WILL LION EL'JONSON TELL GUILLIMAN THE TRUTH? THE FATE OF CALIBAN

[@BM-wf9uf]

Guilliman: "Where did you disappear to after the Siege? I needed your help." Lion: "I had a slight disagreement with my sons..." Guilliman: "Also, where is Caliban, scans say it isn't there anymore?" Lion: "I had a slight disagreement with my sons..."

[@eastbow6053]

Guilliman: "its like i am seen father in front of me" Lion: "i did say slight disagreement not 'empire ending' one" Guilliman: "touche"

[@theliato3809]

@@eastbow6053 If Lionel had his own personal fiefdom like some of his brothers it could have been.

[@umptischmutz]

I think when the Lion and Guilliman finally reunite, they're both going to realize that neither brother is quite the same person from ten thousand years ago. Guilliman has become quietly bitter, disillusioned, quick to anger, secretive, and extreme in his efforts to combat Chaos. He's also become slightly paranoid with keeping his plans and dealings hidden from virtually every major faction within the Imperium. On the plus side, he's also mellowed out when it comes to rule following. He's even bent his own rules in order to get things done. The Lion has become more open, more restrained with his temper, and actually considers potential consequences before acting. In short, the ambitious warrior statesman and the proud knight have been replaced by a tired, worn regent bearing a mantle he never sought, and an old warrior king battered by regret. I believe this element might make it easier for the Lion to open up to Guilliman about what really happened to Caliban and the existence of the Fallen. Both now have their secrets, and both have deep, personal regrets.

[@ravenlord97]

That was just a very well written comment. I do agree with you too. They are two of the most human primarchs as well. Both have codes of honor that they’ve had to break themselves. I think they are both going to realize that secrets are what caused the heresy in the first place.

[@musicisfree91]

I hope that whoever writes their reunion puts at least much thought into it as you did this comment.

[@The_0G_Chad]

G-man isn’t paranoid, he’s surrounded by snakes and zealots and unfortunately he can see the train car going over the cliff and while he’s the only being in the galaxy (outside of the Necrons ) who can guide the imperium through it, he knows there’s 1 million ways to fail and only one way to make it through this. The lion was straight up paranoid before, and he kept secrets for no reason outside of his ego. He literally destroyed the golden age of the imperium because of it. He withheld vital information from sanguineous and G-man One of the arch traders Purdy everything. G-man s “paranoia” saved him from the traders on the high Council, where his foresight had put in the assassins plan that saved everybody…. The lions paranoia, doomed, the salamanders, raven guard, white scars And killed Ferris Manis, and ultimately sanguinous and malky put his dad on the golden throne If he would’ve told Gman and sanguinous they would’ve set a counter so big it would’ve killed the horse, heresy in its crib. I’m glad the lion seems to be changing, but to be honest, this was all his fault. if ruining the imperium can’t wake you up out of your ego mania, nothing can. It’s hilarious to me anyone says he’s the imperium best general …. He cost more imperial lives and world and resources and brothers, then all the traitor Primarks.

[@The_0G_Chad]

@@ravenlord97 especially the lions secrets that literally cost the imperium it’s golden age. He’s responsible for the entire atrocity, and the reason why Ferris Manis and sinus, and the emperor are all basically dead. Corvus Corax Vulcan, and all their legions were wiped out and the traitors could go straight to earth…. So many people in the lower community seem to skip over just how badly the lion screwed up by not trusting his good brothers and literally telling all of the secrets to the traitors… when someone says he’s a genius general, it makes no sense to me. Because nerds get caught up in someone’s potential . Also nerds respond to bluster because they all secretly wish they were alpha males. The lion was full of himself, and would never miss an opportunity to let people know how great he was., while G-man being the AI super computer that he is would be introspective and constantly analyzing his own shortcomings and weaknesses. You have one person highlighting their flaws and the other one acting like they don’t exist…. Real world experience. Let me tell you you want the commanding officer who is constantly analyzing himself, and does not think his shit doesn’t stink.

[@CountDVB]

I expect Roboute may be brought to tears at seeing Lion again and the Lion will give him a much needed hug

[@matthewconner7800]

I just want to see Bobby G say “by the way, I saw your old sword, carried by a guy in black armor and calling himself Cypher.”

[@jonharrison9222]

Um. Guilliman knows there were loyalists in the Iron Warriors and traitors in the White Scars. He gets nuance and mitigating circumstances. Plus he’s a pragmatist.

[@kccustodes2618]

It would actually be more grim derp if some traitor DA 10k years ago is a big deal now.

[@ElectricalExistence]

there are even traitor ultra marines so what is he gonna say? its the fault of chaos that any of them turned traitor and the misjudgment of Erda who got duped by chaos and scattered the primarchs. i think had she not done that the big E's plans would have gone a lot smoother, but where is the fun in that?

[@ElectricalExistence]

also there is no way the inquisition does not know about traitor dark angels and or ultra marines.

[@kccustodes2618]

@@ElectricalExistence Exactly, I always felt it just stupid the behavior the DA over the "fallen". They have done some really scandalous stuff because they are so hung up on it. This was one reason I never could get into the DA that much, but now this returned more mature and totally relatable Lion might be my new favorite 40k character. I cannot wait for more novels about him and how he sets the DA straight.

[@silent_stalker3687]

@@kccustodes2618you have this. Alpha legion: we were made last so we are the template Dark angels: we were made first so we are the template of what space marines to follow. No legion debating for that spot. So… is the alpha legion going to be the proud example of what space marines are to follow?

