The Making of the Modern Middle East: Lawrence of Arabia and King Faisal I

[@Ben55583]

I only discovered this programme now, almost 7 years after it was broadcast. Both Ali Alawi's book "Faisal I of Iraq" and Scott Anderson's book "Lawrence in Arabia" stand next to each other on my bookshelves. I have read chapters from both books. But after listening to this very interesting discussion I am sure I will now read both books in full. As someone who has lived and worked in the Arab world (the Levant) and has an affinity for the people of the Arab world I hope that the optimism by both professor Alawi and Scott Anderson with regards to a more stable and just future for the people of the Arab world will be realised.

[@secallen]

Stability and justice are not in the arab vocabulary. Well, they are in the vocabulary of words - to the exclusion of much else - they're just not in the vocabulary of action.

[@ajarnwordsmith628]

Yes, "a more stable and just future for the people[s] of the Arab world" to include, if you please, Arab Jews (800,000) who were expelled from Arab lands in 1948, most of whom were rescued by the modern State of Israel.

[@VanlifewithAlan]

Brilliant discussion - I meant to listen to this in four or five stages whilst doing household chores - it was so good that I had to listen in one go!

[@david2284180]

It's taking me 59 hours to get through this 1:28:26 video. (my response to the panel criticizing TEL's literary ability)

[@phmwu7368]

Astronomical Eclips in Warfare: July 05, 1917 Thomas Edward Lawrence aka "Lawrence of Arabia" used his knowledge of astronomical phenomena to carry out a daring night raid under the darkness of a total eclipse of the Moon. While the Ottoman defenders of the Red Sea port Aqaba were preoccupied by the Lunar eclipse, T.E. Lawrence and his troop of fifty Bedouin successfully pressed home their stealthy attack on the inner city of Aqaba - Jordan. No wonder why he became such an icon of leadership.

[@dennisesplin3285]

History is bunk said Henry Ford. Arguably the cast is constantly changing but the play stays the same.

[@scotva]

Very interesting, It might have helped if it discussed the role of the British with Saudi family, there rise to power in Arabia and their clash with the Hussein Clan. The British were playing everyone off against each other and making promises to all that could not be kept. The use of 'diplomatic' jargon in all these 'agreements' opens the door to differing understandings of what was 'agreed'.

[@deeznutz3958]

That’s because nations can’t survive habitual sell outs or treason. And it’s the way empires have been doing business since the beginning of empires.

[@sophieha6478]

Thank you so much!!!

[@michaelsweeney8229]

I always assumed Lawrence claimed in his autobiography that he knew all about Sykes-Picot, but actually wasn't aware of it at the time.

[@bigjim10235]

I think he knew.

[@melvynlipitch9698]

fascinating insight ,but the otherwise brilliant Ali Allawi stated that Faisal never contemplated Jewish immigration to Palestine a "political" project, I assume he thinks they were simply to be absorbed within Arab land. This is contradictory to the Faisal/Weizman agreement which clearly denotes an Arab state alongside Palestine and furthermore this agreement incorporated the Balfour Declaration which is confirmed within the agreement. The codicil which Allawi has read in its original Arabic form is pretty much the same as the "reservations" in the English text so I cannot understand Ali Allawi's conclusions on this specific point.

[@secallen]

Allawi is a wishful thinker who wants to wish away a real, functioning and prosperous state (Israel) by dreaming of an impossible fantasy state (United Arab Republic), Nasser's brainchild before he "lost the plot in the mid-60s".

[@peggygeren4169]

@@secallen Faisal did not sign the agreement with the British and Zionists until he had written his own addendum to the document, that his support for a Jewish homeland in Palestine was contingent on the Anglo-French fulfillment of all their agreements with the Arab Revolt. That became null and void in light of the subsequent total betrayal of the Arabs by the British.

[@secallen]

@@peggygeren4169 Faisal did not own the world. He and other Arab despots ended up in control of infinitely more territory than they had before predominantly ALLIED troops expelled the Ottomans. More Arabs fought on the Ottoman side. If the huge swathe of territory that came into arab hands after the war was not enough for Faisal, then that is between him and his psychiatrist. And of course the Arabs have managed that land wonderfully in the intervening years.

