The Mindblowing Revelation In The New Cosmology Chart : Grimoire of The Shadowlands

Start your free trial at squarespace.com... and use code TALIESINEVITEL to get 10% off your first purchase.
Vote on our new website feature HERE: tande.tv
Here is a link to a gif of the Cosmolgy Chart 3D Comparison if you want to share it or whatever: media.giphy.co...
The new Grimoire of the Shadowlands book features a new cosmology chart in which contradicts that found in World of Warcraft Chronicle Volume 1. There are differences in the positions of the cosmological forces and their relationships to each other, and their visual representations. What does it mean, and what can we learn from it? Taliesin goes through all the new features of "The Broker Chart" and reveals one MINDBLOWING revelation which shows that not only are the Shadowlands chart and the Cronicle chart not so different, not only do they not contradict each other, they are quite literally the same chart
+++ Taliesin & Evitel +++
New Website with EVERYTHING: www.TaliesinAn...
Twitter: / taliesinevitel Patreon: / taliesinandevitel
Twitch: / taliesinandevitel
T&E Merchandise: taliesin-evite...
Theme Music by Jay the Bard: @Jaythebard

[@TaliesinEvitel]

As discussed in our last video about the Blizzard lawsuit ( kzbin.info/www/bejne/sKLHYqh3qdanirM ) this exploration of the Grimoire Cosmology chart was already made and needs to be released for contractual reasons (the sponsorship slot). We know it's not great timing, obviously and we apologise for that. In any case, we are very proud of the video, and hope you enjoy some WoW lore that wasn't touched by *certain* hands

[@FreedomAndPeaceOnly]

Ngl that cosmological shart looks like a ripoff from D&D. ; )

[@__Insanity_]

@@FreedomAndPeaceOnly You do know that Warcraft as a whole was inspired by D&D, right?

[@FreedomAndPeaceOnly]

@@__Insanity_ Course I know. Almost nothing in Warcraft is orignal but an altered version of something original. Still with all the sh°t going on with (Activision) Blizzard in the last *years,* just everything they do feels additionally less impressive. You know players did not wanted this truly. Of course the players asked themself about the different realms in Warcraft for a while now. But this is only recently. For the longest time players wanted different things. ° Housing ° Guildhalls ° playable Quel'Dorei on Alliance ( NOT VOIDELVES, *HIGHELVES* ) etc.yadayada And Blizzard keeps pi°°ing in our faces and do whatever they want. Then all the 'newest' scandalous behaviour that came out. In all honesty, I really want to see those people lose everything and experience the miserable end they deserve. . If I say the cosmic shart looks ripped off I do not just mean this analytically. I mean _" Look - this lame path°tic l°sers have once again done something uncreative._ _I wish at least the 200 highest ranking company members would get struck by lightning or a meteor or something. "_ The Blitzch°ng case won't be forgotten. F°ck them all.

[@TrueMeKazik]

@@FreedomAndPeaceOnly looking forward to your own idea of universe without any "ripoffs" or inspirations from other media. Create something trully original, then you will earn right to complain. Btw, this chart is just a bunch of circles. Blizzard didnt invent circle = rip off

[@__Insanity_]

@@TrueMeKazik Don't bother, this particular person is not worth your time

[@violetmontgomery5627]

The cosmology angles piece was some Big Brain Energy and I'm so impressed by you two

[@pebrockk]

You're impressed by their ability to go on reddit?

[@russ_t_blade]

@@pebrockk random redditors are the only people who can figure things out? If someone on reddit figured this out then surely you know other people could too lol

[@DigitalKlamped]

@@russ_t_blade nah they literally copied this idea from some Reddit post

[@russ_t_blade]

@@DigitalKlamped lol ok sure bud

[@DigitalKlamped]

@@russ_t_blade cringe

[@Bar_Avigal]

Oh God damnit that perspective flip was brilliant. Tali is going to be even more insufferably smug than usual over this, and what's worse is he'll have every right to it!

[@Vesrayech]

Can you imagine another WoW panel admitting that yet again Taliesin was right and canon? Would be beautiful content for the channel lmao

[@JessiBear]

WoW would be so much better if Tali and Pyromancer were in charge of the story.

[@teleruin8686]

It is... but I made the same claim 3 years ago : kzbin.info/www/bejne/inTRmIuropiqiJo Why did no one think it was brilliant back then ?

[@josh29221]

@@teleruin8686 probably because only 199 people saw the video. It was along the same lines but without the comparison to the broker chart as it obviously wasn't out yet. If you're trying to get into more content creation it'd help if you used screen recording software and a mic, rather than recording on your phone. Good catch, though. It's cool seeing people realize this even so long before the new chart came out.

