The Most Underrated Unit in Total War

Been wanting to make this video for years - the unit so many players never even give a chance, and so often don't even know where to start with. Its potential is still locked away after a decade. It's time to unleash it.
The unofficial ninja stat fix, a must have for all Shogun 2 players:
steamcommunity.com/sharedfile...
#totalwar #shogun2 #volound
0:00 Introduction
1:45 Straight Fight
4:00 Stealth Ability
6:00 Bombs
8:00 Hit and Run
18:30 Flawless Hit and Run
21:30 Blinding Grenades
23:30 Conclusions
Best way to support me and what I do:
/ volound
❤️ Thanks to all supporters ❤️
My complete gaming setup:
www.amazon.co.uk/shop/volound
Join my Discord server and elevate those sons of bitches:
/ discord
My FB Page for ranty longposts:
/ volound
My Twitter shitterings:
/ volound
My Twitch:
/ volound

[@Volound]

I can't think of a TW game with more decisive combat than Shogun 2, and I can't think of a unit with more competency areas (highly situational and with weaknesses to offset them) than the kisho ninja. I'll be fascinated to know if I'm wrong, and likewise delighted to have it be confirmed that I'm right. Regardless, there's a lot of Hattori campaigns that ought to be played to utilise these. Send me your saves for my impossible battles series if it gets too dicey: And here's my most recent vid if you missed it, also important: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eHfJeXuLg8malc0 Let me know what you think of my theses.

[@basselwehbe8412]

shogun is the only total war game i have I've watched your videos and I'm wondering what faction would be best to play for beginners to get into total war

[@basselwehbe8412]

@William Newell thank you

[@basselwehbe8412]

@William Newell im playing an oda campaign im enjoying right now, i set up my troops in the forest and lured them in, and then ambushed them

[@Volound]

after a video like this, how could i not say hattori.

[@someorclad9738]

@William Newell As everyone here stated, Oda is your best bet. Strong modifiers, good leaders, good position, historically the most awesome with the most badass and inspiring warlord of the era, what more could you ask.

[@ntluck1592]

One of the biggest advantages of Kisho Ninja is when sieging. They are the fastest unit in climbing walls and unlike any other unit they do not fall when climbing. Each unit has a chance of falling off the wall but not Ninjas

[@Volound]

of course, check out impossible battle 16 - pink mist.

[@ntluck1592]

@@Volound Lol I remember that episode. If I'm right then the Parrot guns ended up killing over 4k or something with that kill zone you created. That's my favorite impossible battle so far. Simply epic

[@andrewperea1879]

So my army should have 70% ninjas in a siege, got it👍😂

[@elyastoohey6621]

Yeah in a siege they are awesome. Especially for some sneaky caps of towers or even the Tenshu.

[@Паехавший]

Wako raiders climb fast and don't fall

[@DafuqModeOn]

Oh man all of these different mechanics coming together, and I still think the greatest quality of these encounters is actually seeing those different ninjas 1v1 fighting the katana Samurai, seeing that actual clash instead of swinging in the air and knocking shit around

[@Volound]

this is how you make a total war game. TW at its best. no wonder they kept these into FotS.

[@Jonathan-bu7iv]

@@Volound except the horrible, horrible battle AI. I wish they fixed that so units don't just stand around wondering if they should throw the grenades or not

[@DragonballBlack]

I’ve been using Kisho Ninja wrong 😑

[@Volound]

this was when total war was great, when there was depth to be explored. when there was possibility and exploration.

[@justinwillingale2086]

Yeah ninjas are best used at night and for skirmishing and also when sidging big settlements go behind the enemy with them they will scale to the top and take parts of the settlement unprotected

[@AnalyticalReckoner]

Fire Rockets are amazing at deleting cav and generals.

[@scorpiontdalpha9799]

And damaging any units

[@wiktorutracki6469]

@@scorpiontdalpha9799 not so effective vs infantry on the field imo. Not for their cost, there are better units for that. But Imperator is right they simply delete enemy cavalry from the battle. Also single volley (or two sometimes) to get rid of whole archers unit on the walls - if you are forced to do offensive siege.

[@Volound]

yep check out impossible battle 21. using them like theyve never been used before.

[@wiktorutracki6469]

@@Volound wow xD

[@drizzlemcnasty7733]

Especially if the general is running away

[@ciaranobrien1666]

*Ninjas and katana samurai charge at each other* Ninjas: *use stealth ability right in front of them Katana samurai: “Shit, where’d they go?”

[@TheTanglerrr]

When 100 stealth

[@tititboubouille7879]

Must have been the wind

[@shigure27]

SHAMEFUR DISPRAY

[@kaocakeman2964]

I always ordered my kisho ninja to charge just as the first bombs were exploding. Don't know how effective it is but it's hella cool. Seeing ninjas running and cutting into the smoke was just aesthetic. And it always seemed to quickly rout the enemy unit with very few ninja casualties.

[@Raptorsified]

I do believe this has an effect as I try to do a similar thing by trying to time a flanking charge to hit right as a volley of matchlocks would hit. This is because the enemy gets a "under enemy gunfire" debuff (explosives in the case of bombs).

[@simonnachreiner8380]

It’s actually VERY effective. Units take a moral penalty for a few seconds after being hit by an explosive and they take another penalty from being attacked by a charging unit. If you combine this with an attack from the flank it’s possible to break near full strength units within less than thirty seconds.

[@SplendidFactor]

Well then, time to boot up Shogun 2 again this evening.

[@Volound]

attaboi

[@dishonorable_daimyo1498]

@@Volound You inspired me to start streaming battle replays from the game. Keep 'em coming my man.

[@Toshiro_Mifune]

i did the same, last week after binge-watching The Shogunate's sengoku series. make sure to use Ultimate immersion Mod, didn't have that much fun with a tw game since...well since shogun 2 i guess.... *LOUD SOB

[@jarlborg1531]

Wish they didn't suffer so bad in auto resolve.

[@omikhlephonon]

Wise Shogun seeks no auto resolve for there is no scenery more beautiful than dead and routed opponent's backs on the tactic map! Osu

[@someorclad9738]

@@omikhlephonon Indeed. Slaughter is a thing of beauty to behold. Buddha proclaims inner peace is of paramount importance. I agree. I achieve my own nirvana when I see thousands of dead Ikko Ikki filth, the spears of my ashigaru gleaming red with fresh gore.

