that can be saved. The rest will be hunted as before.

[@davidcarroll2968]

Probably he encountered one of his fallen sons who pretended to repent and back stab the lion or at least tired to, either way this made the lion to second guess his sons, so he's letting the unforgiving do what they do best

[@steelshoe7606]

The Risen and Unforgiven would very old marines, right?

[@DaMarakuHD]

But is this information true? or just what has been made known to the larger host of dark angels to keep the status quo?.....

[@DJSummerDM1]

Has he came into contact with Cypher yet? does the Lion know he has his sword?

[@theodoremccarthy4438]

In Son of The Forrest the Lion promised that those who prey on humanity will be hunted down. The only way the Unforgiven would even find out about a Fallen is if they are attacking people and thus generating intelligence reports.

[@kolotchelemanassanecouliba178]

My problem is that he himself promised all his sons a fair judgement himself. And it's implied that most fallen didn't fall. So for me it's a fall in character.

[@jackholman9760]

It probably just inconsistent GW writing

[@FnRenner]

What's he gonna do with a few thousand? That might make an impact on a single (large scale) battle but is far too few for any sort of campaign, let alone a crusade. Gathering the Risen seems like time wasting while other things are lining up.

[@toddolson4614]

WHEN Cyher gets welcomed back along with other Fallen, Dante will no longer be the oldest loyalist space marine. Let that sink in! Dante can no longer complain about how old he is and how hr wants to die.

[@NineSeptims]

A point there. The fallen were thrown through time and aren't really that old in terms of actual time lived. Some have been around a while, whilst others may have just popped out last year.

[@toddolson4614]

@NineSeptims sure I understand the warp can kick you out years in the future, but one constant has always been the Unforgiven hunting the Fallen AND Cypher being present consistently. Luther had been in the Rock for thousands of years. You can't tell me he was the only one captured. The true test of how long a Space Marine can live: captured and never seeing the battlefield again to be at risk of dying in combat.

[@rebvamp13]

Think he has spied on his brother with his new skills

[@dww6]

He has told them to continue with a change in the rules. He'd be a pretty piss poor leader if they needed him to vet them most of the time.

[@MrMysticphantom]

The only thing I wonder if he made sure to order the Dark Angels to not engage in massive collateral damage or dereliction of duty in case a Fallen is found. If that hasnt been addressed then he's just being hypocritical, because that bit is unnecessary and completely against what he claims to stand for

[@tevin4006]

Again...this is GWs authors not talking to each other. They really need a lore keeper to lay down the rules on certain things so there's not so many inconsistencies with lore. Like...I was imagining the hunt would be changed in a sense that instead of paranoia and malice its more of "lets get as many as we can and see if they're good or chaos corrupted" Like the hunt should have changed in some way. It's a shame it didn't, and for the rule of cool, it still basically has to be the same.

[@C0ldIron]

A lot of companies could use this. Back in the day marvel effectively had a manager for each hero who was in charge of keeping the character consistent between writers and organizing team ups.

[@wchamp170]

I doubt the hunt continues the way it was. I have a very hard time believing the lion is going to allow any of his sons to be put to death unless he himself is convinced they are of chaos.

[@overlycaffeinatedsquirrel779]

Did he just say concrete answers and the Dark Angels in the same thought. The Lion learned very little, sue he's more mature, but ne didn't learn a lesson yet. His father lied to all the Primiches about the warp, we saw the result. Luther kept secret his growing frustrations with The Lion. The Lion kept secret from Luther why he was exiled, we saw the result. Th Dark Angels kept secret the fallen, that secret hunt that's resulted in The Dark Angels abandoning other legions/worlds to die. Just as his father lied The Lion is lying to his sons.

[@mersenniusprime]

I have never particularly liked the Dark Angels, but the return of the Lion and their behavior thereafter has made me really, really want them to face a reckoning. Ten thousand years of killing loyal Imperials to cover up a lie cannot be forgiven. For all the chapter's and the Lion's talk of loyalty, they alone hid the treachery within their ranks, much less killed to uphold their deception. I hope that they either suffer some kind of ironic punishment or else are forcibly exposed for what they actually are - liars whose loyalty to their chapter outstrips their loyalty to the Emperor. They already behave like renegades more than loyal Astartes. To at least some extent, they should be treated as such.