[@jakebaczik7785]

Guliliman might be a little surprised, but would shake it off and do what he could to salvage the relationship with his big brother for the survival of the imperium and humanity

[@DeathWatchChampion]

Robust Girlyman woke up to a room full of mutated demonic space marines, an inquisitorial retinue led by a human psycher, a DEMON OF THE EMPEROR, ALIENS, a new asshole in the middle of the galaxy, and was immediately worshipped by all of the humans around him. I don't think surprise is on the table anymore

[@ryansauchuk7290]

Lion: The planet exploded from chaos Rowboat: Do you have any idea how little that narrows it down?

[@slackeratlarge575]

Legend tells of the Lion berating Russ for this failings after the siege of terra. Failing to stay by the emperors side. Failing to kill Horus. And failing to return for the final Battle to protect the Emperor. All the same failings that the lion himself has.

[@Blue_Maxxx]

Or did Gulliman deduce has happened to the Dark Angels on his own? Gulliman is a primarch and probably one of the most analytical characters in 40k. Did he interact with Cypher on Tera?

[@BM-wf9uf]

Guilliman likely suspected something was amiss with the DA when he met Azrael. But they've always been a secretive legion, even during the Great Crusade. Guilliman did not get the chance to have a proper conversation with Cypher. We know Guilliman felt uncomfortable when he saw The Lion sword, as we know Guilliman was the one who broke it. Cypher escaped from the Shadow Cells during Khorne's invasion of Terra. So Guilliman was never able to interrogate him.

[@drewjohnson-85]

⁠@@BM-wf9ufBut Guilliman also has access to much of the information that the Imperium has on every subject, including whatever secrets the assassins of Temple Secretum has hidden. He may have found out from them or put it together from multiple sources.

[@drewjohnson-85]

@maltheri9833 Yes but have they been 100% effective for all these centuries? We don’t know that for sure.

[@GOLANX]

​@@drewjohnson-85 how good is the Imperium's record keeping? Inquisitors who ask too many questions wind up dead, files get lost by "Accident", ships go missing... there is enough for the Imperium to know the DAs are hiding something, but what that something is, is not worth investigating.

[@_NutcasE_]

@@drewjohnson-85 state of imperium speaks for itself, No one know the real number of Black templars except High Marshall Helbrecht. No one knows about the fallen or inner circles of the DA. Hell most DA chapter marines dont know about the fallen until they reach certain level of veteranship or rank in the circles. the reason why these secrets are so well kept is because it's not hard to keep them. Communications in the imperium are shit and most people who see Fallen just assume they are loyalist DA like Son of the Forest showcased. While true the DA Chapter has dark green colorscheme their Successor Ravenwing chapter still holds the original black and red. It's really not that hard to keep a secret in 40k universe because imperium comms are a fucking nightmare. thanks to this majority of the universe doesnt realize that the Black templars are nearly legion sized. or that DA are traitor hunting.

[@potandpoliticswithmr.broph1420]

Imho The Lion never would have hid it from The Emperor in the first place. If he hadn't been incapacitated he would have handled his business in house and then immediately gone to tell the Emperor ( who was still somewhat able to be communicated with for centuries after interment) and let him decide if the Imperium as a whole should know he had fallen Marines and purged them like some other loyalist legions or if it needed to be buried so deep even Tzeentch couldn't find it. As for what he does now I think he has to come clean to Guilliman because they need to deal with whatever the aftermath of Arks of Omen is going to be.

[@scatterthewinds3126]

I feel like he would've kept it a secret like he did with the wolfen curse.

[@joeford5181]

The Lion: Look brother I blew up my home world because.... Guiliman: Who cares.... This Imperium is much worse any way and Jaggy had much more traitors...

[@Raist474]

We need more stories and lore on the 42M Lion. A problem with a lot of videos like this is we are honestly just spitballing, and the majority of what we know is old news from the 30K era that might not even be pertinent anymore. Honestly surprised there isn't more of 40K Lion already.

[@kccustodes2618]

100% agreed! More lore about this new and totally relatable Lion has become my primary interest in 40k. I am honestly shocked that we have not had anything more yet.

[@NueThunderKing]

I guess they are waiting for the DA refresh before they reveal more lore about the Lion.

[@brianjohnson5272]

Star wars went for 20 years between ROTJ & TPM its the wait that sharpens desire for content.

[@chuck2703]

I think he would unless it'd lead to the destruction of his legion. It's more likely that he'll keep shut with what the dark angels current actions to save them from the consequences of what they've done. I think he'll feel like it's his burden to carry because of the secrecy was what he left his legion

[@CrapLuckSimon]

I'd love if they just started doing oldman shit. Nodding off in chairs, complaining about their primarch sciatica, ect. Lion: "Some of my sons betrayed me" Guilliman: "What?!" *cups ear* Lion: "I SAID SOME OF MY SONS BETRAYED ME" Guilliman: "SANGUINIUS IS A DAISY?.. No no noo he was a bird remember?"

[@Scythwolf]

I so look forward to their conversation, both having an idea about what the other one hides: Lions fallen and Guillmans own imperium. Lion: Hey, bro. You got anything you wanna tell me? Guillman: No, you? Lion: Nope, nothing here either.

[@akumaking1]

“Brother, can you keep the Fallen a secret?” “Can you keep my relationship with Yvraine a secret?” “Deal” “Deal”

[@georgedevries3992]

What relationship? It was a mere polite, conversation. A single encounter.

