The mystery box problem in fantasy tv

I've been talking too much about tv recently and so now am rethinking about Wheel of Time and Rings of Power (again) (sorry). Just some musings on plot twists, mystery boxes, and good writing in general. Tell me your thoughts below!
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[@amysteriousviewer3772]

I think the difference between a „mystery“ and a „mystery box“ is that a mystery adds to the story while a mystery box distracts from it. All stories will and probably should have some mysteries but they should not be the entire main focus and the only way to create tension and suspense.

[@Bookborn]

Exactly! If a mystery is the point, then you can really focus on it being good - it’s an important element of the plot. A box feels more like a last minute attempt for interest

[@LightningRaven42]

That's it. Mystery Box stories, the bad ones at least, tend to rely solely on the "mystery box" aspect and have very little else besides it in its story. It is one of those things that can only be experienced once because knowing the plot ruins the experience, which is what's the opposite of great books and great TV shows offer. That's why some stories are classics and others are not. They're deep and complex enough that you get something new everything you re-experience it.

[@thecrispymaster]

I think the name gives it away. Where a mystery in a Mystery story is something woven into the plot and it unravels as the plot proceeds (making it as much about the journey as the destination), the Mystery Box simply presents the question "what's in the box" and has the viewer try to guess the answer as they're watching. It is to mystery storytelling what Bilbo Baggins' "what have I got in my pocket" is to riddles.

[@MrJero85]

​​@TonyB2279 A mystery box show is when there is an underlying mystery that can be puzzled out. The X-Files, Lost, and Westworld are all examples.

[@myepictbr6968]

I think you are so right about the “show vs viewer” mindset. So many things start making sense if you look at creative content from this angle. It’s like what really matters is not the viewers’ enjoyment but the creators’ egos.

[@charleshills1408]

Your comment on being a good DM is so spot on. A DM has to realize early on that no matter what they plan, they are making something enjoyable for their players... and if they don't, they won't be DMing long. Too often in the adaptations, I have noticed that the show runners seem to look at it as "their" enjoyment and showing how "crafty" they can be and how they can rewrite the story better. Your point on Tolkien and the Lord of the Rings hit it on the head. The story itself is immensely powerful and has a huge following. Just telling the story for the massive audience out there would be huge, but instead they wanted to "create" their own story with their own twists and turns (that were wholly unneeded). The Lord of the Rings trilogy did a fantastic job of running that gauntlet very well

[@NonAnonD]

we just not gonna talk about the awesome style switch up? o ok

[@Bookborn]

Who knew a side part would cause a stir 😂

[@deedit4666]

Yeah. That hair in her face makes the hairstyle unironically look so relaxed. Kind of like a calm day at home relaxed.

[@genghisgalahad8465]

​@Bookborn, it's cool. It feels like you have in the background a smoldering corpse of a thunderclast with your sword planted in its skull. Keep it!

[@JustScrapHD]

@@deedit4666 Its the opposite for me. It creates a strong urge to move that strain of hair to the side

[@gffg387]

@@Bookborn super cute. really suits you.

[@OverthinkingConde]

The problem is the same as with any other storytelling device: applying it like it is a "proven recipe to success" and/or an item to check in order to get people to read/watch the thing, instead of using it if it makes sense to use it

[@Bookborn]

Exactly. And that just wraps around to good storytelling technique. You need to know and believe in the story you want to tell...without throwing random stuff at it that doesn't make sense.

[@f_f_f_8142]

I think it is mostly just a question of setup matching payoff or as Sanderson calls it "promises". When you set up a mystery box you promise the audience a satisfying payoff. A plot twist was not promised so you can not really underdeliver. They can feel out of place and weird but not like the work tricked you (or tried to trick you) into being invested in some meaningless question.

[@Bookborn]

I realllly like this distinction. You're not looking for a satisfying payoff if it's a twist. The twist may not work, but perhaps it feels less cheap (depending on how it's done).

[@BrianBell7]

I legit have never heard the term "mystery box" until this video. I"m glad I know it now! Apparently, I've been living in one.

[@Bookborn]

lol 🤣🤣

[@thedpshow]

100% agree with your theory about Lost. Even if not for the reason that viewers guessed their biggest reveals too soon, the writers almost certainly changed their main objectives once if not twice during the course of the show. Maybe it was only the network telling them to stretch the story out farther... but it seemed like more than just that to me.

