Why hasn't archaeology uncovered evidence of Book of Mormon cities and culture? Ep. 103

Why haven’t archaeologists found anything in the New World that categorically proves that the Book of Mormon is true? It’s a question as old as the Book of Mormon itself, and it’s the subject Dave addressed in this episode.
Transcript and potentially additional notes: bit.ly/3hGJH8T
“The Cultural Tapestry of Mesoamerica,” by Mark Alan Wright (fantastic paper): bit.ly/3l6NY64
Incredible developing research on Semitic and Egyptian elements in Uto-Aztecan languages: bit.ly/2GjFhq8
Quite a scholarly article from William Hamblin on Book of Mormon archaeology and how it compares to Biblical archaeology: bit.ly/3liirOH
Recent Lidar tech discoveries that are revealing how little we know about Mesoamerican lands: on.natgeo.com/33qs5Zg
“Archaeology, Relics, and Book of Mormon Belief,” by John Clark: bit.ly/33mupR5
“Behind the Mask, Behind the Curtain: Uncovering the Illusion,” by Brant Gardner: bit.ly/30M9wgf
Jerusalem Post: “The Exodus: Does archaeology have a say?”: bit.ly/33muGDE
Notes:
-Scholar Brant Gardner opines that, “We do not find Book of Mormon names in Maya inscriptions for two reasons. First, few inscriptions are contemporary with the Book of Mormon. Second, they come from cities that are not considered by Latter-day Saint scholars to have been Nephite. If the vast majority of names refer to the kings and queens of a particular location and that location is not Nephite, we have little hope of finding a reference to a Nephite name there.” Source: bit.ly/30M9wgf
-Some people have the following question: If Lehi’s party was a small fish in a big cultural pond, why doesn’t the Book of Mormon talk about any of these other major cultures? The answer may simply be that the Book of Mormon was a lineage history, not a comprehensive history. It strictly covers the history of Lehi’s family, with the exception of the story of the Jaredites. There is also brief mention of the Mulekites (who also came from the Old World around the same time as Lehi’s party), but we don’t get hardly any information about their history. Also, it would have been against the Law of Moses for Israelites to intermarry with non-covenant peoples, so there could have been some separation in that sense. In my opinion, the Lamanites would have disregarded that rule fairly quickly. It’s also important to note that there is precedent in Mesoamerican history for selectively ignoring different cultures. See page 12 of this link: bit.ly/3l6NY64
-In the 2nd or 3rd century BC, we read in the book of Omni that the language of the Mulekites “had become corrupted… and Mosiah, nor the people of Mosiah could understand them.” So, Mosiah “caused that they should be taught in his language.” But then not long after at the beginning of the Book of Mosiah we read that King Benjamin “caused that [his three sons] should be taught in all the language of his fathers…” Why would they have to be taught in the language of their fathers if it’s already the language that everyone spoke? It could very well be that by this time the Old World Nephite language was only used by the upper class or for potential record-keepers. And by the end of the Book of Mormon we get some additional support for that theory, when Mormon writes that the Book of Mormon has been written in reformed Egyptian characters, “being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech.” He continues, “the Hebrew hath been altered by us also… [and] none other people knoweth our language; and because that none other people knoweth our language, therefore [God] hath prepared means for the interpretation thereof.” Food for thought.
-If you’re interested in looking into some research that has been done on Hebrew in the Americas, you may want to look at the work of Dr. Brian Stubbs (link: bit.ly/2GjFhq8 ), or the work of Dr. James Harris and Dann Hone (link: bit.ly/2Hqh7KL ). I’m not a linguist so it’s quite difficult for me to evaluate the merit (or lack thereof) of their work, but it might be a good place to start if you’re interested in diving deeper. I did find Stubbs’ work quite compelling.
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[@SaintsUnscripted]

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: You are not in a Matrix simulation. THIS EPISODE IS A RE-UPLOAD. It was originally posted back in December 2020, but we later discovered some historical inaccuracies that we felt strongly about correcting. We have done so, and present it to you once more to enjoy with greater accuracy. :) Thank you for your patience, and may the Force be with you.

[@brendanwilsonvfx5705]

That's... Sort of a misunderstanding of the gospel? Also you do remember what was that phrase or verse talking about in particular correct? Also corrections are made all of the time, Hense the atonement.

[@brettmajeske3525]

@@systematicrisk Saints Unscripted have never claimed infallibility. Frankly nether does the book of Mormon or any LDS Scripture.

[@johnram2172]

I appreciate the honesty.

[@jime3281]

@@brettmajeske3525 He's just some dime-a-dozen anti-Mormon attempting a snide comment

[@victorazielsmusicaldiary965]

Look into Egyptian temple in Tennessee, look up actual Egyptian relics in the grand canyon areas. Look up actual swords and breastplates coming from the great lakes area. The evidence is out there. Even the descriptions of the book of Mormon have Egyptian writing. Evidence Is there.

[@brettallen1440]

As an active member of the church this is a question that gives me a healthy skepticism. I really enjoyed the video, this provides some great perspective.

[@devonkaufman2482]

Look into the seer stones and the BOM translation. It's very telling!

[@aprilbateman1891]

Truth is, all the evidence for the Book of Mormon is north of the Rio Grande. Check out presentations by Wayne May, Amberli Nelson, and Rod Meldrum, among others. There is a boatload of archaeological evidence in the mound-building cultures of Borth America-breastplates, swords, Hebrew inscriptions, etc. Not to mention that in North America, there is evidence of all the things they would need to live the Law of Moses-sheep, goats, barley, etc. I encourage you to check it out.

[@MultiJejje]

One of my main problems are that there is no DNA evidence at all that people who lived in the Middle East would have lived in Southern America or so. Zero. It was like 50's or 60's that Church's president talked about this and told it's so clear that Jewish people came to America and no one should doubt it. Well, then there wasn't DNA tests. And there wasn't horses or sheeps or animals close to that. Probably wrote something wrong, I'm from Finland.

[@NA-en7kz]

Look into the Mound Builders aka the Hopewells. They are a more ancient civilization that existed in the Eastern US and much of what has been found seems to align closely with the Book of Mormon events.

[@nateypecks]

@@devonkaufman2482 that story is also likely NOT true. The first person to advocate for it was an apostate who was never a scribe and who fell in with very dubious characters (David Whitmer). Emma's account followed his by several years when she, too, was apostate.

[@jonathanwilliams1641]

Maybe make a video about the View of the Hebrews? Strange how a book came out just a few years before the Book of Mormon which had many of the same ideas: Native Americans were descended from the Ten Lost Tribes, they arrived after a long sea journey, two groups engaged in long wars with the eventual destruction of the "good" group by the "evil", and that the gospel of Jesus was preached in ancient America. Coincidence? The kicker is that Joseph Smith's scribe Oliver Cowdery lived for 5 years in the same small Vermont town where the author of 'View of the Hebrews' lived. I grew up in the LDS church and I was never told that many, many writers before Joseph Smith were speculating that Native Americans were actually descendants of the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel.

[@dylanwilliams2202]

Here you go: m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/fJDVnn6qfcinkNk

[@MrArtist7777]

Have you read The View of the Hebrews? I have and it has NOTHING to do with the Book of Mormon. Your assumptions are way off. The View of the Hebrews was a fictional book about some Romans who were blown off course, around the year: ~200 C.E., landed on the east coast of the U.S. and met the Native Americans who claimed to be descendants of Israelites. The Romans spent some time among the Natives and returned home, that's it. MANY people knew Joseph Smith and spent nearly every waking moment with him and never saw him read any View of the Hebrews, or any other book before the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph's own mother said she never saw Joseph reading a book, except the family Bible during family time. Yes, some people speculated that Native Americans descended from ancient Israel because their language and customs nearly matched Jews in Israel, Joseph Smith testified of this exact same thing after translating the record of the ancient Native Americans. Likewise, some have speculated that the ancient Celts of Ireland, Wells and Scotland are descendants of ancient Israel as their language is also Semitic and their ancient customs are very similar to ancient Israel's. And they are. People were with Joseph when he found the plates and personally saw him and witnessed for themselves, him looking through two clear stones at the plates, speaking the works he saw while Oliver Cowdery wrote them down. Day after day they saw the same thing. They immediately took those writings of Oliver to a publisher and had the Book of Mormon printed. There's NO way Joseph could have spent months, or years, reading other books and writing his own book without anyone else seeing and then faking seeing tens of thousands of words while looking at plates. It's impossible.