[@wolfbane7497]

​@@georgedevries3992it's just a joke dude but that's just part of a meme that's been going around that everyone thinks that G-Man wants to have a relationship with an elder

[@Fuzzycat16]

@@wolfbane7497 The joke is getting old. VERY old. 40k needs new memes.

[@georgedevries3992]

@@wolfbane7497 Oh, I am very aware of it and how it came to be, mate. It's just that this joke, this meme, has kinda overstayed it's welcome without much, or rather, any concrete basis. I mean, it was one serious and lustless conversation. Not to mention that Yvraine wanted to actually control Guilliman through that armor. Blackmail him for her own agenda. Typical Eldar. So yeah...

[@wolfbane7497]

@@georgedevries3992 what is really not any real material look at my previous comment you can make fun of Lionel Johnson waking up as much as you want

[@thundercrash4775]

I don't think that the Lion will keep the Fallen a secret from Guilliman. But I also don't think that's the same as volunteering that information. As far as the Lion is concerned, his sons are his responsibility, and he is handling the matter. The past is, and should remain, the past. If Guilliman asks about it, I think that the Lion will tell him. But only if Guilliman asks. So the better question would be: does Guilliman already know enough TO ask? EDIT: I completely forgot about Guilliman knowing about Cypher. Yeah, this could come up.

[@brockwilkie6022]

Or G knows enough to NOT ask. I could see a look being shared between the two and the Lion keeping things in house to save G from the added responsibility.

[@MiniatureMasterClass]

I'd love for Gman to already know via Cawl and not care cause he has far bigger issues to worry about.

[@Fuzzycat16]

Guilliman :" The Lion will come around when he is the most needed.. I got paper work to do"

[@growlanserdragoon721]

Guilliman is already dealing with the Ecclesiarchy and high lords who were plotting against him. He needs allies so he can right the imperium and he has gone to great lengths to do so. I believe he will try his best to keep the Lion on good terms as he needs allies and as we all know Gman will already be devising plans for how to deal with all traitors/defilers when the time comes

[@brianjohnson5272]

To be fair, there were only 6 high lords plotting again Gulliman and in a tenth of a second that became 0.

[@fukkami6204]

Regardless of the secret being leaked on not.... all I want the reunification to mimic their meeting in the unremembered empire. It would be happy times.

[@spike.strat1318]

I think Guilliman knows already. Most of the loyalist bloodlines have had some instance of individuals or chapters falling to chaos. keep in mind the lion is probably seeing this all through a lense where the HH is still fresh and recent. Guilliman is seeing it with 41st eyes.

[@jasonthomas9596]

In truth I don't think Gilman would give a s*** one way or another. And he definitely takes that in about what happened to caliban and some of the others.

[@jasonthomas9596]

But again gentleman needs ground forces I think he would be a lot happier letting the lion start taking more tactical operations

[@jasonthomas9596]

And this would in turn allow Gilman to take a more strategic role. It would be a win win for the imperial.

[@maxstr]

Gillyman has learned of most of the darkest secrets of the 41st era Imperium, I don't think anything is going to surprise him. He even suspects Cawl of creating a true AI, possibly the biggest sin of the Imperium, and he's only annoyed about it.

[@mirzubair8291]

At the end I think the Inquisition as a whole couldn't have existed if they had found out about Imperium Secundus and the fallen. Those idiot would rather have the Imperium fall only to investigate and call them Traitor.

[@aaronnelson4929]

Even tho The Lion and Guilliman had a rocky past, I think a lot of stuff is going to be over looked. Because up until now Guilliman under the impression that he was alone... ... Although I think the line is going to have a few choice words for his brother about breaking down legion tho.

[@jasN86]

As a Dark Angels fan from my childhood days, I hope ELJ tells Bobby G. Bobby G isn't an idiot, and he'll figure it out eventually now that he's back and sniffing corruption out. Why not gain the trust and admiration of one of the few souls who can counter your might in the Emperium? Also, 10,000 years is a long time. I'm sure they've both grown up. I'm sure they both realize that, as remaining brothers, they must stand with each other; after all, that's how their full strength will be reached. FOR THE GLORY OF THE EMPEROR!

[@dimitrisk.9356]

Gman probably knows .. Cypher and him had a long talk with a specific sword that Guilliman broke present

[@1982jeepcj8]

GUILILIMAN may already know! Consider this, he was pulled on the threads of a puzzle for a long time, there is ample evidence that Dark angels has a history of suddenly disappearing mid task like a kitten chasing a Lazer. It's not hard to figure out what that something would be over 10000 years. Guililiman, could have figured it out, puzzled out the why, and is just waiting to see if the Lion will level with him with trust and honestly. Especially, since it doesn't matter other th a n the Lions pride is stained. Every Legion had members fall.

[@OrcWithBow]

I would love to see them hug when they finaly see one another

[@justinmaitland7335]

Girlyman is acting in the Emperors stead. I believe he would tell the Emperor, I would be surprised if he withheld this; for girlyman can't sacrifice the loyal and risk them also turn traitor. The lie will live on, the first never fell.

[@DarthBop]

Johnson's legion didn't betray the Emperor. Johnson's legion betrayed Johnson because Johnson was half-stepping getting to Terra to help the Emperor.

[@thesleepylion399]

I think he tells Roboute but maybe the more important question is what happens with the gene seed? What is the threshold for considering the seed to be viable for future primaris?