[@Bookborn]

It's also why I prefer shorter shows, *especially* if they are tightly plotted. I always wonder if Lost was say...four seasons, if that would've helped. IDK, Maybe Abrahms just didn't have any answers regardless lol

[@radagast83]

I also think that had Lost not worked out past it's initial ~13/14 episode run (prior to a full season renewal), that the entire thing would have likely been a dream that Walt had concocted in-flight. The first few episodes really push this, and the last episode would have been "Special", which really lays hard on Walt's imagination. That would have given the show an easy out for the finale had it failed. Obviously that's just all my own opinion, but it seems to track. I don't mind fantastical/mystical "mysteries" not being fully explained. Season 1's smoke monster and the appearance of dead people and other visions on the Island are examples where we don't *need* an answer, but when something draws closer to reality, there's a need for logic and consistency that I feel were often ignored later on. There's a lot of good worldbuilding in the show, especially with how interconnected the characters lives were from before the crash, but just about everything they wrote about the Dharm Initiative was mystery, mystery, mystery. Often the mystery was a mystery without a planned resolution. Cuts to the orientation films, Pearl Station reports just ending up in the middle of a field, the year the purge happened, the "Incident" happening in 1977, before the station was even constructed (did it go dormant until a second Incident?). There's 15 years of fan pretzel logic and hand waving to make some of this work, which wouldn't have been needed had the writers just mapped some of this better. Between seasons 2 and 3 (and then with the large break they had after the first few season 3 episodes) helped them map out some of the rest of the show, but season 6 in particular is still a complete mess to me. The on-island content is mostly the cast walking from place to place, while the rest of the season relies heavily on tricking the audience into thinking that the "Flash sideways" stories are set in an alternate universe. What happens with Desmond in "Happily Ever After" doesn't make a lick of sense if he somehow slid into the afterlife. The "experiment" by Widmore doesn't make any sense either in that context. In re-watches, I found that the content in the season opener and then the finale probably would have been sufficient for the "sideways" storyline, and they could have focused on wrapping up the living characters storylines on the Island.

[@wiltshirespur95]

I think the particular problem with it in Rings of Power is it's just very un-Tolkien. Tolkien would never mystery box, he'd open the box right in front of you and deliver a long passage about its lineage and history, perhaps with a song about its deeds as an accompaniment. Basing your supposedly Tolkien adapted show around this style already distances you from his work and world from the off.

[@Bookborn]

You're right, but "he'd open the box right in front of you and deliver a long passage about its lineage and history" is SENDING me. so true. So Tolkien.

[@hawkname1234]

Oh, almighty saint Tolkien would never use a mystery box? Great. Tell me - what is Tom Bombadil?

[@wiltshirespur95]

@@hawkname1234 he's a merry fellow. Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow!

[@cncoo2001]

Tom Bombadil is Goldberry’s husband. No mystery there.

[@DreamyAileen]

@@hawkname1234 Tom Bombadil is the exception that proves the rule

[@Hellsing7747]

Knowing the plot twist before it happens, it's not a problem as long as the story is good.

[@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t]

And especially if the show executes the twist well. Book readers knew what was coming in Rains of Castamere, but it was done well and still hit home.

[@thatsci-firogue]

J.J Abrams' favourite thing.

[@nont18411]

“A good question, for another time.”

[@Bookborn]

Hes' sooo good at coming up with interesting things, why isn't he as good at answering them 😭

[@SethPlato01]

After slow motion... and director cuts

[@horrendus]

Ohh I just remembered a good plot twist that held up even on rewatch: Peter in Fringe

[@benjaminwinfrey7727]

@@Bookbornhe never even finished the story. He bolts before he finished a trilogy or a franchise. Star Wars, Star Trek, etc.

[@manomancan]

Just in time for lunch time viewing, thanks Bookborn! Awesome haircut too - took me a minute to understand that it was a new video and not KZbin recommending some super old videos haha

[@Bookborn]

Haha haircut is from back in May actually! I just switched up where I parted my hair lol!

[@line4169]

Is no one gonna probably mention of how Attack On Titan might be the greatest example of delivering payoffs to mystery box in fantasy setting, in my opinion it is the quintessential mystery box whose height no show would dare even match

[@samforsyth]

Don't EVEN get me started on LOST (perhaps my favorite TV series of all time)... But as for RoP -- yeah even though i'm enjoying Rings of Power, when the big Sauron reveal happened I was like... "huh? it felt like they didn't lay any groundwork for that. Great video all around, great insight as always.

[@hawkname1234]

Huh? Didn't lay any groundwork? All of Season 1's theme was "Who is Sauron?" It's most of what people talked about.

[@samforsyth]

@@hawkname1234 yeah that’s different from it making any sense.

[@boromirstark9]

I love when you talk about flexible topics like this, and even moreso I love when you use examples to make your point. Highlighting the unique and distinct nature of audio-visual media compared to a reading experience is fascinating. In many ways, they almost seem like opposites to the brain. So many things that translate well on paper but simply don’t on a screen. This is equally true visa versa.

[@patty4349]

In WOT, my sister, my husband, and my kid (none of whom had read the books) picked Rand after the first or second episode.

[@denglongfist4270]

There was a twitter poll on who the audience thought it was the dragon. Rand won with 96%. One of the responses was that they thought it was Rand because he did not do anything interesting on the show

[@hawkname1234]

Yeah... WoT adaptation is really not very good.

