The Missing Evidence for the Book of Mormon Battle

[@scriptureplus]

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[@TrellKennett-ib3ss]

@@scriptureplus ask VaxxiNielsen to share some of his money from vaccine sales with you!

[@Glen.Danielsen]

If you guys would like donated dollar, then be worthy of it. Reply to comments. And ‘Comments’ sections need to be cleansed of troll goo, hate spate, Evangelical heckle. We are thankful for your content, but we will not recommend any SC/BMC/SP/etc KZbin video work to our youth while you continue to insist on providing haters a forum in _Comments._ I have twice volunteered to moderate for you, and was blown off with a snarky email from your Chief Evangelist. Just Magleby sneer and smug-shrug.

[@woodystube1000]

@@Glen.Danielsen I agree with the first request. The second is called “censorship”, and no rational person should support that. We should all welcome differing opinions.

[@Glen.Danielsen]

@@woodystube1000 Not really. There’s no censorship in asking people not to defecate in your front yard. Or to clean it up when they do. No channel is under obligation to provide a forum for those who insist on misrepresenting (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,) or posting misinformation, distortions, insults, willful ignorance, and so on. That is the very reason KZbin wisely provides _TWO_ ways of dealing with it: to block a commenter, or to hide their comments. Censorship refers to governments, regimes. And free expression has limits and carries responsibility. Try posting pornography in your cubicle at work and see if there is ‘censorship’ there. There is such a thing as ‘religious pornography’; it is a known, understood term. Read KZbin’s Comments guidelines; again, there are limits. YT even allows me to mute someone in Notifications. Woody, hate spate and deceit are not welcomed by decent human beings, even though it may be part of Evangelical culture. Salutes to you anyway, friend of rend, vicar of vinegar. I suggest James 3 for thee. Now stay out of trouble.

[@Glen.Danielsen]

@@woodystube1000 Not really. There's no censorship in asking people not to defecate in your front yard. Or to clean it up when they do. No channel is under obligation to provide a forum for those who insist on misrepresenting (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,) or posting misinformation, distortions, insults, willful ignorance, and so on. That is the very reason KZbin wisely provides TWO ways of dealing with it: to block a commenter, or to hide their comments. Censorship refers to governments, regimes. And free expression has limits and carries responsibility. Try posting pornography in your cubicle at work and see if there is 'censorship' there. There is such a thing as 'religious pornography'; it is a known, understood term. Read KZbin's Comments guidelines; again, there are limits. YT even allows me to mute someone in Notifications. Woody, hate spate and deceit are not welcomed by decent human beings, even though it may be part of Evangelical culture. Salutes to you anyway, friend of rend, vicar of vinegar. I suggest James 3 for thee. Now stay out of trouble.

[@James-z5m4m]

The church does not take a stand on the place of the hill, I like the Heartland point of view. There is only the one hill.

[@lukeslc-xd8ds]

???

[@drmay]

The church has taken many stands that this is the same hill. Only once archaeology and dna have proven them wrong has the church backtracked and moved the goalpost.

[@JoyceZabriskie]

Dewitt Clinton first governor of New York in 1803, gave a speech concerning the area of Palmyra. It was being opened for settlement and there was bones on the ground and weapons if I remember the talk. He alluded to the people having the arts, knowledge and were better cultured than our native Americans. It was a good speech. Remember Joseph wasn't born until 1805.

[@raymondswenson1268]

You listened to this speech yourself? Please cite a written record.

[@JoyceZabriskie]

@raymondswenson1268 I read it but can't remember the source it has been several years. Have tried to Google it without success. I'll keep trying as it is a great speech

[@Sharethejoy24]

Following. Very interested.

[@masterbulgokov]

@@raymondswenson1268 Yes - citation is absolutely essential for such an extraordinary claim.

[@johnchandler1687]

Maybe early Viking settlements against Indians. Makes more sense than the fairy tale of Joseph Smith's making.​@@masterbulgokov

[@travishubbel8349]

What about the Jaredite swords mentioned in Mosiah 8:11? "And again they have brought swords, the hilts thereof have perished, and the blades thereof were cankered with rust".

[@danhoen4129]

Yes, this is a huge problem because iron and steel are the only types of metal that rust. So not only do we not have evidence of multiple enormous ancient battles (that would be considered some of the largest battles in human history), we don't have any archaeological evidence to suggest ancient Americans had ANY iron/steel making technology, let alone enough to outfit armies numbering in the millions with armor and weapons.

[@liberty4392]

You are not correct Dan. Many types of metal corrode with rust. Too name a few, silver, copper, and tin. And there also is physical evidence of other people using iron in the Americas.

[@timjones747]

rusty then gone now.

[@danhoen4129]

@@timjones747 Archaeologists find all sorts of iron/steel artifacts in Europe that are thousands of years old. In fact, they have found thousand year old iron/steel artifacts in Newfoundland that were left there by Norse explorers. While it's reasonable to expect that we'd lose a lot/most artifacts to the elements, it's not reasonable to expect to not find a single artifact from armies that are claimed to have had millions of soldiers. And certainly, we'd find countless bloomeries (ovens that smelt iron to make steel) and the leftover waste (called slag) from that process. Any archaeologist (Mormon or not) will tell you that there is zero evidence of ancient American steel making.

[@SmoothRuffian]

Real question: If Cumorah was down in southern Mexico or central America, how does the experience Joseph Smith revealed about Zelph, the Lamanitish Nephite warrior? That burial mound was found along the Mississippi River.

[@dylanwilliams2202]

Awe geez, buddy Helamen 3:3 says they went northward. Helaman 3:6-7 and Helamen 3:10 says that there was no timber so they built houses using cement. The only place in North America that has that kind of geography and evidence of cement housing being used anciently is Arizona and Texas, mind you the Book of Mormon says all this is going on North of the main body of Nephites or where the story has been taking place. There are multiple other places that say they spread across the land, which is why you see evidence of some Nephite culture so far north in the US. The Book of Mormon itself says that these people had records which are not in the Book of Mormon in Helaman 3:13. Zelph and Omandagus aren’t mentioned in the Book of Mormon and so doesn’t really have any significance for its geographical location.

[@Eluzian86]

​@@dylanwilliams2202 The scripture says the land was rendered desolate of trees (Helaman 3:5). It wasn't naturally desolate of trees. The Jaredite inhabitants cut them all down. Did the American Southwest have a climate 4,000 years ago that would have supported large forests in those areas, but the climate changed to not be able to support the forests anymore and so they didn't grow back? If the climate didn't have that kind of major shift from the Jaredite to Nephite timeline, the climate of the land of Desolation should be able to support more forests than the current American Southwest.

[@TrebizondMusic-cm6fp]

Zelph could have been a bit of inspired mythopoeia to boost the morale of the camp. Some people would have a problem with that, but I don't.

[@scottvance74]

@@TrebizondMusic-cm6fp What is the difference between "inspired mythopoeia" and just making stuff up so that people will think that you're a great prophet or leader?

[@fidtru8615]

@@dylanwilliams2202 Well said!

[@MDS53162]

You need to spend a day with with Rod Meldrum, Johnathan Neville, Wayne May and about 110 Native American tribes. Reread the Book of Mormon and Church history thats been kept from you by the scholars and intellects who have an agenda that requires them to be dishonest at times. You can do this...Your a smart girl.

[@kentthalman4459]

and don't forget to checkout DNA results and research Guns, Germs, and Steel.

[@duane9166]

May I ask what differing opinions on this subject have to do with repenting and coming to Christ? (ref. D&C 10:67-68)

[@timjones747]

No, they are not open minded. They are set in their beliefs. I follow the promptings of the Spirit. I believe the larger geography model of both being part of the Book of Mormon. However, I am open to other theories and there is compelling evidence for the heartland model. I ADMIT WHEN I SAY I BELIEVE SOMETHING THAT I COULD BE WRONG. ONLY GOD KNOWS AND HE HAS NOT MADE IT KNOWN UNTO ME YET.

[@kentthalman4459]

@@timjones747 mmm.... many believe that the voice they hear are not from the Spirit. Many, many talks from past leaders who thought they were being prompted by the Spirit have since shown to be teachings of men. I suggest that promptings of the Spirit are reliably unreliable.

[@aisaxonawiat6484]

This is true, people don't realize how much socialist penetration has taken place within the church and the effect it is having.... any further conversation on the matter will be shadow banned.

[@chucklearnslithics3751]

Hmmm... Except Zelph (Southern Illinois) was said, by Smith, to have been killed in one of the final battles, giving strong evidence the Cumorah battle was likewise in North America. And there's no evidence of Macuahuitls being used outside of Meso-America and certainly not at "final battle" scale. A hill and field of prismatic blade weapons strewn about the ground, in a massive lost battle, would be as archaeologically out of place as one with metal weapons on that scale in the Mississippi cultures. Prismatic blades themselves had largely fallen out of favor in North America after the paleolithic - not entirely, but certainly at the scale of a Macuahuitl wielding army, in the wrong time period (400 CE), and out of Meso-America, would be noticeable at this scale. If you stay in Meso-America then there is evidence of atlatl battles left behind. One of the pyramids of Mirador has dart points all over it and dates to the end of the pyramid's use. It is interpreted as a final stand on the pyramid itself. So the signature of such events is archaeologically detectable. A battle of this scale, on a hill in North America, would be even more likely detectable than in the deepest jungles of Mexico and Guatemala, even if it was just with stone implements. More so if they were metal.

[@ZelphBallard-bg9mt]

yep zelph strikes again

[@josephnebeker7976]

Nowhere in the Book of Mormon are weapons such as the Aztec weapons even hinted at. In fact the book of Mormon tells us about the Jaredites working in metal, and of a steel sword brought over from the old world by Nephi, and that all swords by his people were modeled after the sword of Laban. And joseph Smith stated on many occasions that the BoM lands were in the east coast region of North America. How quickly an easily people forget.

[@chucklearnslithics3751]

@josephnebeker7976 Agreed. Meso-American weapons, in North America, like a Macuahuitl are out of place there, and completely out of place in the BoM. And the reverse is also true - steel weapons in the BoM are a complete miss _anywhere_ in the Americas.

[@ZelphBallard-bg9mt]

@@chucklearnslithics3751 aha thats a gotcha!

[@lymanmoulton5809]

This is intellectually dishonest. The 230,000 Nephite loss does NOT include the Lamanite loss. A 230,000 battles loss equates to approximately a million people accounting for parents, young children and the elderly. To quote Michael Coe is also dishonest since Mr. Coe is on record as stating that the Maya are NOT the Book of Mormon people. Anachronisms are indicators of time dating a text, not of parsing words to justify them. Location is irrelevant because there is no city nor civilzation in Meso American or anywhere on the planet that rivals the archaeology of Rome which is its height was about 1 million inhabitants during the same time period 600 BC to 400 AD. Also, you are ignoring the 2 million Jaredites who were killed in battle also with no archaeology. See Either 15:2

[@timjones747]

Faith is more important than science to me, but I am skeptically optimistic. I have had a miracle happen to me that proved to me that there is a God. I also have had spiritual confirmation that Jesus is our Savior, and the book of Mormon is true. these things can only be known by the spirit. My miracle is easy for me to forget about and i often do even though it was huge and amazing! I can't deny that it happened. There were witnesses who never talk about it and change the subject if I bring it up. My witnesses from the spirit have stuck with me and are way more convincing to me than any evidence or miracles. So, I would love a lot of evidence, but it is not necessary.