[@sircarlos3707]

@@someorclad9738 Damn...but you're right, it's beautiful

[@wisdomball4584]

shogun 2 autoresolve is completely fucked. Every campaign i just build ashigaru and every time i see lots of samurai in an opposing army i can just autoresolve for basically zero casualties. If you fight those same samurai on the battlefield your army will be completely routed.

[@rikrishshrestha5421]

@@wisdomball4584 Bruh, game is fun when u play it , not let the computer play it 4 u. When computer plays it 4 u , why does win or lose even matter right?

[@danilshcherbakov2126]

I would say that the fire bomb thrower is the most under rated unit. In my hojo game I defended a crappy castle against Takeda Shingen and his half dead stack of level 7 samurai. Only 5 yari walls and a few fire bomber units pinned and blew up a lot of valuable samurai. Wouldn't have worked with any other ranged unit because they can't do indirect fire. Plus it's always good when the enemy brings these fire bomb guys and routes their own men.

[@maxmustermann-zx9yq]

all ranged units seem to have a "reload" cooldown that doesnt go down while running which messes up kiting

[@MasonDixonAutistic]

Ideally that should only affect guns, with other missile units only having to 'ready' with a short animation rather than 'reload' with a long one.

[@ironlogic7837]

Have you tested this yourself? I could swear I tested this at some point, and they do in fact reload while running. All infantry except yari ashigaru have the same base speed, and ranged units have to line up before they fire, so kiting indefinitely is impossible between foot units. Kiting for an extra volley is impractical but possible. Units move very fast in this game and reload quite slowly, so you'll end up running pretty far from your army if you can manage to micro this (which would require a lot of skill). I'll edit when I test this again. edit: nope, I think you're right. Even archers stop reloading while running. I find it kind of strange because there are already several sorts of mechanics that would make it very hard to kite on foot. If I recall correctly a unit that is chasing another recieves a slight speed boost meaning you'll always be losing ground against an enemy unit with equal speed. Even if you could reload while running, it would be very micro intensive to do so and you wouldn't be able to keep it up for long. I believe manuals from the time show that units like Tercos would have been trained to reload while advancing or retreated. My ideal version of shogun 2 wouldn't have gunpowder cavalry, but it would have units reloading while they move. In the current state of the game, once the melee happens ranged infantry units lose 90% of their offensive capabilities. Even archers start shooting sporadically because the games AI seems to prioritize avoiding friendly fire unlike shogun 1 where the AI will trash friendlies if you order it to. Makes them feel kinda lackluster in anything but sieges. They're essentially screwed if your melee lines break.

[@notanonymous3976]

@@ironlogic7837 ninjas are faster than normal infantry

[@SilverforceX]

Horse archers run n shoot just fine. All the gun powder units have to reload though.

[@agreedo9530]

Definitely the most FUN unit. When you pull off a crazy attack with them its always so great

[@jerrellallen6271]

This video felt like I was hanging out with my friend when I was a kid, experimenting with different units on Rome Total War. nice.

[@jaspervanheycop9722]

My personal pick for most underrated is the Spanish Almughavar in Med 2. If you look at the campaign description for Spain, it praises their melee and skirmisher cavalry, strong late period tech and points out their weak early infantry. This is a lie: The Almugavhar in the hands of a skilled player is one of the best infantry units in the game. It can perform okay-ish in melee (about the same as a generic feudal knight with a blacksmith upgrade) but it gets access to a javelin attack of 12, in a period where you are lucky to get 5 out of an archer. And it's armour piercing too! And it can hide anywhere. It is an absolutely devastating glass cannon ambush unit in a game where all infantry is normally slow and chunky. Now a bad player will just leave it on skirmish mode (which is never a good thing btw) and let it get trampled in the rear by cavalry and proclaim that it sucks. When someone in the know can turn it into a campaign-defining unit that can be useful well into the age of gunpowder and plate armour.

[@dogehkiindogeborn5339]

They can shoot over units with their attack so you can put them behind your main line to destroy any cavalry charges, also their melee weapon is a shortspear which gets a bonus vs cavalry so when meleeing cavalry their attack 16+. Handgunners are another underrated unit that serve a similar but less versatile role They are a

[@Volound]

wow interesting. i dont remember those. that reminds me of the forester warband in RTW whose secondary weapon is the same - anticav.

[@wanderingpine4297]

Yeah, an Almughavar with upgrades is like the Roman infantry in RTW, only with more javs. Also the Timurid have the same kinda unit with Afghan javelinmen

[@SimonNZ6969]

I think Ninja's could have been cool if the unit was attached to the Ninja agent. So if you put an Agent in your army, you get 1 unique unit of elite but small soldiers. Ie, Ninja for Ninja, Metsuke could have some unarmored police/retainer style unit with high attack and a demoralizing effect. While Monks could have a Zealot unit of morale-boosting warrior monks. Since Ninja's weren't that numerous, I think it would make sense having one squad per army.

[@Narvaljodchik]

This could work if they had special retainers, ones that would allow battlefield deployment like you described

[@Mr.BlueOfficial]

"This is immense" 11:16, lol I love these games to bro..

[@scavenger6268]

If you want to play as the cheekiest Hattori with these ninja just remember this: Night battles, Covering bandit archer fire, a barracks, and all 3 ninja provinces become smuggler. Why? Night battles lowers an enemies morale so stealth charging them will just decimate them. Your Hattori bandits although infamously low tier and thus cheap are invisible when firing, have +10 accuracy (which is the exact amount reduced by night battles), and have 40 men less then ashigaru, but will get more shots off until they get revealed. A barracks will become a lifesaver for your armies as you have more enemies than troops and getting back to full strength is very necessary...plus i like to think im getting them better food & booze with the smugglers...see i can be a nice warlord. Lastly, smugglers are literally equivalent to crafts (paper mills) provinces in terms of raw money to help finance your various shenanigans and (ahem) you start in one and bordering the other two like it....in the whole game. Did I also forget to mention that smugglers give you rank 3 or 5 kisho ninja? Anybody else got any tips you'd like to share please do for our future warlords.