[@The_Open_Book]

Great points narrowing down on the difference between mystery box and plot twist, and why sometimes it works while in others the marketing can just ruin it too!

[@tonymunoz]

I found out about 5 years ago that my girlfriend has never seen the 6th sense and didn't know what it was about. Seeing her reaction to the twist was so satisfying.

[@genghisgalahad8465]

What about the first 5? Plead the 5th?

[@xaisies]

One of my favorite twists in the Cosmere is in Warbreaker - where a certain very evil character TOLD us he was evil the entire time. And we, and another character, didn't listen. I think why it was so effective is that both the reader and the other character don't know its a mystery or a twist until it happens. We are looking somehwere else. Where it seems to break down is when the book or show bangs us over the head with "Look at this mystery" and the writing just never sells why anybody should care. Rings of Power is a great example of this. It is so busy *trying* it never *does*. Does the mystery of who Sauron is have any effect on anyone, including the watcher?

[@Bookborn]

That last line is absolutely devastating but so true!! Why should the viewer CARE?! Again, it would’ve almost been more interesting if we knew and saw the affect on Galadriel - but the characters weren’t interesting enough for us to worry about that reaction.

[@hockey1973]

"One of my favorite twists in the Cosmere is in Warbreaker - where a certain very evil character TOLD us he was evil the entire time."

[@annieprunsky7387]

This!! Said character was one of my favorites my first read I loved the “humor” and did not see it coming! On reread I was baffled that I didn’t catch the creepy vibes - so well done.

[@1m1s]

Have you seen the Netflix show Dark? The writers of that show are big fans of Lost, and they wrote Dark as 'Lost done right'. And man did they succeed. For every single crazy thing there is a satisfactory explanation, most of the time just 2 or 3 episodes later. And they nailed the finale. I think Lost fans should very likely enjoy Dark.

[@manomancan]

heard great, similar things!

[@hawkname1234]

That tells me that they definitely and specifically did NOT use mystery boxes-which is to say, the writers knew what the answers were to any mysteries they created.

[@Zechree]

My favorite kind of videos are reading vlogs and book reviews but I always have to applaud the Amount of thought and overall effort you put into these kinds of videos

[@hawkname1234]

She is not using an accurate definition of "mystery box" in a video about mystery boxes.

[@ThumbMerrilin]

The irony with WoT is there is plenty of mysteries in the first book/first season. What is the Wheel of Time itself? What was the Age of Legends? What is the Dark One? What (not who) is the Dragon Reborn? What are the Aes Sedai, and what are their motives? Can the TR kids trust Moiraine? What are the Forsaken? Why did Shadowspawn attack the Two Rivers on Winternight (fully explained by Moiraine in the show before they leave the TR, kept as a mystery that unfolds in the book). So they had plenty of mysteries they could have leaned into in season 1 to keep viewers tuning in as the story unfolded. Instead, they threw out some key EotW book mysteries in episode 1 (one of you is the Dragon Reborn, I'm Moiraine and it was my mission all along to find you here etc) in favour of their badly executed 'WHO is the Dragon Reborn?' mystery box. In other words, they traded what is a far more compelling mystery with far more legs i.e. WHAT is the Dragon Reborn (a mystery that organically unfolds across multiple books/seasons as prophecies are revealed and fulfilled), in favour of a far less interesting and anticlimactic one that was always going to be of only short term use i.e. WHO is the Dragon Reborn. It's a basic failure of storytelling.

[@PonderingsOfPete]

Great topic. I definitely get the “writer/director vs audience” vibe with stuff like RoP and other media, not just fantasy. It feels like an ego thing. They want to confound and surprise the audience so much when there is nothing new under the sun. There feels like there’s an obsession with recapturing the past (reinforced by the number of remakes that studios do), and the glory of all those twists and mystery boxes that were surprising when the medium was young. The industry needs to grow up and actually try to tell good stories (cue Andor and Arcane praise) However, the whole “Hollywood needs to tell better stories” sentiment could also be survivorship bias, as there were plenty of bad movies and tv shows made in the past that have since been forgotten and most of the time, people remember these shows from the early days with rose colored glasses. The styles were different and a lot of the shows and movies that were made back then would fall apart to today’s standards. So to a certain extent, saying “everything was better in the past” is an apples and oranges comparison

[@Bookborn]

Totally agree about survivorship bias - I think the only thing today is that so much MORE is being created, that it FEELS like more of it is worse 🤣 and it could also be because more things are being created in areas I love (like Star Wars) that are so mediocre or bad that it feels worse for me. I wonder if percentage wise the amount of bad content is the same even with the increase lmao

[@PonderingsOfPete]

@@Bookborn apples and oranges, again. What constitutes bad is gonna vary so much that it’ll undercut any meaningful comparison in those percentages

[@Jason.family]

I would actually disagree a bit with the survivorship bias. There is probably some of that, however I think "Hollywood needs to get better at telling stories" The outline of the stories sound fine, but somewhere in the process they get too busy checking boxes, or getting trailers, or just about anything besides the telling of the story. It is the difference of YA novels and adult novels. We have way more media now than before, but because of the ease of making the new medias, they fail at follow through. In the past, they HAD to make sure something was finished, the best it could be, THEN move on. Now they have the option of leaving it half way and rushing on the the next story if they feel that first story will be a bust.