[@Nepthu]

@@MrArtist7777 You say View of The Hebrews has nothing to do with BOM yet even your summary highlights how BOM could easily be a ripoff of a fictional story.

[@joeshawcroft7121]

I've read view of the Hebrews and there is nothing similar to it and the Book of Mormons except a common prevailing belief at the time that Native Americans could have been descended from the lost tribes of Israel.

[@jonathanwilliams1641]

@@joeshawcroft7121 I sincerely doubt you've actually read View of the Hebrews, but I'll take you at your word. But to claim that it has "nothing" similar to it and the Book of Mormon, other than the (central) claim that Native Americans came from the lost tribes of Israel is simply dishonest. Many scholars have compared them and listed the many similarities. Even believing Mormons have acknowledged the many, many similarities. BH Roberts wrote: "Not a few things merely, one or two, or half dozen, but many; and it is this fact of many things of similarity and the cumulative force of them that makes them so serious a menace to Joseph Smith's story of the Book of Mormon's origin." You are either being dishonest or you are very poor at reading comprehension. When I was raised in the church I was told repeatedly that Joe was the only one who claimed that Native Americans WERE the recent descendants of Isrealites. Just read the intro to a Book of Mormon before the "one true church" changed it because the DNA evidence shows the claims to be wrong. You are trying to defend an undefensable position.

[@millenialhymns]

The reference point was given to Joseph Smith. Zarahemla across from Nauvoo as stated in D&C. Why is this not taken into consideration?

[@daveduncan2748]

I tend toward the Heartland model, but the Zarahemla reference in D&C 125:3 is far from definitive. "3 Let them build up a city unto my name upon the land opposite the city of Nauvoo, and let the name of Zarahemla be named upon it." Nevertheless, there is a lot of evidence of the Hopewell indians that matches up far better with the Book of Mormon than anything I've seen in the Meso model.

[@vitalykartavykh1003]

The name of Zarahemla is not Zarahemla itself.

[@lordcycle]

Your missing on big thing. The mayan had a written language and in the mayan hieroglyphs theres no mention of anything from the book of mormon

[@leannpurtzer6485]

Absolutely true.

[@leannpurtzer6485]

Also, there are living Mayan descendants who have no oral history of mormans. Plus no DNA evidence exists to support Mayans being descendants of Israelites or any Middle Eastern culture.

[@lordcycle]

@@leannpurtzer6485 if jesus was in the americas teaching the native americans wouldn't the mayans recognized the jesus on the cross the spanish were carrying? They didn't they rejected it. Mormon apologist ignore simple facts like that

[@MrArtist7777]

True, because the Maya have NOTHING to do with the Book of Mormon, however, the Natives of the Great Lakes, U.S., spoke ancient Hebrew and have stories mirroring the Book of Mormon events.

[@lordcycle]

@@MrArtist7777 There's no evidence that the piaute language in utah has anything to do with ancient hebrew. Its a uto aztecan language related to the mexica of mexico city. You guys need to stop with this trying to use natives as evidence. If you believe so much in the book of mormon why don't archeologists from BYU go and find real evidence and present it?

[@ManInThePandaMask]

4:25 why is nobody talking about how the fish saying hello translates to "epstein didn't kill himself"? LOL

[@Vagabondobiondo]

Dude no way

[@lovely-shrubbery8578]

BAAASED

[@jisharresendiz3336]

Was this re-uploaded?, I feel like I've seen this one allready

[@gorgonops555]

Yeas it is

[@SaintsUnscripted]

Yes! This was last week’s episode but there was an error that we felt we needed to correct.

[@byronmyers8275]

Rationalization at its best.

[@user-gs1bo9oh9u]

Lds church stands on lies , And with out lies it would fell

[@johnd5094]

Confirmation bias

[@ThePreachingOfHisWord]

​@@user-gs1bo9oh9uExactly!

[@karendinkel9040]

So crazy how few meso American sites have been discovered /explored

[@OPWasatchReptiles]

There have been plenty of discoveries and exploration made. All that have been discovered and explored show zero proof for any of the events, names, languages, animals or artifacts mentioned in Joseph’s book.

[@BrianaMartinez-wu6jh]

@@OPWasatchReptileswhat animals may I ask because last time I checked with my leaders and talked to my ancestors we native’s definitely had horses and were advanced enough to create families and be on our own compared to the other side of the world

[@OPWasatchReptiles]

@@BrianaMartinez-wu6jh well it’s actually common knowledge that Europeans brought horses, pigs, cattle’s and domestic sheep/goats with them. Natives of americas did not have these animals. They did have llamas, turkeys, dogs and in some area of the north some natives had domesticated the reindeer.

[@OPWasatchReptiles]

@@BrianaMartinez-wu6jh I never discredited the natives ability to procreate and developed cities. However, it’s also common knowledge that until the arrival of the Europeans. Natives did not ride on horses, nor did they make medal tools of iron, copper, brass etc. they didn’t have horses carriages, or sword, or spears and helmets made of medal.

[@OPWasatchReptiles]

@@BrianaMartinez-wu6jh additionally the names, languages and culture that are mentioned are not found anywhere in the America’s. The natives people of americas are not related to the Hebrew in any way. Genetically, culturally or linguistically.

[@bobbq8380]

I was pretty critical myself about there being, all honestly, not much archeological evidence to back up book of mormon. I'm a member of the church, but like some critics, would like to see some pretty good evidence of the book of mormon too. Also, just want to add that ironically no matter how much critics despise or love to try to discredit the book of mormon, they know how wonderful it would be if the book of mormon turns out to be true. If they really want to know, they'll chill out as any atheists should that even want a testimony of the holy Bible itself. I took a college class once called the art and architecture of ancient Latin America. Knowing about the book of mormon, I of course couldn't help but want to find SOMEthing that could back up the book of mormon. The church doesn't really say book of mormon events happened particularly only in ancient latin America. Neither was the class I took 100% about overall archeological findings I believe but pretty darn close. Nor did I find much that was for sure fool proof evidence of book of mormon. However, I sure did see and find things that can back up book of mormon or echoed things I knew about in the book of mormon. I remember asking my professor of this class, who believed in God too, of this big dilemma we believers in God still inevitably face regarding God's overall interactions and dealings with His kids throughout history.. I'll stretch out several specifics about this dilemma. Known history of man on earth goes on for about 5000 years according to the bible. Some say even 6000. The separated surrounding isles and American continent in their separated form, distant from the land masses in eastern hemisphere has been around for at least 5000 years. Many say waaaaay more than that. Apparently about 525 million years ago. That's another story that includes a lot of dinosaurs whose bones are found everywhere on the planet. Ancient Americans were very much around for most or all of these years covering at least 3000 long years of civilization in ancient Latin America. SO.. my question not just to the professor, but any faithful is why is it God spoke with man for well over 5000 years in the eastern side of the world, but not one time to His kids in the western hemisphere? God spoke with his prophets in the old world or eastern hemisphere for 1000s of years right?? But totally left out His kids in the western hemisphere this whole time?? Book of mormon or not, it is absolutely absurd or strange, peculiar notion that God for thousands of years interacted with man on one side of the planet but not the other. A God who so loved the WHOLE world, that he gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believing in Him may not perish but have everlasting life. I pointed this out to my professor. I did confront this issue and how very off it was that there would be so much, evidence or not, that God did for his kids on one side of the world but just nothing on the other side of the world.. a very smart man I know who is an lds scientist, but scientist nonetheless, knows tons of things that can back up the book of mormon. He runs a website called www.mormonhaven.com Check him out and ask away critic or not. There are several other videos that give pretty decent evidence, maybe not a whole lot, but some pretty neat stuff reminiscent of book of mormon. Some are native American names and words very similar to both Hebrew language AND Egyptian hieroglyphs, variety of ancient gold plates just like the book of mormon ones discovered around the planet, Hebrew or obvious middle eastern artifacts found in America, metal armor and swords found in America, and several uncommon book of mormon names that have been discovered as well. Bottom line, gotta say it's quite obvious that ALL faiths are all a huge lie or a fraud. All are indeed so or all but one. BUT, that shouldn't mean we all have to keep disrespecting each other or fight each other over stupid differences like different beliefs?? Humans have insulted, killed, hated, and criticized each other since the very beginning for the most pathetic and most pitiful, simple reasons. We're all stuck on this planet. A great way to make the best of it is to not let things like religion dictate at all who you care about and who you deem your friends or family. I've criticized and opposed my old Roman-catholic faith more than anything on this planet. But I've still been able to be great friends with Catholics, remain as family with certain catholic family, and been able to give much humanitarian support alongside catholic church. Religion or not, lets not hate on each other so much over such pitiful differences yeah.