[@teleruin8686]

@@josh29221 hehe... It was not even 199 back then I think. maybe closer to 30. I was really just fishing for some "honor and glory", since I had that exact idea that long ago, but had no audience to pick it up. I am not a content creator really, at least not that kind of content. Only type of content I create is content like this : kzbin.info/www/bejne/omiteGiObr-LhtU

[@colinray4186]

the 3D perspective makes a load of sense, considering how Torghast mirrors ICC.

[@ChrisJones-qw7bn]

Speaking of. Mournblades. Arthas' was destroyed in ICC. But during that entire raid certain classes remade another mournblade for OUR use. But it seems to have been forgotten....

[@moscanaveia]

@@ChrisJones-qw7bn It's not an actual mourneblade, in that it cannot have been made with Domination magic. There appears to be something more to the actual Mourneblades that most likely Tyrion and Darion would not be able to replicate. Besides, the actual Frostmourne was reforged during a certain expansion a couple years back. I'm more interested on whether those will not reemerge during this one, just like Xal'atath also had a delightful story part to play during BfA.

[@timar6868]

Yes and I think you hit the nail on the head there this is exactly why the universe is have to be seen upside down from each other because they literally are as the towers literally prove that they are flipside of each other and therefore you would just have to flip the cosmology chart like he did but I think he’s doing when I did that but you are correct

[@russ_t_blade]

That's actually a great point with Torghast and ICC, now with this cosmology chart thing. Damn.

[@nimander5483]

@@moscanaveia Based on the Description of the final part of the quest, there might actually be some domination magic in there: "The Lich King's throne once served as his prison. Kil'jaeden himself crafted the vessel of icy crystals from the twisting nether, its sole purpose to hold Ner'zhul's vengeful spirit. When Arthas struck the crystal with Frostmourne, he released Ner'zhul's soul, allowing it to merge with his own. Splinters from that impact are now scattered throughout the citadel. I shall require those shards, held only by the Lich King's most powerful servants, to seal the power contained in your blade."

[@zeronxepher]

Holy crap. Taliesin is right! He's right!

[@leifroarmoldskred6370]

“The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka' but 'That's funny. '” - Isaac Asimov.

[@daemonsalad]

"eat my shit and hair" - Taliesin

[@brunohommerding3416]

Exactly, its way mor exciting to find answers that raise new questions than any deffinitive answer to everything

[@Burnspark69]

Human civilization will end with some scientist saying, “that’s funny”

[@EloquentTroll]

Classical physics: we've almost got everything figured out Relativity and Quantum physics: what up science nerds, we about to wreck this fools entire day!

[@MrBrightside925]

I can't speak for everyone, but I really needed this this week. After such awful news earlier I'm so glad to see Taliesin's giddy optimism about geeky lore things. Thanks Tali, we love you ❤

[@MrGusajer]

i concur, really need this :D

[@FranciscoSantos-lw8nz]

Totally agreed!! Thanks for continuing to make WoW and its story OURS!!!! ♥️

[@lilijagaming]

Came to the comments to write exactly that but you've beaten me to it ^^

[@bluemoonstone67]

Ditto

[@an.illusion]

Yeah, you've beaten me to post exactly this. Thanks Tali! It is an awesome work and you should be proud of it.

[@darkmatter411]

I'm normally a bit protective of what I know to be "Fact" in lore but that 3d rendering was actually fucking spot on best lore theory/speculation/whateveryou wanna call it you've ever actually done

[@tylerblue9691]

Unfortunately they were far from the first to find it lol

[@MilesTheFox44]

@@tylerblue9691 So on a planet of 7 billion people only 1 person can have an idea? It's been shown so many times that people think the same ideas all the time independently from one another.

[@DISTurbedwaffle918]

Considering how much WoW deals with interstellar travel, it makes a lot of sense for this to be how things are oriented spacially.

[@DISTurbedwaffle918]

@@tylerblue9691 There is nothing new under the Sun, so quit your bitching.

[@VentrueMinis]

I really like this. It's clearly not a retcon, just another in-universe perspective and I love how you detailed it!

[@lukeluckynblue1873]

:D ye but try to explain this to people who think that wotlk was wow best story and after that everything was terrible and didn't make any sence :D

[@Darkvega2k7]

As many fandumbs have proven to me over the years. Much like "mary sue", many use the term "retcon" incorrectly.

[@davidglore3007]

Welp, no shit and hair for you, then!

[@erikaw7767]

pretty much, i really dont think its a retcon, people are complaining about that, but it seems like they had every intention to show perspective of each cosmo power/realm.

[@stormstrider1990]

I think future expansions, where we explore the other cosmic powers, will each have their own version of the cosmology chart.

