The Most Overly Hated Level in a Platformer

[@jjmartin6422]

*paid for by the Sandopolis department of tourism*

[@Kinzokugia]

bro is paid to like sand

[@zeusthefox1585]

The reason Carnival Night has water actually makes perfect sense. When playing through the zone as Sonic or Tails, you're playing through it while the island is on the ocean. Ergo places that normally wouldn't have water have water. When playing through it as Knuckles, you're playing after the events of Sonic's Story, in which case the island is floating again, meaning that water is gone. It's actually a brilliant attention to detail

[@omencito]

That is true, but then why would that be the only place where water is somewhere it shouldn’t be? Shouldn’t there also be some floods in Marble Garden or some S&K levels?

[@zeusthefox1585]

@omencito i like to believe that Sonic 3's Zones take place around the rim of the Island, which is why Carnival Night act two is flooded....also to point out that you are going down during the miniboss of Carnival Night then act 2 is flooded. Then during act 2 Sonic and Tails ascend which is when they fight Eggman on the roof, before chasing him onto the Flying Battery (that was the original intent for the zone order.) Marble Garden doesn't have any flooding because it's higher, seemingly up on the side of a mountain. Ice cap has water in its lower parts which makes sense being an icy area. The ice melts and seeps down into huge Aquafires (very likely reaching Hydrocity) And Launchbase is literally around the large Lake the Death Egg Crashed in. The S&K Zones are more in the center of the island so they aren't flooded.

[@zeusthefox1585]

@omencito another reason Carnival night might be flooding could be because Eggman built it in a hurry not really paying much mind to the chance of Sea water seeping in.

[@Creeps097]

the island shouldn't ever be on the ocean until hidden palace because eggman literally steals the master emerald there

[@MrBATrane322]

I liked Sandopolis the first time I played. Still enjoy it on every replay. I was happy to see it referenced in Mania's Oil Ocean act 2.

[@Uranus3Niffty]

Finally I'm not a total weirdo

[@Insert_name_here_123]

i love how he didnt comment on his own “rained on their parade” pun, but was completely confident in making people laugh which was evident with the moment of.. lack of dialogue.

[@arandomcamper5403]

COMPLETELY missed idea to state that those scrapped zone ideas were “deserted” tbh 😔

[@omencito]

Aww darn, I should have thought of that!

[@Insert_name_here_123]

@@omencitohaha, im glad you didn’t. Hey, congrats for this sudden burst of likes, views and some subs too! See you next stream!

[@SomeRobloxDudeWasTaken]

I liked the moment where he said “It’s Sand Showerin’ Time” and Sand Showered all over the place

[@CleaveTheDragon]

Because act 2 sucks. * the main mechanic is too constraining, forcing you from point to point or you'll have to deal with both the ghosts, and a darkening screen that isn't very pleasant to look at, making the area more monochromatic. * the types of hazards there tend to focus on wasting time, like those pillars that shoot up and down, push switches and walls, having to grab the lights, figuring out the slide mazes waiting for the sand to pile up * slower tempo of the music really drives this stuff home, droning and sapping away the energy Sonic levels usually have . * not ONLY do you have the ghost/light mechanic as a time pressure... you also have those walls that slowly rise back up. And you hear their sliding the whole time, which is kinda annoying and again, constrains what your focus can be on in a level. * the rooms are pretty small, leading to it feeling claustrophobic. * the sand slides are pretty confusing and again with the stress of dealing with the ghost limit it just makes it less fun to figure out what to do. They impact your movement by only allowing you to jump, so it's another sudden constraint to deal with. Some people time out in this zone, and usually around this specific part of the game. * If you play Sonic 3 & Knuckles as a complete game, this is the 9th zone in the game. By this point you've already gone through a lot of better stuff so it's kinda exhausting. If you're younger and playing through this game the first time you likely don't have as many lives and will game over here, ending a session. Taken by themselves some might argue that Marble Garden or Carnival Night are worse but they take place earlier. That does color folks perception. A better comparison might be Metropolis Zone. Obviously the theme of the level is you're inside a spooky haunted pyramid, so all these elements make sense. But compared to the rest of the game it's a different pacing that most people don't like. While Sonic 3&K has a relatively nice story that contextualizes the adventure, at the end of the day people play sonic games to go fast and try out different routes and have fun listening to exciting tracks and exploring colorful worlds and unfortunately, Sandopolis Act 2 sucks at all of that. Just cause something adds variety doesn't make it enjoyable, it's why Big The Cat gets shit on a lot. I don't wanna get to up the ass about pretentious meaning and such, but as a character sonic tends to embody freedom. His mobility is what physically enables it, as a character he tends to be chill until someone like robotnik tries to enslave critters. The level design reflects the tension between these two forces, with sonic prefer the feel of speed and multiple routes available to him, but Robotnik's influence causing you to stop and deal with hazards. It's a push and pull that helps break up the pacing so that the former feels more rewarding after the latter. Sandopolis is too much of the latter. Folks are also allowed to hate things and aren't obligated to hold every single level in high regard. When I think of whether I want to replay Sonic 3&K, my first thoguht is "oh, but I'll have to play through Sandopolis Act 2 at some point". At least it's not a water level.

[@jjmartin6422]

The light switches and the ziplines are time-sink traps. If you're playing Sandopolis like a Mario game the ziplines are a normal part of the level, but eat some of your time. If you're trying to play it like a sonic game or speed running, then the ziplines are actually a passivity trap that costs you dear time with little advancement, just avoid them and you'll get through Sandopolis much quicker. The light switches offer a trade-off for casual players in the form of having to chose between pulling a light switch and getting through a rising sand area faster. If you're speed running it, just ignore most of the light switches (if not all) and you'll shave more time off at the cost of a slightly higher difficulty.

[@omencito]

That's a good way to think about the level that I didn't bring up.

[@MarioMario-vy4bi]

I thought that was common sense. It’s like the air bubbles in labyrinth zone you can skip them if you want to go faster.

[@jjmartin6422]

@@MarioMario-vy4bi and the weird light-loop things in death egg zone. They actually only waste time without any benefits.