[@yerfaceful]

Look up evidence for it taking place in North America. There’s much more evidence then any other theory

[@BGCflyer]

The apostles went to India and as far as China before they were all killed, spreading Christianity. The Bible as we know it today started going around the world in the 1500’s, after the reformation…The Book of Mormon didn’t start going around the word till after 1830. So when you think about it. The Bible was sufficient for the purpose of sharing Jesus around the world. Why are there no maps for the Book of Mormon? We have plenty of maps for the Bible. Where are the manuscripts of the Book of Mormon prophets like we have of the biblical apostles? You might not agree but I don’t see evidence that the Book of Mormon is authentic scripture the way the Bible is.

[@giovannifarinacci5946]

Thank you for your coment. The truth is that not everything has been discovered yet. To assume there isn't evidence for the Book of Mormon because currently there isn't is a big mistake. But I agree that there are indeed a number of significant discoveries that suggest its truth. One of the big ones that I can recall studying about are parallels between the Uto-Aztecan language family and some Semitic languages (in particular Hebrew and Egyptian), the dating of archaeological sites in particular regions of the New World, the discovery of an altar in Yemen with very likely connections to the place "Nahom" mentioned in 1 Nephi 16, a region in Oman that corresponds in at least 20 details with the place called by Nephi's group "Bountiful", numerous long and intricate chiasmuses in the text (as well as other hebrewisms), and one of the biggest with regards to authorship- studies in "stylometry" that suggest neither Joseph Smith nor one of his scribes authored it, but at least 30 other different authors, according to their "word-print" analysis. I recommend learning about these if you haven't already. There are many videos on KZbin that touch on these. But honestly there are many more that should be considered before anyone dismisses them. But inspite of all these likely possibilities the most reliable source is God himself. Moroni promises that if anyone reads, ponders and asks God if the book is true with a "sincere heart, having real intent, and faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it onto them by the power of the Holy Ghost" (Moroni 10:3-5). I have done the experiment and have received a personal witness from God of its truth. Meanwhile in the absence of further possible evidences I'm basically satisfied for I know that the Lord does not lie nor does he favor one person more than another.

[@totalmalarkey]

I am VERY late to this, but here's my issue as an atheist. NO. Wholeheartedly NO I do not believe it would be better if the book of mormon was true. I dont believe that the world would be better if almost any (I suppose there could be a crazy form that agrees with what I belive but that would hardly be christianiry then) form of Christianity was true.

[@estebancarbajal6014]

How about Hill Cumorah in up state NY? Former presidents of the church referred to that hill as the one mentioned in the BoM. There's nothing there.

[@enoccecena7865]

What were you expecting to be there? Moroni buried the book of Mormon there; more than a thousand years later Joseph Smith translated the plates and the angel Moroni took them to heaven.

[@vitalykartavykh1003]

That's the wrong Cumorah. There's another video about that.

[@GilObregon-hj6zh]

@@vitalykartavykh1003 GREAT!! Now, there's TWO Hill Cumorahs in upstate New York?! Do you happen to know which small town is nearest the "real one" -- so that I can find it (the town) on Google Maps? Thanks!

[@jetman_86]

⁠​⁠​⁠@@GilObregon-hj6zhI think they are talking about how the hill in New York was nicknamed the hill Cumorah by people, but the actual one mentioned in the Book of Mormon is somewhere we don’t know. I could be wrong but that’s what I remember

[@vitalykartavykh1003]

@@GilObregon-hj6zh The Hill Cumorah we know isn't real, the "real" is lost in Mesoamerica. There is an episode in Saints Unscripted about that. The hill where Moroni buried the plates and Joseph Smith found them is not the Cumorah where Nephites and Lamanites had their last battles that destroyed both nations.

[@XClary]

I never thought of it like that. Great video

[@lukenollmusic1]

Haven’t they excavated the whole book of Joshua? Jordan River crossing(Gilgal) and the wall of Jericho?

[@Isacc..]

Wow just wow, there are plenty of paintings, tablets, drawings, bones poetry ect that identify some of these discoveries in the americas as well as other places in the world. You cant just say they are found and someone just comes along and labels them randomly as what they want. Alot goes into identification and studying of the sites. Its very rare there are sites found with nothing else around them such as any signs of people living near buy, or the buliders or no paintings and carvings or architecture that is completely out of the norm and never before unseen, heard of or spoken about in history before. Gobeki tepi seems to such sort of a place. Only a very small portion has been uncovered yet but doesn't seem to be a place people lived around, was purposely buried for some reason. The type of build and architecture is completely out of place too as its from a time were mankind was thought to still be in caves and hunter gatherers at best. It seems to date from 10'000-30'000 years old. Not so much the time period but something like that is what youd expect to find in the americas perhaps with some carvings paintings and drawings in some of their stuff matching that of the time jesus was alive and were he was from as jesus was said to have been a huge influence on them. You certainly dont see nothing like that in any of the americas finds...do you ?

[@gary1636]

Check out Wayne May's Quick start to Comorah also. The link I sent you is a different author

[@seans5289]

Does anyone remember what challenging and insightful question I asked about the original upload?

[@BrendonKing]

Sadly no

[@brettmajeske3525]

How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop?

[@seans5289]

@@brettmajeske3525: Witness testimony says 3

[@Gabrielwachter672]

Moab had become a tributary of Assyria by the late 8th century bc and was conquered by the Babylonians in 582 bc, upon which the Moabites disappeared from history. FYI - we still have Moabite artifacts and stone writings. That was 1500 years ago. I'm not seeing significantly more time since the Nephites have been destroyed. Personally I'd love to tour Zarahemla. But in the mean time I'm not holding my breath. Its peace out for now.

[@xnihilo64]

It's like saying unicorns exist. All I have to do is find one.

[@tannerm7303]

If you have only observed 1% of the animal kingdom its would be premature to say they don't exist for sure. If there's 99% of the animal kingdom to explore its possible unicorns would exist.

[@johnlewis6526]

You’re map in the beginning is inaccurate. Didn’t Nephi sail from Arabia through that Pacific Ocean?

[@milesmoore8705]

Yep, around the horn of Africa to n America. Nephii said the voyage took many days, meaning under a year, probably just a month or two. One can not sail in under a year across the Indian and Pacific ocean to central or south America.

[@zairatulumierah9436]

@@milesmoore8705 never heard that

[@victoriagledhill5872]

Please do one on the heartland theory!!! There is so much to talk about!!!

[@philandrews2860]

The "Stick of Joseph" channel has already done this. "Mormonism with the Murph" has done this also. "Saints Unscripted" typically shows just the mainstream Mesoamerican theory here because it does not try to present all the different Book of Mormon geography theories as that is not its purpose, which is similar to Book of Mormon Central's purpose. All of these channels are really cool (I like them all), but they each have their different purposes and audiences. There are many, including me, who favor the mainstream Mesoamerica theory that David Snell points out in this video, and if he were to present all the other Book of Mormon geography theories out there, it would just confuse their main target audience, in my opinion, and would make the video much more convoluted and lengthy.

[@TJWins225]

Did you already do this?

[@KevlarX2]

Yeah they did. They erased the other one for some reason.

[@SaintsUnscripted]

Yes, we did. You are not in a simulation. :) We went back and corrected some historical inaccuracies and reuploaded it.

[@bobbq8380]

"Aztecs" STILL go by Mexica..

[@Franky566]

actually, "Mexico," wasnt a thing until Cortez conqered Tenochtitlan, thus turning it into "Mexico City." and the Aztecs were absolutely not the only ethnic group in the area. not by a long shot.

[@Franky566]

also the only reason the Conquistadores were able to conqer the Aztecs is because Montezuma was mass executing hundreds of thousands of people on a daily basis in ritualistic sacrifice, thus making everyone in the entire area all unanimously agree that they had to be stopped.

[@zrosix2240]

@@Franky566 nothing you said was remotely true. Mexica and Mexico are not the same name, and ritualistic sacrifice was embraced by society. In fact, many volunteered for the practice, and many of those conquistadors attempted to save REFUSED to be saved. Furthermore, it wasn’t even CLOSE to hundreds of thousands.

[@Franky566]

@@zrosix2240 citation needed. my sources are: 1. smithsonian 2. national geographic 3. harvard 4.bbc hostory doesnt care about you politics

[@mikemaresca4999]

Merneptah Stele Mesha Stele Tel Dan Stele Kurkh Monoliths Shroud of Turin The Dead Sea Scrolls While all of these things can be argued as to how they do or do not validate the Biblical record, they do exist to be argued over. By your line of logic, absolutely anything could be conjured up as a historical record, and never require any authenticity or validity check.