[@jaybirdflyin]

I freaking love this. It's like finding a map on the back of the declaration of independence. But better.

[@Wowreference]

That 3D perspective flip was brilliant. I would never have thought you could even align those charts that way, I just thought it was just random. Taliesin is a genius.

[@Runabou]

Hearing Pyro scream TITANS at Blizzcon still makes me piss myself laughing.

[@ignaciopizarro6351]

omg i didn´t recognized his voice but it makes so much sense lol

[@MatijaReby]

He was so hyped lol

[@sertaki]

Of, course. Who else could it have been? :D

[@adan_vd]

When Taliesin spun the camera on the 3D model viewer, my mind literally exploded and I basically had the same reaction as him lol

[@danielcamara8647]

Did it though? Did it LITERALLY exploded? Is there grey matter all over your celling?

[@Finny_.]

@@danielcamara8647 yes there is

[@pixeljauntvr7774]

That's not what the word "litterally" was create for.

[@adan_vd]

But my MIND exploded, so yes! Technically the abstract consciousness could have literally exploded :D

[@danielcamara8647]

@@adan_vd yeah... I realised that as I was typing but decided to be a dick about it hahaha :D

[@MarieAvora]

The ending was an absolute banger, the timing and abruptness is just *chef's kiss*

[@ciram9082]

I still don't get why people get SO MAD when the information given is shown in a different light. Great video, guys. Thank you for keeping my mind off of this whole week for a bit.

[@omedon666]

From what I can observe, it's a moving of the goalposts on the front of "winning" the lore game. Yes of course people will rush to say "nuh-uhh, my immersion," and some will be honest when they say that, but it's more likely that this sort of grousing is about "I almost knew it all!" Everyone wants to be the next Red Shirt guy who pushes up their glasses and "well, actually's" the devs on their own game. It's not ours, it's theirs, and they're allowed to do this to the lore.

[@besthobbit]

Because critical thinking isn't their strong suit.

[@cd4185]

I think you're pretending to not get it.

[@ryujin8754]

I think people are just mad that some few years ago Blizzard said "This is canon, that's how WoW cosmos works" and now it's "Actually it's a subjective point of view of the Titans and mortals". When you say something is definitive and change your mind later it makes it seem like a waste of time and (in this case) money. Not to mention the growing question of "If the first book was wrong then whose to say this one won't be the same?" which, again, leads to possibility of wasting both time and money on something that may or may not be crucial to overall lore and story. And seeing as the cosmology isn't really much of importance to the narrative of any expansion up to this point, barely giving players any hints of what is going on in the universe in game, little to no mentions/exploration on Light and Void (remember Void Lords? These beings more powerful than Titans, creators of the Old Gods responsible for destroying possibly million upon million of worlds in search of World Souls to corrupt to enter our reality and essencialy unmake it all? The things the community talked about for years?) and the eternal question of "Are they going to finally use it as a main plot point?", it comes to me as no suprise why people are mad or just don't care anymore. It's one thing where events and information ingame involve all this cosmic lore and another where you must buy a physical book or search wiki to get important information of things to come (hopefully).

[@Jon0007723]

Honestly the reveal at 18:00 with the music and everything felt like the crescendo of a movie that's just shown something universe-changing and all the characters have tears streaming down their face as they behold the magnificence of what they're seeing.

[@dkw.1055]

i got the same feeling from it. do you happen to know the title of the music? is it from wow? EDIT: nvm, i found it => shadowlands soundtrack - the undying city

[@TheEmosDK]

Taliesin just destroyed all the malding lore guys

[@deployed246]

So busy being angry about not being right anymore to realise that they are still right.

[@just_gut]

I'm that meme of the guy holding the microphone saying "Good" right now.

[@moscanaveia]

@@deployed246 They are not, because they still think one particular point of view can be objectively trusted above others. But when it comes to dimensional travel, I'd take the word of a broker over the word of an Azerothian scholar ;) And I'd take both these words far more seriously than the crowd who wants the lore to be absolute and unchanging and all written down in an out-of-universe encyclopedia

[@chrisplastow5974]

Mate when you did that camera angle change I lost my shit :O

[@Griffinmore]

With regards to the two different perspectives on the cosmology, that makes me think we could potentially see 4 more perspectives on that chart coming in the future.

[@ЕвгенийСемёнов-в2щ]

At least one more. We have Azeroth and Shadowlands, so - Emerald Dream next?

[@OlmanWillo]

@@ЕвгенийСемёнов-в2щ I think we have from order and from death so far in terms of where we are looking from. From Azeroth since it's in the middle you could have 6 total orders depending on the direction you are facing at the moment I think.