[@omencito]

@@MarioMario-vy4bi True, I've just never cared that much about finishing Sonic levels as quick as possible, so I end up interacting with stuff like that anyway even if not needed.

[@BloxyReimu]

Or get Hyper sonic like I did.

[@OhCrapI_He]

I actually got softlocked here. I timed out after hitting a checkpoint, and the checkpoint SAVED THE TIME so I had less than a minute to beat the rest of the level. I hate getting lost this way, so I usually just skip this level when doing a full game run.

[@cosmicalize]

I thought getting a time over restarts the time to 0 once you get one?? It usually does, I remember getting plenty of them.

[@MisterChief711]

it's true​@@cosmicalize

[@zeusthefox1585]

Yeah that's not possible, the time resets after a Time over.

[@dreamareakoso3791]

it’s not a full game run if you are skipping part of the game

[@Space-ious]

I got softlocked because I somehow got myself under one of the quicksand segments

[@WhoAmI928]

Omg another Sandopolis lover, I had a whole hyper fixation for this stage Also, unsure if you mentioned this or not, you can hit the stone guy from the act 1 boss into the sand instead of waiting

[@omencito]

Oh I've never tried that! Guess I found the waiting strategy to be more funny so I always do it

[@Lar_me]

You can hit him?! I thought he damaged you on contact!

[@SomeRobloxDudeWasTaken]

You can hit his head when it pops up ​@@Lar_me

[@natyfop]

I get all your points, and while I did get more and more skilled at S3&K the more I played it, Sandopolis is still a level I dread every time because it has the thing that ALWAYS gives me anxiety in games: a time limit. It doesn't really matter that nothing bad really happens when the time expires, I still feel pressured and suffocated when the game is constantly urging me to hurry up. It reminds me of work. I know it sounds dramatic, but that's how it feels for me. I can feel relaxed during all the other stages (which I could always comfortably beat way below 10 minutes), but when a visible time limit shows up - i.e., the ghosts constantly spawning and growing - the relaxation goes out the window Other than that, I agree with all your arguments. Except the dissing of Marble Garden. I do love that level, even if it's long :)

[@omencito]

Understandable, time limits stress me out as well, though it depends on what happens when time runs out.

[@bababooey5402]

Based opinion at the end; Marble Garden is fucken' fun. Just generally a fun stage, and one thing I like is if you REALLY care to go the extra mile, you can find ways to skip all but the last encounters with both act's bosses. At the cost of higher difficulty, you can go the entire stage and only see both the midboss and Robotnik exactly once each.

[@natyfop]

@@bababooey5402 Yeah! And having the electric shield in this stage is even better

[@Lazardevethefirst]

I LOVE SANDOPOLIS DO NOT TAKE THE SPOT OF BIGGEST SANDOPOLIS FAN FROM ME.

[@Lazardevethefirst]

RAGHHHH I LOVE SANDOPOLIS.

[@saladplainzone]

i'd take sandopolis over marble garden literally any day, i agree completely

[@SomeRobloxDudeWasTaken]

I actually like both zones tbh, they just need some time to get used to

[@jjmartin6422]

24:58 Claustrophobia. In the sense that it doesn't feel like any other sonic level: - There are almost no open areas. While more open areas are framed by the screen, the closedness of Sandopolis level design creates a secondary frame on the screen that subconsciously makes the screen feel smaller (a bit like having the screen edge go dark in some Mario levels). The ghosts staying on the edge of the screen until total darkness is a third frame that eventually collapses, multiplying the effect. - I don't think outrunning the camera happens in Sandopolis. - Most sand-related level features are like moving through a soup. The sand falls, the rising sand, the ziplines. They all feel like you want to go fast, but are physically incapable of going fast enough. I don't hate Sandopolis, I hate one room in Sandopolis when playing as Knuckles. It's got a push switch and on the upper left way is the exit, but there's right-facing spikes underneath it. Knuckles can't jump high enough to clear it easily. It sucks and it got me time overs more times than anything should.

[@Casual_guy1234]

How did bro convince me that sandopolis is somewhat good

[@Solesteam]

31:17 I remember my times playing metropolis zone, not a bad level if you take your time and the practice aiming your jumps comes in handy in wing fortress when you gotta do just that, but faster...

[@838Camper]

Sandopolis Act 2 is builded to be opresive, challenging and the the turn of 180 degrees of the melody with the mechanics make this act a very well builded. So underated area, what a shame... You said a pretty good arguments to defend your point of view. By the way, in the past i get bugged in the end of Carnival Night Act 2 with Knuckles. Sometimes you don't go under the floor and you get stuck with a pointless "goal".

[@omencito]

I'll add "softlocks Knuckles" to the list of Carnival Night's crimes, then.

[@Solesteam]

31:02 Ooh, a world where sandopolis never existed, the only downside I see is oil ocean in Sonic Mania being a tad less intuitive...

[@BigThumbus]

If this video isn’t therapy for sonic fans, idk what is

[@CupNStr]

1:38 Actually, the first desert zone in a Sonic game was Desert Dodge from SegaSonic the Hedgehog in 1993, but Sandopolis was the first in a 2D sonic game, and the first in a console Sonic game.

[@Qwertyexists]

I really like the idea of maze-like map design for Sandopolis; I only hate the amount of time overs you get, remove the 10 minute limit and you have a fun and intimidating desert to run through.

[@Pacca64]

It does have a lot in common with labyrinth and marble zone. You know, everyones FAVORITE sonic levels x3 I happen to be a weirdo that likes labyrinth, so I thought this zone was pretty cool as well. I also like playing as tails, and flying to cheese past the sand rising areas is pretty satisfying lol

[@bababooey5402]

I wouldn't say it was my favorite of Sonic 1, but I really liked Labyrinth. Under the original constraints, I think it doesn't lag NEARLY as much as people insist, even on Scrap Brain Act 3. And of course, nowadays you can play it with emulators that can remove the sprite limit, making the stage even less laggy. Outside the lag, it's a fun platformer stage. Very much not speedy, but Sonic 1 only has like 3 actual speed levels. I never necessarily minded slowing down for platforming anyways.