[@kidgay3730]

Throughout the entire video you don't mention all of the maya text carved on stone or painted on pottery. Not common, but we do have the written names of most of the 1% excavated. Doesn't change much, but for clarification.

[@sterlingturner5318]

If the BOM were true, I just find it hard to believe that God with allow so many things from the Bible to be found but none for the Book of Mormon.

[@markschwartz3985]

It may just be a question of different timing. It logically makes sense that we would have more archeological evidence for a book that has been around for 1800+ years (the Bible) than a book that has been around for less than 200 years (the Book of Mormon)

[@LegoStarWarsGuy]

@@markschwartz3985 the events of the Bible and book of Mormon take place at the same time so the artifacts themselves are the same age regardless of the book. So the timing of the book coming out doesn't impact the archaeological discoveries. I don't think it's a coincidence that when you look at the stuff people dig up in Israel/Assyria/Egypt, there are things that confirm people and events from the Bible. But you dig up things in America, there is nothing which relates at all to the book of Mormon.

[@Grim_Azrael]

@@markschwartz3985 lol what a wacky conclusion

[@dougstaker2934]

Um, we know where Israel is... so we know where to look.

[@toddpatterson242]

Archeology does nothing to confirm BOM.

[@artsychica82]

5:32 You got to watch more Discovery Channel, a man covered this topic of the flood, he found some evidence and even showed a river bed dry up overnight and fill back up...

[@russellricksbooks2579]

I still agree with the Heartland theory more. Joseph Smith spoke of traveling through the land of the Nephites, picking up the bones, etc? The Central American mayan temples don't correlate with Israelite temples. You need to talk to Wayne May, even interview him. Please get Wayne on your program!

[@protochris]

The problem with parallels to the exodus is that those semitic slaves were nomadic and didn't build great civilizations; even the temple was just a temporary tabernacle. But we have discoveries of Hezekiah's tunnel, and the Cyrus cylinder, and remnants of the Temple. In the New Testament we have Herod's palace at Maritima, the pool of Bethesda, and important places like "the sea of galilee". The Book of Mormon has yet to match up even one artifact or region.

[@blusheep2]

not to mention there are gobs of circumstantial evidence for the Exodus.

[@curtiscarwile498]

So, the evidence is that you "just haven't found anything yet"?

[@patrickcate1070]

My thoughts exactly lol

[@keithpierce3552]

Nothing has been found in Central America that significantly supports the Book of Mormon.

[@mrselizavl5250]

This video doesn't go into the evidence found by Rod Meldrum and Wayne May in the Heartland theory, much stronger evidence there imo. A good video or two is Cwic's interviews with Johnanthan Neville

[@tannerm7303]

It's premature to say it doesn't exist when you have only observed 1% of possible locations of evidence

[@majesticliberatoroftheoppr3971]

Perturbed heartlander here. 😂. I’d love to see you do a video on Wayne May / Meldrum/ Bruce porter heartlander stuff. It’s amazing! Mesoamerica has its story, including I believe a visitation of Jesus Christ. But from my research, the heartland model makes way more sense. And the evidence is very impressive.

[@russellricksbooks2579]

I was just about to type the same comments. Thank you and ditto "Wayne May, Rod Meldrum ... "

[@UtahKent]

Don't be too perturbed. Maybe you too can get in on the cash cow of the Heartland crew or you can sell guided tours to the Mesoamerican sites like some folks on the other side... 2 things about the conflict bug me. 1. People on both sides who make bank on their pet theory, 2. People who set their view as an article of faith defining true belief. Like those who insist you take their side on these peripheral issues or you really aren't "aware of what the Prophet actually taught. " Whether it's geography of translation methodology we are allowing the Advocery cause division.

[@majesticliberatoroftheoppr3971]

@@UtahKent thank you. First, There are those who choose to create books, lead tours, and otherwise make KZbin videos, etc. for monetary gain. They are providing a service. I have no problem with this. Second, stating that one’s belief is an article of faith, is a little strong. Rather, these are important points to discuss, i.e. location, and translation mediums. Unless we want to chalk the book up as a fantasy, it must be grounded in reality. This is an important discussion and important work to allow a fertile soil for faith to thrive. All things have not yet been perfectly revealed, so it is natural to have some disagreements. These, however, do not need to be contentious, but we should closely evaluate all evidence to assist our restoration claims.

[@daveduncan2748]

@@UtahKent Show me any science or research that happens without money. I don't think you realize the way things work.

[@Franky566]

its not that it doesnt give absolute evidence... its that all of the evidence specificaly dis-prooves the entire thing.

[@thehastyterrainmaker9485]

Even with limited sites discovered and being dug, what HAS been uncovered does NOT support BoM claims though. Any archeological site even in its infancy digging produces items to date it, pottery, tools, weapons, waste pits/heaps... all Mesoamerican sites to date FAIL to produce one shard of BOM item claims. That is an issue itself

[@getstraight234]

Exactly

[@thehastyterrainmaker9485]

@@getstraight234 the biggest problem the LDS Church has is that Smith clearly stated several times that he had found Lamanite and Nephite burial sites, bones and went as far as stating one mound site was the Land of Zelph. Young made many such claims as well, and why the Heartland Model proponents believe church historians highjacked church history and manipulated it

[@MrArtist7777]

That's because after hundreds of digs and 70+ years of archaeological research, we still know that the Maya and Inca had NOTHING to do with the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon lands are in the Great Lakes region and along the Mississippi River, U.S. where thousands of steel swords, steel arrow heads, tens of thousands of earthen mounds with stones inscribed with ancient Hebrew writings, have been found, just like Joseph Smith said. The whole Mesoamerica theory is sad, to the extreme, as the Maya clearly came from Cambodia/Thailand and brought their same architecture, gods, customs and practices.

[@thehastyterrainmaker9485]

@@MrArtist7777 i will “agree” on one point and strongly disagree on the second. Starting with agreeing... The Heartland Model imo IS the correct LDS teaching, Smith, Young and other leaders CLEARLY state locations and finding Nephite bones in “the Land of Zelif” BUT my first disagreement with your statement is that Smith DID later state The BOM location was in Mesoamerica, switching his mind and causing all this bull crap today. Second disagreement is with the Thai/Maya connection. I have heard this argument and know of Coe’s stance BUT there been have several South American civilizations that predate the Maya and whom built temples like the Maya. There is stronger evidence that that is where they Maya learned their techniques. Coe’s argument is no better than those Ancient Alien believers who claim that aliens taught all temple building cultures

[@grayman7208]

wrong. forts are being unburied as we speak in the heartland area.

[@dougwylde]

NY, Hill Cumorah- wasn’t there a battle on the grounds? Why haven’t they found one shred of evidence?

[@alanabills5370]

Because there is none.

[@brettmajeske3525]

There is actually a Saints Unscripted video on this topic.

[@alanabills5370]

@@brettmajeske3525 I've seen the video. Gonna have to disagree with it. There were many prophets and apostles who confirmed the Hill Cumorah was the site of the last major battle. That was the consensus when I was growing up anyway. Its really frustrating to see these major points in church history being so easily shifted around if it doesn't fit a specific narrative.

[@brettmajeske3525]

@@alanabills5370 I agree it was the consensus when I was growing up. I also argued with my seminary teacher that the Book of Mormon never says that it is. Like David pointed out, it specifically states the plates of Mormon are the one thing not burred at Cumorah. She replied like you just did that other Prophets and Apostles claimed they were the same. But none of the quotes I could find back in the 80s indicate such was the result of Revelation. Now with the internet and the Joseph Smith Paper project it is even easier to look up past quotes on a topic. Every single one used statements like, "It is generally understood that..." or simular language. It was a past tradition, never claimed as Revelation. Tradition is not Doctrine, is is not Scripture. It is no different from personal speculation. It might be true, maybe. But it is not a Truth Claim of the Restored Gospel, and never has been. I am frankly tired of members placing tradition over what is stated in Scripture. It is lazy, ignorant, and leads to misunderstandings. It is the primary goal of the Come Follow Me curriculum to get members reading and studying the actual Scriptures. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and all of the Prophets up until Russel Nelson have encouraged and counseled the membership to read the Book of Mormon and other Standard Works. To actually pay attention.