[@justinwillingale2086]

Have to admit when I first used the ninja I found that they saved my whole campaign under night sidges I scaled behind the settlement to where the general was and killed the most valued unit in the sidge that was not protected by any men because the person online didn’t take my hidden unit into consideration he wrote back saying Jesus that was actually quite cool I was like yep

[@paulcar2356]

Good points throughout the video, but their cost in campaign is in my opinion insanely high for them to be worth it. A base cost of 275 is already huge, but in legendary difficulty with a 22% increased upkeed on all units they have an upkeep of 335, which is close to the upkeep cost of two samurai units. Also even if you want to use them with a faction suited for that playstyle like the hattori you will only have a slightly cheaper unit (305 base upkeep against 335 for a generic one) but you'll use a huge part of the unit with only 2 ammunition instead of 11 for the generic version. Overall great use in battle but not good enough imo to be worth the cost. Too bad that you usually get them super late if at all in your campaigns though because they are extremely fun to use.

[@Volound]

there are plenty of situations where a unit of kisho ninja will make a bigger difference than 2 samurai units. they can do things no other units can. you should want to play as well as possible and be ambitious. no total war game rewards ambition of play better than shogun 2, and few units are better for that than kisho ninja. also hattori kisho ninja are bugged and playing with them bugged instead of fixing them with the patch is just silly.

[@carltonbauheimer]

I've always thought the vikings unit from Medieval 1 to be the most underrated.

[@octaviani6146]

They are definitely up there. The charge, the defense, the armor-piercing... you can pretty much run Viking raiders + dismounted huscarls in tandem and dominate with pure aggression until the late game, especially with an armor upgrade. Denmark is awesome.

[@carltonbauheimer]

@@octaviani6146 especially considering you can automatically recruit them from a basic fort without any other development. It's basically a feudal men at arms with an armor piercing attack you can recruit from day 1.

[@Volound]

@@carltonbauheimer interesting, i skipped medieval 1 (only TW i missed all the way up until i missed empire on purpose)

[@boshengjones1778]

@@Volound med1 is the best gaming music period. Please check it out. And it is still the best campaign wise in the whole series to this day. having starred general buffing stats to rediculous lvl, means if your opponent has a high ranking general commanding a whole stack your most effective way is to assassinate, or if your Catholic it's the terrifying inquisition, no later titles in the later series ever conveyed how sacred you would be if your opponent has five or six inquisitors going through your territory, if you haven't take time to assemble a team of assassin's to counter just that. Then your at the total mercy of AI, the inquisition man. They were brutal as fuck. So sick so unfair so mental. You can also scroll down your character traits to see the flavour text. The first time your got off inquisition and were proven righteous and released back, your were gaining piety, god is with you seeing your the righteous Christian that you are. Then inquisition happen again and again, you can see your character gaining trait like born again, then wavering faith and finally atheist - which pretty means he is dead come next turn. Inquisition insta kill if your piety is zero.

[@ArtilleryAffictionado1648]

Fully agree. A "useless unit" than when properly used can change course of battle. Altho i joke with shogun 2 and i like the "mounted ninja mod" (guaranteed fun), the vanilla ninja is fucking awesome.

[@photosyntheticzee9915]

Invisible horses? Or mounted on imported Siberian tigers?

[@someorclad9738]

@@photosyntheticzee9915 Both.

[@FLEMNMable]

Man this excellent, would be interested to see you do a similar video on matchlocks

[@ballerlarva4214]

Imagine if instead of single entities we got all the buggy interactions with men standing around or not throwing their bombs properly dealt with. Also, I don't think the potential of blind grenades was fully shown here. Given that it doesn't deal casualties but instead applies a debuff to whole units, and looking at how big the spread was on those bombs, I think that it would be fairly easy to apply that debuff to at least two enemy units in an actual battle. In that case the kisho can simultaneously get an easy fight themselves and also give an adjacent unit an easier fight.

[@MasonDixonAutistic]

"Imagine if...." *Pain*

[@the_honma6472]

In terns of underappreciated units I would like to mention the whole Roster of RotS. It"s quite the tragedy that the Samurai units are simply to powerful, because I think if these would get some sensible nerfs the whole design of RotS would be close to perfect. Everything in RotS is very simplified and reduced to a point where you are even locked into loose formation, which makes the game generally more oriented towards offence. I feel like RotS was designed around making the most out of the core mechanics while maximizing simplicity. I would like to give some examples for what I'm talking about: -Sword Attendants: the only regular, dedicated Sword unit in RotS is not a simple Meele Fighter, but Shock Infantry whose perfomance, relies A LOT more on getting that brutal charge in, which requires timing and setup and benefits greatly from positioning and terrain. -The most common weapons are Naginatas and Bows. The many Bows on the field increase the importance forests and the units Armour. The abundance of Naginatas make it harder for cavalry to strike which is balanced out by my next point. -The morale is generally lower, because of this things like tactical advantages, rear formation, killing the general and timing (of for example the Warcry ability), have a far bigger impact on the Battle. It's a great Roster where things change more drastically depending on army composition and the Battle Map.

[@ironlogic7837]

One of the biggest problems of the Sengoku campaign is the meta that develops around yari wall. It's so cheap and so effective, while stat boosts are so abundant, that the first unit you get in the game is the only one you'll ever need. 19 ashigaru rush army with 1 general is not just the easiest comp, but probably the most effective because of the economic advantages it provides. RotS has a totally different meta despite being of similiar quality and design as Shogun 2. Even if it has it's own design problems, I think it's not unreasonable to say it's unappreciated. It's a shogun 2 campaign remix.

[@Volound]

​@@ironlogic7837 this is how all RTT/RTS games work. i can play through all of AOE2 with just the militia line. i can play through all of red alert 2 with just conscripts. the challenge prescribed by the developers is not a real challenge. i can achieve more with the same cost if i swap some yari ashigaru for other units like nodachi and light cavalry. if youre at your best with yari ashigaru in yari wall on a hill then youre a very timid and ineffective player and are telling me youre basically at your best when youre not involved in the battle (are just spectating and not really playing). yari ashigaru are a very limited unit. if youve never done anything like this in shogun 2: kzbin.info/www/bejne/r4qYiJV4nbqakJY then youve never really played it. fair enough but your statements only apply to you and i cant empathise with them at all.