[@bababooey5402]

(Of course, it helps that they treat the bubble vents as decorations here rather than a proper gimmick in later water stages.)

[@JoeyCannoli]

I never knew that people hated Sandopolis Zone. It was one of my favorite zones in Sonic and Knuckles.

[@SteveMorris-c2r]

Sandopolis act 2 is a carefully crafted illusion of a maze. The darkness, background, the doors the rising sand, all of it is designed to make it feel like a labyrinth. The confusing visuals and stress inducing mechanics are designed to frustrate because thats the appeal of a labyrinth. People like to think that stress is always negative, but it many cases it is positive. Sandopolis act 2 creates the illusion of stress to accomplish rising tension before the games big climax which starts at lava reef zone. Lava Reef feels like a much better level than it is because of the tension set by sandopolis. The level itself is fairly straight forward and loaded with secrets and short cuts. Many of the switch and sand puzzles can be cheesed or bypassed altogether and the ones that can't are not hard. Like I said they are designed to induce stress. The levels length is another stress inducing tool. The reason why the level is so hated is because its designed to stress the player to create a positive release of stress once you enter lava reef. Many kids and some adults do not like stress in any form. So its understandable that they would hate a level designed to stress. Sandopolis is used the same way the water temple from Ocarina of Time is. Both create the illusion of stress and difficulty to create a challenge that enhances the feel and appeal of the levels that come after it. So the level is actually one of the games better designed levels. Its just that people remember it for the stress with out appreciating how that stress enhances the game I enjoy sandopolis. Its really not a hard level. There are so many ways to speed things up. Hyper sonic cheeses the whole level. I think the fastest I usually get through the level is 4:30ish but it rarely keep track because I don't play sonic for time trials. The ghosts are so easy to avoid spawning its pathetic. I in all my years have only ever been attacked by them a few times.

[@hamsand210]

Didn't expect to see my clip lol. I will admit the last time I beat Sonic 3 and Knuckles was in 2009 when I was 13, maybe I should replay it once more as an adult. To be fair, you're not wrong about Marble Garden and Carnival Night either.

[@omencito]

Oh wow, did not expect you to see this! Hope you didn’t mind my comment about the clips, maybe I should refrain from arguing against someone else from last decade.

[@hamsand210]

@@omencito it's all good bro lol I didn't mind at all

[@gameguider321GO]

I couldn't agree more, Sonic 3&K is the Sonic game I've replayed the most times. And in my opinion, Sandopolis Zone Act 2 is actually my favorite part.

[@Koistork]

Cool to see your tboughts on Sandopolis! I've never been a huge fan of it but i still like the level more than flying battery with its crushing elevators and bottomless pits. The length was never an issue as I tend to spend 5 to 7 minutes in levels normally exploring them how you would in CD. The video is also edited and presented really well and I liked the way you spoke about the level! Great job.

[@jc_thatone_]

Finally a sandopolis fan The act 2 and ghosts are literally the easiest thing ever

[@omencito]

The ghosts are but the level itself definitely isn’t.

[@jc_thatone_]

@@omencito i mean yeah but its fun once you get the hang of it

[@mikuxlukalover22]

5:03 You can actually speed this fight up quite a bit. Not many people know this but you can jump into the Golem's body to knock it back. So if you get on the right side of the screen while the door is opening you can jump into it a few times to kill it in like 15-20 seconds instead of waiting for it to jump into the sand.

[@teeman9266]

As a kid, sandopolis act 1 wasnt bad at all, i thought it was neat. The boss took me eons to figure out how to beat. Then the pyramid doors opened and that quietness with that darkness was a total shift in tone. The level was breezing ok, besides the music being forboding and unsettling. Then came the ghosts, got dark and and attacked. As a child i could not handle the stress of hearing that damn timed door knocking, me being attacked by ghost ALL AT THE SAME TIME being stuck on that infinte slide not knowing how to stop it, the stress was too much that i quit the game and never beat it again until i was 18

[@sajeucettefoistunevaspasme]

I liked sandopolis, it's hard but fun just don't get killed by ghosts not hard, I died twice or thrice but still

[@sajeucettefoistunevaspasme]

I died to the sand not the ghosts

[@hardmancanada]

Thank you for this video. Sandopolis is one of my favorite levels because of the unique level concept and it is challenging because it's a Late game level.

[@rogerhepton1785]

The production value on this video is really high! Subscribed. 🙂

[@abram-green]

Glad I'm not the only one who hates Marble Garden! Great video lol

[@Rogerbotnik]

I don't mind Sandopolis zone, I just hate the ghosts on act 2. It's not even scary or anything, yet they give me anxiety for some reason.

[@MisterChief711]

skill issue

[@Hyp3rSonic]

​@@MisterChief711🙄

[@omencito]

Very understandable. Time limits stress me out too, but it depends on what happens when time runs out.

[@RatchetAndClank14]

Those ghosts from Sandopolis are attacking you? I didn't know that

[@Niercle]

I don't know, I've never had any special complaints about this area (Only for the first time, when I got there, I had a problem not with Ghosts, but with the fact that I got lost on these sand slides :V) There weren't too many problems with ghosts and rising sand either And slow blocks and the same ghosts can generally be scored, because in Sonic 3 A.I.R. blocks are accelerated, and ghosts can generally be removed

[@thatgibberishrappingdog6057]

could not agree more with the marble garden thing, could not tell you how many of my random runs of the game mysteriously stopped at that zone

[@EpicFurbynerd76YO]

I agree. Sandopolis both acts, and all the slow levels in Sonic 1 are actually kind of good, just requires patience and skill.

[@thatguywholikesboos1475]

The Algorithm blessed me with another banger video, im shocked you don't have at least 30k subscribers

[@MattJF21]

The nostalgia reasoning as to why I used to despise sandopolis is SO TRUE!

[@toraregisfurry]

sandopolis is genuinely my favourite stage in s&k

[@JKDontJudgeMe]

Funnily, after replaying Sonic 1, 2, 3&K so much, i still hate Marble Zone, Scrap Brain Zone Act 1 & 2, Oil Ocean Zone, Metropolis Zone, Wing Fortress Zone, S&K Death Egg Act 1 Boss Labyrinth Zone (same goes Scrap Brain Act 3) and Sandopolis Zone aren't really a threat to me now. And I was used to hate Labyrinth Zone in the past, but seemingly never hate on Sandopolis Zone Act 2 in the past, maybe I just don't remember my past experience about it.