[@FormerlyBlue]

Wow this is a really great question you've raised, and it's brought up so many thoughts for me! If I were to present my own thesis for this topic, I think it would be that for fantasy stories, mystery boxes might actually work BETTER when the answer doesn't matter. [Spoilers for A Game of Thrones, Eye of the World, LOST (I guess?)] So an example that immediately struck me for how mystery boxes have been used WELL in fantasy TV is actually for Game of Thrones. (Now I haven't read AGOT so I don't know how much of this might be different from what's in the book). From episode 1, the show introduces the mystery of who killed Jon Arryn, and almost immediately reveals that it wasn't the Lannisters. This achieves the mystery box goal of getting viewers invested in solving some question about the world, but also accomplishes something equally important: giving an underlying tension to Ned's quest in King's Landing, as you're never sure who might want him dead for pursuing the truth. And when the end of the season rolls around, the interior of the mystery box still hasn't been revealed. It's not until season 3 (or 4?) when you finally learn what actually happened, but by that point the reveal almost feels unimportant because of how the story's progressed. In a way, the "actual" reveal works hand-in-hand with the lesson Ned learns at the end of season 1 that, as far as power and influence are concerned in Westeros, the truth doesn't really matter. He can stand up for the truth all he wants and still get his head chopped off for it. In this way, the mystery box was actually quite successful even though the reveal doesn't matter much for the story because it gets us INVESTED in the world, the main character, and teaches us something critical about how the world works (and one of the main theses of the broader series) along the way: that power is an illusion. In a way, the show kind of took the mystery box it had built throughout season 1 and with Ned's death just smashed it on the ground like "It doesn't matter what's in the box. The truth doesn't rule in this world; power does!" And that was really effective. I also think that LOST did a good job in a similar way of utilizing a mystery box to get viewers invested even though the reveal of what's inside the box doesn't really matter (at least not for the vast majority of the show, which was very good for several seasons). And this is because they used the mysteries of the island as a way of exploring who these characters are. The mystery is kind of just an embodiment of one of my favorite aspects of sci-fi/fantasy as a genre: that we can explore human nature outside the boundaries of what we experience in the real world. In both of these cases, the critical factor was that the mystery box was used as a METHOD of exploring and developing the characters/story. Compare this to the WoT adaptation where it was used as an excuse NOT to develop main characters like Rand because they didn't want to "give away" the reveal of who the dragon was. Mystery boxes can work very well in fantasy, but the cases I can think of as good examples are ones where it was used as a tool, rather than as the focus of the story. And by the time the reveal comes around, we've gotten so invested in the characters and the broader story that the answer to the initial mystery is just one more plot point out of many.

[@Bookborn]

You're analysis of GOT is REALLY interesting and on-point. I haven't seen the show, only read the books (lol) so the structure of the Jon Arryn mystery seems a little different, but you're right in that it's used as a way to let us get to know characters more. And, in the book when it's revealed (book 3 - so a long time as well), you're right in that it's shocking, but you haven't even been thinking about it for a while! There's been so much other stuff! So in that way, like you said, mystery boxes work when they are not the *only* element keeping you invested in a story. LOST is intersting because I think you're right in that the first couple seasons are so strong because all of the mysteries serve to tell us more about the characters (This is fab in season 1 especially - I think about Locke and Charlie and how the mysteries of the island play into their character development). Maybe the problem with LOST, then, is when they started worrying more about the mysteries and now how it influenced their characters to tell a cohesive story.

[@hansimaier01]

Rings of Power decided to make a fantasy show for a target group that's (mostly) not interested in fantasy. It's like making a medieval romance for Harley Davidson fans and truck drivers. Somebody called it "anti-fiction" because it tries to one-up Tolkien (and fails spectacularly). What's even worse, the writers don't have any idea of what medieval life actually looked like. It feels like if you ask any random five people at a medieval festival, they will have better ideas of how to depict a (fantasy) medieval setting. Examples? a) A charging cavalry could never stop its charge because it saw a cage with its prisoner in the last second. It would have ended up in hundreds of horses bumping into each other. b) Mining with a battering ram. It doesn't even require an explanation. Rock is solid. It needs to be scraped off with a pick-axe or similar.