[@ironlogic7837]

@@Volound I'm don't have to be passive. I can charge and smash shift + 3 before contact. Yari ashigaru in yari walls are akin to a discount naginata samurai with the cavalry bonus of yari samurai. If you master walling up right before contact (not difficult) they're essentially the best melee unit in the game. edit: deleted a large wall of text I wrote last night. Maybe someday I'll do a set of videos reviewing/explaining the gripes I have with the mechanics in the game that other total wars did better. Yari ashigaru are simultaneously a pike unit and a spear unit from rome 1. They also form walls instantly and are insanely cost effective with a couple buffs. You can totally avoid the unwieldly speed by popping yari wall the instant before contact where as in rome 1 pikes had to form up. Skirmishers would easily kite them. In shogun 2, these walls are just a toggleable buff. A simplified version of a past mechanic. In multiplayer a player will can pull out, but in total war the ai doesn't do that (with infantry), so for the player there is literally no downside. This game drops the ball in certain respects and even though I enjoy your content, I'm kind of annoyed that you give this game a pass on things you'd critsize other games in the series for doing. I really enjoy your content and I hope you post more. ty for responding to my comment.

[@Volound]

​@@ironlogic7837 it isnt a pike wall. oda long yari ashigaru are the pike equivalent in the game, so thats not even wrong. also i can play rome 1 in the exact same way as you are describing with toggling pike wall so i dont know what you are even saying at this point. its effortless to get in and out of pike wall in rtw, and rtw is a slower game than shogun 2 where you cant even interface properly and attempt high APM control, so no game punishes static unresponsive infantry units better than shogun 2. if you play against a player doing your yari walls, youll get swept through. anything you claim to be able to do with yari wall toggling, i can outperform by removing some yari walls and replacing them with literally any samurai unit, because any samurai unit has way higher morale and charge and can easily force situations where enemy units (player and AI, but AI especially) can be outmaneouvered and broken by hammer and anvil of yari wall and samurai flank. i will finish battles where any samurai units i have get 3x the kills of any yari ashigaru i have, like this. and their chain routing will keep all of the yari ashigaru alive. youre just doubling down without apparently acknowledging what im saying, which is 10x more annoying than anything you could possibly say im doing.

[@ironlogic7837]

​@@Volound ​ I don't know if you're just being obtuse, but oda long yari ashigaru use the same formation. Their name and spears are purely aethetic. They're the same unit reskinned with additional stats. Every unit is just an expression of their stats and abilities. Their animations and weapons are just visual representations. If a yari samurai has the same stats as a katana they will perform exactly the same. What I'm saying the 'orthoginal unit differentiation' breaks down because general command (stars), arts research bonuses, general skill trees, stat boosting buildings, expierance, agent buffs, ect are flat bonuses instead of a multipliers (percent) of base stats. The things that make units valueable are the things you can't find in abundance from campaign bonuses. If all units have high attack and morale, then what matters is the traits that can't be replicated through bonuses. Your army can have high melee attack and defense without samurai. Samurai have disciplined trait going for them, but that's about it, and it really doesn't become relevant unless the battle is clutch (general dying, losing battle, ect.). Yari ashigaru have 3 perks that (most) other melee units don't have. More men, the ability to wall (which damn near doubles their combat efficiency from the front) and a high bonus vs cavalry. This is why people hardly use yari samurai. They aren't a bad unit, they just don't do anything that a yari ashigaru can't do 95% as well, despite samurai being more than three times the unit cost (consider buildings, recruitment time, research) and twice the upkeep. This brings me to my next point. Yari wall is dumb. In rome 1 pikes have to be in a square formation to recieve the benefiets. It's an actual formation. I feel like I need a video to show you what I mean because you're not understanding. Here's an extreme; if you charge a pike unit into battle in rome 1 and activate right before you connect, the men will actually stop and even pull back for several moments adjusting their position, their spears will not fall into place in front of them until they are standing in the correct spot relative to everyone else. This should be common sense. Long spears are very shitty weapons to use individually. Once someone gets past the pointy part it becomes useless paperweight unless you have someone behind you and next to you, to ensure that regardless of how close an enemy gets, someone in the middle ranks is able to fight them off. The game encourages careful and deliberate movements through it's mechanics. It takes time for your unit to form up after they've stopped running and they're vulnerable to cavalry when not in wall. Being hyper-aggressive is not their strongsuit. Pikes aren't spear units with pike wall. They're units who's downside is, that they are reliant on being in formation to be effective and can't crash into or chase enemies without incurring penalties. The system was far from perfect but the concept was there. Their mechanics and role as a hybrid anti-cav and anti-infantry unit had proper benefiets and downsides. They could kick ass, but had to advance slowly, and prepare early. They should have built on this, not trim it down to a shell. In shogun 2 yari wall has negligible penalties and is super forgiving. You practically cant fuck it up as long as you do it. Your men could be running at full sprint, disorganized and spread out because you just chased a cavalry unit off and shifting to a new target to intercept samurai charging your archers. You can activate a clutch yari wall and your men will lay down their spears instantly and advance into the formation with their spears down the whole time. The front rank gaining the benefiet before the middle and back ranks even arrive to the fight. What's worse is they have bonus vs cavarly outside even outside of their formation effectively ensuring yari samurai have no role. If you wall up in melee they become defacto naginata samurai. A few chevrons and they'll cream a katana samurai while also being able imitating the feats of a yari samurai against cavalry. A couple improvement building and general buffs and they'll beat anything, even katana samurai with the same improvements. The movement penalty of yari wall is not even a detriment since you can activate it in the enemies face like nothing. Yari walls weakness to missiles is laughable as archers suck at shooting over their allies heads and you'll sprint up until the moment you're face to face. Archers don't even kite/skirmish (even shogun 1 had this) and will let themselves get grinded down by a yari wall they could easily shoot down. The ai doesn't use yari wall despite spamming vanilla ashigaru. The ai doesn't even try interacting with those systems. Yari ashigaru should get a bonus stat called "bonus vs ai" to indicate how broken they are. It's like the opposite of the difficulty modifiers in other games. Your infantry just does better if you're at all familiar with the game at all. This is my favorite total war also, and I like your videos but can we stop pretentious about the games quality and 'strategic design' ? It's got a ton of jank and cut corners like other total war games. It's got a lot of foo stratiegies and it also has mechanics that punish skillfull diverse armys. You have to deliberately gimp your economic growth and raise your micro to achieve the same ends as a agent/unit spammer. I wouldn't be surprised, if you crunch the numbers that you'd need to get 4x the amount of kills on a katana samurai to make up for building a dojo instead of a market and paying for samurai units instead of snowballing your economy. It took forever for CA to even make diverse armies in multiplayer advantageous. They barely even tried with their campaign. On another note, kisho ninja were incorrectly buffed in the final patch. They only updated the standard sengoku variant. The fots, multiplayer and improved sengoku variants all still have 2 ammo on the data tables. I also don't agree with the buff at all. With the buff they are the same price in custom games as fire bombers, have more ammo, faster reload and more men. They're super bombers with those stats. Hanzos Shadows always had 11 ammo, but their price reflects that and they are the same size as fire bombers. The fots, multiplayer and improved sengoku variants all still have 2 ammo on the data tables. I don't trust whatever intern CA put in charge of balancing the game post-launch anyway. At some point mangonels and european cannons had their accuracy nerfed from 55 to 20/25 respectively to "balance" them the avatar mode where you could get them to 75 using veteran accuracy upgrades and to 90 with inspire. Mangonels can't hit a damn thing anymore. Instead of adjusting their ammo, or removing their use in open field battles in multiplayer, or taking away their veteran upgrades. Instead they nerfed the base stats across the board and ruined 2 viable sengoku campaign units that weren't that even good in the first place to appease reeeeing in the tiny multiplayer community despite the fact that avatar multiplayer was neigh unbalanceable (most units outside of the core were utter garbage). I reverted my ninja and stationary siege units to their original values because fuck that guy and incompetent decisions that could have been done better by a novice tier modder. Just my 2 cents.