[@peggygeren4169]

@@secallen The agreements made by the Arabs with their British Allies were done on behalf of the signers of the Damascus Protocol, Faisal was one of them; some of the others were hanged by the Turks. The kind of govt Faisal envisioned can be judged by the Constitution of the short-lived Kingdom of Syria (that can be found in the appendices of " The Arab Awakening", should you decide to take a break from your racist trolling), and he is judged as having been one of Iraq's three best leaders, along with Bakr and Qassim. He was dealt a very weak hand - as all Arab leaders have been, and still are - but he played it fairly well, given that his choices were to be either a target, or a puppet, or an exile.

[@secallen]

@@peggygeren4169 You were doing well but then you lost your temper. Since you are not interested in discussion I will bid you farewell.

[@kingharryannis]

Saint John Philby is a very interesting chap. Was the boss of Lawrence in Palestine. Hidden from history. Why? Got Rockefeller ,Standard Oil into Wahhabiland instead of BP. Read 'ARABIA' and 'the Heart of Arabia;a record of travel and exploration' by Harry St. John Bridger Philby ,1885-1960. Also known as Sheikh Abdullah. He went native. Became a muslim. Bought a child sex slave from a slave market , died in Lebanon. His last words were,'I'm Bored'. Hidden from history. Was not a zionist.

[@Dino-qw8tm]

Amazing.

[@AllenbysEyes]

I respect Allawi and enjoyed his book a great deal, but I wonder how Feisal would have overcome the perception of being a tool of the British. The other Hashemites never really overcame that stigma; both his brother Abdullah in Jordan and grandson Ghazi in Iraq were assassinated. Not saying it's a fair characterization of Feisal, and Allawi eloquently argues otherwise, but especially in the post-Nasser era it was very widespread.

[@jamdoodles]

This was really interesting.

[@rhodaseptilici3816]

I much appreciate mr allawi's knowledge of the middle east however i need to point out a grave error in his presentation romania was never part of the ottoman empire unlike bulgaria and sergia that were romania was never occupied or under ottoman rule it paid tribute to keep its independence this is a serious error thank you

[@Rational375]

A wonderful and informative session indeed. What is even more interesting as well as fascinating... that both Faisal and Lawrence were in their early 30's when they were involved in the events that will change the future of the Middle East. What was not discussed is the fact that the man who hobnobbed with kings, advised Winston Churchill, generals at the age of 30 enlisted as a lowly airman and was posted on the Afghan border in present day Pakistan. When in 1919 he was involved in a airplane crash in Rome, Victor Emmanuel, lll visited him in the hospital. Supposedly, he was shy and perhaps deeply troubled that he needed to escape the 'limelight' and get away from England. The later assertion is also controversial. While on the Afghan border, Amir Amanullah Khan was overthrown only a few month before he was abruptly recalled back to England. Did he have something to do with removal of the anti-British Amir in Afghanistan is not clear.

[@mickwillson3239]

Wow that's very interesting, that needs further investigation, the perennial narrative has always been that Lawrence was pro indigenous folk!.thankyou for that view mate i would like to find out more on his trip there👌

[@serpentines6356]

Yes. Me too. Would be interesting to learn more about this. Glad things like this are still on YT.

[@albertarthurparsnips5141]

Granted, Western muscle had a great deal to do with shoring up the Hashemite and Saudi regimes, but, not at all sans a great deal of local enthusiasm, and, more to the point, precedent. Crimea's Khanate, Ottoman Turkey, Bokhara's Emirate,..Yemen's hereditary monarchies,..republics scarce and scanty,. It's insulting, surely, to Middle Easterners to declare their history to've been nought but the dupe of the Occident.

[@malachi5813]

how come you guys dont mention gulbenkyan?

[@alanshurtz345]

What about Gertrude Bell?

[@mok-f3u]

Either Mr.Allawi is extremely devious or naive to believe that Lawrence has the best interest of Arabs at heart.