[@bookssongsandothermagic]

Love this video; there's a real problem with TV shows being too concerned about making us guess forever, when some resolve needs to happen peppered through the show. Rings of Power is a show that seems to be wrestling between bringing something new and trying to honour whatever parts of Tolkien they can legally use (I'm not a fan, but that's what it seems to me). So great hearing you talk about Lost - I love that show, despite agreeing with you that it lost it's way by the end - I disliked the whole of the last Season and think the rest of it is some of the best TV has ever produced. I watched it when it came out too, and was so excited to see what was going to happen next - but show creators have to be careful with that - and resolve plots now and again, and well.

[@laioren]

Great perspective. I would never conflate a "mystery" with a "mystery box." Mystery boxes always display that their mystery is "manufactured." The idea is to "push mystery." Not to make an interesting story that makes sense, and then to find a way to make it a mystery. The worst thing that's happened to the last 20 years of contemporary Hollywood storytelling was J.J. Abrams' mystery box cancer. Never let marketers write. They clearly don't understand how causality, humans, or motivation work.

[@pjalexander_author]

Or put another way, there are storytellers, and there are entertainers. I want the storyteller every time. But sadly, it's the entertainer, or marketer as you aptly put it, who usually wins. $$$$$$$$

[@charlesphelps9804]

I love a good mystery box. But like with anything, you need a good story with good characters to support it. When you mentioned the plot twist movie, my mind jumped to The Game with Michael Douglas and Sean Penn. That movie had me second, third and fourth guessing myself as I was processing all of the crazy that was happening. 😆

[@kendershot]

A lot of poorly written shows use the Mystery Box trope to add the illusion of complexity to bad plotting. You mentioned WoT and RoP, I would also add Star Trek Discovery, The Acolyte and too many others. It reminds me of those CW superhero shows where they forced the idea that Secrets = Drama to an absurd level.

[@Bookborn]

Oohhh I didn’t know acolyte had mystery boxes? I waited before watching and the reviews weren’t good enough for me to give it a try

[@kendershot]

@@Bookborn Watch Acolyte if you enjoy well choreographed light saber spectacle. Do not watch it for good plotting, character motivation or storytelling.

[@Alexander-kc8oq]

@@Bookborn I didnt like the show at all, but in this particular case I think the dicussion and debates around it was so infected that the reviews, both positive and negative, dont give you a fair asessment of it´s quality. They reflect too much of the online discourse for you to get any sort of indication if it´s "for you" so to speak. Actually maybe now is a good time to see it for the first time because you´ll be unaffected by the frustratingly dumb discourse.

[@Bookborn]

@@Alexander-kc8oq Oh I never listen to the online discourse - I don't trust it LOL. I listened to a couple friends who watched it and tend to have similar feelings about shows that I do. They told me I'd probably enjoy it but it wouldn't blow me away. I might eventually get around to it, but I Just haven't been watching a lot of TV recently

[@hawkname1234]

Rings of Power is emphatically NOT a mystery box story, because the writers have plotted out all 5 seasons and know the answers. It just has mysteries or suspense. Mystery box is when the WRITERS DO NOT KNOW the truth. Which is why it is such terrible writing.

[@Mightyjordy]

I have an immensely powerful fatherly instinct right now with 2 girl toddlers and it makes me want to find a hair clip and get that strand of hair out of your eye so you can see better

[@Bookborn]

Yes it was also bothering me the entire time I was filming and then watching it on edit - good instincts

[@berlineczka]

I wholeheartedly agree with your take. I would also add another aspect: adding a mistery box reframes the focus of the viewer. In a detective story or a horror understanding who is the baddie is central to the story. Guess it correctly and you have the plot figured out. Another good use of a mystery is when it is driving the plot forward/serves as a motivation for a character. Figuring out the death of Jon Arryn by Ned Stark is a good example of that. And then there are mystery boxes that just add spice to a dish that don't fit together, or when adding the mystery hinders the actual plot. You mentioned Rand being underdeveloped for this reason, and I agree. But it also hampered the plot quite heavily, and prevented the show to properly explain the magic system of WoT, the prophecy and the whole premise. It confused the lore (adding women as potential Dragons makes no sense in this magic system) and will force the show runners to back-pedal some things or rewrite it in the future seasons. It was also detrimental to the atmosphere of the books. Hiding Rand's identity made them omit certain scenes that were some of the best in the first book. Especially the scene of Rand taking his father to the village after the attack and hiding in the forest from a Myrddraal. They cut one of the most terrifying scenes from literature for the sake of their lame mystery. And instead of a scene worthy of "the hobbits hide under the tree from the Nazgûl" fame, we got a "teleport characters to a place where plot needs them" editing take took away all of the dread.