[@gabrielnguyen5580]

that stealth trick at the begining just fuckign blew my mind omg

[@user-cp9pj3gx7f]

Man, I remember when you had 14k subs, but now I just noticed you're nearly at 100k. Keep up the content!

[@Volound]

nothing can stop me.

[@appz3]

I tried deploying kisho ninja and my opponent laughed himself to death, very effective unit.

[@Scrumpcraft]

It's funny you made this video because I just played through Shogun 2 for the first time a month ago and I made whole armies of Kisho Ninja. Pretty insane how they can turn the tide of the battle. I would use their bombs to break whole lines of Ashigaru, charge in, and then use the smoke bombs after a short period to break the unit.

[@danielkjm]

*Yes Thank You!!*

[@photosyntheticzee9915]

Is it possible that stealth makes it so your ninjas are even invisible while fighting in melee? That would explain the momentary paralysis of the katanas.

[@Emperor_Atlantis]

10:18 ' you sort of saw it in 3 Kingdoms, but not really" Holy shit that was a sick roast+ truthbomb🔥🔥🔥🤣

[@pigspigs76]

Kisho ninja was my favourite unit in shogun 2, I put out the retainer glitch to clone units and it went viral back in the day

[@harlek1149]

I've always liked these guys and have tried hard to make them work, appreciate the guide. Wtih some chevrons and campaign upgrades they'll be even deadlier.

[@MauricedelTaco]

Glad to see someone else loves this game. I wish they would remaster it with loads of in depth economic, civic and military buildings.

[@roguewasbanned4746]

Volound spoiling us with these uploads

[@MrJungo62293]

Have you tried throwing the grenades in a square formation? Seeing that matching the length of the enemy unit proved advantageous, maybe focusing on the center could have a greater effect when charging.

[@wheelchair2443]

it’d be good if you talked more about their potential in combined arms battle. the overview of their strengths and weaknesses is good but it’s their potential for interplay with other units that makes them so special using them to smash key points of the enemy line by charging in using stealth to chunk out a unit, and setting up for the reinforcements only a few seconds behind (nag monks are great for this) to obliterate that unit while allowing the ninjas to withdraw there are loads of ways of using their stealth charge potential and their bomb ambush potential as an entry into demolishing strong enemy positions

[@megaoptamas759]

Ninja are a lynchpin in shogun 2. You can do so much with them in the sandbox

[@HoundXXII]

Hell yeah, I love the aesthetics of these guys, always wanted to make an army of them, just never had a PC good enough to play this game.

[@jasonports8517]

I remember discovering the use of bomb throwers: I had two yari ashigaru and two gun ashigaru against some very experienced sword samurai. I discovered that if I hide the bombers and let the samurai charge in close formation at my spread out firing line I can rush bombers at them and obliterate them with minimal friendly fire

[@folou9199]

Ashigaru are always doomed to be expended for great tactical gain. Their brave sacrifice to friendly fire brings our daimyo closer to being shogun one yari length at a time

[@ulture]

@@folou9199 and then the samurai class wonder why so many are joining the Ikko-Ikki

[@alekssavic1154]

I vaguely recall once, some years ago, a unit of Kiso Ninja of mine managed to completely rout an attacking army in a siege (I happened to have them laying about in an otherwise lightly defended castle, and while I don't remember the details I remember their bombs managed to single-handedly save my butt in a battle I should have lost).

[@chosenone-akayorubaprince1393]

Where did you place them?

[@SusCalvin]

Just having a unit that can appear in places where the enemy does not expect an invisible unit is pretty awesome, when used to support a main line of standard troops.

[@DarthBodya]

I play that tutorial mission as Chosokabe. Most hardest for me was that big siege battle, where you get tons of different units, you also get canons but they don't work. You also get kiso ninja and I heard they really good at sieging, because have no falling from a cliff penalty, but every time enemy spoted my ninja and they wiped out. So how right to use kiso ninja at offencive siege battle?

[@Don-ds3dy]

0:00 oh for a second I thought you were talking about the Pike Men from Empire.