[@thezerb]

@@ЕвгенийСемёнов-в2щ Emerald Dream is part of the cycle...., so we already have 2 charts with it being part of the focal point, and anything else with it continuing to be the center is really just another perspective swap. What would be interesting would be to see teh perspective as seen from, say, teh void with light as teh focal point, or Order with Disorder as teh focal point... because that would allow us to, at least theoretically, start to position all of the 6 Dominant powers properly in 3D space..... 1 looking up, one looking down, both think they´´re right, they some guy looks in from the side and LHAO at their incompetence ;) What´s also interesting in that line of thought is that Brokers appear to have put themselves under Order in the "new" one... so, much like the titans and by extension of what we know about the titans, they are not really capable of recognizing other perspectives /viewpoints as valid, which also seems to be supported by the often condescending tone of their writings. So, it´s entirely possible that we actually now have 2 cosmology charts that are both FUBAR and that the Nathrezim (or some other force /entity that has a finger in each pie) will eventually present us something that 86es both of them xD

[@grandnagus5851]

Just seeing Taliesin letting the air out of the "retcon football" is so satisfying. Hearing the silence setting in after the people screamed bloody murder because of them smelling another major retcon realizing there is no such thing, also very satisfying. Thank you Tali for your awesome video.

[@twoffal8723]

"Eat my shit and hair" is my new favourite insult

[@kierynkelly7374]

Same lol

[@JustinSmith-ip8vf]

I literally LOL'd at this

[@daftkrunk7890]

cracking the eff up! hahaha

[@brandibradley5502]

Laughed my ass off at that!

[@randomgirlontheinternet404]

@@JustinSmith-ip8vf Me too!

[@Beowulf419]

Perhaps the explanation for the change in perspective is because of time? For example, when we look at stars, we're seeing the light they emitted from a long time ago. Perhaps the Brokers are seeing reality from an earlier, simpler time. Whereas our point on the "timeline" is farther along and Chronicle can better detail what entities exist in those elements. Wasn't it also hinted that our time in the Shadowlands going to have a "hyperbolic time chamber"y effect? Perhaps time flows differently through each section of the chart. Thanks again for your positivity and your hard work!

[@TaliesinEvitel]

Holy heck this is a good thought. Ogh man that is such a good thought

[@c.b.-]

Neither chart mentions Time, unless there is some facet of Time in the Cycle itself. Good point..

[@Princess_Kenny]

It might also be that the forces on the cosmology chart might be orbiting around the central fractal just like planets orbit around a star

[@cassandramuller7337]

Isn't time usually associated with order? If the brokers are part of our reality they would be aligned with order as well, as they themself imply. But what if the Shadowlands are the beginning of time and Azeroth the end. If you think about it, an unborn being is infinite potential as of yet not bound to time. Perhaps the worlds bound to the Shadowlands are worlds that are, like Azeroth, sleeping/unborn Titans. Perhaps our reality is a capsule connected to the other cosmologies but still seperate in a way. This would fall in line with the idea that the Shadowlands aren't true the true death realm. They are what counts as death in our capsule/reality. The idea that Azeroth could be linked to the end of time seems plausible in so far that us "knowing more" could be explained by seeing "results" and also Azeroth is bleeding and has a sword stuck in her. The idea that she might either die or awaken is not that far fetched. If she is dying and needs saving it might make for a good jumping off point into the greater cosmology. Or perhaps the brokers are at the end of time and the simplicity of the chart stems from the fact that they have realized that all we can ever truly know about the cosmology is what we see of it when and where it touches our reality (honestly while this would be cool, from what we've seen, that broker author comes across like a little sh*t with a superiority complex so it seems unlikely). Perhaps time is also that seventh cosmology that was hinted at. Or pefhaps the seventh cosmology is reality itself: mysterious, connected to all the others and yet inherently different. Honestly I'm just throwing ideas out there but I love speculating how all the puzzle pieces might fit (when we finally get them all)

[@lishuss]

Okay yeah that chart reveals was dope

[@dtulip1]

Tali: do you know who I am? Us: on the count of three "YOUR TALI -fishing-ESIN" :D

[@SergeDuka]

Sounded a bit cringy after the lawsuit revelations, but I know that Tali filmed this before that catastrophe had become public, so no complaints.

[@marlowepup9863]

@@Dooger414 pay attention; this video was already made and sponsored beforehand, so they were contractually required to release it.

[@danielcamara8647]

@@Dooger414 get over yourself....if they decide to continue playing the game it's their decision...watch their video of the lawsuit again... they said they dont k ow what they are gonna do from now on...

[@llandrin9205]

@@Dooger414 It's obvious you didn't watch the video where he discussed the lawsuit or you would know he is contractually obligated to release this one. Do you snipe at all content creators or just Taliesin?