[@JKDontJudgeMe]

Maybe hate is too strong for it, more like I feel frustrated to those Zones.

[@Rinabow]

Sandopolis had always been my favorite stage in the entire game since I played it as a child, and was always the one I would go back to play after I finished the game and could go on the level select. It baffled me a little bit when I grew up and saw this level being universally hated in discussions. I think that things like this tend to have a bandwagon effect. When articles, KZbinrs, or other notable figures talk about liking or disliking a certain part of a game, other people who may not have had a strong opinion will unconsciously adopt those positive or negative associations into their own memories of the game, and it just spreads the narrative of which stages or features were good or bad. What I've always found suspicious is that for classic games like this, it feels like everyone's favorite and least favorite stage or feature is always the same or similar, which I don't think would naturally happen on its own, since many people will have varying preferences.

[@warioland523]

I remember playing this stage. Never saw the hate. The only reason I could think of why people hate it is because it's gimmick encourages speed to race to the lamp that lights the candles and makes the stage challenging. But if people hate the level just because it's hard doesn't make much sense. Besides speed is kind of a core thing. Not just with Sonic 3 but just ya know. Nearly every Sonic game in general.

[@animosity3771]

I played through S3&K for the first time this year and I instantly loved Sandopolis! I really loved the ghosts and the darkness gimmick of Act 2 and even tried playing without accidentally pulling a light switch for as long as I could.

[@Spookyn.]

Fr Sandopolis is great. Marble Garden is the zone that should've gone all the hate IMO

[@SalimShahdiOff]

Marble garden is okay CARNIVAL NIGHT ZONE ISN'T

[@nixtherabbit]

I love how the intro is just perfectly describing sonic 3 and knuckles stages

[@LarioLaker-h4p]

good video. now wait for my marble garden + carnival night zone defense

[@omencito]

I shall look forward to that!

[@Fyala102]

I actually played through Sonic 3 & Knuckles a couple of weeks ago for the first time. Sandopolis Act 1 really annoyed me, because it was so slow and I didn't like the gimmicks. Act 2 also annoyed me, but I liked it way more. The labyrinth structure, the switches that put you under a time limit, the increased anxiety from pushing the levers... It was certainly a very unique experience and I think it's interesting how fast Act 2 pushes you do go fast, even though the level is generally rather slow. It also helped that Lava Reef was right afterwards!

[@Hutch2Much]

i typically dislike desert levels, but both acts of sandopolis manage to look really aesthetically distinct. i understand the disdain for the sand slide in act 2, but this zone is incredibly underrated

[@madeira7710]

When I was a kid I didn't like this stage because I was scared of act 2 😂 I loved this video, you really should make more because you have so much potential, I'm surprised you only have 500 subscribers

[@CrazySega]

The Level Design is good its just the second act because of the sand but once you finnaly get past it you will be used to it. Also great intro

[@Smiley_thepink]

Wrong, Labyrinth is the most Overly Hated, It was decently short, had a great theme, and had a great aestetic Sorry had to give my own opinion, Sandopolis is great too, only one bad act which isn't even bad, only the fact that it is lengthy

[@omencito]

I don't mind playing Labyrinth Zone, but compared to the later Sonic games levels it feels like trying to run away from something in a nightmare as opposed to running away normally.

[@theoneandonly-qs1uw]

ok but be honest labyrinth is pretty bad when it comes to gameplay

[@luigibarqs]

Honestly, I think the worst zone in Sonic 1 is Spring Yard Zone. I actually really enjoy Labyrinth Zone and Scrap Brain Zone, and Marble Zone, while not a masterpiece by any means, is ultimately inoffensive to me.

[@EpicFurbynerd76YO]

I have to agree with @luigibarqs

[@Hyp3rSonic]

I always loved Marble, Labyrinth and Wacky Workbench

[@Pirochiro]

I remember getting stuck on various set pieces in act 2 but never hated it because of that, I loved how it felt like there were so many different puzzle rooms. I was an ancient egypt kid though so I may be biased.

[@ehhorve857]

okay, my crackpot theory : lack of freedom. tonic marketing makes a big deal about "go wherever at the speed of sound"/"go at your own pace", and, yeah, people do that. they tend to play VERY unoptimally. BUT, it don't matter, dey'z havin' fun! but The MOMENT they tend told you HAVE to do something, all the fun is gone. "I play shonic to AVOID homework! dis SAUKKSSSS!!1!1!!" y'know the adventure games? those emblem collection tallies? in order to get them all, you HAVE to grind hours, maybe even days, to chao raising, training and feeding to get ALL the emblems. and, yeah, the 100 percenter game completers *do* tend to haet the adventure games! also my MAN you are the first person I know who actually describes chronic levels. I struggle. just a lot of stuff happenin' for me. please describe more levels, I would love to know what I've been running through this whole time.

[@omencito]

Sandopolis is probably the only level I could describe, which is thanks to its linearity. If I tried describing the design of any Mania level, I’d go “Ok, we finish this small challenge, now we’re going down… and backwards? Alright so now we jump up this and- how did we get here?”

[@ehhorve857]

@@omencito dangit

[@Pirate_Knight27]

Yay! Justice for my Sandopolis zone! It’s one of my favorite classic Sonic zones!

[@spritemaker]

28:59 The general consensus on Oil Ocean is also everyone saying it's bad, like Sandopolis. I'd argue it is also overhated, maybe to the same amount even.

[@therealinferno161]

1:40 Heads up if anyone else didn’t mention it yet, but Desert Dazzle was exclusively planned for the 2011 remake, so whilst technically correct, Sandopolis predates it (Sandopolis instead directly deriving from the S2 concepts). R2 in 1993 CD was instead meant to be similar to MZ. Just came to when I heard it.