[@maxstr]

Bellisarius already made that decision on his own, including using traitor and lost legion gene seeds

[@thesleepylion399]

@@maxstr ah, well maybe an interesting conversation to re-hash (with some playful secrets by Cawl)

[@Noodlzz]

I think g-man knows but he will wait to see if the lion tells him. Wouldn't be surprised if he blames caliban on a select few traitors and it scattered his sons when they broke caliban and he's reuniting them

[@Jawmax]

It's a BIG if, but if El' Johnson does tell Guilliman he would say. "I understand, but we must not speak of this again. The Inquisition would have all your sons, your risen and those that hunted them put to death. It could break our father's crumbling Imperium. This Brother, is a secret we shall both keep."

[@nicolasberg6828]

Well, no. The Inquisition already has a good idea of the Fallen, as the GK threatened to turn against the DA if they hunt Grey Knights that are former Fallen. Furthermore, there is no reason to hunt the Unforgiven - many legions had their traitors and still fight side by side with inquisitorial forces. Last but not least: The Inqusition hunting the First Legion is like Hans, Sergeant of the proud 194th DKOK Regiment charging a Bloodthirster - brave and doomed. The First Legion provided cruel and final endings to threats long before the Inquisition even existed. In some ways the Inqusition was the attempt to fill the footsteps the Lion left after his disappearance

[@ronanchristiana.belleza9270]

@@nicolasberg6828 Not to mention other Chapters that has a grudge against the Inquisition i don't think they would tolerate it, as it would the inquisition was abusing their power too much against the 1st founding

[@benedictcristobal9466]

i doubt the inquisition would do anything to the DA since they still remember what happened to them during the months of shame and that was against a PRIMARCHLESS space wolves

[@misterdepresso3223]

"My homeworld was tough as it but it became a traveling hell planet" yea Roboogie would have sum questions if he discovers it

[@vincentkerr3983]

Wouldn't Guiliman already know that's something weird is going on with the Dark Angels thanks to his dealings with Cypher? He, and several Fallen, did accompany Guilliman to Terra after all so at the very least, Roboute knows about the Fallen.

[@riktor3005]

Hows Guilliman going to react to the fact that Johnson can 'forest walk' across the galaxy, seemingly teleporting from place to place in an instant. It sort of makes Lionel Johnson overpowered, as how many forces can just pop in and out of just about anywhere?

[@ShadowGhost0117]

To be fair, we don’t yet know of he can do more than a handful of people. It might be restricted to whatever is in his immediate vicinity since he has to guide them through shadow Caliban.

[@riktor3005]

@@ShadowGhost0117 Yeah, but how many bad guys can handle a Primarch, especially one as good at fighting he beat Leman Russ in a 1v1, just popping in wherever he wants? He doesn't even have to know where you are, he just tells the watchers to 'Take me to x" then bam, he's walking in on abaddon while he's on lunch break.

[@jocsanabdala9456]

The Lions secretiveness makes sense to me regarding the lions experiences of chaos in Caliban. He knew of forces that hunted for prey deep in the mind and heart of beings. When looking at the pride, arrogance, fanaticism, resentment, and other internal flaws of his primarch brothers, it was wise- in his eyes- to keep everyone at swords reach. If Fateweavers temptations were familiar to him during his childhood days in Caliban, he must’ve known that other things would whisper to his brothers more successfully. The lions secretiveness was a problem for others, but I think he was on the same vibe with the emperor: “Speaking and thinking of chaos only makes it stronger.”

[@tylernelson2218]

Keep uploading bro!

[@ordohereticus5530]

I hope the Inquisition comes after the Dark Angels. Mainly because I am hoping it will somehow continue the Sons of Dorn and Russ vs Inquisition story line.

[@Happyface714]

Imagine the lion at the head of the inquisition I mean isn't that what he doing with his son's

[@Archon3960]

I believe that this exchange will go down like this: - "Okay, a bunch of my sons betrayed me and I redeemed some. But I need to follow up on the rest of them." - "Oh. Okay." - "Wait, that's _all_ you have to say?" - "Brother, I've seen how many Space Marines turned against humanity. Most of them from _my_ geneseed. Why do you think this is such a big deal?" (Meanwhile, at GW.) "Oh, crap. We gotta make real non-retarded storylines for the Dark Angels now! What do we do!?"

[@doombeagle4262]

He will not only reveal the secret of the fallen, but also admit that he has been married to Fulgrim for the past 8000 years, and they are planning to start their own interior decorating business.

[@viridisxiv766]

the imperium at large can never know, it would be the death of the dark angels chapter and all their successors. i like to think the lion will tell roboute but i doubt he will. the converstation would likely be a case of not telling him because he doesnt need to know, or itll be the lion, all choked up and trying to confess it in a show of brotherly trust or whatever and roboute will just say "i know". and itll be left there. no need to actually say it, he knows, understands and forgives it all. maybe the emperor told him, maybe he worked it out for himself. the big blue would definately forgive him either way.

[@timothylyons5686]

If the Lion blames it all on Alpha Legion then Gulliman will just shrug his shoulders and say ' thats okay'.

[@jsmiami]

I think the fact that Guilliman could replace the angels with primaria weighs in on it and Guilliman may want to know what the angels have done to keep the secret

[@RandomPlacebo]

You can’t forget the mistakes of the current inner circle in the legacy of caliban omnibus, they messed up pretty bad.