[@alanabills5370]

@@brettmajeske3525 here's what I have a hard time with--we were taught the words from a prophets mouth are words from God, correct? The same as scripture? One the prophet speaks, the debate is over? Except, it seems, when physical proof or evidence is needed. Then there are caveats with the words of the prophets and apostles. For example, we can quote Presidency/Counselor President Marion Romney on matters of faith, but not when when he stated, “In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the “hill Cumorah.” On July twenty-fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity some twenty-five centuries ago-events which brought to an end the great Jaredite nation . . . . This second civilization to which I refer, the Nephites , flourished in America between 600 B.C. and A.D. 400. Their civilization came to an end for the same reason, at the same place, and in the same manner as did the Jaredites.” [15] General Conference 1975 If Romney is speaking as a member of the presidency over the podium, giving instruction and edification to members, don't you think that carries weight? Or should we listen to church leaders at all if they're not the prophet? Who is and which positions are credible? Honestly, I'm going to go with Occam's Razor on this one. Its the only scenario which makes sense.

[@jothearmyman8722]

This really strengthened my testimony thank very much

[@shireecox122]

The biggest difference I see with the Meso model people and the Heartlander people is, that the Meso people totally refuse to believe that the offspring of Lehi could have ever been in the heartland of the USA. That’s just ridiculous to me. I know I am no scholar, but logic says to me, that both models are at least partially true. Why not? The BOM talks about the north and the south lands. The Nephites and Lamanites split up and went their own ways. Who knows how far each went over the space of 2000 years. And I believe there is plenty of evidences of the Nephites culture in the Heartland theory. And there’s probably plenty of Lamanites evidence as well, if we only knew what exactly to look for. I really dislike the notion that there just isn’t any evidence, so just take it all on faith. Faith without works is dead, so are lots of things. I truly believe the evidence is out there. So open up your minds, get over this model or that theory, and get out there and look.

[@jameycreel9330]

And you quote a BYU archeologists? What about others who are not LDS?

[@bcfamilyvideos]

If a non-lds archeologist believed the BOM was historical, that archeologist would have been the first person they quoted.

[@Noxlion28]

If they did that, they’d admit the BoM is a fraud. Because it is. There is not a single non-Mormon archaeologist or geneticist that agrees with any claims made for the BoM.

[@MrTikalvideo]

When the Spaniards arrived at Northen Guatemala Peten at the lake ITZA is a city Island capital today. The Spaniards recorded that, there was a large stone with HEBREWS CHARACTERS. Also at northern Argentina is a tribe called COMESHINGONES, the Spaniards described that they were White blue eyes and large beard. Totally different of the rest of natives in this continent. There is a study in BOLIVIA, called: COMPARISON OF HEBREW WITH QUECHUA AND AYMARA the languages of the natives there.

[@ts-900]

My theory: next door to Naria, west of Never Never Land.

[@takz0743]

Brigham Young told the saints in St. George, UT that the Gadianton Robbers lived right there in the surrounding hills, yet you rarely hear about that. Shouldn't we be digging around there? I would imagine that robbers wouldn't be too neat and clean, so there's got to be stuff they left behind... New York or Central America would have been a long commute, so I really think we should concentrate our efforts there, around St. George. = )

[@thegoblin957]

3.26 so your asserting they had a identical material? That's a massive rescue device

[@karendinkel9040]

“Zero!!!” Holes reference had me rolling

[@SaintsUnscripted]

😂🤣

[@brocprince5]

Check out Wayne may heartland videos

[@bobbilderson8556]

Again. There's the no evidence thing.

[@grasonicus]

The Exodus is one event in the Bible. Many events and people have been archeologically confirmed. There's not one clear confirmation of any of the places, peoples, or events in the Book of Mormon. That's a big difference.

[@cliffwiley5518]

There is no evidence of any exodus of Hebrews from the land we call Egypt.

[@grasonicus]

@@cliffwiley5518 As said, that's just one event. Many other events. places, persons, and peoples from the Bible have been verified. Also, a group of moving people doesn't build cities en-route. Therefore not much to find. Back to about 1000BC much in the Bible has been verified. Time erodes and ultimately destroys.

[@roccodeluca5590]

Watch Wayne May

[@GilObregon-hj6zh]

A video I just watched claimed that (and showed examples of) some Hebraic letters/symbols, which were in common with other ancient "Middle Eastern" symbology, were incorporated into some of the Mayan language glyphs that have been deciphered.

[@lesblase3667]

STOP THE CAP. Quit LYING through your teeth. Give it up

[@GilObregon-hj6zh]

​@@lesblase3667 A: "STOP THE CAP"?! Are you even literate? B: Do you need me to look up that video here on KZbin for you, so that you can watch it for yourself? Answer please.

[@GilObregon-hj6zh]

@@lesblase3667 I am STILL waiting for your response, Mr. STOP THE CAP!

[@giovannifarinacci5946]

Thank you for putting this video. I have a testimony of the Book and have a personal position about where its events occurred. No doubt there is more to be discovered. Having an open mind is definitely needed regardless of one's current views. There may yet come forth further discoveries that suggest its authenticity. A few suggestive things may not seem much, but the fact that so many details from the book have been attested should say something.

[@blusheep2]

What details from the book have been attested to?

[@timb787]

​@blusheep2 you're not getting an answer. The book of mormon is an obvious fake and this person knows it

[@danubs8385]

@@blusheep2For example, the burning of the bosom has been attested to, in the personal testimony of many Latter Day Saints

[@blusheep2]

@@danubs8385 There are three sources of inspiration. God/Holy Spirit, Ourselves and the Enemy. How is the burning in the bosom attesting to anything that we can sink our teeth into? Many people will claim similar experiences with the Holy Spirit who are not Mormons. How does someone that has no experience hearing God's voice know that the feelings they have in their bosom is from God other then by someone else telling them that it is and that is what they should feel? To be clear, I would hope that one feels at peace with their belief system. I expect that the Holy Spirit does in fact witness to believers, but Biblically speaking, this is just one avenue that we take to confirm that we are in the truth and I believe that is because the heart can be so deceptive.

[@danubs8385]

@@blusheep2 Once you feel it you know it can only come from the Holy Spirit. Try to read the Book of Mormon with a honest mind, and ask our Lord if it is true. “But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.” If you do this, you will understand how we can know our faith to be true.

[@Joe140-4ever]

Wayne May has a few videos on KZbin that provide evidence of Book of Mormon archeology

[@kennance115]

Archaeologists always seem to be looking for horse bones that date back to the era of the book of mormon. They have never found equine bones that can be dated to that time. What's funny is this: If there were horses in America then, there would have been horses in America after the book of mormon days. Horses would have been utilized by other tribes. In other words horses, donkeys , sheep and goats would have been here in America before the Colombian exchange. The absence of equine entirely until the 16th century is another thing that might indicate the Book of mormon is fiction. Tell me what happened to the horses!

[@brettmajeske3525]

You do understand how extinction works, right? We have found equine bones that pre date columbus, that is not the issue. They are just either too early or too late. Still the estimated extinction dates has changed by several hundred thousand years, getting closer to Book of Mormon period times.

[@kennance115]

@@brettmajeske3525 What am saying is you don't need an archaeologist or any bones what so ever to evaluate the book of mormon. Horses, goats, and pigs would have been in abundant supply in the Americas before the 15th when the Spainish came because they would have been introduced in the 7th century AD. by the first Mormons. Do you get it? This changes the paradom of the intire discussion. Do you freaking get it!!!!!

[@brettmajeske3525]

@@kennance115 No I do not. First, there were back then and still are today goats native to North and Central America, so I do not know why you are including them in your list. Second, there are no mention of pigs during Nephite times, and very few mention of horses, all of which occur before 33 AD. The text does not describe them as being abundant as you claim. Pig like animals did exist around 2000 bc, the time period in which they were mentioned. Lastly, the Book of Mormon does not claim any of the three were brought to America by the early Lehites. You are setting up a strawman by exaggerating expectations found in the text.

[@MrArtist7777]

Horses were only mentioned about 3 times in the Book of Mormon, and they were mentioned ~60 B.C.E. - 0 C.E. So it's obvious there weren't many of them and there have been horse bones dating to ancient, pre-Columbian times, found in America, none found in Central or South America as they have nothing to do with the Book of Mormon. And it seems obvious that the horses died out or were all killed for food, which is most-likely. Ancient horse bones have also been found in Mongolia even though no horses were found there in recent times.

[@TedBruckner]

​@@MrArtist7777 All should real the article : Horses in Pre-Columbian America by Brian Dunning Horses went extinct in North America at the end of the last ice age, but oddly some are now saying they didn't.