[@therealinferno161]

(I do actually like many of these points, and whilst SOZ2 isn't my favorite, I don't really disagree with anything (up to you bashing CNZ, which is fair).

[@supermtv56]

I also used level select to play Sandopolis act 2 early as a kid and was similarly disappointed in how much it didn't end up sucking and was genuinely so confused at all the hate it got. It's definitely a herculean task to go against an opinion that the fanbase has already decided is the correct one so I commend your bravery in defending this level's honor. Also always love to see Marble Garden hate.

[@nicolasbernasconi7228]

In all honesty, I can't understand the hate for any sonic stage from the genesis, I rarely die in them, and I just go at my own pace (This doesn't apply to the special stages, the only games I can complete them consistently are sonic cd [the original us release, not the remaster] and sonic 3)

[@omencito]

Funny how I’m the opposite with special stages: the ones in 1, 2, and Mania are easy for me but 3 and CD’s are very hard

[@nicolasbernasconi7228]

@@omencito i'm not sure about mania since I just do the cheat to make sonic go fast instantly and call it a day (though I remember that the first time I didn't have the plus version, so I couldn't do that cheat, and it was hard

[@KidPrarchord95]

I was just considering making a video defending Sandopolis a few days ago! This is a pleasant surprise! I will leave any additional thoughts I have in a reply after I watch this

[@KidPrarchord95]

Before I start, I should clarify that I am a MASSIVE Sonic 3 fan; it's one of my absolute favorite games and I absolutely obsess over it to no end. For the last few years, as well, I've mostly played Sonic 3 A.I.R., so that may color my opinion, but I still play the original game frequently enough that I think I can set aside that part of my bias for the most part. So, any point I make, just keep in mind that it's from the perspective of someone who is more experienced with this game than probably 95% of the world's gaming population (and I don't say this in an egotistical way; I just genuinely have spent so much of my time playing and picking this game apart, especially with my good friend Jamey who loves it as much as I do) I personally also think that the hate toward Metropolis and Labyrinth are very unfair and misguided, but I suppose that's an argument for another time! 4:42 I'd argue that they do frequently have this sort of creativity, and that's actually why I feel they're so unique compared to a lot of other platformers! It's just that most Sonic gimmicks are used in the sense that their creativity is how you either skip them (or use them) to gain speed, such as (fittingly enough) the trapeze gimmick in Sandopolis where you have to jump past it in just the right way to avoid it and land where you need to further down in the level 5:51 I actually think that boss is pretty fun if you smack it backward the whole time. And I think the suggestion that Sonic 3 has bad bosses is absolutely criminal; they're some of my favorite in any game ever 7:50 I absolutely agree that a lot of people's problems with this level (in fact, a lot of people's problem with classic Sonic in general) is down to skill issue. People just don't bother mastering the mechanics how they're supposed to, because they rely on the ring system as a crutch and they don't stop and have fun with all of the physics playgrounds littered throughout. Personally I'd argue that if a game can be fixed with a mindset change then you should absolutely try to do so. But, for the sake of argument, I do think the early levels should have done a lot more to FORCE you to get good at the game. I have no problem with huge difficulty spikes like Sandopolis, but for a lot of people they need a more gradual release from their training wheels instead of being smacked up against a wall they suddenly have to climb at the top of a shallow hill. But, in my opinion, Sonic is the kind of game that's SUPPOSED to be played over and over again instead of just once, so I personally think any problem that's nearly exclusive to the first playthrough isn't actually a problem. But I also think people would like classic Sonic more as a whole if other levels were more Sandopolis-like. Carnival Night and onward should've been at about current Launch Base difficulty and raising from there I personally feel 11:15 I really like Sandopolis as a name, actually; it sounds a little generic if you really think about it, but I think it's pretty iconic and fitting. I generally like Sonic games having a trend of naming some zones similarly ([X] Night, [X] Hill, [X]opolis) and I think it's really cute in general, so I like it for that reason alone 11:46 I don't think the level being long is a bad thing, really; it does a great job at leaning into the monotony of slogging through a desert, and it creates a nice contrast with the exciting climax of the end game starting right in the next level 12:49 I don't personally think Marble is nearly as slow as people say it is, honestly! I'd argue that something like Mystic Cave is actually a lot slower if you really know what you're doing 16:17 One cool thing is that if you have a second player or are playing one of the enhanced rereleases of the game you can use Tails Assist here to help speed up the sand section 19:39 Amongst the general Sonic 3 community, Carnival Night is actually the level I see get hated the most, roughly tied with Marble Garden Zone (Though, actually, I think I see a lot of people even hate Marble Garden MORE than Sandopolis). Personally, though, I think Carnival Night is misunderstood in very similar ways to Sandopolis, where people just don't want to engage with the level on its own terms 20:25 I agree that Carnival Night's water section IS the worst one, but I don't think it falls into the territory of being remotely bad, either. In fact, it even has one of the few times where you rush to stay IN the water to keep your speed, which I think is hella cool! My theory as to why the level has a water section is that act 2 was supposed to be a water park theme and this is a remnant of that, but either they ran out of time to make many unique assets or they figured Hydrocity Act 2 would make that a little redundant 21:06 I'm still of the opinion that anything that can be mitigated with replays in a Sonic game is not much of a problem. Yeah it's a little unintuitive, but I think its difficulty in being figured out is massively overstated, and we also live in [current year] where almost no one playing the game is gonna not know about the infamous barrel (I know that having to know specific knowledge about a game going in isn't really a defense of its flaws, but it definitely smooths them out) 21:27 I think the top is actually pretty fun, personally! And, even when it's not, most of the sections that "require" you to actually maneuver and fly with it instead of being flung through set pieces can be skipped over by using the game's physics system 22:36 Just memorize where the obstacles are 22:55 I think that Ice Cap 2's more lax approach was pretty intentional! It serves a purpose as a short and sweet easy and calming zone to catch your breath right before the climax. Star Light, Sky Chace, and Hidden Palace all serve this same function (I would say I think Sky Sanctuary fills the same purpose, but I think I'm too good at Sonic 3 to really comment fairly on its difficulty specifically) 23:19 It's a reference to the Wing Fortress boss ! 25:20 I think that also sums up why I hate Oil Ocean (Even though I love it simultaneously) 27:33 I think the idea is that you're triggering some kind of cooling of ventilation system (it just isn't conveyed well) 29:00 It may in fact still be down to nostalgia, because even though it's in another level people still will look at it and go "Ugh, they brought Sandopolis back" All in all, very good video! I think, despite my disagreements with some of the points, you have made me think about and appreciate this level (and game as a whole) in new ways! I'll definitely be sticking around And, in terms of the video's actual presentation, it's shockingly good! The audio balancing is great (a shocker for a smaller channel in my experience), you speak clearly and concisely, you use on-screen text very well, your points are refined and well-explained, and you always used the perfect footage on screen to illustrate your point! I very much appreciate it! My only complaint with the presentation is that putting the text glued to the top/bottom of the screen leads it to be easily obscured by the KZbin UI, or the captions if the viewer has those turned on Thank you for making this video and feeding the always starving Sonic 3 part of my brain; I'll definitely be sticking around to watch more of your content!