[@kenfaunt7930]

I think the lion can’t really hide it as I think Dante and the blood angels have pretty much figured it out anyway. I mean his personal retinue “ the risen “ a bunch of dark angels that none of the current blood angels know. Plus Robute has already had an interaction with Cypher so I think that cat’s out the bag if he doesn’t already know the truth then he has bloody whopping suspicions. Also don’t forget that old Robby already has experience of Johnny boy being a tad economical with the truth with that whole Kurze landing on Ultramar incident lol 😂

[@slip6699]

Considering half of their brothers fell to chaos I don't think Guilliam can throw any stones.

[@mduckernz]

Huh? Chaos Ultramarines? Never heard of them

[@emirhaneksioglu4503]

He probably means the primarchs

[@damobeck1]

@@mduckernzbrothers not nephews.

[@tomchristensen4634]

Guiliman uses knowledge as a weapon. He already knows the details.

[@patrickbateman69420]

I think Guilliman already knows about the Fallen - I mean he's already met Cypher for one thing. Even Dante is himself going to be at least somewhat suspicious about where these new Dark Angels they've never seen before have popped up from. I reckon The Lion wrestles with himself for a while about whether or not tell his brother, and when he finally does, Guilliman says "I know of what you speak" (whilst secretly testing him to see if he'd confess) before vowing not to out him to the Inquisition etc. And then they have to figure out the mystery of Cypher and the Lion Sword together, which is where they will potentially disagree on how to handle things.

[@johanstinson]

I think it will hinge on whether the Lion keeps it to himself or if he tells Bobby G about it unprompted.

[@FnRenner]

Johnson keeping the secret if Caliban would take such utter, such sheer narcissism that the Lion may just implode

[@ryansauchuk7290]

Lion: you broke up my legion!!! Rowboat: maybe if you didnt get dunked on by a planetary garrison youd have had a say

[@frederickdavidson270]

I think as soon as the Lion and G-Man get in a room together privately, the Lion will see the strain of carrying the Imperium on Guillimans face and immediately realise he was wrong about him from the start.

[@liamgaskin2598]

With Guillimans mind, I assume he already knows and will just wait to hear it from the Lion himself.

[@capatialvinjohn2753]

Turning the tables, how would the Lion react if he sees GMan with Yvraine.......

[@TheKnivingComplex]

Older wiser clear vision now, "I took care the problem with my sons, Lets see Pops" oh and if Malchy's Inquisitors want to visit, there is a airlock ready for them if they have problems :)

[@bunnygals1661]

You’ve basically laid out the fundamental story arch. The Dark angels impress upon the Lion how important it is to maintain their secrets. The Lion and Guilliman meet randomly on the battlefield. They proceed to have your standard hero on hero fight, resulting from whatever misunderstanding. After a suitably epic clash they sort it out, embrace as brothers and spend some time catching up. In some stories they would go to a pub, or maybe a ball game, but they’re space marines so they are going to spar. The Lion will have a chance to reveal the truth of Caliban to Guilliman but then hesitate. Then stuff hits the fan. Bring in whatever big bad, maybe a demon primarch or something. Then season that with a radical inquisitor. The secret comes out, the brothers rage at each other but they’re too busy fighting for their lives to really get into it. They are forced to fight side by side. Through the crucible they are each faced with their own personal failings. They also experience a new perspective on the others missteps. At last they find themselves in a situation where the only way to survive is to resolve their differences and fight together. They kick some ass and forge an unbreakable brotherly bond in the process. The final scene is them back on the sparring pitch fighting as only brothers can.

[@kevinoliver3083]

A radical inquisitor, such as Astor Sabbatiel? Who's alive in M42 and is still convinced the Dark Angels are Heretics.

[@johanstinson]

That's all just too cliche for me. Youre probably right though, but i hope not

[@gonzokules7794]

Their complicated relationship in my opinion is much deeper than for example Horus and Sanguinus. Sanguinus was everybodys darling but what defined a true bond are the dissonances between two brothers and how they are able to get rid of them. Telling Guilliman the truth could be a redefiniton of their respect for each other.

[@johanstinson]

In my head canon Bobby G already knows but he will use it as a test to determine how trustworthy Lion is. If Lion doesnt say anything, it will lead G to distrust him, if Lion comes clean without prompting, they'll deal with it together.

[@volairen]

Son of the forest told that the lion had regrets about not trusting guilliman from the start.

[@tomdolan9761]

He needs Guilliman as an ally more than ever….he isn’t going to risk distrust by prevaricating

[@Danterag5]

Johnson had better not start snitchin'

[@allunt8170]

I think with all the problems Gilliman is handling right now his reaction would probably be " Brother, for Emperor sake, it's been 10 thousand years. nobody even knows what really happened back then, except for the glorious banana boys behind you. and they really don't care. So please be a good sport and go unalive some demons or something! Also please drop by to see Pops, he would "appreciate" that!'

[@trathanstargazer6421]

All joking aside and regardless of what comes after. Once all the public stuff is done and the two are finally alone together. I imagine the first words out of Lion's mouth will be. "You look tired, brother." To which Guilliman will have a small mental breakdown.

[@combomaster666]

Is Guilliman going tell Lion how he had Cawl create thousands upon thousands of primaris marines from ultramarine geneseed more than any other thus making his own sons the most numerable marines in the imperium by a huge margin ? He already got accused of creating his own legion in the Dark Imperium books. Also regarding the inquisition coming for dark angels. What will they do ? Not only Lion uniting the unforgiven chapters and unleashing the full power of his legion will be more than enough to deal with inquisition even without inquisition hating chapters such as space wolves joining the party. But there is also absolutely no way Guilliman would turn against his brother because some of dark angles went rouge. Guilliman has no love for inquisition, ecclesiarchy and the imperial cult. He can't dismantle them on his own but he won't turn on a loyal brother.