[@timar6868]

Your evi? :p

[@FancyTophatDude]

The broker mentioning that the titan language uses the same word for "created" as it does for "ordered" makes a whole lot of sense. It explains how the emerald dream was "created" by the titans f.e.

[@luksen8998]

This was a really, really good video. Even the sponsor-section was tastefully made, so much so, that I didn't skip it because I actually wanted to hear about your website, and that veeeery rarely happens. And it was also just the video I needed after yesterdays video, even though it was a very important video to make in it's own right.

[@SWATruthiness]

Brilliant Tali. I'm not even playing at the moment (no drama, just haven't felt like it) and I still watch your vids religiously. Keep up the great work you two. I'll watch you guys no matter what you're playing.

[@balrogz5093]

I literally cried with happy geeky wonder when the 3d map unfolded....

[@valhrafnaz]

I absolutely love your perspective on lore and the way you approach it. For some reason that I don't fully understand, too many people seem to approach any information presented in works of fiction as accurate lore, even when the person telling us that information absolutely isn't omniscient, which then leads to cries of retcon and lore bad. As a person with a degree in medieval lit I always highly value your critical approach to all information about the world we get from the game and the way you try to have those fit together through proper analysis. I truly believe content like this is super helpful in developing those skills in others which modern education seems to be not too great at doing at the moment. Literary analysis is not an innate skill, but instead has to be learned and refined and I appreciate you bringing people examples of that analysis that they relate to more directly than old books they don't actively care about.

[@Phryke]

I got goosebumps when I saw the 3D chart

[@Miandey]

me too!

[@volodymyronysko3324]

The reveal of the 3D concept is so good, that there isn't even an option to downvote the shit out of it and I love it! Some jailer-level confidence, completely deserved though :)

[@cojomojojo]

I know it's a crap time but please dont' stop making videos about WoW, we're bigger as a community than everything that happened and I hope that we can rally and stay true to ourselves and support the people that need it rather than burning everything down in a fire of (justifiable) anger. Your content only proves that this game is loved and adored by people that play, make and dare I say it, live, for this game. It'd be terrible for one of the best parts of wow, us, to fall apart instead of healing and growing better.

[@dafire9634]

I like your Profile picture

[@pairaka984]

Well said.

[@ΦίλιπποςΚαρατάσιος]

I'm writing the exact same thing man in comments. Right now we have to prove what kind of game wow is and this lawsuit could prove beneficial coz after that they will definitely release some very huge things. I'm so hyped for future shadowlands patches and ofc expansion

[@eris9659]

There is a point beyond which still loving Blizzard is shameful and ridiculous.

[@hyperjgaming5768]

GENUINELY blew my mind. Ive NEVER had my "mind blown" before.... this is seriously so damn cool Tali I actually got so excited

[@HarrisonEast]

Loved the video and honestly, it's exactly what was needed, given everything else that's going on at the moment. Keep it up you guys ❤️

[@Zafarak]

As an Italian, I had to laugh when you mentioned Chiellini 😂 #Itscomingrome

[@TaliesinEvitel]

Lesser know fact, Taliesin's mum is Italian and the whole family always supports Italy in the football :)

[@Zafarak]

@@TaliesinEvitel 💚🤍❤️ I love this channel even more now 😂

[@whirledpeaz5758]

@@Zafarak Im from Oregon, and Happy the disrespectful anti American USA women's Football team lost.

[@spencerlively3049]

@@whirledpeaz5758 lol sure mate. being critical of one's government is the most patriotic thing you can do for your country. feel free to scream into the void though - that's sure to help Americans dying from hunger, poverty, and no healthcare.

[@NoEnvyNoFear1]

I needed this. To remind myself why I love this game, and the community. I love how you could tell in that other sad, angry video from the other day, Tali was still super excited about this and you could see some joy return to his face when teasing this video.. This game does truly belong to the community now, and what a community it is. Proud to be a part of it.

[@danielfuenmayor6420]

I don’t understand why they don’t put this in game , imagine going around Korthia collecting pieces of the cosmology chart little by little , it would have been great

[@briannelson3830]

They will just retcon one day making good memories into things we try and forget

[@KC-py5vq]

@@briannelson3830 o shut up

[@Escorducarla]

Put lore...in...game? You lost me. >.>

[@Caldaran]

Money.

[@AymenDZA]

Tali: "GO GO GO GO" *ad starts playing* I don't think that's what he meant KZbin !!!

[@AramisRamirez1]

I'm always impressed by your lore examinations...but even I marveled with this one on the 3D examination. Kudos. Also, thank you for posting this in light of ... everything. This vid especially was an uplift in spirit for me. I appreciate you both.