[@omencito]

@KidPrarchord95 Thanks for all the effort to write a response this huge! I’ll respond to all your points later, here’s some for now: -It’d be a lot easier to remember where stuff is in Marble Garden if the level didn’t look the same 96% if the time, and if progress wasn’t so weird so I can actually tell where I am in the level. -I know what Flying Battery Act 2’s boss is referencing, and I should have mentioned that, because I was meaning “why was it included in this extremely boring state” since all you do is sit there and watch it destroy the Flying Battery. It’s funny, but goes on for way too long and isn’t remotely challenging.

[@Solesteam]

22:35 Marble Garden is a good stage, the tops are my favorite part, they have no consequences if you can't tell where it's taking you because they act as a shield too

[@BigHairyMarty314]

The water section in Carnival Night doesn't seem too contrived to me seeing as the Floating Island is resting on the sea throughout Sonic's story and parts of the Zone are under the sea level as a result. Because Knuckles' playthrough takes place sometime after Sonic retrieved the Master Emerald from Dr Robotnik's clutches, the water in Carnival Night is completely gone thanks to the Floating Island being back up in the sky where it belongs. Also, yeah. The barrel of doom is more fiendish than those ghosts and the rising sand ever will be. I'm just lucky a friend managed to figure it out for me way back in 1994.

[@EnbyLite]

Most people first experienced Sonic 3 & Knuckles through the Mega Collection for GameCube, where both games were seperated until you started each a certain number of times. So even if you managed to be Super Sonic in Sonic 3 at age six, that safety net was taken away from you. Maybe it's dumb, since the game tries railroading you down that option with the Super Emeralds, you don't have to in S3&K

[@jazzzmo7]

Thank you! Sandopolis zone may be annoying, but I don't hate it. I mostly hated Metropolis zone. I always shut the game off after Metropolis zone because it was so slow and boring, and had 3 acts. It literally turned me off and wore my brain out

[@theinsanegamer1024]

Personally, I think that Sandopolis is probably some of the worst levels in that game. From a casual point, it's slow, stressful, and repetitive. From a speedrunning standpoint, it's slow and repetitive. But, that isn't to say it's a *bad level* at all. Being the worst level in a game filled with some of the best levels in Sonic history still puts it well above many others, even above the best levels in some of the worst games. So, while it might be dull, stressful, and slow, being the worst of the best still counts for something.

[@DandyDNA]

I prefer to play S&K standalone since about half of the Sonic 3 cart is pretty boring, whereas Sandopolis is the sole "meh" level in S&K. I loved Sonic 1, 2, and Knuckles as a lad and braved all their hard levels, so Sandopolis sticks out for me not because it's difficult but because of how overwhelmingly eclipsed it is by the rest of S&K's stellar levels. Subbed!

[@SomeRobloxDudeWasTaken]

Honestly, despite the fact this stage usually takes 5 minutes to beat (excluding the boss) the thrill (and panic) of finding a switch plus the many set pieces that require you to act fast before the ghosts get mad or for you to get crushed makes said 5 minutes not boring Also, i believe the reason why people think its mazelike is due to the first slide thats mildly puzzly but I can’t think of anything else, its really linear all things considered (Also, half agree with the CNZ and MGZ take)

[@zigaudrey]

I don't mind Sandopolis. But it is harder as Knuckles as ghost are already freed. You can protect yourself from ghost. But the bane of the existence is the sand slide. You have to jump on the moving plate-form to advance on the right track! And then come Lava Reef, my favorite zone!

[@soninhodev7851]

i agree with all your points, sandopolis is actually really cool, i woudnt put it in my top 5 or anything, but if i were to make a sonic zones tier list, sandopolis would be A- tier, or whatever, you know?

[@Everyonesfavoriteabomination]

Ngl I like Sandopolis more than Green Hill

[@joahvannimoussa3510]

On the topic of the music: I suggest John Tay's "Sonic and Knuckles Alternative OST" cuz Sandopolis Act 2's music there smacks, imo, even harder than the official version.

[@HarmonyBunny]

That's subjective. *_Carnival Night on the other hand_*

[@haiyo7245]

Hearing cobi and clement again after all these years stirred some ancient memories

[@Meshric]

I don't think I'd rate Oil Ocean is a particularly great zone, I think the new players won't like it because a lot of the fun comes from the fire shield interactions. But I'd say the lamest zone was Hydro City, by a country mile, as it's both the boring water level, and it's act 2 didn't do anything that interesting. And from what I've seen, general consensus is that or Titan Monarch.

[@omencito]

I'd actually kinda agree, I prefer Sonic 3's Hydrocity to Mania's for a reason I don't really know, other than that the only Mania zone I'm not that high on is Mirage Saloon.