[@ordohereticus5530]

Roughly the same amount of primaris were created from all the bloodlines. The only reason the Ultramarines are so numerous is because before the Ultima Founding they already made up the majority of chapters.

[@AzrealMaximus]

There are already Primaris DA, even some getting close to the inner circle

[@combomaster666]

@@ordohereticus5530 Then why not create more for other chapters if they are already lower in numbers rather than maximising your own ?

[@ordohereticus5530]

@@combomaster666 Guilliman had no say in what bloodlines Cawl focused on. He was half dead in stasis.

[@yeahmacius1]

Lion's willingness to forgive non-chaos fallen brings another thing to me: would he accept Cawl's plans to found chapters with traitor geneseed. Every traitor legion had loyalists, Cawl himself said it - science wasn't at fault, geneseed wasn't at fault, the primarchs and individuals were.

[@10957558]

I just wonder what is the importance that the first fallen he meet is a uncrowned prince Zabriel. And Zabriel was hand crafted by the Emperor himself.

[@stephenjdutton]

If Guilliman directly asks "Hey Lion, did half your legion turn traitor and cause you to blow up your own planet?" then The Lion may answer honestly. On the other hand if he doesn't ask that question then The Lion will just keep quiet. No need to actually lie if you're not even asked.

[@bosskaiju4834]

Frankly, those two being reunited will do wonder for the both of them, with Guilliman no longer having to bear all of humanity's hopes on his shoulders alone and the Lion having at someone from the old Imperium for which he fought still being here, and able to relieve him of some of his regrets, as such, I think he'll tell Guilliman the truth about Caliban, because he need to open his heart to someone about it.

[@ctjmaughs]

It is going to be funny when Gulliman reveals his council with the Xenos

[@helgerudolph4035]

I am also super curious about one of the last scenes from the plague wars / Dark imperium trilogy when Rottigus Rainfather gave the chronicle of Imperium Secundus to that one Historian. Now that El Jonson is back and travels together with Dante and the remaining Blood Angels AND the Reunion with Gullliman is near everything is set. And I mean set for the beginning of the new civil war because all parties that partizipated into Imperium Secundus are SOON coming together right in time to get judged by the Inquisition for Betrayal. Just as Rottigus intended … that is real clever writing :)

[@Joni_Tarvainen]

Neither of them are the same they were during Imperium Secundus and neither was the Imperium itself. From both practical and strategical reasons it would only make sense for Lion to tell about Fallen, Risen and Unforgiven to Guilliman. I mean the fact alone how some of these warriors have been hunting Astartes since Horus Heresy would be insane advantage for Guilliman to understand before any further crusading. I'd love however that it would be some random Custodian recognizing one of the Lion's companions from Heresy times and that ringing some bell on Guilliman's head as "Hold on brother"- moment.

[@BandOfHarjaps]

Cypher is still out there and unaccounted for.

[@obi0914]

Bobby g: I know it took great courage to tell me brother. I also have a dark secert. Lionel: Oh, it can't be any worse than what i told you. Booby G: Well.... I want you to meet a elder woman...

[@e-san6111]

I think Guilliman would be understanding. He and the Lion have changed over these 10k years, bot to mention, Guilliman has worked with loyalist elements of traitor legion, notably Barabas Dantioch and his men.

[@Icyvoayger73]

I feel like Guilliman already knows or has an idea of the fallen. I think hearing it from the Lion and maybe some of he redeemed would go a long way.

[@ArcaneMaiden]

...it all comes down to a trade. Guilliman accepts the secret, but Lion will tolerate Guilliman's preferrence for Aeldarian Dairy Products. Guilliman will tolerate Lion's preferrence for Celestial Divine, Sanctioned Mammary Produce. Azrael will have to share his foei grás w/ Zahariel. The Rock's nightclub will re-open, w/ franchises in Hera. And Asmodai will take anger management classes w/ *_HIM, CATO SICARIUS._*

[@titaniumwolf1123]

Didn't realize "truth" had an "f" in it lmao. Trooof

[@AnimeLoverAMVs]

I think even if he does tell Guilliman they will both want to keep it secret from the empire, Guilliman must know by now the kind of reaction that would get, maybe this is setting up a civil war later, where they find out they lied about that and the unremembered empire

[@tomtricity]

From the business side, I think GW is going to put it all out there between the Lion and Bobby G because they are using the Lion's return to fix what has become a dumb storyline. It was cool 20 years ago and 100 less books but now that everything is so much more fleshed out it just seems silly. They had a chance to fix space vampires and werewolve with Primaris and didn't do it. I don't think they'll make that mistake again. The Dark Angels as a more Arthurian flavor seems like it has more longterm legs.

[@MWH12085]

"Fix" is rather generous. These problems existed during the Great Crusade, but the Primarchs kept it on the down low due to fears of ending up like 2 and 11 (allegedly). But the thing was, they were DESIGNED that way so you really can't "fix" them

[@willtaylor754]

Space vampires and space werewolves are VERY cool.

[@attemptedunkindness3632]

*How it Should of Gone* GW: We are now doing true-scale Space Marines and a overall range refresh. **Release Primaris** Fan: Oh, that's cool I guess. **Life goes on** Might buy some of those, might not. *How It Went* GW: _In the beginning before the scouring Gabagooliman and Nonina Bella Cawl and mama mia they got the Emperor's secret sauce and hid it from everyone for 10k years and marone then a elf puttana becomes a goddess and brings Ragute back just in time for the Pasta Primavera marines to be al dente. They'sa perfect ina everyway, throw out your old stuff they don't even speak Italian_ Fan: What's happening? I'm disturbed by this. **Looks at all of the marysue mom's spaghetti GW just vomited** Stay away from me and my Emperor's Children you degenerate!