[@vivamortua]

I think the main issue I have with badly done mystery boxes isn't the number or quality of clues, it's the wheel spinning when it comes resolving the mysteries. Unanswered questions can work well if they are asked once, typically at the end of the work, and the audience is left to contemplate their own answer. But if the question is brought up repeatedly, then each time it comes up the audience should either feel that they are getting closer to the answer, or at least that they learn new things about the characters or setting. So for example, in a classic murder mystery, the detective might follow one lead only to find that while they are not the murderer, they have their own interesting secrets and/or their actions at the time of the murder help fill out the context of the larger events surroundng the crime. I do also agree that building up the idea that the answer to a question will be super mind-blowing can make it less satisfying when the answer fails to live up to overinflated expectations. I think Westworld Season 2 would be a good example of this problem.

[@brendanl8390]

I love a good mystery story. A lot of classic mysteries lay the clues on the table and it’s possible to guess the right answer to the mystery with what’s already been presented on screen. Many of these mystery boxes in fantasy are ultimately unsatisfying because they hold us in limbo and stretch out the mystery beyond what’s reasonable and that these stories are not structured to be real mysteries. It just feels like we are dragging out answers for no reason because they are afraid of someone guessing the twist and posting it online. Westworld is the perfect example for me, season 1 was a perfect season of TV, but because some people on Reddit guessed the ending, they made season 2 so absurdly complicated that it was impossible for me (and many others) to follow the story at all. It’s the bad use of the mystery box because it’s mystery for the sake of mystery, mystery to mislead the viewer, and they raise a lot of questions that are not answered, leaving us unsatisfied

[@victor.loschilin]

Was thinking of The Usual Suspects even as I heard "at least 75%…" :)

[@bryanwigmore7224]

Same! But possibly because I knew the twist in The Sixth Sense before I watched it.

[@ViridianForests]

I was thinking Shutter Island hahah

[@NevsBookChannel]

What you said about DMing is so interesting. I’ve always had that approach when DMing but one time I had a player who had only ever played with an adversarial DM and he was just so antagonistic I was like “dude, this is supposed to be fun, not a competition!”

[@denglongfist4270]

Two examples of great twists that I love that stares right in our faces: Metal Gear Solid 1, and Sanderson’s well of Ascension. The mystery is pretty much the same, but we are so engrossed by everything else it is easy to miss

[@andrew1446]

Definitely agree about Wheel of Time Season 1! All the other "suspects" had their own subplots adapted from the novel, but Rand had nothing else since they did not want to reveal his actual storyline until the last minute

[@GentleGiantJason]

I definitely agree is bad writing that messed up the mystery box. RoP only had two choices and one was obviously Gandalf. So I spent the whole series from the first episode that introduces Sauron going: “Sauron wouldn’t do that”, “why would Sauron be wasting his time on this”, “shouldn’t he be off scheming”. In WoT because they didn’t want to make it obvious they didn’t introduce Perrin’s power or tell you anything about Rand. Mat had a nice start and I wonder how it would have developed if COVID hadn’t messed up the last two episodes.

[@hawkname1234]

Rings of Power is NOT a mystery box story. She messed up the definition. A mystery box is when the WRITER DOESN'T KNOW what's in the box. That's why it is almost always terrible, and it is definitely a bad writing device. The writers of Rings of Power have written out 5 seasons of stories. They know the answers to all of the mysteries. It's just normal storytelling suspense.

[@andreassundberg9426]

02:50 I believe that applies to a good mystery box too. The only difference between a good mystery box and a good plot twist are as you say if you know it is there the first time you read/watch the story but both should still be great in a rewatch/reread

[@alexandrebelinge8996]

the suspense of the Jump ! It was killing me ! I love the mystery and not knowing the more convoluted the better, I'm 100% unable to re watch anything now. There's no joy, doesn't keep me engaged. Reading Malazan right now and that is maybe the first time I'll ever re-read something, maybe I'll go Audiobooks because it is a big commitment.

[@NonAnonD]

my theory: they use mystery boxes because they’re a good way to get audiences curious and wanting answers. But they take the lazy way and slack on other aspects or lack the skill to make the mystery compelling even if you guess it

[@Bookborn]

Exactly. You have to go in knowing the mystery box is an important element. If you slap it on… it won’t work most likely

[@victorcates9330]

In a mystery or thriller, you're experiencing the mystery or tension via being located close to the characters. You might see the world through their eyes (and that might be reflected in the camera work) and via their reactions. If you're following a human, then there's probably a more organic flow of information. If there's danger, you might be close enough to hear a character's rasping breath. In a moment of grief, you'd followed them enough to feel their emotions, perhaps. Essentially, I wonder if in moving the camera from 10 feet removed from the character to 100 feet means that the flow of information becomes stilted. If the audience should have a fuller picture, then you might need clumsy solutions to deny them information. If you were following a detective, it makes sense that you have fragments of a narrative with other bits obscured. If the POV is otherwise omniscient then maybe it's an odd fit. And in close up magic, you probably require technique to get the audience's eye to follow your misdirection. You probably have to earn it.