[@mark140363]

Thanks for sch a detailed and informative video showcasing the capabilities of one of my favourite S2 units. I found that I was able to emerge from a wood, use stealth, fire-bomb a katana samurai in the rear, throw blinding grenades and be back in the woods before it could detect me. Wait for abilities to refresh, rinse and repeat. Upshot, katana obliterated, kisho ninja - zero casualties. In spite of their capability, I find the actual opportunities to utilise them to their full extent to be few and far between, owing to micro intensity and too many other units to manage. However, on the rare occasion that the opportunity presents itself to use their skills, it can be most satisfying. Until very recently I have been using a mod that increases the ammunition for the Hattori and Tokugawa units to match that of the base unit. I have now had second thoughts about this and would welcome your view on the following. I now think that the error in ammunition for kisho ninja does not rest with the Hattori and Tokugawa units but with the base unit. I believe that all of these should have 2 ammunition, and the value of 11 for the original base unit was in error. My reasoning goes as follows: The kisho ninja is, ostensibly, a stealth unit. It can move undetected, it can move faster, climb faster, has a very effective charge and is accomplished in melee. Yet it can do all these things while carrying more fire bombs (11 vs 10) than a unit whose sole raison d'etre is to lug around and throw as many fire bombs as they can carry. This does not sit right with me. Fire bomb throwers typically stand behind the melee line, lobbing grenades into the mix until they are out of ammunition. Kisho ninja are a precision weapon that uses stealth to get to a position from which it can launch a surprise attack against a high value target. They strike (whether with fire bomb, or a melee attack) and withdraw. They should not be used to stand throwing multiple fire bombs at a target - that is the role of the fire bomb thrower. So I now play with the ammunition for the kisho ninja reduced to 2 fire bombs for all kisho ninja. For sure, it reduces the effectiveness of the unit but, at the same time, gives greater utility to the otherwise fairly useless, fire bomb thrower. As I say, I'd appreciate your view on this. Keep up the good content.

[@chyguy3776]

Just gave me a thought. What if you used that hit and run tactic in an ambush and then plunging wedged cavalry into that chaotic mass?

[@NiskaMagnusson]

problem is how much micro they need, they are wonderful to have fun with, but when you're on a hard battle and you're managing sometimes two armies at once the last thing you want to do is mess around with 60 ninja

[@a_goblin22]

i used the kisho ninja quite alot, i find them fun :) hojo hand mortars are like unusable for kills without mods but i use them to try get the enemy to move off a hill or charge at me like madmen , good video regardless

[@timatheivonhabsburg2345]

I looked at a lot of your videos and I appreciate the content very good videos thank you. Also I want to recommend a game called wargame: Red dragon as I think you would like the flexibility and unit variety in the game.

[@danielblom391]

In FotS these guys would also be amazing to flank siege defenders and take out artillery when you're the attacking side. I'll try to get a unit of kisho in every army from now on, it just looks more fun to play around with

[@lukaskovac6778]

@Volound Do You plan to do video with "Thronnes of Brittania" ? What do You think about that game?

[@XiangYu94]

Everytime I make a move for the Shogunate, I always have a reinforcement stack of 20 kisho ninja units that I use as my “initial suicide volley” where I just throw them at the Ashikaga daimyo. Most of them don’t make it alive (which is good because of their upkeep), but those who do are key in buying time for my Yari’s and Bows to make it to the first level and give my whole army a beachhead in Kyoto

[@timbow1833]

without knowing how they work, i can assume one could use them as distraction then run away in stealth repeatedly, or simply sneak upon artillery etc

[@serathaevistille995]

While I get they're a bit of a meme, at least from what I've in videos and the like. I had my first experience with European Cannons in Shogun 2 yesterday. The opening volley barrelled through two lines of enemy troops, into the General at the back of the army, and both killed the General and routed his unit, or what was left of it, being like 2 dudes. I laughed and snickered a lot at that and man, it felt so good. For that alone, I will continue to bring them for fun, I want them to surprise me in the best ways again. As I had gone into that battle expecting nothing from them. Other than that, granted, they killed very little. But that assassination alone made them worthwhile.

[@UntiltedName]

i was using 5 fire rockets + 8 to10 kisho ninjas + melee units to defend castles for a while. It was highly effective and armies usually shattered by the time they started climbing the outer wall. It was kind of a boneheaded strategy because I put kisho ninjas and rockets on the front wall alternating without much further thought. Some forts it worked better on than others.

[@voltaireinc86]

Saw a video ages ago from HeirofCarthage where he used ninja in an online battle. He knew that most players put their general unit in the middle of their army. He vanguard deployed the ninja roughly in the middle of the map and sure enough as the battle started he absolutely bushwhacked the enemy general in the opening move. It was a suicide by the ninja but it won the battle. It was just interesting to see that because before seeing that I thought they were an incredibly expensive unit with limited utility. To see them used like that was so unexpected.

[@teobaldol.7906]

I would really like Volund to continue his Hattori campaign. That was supreme content. Keep going!

[@Volound]

it will be finished.

[@mazdrpan4099]

I would say its the unstoppable Mounted Crossbowmen of Medieval 2. And Pikemen Militia.

[@levinforever5086]

10 minute in and u can see this is good video

[@shapeflesh4589]

Wouldn't that charge into the scattered samurai work better with a general giving all cavalry the wedge formation?

[@Volound]

interesting, ill have to try it. ive never had good results with wedge but that could help.

[@ahumanlookingraccoon8147]

It allows for more cavalry to hit more men instead of the back line of the cavalry getting bogged down trying to go around or through the cavalry ahead of them and into the enemy units, really good.

[@RG-hx8uc]

Based on my knowledge, killing in shogun 2 is chance based. The higher the difference between attacker attack and defender defend+ armour, the more likely we can trigger killing animation. However when the attacking animation is being done on a defender that is not facing the animation, the defender defend parameter got debuffed, hence defender is more likely being killed due to bigger stats different. Loose formation creates vacancy of vulnerable spots since sides and back of individual unit is not being occupied by adjacent unit like in close formation. However wedge formation is abit counter productive. When Charging loose formation unit, the tip of wedge will make contact with one of defender units and starting doing its attacking animation( it will stop at current position while performimg animation). Same situation will repeat for 2nd layer. Hence you can imagine the whole situation where the outer layer actually is blocking the inner layer from making contact with defender units. Hence wedge formation actually is less effiecient in charging since only the first few layers will succesfully peform their charging animations. I think charging without wedge formation will be better on loose formation target since loose formation means your target has more vulnerable spots open, hence your charging animation has higher chances of killing since there are higher chances that your horses are on favourable spot when the charging animation is being triggered.