[@BootsDanielewski]

Been outta Wales too long, Tali. Your Gogogogogo is slipping. Edit: also the video is great, thanks for all you do, we know who you are!

[@krystlepeterson4071]

Absolutely amazing work Tali. Reminded me why I freaking love this game which I needed this week. The amount of thought that goes into crafting the lore of WoW is masterful.

[@RavenKnightmare]

Imagine seeing a visual representation of the cosmology of a fantasy universe and thinking it was meant to be viewed in 2D. As if the universe was 2D. I'm honestly surprised people are so hung up on the 2D representations. Good on Tali for once again being a clever bastard and carrying the community on his back.

[@HH-hd7nd]

It's not even a universe, it's a multiverse - the universe is what is represented as Reality/The Great Cycle.

[@Marqrk]

As Tali said, a lot of people just see something different from what they knew and shut down, assuming it’s a retcon that will destroy a lore piece that they loved. They stop being curious and just become angry.

[@HH-hd7nd]

@@Marqrk Well - it's understandable considering the countless retconns Blizzard has done over the years.

[@darthfinality]

@@HH-hd7nd is it really though? As the saying goes, never lose your curiosity.

[@YuriyTymchuk]

OMG, thank you so much for putting the thing in a 3D space. I always thought that it's the best way to visualize it, but you did all the job and explained it to everyone. Thank you!

[@HollyToadstool]

Well played, Taliesin, well played. This is why you're my favorite WoW content creator.

[@violetx9668]

Thank you for sharing Taliesin. Steve even makes mention of different perspectives at the end of that quote you're showing... Good job.

[@timar6868]

I really hope the rest of the Internet gives you credit for this chart you made in 3-D because that was brilliant and I really really think that’s around the same thing but most likely every other channel is going to do something different but really I hope other channels see this because this is really good

[@maryn.p.9759]

I think we all needed this one badly!!! especially after the news (You really don't have to apologise!) Thank you for staying up to 4am to do this! Thank you both for all your hard work!

[@korketre]

MIND.IS.BLOWN. Im sure Evitel will suffer for me writing this openly on the internet where it can never be taken away again, but you are REALLY CLEVER Talliesin! :D

[@jeremiahbrownlee2299]

18:00 Tali, you are brilliant. I love the music swell at that point.... and the giggle.

[@Gebirges]

I love how in the broker chart there is that giant snake that goes from his birth at LIFE to its demise in DEATH and back to LIFE as a bone snake which obviously represents the cycle of the Wild Gods and what Ardenweald does to them in the zone.

[@justicerainz]

I was wondering about that snake! That's cool!

[@Gebirges]

By all means it could be Hakkar with how often we've beaten him. lol

[@Redrung]

The snake symbol set up more question, it cycle of life and death , you die and go to after life , then you reborn again into new life. but what happen in shadowlands right now is anything dead stay dead. (Except wild god or necromancer thing) Shadowlands keep getting more and more soul, thats not quite a cycle at all

[@chaoslogic3745]

@@Redrung that's probably why Zovaal said "death was never meant to be chained" perhaps the Shadowlands was created as some kind of a greedy artificial afterlife system and "Death" itself like in the cosmology is an entirely different place which has been locked away since everyone decided to screw Zovaal and banish him

[@pwnedsocks]

it is two snakes, it is not an ouroboros, they are consuming each other. I take it as life and death continuely feed off each other.

[@Spidahman4283]

I love this video, and the fact that it came after the issues at Blizz means one of the statements you made at the end, more appropriate. Long story less long, when confronted with new information it is best to learn to take information, be curious, and make your reaction more calculated and less emotional in order to process the information properly and THEN assign the proper response to it. Great vid, I hope you guys don't stop because you help keep me invested in a universe that has been 17 years and running. Thanks for all ya'll do.

[@deathbower]

Alternative title for the video: Things are never simple and the internet refuses to accept this.

[@mihaimoldo]

simple in regards to what?

[@dumorte]

Things are never simple and the internet refuses to use their brains. It's easier to get mad at something than stop and think. MURICA.

[@mihaimoldo]

@@dumorte cool story but I'm asking what specifically are you talking about. What's the complex problem and complex solutions?

[@dumorte]

@@mihaimoldo you're confusing me with someone else

[@mihaimoldo]

@@dumorte my mistake. Since you're answering on behalf of OP feel free to answer it.

[@kuzahyoutubes8903]

Amazing stuff great elaborations and visuals. Especially the 3d modeling bit. Fantastic points made. Bloody brilliant stuff! Thanks for reminding us to keep an open mind and to stay curious.

[@jacoblanterman3776]

Taliesin solved it with science, and you can’t argue with science.