[@ramblingdad7764]

Totally agree. I think if Rings of Power season 1 had taken out the hobbit plot line and instead focused more on developing other characters in other plot lines as other potential Saurons it could have worked and with a few other changes it could have worked a lot better.

[@asdffdsaasdf12345678]

I think mystery boxes are more accurately Ponzi storytelling in which another often larger mystery is used as the payoff for the previous setup that eventually becomes unsatisfying. While the mystery genre feels like the same thing it really isn't because there must be a reasonable answer at the end and its inherent in the promise of the genre. While some mysteries are unsatisfying because they don't give an answer there is still a clear expectation that there will be one. The other problem is as you note with the example of Lost in which writers feel like they need to outsmart the internet. I would say that the better solution here is single-episode mysteries or twists like the Vader reveal in Empire Strikes Back or most mystery series that are episodic. The other thing that is worth noting about the bookshelf mystery genre is the rationalist assumption which is another place where a lot of fantasy stories struggle. The presence of magic is something else they then also have to rationalize for the mystery to work, which is where Sanderson style hard magic generally works better.

[@christianwilson5534]

In the first season of Lost when they weren’t sure whether or not the show was going to be a hit or if they would be renewed for a second season, they definitely set it up that the island could be purgatory as an easy explanation if they didn’t get the chance to continue storytelling. After the first season when the show became very popular, they mapped out the rest of the show and from the second season on its pretty clear that the island is in the “real world” and there is communication with and travel to and from the island. But they still play with that theme going forward because the island is *thematically* a kind of purgatory where the characters die and are reborn and reckon with their past lives.

[@readbykyle3082]

Great video, great points, lots to consider. Still downvoting for Lost slander

[@Bookborn]

I purposefully didn't give you prewarning so that the lost slander would hit the hardest

[@arthurweise2573]

I have all the wheel of time books but have not yet read them. So I decided to watch the Amazon show first, in the first episode I knew it was Rand. It was too obvious to me. Maybe because I read alot of fantasy, I don't know, but of all the characters it had to be him.

[@crimsonraen]

Talking about how guessing a plot twist makes you feel good is everything wrong with the last season of GoT. (Or rather that the producers wanted SO hard to stop people from guessing..) For WoT, my wife knew basically right away that Rand was the dragon. Definitely no mysteries there. :P

[@jaginaiaelectrizs6341]

1:41 - Suspense is a whole genre, too! 😊🤭🤭🤣

[@mrose4]

As someone who was a teenager in the 90s, I am LOVING the side part. And that color green on you: 🔥

[@Bookborn]

I’ve had a side part most my life, I just let gen z bully me into a middle part for a bit ❤️🤣

[@danbongard3226]

I thought that "mystery box" specifically referred to shows including mysteries that have actual significance to the overall plot because not even the writers know what the answer is. In other words, the way all the mysteries in Alias and Lost (or, before them, X-Files) worked. The term seems to have broadened to cover any mystery shoved into a story for short-term attention, though. Like when the show writers for Wheel of Time decided to waste lots of screen time on a "mystery" of who the Dragon Reborn is.

[@MrJero85]

The X-Files sort of works with the story being incoherent because that's the genre of conspiracy theory. Conspiracy theories almost by definition don't make sense. Kennedy getting shot by a rogue communist shooter makes perfect sense. So it's not a conspiracy theory. But the CIA killing their own leader for no reason doesn't make sense, and so it is a conspiracy theory.

[@DrAwesome43]

Rings of Power could have been so much better if Sauron was revealed to the audience, but not to the characters. Would be very dramatic to watch Galadriel unwittingly interact with Suaron. But since we don't know who Sauron is, we couldnt have that experience. Also, maintaining the mystery box really hindered plot/character development. Gandalf couldnt even speak until the last episode, because he needed to remain mysterious.

[@Bookborn]

YESSSS that’s what I’m saying! Then all the tension would be on how her character was developing!

[@genghisgalahad8465]

Yeah, Suaron from Castille was a good way to hide his identity under the suave smooth exterior of a Spanish Prince!

[@hawkname1234]

I just cannot stand the proud ignorance of Rings of Power haters. What you are describing is THE ENTIRETY OF SEASON 2. Season 2 is exactly what you said you wanted. We know who Sauron is, and we watch Celebrimbor "unwittingly interact with Sauron." That's it. That's the story. It's literally what they did. So, are you happy now? Do you like the story? Or are you going to move the goalposts and find a different reason to hate the show? Also, you are using the wrong definition for the word "mystery box." You have been blithely misinformed by a KZbinr. You can and should look up the meanings of words before you use them (though, to be specific, the responsibility is much more of her not to misinform her audience).

[@DrAwesome43]

@@hawkname1234 Relax. Sauron vs. Celebrimbor is absolutely the best part of S2. That doesn't mean I think they are doing it great. And it's not the entirety of S2, there are many other plot lines. Don't blame Bookborn for my ignorance. This isn't the first youtube video I've ever watched about mystery boxes. It's a loosely defined concept. IMO S1 was absolutely a mystery box show because Sauron's identity was the core premise for most of the plot lines. Revealing his identity resolved most of the plot lines.