[@rup54]

Does anyone? Least of all the Arabs themselves.

[@peggygeren4169]

@@rup54 Professor Allawi is an Arab, right?

[@gusibrahim6961]

It's quite ironic that photography as simple as it was then but very selective! It only shows the poorest part of Iraq, no photographer shot the lavish part of Baghdad the one I've seen at least!!!

[@sharonholdren7588]

Why no captions or transcript?

[@Delta4ms]

Good stuff.

[@lesliebeben4932]

Do you believe that Lawrence was responsible for bringing the conceptual basis of machines to the Arabs? Certainly telephones and television were out of the question at the time. Improvised explosives capable of taking out a Turkish troop train are another story altogether. Once this Englishman explained how this tactic could be used has it been utilized ever since to exponential effect?

[@AllenbysEyes]

+Leslie Beben No, I think you can credit the Turks for that. The Arabs already had telephones at the time. Lawrence recounts having telephone conversations with Sherif Hussein shortly after his arrival in the Hejaz. As for military tactics you may have a fairer point.

[@youaremylifepictures4680]

He was actually the second child. Don't know why Anderson said he was the third.

[@William-Marshall]

Napoleon said history is lies agreed on.

[@jordanfan5896]

0 seconds ago Jordan Fan, Prophet of Environment, 范楚漳，環境先知：What puzzle me most about T.E.Lawrence are: (1) Why he refused to become the barber 💈 of the Arabs - a “barberless people?” (2) Why T. E. Lawrence refused to be a TEAM player at the end! (3) Also, why he as a transportation expert who could drive/ride a Hejaz camel 🐪 or blew up Hejaz railroads but don’t know how to drive/ride his Harley Davidson motorcycle 🏍? (4) Why his army superior Captain Gibbons, who Lawrence had being “monkeying around” with, had such short arms?

[@johnnolan6497]

A little people ......greedy barbarous and cruel....to paraphrase the movie

[@Cheifez21]

Not true he was advising fissal

[@theroadupward]

Good stuff. Interesting how the British "Great Man" version of history comes out in the questioning. Great Man being on the lines of a military conqueror? Time we evolved our views on warrior chieftain hero (UK)

[@jhangfk]

When Lawrence was arrested by the Turks, he was sexually abused by the Turk. He enjoyed the sexual contacts with Turks. I read in one the book but I can not verified that it is true or just accusations.

[@VanlifewithAlan]

Arshad Farooqui I have also read that he may have invented this story or that it is exaggerated.

[@yaakovmacales2826]

Ali Allawi is wrong about what Iraqi King Feisal could have accomplished had he lived another 20 years. Allawi views him as a potential leader of a moderate form of Arab nationalism that could have prevented the radical Nasserite and Ba'ath pan-Arabism which morphed into tyrannical military dictatorships when then collapsed into radical political Islamism. This Feisalian moderate Arab nationalism would have been ousted the same way it was under his successors. First of all, the Arab defeat in the 1948 war which resulted in the creation of Israel lead to the discrediting of the existing Arab leadership which was accused of selling out the Arab cause in the war due their supposedly being under the thumb of the old European colonialist powers. Feisal would have simply been viewed as a British puppet and he would have been chucked out. Secondly, Feisal would have had to face the centrifugal forces that ultimately destroyed Iraq and Syria and he would not have been in any position to do anything different. The Arab world's choice is either iron-fisted dictatorship or anarchy. The civil society that would have been needed to form this Feisalian regime did not exist in Iraq nor anywhere else in the Arab world , as Allawi himself admits in this film. Finally, although Allawi claims that Feisel reached out to the various minorities, claiming they could be part of this moderate pan-Arab "umma", hatred of the various minorities that exploded out after decolonization and which has lead to the Christian and Jewish populations fleeing the various Arab countries would have happened anyway.

[@secallen]

That iron-fisted dictatorship is apparently quite workable in smaller, tribe-based units, e.g. the UAE. Allawi himself names the solution to Arab politics: (tribe-based) fragmentation - the natural state of Arab society throughout history.

[@peggygeren4169]

Very "orientalist" of you both.