[@ghpedroza]

I love your work (and videos) on these ancient subjects! Keep up and thank you so much!!

[@RamseyDewey]

Check out the collections of the Milwaukee public museum (viewable online). They have a collection of Native American copper and bronze swords, scimitars (long curved blades with one true edge and one false edge), axes, javelins, breastplates, head plates (not helmets, plates worn over thick cloth armor, just as the Book of Mormon describes during the campaigns of Captain Moroni), and many other examples of ancient metal tools and weapons. 3 other things to consider: 1. In 1820, the industrial manufacture of carbon steel in the west wasn’t a thing. (Not till 1865) The word “steel” in Joseph Smith’s era did not mean carbon steel, it meant “standing fast”, or “firm”, or a hard metal alloy (not necessarily iron/carbon steel) 2. The last mention of the Nephite’s use of “steel” in the Book of Mormon chronologically happens in Jarom 1, around 399 BC. Steel is never again mentioned being used or made among the Nephites. The distinction of “fine steel” is used specifically to describe only the sword of Laban and Nephi’s fine steel bow he brought with him from Jerusalem. This is clearly a different kind of metal alloy than what the Nephites worked with until 399 AD when, for whatever reason, they stopped working in “steel”. 3. It’s also worth noting the source language of the Book of Mormon text (Egyptian) where Egyptologists still can’t agree on word for word meanings of the the various words for metals since each seems to be used to describe multiple different types of metal and alloys. For example the word “bia” (possibly related to the god of metallurgy and industry Ptah) is used in different texts to describe iron, copper, bronze, and all manner of hard metal alloys, as well as the steel dagger of Tutankhamen. This is consistent with the Book of Mormon text where in most mentions of metals, we get a whole list of metals in row. “Bia” may actually just a space saving literary device to describe an assortment of metallurgical work. Anyway, there are very real and observable cases for pre-columbian North American metal swords.

[@RamseyDewey]

@ why not ask what specifically?

[@KendraAndTheLaw]

@@RamseyDewey Where the book of mormon locations are

[@RamseyDewey]

@@KendraAndTheLaw what does that question have to do with my post?

[@The_Conspiracy_Analyst]

Those swords you mentioned in the Milwaukee Public Museum are from Iran. Why be deceptive?

[@RamseyDewey]

@@The_Conspiracy_Analyst You are telling me that the Native American artefacts in the Native American collections at the Milwaukee Public Museum are really from Iran? You are telling me that curators of that Museum have committed fraud by publishing false archeological findings? What is your source for that? And how do you account for all the other similar artefacts found in the north eastern US dating to the same era in other museums and collections? Are those also fraudulent claims? Are those artefacts also from Iran? Are the Native American iron artefacts from the Pacific northwest also from Iran? Were all the ancient Native American copper mines and foundry's across North America a hoax from Iran too? Next will you tell me Native Americans weren't really from America either and they came from the Middle East too?

[@jeff3olsen]

It's amazing to me how some can so flippantly brush off the prophet Joseph Smith's own words when it comes to the location of the Book of Mormon in favor of philosophies of "the learned." It sometimes reminds me of this verse: "O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish."

[@kennethmoake1448]

Which words do you refer to?

[@timmiestabrnak]

None of this apologetics is based on data. If anyone cared about the data, they would not take the book of Mormon, literally, at all, in any way shape or form.

[@BobSmith-lb9nc]

Joseph's own history (JS H) leaves the hill near Manchester unnamed. Neither he nor Moroni gave it a name. Those who have not read the Book of Mormon carefully ignore the fact that Cumorah (Ramah) was the place in which the vast record collection was kept by Mormon (Mormon 6:6, Ether 15:11). However, Mormon gave his Book of Mormon plates to his son Moroni, who did not put them back into the Hill Cumorah cave, but continued to edit them and take them wherever he went. Jeff Olsen might want to consider that before calling down fire and brimstone on fellow Saints.

[@jeff3olsen]

@BobSmith-lb9nc I would humbly invite all to reject the liberal woke cancel culture that often distorts others' words to make an offfense where none is intended and to attempt to silence others. It is not less speech, but more speech that is needed.

[@jeff3olsen]

@BobSmith-lb9nc Whoa, Bob. Where did my comment go? Did you try to censor me by blocking me? I would humbly invite all to reject the liberal woke cancel culture that often distorts others' words to make an offense where none is intended and to silence others amd then quickly hides behind the cloaking virtues. It is not less speech, but more speech that is needed. I would invite all to consider where did the philosophy of Meso-America come from. Did it not largely come from "the learned" scholars and such? Yet the heartland idea comes directly from the prophet and seems to me to be supported by many humble servants.

[@RICHARDSALINAS-i8x]

PRESIDENT ANTHONY W. IVINS in the April 1928 General Conference said, "The passages which I have quoted from the Book of Mormon and the more extended discussion of this subject by Elder B. H. Roberts which was published in The Deseret News of March 3, 1928, definitely establish the following FACTS: That the Hill Cumorah, and the Hill Ramah are identical; that it was around this hill that the armies of both the Jaredites and Nephites, fought their great last battles ; that it was in this hill that Mormon deposited all of the sacred records which had been entrusted to his care by Ammaron, except the abridgment which he had made from the plates of Nephi, which were delivered into the hands of his son, Moroni. We know positively that it was in this hill that Moroni deposited the abridgment made by his father, and his own abridgment of the record of the Jaredites, and that it was from this hill that Joseph Smith obtained possession of them." Also, Ronnie Sparks, an LDS member asking this same question received a letter from the first presidency dated October 16th 1990 and it says, " The Church has long maintained, as attested to by references in the writings of General Authorities, that the Hill Cumorah in western New York state is the same as referenced in the Book of Mormon." Should we believe Jasmin of Scripture Plus? Should we believe scholars and historians now? Or should we follow the prophets? I was always told, to follow the prophets. I was taught that what they say from the pulpit is scripture. "Follow the prophet, follow the prophet, Follow the prophet, don't go astray, Follow the prophet, follow the prophet, Follow the prophet he know the way."

[@timmiestabrnak]

Interesting because the “prophets” contradict. Just abandon the whole thing.

[@like2hunt]

Timmy should study what a ‘collective witness’ is.

[@woodystube1000]

@@RICHARDSALINAS-i8x You must always make a personal decision on who to follow. Prophets, being “fallible men,” tend to contradict each other, dependent on their contemporary sensibilities. Knowing this full well, people like Jasmine come up with explanations for the prophets being wrong about so many things. Regardless of which prophet or set of beliefs you choose to accept, pray about it in earnest and the Holy Ghost will confirm it is true so you can bear spiritual witness. If it turns out that belief was incorrect, just pray about the new one and the same will happen. Edited for typos

[@GaryVanDolzer]

Thanks for your reply. Perfectly explained!

[@thomasashton1661]

We should believe none of them as it's all bunk and a waste of time.

[@Flipflopskipskop]

I appreciate this video. For years I would thoroughly study the whole aspect of the physical evidence of the book of mormon. Whether it was, sites, locations, battles, whatever, you name it and I was interested in learning about it. As time went on I came across a million and one differing opinions of possible locations etc of everything. That always left me confused but I had my info and I was good with it. Then all of a sudden one day I got a very distinct feeling, prompting, whatever you want to call it. It spoke clearly to me and said "it's not pertinent". Just like that I stopped my research not really knowing why but I didn't care. Videos like this give me more information as to why. Thank you, you are amazing.

[@riannelson67]

All truth is pertinent. NY Cumorah is the answer: “The Book of Mormon records that due to the wickedness of the Nephite civilization they were destroyed by their brothers the Lamanites. The final battles of this unholy war took place near a hill that was called Cumorah. At Cumorah, hundreds of thousands of Nephites were slain, and the prophet/historian Moroni buried the history of his people in that hill (Mormon 6:2-15; 8:1-5). Hundreds of years later, that same history was unearthed in upstate New York, by the boy prophet Joseph Smith and translated to become the Book of Mormon (Joseph Smith--History 1:51-52). “When Joseph Smith made his "fantastic" claims and published the Book of Mormon as an ancient history of the American Indians, some scoffed at the idea that a major battle had anciently taken place in the local vicinity. However, evidence was soon produced that documented that this region of the country did indeed once possess a heavy Indian population, and that a terrible battle had taken place in that locality. Writing in 1851, E. G. Squier says that in the region: "Human bones of men, women, and children of both sexes were thrown together promiscuously by the thousands." He notes large quantities of pottery, pipes, flint arrow-heads, stone hatchets and other implements were also found there. He further states that the ancient relics unearthed in the vicinity (which he estimates to be several hundred years old) showed considerable evidence of Hebrew origin.” (See E. G. Squier, Antiquities of New York, 1851, pp. 137-138.) In New York State Bulletin #2 it is documented that several miles south of "Mormon Hill," as it was then called, a site was found where flint arrowheads and spear points and many unfinished weapons were found in great abundance. All of the above sources are cited in Brenton G. Yorgason, Little Known Evidences of the Book of Mormon, 1989, p. 10.

[@Flipflopskipskop]

@riannelson67 I guess I should elaborate. Evidence / proof wasn't pertinent. I was spending an absorbent amount of time on something that regardless of what I found if I found anything at all wasn't going to affect my salvation in any way. That's my fault as I was rather vague I suppose. This is just me however, I don't expect others to have spiritual promptings of the same nature and now I wonder why I even shared it as it really only pertains to me. Oops again.

[@robertrosskopf4641]

An important piece of the puzzle is that the Hill Cumorah is in the land of Cumorah. It is not just a prominent hill, it is the most prominent of all surrounding hills. An entire area is named after it.

[@davidrawlings1176]

There has been plenty of evidence of a great battle. Farmers for 200 years have found artifacts while plowing their fields in that exact area. The university of Buffalo has over a million artifacts but lacks the funding to put them on display. Skeletal remains arn’t present because they were left as they fell exposing them to the elements and predators. 230,000 were casualties of many battles leading up to the final. Also, to say that Moroni could have traveled a long distance to bury the plates is interesting because Brigham Young said that there were several wagon loads of plates in the hill repository. So you’re telling me he traveled a long distance, perhaps 1,000’s of miles with several wagon loads of plates without being detected by the lamanites. Also, the name “Hill Cumorah” was made known to Joseph during Moroni’s 1st visit. David whitmer said he was told the name while transporting Joseph and Oliver to Fayette in 1829. Lucy Mack said the family was very much aware of the name “Hill Cumorah” from the outset. My only question to you is that if you are going to do a podcast like this why arn’t you doing some legitimate research beforehand. Lastly, 200 years ago there were hundreds of fortifications erected in Illinois, Indiana, Ohio and Western New York matching the very description in the book of “Alma.” In fact the Palmyra Temple was built inside one of them. Joseph smith said the Lamanites descended from the native Americans not the Mayans. Hope this help answers some your questions.

