The most important dietary hypothesis you never heard of w/ Simpson & Raubenheimer | Hava Podcast #4

We are thrilled to have had the opportunity to sit down with these two great minds and talk about protein, processed foods, the current food environment, modern-day dietary challenges, and health implications. The work by professors Stephen Simpson and David Raubenheimer has been a major inspiration for us. Their work on the Protein Leverage Hypothesis has been instrumental in developing the satiety score, especially the role of protein in it. Enjoy!
Timestamps:
00:00 - Intro
01:01 - How David and Stephen got started
02:45 - From studying bugs to nutrition
05:07 - Developing the Protein Leverage Hypothesis
10:44 - How this could change the world
14:15 - Why protein is critical to reaching satiety
16:17 - Why we need more protein today
18:17 - Reactions from scientists and other findings
23:40 - The protein decoy problem
26:34 - Do we all need to be expert protein calculators?
29:45 - Does Satiety Per Calorie work with our biology?
33:20 - The cost of protein at the cost of health
36:28 - What could happen if you have too much protein?
39:05 - The role of aging and protein tradeoffs
40:57 - How high is too high?
45:39 - What about calcium and sodium?
47:02 - How could our approach be even better?
49:25 - The potential of the satiety approach
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[@marianmurphy5385]

Dr Ted Naiman has written a book..The P E Diet..which explains the need to continue to eat, until you get enough protein..and he says with our modern diets this causes us to overeat. The book unfortunately is very expensive ( as he states himself) and I think you have to order it to be printed..but he gives a lot of information on this topic on social media. I think maybe he refers to the research carried out by these experts in their field.

[@hava]

@marianmurphy5385 The research by professors Simpson and Raubenheimer has been an inspiration for the entire Hava team including Ted. 👍

[@fourcubed47]

The hardcover edition is expensive, but the ebook in PDF format is only $20. Well worth the price. I have both the hardcover and the ebook, and the ebook is at least as good as the hardcover. Best book on nutrition by far I've ever read.

[@marianmurphy5385]

@@fourcubed47thank you, I’ll order the pdf..be great if it was sent to every dietician and medical establishment.

[@fourcubed47]

@@marianmurphy5385 I agree, and you won't regret the purchase!

[@TheKingdomWeigh]

I looked at that book, but couldn’t do the high price

[@penelopemiller1908]

I wonder if the scientists in the food industry already understood this protien leverage and make money with protien decoys so people buy and eat more to make them more money

[@lorrieashe8613]

My food costs have dropped significantly since I've started eating high protein. Pork is $1.89/lb. Beef is 3-15.00_lb Eggs are prefect food and economical. My food costs are less than$10/ day, probably 7$/day. Less than ONE McDonald's meal...lol But you only need a couple lbs of meat per day... no soda... chips...process food...sauces...dressings etc... and that saves aLot alot of money... eat at home high protein and natural fats in the meat is the most satiating way to eat. Burning all we eat. Cut costs on medical to nothing. Eating well SAVES ton of money and good health is cost and LIFE SAVING. I eat (carnivore) and stopped craving carbs, sugar and processed foods completely.

[@johntatman9168]

It would seem if you eat a good protein rich food and eat until you are no longer hungry and then don't eat again until you're hungry that the body would then regulate the protein dependant on it's needs. The body would then naturally regulate your lean body mass and weight without any thought.

[@mthomas1800]

Interviews with these doctors is always thought provoking

[@hava]

@mthomas1800 glad you like it! We've got more coming. 😊

[@kwilliams1958]

A great discussion...so nice to hear actual scientists talking about research and recommendations without all the hyperbole associated with so many "influential podcasters."

[@michaels2219]

Seems like a lot of people here are mainly watching with an eye toward confirming what they already believe.

[@annoyedaussie3942]

I notice any video that mentions protein the carnivore and keto cult members are in force in the comments section.

[@robinbeers6689]

They state that there are negative consequences to eating too much protein as though that is just self evident without any specifics or evidence other than rat data and epidemiology. I'm not buying that. It is really difficult to overeat protein if you are eating whole foods. The only way you could do it is with concentrated powders and such.

[@graphicmaterial5947]

And they couldn't even say how much is too much! Plus no studies have ever been performed on zero carbers. Epi-doodeli-moodeli-mology. All of it.