[@zthetha]

"I'm not sure these three places are on the map... at least Damascus is...?"chirps the master of ceremonies or whatever he conceives himself to be. And this is a super intelligence outfit... intelligence squared? "Akaba is not on this map!" the smart arse continues. "Oh yes it is!" sing out the audience like kids at a pantomime. Intelligence squared...? Intelligence halved more like.

[@Iammram]

1:13:40 Mangina alert.

[@colindingwall8171]

The moderator is completely biased against Ali Allawi. Interesting discussion spoiled by prejudice.

[@ДмитрийДепутатов]

Walker Robert Robinson Amy Williams Paul

[@dasglasperlenspiel10]

Regarding the first author: although I am very sympathetic to anyone ho devotes the time and effort to writing such a detailed history, if the author knows hat he is so unable to speak coherently in public, he should prepare a talk that, um, so, doesn't require him to, to, to-to-to, --um, improvise his, his, his, talk.

[@ctb2756]

This is how « posh » people speak... It’s their way of obliging us to pay attention to their conversation.

LAWRENCE WAS A BRITISH SPY love to love little brown boys yes a gay but only with children Lawrence like MANY a Closet QUEEN SHAME tell the truth.

[@richardgrove7040]

Where'd you get that? Lawrence was a pedophile? I've read several bios and never once got that. According to several he actually liked to be beaten and once he returned to England had a man he paid to do it. Lawrence suggests this very strongly himself in 7 Pillars when he tells the story of his capture in Deraa, in which he more or less confesses that he received sexual pleasure from his flogging and sexual abuse there. I wonder, if you do have a point, if you could make it better, perhaps? Accusing someone of pedophilia is fairly serious and so probably requires more than a poorly edited and completely uncited post. If you aren't saying he was a pedophile but simply suggesting he was gay and condemning him for that then the shame is yours alone. He led a guerilla revolt against the enemy in WWI... spy? Even if true I don't see how that's something that should disgust me. But since actually he was a soldier there was no secret. If he was a spy he was a spectacularly bad one as many of his moves seem designed to secure Arab political freedom from the West, and other of his actions made him a major celebrity.

[@richardgrove7040]

*****, please. Don't start. It was Normandy in winter in a medieval castle. It was cold and everyone shared beds, it was not necessarily indicative of a gay relationship. Richard and Philip sharing a bed was akin to a high-level government photo op, like saying "we're such buddies we sleep together like family." Politics was quite literally a family affair back then, so it was a very pointed political statement they were making. I'm not saying they definitely didn't have a sexual relationship, I'm just saying you have not a shred of evidence for it and this salacious speculation is pure drivel. As for Lawrence, have you got evidence? I only remember the boys he took into the Sinai, and nothing I've come across (outside you) has suggested there was anything untoward transpiring there. "He had little use for women" ...so? And this insisting on calling him "Chapman"... we know it was his name, but this conspicuous belaboring of the point is tiresome. Look, if by "connect the dots" you mean "fill in the blanks with unsubstantiated gay porn sex fantasies," well, I can't get with that, man.

[@bernicenuhfer-halten5646]

***** Opus Dei

[@KenDay]

+Peter Knopfler #spotthetroll

[@davidhoward8270]

Peter Knopfler = nasty little troll.

[@williammcbride4560]

"Modern"

[@AFKAwesome]

Um uhhh *stutters*

[@susan137]

Stuttering doesn't decrease the man's knowledge or intelligence ... but centering on the stutter instead of the content of message say a lot about those listeners.

[@secallen]

Ali Allawi totally deluded wishful thinking and so polite of the chair to let him ramble like that. Would love to hear his motive for a unified Arab state. I can guess...

[@peggygeren4169]

Did you guess independence, stability, prosperity, security, peace?

[@secallen]

@@peggygeren4169 No: despotism, instability, poverty, insecurity, war - as is common in every multi-tribal Arab state. The only ME states that offer security and prosperity are the ones predominantly ruled by a single tribe, e.g. the former Trucial States of the Gulf... and Israel.

[@peggygeren4169]

Double clutch?