[@richarner3856]

What flavor Kool Aid have you been drinking 😂

[@davidrawlings1176]

@ thankfully not one known to you

[@juliemonroe3055]

I spent a summer at the Hill as a cast member of the pageant in the mid 1970's. Much of what you posted was part of our daily study. And don't drink the water at the hill it looks like rusty orange 'koolaid'

[@davidrawlings1176]

@ I have been to the Hill several times while living back East and since. I have been told by someone who actually lived there (close to the Hill) that farmers, even to this day., are still uncovering artifacts. I just wish people would do a little research before sounding off.

[@stefanylclark7419]

Soil samples continue to turn up positive results for human bone. Also, remember there is the "land of Cumorah" and the "hill Cumorah".

[@phav1832]

For sure, when reading ancient texts numbers are often (usually?) symbolic . . . like the number 40 happens all the time. 7 is common. They are not literal. There are books that explain symbolism in ancient texts, and numbers as symbols take up entire chapters.

[@ericpeterson6013]

Very interesting commentary. Thank you for your research. Not too worried about evidence as much as my faith, which wains at times. Really enjoy watching your videos.

[@riannelson67]

Many prophets have spoken about hill Cumorah in NY as the great last battlefield “We visited the Hill Cumorah and were accorded the courtesy of going thereon by the wife of Mr. George Sampson, a brother of Admiral Wm. Sampson, who before his death owned the property. When we went up there and looked around, we felt that we were standing on holy ground. The brethren located, as near as they thought was possible, the place from which the plates of the Book of Mormon were taken by the Prophet. We were delighted to be there. Looking over the surrounding country we remembered that two great races of people had wound up their existence in the vicinity, had fought their last fight, and that hundreds of thousands had been slain within sight of that hill. Evidence of the great battles that have been fought there in days gone by are manifest in the numerous spear and arrow-heads that have been found by farmers while plowing in that neighborhood. We were fortunate enough to obtain a few of the arrowheads.” (George Albert Smith, Conference Report, April 1906, Third Day-Morning Session p. 56)

[@valerielebaron783]

Great presentation! You covered a lot of ground. Thanks so much.

[@riannelson67]

You didnt cover the evidence for large battles in Cumorah.“We visited the Hill Cumorah and were accorded the courtesy of going thereon by the wife of Mr. George Sampson, a brother of Admiral Wm. Sampson, who before his death owned the property. When we went up there and looked around, we felt that we were standing on holy ground. The brethren located, as near as they thought was possible, the place from which the plates of the Book of Mormon were taken by the Prophet. We were delighted to be there. Looking over the surrounding country we remembered that two great races of people had wound up their existence in the vicinity, had fought their last fight, and that hundreds of thousands had been slain within sight of that hill. Evidence of the great battles that have been fought there in days gone by are manifest in the numerous spear and arrow-heads that have been found by farmers while plowing in that neighborhood. We were fortunate enough to obtain a few of the arrowheads.” (George Albert Smith, Conference Report, April 1906, Third Day-Morning Session p. 56)

[@eldonsala3987]

Love it. Thank you for the background and for all that was covered.

[@gaugat]

In my opinion, the ancient Hill Cumorah is the one in New York. Oliver Cowdery: In his 1835 Letter VII, Oliver Cowdery explicitly identified the New York Hill Cumorah as the site of the Nephite and Lamanite final battle and also associated it with the Jaredites. He wrote: "You are acquainted with the mail road from Palmyra, Wayne County, to Canandaigua, Ontario County, New York, and also know the spot where the remains of numerous bodies were found unburied... This hill, by the Jaredites, was called Ramah; by the Nephites, Cumorah... In this place, perished at last the entire nation of the Nephites." This is one of the most direct early statements connecting the New York hill with both Jaredite and Nephite history. Joseph Smith (through associates and recorded history): While there is no record of Joseph Smith personally making a detailed statement about the New York hill as the battleground, he endorsed Oliver Cowdery’s letters, including Letter VII, which was reprinted multiple times in church publications during Joseph’s lifetime. This endorsement is often seen as a tacit confirmation of the New York Cumorah's significance. Orson Pratt: In an 1879 publication of The Deseret News, Apostle Orson Pratt stated that Cumorah was the site of both the final Nephite and Jaredite battles. He said: "In the western part of the State of New York, there is a small hill... [where] both the Jaredites and Nephites perished..." Joseph Fielding Smith: In the 20th century, Joseph Fielding Smith reiterated that the New York Hill Cumorah was the site of the last battles, rejecting other theories that proposed Central American locations. He wrote: “This modernistic theory [of a Mesoamerican Cumorah]... is in direct conflict with the statements made by Oliver Cowdery and Joseph Smith and the fact that the Prophet himself has described the manner of finding the records, and the final battle taking place on the hill Cumorah in western New York State.”

[@kentthalman4459]

At least you're being true to Church history.

[@davus4242]

Do you know Oliver was an apostate? And that he was fire by Joseph in his attempt in writing the history; because Oliver couldn't keep the facts straight in some of those letters Neville loves to promote to sell his books and pamphlets. Among many issues with the letters Joseph had, the biggest debacle was the letter of Oliver's where he conflated the first vision and Moroni visit into one event. When Joseph found out, Joseph was livid and instantly had Oliver write a letter to correct the mistake. Joseph then relieved Oliver from the assignment of writing the history. It was such a screw up that antis still use it to this day as "proof" it was all made up and the story evolved. Consequently, this damaged Oliver's relationship with Joseph. Oliver apostatized and had an even bigger fallout with Joseph was later excommunicated. Everything Oliver said or did should be discounted and suspect. And further, anyone using Oliver's letters as "proof" of anything should be suspect as well. Means they shouldn't be trusted. Take care

[@kentthalman4459]

@@davus4242 From Heber C Kimball "How does it compare with the vision that Joseph and others had, when they went into a cave in the hill Cumorah, and saw more records than ten men could carry? There were books piled up on tables, book upon book. Those records this people will yet have, if they accept of the Book of Mormon and observe its precepts, and keep the commandments.”

[@kentthalman4459]

@@davus4242 From Edward Stevenson "It was likewise stated to me by David Whitmer in the year 1877 that Oliver Cowdery told him that the Prophet Joseph and himself had seen this room and that it was filled with treasure, and on a table therein were the breastplate and the sword of Laban, as well as the portion of gold plates not yet translated, and that these plates were bound by three small gold rings, and would also be translated, as was the first portion in the days of Joseph. When they are translated much useful information will be brought to light. But till that day arrives, no Rochester adventurers shall ever see them or the treasures, although science and mineral rods testify that they are there.”

[@davus4242]

@@kentthalman4459 As stated, it was a vision of a cave opening. Not the actual hill opening. Read the original account and don't conjecture more.

[@Eluzian86]

There's at least two narrow or small passages to the land of Desolation. There's the Small Neck mentioned in Alma 22:32, which is on the north border of the land of Bountiful. The Narrow Pass mentioned in Alma 50:34 must be northeast of the land of Bountiful. There's the border dispute between the cities of Lehi and Morianton, both of which border the seashore in the East Wilderness. A woman went to Moroni's camp to inform him of the intention of the people of Morianton to flea to the land northward. Moroni sent Teancum and his men, all of whom were described as being stronger and more skilled than every Lamanite warrior (Alma 51:31). Basically, Moroni sent his equivalent of special forces. The people of Morianton would march slower than such a force, and I don't believe they could have slipped past them on the north in the land of Bountiful. I believe Teancum and his men would have been traveling east or northeast and the people of Morianton would have been traveling east or northeast. Therefore, the Narrow Pass would be halfway between the land of Bountiful and the east coast. If the four cardinal seas are around the land of Desolation, as I interpret it from the description in Helaman 3:8, then that would indicate two southern passages connecting the land of Desolation to the southern Nephite lands. Omer, when fleeing, after being warned of God, passes near the Hill Cumorah before heading east (Ether 9:3). The poisonous serpents may have been blocking the passage to the south since they hadn't been destroyed yet (Ether 10:19), but he could have portaged over the Niagara Escarpment. If the Small Neck is between Ohio and the lower peninsula of Michigan, then the Niagara Escarpment would be in the right position to be the Narrow Pass. I think a lot of people have false assumptions in their interpretations of Alma 22, which would give them a flawed internal map to search with for Book of Mormon lands in world geography. False assumptions breed false conclusions.

[@TrebizondMusic-cm6fp]

I remain curious about Niagara. Always I try to keep in mind: most of what Mormon wrote about he drew from sources, not from personal experience. One thing I noticed, and I hope I'm understanding and remembering right: Mormon doesn't mention Bountiful among the lands where he spent so much of his life fighting: at or near the border between north and south. But when he writes the descriptions in Alma and Helaman it almost looks like he's writing about somewhere else.

[@rogerchilders1770]

Benton Yorgason in his book "Little Know Evidences of the BofM" refers to a book written in 1851 titled Antiquities of New York by E.G. Squire speaking about Cumorah-land where he says: "Human bones of men, women, and children of both sexes, (and) of infant children, have been unearthed in long trenches. The bodies were thrown together promiscuously by the thousands."

[@Kristy_not_Kristine]

Yes! This is the book I was referring to in my comment.

[@aaronwood8012]

Thank you - I’ll look for that

[@kentthalman4459]

Little known for a reason. Leave it to a novelists to write about book about BoM evidences. The reality is that we know from native American linguistics and literacy that the BoM can't be historical. "8 And there had many things transpired which, in the eyes of some, would be great and marvelous; nevertheless, they cannot all be written in this book; yea, this book cannot contain even a hundredth part of what was done among so many people in the space of twenty and five years; 9 But behold there are records which do contain all the proceedings of this people; and a shorter but true account was given by Nephi. 10 Therefore I have made my record of these things according to the record of Nephi, which was engraven on the plates which were called the plates of Nephi." No native American civilization ever gained this level literacy. Ever. This could not have happened. Native American literacy was limited to rituals and myths, and virtually all of it pictorial. No native American civilization ever achieved the agriculture capability to support 250,000 troops. Ever.

[@TrebizondMusic-cm6fp]

@@kentthalman4459 Read _1491._

[@Sharethejoy24]

​@@kentthalman4459 I have recently learned about a Native American chief (Chief Midegah) who has birch scrolls which have been handed down through his line. He would be well searching after. He has a small KZbin channel and is interviewed on a few others. He has many interesting things to say. He is LDS as well.

[@kuyalems]

Hill cumorah today is not the Hill cumorah in the time of Mormon Mormon 6:6 ...I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, SAVE IT were these FEW PLATES(book of mormon) which I gave unto my son Moroni.