[@bennotgiven1375]

I find the whole no one can know about x or they have to be murdered trope overused as hell in the setting, and was REALLY digging my previous impression that this was being resolved. Very disappointing choice.

[@maffa2849]

I have been a fan of the dark angels since the 90s, from before the novels reached my country. Once the novels got her, i discovered that even if on paper the dark angels were the best of the best, for some reason WH writers loved to treat them as idiots and losers. This "hunt for the fallen" has been the single most misused lore tool in the last 30 years. I wish it gone. It has been tainted. It's the excuse for the writer to make Azrael and company behave like vitamin B deficient bellends. I cannot hope them to go back being the apex of the legion astartes, the most numerous, disciplined, best equipped, with the best fleet, and yadda and some more yadda: that has been already squandered. If only they were... uh... normal? Average? Win some lose some? I have enough of the Fallen. Enough of this Unforgiven. Let's do something else.

[@Vandelgard]

A bloody Primarch returned and nothing changed? Not Lion rushing to Terra, neither rushing to Guilliman? Not following anything from the first book of the Lion returning? Wtf GW

[@fluffmma9076]

🎉

[@malakye7459]

The codex lore was a direct contradiction to the growth we observed through son of the forest. It was a shame to read frankly.

[@minnumseerrund]

REPEEEEEEEEENT

[@matthewharr6881]

Their tainted he can sence chaos' taint he did say those with it he would kill

[@RevolverRho]

Great job making everything from son of the forest seem just so useless GW

[@ShadowGhost0117]

They had the perfect opportunity to make some fun characters to use in game, but that’s too creative for them

[@Kristian.B.Kristiansen]

A novel is never the prime mover of lore. The campaigns and codex-lore always tends towards as few changes as possible. And the Fallen-hunt is a key component of the Dark Angels character... they were never removing that!

[@Vandelgard]

He behaves completely different compared to the end of that book

[@leandrocastello309]

Yup, the obligatory free complain to gw already on the coments.

[@Vandelgard]

say that to the horus heresy series @@Kristian.B.Kristiansen

[@sardonicspartan9343]

Comment for the comment god

[@stavrosg1113]

I love to hate this chapter, for real. After reading their books, heretics just like the fallen. The actions they did in hunting or hiding the fallen, have the Minotaurs hunt em both.

[@augiechiavuzzi4907]

I think its a writer problem cause the story and codex probably wrote at the same time and no one talked and one said lion changed hunt over and the other said hunt not over lion has changed

[@davemck7433]

First

[@Cyrix789]

Nice

[@Nurriek]

I think it's far more likely that GW saw how people reacted to this change in persona with the Lion. So they did an about face to save face.

[@connorhall5665]

Not gonna lie, this is a disappointment if nothing changes, this is basically just GW refusing to do anything but what they are used too, teasing something new but then just back peddling like Guilliman with the religion of the Imperium of Mankind. Boring.

[@brotherhoodz97]

the lying lion, what else is new. common DA L.

[@IM-xs3uv]

Get to the point!

[@benchartrand3014]

Once again, you're throwing vowels into names that dont belong there. First, it was Fae..bee..us Bile instead of Fab..ee..us Bile. A long standing name since roman times, its never been said like that. I havent read son of the forest. But ive listened to the audio book several times. It is a rather good book. But its Zab...riel... not Zabe...riel. I know we all quirks in our speeh, but come on. You keep putting an "E" excrutiator in weird places. Its off putting.

[@rivendell8472]

Your comments are off putting. You always have something negative to say but you always come back. Make your own videos if you can do better.

[@gareth0412]

You're English please don't pronounce Zabriel like an American it grinds my gears. Zab-riel z a b not Z A b

[@blumiu2426]

It would be the writers that would contradict themselves as they wouldn't know what to do with the legion if they took away their placeholder to keep the preoccupied. It is strange unless the Lion can determine from memory which would be loyal or stray.

[@OldGoat-cw8he]

They can't have a nuanced Lion who is interesting. It's way easier to write him as a 1 dimensional, no depth, character.

[@Tommonius]

The hunt for the fallen is the worst oart of the dark angels. They need to return to horus heresy knights. Plenty of marines have fallen the dark angels will not be censored. Just GW writers clinging to the status quo