[@Toshiro_Mifune]

this channel: the most underappreciated unit in total war shogun 2. me, with a 41unit army consisting of a general and 40 KN: i beg your pardon?

[@rikrishshrestha5421]

plz can u tell why does minimap not showin, ? I know i had it when i first few matches but later , it stopped showin

[@animalxINSTINCT89]

I just started an Oda playthru and I'm using Kisho as siege specialists. I might be wrong, but I don't think they sustain casualties from falling while scaling walls. So I keep them stealthed as long as possible then use them to climb straight to the top tier of a castle im attacking. Usually enemies will flood the lower tiers once I attack the walls so my Kisho are free to take the upper tier and rain bombs down on enemies fighting my ashigaru on the lower level, not to mention clean up units that have routed and are running back to the upper tier, preventing them from rallying

[@tobbi1983]

What are you talking about? Ninjas? Rockets? Honorless, I say!

[@ianlim3560]

I dont think that they katana samurai stop before the charge, but switch to loose formation

[@StigEtDump]

I routinely fail in my campaigns because of my obsession with getting guns and no Xtianity, but, as you say, rockets are fantastic, and guns are great for defending forts. Had no idea their was a ninja patch,. happy days. Love to have a ninja in a large stack for that odd time you can assasinate a general. Looking forward to your Hattori videos, is a hard faction but also my favorite, kisho ftw.

[@Rucka_Inc.]

"Come back when you're a little more 10:42 richer."

[@wreckedANDhazed]

back in the day in a 2v2 against strong players I took out both of their generals with 2 ninjas that i snuck in behind. First one was from bomb throws and the second was from luck in melee when his melee general got unlucky. They were very unhappy.

[@rizalalbar]

I use kisho ninja on the flank. To help melee unit by throwing smoke bombs from flank side before both of my unit and enemy unit clashed.

[@redtsun67]

Ah yes, I remember my first time building a kisho ninja "doomstack". I built it more for rule of cool rather than tactical use. I didn't even put a general in the army because I wanted to be ninjas only. First battle went horribly; I charged them into the enemy head on and duked it out. Won the battle but lost half my army. I was such a dumbass lmfao

[@antoniotubik]

Познавательно. Interest experience, thanks.

[@Volound]

spasibo 💪

[@SpielkindFR]

Gotta follow up that Ninja charge with another unit. Yari wall or Katana sam, and then pull the Kisho Ninja out.

[@blazethefox1621]

the general vibe of the video can be summed up with "this unit has the potential to be extremely devastating but it's unreliable due to needing to be micromanaged and being a little bit buggy"

[@tf2664]

Kisho ninja is an interesting one

[@user-zv6xz1br7g]

In the Fall of samurais i had sige of the city at the coast. I got like 1 full stack of troops and couple full fleets. ai got 1 full stack in city and 1 full stack outside. I'm placed 2 machine guns on different sides of the city, just for better covering, and placed artillery on position near one mg, and troops behind artillery... At this point I'm forgot where second army of ai should emerge. And it happens that they appear right behind lone mg. And there is entire map far to nearest unit. And miracle happend -enemy stack just go for my main forces, so my mg get best flanking ability. I'm turn on direct control and obliterate couple units within seconds, AI broke frontline and units blend in giant mob. I'm requested ships volley... Next couple minutes was straight from Apocalypse Now movie, thunder, blood, machineguns blasting, explosion everywhere... Only one enemy unit managed to escape this hell... Just to be shredded by carabiniers.

[@richardbanks6637]

Your videos are brilliant. I've been trying to win Hattori on Legendary in one got for a while now and this might well help. I know I can win against 3 Ashigaru units in a seige with 45 Samurai Retainers so if these guys are the same size and can skillfully rout a unit of 120 equivalent without the Fort and I normally end up with one for free in the early-middle game it might give some key value to getting the right foothold. Definitely a shame about the stats but if I were to patch it I'd always have to say I'd done what I felt was the hardest campaign (using a patch).

[@richardbanks6637]

Update: Have managed to crack Legendary with Hattori using a balanced strategy. Knowledge of the Ninja unit from here was a part of it though. Typically my non-exceptional play style will go: engage the frontline, check everything is in order with it (general radius etc.), bring in Kisho ninjas to the flank where more pressure is applied, use them to break a unit and roll up the flank like a carpet. I find this is more secure than relying on Cav but they'd be a follow-up or secondary option. If this doesn't work and things get more messy then they serve as an excellent versatile esp. for if a unit or two breaks through to a general / archers, and I find I'm less prone to lose a whole unit than a unit of cav. More than once an enemy general or Yari unit has got through and all you have to do is Stealth, engage and the panic is over. In the later game though having boosted warrior monk units also made a significant difference. I'd say the Naginata Warrior Monk is very underrated too. A lot of great players presume people know how good they are but Warcry with them can just dissolve a large frontline when timed right. Thanks

[@richardbanks6637]

There are occasions where the tiny unit size comes in as a plus. The can AI can leave a narrow gaps in the line while dealing with pressure on sides you can fit Kisho Ninja could through. I was able to successfully send a unit through the centre of a large army and win the battle from it once. Compare this to having a Yari Ash. or cavalry in that position, where even trying would be a massive risk and probably fail.

[@richardbanks6637]

Small unit size makes them more able to move around and manipulate. Long story short, amazing unit especially for tipping the balance of spear-based clashes.

[@krzysztofkaruzo6899]

I had no idea stealth ability boosts their stats and prevents counter charge I usualy used them for blind grenades and regular grenades or eventualy to take the walls of a fortress or something

[@kiriko9370]

When shogun 3 happens, these guys should have parthian shot lol

[@christianriddler5063]

I hope shogun 3 never happens because CA today is absolute trash and they would make it into garbage. Shogun 2 is all we need.

[@jaystrickland4151]

Some of my best victories have been units of Kisho ninja charging into monk archers after my opponent has committed everything.

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

Oh wow...I've been using these all wrong. How are the Hanzo's Shadows?

[@Volound]

theyre very similar, just more formidable in the melee. you can push them a bit harder. they can bomb faster too, higher reload.