[@Hyp3rSonic]

​@@omencitoBASED

[@theblackmoonrising]

THANK GOD finally someone who knows that Hydrocity from Mania is by far the weakest zone of the game

[@Amero2005]

call me masoquist, but I love this stage, specially the act2, the idea of the ghost is as stressfull as people descrives, but they don't tell how satisfactory it feels to achieve the light switch sooner than expected and manage to pick up the shield or extra life with enought time to escape aswell, also the music is cool af, easily one of my favorite tracks in the game, I do hate the sand theme generally, but I do think it's very well implemented here, the fear of getting killed by the sand works perfectly, and it's something that once you replay the level without the menthality of "I wanna get to the end" it's actually a pretty cool level. Ah ye, and I prefer this over Lava Reef, I just think it has more personality tbh (not really, I just hate the act2 boss of Lava Reef lmao) edit: I TOTALLY AGREE WITH FLYING BATTERY, THE ACT 2 MAKES ME WANT TO CRY BECAUSE THE LEVEL DESIGN. Thank you Mania for reworking the level.

[@MowseChao]

I never had any issue with the Sandopolis' difficulty, but when I was a kid, the ghosts gave me crazy anxiety. Mostly because I was young, had an overactive imagination, and expected some creepy-pasta-esque stuff to happen if I let the ghosts linger for too long in the dark.

[@kirbendo96]

I nearly have a heart attack whenever I accidentally use the ziplines

[@smolbrendan5978]

sandopolis for me is one of the more average length acts in the game, taking about roughly 3 and a half to 4 minutes. (ESPECIALLY when considering the 2 minute slog that lava reef zone act 2's boss is) reason being, the electric shield at the start helps to skip so many time consuming segments. the block pushing segment? skippable with the shield. the rappels? all of them can (and should) be skipped, but the double jump from the shield makes skipping them faster. the rising sand section? the first one doesn't matter, the second one can be skipped if you get the sand halfway up the vertical room, do a spindash jump off the sloped sand, double jump on top of the moving pillar, and proceed through the rest of the sand section with the electric shield. you can even skip the last sand room before the boss with a double jump, a jump off a skorp, or even a well-timed spindash jump across the gap. the sand slope sections near the start are also easy too, you just have to jump when you're moving left after you see the sandfalls. the electric shield also helps to correct your jump if you miss it the first time.

[@HyperShadic101]

man cobanermani456 that brings nostalgia, i like every level from the game though

[@Solesteam]

Sandopolis 2 is bad, act 1 is okay, I like doing the boss the wrong way on purpose if I have a ton of time to spare.... Act 2 is what drags it down, I hate ghosts as a concept, I hate invincible ghosts as an enemy type, the floating mummies in Kirby's Dreamland were bad enough... But the fact you can't just run from them is the worst part, *_the so called fastest thing alive is outpaced by some dead guys._* Challenging is meant to be a challenge not rage inducing, Lava Reef, Sky Sanctuary and Death Egg is actually a breeze after that, my first time passing it I was confused, wondering why Lava reef was actually fun, I never got even nearly as irritated with any level before nor after, it took the most time consuming parts of act 1 and then new time consuming stuff in act 2 and throws in invincible enemies to make sure you get the most frustration out of it and ensures you time out. Marble Zone feels more speedy, you can always damage boost through some parts, costing your rings for time. And frankly despite you claiming the ghosts are easy to avoid, strangely enough they bother everyone somehow. If it was a normal stage with the ghosts maybe people would have had a chance to learn how they work, if it was a permanently bright sandopolis people would have a chance to properly learn the gimmicks. I never had a problem with any other zone when I was first playing... Marble Garden, Death Egg, heck even Hydro City! Usually the water level is the lowest ranked, like aquatic ruin or Labyrinth.

[@omencito]

@@Solesteam The so called fastest thing alive is also outpaced by eggman

[@ItYaBoiGreen]

I love sandopolis so much, specifically act 2 but act 1 is pretty fun too!

[@satellizard346]

I was surprised to learn that people actually hate this zone. Marble garden was way more obnoxious.

[@SpectreSkirt]

i wasn't even aware people hated the level. hell, it's probably my favorite zone in the game. carnival night tho, yeah that's no casino night zone.

[@Lazardevethefirst]

Wait. I just realized he didn't play on sonic 3 air... Dude you have to play sonic 3 air, its SOO much better. Its bassicaly an emulator but only for the steam copy of sonic 3 & knuckles. And due to the game being removed. The only way is to ask someone who has it or... Become a silly pirate. Its up to you!

[@nicolasbernasconi7228]

I think there's a genesis collection in steam that has sonic 3 and knuckles (I can't confirm this though, I don't have steam)

[@omencito]

And that’s the thing, I don’t have the steam version nor do I know anyone who does, nor do I feel like pirating it. Sonic 3 Complete works fine for me.

[@jajao4943]

@omencito doesn't Sonic 3 Complete still count as piracy?

[@omencito]

@@jajao4943 Yeah but that one has a dedicated download page that I trust

[@ArcadeStriker]

After playing Sandopolis myself on a phone, I think I lost two lives against the boss but otherwise the level was no big issue really - beyond one small bit where you have to aim high in a ramp jump - as the more convenient looking part is only for Knuckles (and you would think it's a switch door until you notice you can get to a higher ledge), but nothing too bad. So it was funny to find that out myself after hearing bad things many times from people. Evem the ghosts feel way lenient when you realize that you're only getting yourself in trouble if you let enough time pass with two ghosts on screen (if three do, they attack)...while I almost always was rushing to the switches if a single ghost showed up

[@nervaaugustus7089]

Sandopolis Zone Act 2 has one big problem. Time limits. Not only is it long enough that you can be killed by the overall 10 minute time limit, but you're constantly assaulted with time pressure throughout the zone. Figure out how to get off the infinislide before time runs out. Get through the doors before they close on you. Remember to turn on the lights again before the ghosts attack. Stay ahead of the rising sand before it crushes you against something. More than any other stage, Sandopolis Zone Act 2 attacks you with time-sensitive obstacles that demand not only knowledge of the stage, but *time-sensitive* knowledge of the stage. This is a large part of the act's difficulty. The overall 10 minute time limit is something every zone and act has, of course, and time-sensitive pressure events (like drowning in water or escaping collapsing stage elements) aren't unique to Sandopolis 2. Sandopolis 2, though, utilizes them to positively obnoxious degrees, on top of being a relatively slow level with few opportunities to really go fast and enjoy Sonic's speed. The rising sand traps would've been a perfect opportunity to include a speed element, by having them occur in long straightaways, but instead they occur in vertical shafts, which means you spend most of the time dealing with the sand just standing around waiting for it to rise enough to climb to the next platform and escape it. The whole act is just "hurry up and wait, hurry up and wait" embodied, and that's why I think Sandopolis 2 gets so much hate.