[@jamessi155]

230,000 are only Nephites; thousands of Lamanites also died. Several hundred thousand died

[@cdeanneeckles]

Thanks for sharing

[@cdewmart]

Oliver Cowdry is on record stating that the last battle took place in the valley just to the west of the Hill Camora

[@kentthalman4459]

and even published in the Church's Messenger

[@timjones747]

@@kentthalman4459 Is everything in the Church's Messenger scripture and revelation? Or just Book of Mormon Geography?

[@kentthalman4459]

@@timjones747 Is the Messenger, the Church publication of their day, any different than the Ensign or Liahona today? Do members doubt what's in those publications?

[@kentthalman4459]

@@timjones747 The Messenger is equivalent to today's Liahona or Ensign. How do members interpret the claims and statements made in those publications?

[@OnGuard3S]

When I was in college ( early 2000s), I worked for a construction company during the summers. One of the jobs we had was to run water & sewer lines in the hill cumorah area. I thought it would be really cool if we found any artifacts. I wasn't expecting to find bones, but maybe stone tools, weapons & jewelery. We found nothing. And i can tell you it's not uncommon to dig up ancient native American artifacts in upstate New York; just nothing in that area. I do believe that the hill cumorah is the one where Moromi deposited the plates, and where the great battle happened. However, any evidence of either are long gone.

[@aliciamae85]

I love how you discount statements that were 10 years later as being erroneous while so much of what you do claim as facts are that far removed or more. The problem with apologists is their lack of integrity, shameful.

[@scottvance74]

It's a feature, not a bug.

[@adamholloway7963]

@@scottvance74 lol

[@kentthalman4459]

@@scottvance74 an often used feature

[@ZelphBallard-bg9mt]

@@scottvance74 nope its definitely a bug!!!

[@davidbrenchley]

Thank you so much. You obviously did a lot of research for this video. How long does it take to put a video together like this?

[@ChrisFBartlett]

Prophets and apostles have identified the Hill Cumorah as the battle hill, the same hill Joseph said he found the plates: Oct. 1978 general conf. Mark E. Petersen: “As the fighting neared its end, Mormon gathered the remnant of his forces about a hill which they called Cumorah, located in what is now the western part of the state of New York.”

[@ChrisFBartlett]

Oct 1975 general conf. Marion G. Romney: “…In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the “hill Cumorah.” …as I stood on the crest of that hill… my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity some twenty-five centuries ago-which brought to an end the great Jaredite nation… the hill Cumorah, [230,000]… were hewn down…”

[@ChrisFBartlett]

If we are proposing that the hill in New York is not the hill of the battle, is it likely that these men, who claim to speak for God, are mistaken? Or is it more likely that we are trying to explain something away, in light of lack of archeological evidence? Sincere question.

[@mssmith3604]

Latter-day Saint doctrine allows prophets their own opinions and views, which are not regarded as either infallible or binding upon Church members. Only Jesus Christ was perfect; LDS prophets follow the biblical model of being fallible men of their time called by God to accomplish his purposes. So safeguard against the foibles or mistakes of individuals, God uses the united voice of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve apostles to establish official doctrine and interpretation.

[@danhoen4129]

@@ChrisFBartlett this is what happens when overwhelming evidence doesn't fit the claim. Mormon archaeologists have declared the hill Cumorah as a clean hill. So apologists can either refuse to accept reality that there is no evidence for two of the largest ancient battles in human history, or they can move the battle to an unknown location in order to preserve their beliefs.

[@adamholloway7963]

@@ChrisFBartlett Yes, the LDS Prophets, Seers, and Revelators who claim to speak for God were mistaken. And, they are trying to explain away their mistakes BECAUSE there is no archaeological evidence.

[@masterbulgokov]

"Later recollections should be used cautiously."

[@jamesstone9142]

lol

[@brucelloyd7496]

I know you have good intentions trying to help people understand the Book of Mormon, but you are among the scholars and pundits who are deceiving people about Book of Mormon Geography. In 2012, Elder L. Tom Perry said, "The United States is the promised land foretold in the Book of Mormon-a place where divine guidance directed inspired men to create the conditions necessary for the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It was the birth of the United States of America that ushered out the Great Apostasy, when the earth was darkened by the absence of prophets and revealed light. It was no coincidence that the lovely morning of the First Vision occurred just a few decades after the establishment of the United States." There is only one hill Cumorah! You obviously know nothing about real Church History or you are deliberately hiding the truth to promote the Mesoamerican model. Let me enlighten you. The following two events happened BEFORE Joseph got the plates in Sep 1823! ***Cumorah mentioned in 1823*** We have history of Lucy Mack Smith. During Joseph’s first encounter with Moroni in Sep 1823 [repeated at least 4 times], we have the following account from Lucy Mack Smith in the Joseph Smith Papers. Lucy Mack Smith was cited 128 times in Saints Vol 1, but key Cumorah quotes and early church history have been censored! “…you must tell your father of this for he will believe every word you say the record is on a side hill on the Hill of Cumorah 3 miles from this place remove the Grass and moss and you will find a large flat stone pry that up and you will find the record under it laying on 4 pillars of cement- then the angel left him” www.josephsmithpapers.org/.../lucy-mack-smith.../41 ***Cumorah Mentioned in 1827*** Here is an account of Cumorah in Lucy Mack Smith’s History BEFORE Joseph got the plates. On pages 98 and 99 we learn that Joseph was sent to Manchester (6.7 miles south of Palmyra) on business by his father. He was expected back before dark, but did not return until after dark and his parents were very worried. They asked Joseph why he was delayed 3 hours in returning home. “Presently he smiled, and said in a calm tone, “I have taken the severest chastisement that I have ever had in my life.” My husband, supposing that it was from some of the neighbours, was quite angry and observed, "I would like to know what business anybody has to find fault with you!" "Stop, father, stop," said Joseph, "it was the angel of the Lord: as I passed by the hill of Cumorah [not mentioned in Saints Vol 1, page 36], where the plates are, the angel met me, and said that I had not been engaged enough in the work of the Lord; that the time had come for the Record to be brought forth; and that I must be up and doing, and set myself about the things which God had commanded me to do.” www.josephsmithpapers.org/.../lucy-mack-smith.../111 We also have Emma's 1835 Hymnbook which include Hymn #16, “An angel came down from the mansions of glory, And told that a record was hid in Cumorah.” This hymn was published in the Evening and Morning Star I.9:65 about 2 years before Emma’s 1835 Hymnbook. In 1829 David Whitmer was transporting Joseph and Oliver from Harmony to Fayette and they encountered a heavenly messenger. This was the same messenger that Joseph had given the Harmony plates to just before they started the trip to Fayette. The heavenly messenger turns down a wagon ride and states, I'm on my way to Cumorah." We also have the 8 Letters from Oliver Cowdery to W. W. Phelps in 1834-35 (7 references to Cumorah). Finally, we have the 1842, 128th Section of the D&C, "20 And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets-the book to be revealed." Please stop lying and deceiving your viewers and listeners.

[@joncharlotteschoen]

I couldn't even bother to finish reading your long diatribe. Because L Tom Perry said it, it MUST be true?

[@like2hunt]

Bc BOM central said it, it must be true haha. Trust the prophets or the scholars?

[@robsin2810]

Very well stated…

[@joncharlotteschoen]

@@like2hunt I never said don't trust the prophets, I said that not everything that a prophet or apostle says is necessarily doctrine.

[@BrianTerrill]

@@brucelloyd7496 President Hinkley and just about every prophet has said both North and South America are the promised land, so stop accusing others of deceiving people just because you love the bogus heartland model

[@MartinDezion]

What a naive question? Bones left on the surface do not fossilize, they weather and totally decompose. It takes special burial conditions for the preservation of bodies. The scene surely was abandoned for at least 100 years. Swords, durable materials and reusable things were eventually scavenged. 99% or all world battle scenes eventually leave no trace.

[@TrebizondMusic-cm6fp]

And who knows how the area might have been cleared for re-use in the 1200 years before European settlement? The Americas weren't a wilderness inhabited by sparse bands of roving savages. Native cultures made extensive use of the land, with sophisticated techniques including regular burning of forest undergrowth. Furthermore, there was good reason for the victors of that battle to want to continue to obliterate all trace of the Nephites from the earth if possible, because by that time the Nephites were depraved and evil.

[@kentthalman4459]

And yet their native decedents still in the area don't have any mid-eastern DNA in them. None.

[@donaldlatham7040]

early settlers in the area commented on, remains of a great battle. they were reported in early news papers from that area,

[@thealternativecontrarian9936]

the early American natives did not get along with each other

[@danieljcapel]

@scripturesplus Yeah, but 1 Nephi 13:30. Can you really argue that Mexico, or really anywhere but the United States can identify as that land and people being described? Do you believe that Mexico and its people are those who were “lifted up by the power of God above all other nations”? Is the greatest most powerful nation on earth really Mexico in your mind?

[@nancyarchibald9095]

My Father in Law served a Mission in the Hill Cummirah area, when his Wife and 3 boys stayed at home n Idaho, supporting him. It was a "thing" to send married men on Missions in the early 1950s. Anyway, he helped them build the sets and infrastructures for the Hill Tumor ah Pageant. He brought home a handful of arrowheads found in the setting there providing proof of a major war in that area.

[@mgeuleinstsear]

But how do they know that they are not arrowheads used by Native Americans (after 400 AD)?

[@Rudyard_Stripling]

Really? A handful? there should have been millions of them there. The handful would have been from later native tribes, the Nephites used steel swords, did he bring any swords home?

[@debbieshrubb1222]

I can find arrowheads in my garden in the UK. That doesn't mean it has significance for Book of Mormon truth claims

[@debbieshrubb1222]

My overall conclusion from the video and the comments is that many religious people live in a permanent state of delusion.

[@Mustardmanor]

@@nancyarchibald9095 my dad found arrow heads in stream beds in Utah on camping trips. Doesn't prove the lamanites lived in Utah. I bet there were indigenous people living at the hill cumorah which explains arrowheads. Doesn't explain the lack of archaeology

[@duanephillips4082]

Well done and well thought-out presentation of issues with modern-day filters on historical information. Thank you!

[@Kristy_not_Kristine]

The early settlers of the area describe finding deteriorated bones all over the place. People seem to forget that bones are an organic substance and will crumble back to dust over time. That puts them at 1,000 years old +/- when the pilgrims arrived! One of the author's names that comes to mind that wrote about this, along with documenting all the mounds that existed at the time, was Squires. Seems like one title was Antiquities of New York? I had a copy years ago. The Book of Mormon is for all people. Read it. It's a true record of people who lived here in NA until 400AD, but it doesn't follow that you should join the lds church. They've been in apostasy since Brigham Young and aren't following the teachings in the Book. In addition, read the books that have been discovered since 1830 that Joseph didn't have access to, many that came forward in English after his death. It's pretty sweet to see so many connections and parallels with what must have been on the brass plates that the Lehites included in many teachings and sermons included in the BofM. Turns out they aren't anachronisms after all, like many detractors like to claim.