[@carnivorehippie8071]

The posit (generally) is that because kidney failure patients can't metabolize protein properly that MUST mean that protein damages kidneys. That's where the idea comes from. Complete claptrap!

[@DrAndreasEenfeldt]

The risk of too *little* protein may be much more of an issue in today's world. That's certainly my take. That said it's interesting to explore the other extreme as well. The truth is usually somewhere in between.

[@danielpincus221]

Have you read their book?

[@robinbeers6689]

@@DrAndreasEenfeldt Other than rabbit starvation which is high protein in the absence of adequate fat, I don't know of any evidence that there even is a thing such as "too much protein". Your guests need to back up their assertions.

[@250txc]

Interesting angle on eating ... After watching dozens of hrs of videos out here from scientists and other decades-long career people, I can see \ understand that the body knows what it is doing and what it needs ... I also know NO ONE recommends man-made synthetic, processed foods other than their makers and the FDA ..lol

[@stephanygates6491]

My struggle as I age is managing to eat enough protein. I stopped overeating, lost weight and found myself getting weaker. Now, I hear (from nutrition and geriatric experts) I need 1 gm protein per pound ideal body weight to maintain muscle mass. I decided that means 125, for me (equivalent to 1.25 lb beef). That's more protein than I ever ate per day in my life. I'm relying on whey, pea and rice protein shakes and cramming as much meat and eggs as I can, otherwise. I made it up to 110, yesterday. It's very hard to eat vegetables, much less carbs. I count my blessings that's my health concern, at 65.

[@jim5jim5jim5]

125 gm protein does not equal 1.25 lbs. beef or am I misunderstanding?

[@fai5734]

100g lean beef contains approximately 26g of protein. You can find yogurts that contain 10g protein/100g You do not need to eat 1.25 lbs of beef

[@olgakuchukov6981]

Don’t eat vegetables or carbs, prioritize the protein. I need to eat 100-120. I’m able to get 40-60 per 2 meals a day easy - 1/4 oz of ground beef is 21-25gms of protein, 4 eggs is 20 gms, sardine can 18-22gns. So 4-6 eggs plus 4-8oz ground beef and that’s 50 gms at least and could be pumped up to 80 easily. Pea protein is not bioavailable & top protein researcher Dr Gabrielle Lyon has said so. I go for grass fed beef protein isolate and sometimes egg protein.

[@AnneMB955]

If we eat just meat and meat products then it’s easier to have enough protein. We don’t need to eat carbs or fibre, our bodies make their own glucose.

[@beautifulgirl219]

It's hard to overeat beef steak. When I've had enough, I stop, it doesn't require effort, and I feel satiety. Beef, eggs, a little cheese, a bit of unsweetened nonfat yogurt occasionally, cook with butter, iodized salt (sodium chloride, potassium chloride, calcium silicate, magnesium carbonate, potassium iodide, and unfortunately, dextrose); these are all I need for health and happiness in eating. I also eat shrimp, salmon, and occasionally oysters. I definitely prioritize protein, I average 1 gram per pound ideal body weight, which I am at.

[@dreamingoftacos4388]

I Was just saying to hubby that when we go out for a steak dinner, finish our ribeye, potato and asparagus it would be impossible to immediately eat another. Ice cream, though, being processed is easy to eat after. I eat a protein & fiber balanced diet and my body will be satisfied on less. But the SADiet of processed calories would cause me to gain all the weight I've lost back and then some. Good information.

[@heatherwatson9564]

To dreamingoftacos So true,you can only eat to satiety steak and other meat and you stop when satisfied That would be enough but if someone brings out icecream or a yummy cheesecake suddenly there is stomach room

[@hava]

@beautifulgirl219 you've got a grip on high-satiety foods. 👏 All of the foods you mentioned are great options and rank high on our satiety scale. One exception being cheese, there are a lot of variations and scores. It can be as high as 70 or as low as 32.

[@chuckleezodiac24]

i eat plants & animals. when i've had enough, i stop. it doesn't require effort and i feel satiated. i'm at an ideal weight.