[@Solesteam]

21:07 Carnival Night (Barrel of Doom Included) left me confused and irritated, Sandopolis almost cost me a Nintendo DS and a hole in the wall.

[@jkveri2002]

5:53 actually the point of this boss is to defeat him as fast as possible, pushing him into the sand (remember that Sonic bosses are made to beat them as fast as possible, they don't rely on the difficulty). It's easy because the devs obviously wanted to give players some kind of margin to understand that this boss is not beatable by just jumping over him like the rest of the other Eggman's bosses. Pyramid Guardian > Egg golem And that's my take on "The Most Overly Hated Boss fight in a Platformer"

[@biohazardbin]

Sandopolis is a decent example of easy to learn, hard to master. If you know what you're doing, then you *can* blast through it.

[@gusdotd894]

I was waiting for a video like this.

[@ragemaster280]

My honest opinion: While I don't HATE Sandopolis, there is one major reason why it just isn't as fun as most of the other levels in the game (for me); Momentum. One of the core parts of Sonic stages is the ability to gain and keep momentum throughout the stage and it's the main reason why the games are so re-playable, the better you get at keeping momentum, the faster and more satisfying a stage is. It's one of the many things games like Sonic 2 got SO right, and why it's one of my favorite games to come back to. The problem with Sandopolis is that almost all of the stage gimmicks immediately kill any momentum that you have, and some are outright unavoidable, like the switches to open the doors, as well as the random sand walls that appear from the ground (why do these exist?). I think that the reason most other people can't stand this stage is because of this, since most other stages in the game aren't like this, with Carnival Night being an unfortunate exception. It's also probably why people say things like "it's too slow"; it's not that it's slow, it's just that it's speed is so inconsistent and overall it just feels wrong for a Sonic game. However, I definitely prefer a stage like this to one like Marble Zone. I also think that the uniqueness of the stage sort of makes up for some of the gimmicks as well.

[@gooeydude574]

Barrel of Doom and huge maces aside, I find Carnival Night and Marble Garden to be pretty fun

[@kingbash6466]

I always liked Sandopolis. Act 2 definitely gave me life long traumatic anxiety, but I love desert motif, and it being on Angel Island brings up a lot of interesting lore discussions. Like who was that golem monster you fight as a miniboss? It can't be something made by the echidnas because you have to fight it as Knuckles to enter the pyramid.

[@Solesteam]

24:50 Because it takes the slowest gimmicks of act 1, and it's own timewasiters and throws in nigh invincible harassment insurers on top and rising unevenly shaped sand because it has a personal grudge against people who like Sonic Games, and I swear those ghosts didn't used to take damage from spindashes in the Classic Collection DS version. And because most people who played it have their fight or flight response triggered at the sound of Sandopolis's theme or tileset, and sadly it carries to Act 1 too by association. All of the other Zones have a balance from the bad and Good, Angel Island is easy, Hydrocity has the music and the speed factor and you can skip most of the water, Marble Garden has the tops, a ton of special stage rings and unique boss fight which you cannot say the tops are badly designed. Carnival Night... tries it's best... honestly it's the only one that doesn't have anything good going for it either... Ice Cap has the music and speed again, Launch Base has the boss fights and fun gimmicks, Mushroom hill is easy again, Flying battery has the music and only 1 harsh gimmick in the form of those elevators, which aren't that bad if you take your time unless you take the lower path for some reason then watch your step... Lava Reef provides therapy from sinister sand land in the form of an easier level and an epic act 2 bossfight introduction, Hidden Palace it takes actual effort to fail in, Sky Sanctuary is a decent challenge, aside from the occasional sniper shot from an Egg robo and has a throwback to Sonic 1 and 2 before introducing Mecha Sonic, Death Egg is a good culmination of challenges and final test of skill. Doomsday Zone is also anxiety inducing but for the right reasons. Sandopolis is made by someone who hated Sonic fans. It's not scary, it's infuriating. Rage inducing, I wanna punch it into oblivion, and Oil Ocean Mania does what sandopolis does correctly, if the ghosts just pitpocketed Sonic, Sandopolis would have jumped above the likes of Marble Garden, only mildly irritating. This is coming from a guy who thinks Labrynth Zone isn't bad, even for a first time playthrough.

[@ImmacHn]

As a kid the ghosts scared me so I hated this zone, that's it.

[@TechflashYT]

Great video, you deserve way more attention :)

[@b1uezer]

My problem playing Sandopolis act 2 was the pacing shift. Most of the gimmicks up until then were about positive level traversal, and Sand2's was the opposite. Not just one impediment, but several stacked on top of one another. One could say that Sonic game inherently have some "puzzle" design about them. You usually have 2-3 "routes," that have various obstacles or secrets if you pay attention to branches while exercising your skill with the game mechanics. Sand2 gives you near linear progression and puzzles you absolutely have to do to progress. If it had just introduced the lights, or the sand, or the varying doors, then it would have be a much more enjoyable level imo. Also wild take to not like Marble Garden. Easily one of the most fun stages because of the secrets and you can just fly through the level.

[@Silverrain84fly]

I played all the 2D sonics for the first time last year as a adult, I grew up with 3D sonic and wanted to see how they faired. Out of all the zones over all the games I hated Marble zone the most, it made me almost bench the game when playing.

[@DaveGaming_supercool]

The reasons why I dialike Sandopolis are as follows: Slow mechanics (The rappels, that one sand stream in act 1 that requires you don't jump, but WAIT, and I guess the rising sand); how freaking long the level is, totalling for me around 15 minutes, give or take; and the terrible bosses, probably the worst in the game. Red eye is better than both. Compared to Marble Garden and Carnival Night? Hey I don't like Carnival Night either, but at least I'm actually pressing buttons on my controller. And for a shorter period of time too.