[@mgeuleinstsear]

Can you please list the source for your claims about thousands of bones laying around? Would love to read more about it.

[@clydeLedford]

Lying is a sin.

[@Rudyard_Stripling]

5 thousand-year-old Egyptian bones have been found.

[@stevenelzinga8650]

Well done. Thank you for providing nice content.

[@albertofernandez6814]

Again....as usual...a great and informative post ...I always learn or get confirmation of what I know...keep up the great work!!

[@paulblack1799]

Yep, Albert, that's called confirmation bias. Listening to sources you agree with to get confirming 'evidence'. That and thinking the plural of anecdote is 'data'. 😅

[@77bigdave]

That’s crazy that 2 nights ago since you published this, I was wondering the same exact thing about the swords and bones. Nice content. 😮

[@TheJoeE71]

These are excellent points. However, I will point out that my Grandpa was raised on the Joseph Smith farm in his formative years. They were the family that followed the Beans (The Fighting Preacher). He said they were at a few different locations, but were primarily in Palmyra at the Sacred Grove. He told the story of his dad plowing around the Hill Cumorah and encountering white powder. Upon testing, it was found to be human bones.

[@kentthalman4459]

and yet no trace of Lamanite DNA.

[@TheJoeE71]

@@kentthalman4459 Says who? And what is Lamanite DNA? Which specific tribe? I'm impressed you know the results of all testing ever done. 🤦‍♂️

[@kentthalman4459]

@@TheJoeE71 Lamanite DNA would be from the middle east region. It would be type similar to the X2 line found in NA, but would match timeline and migration pattern.

[@lukeslc-xd8ds]

@@TheJoeE71 Ouch!!!! Good one.

[@jamesgill9723]

What's the point in travelling 37days approx. to burry the plates when they could have been buried further South and have Joseph born down there? Also it there were lots of ploughing near the area then the bones etc would have been disturbed and broken up and therefore evidence destroyed! Joseph Smith described the location of the Hill Cumorah as being on the west side of the hill, not far from the top, under a large stone, in a stone box. The Hill Cumorah is located in Manchester, New York Bruce R. McConkie stated Both the Nephite and Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at and near the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites termed it), which hill is located between Palmyra and Manchester in the western part of the state of New York. It was here that Moroni hid up the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated. (Mormon 6 ; Ether 15 .) Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, and many of the early brethren, who were familiar with all the circumstances attending the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in this dispensation, have left us pointed testimony as to the identity and location of Cumorah or Ramah. In 1990 the office of the First Presidency of the LDS Church stated that Cumorah is in New York: NEPHITE AND JAREDITE WARS IN WESTERN NEW YORK. In the face of this evidence coming from the Prophet Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, and David Whitmer, we cannot say that the Nephites and Lamanites did not possess the territory of the United States and that the Hill Cumorah is in Central America. Neither can we say that the great struggle which resulted in the destruction of the Nephites took place in Central America. If Zelph, a righteous man, was fighting under a great prophet-general in the last battles between the Nephites and Lamanites; if that great prophet-general was known from the Rocky Mountains to ‘the Hill Cumorah or eastern sea,’ then some of those battles, and evidently the final battles did take place within the borders of what is now the United States

[@rexcluff3105]

Consider also the Jaredite remains found by the Nephites stating that the swords had rotted away leaving only the gold hilts.

[@Rudyard_Stripling]

But their bones had not rotted away, you are as bad as the narrator.

[@5zazen]

Thanks for your speaking. Subscribed.

[@mmcbride1]

Bravo! One bloody (pun intended) great video! Seriously, you are amazing. Please keep up the faithful (and scientific) perspective. Love it. Thank you.

[@kboydlake83]

Great explanation and breakdown. Nice work!

[@gaugat]

As for the size of the battles, I lean towards Jonathan Neville's interpretation. Jonathan Neville addresses concerns about the scale of the final battles at the Hill Cumorah by suggesting that these battles likely took place over a broader region surrounding the hill rather than on the hill itself. He argues that ancient battles, especially those involving large numbers of people, often took place across extensive landscapes rather than being concentrated in a single, small location. For Neville, the hill itself would have served as a prominent landmark and final defensive stronghold, but the fighting likely spread across the nearby valleys and countryside. This interpretation aligns with descriptions in the Book of Mormon that mention "gathering" to the land of Cumorah, suggesting the region around the hill served as a focal point. Neville also suggests that modern assumptions about the logistics of ancient battles may not fully account for the nature of warfare in antiquity. He posits that "ten thousand" in the Book of Mormon might not always refer to literal counts but could be indicative of military divisions or large groupings rather than precise numbers.

[@paulblack1799]

Uh oh, gaugat. Better not mention Neville. The Scripture Central America folk can't stand him. 😅

[@sdfotodude]

Where would we find that evidence?

[@thealternativecontrarian9936]

or maybe the final battle occurred in Latin America.

[@sdfotodude]

@@thealternativecontrarian9936 or it NEVER happened.

[@thealternativecontrarian9936]

@@sdfotodude or it did happen

[@pancito326]

The battle at Cumorah, mentioned in Mormon 8 and the hill Cumorah, are not necessarily the same place. Moroni wandered for quite a while before he buried the plates. I think, (not sure on this one) that the hill Cumorah, got its name because of being associated with the end of the Book of Mormon, not because it’s the exact location of the final battle. I’d say that it’s unlikely that Moroni wandered for years but buried the plates where the battle took place and the laminates were looking for any nephite to kill them. He went far from that location.

[@commoncents5191]

The quote in chapter 8 does not exclude them being the same hill. Moroni told Joseph he buried the plates in the hilll Cumorah. The church says it is the same hill. I’ll go with the KISS principle.

[@phav1832]

When talking about the "steel sword" thing, I think the other perspective to consider is the ambiguity that exists in language itself, especially when translating from one language to another. Joseph Smith chose to use the word "steel", but does that bind him to the modern narrow definition we have for steel? It could have been some other kind of metal from the time period, but Joseph Smith simply used a word that was familiar and got the basic idea across. So I really sort of don't care about whether the swords were truly steel according to Webster's Dictionary . . . the purpose of the Book of Mormon is to testify of Christ, not present exact terms based on 21st Century narrow definitions. Its purpose is not to be an archeology or history book, which seems to be the standard straw-man thesis for most critics of the Book of Mormon.

[@scriptureplus]

Great point ☝️

[@TrebizondMusic-cm6fp]

If Joseph Smith received the text word for word then he didn't even choose the word "steel." The translation is complex and multi-layered, based in Early Modern English and filtered to be intelligible to an early 19th century reader - and it preserved human faults, which would include imprecise use of words in the source language. If we can use "pepper" to refer to the fruits of capsicum plants which have nothing to do with the pepper tree, then Nephites could use the Hebrew word translated "steel" in the KJV, or a similar Egyptian word, even if the product itself had no iron in it.

[@timmiestabrnak]

Joseph “chose”?! Your presidents and missionary lessons say that his put the words right on the peep stone in the hat. And that the Book of Mormon is the “most correct book” you can’t have your cake and eat it! You and jasmine and the LDS corporation need to stop with the contradictions, inconsistency and gaslighting!

[@TrebizondMusic-cm6fp]

@@timmiestabrnak Yes, the words were given to Joseph. Royal Skousen and Stanford Carmack have demonstrated this meticulously and extensively through rigorous textual criticism over the past 36 years. Speaking of textual criticism, Joseph reported that he had told his associates that the Book of Mormon was the most correct book. That's not to say that we have to take it as inerrant or easy. Context is crucial in understanding texts, instead of reading them like they're expository props in a B-movie.

[@prestonwren]

Not to mention... but wouldn't Moroni want to have buried the plates in the very place where the Nephite nation was destroyed as a testament to their history? That makes more sense to me than Moroni carrying what plates he had all the way to New York from Central America. And, wouldn't he still have had access to all the other plates including the plates of Ether? Why would he leave those plates in a far country?

[@brucelloyd7496]

Why would Moroni expose the plates to potential destruction (during a 3,000-mile trip) by the Lamanites who were hell bent on their destruction? There is only 1 Cumorah and it is in western New York.

[@chucknelson1079]

Joseph and Oliver say it is the hill Commorah. The hill fits the Book very well and better than any hill in Meso America Check your assumptions

[@WooperSlim]

I'm pretty sure that's what the entire video was about, checking your assumptions.

[@Rudyard_Stripling]

Where are all the dead people then? So what do you say to that?

[@Mikenperu]

I can't find the source atm but pretty sure Oliver? said that the large repository is not far from Cumorah (insinuating that it wasn't in it)

[@jahadden1]

The issue as John Sorenson and David Palmer pointed out is, "the Hill Cumorah. Archaeologically speaking, it is a clean hill. No artifacts, no walls, no trenches, no arrow-heads. The area immediately surrounding the hill is similarly clean. Pre-Columbian people did not settle or build here. This is not the place of Mormon’s last stand. We must look elsewhere for that hill. -Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, Volume 13 | Number 1 p.155 However, they have also not come up with any compelling evidences for the Mesoamerican model either.

[@gageputman7084]

Great presentation! Thank you for your detailed thoughts.

[@riannelson67]

Not any detail about the battles near Cumorah.“We visited the Hill Cumorah and were accorded the courtesy of going thereon by the wife of Mr. George Sampson, a brother of Admiral Wm. Sampson, who before his death owned the property. When we went up there and looked around, we felt that we were standing on holy ground. The brethren located, as near as they thought was possible, the place from which the plates of the Book of Mormon were taken by the Prophet. We were delighted to be there. Looking over the surrounding country we remembered that two great races of people had wound up their existence in the vicinity, had fought their last fight, and that hundreds of thousands had been slain within sight of that hill. Evidence of the great battles that have been fought there in days gone by are manifest in the numerous spear and arrow-heads that have been found by farmers while plowing in that neighborhood. We were fortunate enough to obtain a few of the arrowheads.” (George Albert Smith, Conference Report, April 1906, Third Day-Morning Session p. 56)

[@jaketachermusic954]

Check out Wayne May, he discusses swords in America in a more natural way to me. I will say though, whether it’s Mesoamerican or heartland or whatever, I know the book if Mormon is true.

[@ParkerJacobs-iw8yn]

I agree! Wayne May laid it out. 1. Unburied human remains don't preserve long in the sun. 2. The Cumorah area did produce barrels of arrow heads 3. Metal swords were evident in the area. Even steel found in the Great Lakes. 4. Less than 2% of North America has been explored or excavated. We're hands off on burial mounds and there's tons of them all over the US. The Heartland model makes so much more sense. There are countless Hopewell artifacts available. It's fascinating how quickly we leap to a continent away to South America even though the Incas and Mayans timelines don't line up, because of the easy evidences.