[@jsmith591991]

Please show photos of mesoamerican Nephite temples with ramps. I only see stairs. Must be in the remaining 99%.

[@giovannifarinacci5946]

Time may tell.

[@mrselizavl5250]

Many temples found with ramps (not made from stone though) in the Heartland model. Look up Wayne May, Rod Meldrum and Jonathan Nevilles work

[@For-Goodness-Sake]

I really appreciate the honesty in this video. No evidence for the BoM, and no evidence for the Exodus either. So if you choose to embrace these stories, and that works for you, I'm happy for you. In the meantime, those of us who choose to follow the evidence will be over here waiting with open minds and not with believing hearts.

[@philandrews2860]

If you paid attention to all of the video, you would see that he mentions that there is evidence for plausibility, not absolute evidence, for the Book of Mormon events. Saying that there is 'no evidence' is incorrect. Saying 'no absolute evidence' would be more accurate, meaning that there is no absolute evidence that would negate the need for any kind of faith. The same is true for the miraculous events recounted in the Bible, such as Jesus Christ's resurrection, etc. Believers can have evidence for plausibility of these kinds of events, but having absolute proof would negate the need for faith. Having absolute proof of God's existence and of all the miraculous events recounted in scripture is not how God has designed our path to knowledge and spiritual growth, for good reason. Faith is required for these kinds of things.

[@For-Goodness-Sake]

@@philandrews2860 I prefer the phrase 'no convincing evidence'. But the more important point to respond to is this idea that faith is somehow beneficial to the process. It's just not the case. God could easily give indisputable evidence while preserving everyone's freedom to choose and their opportunities for growth. Information doesn't hinder growth. Ignorance and confusion do.

[@philandrews2860]

@@For-Goodness-Sake - I would agree that the phrase 'no convincing evidence' is accurate also, since it's not evidence that is going to convince everyone, regardless of their foregone assumptions. The concept of faith is a difficult one for those who don't understand it, and/or haven't experienced it consistently in a life-changing way. For those like myself, who have, I see it as a crucial component of trying to fine tune my daily life goals and perceptions in a way to stay in tune with life's true purposes and the eternal nature of our soul - to keep a good perspective on life and all that happens around us during this brief mortal existence.

[@For-Goodness-Sake]

@philandrews2860 I experienced life-changing faith for the first 40+ years of my life. Then I decided to try living just by what I know, rather than by faith. And it's been the greatest thing I've ever done. I'm glad to hear that your faith is working for you. I wish you all the best.

[@alexwilliamns]

Soooo… The best argument in here is “We haven’t found Moses and the Israelites crossing the desert.”? Most consider Moses to be a legendary figure - similar to Odysseus. Meaning he maybe existed in some way, but probably not in this way. A significant portion of my Mormon friends are taking the BoM to be a story rather than history. More like a parable than anything else. Hopefully the church catches up.

[@hollayevladimiroff131]

It is more like a fable!!

[@bcfamilyvideos]

This video is presented as if using a scientific/factual approach. But its clearly hoping the viewer will assume the BOM is true and wait until the evidence for it is discovered at some later time. Science typically lets the evidence lead to the conclusion, not the other way around. So this isn't so much a scientific/factual argument as an apologetic argument in favor of a particular religious view. Probably meant for believers who struggle to reconcile faith with science.

[@r.t.hannah9575]

To be fair, he did say that “people of faith need to be comfortable with it.” By definition, it can be extrapolated that faith is belief absent any evidence. So the statement holds in context I suppose. But yeah, overall I agree with ya! Seems like this was made as an apologetic argument for those who just want to be convinced.

[@MrArtist7777]

No evidence has been found to prove the Bible, or any of its characters or events, to be true. So likewise, people can wait to see if the Bible will ever be 100% proven or just take it on faith and believe it as it is. The Book of Mormon is true, many people saw the records that it was translated from with their own eyes and hands, have seen AMPLE evidence of ancient Hebrew on stones found in Mound Builder's mounds throughout the lower Great Lakes region, NOT in Mesoamerica, as the Book of Mormon has nothing to do with the Maya and their lands, but it did happen in the Great Lakes region, U.S.

[@bcfamilyvideos]

@@MrArtist7777 Yes, the Bible contains stories and legends that almost certainly did not happen. Historic accuracy was not a concern in the ancient world, conveying the message of a true principal was the point. So true, but not historical. However, it is false to say none of the events or characters in the Bible can be corroborated with independent attestation (evidence). We have many of the ancient manuscripts, we can read the language, we know who the Isrealite people were and where they lived. Mormon apologetics is all over the place, no ancient manuscripts, (excluding the Book of Breathing?), no language, no evidence of the people or where they lived. The Book of Mormon is not like the Bible at all historically. That's a false comparison completely. But feel free to believe what you like, the book of mormon can be inspiring and not historical the same time.

[@sariew8853]

Faith is not scientific

[@bcfamilyvideos]

@@sariew8853 Yes, exactly.

[@scottbrandon6244]

The locations really don't matter. If there was one location there would be artifacts. For example, Roman armies marched through the UK and left artifacts behind. The kind of numbers from the Book of Mormon should mean a lot of artifacts (coins, pieces of military uniform, metal objects, etc. There is none of that found. Even if you reject the heartland model, there should be Mesoamerican artifacts linked to the BM. That geography would be found in Central America (Mayan) and Northwest South America (Incan and other groups) archaeology. That also has not been found. Then there are historical facts like the absence of horses and steel that must be explained.

[@TedBruckner]

Also, a native authority on archeology in central america, says there are horses then, no barley, or metal coins.

[@brettmajeske3525]

The Book of Mormon actually never mentions coinage, or any specific metal items other than rare weapons. Steel has been found in South America, it is rare, but not unknown.

[@scottbrandon6244]

@@brettmajeske3525 Coins still had to be used for payment at some point whether mentioned or not. Steel was not invented yet and was not found in America during BM time periods. Still no BM artifacts whether you follow a meso american or heartland model. The LDS church officially follows a heartland model, although Neal Maxwell Institutes scholars at BYU follow a meso american model.

[@brettmajeske3525]

@@scottbrandon6244 I think you have some facts wrong. The LDS Church officially follows no model. Individual Prophets and Apostles have had their own personal pet theories, but they are not all in agreement, which would be a requirement for an official stance. There are iron mines in the UP of Michigan that were being used around the right time, and meteorite steel has been found in South American that is close enough that it is reasonable to have existed earlier. As for coins, if not mentioned in the text there is no reason to assume its existence.

[@malchir4036]

@@brettmajeske3525 Pre-Columbian steel has not been found in South America. They don't have the advanced metallurgy to deal with it, which is what you should also find. What you're talking about is meteoric iron, the most basic iron there is. You could argue it's a steel alloy but then so is 'meteoric steel' artifacts used in prehistoric times everywhere in the world.

[@markkrantz1005]

Wanted to tell you about a very interesting documentary I watched about Moses and the exodus. There is evidence that is very strong for the exodus, the problem is the timing. Everyone is looking in the Rames era which isn't where the evidence is from. If you look earlier there is very strong evidence for everything as presented in the Biblical story. Then there is real problem with calendars from Egypt which when taken into account we find how well the stories line up with archeology.

[@deboralittle5974]

Yes! “Patterns of Evidence”. It’s excellent.

[@kellybrandon1179]

I dont hear anything about the keystone anymore

[@moistpoptart]

Heartland model matches up much better with the nephite timeline than mesoamerica. Not saying mesoamerica couldnt end up being correct its just there is absolutely more evidence at this point for the heartland than mesoamerica

[@amandadangerfieldpiano]

I'm a Heartlander.

[@mrselizavl5250]

Me too. I heard these guys are funded by Scripture Central which are super anti-heartland so we probably won't hear about it on this channel

[@curtiscarwile498]

So, Thomas Ferguson?

[@wtxohnthao2612]

The evidence for the Israelites being slaves in Egypt has been found. Many historians can't accept it because it will prove the God of Israel exist. That's why they refuse to accept the fact that Ramesses II(The Great) was not the ruler when Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt in the book of Exodus. Because they have pure evidence of a stone tablet for Ramesses II great sucess which has the people he had conquered. And one of those nations states Israel, Sons from the House of David. So that would mean King David lived before Ramesses II and he had conquered the land of Israel. So yes, they have evidence. But no one is willing to move the timeline to be corrected.

[@Andromedon777]

David is wayyyy after Exodus though...