[@beautifulgirl219]

@@hava I mostly eat a sharp cheddar with as few additives as possible, often on top of a burger patty, shrimp, or oysters. More like a seasoning or garnish than a main course. Any idea what ballpark satiety score cheddar cheese is on the app? THANKS for all you do! :)

[@andrewchance9847]

I read The PE Diet and Eat Like the Animals. And I have eaten a high protein diet for more than three years. I’ve lost weight. And I plan to continue to eat high protein. Focusing on protein, eating higher protein, helps with satiety. A little. But it’s not the answer for everything. And beyond a certain point, it doesn’t help much at all. In my experience, this is overhyped. To lose weight, you need many other habits and strategies to reduce energy intake. And the reality is that you have to learn to tolerate hunger. It is a necessary skill. Period. Don’t be fooled by anyone saying otherwise.

[@stephanygates6491]

Let the first thing you reach for when hungry be protein, every time. Use tiny amounts of sweets as reward for fulfilling your real physical needs. You won't overeat.

[@AnneMB955]

Agree with eating protein rather than carbs when peckish.

[@jenniferbowerman2573]

Some of us (old people in our 70s) simply cannot tolerate fibre.

[@robinbeers6689]

Fiber isn't good for anyone. Younger bodies manage to tolerate it better, however. Fiber is completely not needed. Carnivore for 11 years with 5 years keto before that. I felt so much better when I stopped trying to shoehorn some greens and such into the keto plan and went carnivore.

[@Gesundheit888]

But some of us old people, including me, should not be strict carnivore. We need carbs. To rely on glucogenesis causes a cortisol overdose which will age us all the faster. Take some time and listen to Jay Feldman and Mike Fave, they have information we should most likely consider. I believe strict carnivore caused me to have a cortisol overdose.

[@user-sl3tt1zx6f]

cortisol needed from stress of going without sweet sweet carbs :) @@Gesundheit888

[@robinbeers6689]

@@Gesundheit888 Cortisol levels being too high is much more likely to be a stress issue (lack of sleep, emotional upset over job or relationships or money). GNG is not stressful at all. Perfectly normal process.

[@Gesundheit888]

@@robinbeers6689 To undergo GNG requires cortisol.

[@user-sl3tt1zx6f]

You know I thought I was eating plenty of protein with bacon and eggs for breakfast at noon. No, not quite. Another .5 can wild caught salmon needed to help me resist carb cravingsand and boost my grams of protien to 1 gram per pound ideal weight (normal BMI) along with supper, 75 + 75 aprox.

[@AnneMB955]

Yes, eat enough at a sitting to be comfortably full.

[@user-sl3tt1zx6f]

carbs will never let you be comfortable because 0 nutrients, carbs with tons of fiber will make you uncomfortable enough to quit eating even if you haven't had your fill (of nutrients) as I understand things currently. @@AnneMB955

[@Gesundheit888]

Take some time and listen to Jay Feldman and Mike Fave, they have information we should most likely consider. I believe strict carnivore caused me to have a cortisol overdose.

[@AnneMB955]

You sure? This goes against what the Carnivore docs say.

[@1timbarrett]

Unless carnivore influencers address this cortisol question, they will lose some adherents…!😮

[@festivetosho7376]

Listen to Georgi Dinkov. Your intuition is likely correct! He talks about cortisol, and how it causes the body to tear down lean muscle mass to access the amino acids the liver needs to create glucose. High cortisol is associated, it seems, with excessive fat intake.

[@Gesundheit888]

@@AnneMB955 I know and I've relied on their information for a whole year but there is something not quite right with my metabolism. I get sugar let downs even when doing 100% carni.

[@leezap]

@@AnneMB955 You don't need carnivore doctors or anyone to tell you that in nature, 100% carnivore doesn't make sense and it's not real. Even if you live on bison on the plains 200 years ago, there is a season where you can hunt them and if you come across a patch of tubers, you'll eat them too. 100% carnivore is good for certain medical conditions like what Mikhaila Peterson had but it's not necessary for everyone.

[@mtnwmn]

Great interview! Wish you would’ve asked them their thoughts on the people that follow a strictly carnivore diet, especially those that have done it long term and not just as a short term therapeutic diet. Thank you for all you do and all the valuable information you put out there. I’ve been a long time follower of Diet Doctor. ❤👍💯

[@talgara69]

Excellent

[@telesniper2]

This is nothing new, it's been known in keto and carnivore communities for quite some time. Heck, it was known back in the days of Atkins.

[@jim5jim5jim5]

They also advocate for eating carbs or did you miss that part? So, in the dietary environment you are referencing, it is kinda new, right?