[@disgruntledtoons]

Whaddya talking about? Individual Astartes may turn traitor, but the legion doesn't become traitor until their Primarch falls to Chaos. That didn't happen to the Lion. There is no reason for him to be afraid of telling the truth. "Long time, no see, Lion. What have you been up to?" "Rooting out traitors in our ranks." "Tell me about it."

[@texasallstar6969]

I am surprised that Guilliman hasn't done something about the unchecked power of the Inquisition.

[@obnoxiouspriest]

I think he's got bigger problems. Even though they ironically embody the threat of the enemy within, they're still a useful tool. The devil you know, and keep your enemies closer and all that... Like the Ecclesiarchy they're pretty baked into the fabric of the Imperium at this point. Although, a schism involving those two factions would certainly make for an interesting storyline.

[@Bardghost_Isu]

​@@obnoxiouspriestProbably also has plans rattling about, but knows he needs to be in a more stable position to be able to make moves against the Inquisition or Ecclesiarchy. Maybe seeing a brother come back might give him hope they can muster enough forces to put one of those organisations in check.

[@BloodyArchangelus]

You dont understand now Inquisition work. At all

[@hawk4192]

Maybe it's just me, but... why does it matter? Why would Guilliman care or give it a single thought, especially given the current events in the setting?

[@KaoKacique]

Lion: "Brother, I need to confess.....There were traitors in the Dark Angels" Guillman: "As expected, a lot of the other loyalists also have it, and the traitorous legions had loyalists that turned to our side too, not a big deal" Lion: "Wait a minute"

[@pinkmustafa2699]

I'm looking forward to guilliman name dropping cypher and his part in the journey to terra. Surely lion will want to bring him back to the rock for a lil debrief and a catch up

[@andarchy1386]

I think he tells Guilliman but they disagree on what to do after that

[@jcp3666]

You are forgetting that Cypher met Roboute before. Maybe Roboute already knows

[@lupaswolfshead9971]

Guilliman to the Lion. Yep been there done that. Gman has had to fight and wipe out entire Ultramarine successor chapters who turned to chaos in his crusade.

[@Artecius92]

It's a been while since the video was posted. The Inquisition already know about the fall of Caliban and the Fallen. They also know that the Dark Angels operate as a legion still hence the Grand Master of the Dark Angels and successor chapters only having Masters. They don't do anything to the Dark Angels because if Guilliman and the Ultramarines turn traitor. The Dark Angels are the only ones that could annihilate the entirety of Guillimans Ultramarines and their successor chapters if they did turn or decide to do Imperium Secundus 2 electric boogaloo. (What happens when you use his geneseed almost exclusively for a long period of time). We do know that the Dark Angels and all it's successor chapters do equate to a Legion in strength and that they still have lots of DAOT stuff hiding in the Rock. Obviously only high up inquisitors know about this so some basic ones get sniped off by the Dark Angels every now and then for getting too close to the truth.

[@eviljagtech]

Dont forget about Gmans xenos dealings that brought him back.

[@speedygogo]

I think Gulliman already knows. He isn't stupid and would notice all the changes to the other legions. Let's not forget tha Roboute has an equally dangerous secret in his formation of Imperium Secondus. The revelation of that would brand all Ultramarines as traitors. Lots of the Primarchs reactions have been miswritten. Roboute would be able to recognize legions from fallen brothers and other Primarchs. Little to no attention has been given to this. A story where Gulliman has to work together with legionaries from a traitor bloodline would make for a very compelling story. The writing has been blind to these things and tells stories as if the most observant and analytical primarch is clueless.

[@britishpalmtree9268]

The points you make about the inquisition etc does make me think, much how Dante has become gullimans number 2, I feel that Logan grimnar of the space wolves will become the lions second

[@erih2934]

As much as I hate Space Wolves from the books, I would love for Russ to get the same evolution we saw with Jonson and the two legions to get a shock realizing that their Primarchs actually ended up being close after the HH. 10k years of misunderstandings brought to light by someone who was there. I'm not sure if Jonson would share the Fallen with Guilliman, but if Russ really is the next in line to return I wouldn't be surprised to see Jonson sharing it with the Wolf King - after all it was the Lion who kept the secret of the Wulfen even after the duel.

[@orcvsivstitia7608]

Not only will Lionel Johnson tell girly boy girly boy is going to look his brother in the face. Put his hand on his shoulder and then quote Han Solo "I know" Maybe even add a little more love by saying " brother, there shall be no empty plinths in our Imperium"

[@blackadder564]

Guilliman : How is that homosexual nightclub in your basement going? Lion: How do you....?

[@vicariousgames8264]

I'd like to see gman offer Lord Commander to the lion but the lion realize that gman is the right man for the job and then continue to work together

[@Darksmirk1]

Theory time. I think Guilliman already knows. Hes been awake longer and been on a crusade. You're telling me he hasn't come across a Fallen squad? Also he's worked with Cypher. Most likely talked with him and knows what's going on. Finally, he's talked with Big E. More than likely, Guilliman has been told who is and is no longer loyal. I believe Johnson will tell him, fearing what Guilliman will think, only for him to tell Johnson, he already knew. Might be some brotherly bonding and so on lol.