[@cyberbanshee]

Nicely done Tali! I expected the same thing before I watched your video, but maybe it's because I'm a 3D designer and I'm used to working with different points of view in projects ... Great and easy to understand explanation for those who lack spatial thinking. That's why I love your channel.

[@latjolajban81]

I actually figured it was something like this the moment they said it was "perspective". However I never would've thought to actually model it in a 3D program lol.

[@bowdagger]

This video reminded me why WoW is so special and why it's so amazing having you here. I will always be a fan of yours and be part of your community, but I just want to say I really hope you don't leave WoW. It's my home and having you in the community makes it so much better. The positivity you bring is so important to WoW. I respect any decision you make, just hoping you stay!

[@bonniew1992]

Exactly the way I feel, well said

[@russ_t_blade]

Take this upvote on behalf of my friend and myself.

[@pairaka984]

Here’s a hot take: Both charts are correct-and they’re both wrong precisely because they are told from a certain point of view. If you asked one of the void creatures what they’re version of it, it would be different chart again but probably with lots of the same elements.

[@Drakhesh]

As much as the shown perspective is downright fascinating, there is one issue with it. And it is, ironically, the same one discussed in the video - the issue of perspective. As many fans cling too much to the 2D perspective shown by the charts, so does Taliesin unnecessarily attaches the whole cosmology to perspective - a physical perspective. Light, Shadow, Life, Death, Order and Chaos were never physical in any regard - they are not planets, nor planes of existence, but energies. It is the relation between the forces that is the point of a chart - how Life relays to, say Chaos. It was never meant to be understood in terms of physical placement in relation to each other - after all they are outside of what a person within the world of Warcraft would consider a reality. The charts do not show 7 planes and how they are placed, it shows us the relation between most basic forces of universe. The difference between charts we should pay attention to is different. The "Khadgar perspective" shows us Light and the Shadow as two major forces of the universe, while the "Broker perspective" places Death and Life in their respected places. Here we encounter an issue that makes the two mutually exclusive. The consensus in lore was thus - two primordial forces, the Light and the Shadow clashed, creating The Great Dark Beyond, or space of you will, as well as the four other forces. But the Broker chart shows us the Death and Life, as the two dominant defining forces, pushing the Light and Shadow to the sidelines. That leaves us with three options: - The Chronicles chart is correct, Universe began from Light and Shadow, Broker chart is misinformed - The Grimoire chart is right, it is in fact Death and Life that are primordial forces that began all else, and Chronicles chart is wrong - Both of them are wrong, neither Light/Shadow nor Death/Life are solely responsible for beggining of all. Perhaps all 4, or even all 6 forces were at work from the very start, perhaps something else entirely was (is?) at work.

[@Kinnan011]

The eclipse within the life area tree is interesting

[@innorruck1]

I think its the sun (An'she) eclipsing the moon (Elune)

[@Yamidoragon]

It’s double interesting because 1. A sleeping flame is said to reside on top of the ‘sixth tree’ 2. The dark side of Elune (where the Darkmoon Faire supposedly is, with a visible Yshaarj symbol on their representative back design) has never been shown to us so far

[@DragynGirl]

That's the problem, too many people always think in 2D, black and white, never any shades of grey. This is the best video that proves one must learn to think in that "shade of grey" to fully grasp the nuances of... everything. A huge standing ovation to you, Taliesin!

[@ericbright1742]

I'm reminded of the scene from the Doctor Strange movie, where The Ancient One shows charts of Chakras, and then an MRI, and a few other things, and says that these are all different interpretations of the same thing.

[@robertb1633]

I don't often get got - but you got me good! I was never really that stressed by the charts not lining up, but showing how they DO was just brilliant!

[@219Hexagons]

first thing i thought when i saw the new chart was oh okay the great forces really only care about their opposite and aren't pally pals with each other which makes sense.

[@Chicimono]

What a fantastic video, loved your visual representation you made for cosmology chart!

[@Kiwicrack]

I dont even own chronicles, but the Cervantes exercise of casting doubt on the author and the fourth wall break inherent is pretty genius. WoW lore fans must hate fun if they got mad at this. 18:00 The SMUGS overdose omg. Also, good job Tali, wow.

[@marcelopivato1441]

I got goosebumps when you showed the 3d chart. Man... I want a broker or titan npc to show that in game.

[@russ_t_blade]

Mindblowing is right. That ending reveal was great.

[@dasmithmath]

Just took a break from planning the Introduction to Higher Mathematics course I'm teaching next semester, and watched this. Thanks, Taliesin, for alluding to two topics from the course: projections and planar graphs! Now I have to decide whether this should be an assigned reading.