[@telesniper2]

@@jim5jim5jim5 Meat is human's natural diet. What are you talking about, "NEW"??? Yeah your so right, Lakota and Cavemen were all feasting on sugar 🙄

[@jim5jim5jim5]

@telesniper2 Still missing the point? Ok, trying this again. They're advocating for recognizing a natural need and hunger for ALL the macronutrients, including carbohydrates, and in the present low carb frenzy, this perspective does seem kinda "new" doesn't it? Hope that helps. 🙂

[@AnneMB955]

Some people need this info over again to help it sink in.

[@basicattentionwoman5787]

I remember seeing something on TV about grasshoppers and what they preferred to eat, I wonder if that was you guys?

[@dry509]

What source of protein do the speakers recommend?

[@dogphlap6749]

It is not true that a high protein high fat with close to zero carbohydrates diet is unsustainable, plenty of people have been doing just that for years. Many of them go by the label 'carnivores'.

[@AnneMB955]

Is this your opinion or do you have proof?

[@dogphlap6749]

@@AnneMB955 This is reality, see Dr Anthone Chaffee, Dr Dom D'Agostino, Dr Ken Berry, Dr Robert Lustig, Dr Shawn Baker etc etc. All those folks have been carnivore for multiple years, are very happy on it and promote it.

[@dinomiles7999]

Dr. Jack Kruse, Dr Ronda Patrick, Dr Ted Archaco, Dr Zack Bush, Dr Joe Despensa, Dr Bruce Lipton. ,

[@1timbarrett]

I am so excited to find your channel, which I do hope btw will not be pronounced by some to sound like ‘Harvard’. 😂

[@AnneMB955]

What about no fibre? No carbs? Surely protein and fat intake would suffice for health, nutrition and satiety?🇦🇺

[@user-sl3tt1zx6f]

Specially after you broke your friendly relation with carbs and by way of SAD become IR.

[@anyajohnson4471]

What is the ratio that you discovered? Percentages of all the macros? Did I miss it? I heard 20% protein - what about fat and carbs?

[@user-sl3tt1zx6f]

Are these the guys that inspired Ted Naiman?

[@martykendall5111]

Yes

[@user-sl3tt1zx6f]

thanks I have poor memory for names I do remember Ted great presentator!@@martykendall5111

[@timonroehrbacher]

I don’t think so. I’m a 80kg, 178cm male and I can easily eat 200-250 grams of whole food protein (from what I know that would be overeating protein). The only requirements for me to achieve that are: 1. The food must taste AMAZING. Quality, preparation, Spices, …. 2. I focus more on taste and pleasure than my body’s satiety signals.

[@lilofee27772]

Did I get it right (fom the carnivore circles) that protein and its fat are the most satient...did the two scientists mention the factor fat?

[@gilliancorkhill5480]

At last some science that validates protein first, then real fat, then carbohydrate (if needed) in the realm of real food for all human beings.

[@dinomiles7999]

Ys right ! Your in great shape you guys are ripped (?). LoL. Eyes mind heart and soul wide open. NO FEAR!

[@SandyBatten1962]

The modern food supply is also lacking in fibre. Not finding any fibre in meat. Not finding much ion refined processed foods either. Not even in protein powders. Gut microbiome requires fibre

[@orjanbern4766]

Regarding calcium, it is possible to say something about what is an adequate intake. Thanks,

[@user-sl3tt1zx6f]

@Hava where do you guys stand? Do you really believe the brain "prefers" glucose for fuel or is stuck in continuous need to have to get glucose out of blood as a first priority, ie maybe brain really does prefer ketones at least once in awhile!

[@AnneMB955]

Our bodies make their own glucose. The brain prefers ketones then glucose.

[@user-sl3tt1zx6f]

Thats what I think too because of the rise of all these diseases from SAD specially the bain problems but curious about what Hava's official word about this is? @@AnneMB955

[@user-sl3tt1zx6f]

thats what i think, i don't like the term 'prefers' as applied to brain physio, I prefer the concept the brain burns cleaner by converting ketones than being forced by insulin to use carbs from blood. That is my current understanding anyway.@@AnneMB955

[@timelord5920]

The Big Meat Carnivore Lobby has already flooded the comments.