[@jaketachermusic954]

@@ParkerJacobs-iw8yn whichever theory, if either, turns out to be right has little to do with my testimony. I do enjoy all the evidences on either because I don’t think any civilization was completely insular.

[@ParkerJacobs-iw8yn]

@@jaketachermusic954 Amen and Amen

[@thealternativecontrarian9936]

May and Meldrum are frauds

[@ltinfpr2j247]

Definitely sharing this with my ward. Loved this information. Some I knew, lots I didn't know.

[@riannelson67]

There ar many artifacts and arrowheads found at cumorah. “We visited the Hill Cumorah and were accorded the courtesy of going thereon by the wife of Mr. George Sampson, a brother of Admiral Wm. Sampson, who before his death owned the property. When we went up there and looked around, we felt that we were standing on holy ground. The brethren located, as near as they thought was possible, the place from which the plates of the Book of Mormon were taken by the Prophet. We were delighted to be there. Looking over the surrounding country we remembered that two great races of people had wound up their existence in the vicinity, had fought their last fight, and that hundreds of thousands had been slain within sight of that hill. Evidence of the great battles that have been fought there in days gone by are manifest in the numerous spear and arrow-heads that have been found by farmers while plowing in that neighborhood. We were fortunate enough to obtain a few of the arrowheads.” (George Albert Smith, Conference Report, April 1906, Third Day-Morning Session p. 56)

[@lriess625]

Something else to consider: "In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the 'hill Cumorah.' (Morm. 6:6.) On July twenty-fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity some twenty-five centuries ago-events which brought to an end the great Jaredite nation. ... "Thus perished at the foot of Cumorah the remnant of the once mighty Jaredite nation ... "This second civilization to which I refer, the Nephites, flourished in America between 600 B.C. and A.D. 400. Their civilization came to an end for the same reason, at the same place, and in the same manner as did the Jaredites’." --President Marion G. Romney (Second Counselor in the First Presidency), "America's Destiny," October 1975 General Conference.

[@fightingfortruth9806]

Look up the name, "Fire Is Born". It documents a massive war campaign that took place up to January 378 AD with the capture of Tikal. This date is significant because it matches up PRECISELY with the date in Mormon 5.

[@fightingfortruth9806]

Mormon ends his commentary on the war in 380 AD, and refuses to give the final gruesome details. Now, most scholars believe that Jesus was actually born in 2 to 4 BC, so the BoM timeline should be moved back. With this adjustment, the year matches the archeology precisely.

[@lukeslc-xd8ds]

???????? And..................................?????

[@aisaxonawiat6484]

@@fightingfortruth9806 .... I wouldn't trust the so-called Scholars, especially those within the church, they fell to socialist infiltration a long time ago.

[@staines888]

I read the book, the Holy Spirit testifies that it's true so now I am a member of the church ❤ love it so much

[@Kristy_not_Kristine]

Oh no! Yes, the Book is true, but it doesn't follow that the church is... it's not! As Joseph warned, Brigham led it to hell and it is in apostasy....

[@garymoses3146]

You are so right. the Book of Mormon is the word of God. I feel what is more important is the teaching in the book than where is took place. Thank you for your testimony

[@gregb6469]

How exactly did the Holy Spirit testify that the BoM is true?

[@dwanareese1774]

Did the Holy Spirit also testify to you that the other Mormon "scriptures", The Pearl of Great Price and Doctrine and Covenants, are also true? Or have you not read those books, yet?

[@ComeFollowMeLatterDayMedia]

Welcome aboard! Remember, just like we graduate from different degrees of learning in schooling, our Earth School has many degrees of spiritual awareness, growth, trial and challenge! Don't get discouraged to be in the mess of our mortality. The Gospel will ALWAYS TRIUMPH, Jesus will always be our Best Friends, and if we follow HIM, and have clarity, charity and understanding with all our fellow Human Family, He will bring us all HOME. All our trials can help launch us toward heights, breadth and depth that we didn't even know existed, but that is how we ascend and Aspire to the Higher. ツ Blessings.

[@adamholloway7963]

“The Church does not take a position on the specific geographic locations of Book of Mormon events in the ancient Americas.” (Gospel Topics Essay: Book of Mormon Geography - LDS Church) While it is true that the church is currently trying to take no position, it is not true that the church has never taken a position on the specific geographic location of BofM events. Like in many other instances, the church has changed its position on previously identified geographic locations for BofM events out of necessity after science has disproved those claims. The LDS Church has identified the location of the Hill Cumorah on multiple occasions where, according to the BofM, millions of people died, in the final battle of the Jaradites and the final battle between the Nephites and Lamanites. According to those Prophets, Seers, and Revelators, the Hill Cumorah is located in Manchester, New York, and is the same hill where the final Jaredite and Nephite battles occurred, where Mormon deposited the Nephite records, where Moroni deposited the gold plates, and where Joseph obtained the gold plates. Mormon 6:1-2 “1 And now I finish my record concerning the destruction of my people, the Nephites. And it came to pass that we did march forth before the Lamanites. 2 And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah, and there we could give them battle.” [BofM footnotes from 1879-1920 directly identified the location of the Hill Cumorah in these verses by stating, “The hill Cumorah is in Manchester, Ontario Co., N. York”.] Even current footnotes ultimately associate the Hill Cumorah referenced in the BofM with the Hill Cumorah in NY. The footnote for Cumorah in Mormon 6:1-2 points to D&C 128:20 which says: “And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets - the book to be revealed...” And D&C 128:20 links Cumorah to Joseph Smith - History 1:51-52 which says: “51 Convenient to the village of Manchester, Ontario county, New York, stands a hill of considerable size, and the most elevated of any in the neighborhood. On the west side of this hill, not far from the top, under a stone of considerable size, lay the plates, deposited in a stone box. This stone was thick and rounding in the middle on the upper side, and thinner towards the edges, so that the middle part of it was visible above the ground, but the edge all around was covered with earth. 52 Having removed the earth, I obtained a lever, which I got fixed under the edge of the stone, and with a little exertion raised it up. I looked in, and there indeed did I behold the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate, as stated by the messenger. The box in which they lay was formed by laying stones together in some kind of cement. In the bottom of the box were laid two stones crossways of the box, and on these stones lay the plates and the other things with them.” Other current official Church publications also clearly identify the Hill Cumorah in NY as the Hill Cumorah in the BofM. And, trying to claim, “The Church does not take a position on the specific geographic locations of Book of Mormon events in the ancient Americas", while simultaneously claiming the Hill Cumorah in NY is the Hill Cumorah of the BofM is simply dishonest. If the LDS Church wants to try to claim on record that they don't take a position on specific geographic locations, then they need to also claim, on record, that all past LDS Prophets, Seers, and Revelators as well as all past official church publications which DID IN FACT take a position on specific geographic locations were all wrong. Anything less is dishonest according to the Church's own teachings on honesty.

[@davidrawlings1176]

@@adamholloway7963 it’s well known fact that they take a position on the New York Cumorah as it is scripture. However, I believe in many cases they shy away from it hoping people will focus on the primary message of Christ and his teachings.

[@adamholloway7963]

@@davidrawlings1176 You said, " it’s well known fact that they take a position on the New York Cumorah as it is scripture." I agree. For more than 200 years, the Church has claimed to "know" that the Hill Cumorah in NY is the same Hill Cumorah of the BofM. The Church knew it and taught it. Now, however, members and apologists are pointing to the statement in the Gospel Topics Essay, which states, "The Church does not take a position on the specific geographic locations of Book of Mormon events in the ancient Americas”, as evidence that the Church does not claim the Hill Cumorah in NY is the same Hill Cumorah in the BofM. So, someone is misrepresenting/lying. Did the Church lie for 200+ years? Or, is the Church lying now by claiming they no longer know where the BofM Hill Cumorah is located? Or, are members and apologists who point to this statement as evidence that the Church no longer claims to know where the BofM Hill Cumorah is located lying? You said, "However, I believe in many cases they shy away from it hoping people will focus on the primary message of Christ and his teachings." Since the Hill Cumorah has been identified, by LDS Prophets, Seers, and Revelators, as the location of the two great BofM battles where 2.2+ million people died with their weapons of war, we know exactly where to look for evidence for BofM historicity. It should be right there on the LDS Church owned land on and around the Hill Cumorah in Manchester, NY. It should be easy for the LDS Church to find evidence for its BofM historicity claims. So, why hasn’t it been found when they know exactly where to look? BYU has an archeology department. The Hill Cumorah in NY would be the perfect place for that department to focus its resources and professionally survey the Hill Cumorah. There is no need to professionally survey the rest of Central America or even North America to find BofM historicity evidence when LDS Prophets have told everyone exactly where to look. So, why isn’t the LDS Church leveraging its resources to have the Hill Cumorah professionally surveyed? Based on all the research I have done so far, I believe it is because the LDS Church knows that no BofM historicity evidence will be found there. Why provide even more proof of “lack of evidence” in the very spot LDS Prophets, Seers, and Revelators have identified as the location where specific BofM events took place. In other words, I believe the results/conclusions of a professional archeological survey of the Hill Cumorah and the surrounding area would not be faith promoting and that is why they are not doing it. Not because they are hoping people will focus on the primary message of Christ and his teachings, but because they know that no archaeological evidence will be found there, in the very spot they have identified for more than 200 years. If they anticipated that it would be faith promoting, I see no reason why they would not pursue it. Especially since many members are leaving the church over BofM historicity issues. They have the money, the BYU archeological department, and they own the land. Nothing is preventing them from having that area professionally surveyed except themselves.

[@davidrawlings1176]

@ I think even if the church employed its resources someone would always criticize or disagree. Therefore, to avoid any further argument they are prepared to place their resources in a more positive direction (I.e. gather Israel, etc) after all, people can talk themselves out of anything if that’s their mindset. The Church needs to move on. . This is the day of the wheat and the tares.

[@nickhoward3040]

Normally love this channel, I think we missed the mark on this one! :) Johnathan Neville has a much better discussion about the Hill Cumorah :)

[@paulblack1799]

Nick... don't mention him. These guys can't stand him. 😅

[@nickhoward3040]

@ lol!

[@jamesbroughton7870]

I’ve always struggled with the fact that there was not very much if any physical evidence or none of the names of the cities are still the same like many are in Israel in that area so this is very interesting I appreciate the time and effort you put into looking into these things that it is helpful

[@woodystube1000]

When I returned home from work last night, I asked my 15-year-old son if he had showered that day. He said “Yes, of course.” I took a look in the bathroom. It was clean and dry, no humid feel or smell, no towels anywhere in sight, and the bar of soap was dry and stuck to the soap dish. Since I had washed all the towels the night before, I looked in the laundry room and it appeared they were all in the same basket they had been in when I left for work. Now, since I did not confirm any of the specific details, my son may have had a towel hidden in his room that I missed when I did laundry and he used that one. He may have also wiped the entire bathroom clean and dry with it, and then hidden it back in his room. He may have opened a window and brought in a fan to clear out all of the humidity. He may have used bodywash instead of soap and just returned it to whence it came after his shower. Since I didn’t specifically ask, it is even possible he showered at a friend’s house. It’s possible he showered in the yard with the garden hose and I just didn’t notice the mud because I didn’t know where to look. All of these things are possible. Or…..he lied and didn’t take a shower.