[@MrArtist7777]

I've studied archaeological evidence of the Middle East and Egypt for many years and have never seen anything that "proves" ancient Israelites were enslaved by any Ramesses or Egypt. The Merneptah Stele was written by or at the time of the Egyptian king/pharaoh Merneptah which says: "Israel is laid waste and his seed is not; but does not" and doesn't define if Israel was a person or a group. We assume it was a family group as Israel is a plural name and there is clear archaeological evidence of ancient Canaanites living in the Goshen region of Northern Egypt during this same time. Not 2 million as purported in Exodus, but maybe 10-20,000.

[@ronbrewer4632]

Man thanks thanks thanks you really do a great job .

[@SaintsUnscripted]

You are very welcome

[@user-gs1bo9oh9u]

Brother the lds church is based on lies please come to Jesus he will set you free

[@1Andelina1]

Pretty sure a chariot wheel or wheels were found, they were gold plated, who else but Pharaoh would have this on his chariot?

[@benjamindavis2037]

I had a coworker make fun of there being light and dark skinned people in the Book of Mormon, acting like that invalidated the Book of Mormon. I brought an older copy with a mural that was discovered in the Americas showing light and dark skinned people in the same picture. I naively hoped that he would want to learn more since I resolved his concern. He just never wanted to talk about it again. I'm surprised those pics weren't discussed in this video...

[@lorihaun9956]

There was also Zoram. Was Zoram a dark skinned slave or light?

[@philandrews2860]

Those murals seem to be depicting the dark red and black body paint that the ancient Maya used for both warfare and for ceremonial purposes. There is an excellent article on the 'Book of Mormon Central' website, by Gerrit M. Steenblik, called "Demythicizing the Lamanites' 'skin of blackness'". He points out how the 'curse' described in the Book of Mormon may have been a self-imposed one that the Lamanites put upon themselves with the red and black body paint. It is well worth the read. You can find it by searching for that title on the Book of Mormon Central website or else from a google search.

[@whos.vanzzz]

I'm very interested in finding that image. Do you know where I can find it?? Also, I really appreciate your comment!

[@benjamindavis2037]

@whos.vanzzz i was trying to find a website with the pictures I am referring to that you could easily look at, and wasn't super successful. It is the paperback copies of the Book of Mormon with the angel Moroni statue on the cover (light blue sky in the background). Searching for the books, it looks like they were in print from 1961 to 1976 at least. One site had two copies for $10. Might be able to find them in a local used book store. Or just go to the local building and ask someone that looks like they are over 50 if they have a copy lying around they would give you.

[@whos.vanzzz]

@@benjamindavis2037 thank you very much, I appreciate it 😊

[@yuiopoli9601]

Napoleon, NASA, Ron Wyatt, et al can all be cited add evidence of the Red Sea crossing.

[@giovannifarinacci5946]

I believe we must study thoughtfully the findings that suggest the Book of Mormon's details were true. If we do so with a bias in mind even if the finds do suggest historicity, we won't acknowledge them because in our hearts we don't want it to be. It is not a matter of there not being evidence but an issue with the beholder. I suggest that even in other fields of history or science many "truths" that have been affirmed are still in reality very good possibilities. We weren't present when the past happened therefore it's still a matter of faith for many things. Also there surely will be more things to be discovered that we don't presently know. Thus, careful consideration should be given before anyone rejects anything.

[@blusheep2]

What studies suggest the BoM is true?

[@giovannifarinacci5946]

@@blusheep2 I really want you to see this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/d16oo2qsltOqbKM&feature=share It summarizes a number of finds that suggest the Book of Mormon is true. It is lengthy but easy to understand.

[@turnipsociety706]

Thomas Stuart Ferguson

[@theincrediblerodofiron304]

The Book of Mormon can only have taken place in one geographical location and one geographical location only and that area has contain at least all of the 5 following factors: 1. Settlements that are interconnected by several miles of causeways that the inhabitants traversed. 2. Remains of multiple large platforms and and massive ruins 3. Canals and reservoirs used for water collection for large scale agriculture 4. A Civilation that was integrated politically and economically 5. Heavily fortified sites that include high walls, moats, and watchtowers that serve as evidence for large-scale and systematic conflict/warfare And add that it has to be the area with the most of each of the 5 above details and the area least accesable and explored. The answer, thanks to modern LiDAR, is Meso-America. go ahead , google it. "LiDAR Meso-America and warfare and ruins

[@cah95046]

DNA and Hopewell timelines support the heartland model

[@goobermcgilicuty3754]

Your best argument is, we dont know. Very convincing.

[@billmoore3872]

Where did Joseph Smith say it was?

[@josephsmith2371]

in upstate New York. Near my house

[@juneveh835]

Joseph Smith first said that the Bof M took place in North America. He sent missionaries to Indian tribes with copies of the B of M, claiming that it was about their ancestors. But then John Lloyd Stephens published a book about 1841 about his discovery of Mayan ruins in Central America. He wrote a glowing review of the book in the Times & Seasons. He then declared that this was the site ;where the B of M took place. I assume he believed this until the end of his life a few years later.

[@MinkJu]

How can you use a quote like, "Truth is, we don't know squat," and then come around and say that you actually have all of the answers for what happened in ancient Mesoamerica? "We don't know squat," except that one dude up in New York found some golden tablets that have the entire story. Seems legit

[@nateypecks]

"We're going to completely ignore all the affirmative evidence in North America and go with the 'never mind that there's no affirmative evidence in Meso America, we're sticking with it.'"

[@yuiopoli9601]

What affirmative evidence in North America?

[@majesticliberatoroftheoppr3971]

@@yuiopoli9601 watch Wayne May’s stuff on the heartland model. Bruce porter, Rod meldrum

[@yuiopoli9601]

@@majesticliberatoroftheoppr3971 Thank you, I will.

[@mrselizavl5250]

seriously. The old farts over at BYU are so stuck in their ways and will never give an honest ear to hearing out the heartland theory cuz it would prove their whole life's work wrong. You have to discount Joseph Smith and Oliver cowdrey completely to go with mesoamerica. And for the times and seasons article that says it was in mesoamerica, Joseph Smith wasn't in town to proof read that opinion piece before it was published !

[@nateypecks]

@@robertstanley3832 your point would be better made if THIS video didn't do exactly what you're advocating against in your reply to me. It's exactly the criticism that Hugh Nibley raised many years ago... The issue is that this channel purports to advocate FOR the historicity of the BOM, and yet ignores the greatest repository of archeological evidence in the 's favor, which just so happens to reside where the book was found and translated. Almost as though God intended it to happen that way.

[@espiodronalfadron-x4173]

La piedra de los Lunas, David investiga eso

[@tylerrichards6456]

Wherever you want to place the Book of Mormon geographically, we know that the hill Camorra is in New York. The same hill where Joseph found his magic plates. Why haven’t we found any artifacts from the massive battle of annihilation that was fought there??

[@mrselizavl5250]

Check out Wayne May and Rod Meldrum's work on the heartland theory. There have been lots of artifacts found.

[@littlebigband2010]

For many decades now some BYU scholars have erroneously held that the Hill Cumorah is in Mexico. So there is a created conflict in this assertion.

[@lorihaun9956]

Maybe the other gold plates are safe in the granite caves of Utah. 😊

[@littlebigband2010]

@@lorihaun9956 or more accurately, “in a hill not far away from Cumorah.” David Whitmer is quoted as saying this to a reporter named Wilhelm Paulson from the the “Deseret Evening News.” In 16, August 1878

[@lorihaun9956]

Bones are there. They disintegrate when exposed to air. Many farmers at that time reported of having an over abundance of calcium in the ground when tilling.

[@revertrevertz5438]

So this video’s summary: There’s no proof this happened, but there can be, so it must be true. Also to possibly place the story on two continents is crazy. It’s as if someone claimed The Exodus could have happened in any part of Africa, Europe or Asia...

[@brettmajeske3525]

Not quite the claim.

[@revertrevertz5438]

@@brettmajeske3525 so what’s the claim?

[@brettmajeske3525]

@@revertrevertz5438 This video is a refutation not an assertion. It does not offer proof why the Book of Mormon must be true, just refuting a common claim of disproof. Have you ever participate in High School debate?

[@revertrevertz5438]

@@brettmajeske3525 so exactly how did they disprove it?

[@brettmajeske3525]

@@revertrevertz5438 They were disputing the claim of the level of evidence that could reasonably be expected, did you not watch the video?

[@stevenborg9806]

I lean to the Heartland information!!!