[@billyhw5492]

You could easily prove or disprove this theory with the simplest and cheapest study ever. Just divide a large population into 6 groups, and have each group consume 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 whey protein shakes per day, but otherwise eat whatever ad libitum. Do it for at least 6 months, better 2 years. Do it for healthy people, obese people, and type 2 diabetics.

[@prunelle19]

It's not just proteins leverage, I believe there is also "fat leverage" but there is no "carbs leverage". Proteins+fat is very satieting, proteins+carbs not so much. I don't agree that filling up your stomach with fiber is very satieting. On another hand, just one fatty steak will do the job without being full. So fullness does not equal satiety.

[@jenniferbowerman2573]

I think these guys need to see Kent Carnivore and what food digests into his stoma. Absolutely no fibre. We have no reason to believe that digestion is different for others.

[@robinbeers6689]

Exactly. This is the only flaw I see in Andreas' plan is this throwback to high fiber saying that it causes satiety. Bloating and feeling "stuffed" is not the same thing as satiety.

[@marianmurphy5385]

Kent carnivore is amazing..He’s stated that he’s having to have a further operation to remove the last portion of the ‘ intestine damage’ that Kent says was because of his previous vegan/ vegetarian diet. But it seems that most KZbin influencers have ..maybe complex histories..like vegan or obesity or diabetes..so all these factors are likely to be what scientists call confounding variables..my point is, for the general population some limited fibre intake could likely be an evolutionary adaptation..our ancestors may have died if they hadn’t the ability to survive on roots etc. But a diet only on these foods for years, like raw vegans maybe damages their guts..

[@chuckleezodiac24]

the Hadza eat a shitload of fiber. go tell them it's not healthy. poor things...

[@DrAndreasEenfeldt]

It's nomal from an evolutionary point of view for humans to eat fiber. Not doing so might be OK, but it's usually more risky to deviate from the evolutionary baseline.

[@robinbeers6689]

@@DrAndreasEenfeldt Being able to eat fiber and fiber being somehow essential or optimal are not the same thing. The fact that we can eat fibrous stuff if the hunt didn't go well and thereby keep from starving doesn't mean fiber is good for us.

[@annoyedaussie3942]

Interesting. One thing is it's in no way a silver bullet, Americans consume more protein than any large population has ever done in history and they are the fatest wealthy population on the planet. Another is about cost, unless we are talking about some very low income country it doesn't apply and they aren't fat anyway. A can of sardines with 20gm of protein costs $0.90 Australian dollars, 100gms of legume seeds with 20 to 25 gms of protein costs $0.70 Australia dollars, yes chicken and red meat are more but still completely affordable. Who exactly are we talking about who can't come up with $3 per day for high protein foods?

[@dinomiles7999]

Where's the scientific data proof !? Says who ? YOU ! LOL .

[@georgelewis8831]

Why complicate everything with fancy words? Just eat meat until you’re full - your body self regulates!

[@optimisedman]

Why is eating more Than 30% protein unsafe? The longer term carnivores seem To be doing ok

[@JesusChrist2000BC]

Wait a decade or so they won't be.

[@albeit1]

I don’t agree that people with less money have to eat carbs. Has that been the case throughout human history, where most everyone was much poorer than poor people today? I doubt it. No, this is a cultural problem. And a zoning problem, as poor people are often not allowed to keep animals like chickens around. Hand people food stamps or vouchers and you send them to a grocery store for all their food.

[@dinomiles7999]

JUNK SCIENCE !

[@cassieoz1702]

Hypothesis. This is all pointless I'd they don't keep track of how many subjects it DOESNT work for.

[@AnneMB955]

Pointless for you or for all the billions in the world?

[@cassieoz1702]

@annebialecki283 it's a fundamental/essential piece of information if you're going to invoke 'science'. The protein leverage hypothesis is not supported by all the animal research so it IS important to understand that it is a hypothesis and not an established fact.

[@georgelewis8831]

What’s the problem? Just eat meat!

[@georgelewis8831]

Why the fear of using the word meat? You skirt around it by saying: whole unprocessed food… just say meat!

[@timskolnik3819]

I don't ha8the patience for all this information

[@AnneMB955]

I do, I’m in charge of my own health. Being proactive.

[@JesusChrist2000BC]

These two don't look healthy and look older than their age. Their approach is completely baloney.