[@Mustardmanor]

Joseph Smith never lied. Except when he claimed to be a treasure digger and when he repeatedly lied about being a polygamist including in affidavits. Hahaha. Love your comment. It's so logically sound unlike this woman's videos

[@Freon-]

ohhhh mty goodngensds how embarrasing is that

[@victorhopper6774]

he showered at judy's

[@J.B-s7z]

Typical LDS church member mental gymnastics. Either did or did not happen. The difference between the book of Mormon in the Bible is it the Bible actually has archaeological evidence of the things in the Bible. The book of Mormon? Does not. I didn’t even get into the plagiarism accusations of many of the stories in the book of Mormon that were from contemporary 19th century literary works.

[@froggacuda1605]

See, he could have wandered far away to shower and since he waited until later that day to tell you, leaving no specific written statement at that time, you clearly have no reason to doubt him

[@rodneyjohnson4056]

I saw on 1 video where they told about soil samples that were taken the minerals.That's all over the hill and around the edges are indicative of human remains

[@VincentNoot]

So many anachronisms they used to laugh at Joseph smith were turned into pieces of evidences supporting it’s authenticity decades after Joseph smiths death.

[@rconger24]

"anachronisms" in quotation marks.

[@h0rriphic]

💀 J Smith was a pdf file grifter.

[@adamholloway7963]

Oh, you mean anachronisms like: domesticated wheat, domesticated elephants, domesticated horses, domesticated asses, domesticated cattle, domesticated oxen, domesticated cows, domesticated sheep, domesticated swine, domesticated goats, chariots, manufactured silk clothing, metallurgy technology including iron smelting and steel making, oral and written language based in Hebrew and Egyptian, etc. Oh, wait! Those are just a few of the current anachronisms that plague LDS BofM historicity claims. And, it only take one anachronism to disprove the historicity of a document. Not two, three, four, or more. Just one!

[@fredfeller5078]

The Book of Mormon refers to “some who died with fevers, which at some seasons of the year were very frequent in the land.” Alma 46:40. This sounds that describes tropical conditions in the area where the Nephites lived. Snow is never mentioned. There is no reference to seasons of war where the weather was favorable for military operations. Battles were not limited to times of the year which would have been a great military limiter in the Great Lakes region. “Scale” is also important. You can’t move armies of tens of thousands of people vast distances in the short time frames indicated in the Book of Mormon. Compare the scale of the Holy Land where you can access Palestine/Israel from Egypt in days or a couple of weeks at most. Scale in terms of description of water features such as the “sea east and the sea west.” These seas are the bodies of water that the Nephites and the Jaredites crossed to get to the land of their inheritance. Yes there are references to “large bodies of water” in the land northward, but this creates a difference between a “sea” and some other type of “body of water.” If these bodies of water were so formidable and large in size, they still weren’t big enough to be a “sea.” We DO NOT NEED TO KNOW where the Book of Mormon events took place. So - No One should be so hide bound and black and white to say they know. We don’t. At most this an interesting discussion but no more than that. People who “sell” their opinions are essentially trying to make money from this needless controversy.

[@Lamanitehistory]

Hopefully someday this channel will wake up and take a more open look at the better evidence that exists with the Hopewell. Book of Mormon evidence is greatly hindered by its meso-biased myopia. Hill Cumorah is Hill Cumorah. You should at least mention the reports of enormous amounts of arrowheads found there.

[@Kristy_not_Kristine]

Exactly! And it's where Joseph himself said it took place.

[@rfowkes1185]

The BofM authors never once describe cold or snow or winter, etc.

[@zsempai9]

@@rfowkes1185however, white as the driven snow is mentioned as well as whirlwinds that carried people away… not a meso-American weather activity. Neither does the Book of Mormon talk about the great rains that prevail in tropical America or any part of America. I have experienced those rains. I studied Mayan culture for decades. It is fascinating. I never found the Hebrew connection in latin America. I have seen it in the Hopewell archeological regions of the central US. Evidence must come in the Millennium for us all, as now we must walk by faith.

[@timmiestabrnak]

Reality is that the evidence points against any and all notion of historicity of the Book of Mormon, no matter where you want to jump it.

[@joncharlotteschoen]

What we need to stop doing is arguing over the mesoamerican versus the Hopewell theories. It doesn't serve us at all.

[@Evan.280]

I’m not a member of the LDS Church. But it’s great being able to learn more about it.

[@prestonwren]

Having been to the Hill Cumorah in New York, I can say for myself that it is in fact the one and only Hill Cumorah. It fits the description perfectly, especially when you consider all the phosphorous from decayed bones that is in the soil, and that the Great Lakes were larger during Moroni's time.

[@anderss6818]

I have been to the New York Hill Cumorah as well, but I don't believe that is the Cumorah talked about in the Book of Mormon. If there is phosphorus in the ground, that alone would not be enough to prove that is was a battle site.

[@CheesyLizzy]

Great video, but I wish there was a way to change the aspect ratio XD

[@lorindaluck3397]

In 1976 we lived in Binghamton New York. I used to listen to the radio during the daytimes. That year was the Nations Bi-Centennial Year. The radio station often gave one minute history messages. One day, they spoke about ALL THE BONES AND ARMOR found in New York state in many different mounds. He said that it was apparent there had been a large civilization in New York and war had destroyed them. I think there is evidence of bones and weapons, today some 48 years later, so much has been built on, I wouldn't doubt that these mounds were ignored, pushed aside and built upon.

[@wayneberry7630]

Thank you for your insight.

[@asierlanchodiego7203]

Here is what I have learnt from you so far, dear Jasmine: 1/ There were horses in America thousands of years ago. 2/ There is evidence for actual metal sword use in America. 3/ Americans seem to have been belligerent since the dawn of civilisation (230,000 casualties, wow), but I am not surprised by this. Also, you are extremely knowledgeable, Jasmine. I would very much like to see those who criticise you in the comments section even pull off such a well-researched video! ❤😊 I am just being honest here.

[@pgray5223]

You might be interested in a book published in 1851 by Ephraim George Squier. It is called Antiquities of the State of New York. He talks of various ancient burial mounds and lots of Earth Works and fortifications. He says that many have been excavated or had their contents scattered by "money-diggers". He says that "bone pits" occur in various parts of Western New York, Canada, Michigan. "One of these pits discovered some years ago, in the town of Cambria, Niagara County, was estimated to contain the bones of several thousand individuals." Anyway, a very interesting book.

[@sarahpeacock9686]

Back in the early 90's the Church changed the Cumorah pageant which required some digging into the hillside to adjust the soundstage. A local historian who was a church member was ushered into the back room one day by an older missionary. He told her that she might like to see...there were boxes and boxes and boxes of arrowheads that had been found while they were re-doing the staging for the pageant. She was told that the Church had asked the current contracted excavator to quietly, discreetly keep all artifacts they may find and store them quickly. They did not want anything leaked to the public for fear of a mass "run" to the Hill, which could potentially cause liability issues and safety concerns during excavation. The older missionary approaced the gal again within a couple of days of that event and informed her that all the boxes had disappeared overnight; presumably that they were sent to the Granite vaults in Salt Lake.

[@josephrodke7407]

Joseph Smith said that Illinois (mid-west) is the land of the Lamanites in a letter that he wrote to his wife, Emma. The landscape that is described in the Book of Mormon was GREATLY altered at the crucifiction of Jesus Christ. Nephi himself described a land of liberty. The United States of America is known among all the world as being a “land of liberty”. 2 Nephi 10:10-12 “10 But behold, this land, said God, shall be a land of thine inheritance, and the Gentiles shall be blessed upon the land. 11 And this land shall be a land of liberty unto the Gentiles, and there shall be no kings upon the land, who shall raise up unto the Gentiles. 12 And I will fortify this land against all other nations.” South America does NOT have the reputation as being a land of liberty. Cartels rule there. Up until 9-11-2001 the United States has been a fortified land against all other nations.

[@riannelson67]

Yes here is the quote: A few days after the open vision, the Prophet Joseph Smith in a letter to his wife Emma on June 4, 1834 near Atlas, Illinois on the Mississippi River said the following: “The whole of our journey, in the midst of so large a company of social honest and sincere men, wandering over the plains of the Nephites, recounting occasionally the history of the Book of Mormon, roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls & their bones, as a proof of its divine authenticity… During our travels we visited several of the mounds which had been thrown up by the ancient inhabitants of this country-Nephites, Lamanites, etc.” Joseph Smith Papers Letter to Emma Smith, 4 June 1834 Page 56

[@Art4Fred]

A man will get nearer to God by abiding its teachings than by any other book. It truly is a testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Find a missionary from the church and be one step closer to the Lord.

[@TrebizondMusic-cm6fp]

About swords and metallurgy: Nephi's Small Plates account was written hundreds of years before Mormon lived, and Mormon didn't even find it until he was halfway done with his abridgment. There's no reason to suppose that the metallurgy known by the first few generations of Small Plates scribes is identical to that known by Mormon, who mostly writes about precious metals. Mormon didn't write about metal swords; Moroni did, when he was abridging the Book of Ether. Ether himself was writing long after the events he narrated took place, and in the layers of his composition, Mosiah's translation, and Moroni's abridgment, there are a lot of opportunities for legends and factual inaccuracies to develop.

[@drgolfjim]

Great research. Thank you.

[@SmoothRuffian]

The Lord picked up and continued His work where it left off... in the hill where Moroni hid the plates, then spreading to the same areas of the midwest where anciently, the branch of the olive tree had been planted, grew good and bad fruit, then failed. Remember, Moroni hid. He didn't necessarily travel an extensive distance. Afterall, the battle grounds were Nephite territories and it is likely that the Lamanite victors would have gone back to their territories while bodies rotted.

[@timmiestabrnak]

There were no plates. It’s all a big con.

[@SmoothRuffian]

@@timmiestabrnak Dude go troll your ignorance somewhere else.

[@SpencerAcuna]

I always wondered if the New York Hill Cumorah was the same Hill Cumorah as in the Book of Mormon. Thank you for the clarification and for your testimony of faith! You are doing wonderful things in the world.