[@usernamunavailiable]

Gets me how no fallen have been found by any other legions by now. Why has no fallen tried to contract other legions, or Terra? I mean they have to have some clue of what is going on around the galaxy. Or were they just randomly spread out on backwater worlds with no communications or space travel.

[@ace12342]

Can the secret even be kept at this point? I kinda assumed it was already out of the bag given that the Lion had some of the fallen with him when he linked up with the Blood Angels. It seems like they would have to kill Dante and a significant portion of the Blood Angels to keep it under wraps at this point.

[@thundercrash4775]

It kinda depends on how much of the secret you tell. Sure, Dante and some of the Blood Angels know about a small group of Dark Angels accompanying the Lion, and that they wear black armour instead of the (to them) normal green. But it's also explainable without revealing the events of Caliban. Black is the original colour of the old Legion. Would it be so strange for the Lion's personal guard to adopt those colours once again, to honour their Primarch's return? There is also probably little harm in revealing the Lion's passage through time. If that is possible, is it so unbelievable that some members of the Legion of old were also brought with him?

[@BloodyArchangelus]

Goodluck to kill Dante. Mephistone can fight with non psyker primarch on its own.

[@BloodyArchangelus]

Dante does not care about the Fallen, he accepted more tainted space marines to fight for his cause, than most of the fallen. He respects Lion choice and blood angels have own dark secrets too. Why bother. @@thundercrash4775

[@ace12342]

@@BloodyArchangelus That's a good point, even if they wanted to kill Dante it wouldn't be easy. I think the Lion could take Mephistone but he'd have to work for it. On top of that I doubt the Lion would want to, Son of the Forest showed that he had a lot of respect for Dante. It would probably be Azrael or Asmodai that would want to try killing Dante to keep the secret.

[@ace12342]

@@thundercrash4775 I hadn't thought of it that way. I just assumed the Lion would have told them what was going on, but you are correct that it's not clear how much the blood angels know. They also probably revere the Lion enough to not ask too many questions.

[@georgegray5535]

The Lion stated in the The Lion son of the forest his one and only duty is to protect humanity.

[@LCliffhanger]

There isnt really any reason for Lion not to tell Guilliman, it's not like he'd be announcing it to the whole Imperium, there's nothing to loose by telling Guilliman the truth and everything to gain in building a repour. There's also no reason for Guilliman to judge the Lion, nothing that's happened since Calibans fall can be blamed on him because he wasnt around and he didnt leave by choice. There's no reason to judge him for what happened on Caliban because Luther being corrupted by Chaos, supressing any attempts to make contact beyond Caliban and supressing any attempts to put an end to Luthers plans, eventually resulting in Luther convincing his men that the Lion had turned on them, was not his fault, and much of that picture can be supported by the Fallen who've joined the Lion and personally knew varying amounts, but also learned over the course of "Lion Son of the Forest", that Luther started and staged the whole thing. So yea, when they meet, Lion should be open about what he knows and what he's been through, and Guilliman should be overjoyed to have a brother back but also to see the Lion so matured, I honestly wouldnt be surprised if Guilliman admired him even more now, at least on a personal level. Especially given that Lion has generally changed for the better after all he's been through. I also think it would make sense for the Lion to be a bit of a big brother for Guilliman because, while Guilliman has matured somewhat in a way Lion will appreciate, he's also gone through a lot that would benefit from some comradery.

[@justinanderson2460]

I do think the Lion will tell Guilliman. Many have said this perfectly well already but both are changed men. Not entirely for the better in some ways but, in ways that I really do believe will help them put aside past issues and truly be brothers. Even if for no other reason than that they both are smart enough to know that true unity and trust is what is needed to save humanity and the time for anything less is over. Besides, at the end of the day, I think that finally meeting each other will bring up enough feelings of joy - in the simple fact that they are not alone in this galaxy wide disaster - will mitigate a LOT of potential issues between them. Especially on Guilliman's side. I'd even be willing to believe that Guilliman would be so overhoyed to see another loyal brother (ANY brother) returned that he frankly couldn't give a shit about the Fallen - especially considering that Gulliman of ALL people KNOWS that rhe Lion's own loyalty is so utterly beyond question. If the Lion tells Guilliman about the Fallen and his plan to gather those still loyal while purging the traitors, no matter what else Gulliman might think, he will KNOW that those the Lion redeems are loyal and no risk to the Imperium - because if there was even a HINT of traitor in them, the Lion would have killed them on the spot.

[@SoulCrusherEx]

I don't think the Lion will reveal that secret to his Brother. Because it's what makes the Dark Angels in 40k the Dark Angels we know and love on top of that the Lion is a very pridefull man and character that alone will cause him to keep it hidden

[@johanstinson]

If he doesnt it shows zero character growth. At this point there cant be any secrets between the Lion or Big G if they're going to work together

[@wessellrustbrook7831]

it's the Lion so the answer to your question at the start is no, especially knowing the Lion this will comeback to haunt him and break any good standings with Gorillaman.

[@lisawatts-co5pt]

As you mentioned their will still be rivalry and tension between the two. Johnson will have a beef to settle about the breakup of the legions and might possibly have an issue with Guilliman proclaiming himself Lord Commander. Confessing the truth to Guilliman would be basically handing him the trump card to play in any disagreement so no I do not see him confiding in Guilliman. Doing so would also implicate his modern sons in their dishonesty.

[@ronanchristiana.belleza9270]

Well they're still both part of creating the Imperium Secundus and both are pragmatist so Johnson still agreed to it