[@n3cr0he11]

I upvote this video because I like Tali and Evi and dont focus on developers now :) much love from Poland

[@zushiba]

Not only is this video awesome, but it makes their decision to delay this video in favor of the video discussing the controversy way more impressive. Much respect! This is lore gold and Tali and Evitel could have easily been scooped by some else in the meantime. Yet they had the integrity to to delay this and discuss something that was far more important! I really hope everyone realizes just how much integrity and love for their audience that must have taken to do. Well done guys! Very well done.

[@JasperDD]

Blizzard story department: Excuse me, your not supposed to figure that out yet Lmao

[@bensweeney7560]

Excellent work. I have spent hours looking over cosmology charts for both d&d and wow, (which are very similar) I have even made a version for my own nerdy setting years ago. While doing so I found reconciling things in two dimensions was always problematic, to the point that I too used a 3rd dimension to create it. Despite that, the idea of viewing 'cosmology' from opposite sides of reality is a new one to me, and an absolutely fascinating concept. Well done sir!

[@ommy44]

This is, officially, thee single nerdiest thing I’ve ever witnessed in my life. It’s fantastic.

[@justinkoty5092]

Wow! This is amazing!! There is no retcon just looking at things at a different POV. If the writers didnt care it wouldn't look what Talesin showed us. This made me love wow so much more! I wonder what other PoV we will be getting? Bc this opens a lot I feel like for story purposes.

[@CerealforProtein]

17:10 - Tali has his house cosmology directions wrong

[@eskoplaysgames6179]

You set up the Great Symmetry Revelation so well that I almost paused the video to map them out in 3D before I realised you have already done it!

[@dreamonion6558]

yeah if anybody is interested in occult readings, I highly recommend checking that out. Its basically the same stuff like in every fantasy world and sooner or later people understand that imagination = reality. Then you're really out of the matrix. Thanks for those explanations

[@vickimaroney800]

I need to look for the qabalistic tree of life in 3d now!

[@fma0420]

Way to go Taliesin! Really wonderfully done. Good job thinking beyond two dimensions.

[@ssjonupants]

This was... wow. When you did the 3D perspective shift, that was mindblowing, Tali.

[@LordArthex]

i love that new chart much more than the old one and makes more sense

[@maskelive]

Tali, you mad genius, watching you flip the 3D model chart cosmos was mindblowing I proudly can say: I WAS HERE!! gratz for the good job!!

[@SuperToffer]

Did you make a 20 minutes video to discuss two pictures that are absolutely the same ?

[@Saimeren]

Tali, Evi. I appreciate all the effort you guys put into your videos.

[@Deoxsen]

BELL SQUAD WHERE YOU AT

[@rondiggitydawg2010]

Amazing, way to go Tali, u da man homie. I knew something was up , u figured it out, bravo again.

[@AlexPetrov88]

❤️

[@kylebultman8722]

as soon as i saw the glimpse of the 3d model, it all came together. great job taliesin.

[@thehermit8723]

Does anyone else misses Dadghar? I can't believe I am saying this but I miss the Apexis crystal hunting simpler times compared to the shitstorm that we are facing nowadays with Blizzard.

[@dafire9634]

You mean the dadjokes in legion

[@thehermit8723]

@@dafire9634 Yupp

[@dtulip1]

But have you noticed one of the caretakers SOUNDS EXACTLY LIKE Kaddy?...there's much to be done :D

[@j.p.f.4007]

Good job on the 3D Spheres. Brilliant work. We all knew you could do it!

[@Sol-mr1lv]

The first thing I thought when I saw the broker chart was litterally: "well, that's just the old chart but from a different side. I don't get why people are so upset." And then I thought about it and realised that people are uoset because they want to be upset, they don't care about being right, they just want to be angry.

[@themaverick898]

That camera turn blew my mind. Amazing work!

[@Maljurok]

The best Lesson that anyone can take from the Cosmology charts, as cheesy as it may be, is that all are connected given the right perspective.

[@Infernoblade1010]

The 3D layout you came up with was exactly what I was thinking when you started to compare the two. It is quite interesting.

[@Ooey3]

You sweet sweet SoB. Once looking at the charts side by side I had the notion they were the same but from different points of view in a 3d space. But you went so far as to build a digital 3d model and show this as evidence. This is perfect! I can share this with people and help them understand. You are wonderful! Thank you for doing the leg work on this.

[@ACGG4891]

I frickin' knew it! Thank you for making an actual model of it. It looks great!

[@SgtGuarnereDD]

That perspective change is a work of art. I applaud you for that.

[@howbownah]

Yes finally! I was watching stream when you gave a sneak peek and ive been antsy for the video ever since lol.

[@farphalgaming8515]

Fantastic, that line up of the two charts from different angles *chef kiss*

[@PsychKenn23]

Perspective! I've said that since I saw the new chart. Thank you for this!