[@riannelson67]

Cumorah was in NY. Prophets testify. “Once the red men were many; they occupied the country from sea to sea - from the rising to the setting sun; the whole land . . . Thousands of moons ago, when the red men’s forefathers dwelt in peace and possessed this whole land the Great Spirit talked with them, and revealed His law and His will and much knowledge to their wise men and prophets. This they wrote in a Book . . . written on plates of gold and handed down from father to son for many ages and generations. It was then that the people prospered and were strong and mighty; they cultivated the earth, built buildings and cities and abounded in all good things, as the pale faces now do . . . This Book, which contained these things was hid in the earth by Moroni, in a hill called by him Cumorah, which hill is now in the state of New York, near the village of Palmyra, in Ontario county . . . Thus ended our first Indian mission, in which we had preached the Gospel in its fullness and distributed the record of their forefathers among three viz.: the Cattaraugus Indians, near Buffalo, N.Y., the Wyandots, of Ohio and the Delawares, west of Missouri.” Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt, pp. 56-6; Documentary History of the Church Vol 1: Footnotes 183:2-18

[@elijahhodges4405]

Iron swords and spear heads have been found in North America.

[@thealternativecontrarian9936]

Vikings and other immigrant groups?

[@BradenWBarty]

Take into consideration these facts. The belief among many LDS leaders that Christopher Columbus is the "man among the Gentiles" mentioned in 1 Nephi 13:12 is rooted in the interpretation that he was divinely inspired to discover the Americas. This scripture describes a man who was "separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters," and many leaders, including Brigham Young and James E. Talmage, have explicitly linked this figure to Columbus, asserting that he was moved by the Spirit of God to embark on his voyages. They argue that his discoveries were essential for preparing the way for the Restoration of the Gospel and the gathering of Israel. However, since Columbus never set foot in North America, this interpretation suggests that the events described in the Book of Mormon likely took place in Central America, where significant civilizations existed that align more closely with the text's descriptions. Thus, if Columbus is indeed viewed as a prophetic figure within this context, it further supports the argument that the Book of Mormon's narrative is geographically situated in Central America rather than North America.

[@Moksha-Raver]

The remains from the big fights in front of Gondor and Mordor can no longer be found.

[@elgallosabio4364]

I confess... I have not watched the video. But to expect to find bones after such a long period is quite... unusual. Whether we find bones or not depends upon the area, the soil, the local environment, etc. There have been archaeology digs just from World War 2, where there are no bones. The only way they knew a body was there was due to discoloration of the soil and/or other artifacts such as metal, plastics etc.

[@elijahhodges4405]

There were battles in England they can't find archeological evidence. I'm betting this wasn't the original hill.

[@jcall666]

President Hinckley said the Hill Cumorah as we know it in NY is the Hill Cumorah spoken of in the Book of Mormon

[@mgeuleinstsear]

@@jcall666There are several quotes by early Church leaders, too, who said that THAT was the same hill.

[@28starwarsfan]

@@jcall666 that's cool. Do you have the reference for that quote. I'd love to grab it.

[@sholeetunes]

In ancient times, bodies were not buried after a battle, but plundered until everything usable was gone. Then the animals came and took the remains. No wonder that you often don't find much there. In murder cases, it's similar with buried bodies: often only parts of the skeleton are found and the rest was carried off by animals. Here in Europe, however, we often find remains from old battles between Romans and Germanic tribes, such as parts of weapons, armor, clothing, coins and much more. If you look, you'll find something. If you don't find anything, then nothing was there.

[@kentthalman4459]

@@sholeetunes No native American nation ever developed the agriculture capable of supporting 250,000 troops.

[@andrewgoudy1776]

You're a talent. Thanks for teaching us.

[@jw5425]

it just amazes me that the church still has not and never will have a clear accurate location for the battles and cities in the book of mormon. WHY!? why hasn't the church come forward with that when we have had sooo much revelation

[@savedbygracethrufaith]

We never-ever-Mormons know the answer to this question…good question btw. You know the answer too.

[@jackbeckman7028]

She noted that in her video. It isn't the focus of the Book of Mormon, and we continue to receive revelation.

[@michaelbennett7561]

Ask God why he has not seen fit to provide such a revelation. Because it is not man that can demand revelation when God himself is not willing to give an answer.

[@davidgillis950]

The Lord answers this question in the Book of Mormon. 3 Nephi 26: “8 And these things have I written, which are a lesser part of the things which he taught the people; and I have written them to the intent that they may be brought again unto this people, from the Gentiles, according to the words which Jesus hath spoken. 9 And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first, to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them. 10 And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.” The point of the Book of Mormon is to help us have faith in Jesus Christ. The prophet Alma taught in his 32nd chapter, “21 And now as I said concerning faith-faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.” The Lord has left certain knowledge blank so that we can learn to have faith on Him because that is what saves us.

[@matthewdawson9364]

I think it would distract from the central purpose of the gospel, to have faith in Christ. If we get caught up in the details we wouldn't focus on what matters most

[@amoskowitz0103]

In fertile soil, like the soil in and around the Hill Cumorah, bones last for about 20 years. Do you have any other questions?

[@ewlarson8257]

Yes, I have followed the Wayne May studies for Book of Mormon archeology found in the Northeast & Areas towards Canada such as the areas surrounding the Great Lakes region. I think that is the real history areas

[@mikeh4506]

Didn't this channel lecture us about caring about Book of Mormon geography?

[@darkforge15]

The hill in New York isn't even the hill Cumorah. Mormon 6:6 says "[I] hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni." The plates he gave to Moroni are the plates that Joseph Smith found in New York. They are not the same plates that were buried in the hill Cumorah.

[@davidrawlings1176]

@@darkforge15 wrong. I think Moroni knows a thing or 2 about what he is talking about. The books of Nephi 1 to Mosiah were taken from the repository on the not from the stone box.

[@davidrawlings1176]

They were called the small plates. They were later returned to the depository by Joseph and Oliver.

[@darkforge15]

@@davidrawlings1176 That's not what I was talking about.

[@davidrawlings1176]

@@darkforge15 are you serious? Moroni, himself called it the Hill Cumorah during his 1st manifestation to JS in 9/1823.

[@davidrawlings1176]

What Mormon didn’t give to Moroni he put in the repository located inside the Hill Cumorah

[@Bluewater9]

⚓️💙🇺🇸 A powerful desire to search for the Truth is Almighty Gods limitless Faith in full exhibition. May it always be the shining Glory reigning over the structure of his covenants. Amen ⚓️💙🇺🇸

[@rconger24]

" _..and all flesh shall see it together._ " -Isaiah

[@cyberherbalist]

No way that hill was the Cumorah in the Book of Mormon. Humans have a limited treasury of names or words. They frequently assign names based on other names. For example, the animal called the "moose" in North America is called "elk" in Europe. The animal called "elk" in North America doesn't exist in Europe. My Indian ancestors in Northern California used their word for "deer" to refer to the horses and cows of the European settlers. Giving names to places is done similarly. There are something like 50 towns and cities in the world called "Springfield."

[@VincentNoot]

I read somewhere, not sure where, that the only reason that the hill in New York is called Cumorah is because Joseph smith started calling it that…. Later. Why would anyone think that Moroni, after years of wandering, would come back to the same hill that was 1) probably infested with lamanites and 2) just happened to be in the same hill because there were no others around, and after years… it’s more likely that he went far away from where he was being hunted down. This is why nobody should immediately dismiss the mesoamerican theory, just because of the 2 cumorah assumption.

[@timmiestabrnak]

There are no moose in Europe. Moose and elk are two different animals. As for the rest of your comment, it’s just a cliché. What you’re saying is mental gymnastics that does not fit with the churches narrative of Joseph making the quote the most correct book“ and of God “putting the words directly on his stone“. Native Americans, in the timeline of the book of Mormon would have no concept of a horse so they would not have used the term horse. They should’ve just called the animal exactly what it was. But Jasmine has gone down this road so many times and there is so many problems with the mental gymnastics to try to justify this, Jasmine has contradict herself several times on it. Horse, does not tappier and it does not mean hippo. The book of Mormon talks about chariots, which are two wheeled horse-drawn vehicles.

[@cyberherbalist]

@@timmiestabrnak "There are no moose in Europe. Moose and elk are two different animals."

[@paulblack1799]

​@@timmiestabrnak moose were introduced to north America FROM Europe.

[@paulblack1799]

Cyber...sooooo... your point is that the hill Cumorah is actually an ungulate quadruped?

[@jaredphd5587]

Elder James E. Talmage of the Council of the Twelve made the following statements to Elder Golden Jensen who was serving as secretary of the Eastern States Mission in New York in 1920, which Elder Jensen recorded in a letter to a friend in 1954: "...as a result of a survey and extensive analysis made by him, while a student in an eastern university, the soils of the surrounding area to be very rich in calcium, and phosphate content, in the soils particularly adjacent to the Hill Cumorah. With further investigation he discovered that there was a lack of these elements in the land which lay further than a few miles in radius in any direction from the Hill Cumorah. To him, this discovery was indicative of the fact that there was decaying of bones of the Nephite and Lamanite armies that perished there."

[@davidrawlings1176]

Let me say that Moroni told Joseph, during his 1st visit that the plates had been written and deposited in the Hill Cumorah not far from his home. Since there was a depository in the Hill ( I’m not referring to the stone box) known to the 3 witnesses and others (Brigham Young and a few others) it stands to reason that was the place that Mormon did his abridgment including his own Book and where Moroni added his before making the deposit. Why not the depository already contained a library of ancient records perhaps including those of the Jaradites since that was the location of their final battle.

[@kathleennewberry1963]

Please explain where Joseph Smith went if not he Hill Cumorah to get the. Plates.

[@crunk1]

At the end of the Book of Mormon, Moroni buries the plates but does not say that it is the Hill Cumorah; the place is not named. He received the plates from his father, Mormon, at the Hill Cumorah and then continued living for 30+ years before burying the plates. The suggestion in this video is that the Hill Cumorah and the place where Joseph Smith received the plates could be separate places (a theory I subscribe to, personally).

[@cjbookkeepingconsulting]

Here's something I found interesting in the autobiography of John Galt (1779-1839 Scottish author and Canadian colonizer). While travelling north of Toronto he discovered "an ancient fortification that pre-dates Columbus". Obviously, he didn't think the natives built it, but some other more advanced civilization did. I truly believe reference to "land northward", the "narrow pass", east west, south and north "sea" refer to Canada, the short distance between great lakes and the great lakes themselves, respectively.

[@gregb6469]

So where are these fortifications? Why could not native Americans have built them?

[@cjbookkeepingconsulting]

@@gregb6469 Find the autobiography of John Galt. Then keyword search "ancient fortification". Also interesting is his observation of the trees in that area and how the Book of Mormon mentions how they "suffered" to let trees grow back for lumber in the land northward.

[@dc2717]

Lots of interesting content. But I can’t keep up! Is there a way to slow down the speed that she talks?

[@Kristy_not_Kristine]

Yes, you can adjust the speed under settings. Faster or slower, depending on your needs

[@dc2717]

@ thank you 🙏

[@reppi8742]

Is your research really that poor or do you know you are not telling the truth?

[@hbwilly54]

As a missionary in the new york I was asked this question. I directed them to the drinking foundation and asked them to taste the water and tell me at doesn't taste like a whole nation died there

[@gregb6469]

Ha, ha!

[@lukeslc-xd8ds]

????????????