[@wquon2007]

heartland is the way. check out wayne may and ron meldrum

[@waikikibeach08]

You are an excellent interviewer. thanks

[@GondolaVoyager]

"Why hasn't there been any discoveries of BOH history?" "It's out there! They just haven't found it yet." Massive cope. With most of Christianity, you have to rely on faith. With Mormonism, you have to rely on faith and get rid of your common sense receptors.

[@Fanofjasonm]

Im somewhat confused. Is he saying that because we don’t evidence of the exodus (one part of the Bible, compared to the rest of the Bible were there is overwhelmingly a large amount of historical evidence) then we should apply that to the entirety of the Book of Mormon? The Book of Mormon is the foundation of the religion, and we can’t prove any of it… We can’t compare the exodus to the entire BoM. I feel like they say cleverly that there is no archaeological evidence but its still true with faith. That’s a hard and manipulative way of living… Its hard for me asleep, isn’t the BoM the most truest book and you can get closer to God than any other book? Shouldn’t there be proof, and just some, but at least a little? Also, which once? The BoM that was changed regarding race? (Would love an open dialogue)

[@debbiemelander289]

I’m a Heartlander for many reasons, but the biggest one is that Joseph Smith was one, by revelation. Oh, and the Book of Mormon clearly states it too. Nephi 13 is all about the colonization of North America, forefathers, and the war of independence. Nephi 22 talks about the Gentiles, raising a mighty nation on this land, not that land, this land. Is there a mighty nation in Mesoamerica, with the freedoms and liberties and Gentile populous that were described to Nephi? Besides, if Nephi lived in Mesoamerica, why would the Lord concern Nephi with a revelation of things that would take place in a land he and his descendants didn’t live in? I was raised on the Mesoamerican theory, but even as a young child, it didn’t make sense to me. Mesoamerica simply doesn’t have the geography described in the BOM or the political things that would happen in the land that the Lamanites lived in. Turns out the theory mostly came about when Chichen Itza was discovered, and the leaders of the church got excited about it. Joseph Smith was in jail at the time, and couldn’t refute their report in the Times and Season newspaper. And don’t even get me started on the illogical premise of two Hill Cumorahs. The book of Mormon took place in the Great Lakes area of the promised land that we know as a United States of America. A land of freedom, the land where the new Jerusalem has been revealed to be built, and where the gospel was restored. How could it be anywhere else?

[@klonkillee5615]

I figured it out. The word Mormon is a mistranslation of the ancient Nephite word Marsmen. It took place on Mars!

[@SaintsUnscripted]

🛸👽

[@dharakis]

within the mohawk new york library there was a book that i saw and read abit that it was an old man here that wrote children story books that wrote it.. ΑΩ

[@MeToo-py1tq]

You are right Mormon apologetics "Don't Know Squat"

[@saounyang]

Alma Lehi and Nephi are used in American Indian tribes and South America people

[@markkrantz1005]

The problem I have with the Mesoamerican model is the only people who think it might have any validity are those from BYU. None of the other scientists give that idea any credence. When you look up North you find Hebrew artifacts, language, stories from the natives and much of the work being done is by people with NO ties to the church. They have found metals which are totally lacking in Mesoamerica. The biggest problem up North is that the scientific model was blocked by early Smithsonian leaders who said anything beyond beads and baskets are fraudulent. The North Amercian model overcomes many of the problems that are so difficult to find in Central America. Having said that, I do believe Christ appeared to those people--that doesn't make them Nephites. He also appeared in serval places around the world--Russia, Japan, Tibet to name just a few of those we know about.

[@PoppaWoodiE]

There's plenty of archeological proof. It was named after the discoverer. Hopewell

[@mrselizavl5250]

Preach! Hopewell = nephites and Adena = jaredites

[@thesupremechickenhed]

I LOVE he used the Exodus...newsflash dude, it DIDN'T happen

[@trewic8678]

The Bible is true, the Book of Mormon is utterly false

[@cmortenson3647]

exactly. its all man made fables. what about the talking snake in the garden of eden? of course you're not gonna find the snake. its a frkn story. this guy's obvious rationalization is a joke.

[@Elmorr562]

Check out Absolute History’s channel for evidence found about Moses and the Exodus.

[@dougknighton5348]

Joseph Smith believed the heartland.

[@ryanpalmquist4823]

I'm sorry... But hands down, the Heartland Theory is the only theory. I would lose my faith also after watching this tap dance... Y'ALL GO CHECK THE THE HEARTLAND THEORY... And Wayne May. Love you Wayne!

[@mrselizavl5250]

Preach! I feel so bad for everyone watching this

[@egratudo1974]

Joseph Smith was a Heartlander..........turns out he knew a thing or two on the subject

[@UtahKent]

Thanks. Your repost is just as valuable as the post. I think all the anachronisms and "blanks" are an opportunity for us to focus our faith on the message and implications of the Book of Mormon. The "issues" also give the "gnat-strainers" things to waste their energy on.

[@justinlabar7352]

Joseph Smith's own comments lend credibility to the very model you chose to ignore... the Heartland.

[@tyhatfield7156]

When I was on my mission in Arizona I baptized a Professor at Masa community college What we did is we tracked it around? She read the book of Mormon in one day and was baptized. She became someone that worked in the temple and right then she knew when she had been going through some of the different temples that they use archaeology and things like that they were set up the same way that the temple is , and she testified and told me that for sure!

[@manilymergal5194]

I am a member of LDS, as joseph smith say no one can replace The Holy Bible indeed, but the book of mormon is another testament of God , it's up to us whether we believe or not, but the fact that the holy Bible and Book of mormon is helping for us to exercise our faith teach us to become a better person teaching a goodness of life ,and to see the art of God, but the most fact that you had to do is asked why don't we asked God and prayed for the answer, when the missionaries teach me about the book of mormon i never felt something wrong about that, they help me how the holy ghost work in your life if you are truly invite it and accept it into your heart you will never failed about salvation and endured to the end ,, you can win the everlasting life , when the missionaries😊 said to me why don't you asked God if our teaching is true ?" He can only give an answer" that is the fact that i made myself to believe. because there so many good things changed in my life. I improve myself a lot Beacause the Gospel of God help me to understanding everything, as for me The Holy Bible and the book of mormon is true because this is the word of God . It's only teaching for kindness , spread the Goodness and the light of God, this is for my opinion, i do respect the comments of others, but i want to spread the word in my heart. Only for goodness😊

[@at0knight188]

The bible is contradictory to the Book of Mormon, they can’t both be true if you accept both as the word of God and accept the ending of the book of revelation. Besides that, look at the man of Joseph smith, he was not after Gods heart, his goal was to deceive and have sex with as many woman as he could, he lived a life of sin whereas Jesus is the son of God, fully God and fully Man apart of the trinity, equal to the father, he lived a sinless life and defeated sin and death, only by faith in him can you be saved. Jesus was perfect and Joseph smith was horrible and is a false prophet, you can tell someone is a false prophet by their fruit and their teachings, something Jesus told his disciples. And he’s right, Joseph smith didn’t have good fruit and his teachings are from the devil, he teaches lies.

[@gemguy6812]

I look at the man, Joseph Smith in particular who wrote the BoM. He bought Egyptian papyri from an antiquities dealer and translated- he came up with the Book of Abraham. The Rosetta Stone was discovered and Egyptologists concluded that the papyri JS translated was simply Egyptian funeral procedures. The lack of physical evidence for JS revelations doesn’t disprove Mormonism but the discoveries disproving Mormonism is plentiful.

[@mobregonjr]

It’s simple to differentiate Mayan from Book of Mormon people sites. The Mayan people had no metal tools or weapons. According to the Book of Mormon, ancient Mormon people had swords, shields and metal armor. They had chariots. So when archeologists find metal buried in Mesoamérica it will at least begin to give some sort of credibility to the Book of Mormon. None have been found yet.

[@dasonmouser1542]

They have. you heard of the Hopewell? The adena? Do you research Before you make a video like this

[@user-og2wt3le4j]

At the Hill Cumorah, 230,000 Nephites were killed. Where are the skeletal remains?

[@RyanMercer]

Well, acids in many fertile soils take about 20 years to completely dissolve the skeleton of mid- to large-size mammals, such as humans, leaving no trace of the organism.

[@skyleen]

All you questioners need to check out a book... 1491 New Revelations of the Americas before Columbus by Charles Mann. The things that have been learned, since 1990, about life in the "americas" is astounding.

[@hjohnson966]

There has been evidence found, it's just difficult to tie it to the book of Mormon due to the uncertainty of where it took place. There's tons of debunked anachronisms, but they only work as evidence if we can verify that the specific example found is the one in the BoM.