[@hidesan7794]

I used to spam them in my armies lol at first it was cause it looked cool, then i seen the potential and got addicted to power.... pair them with a good cav and they are crazy

[@pikie1011]

When this game first came out there was a guy at the top of the leaderboards who only used these units. I was in the top 500 in the year the game came out and played against this guy twice. The second time I guessed he might use the same tactic but I could not figure out how to beat an opponent I could see and he focused down my counters (katana cav) and then caused a chain rout.

[@Slyzors]

as someone who always loved this unit I'm very happy to find someone showing off just how good it can be to the masses for a full 30 minutes... also pretty sure the reason they take forever to shoot the 2nd volley is because they have to "reload". Sure is a shame we haven't gotten a total war release since 2012

[@LOKSTED]

Ninja actually have stealth technology that makes them invisible right in front of enemies

[@notanonymous3976]

i love using ninjas against modern armies in multiplayer. their bombs are horrible against enemy generals for some reason though. managed to waste an entire volley on 2 horses

[@korean_communist9116]

I like how they are in broad daylight

[@dalleme5656]

I think the greatest strength of kisho ninja is that your enemy needs to constantly keep track of them, they can't just send cavalry out to charge them and then move on to something else because the stealth ability, even if they're only hidden for a split second anything charging them with stop in their tracks and they're left wide open.

[@wanderingpine4297]

My favorite multi-purpose underrated unit would have to be the Sabadar Militia from M2TW. As an archer-infantry hybrid, it's like getting 2 units in 1. However, unlike other hybrid archer-inf, their melee weapons are armour piercing axes. Combined with the other great units in the Timurid roster(which having archer-inf hybrids gives you more room for), you can have one very versatile army with tools to counter anything and to be used in any situation. It's why the Timurids are my favorite faction and the one I go to in multiplayer.

[@isaiahloranger8662]

Something I like to do with kisho ninja is abuse the hell out of their quick climbing. I'll get the enemy (Typically works mp) to over extend on one side or both then i'll send up 2 kisho and one Hanzo's shadows up the wall as quickly as I can with their stealth ability. When they reach the top they typically have enough stealth left to run and begin to capture gates, if I get lucky the enemy does not notice until I am capturing the point. so while the enemy is panicking to get their units back to the top layer of walls I am pushing really hard and throwing bombs down as much as I can. One time while using this strat I captured the point and won, while other times I can typically bring a victory if the enemy is panicking while I apply pressure with my forces essentially trapping the enemy in their own walls into ground meat

[@ReviveHF]

Scout Equites from ATW and Ji Militia from 3KTW are pretty underrated as well. In ATW, Scout Equites are the game changer if you have the chance to outflank the enemy infantries. While in 3KTW Ji Militia when highly experienced and led by Sentinels are highly effective against top tier enemy cavalry units.

[@gauthiergimbert6614]

The micro though... you're basically turning your game into a MOBA.

[@Volound]

games are there to be played. action over inaction.

[@SallinKari]

Honestly, I use Kisho ninja as actually viable firebomb throwers, particularly with attacking settlements as it's so hard to actually approach with them and not just instantly get murdered before you can even attempt to bomb. A Kisho ninja team attacking from an unexpected direction can really help in sieges.

[@varvarith3090]

Kind of like grenadiers in TW - first volley, close distance, grenades, melle charge.

[@Sanvone]

Kisho ninja are definition of glass cannon in S2TW. Micro intensive and requires perfect micro to make most of them. I like them as support unit adding flexibility to my armies. Both kinds of grenades are more of a disruption - regular nades break unit cohesion making your yari walls better (works also for Fire Bomb Throwers) and forces enemy to break out of their Yari Walls or risk getting rekt / blinding grenades not only can affect few units at once but also if you have better quality units than enemy debuffing all is beneficial as S2TW combat engine favours differences on lower numbers more than the same difference on higher values. Cycle charging is also fun. Campaign wise you can opt for Ninja Fortress branch of Ninja Traditions region resource to get +5 experience chevrons which buffs them even further and grants valuable fatigue reduction. They are also unique in the way that they benefit from all the experience bonuses unlike other units. Just keep churning them and merging and you will have highly vetted ninjas in no time. One problem with Ninjas frontlines is their relatively low armor which wrecks them against highly leveled archers spam that AI sometimes fields. Even giving them goldem armor doesn't completely fix this problem because of their relatively small unit size.

[@kolpere1625]

Matchlocks + ninjas. everyone in one side of the bush. Let them come, until fire range. Matchlocks with FBR shoot the first 1/2 ranks, ninjas behinf the matchlocks shoot their smoke and ballistic bombs (5 units, 3 smoke, 2 normal), after the first round of the bombs, charge after that. Add tetsubo hero for warcry ability and stack 2 debuffs while matchlocks are applying moral debuff. Watch and see hoy they are routing after 7 seconds of battle lol.

[@Rent0kill]

Everyone gangsta until the ashigaru form a yari wall.

[@DaroriDerEinzige]

Before Fall of the Samurai - A friend and me dominated nearly every 2vs2 Battle with a simple tactic; We put our troops together - Mostly Vets pushed on Moral+Charge in my half + a few good Cav Units (Anti Cav mostly) and Firerockets, he had Ninjas, a few Nodachis and Katana Cav which he hid somewhere. With the Firerockets, you could easily force everybody to attack you -> If they attack, he activated the Ninja Bombs and we charged in at once while I directed the fire rockets at the enemy cav (Best resultats always occured when the others tried to charge with their Cav frontally or were too inactive an lost one or even both Generals) -> while I mainly were focused on the main battle line then and to cover the flanks with the Anti Cav-Cav, he led his Kat-Cav around and charged in the back of the Enemy. If the other Team didn't realized that fast enough, you broke the Moral of the their troops in under five minutes.

[@GeeNo_]

Hattori campaign return hyyype! That turn 1 kyoto was still one of the craziest things I've seen in Shogun 2.

[@firstlast5454]

Too bad CA never patched hattori ninjas. Mods fix it though

[@walternelson2687]

Wait a tick, they can charge *while* stealthed? Well that makes things interesting.

[@Peatingtune]

If you go by most people on the Internet, Shogun 2 is more like Yari Ashigaru: The Game. I've never seen where the fun comes from when you're fielding stack after stack of cheap, throwaway troops, so I appreciate "forgotten" units like kisho ninja, bow ki etc. Great assets and fun to use.