[@ArustaStarry]

The "we don't want the audience to guess it" is especially problematic for series that tries to stretch the mystery over multiple seasons and/or the older eras of TV where they'd be actively recording shows only a few weeks ahead of airing. Why? Because then showrunners would realize that people figured out the mystery "too early" and add in all sorts of random stuff or even hard-pivot their plot points, simply so that they could retain some mystery.

[@kevadii]

Us original Lost watchers will forever be mistrusting of a mystery box and anything JJ Abrams touches

[@CharlesCraigOfficial]

@@lanestapp2Lindelof (also a lost creator) did Leftovers, Abrams was not attached at all. Abrams’ next show was Fringe which also tended to suffer from Mystery Box Syndrome.

[@laioren]

And side note, yeah, good writers want the reader or players to figure out the reveal before the actual reveal. Preferably seconds before the reveal. George R. R. Martin has a "rule of three" he tries to abide by where he uses escalating hints as to the solutions to different mysteries. And he assumes that by the third, everyone should have gotten it. Additional side note: I always tell people the biggest different between Game of Thrones and ASOIAF is that the former is a political action fantasy show and the latter is a personal mystery series about how the personal creates the political.

[@VinnieMF]

To me the worst recent trend about mysteries in audiovisual media is when they straight up *lie* to the audience. Wheel of Time did it in Season 1, showing us a scene then changing the exact scene when we the big twist came around. That kills any investment I could have in a mystery. Though not fanatsy, Glass Onion also did it. I find it so egregious.

[@CodyPatrick103]

I think Westworld perfectly illustrates both sides of doing a mystery and plot twist correctly and incorrectly. Season 1 was brilliantly written and many people figured out the twists online because the clues were there. For Season 2, the writers were upset that the twists were figured out, so they made unguessable plot twists and really amped up the mystery. They bought in to the idea of writers vs audience and made the show much worse as a result.

[@3nnik]

okayyy new hair style ateee

[@Hellsing7747]

I was a little bit disappointed with the way " Lost" ended. I really hope "From" won't make the same mistakes. "From" has the same writers and creators as "Lost." I highly recommend the show for those who like Stephen King books and horror in general.

[@Fianna1775]

Nice video 👍🏻 If you want a good mystery series, Detective Inspector Gamache is good in my opinion.

[@maniravsadhur8409]

The Wheel of Time doesn't fall apart on the rewatch, that's true: it falls apart when you first watch it, and the idiotic pseudo-mystery is the least of this show's problems.

[@JoelAdamson]

"Mystery box" storytelling has three main problems: 1. The story is constantly avoiding or working its way around revealing the mystery, finding stupid ways to not reveal it. RoP and Wheel of Prime are doing this basically the whole time. 2. The writing is constantly winking at the audience, revealing little member-berries, in order to distract from what the actual story would be if it weren't mystery-boxing. 3. It creates mystery around things that are essential to getting engaged in the story. The Force Awakens is cool the first time because Han Solo and Chewie are coming back, and we're seeing a new setting, a new situation. It doesn't stand up to repeated viewings because we don't know enough about Rey (even by the end!) to really get engaged. We see Rey in her natural habitat, but we don't see her interacting enough with people. This is in contrast to Luke Skywalker, who does everything except hang out with his friends at Tosche Station (this was in the original cut of the movie and they removed it because it was "American Graffiti in space"). A mystery box is too concerned with not giving the audience essential information. A genuine mystery, on the other hand, is only a mystery about a murder. The characters are revealed, well-known, often well-liked people. The identity of the dead body and the murderer are revealed in the process of the story unfolding. Think about it: in many murder mysteries, the identity of the dead person is really not that important. But you know everything you need to know in order to be involved in the story. In order to make sure I'm not doing this in my own writing, I think about the difference this way: a real story is based on a character achieving a goal, with the world (other characters, nature, or the character's psychology) constantly interceding to set up obstacles. A mystery box story is about not knowing who a character is or what they're doing, with the author constantly interceding to stop the reader/viewer from knowing. The mystery box approach is an amateur mistake. It is insanely hard to read, and thus writers get corrected on it really fast in writing groups and workshops. I think M. Night Shyamalyan, JJ Abrams, and his protoges have been good enough at doing lots of other things in film and TV, and thus they've been let off the hook for their writing. Novelists can't get away with it, because it's ALL writing. There's no set design, camerawork, or anything else.

[@davidw7861]

I think a mystery box is worse than an amateur mistake - it's an intentional crutch by someone who is either unwilling to do the work to do something well or not talented enough to do it in a way that feels earned. Sixth Sense proves Shymalayan *can* be a good filmmaker, but he's had a hard time replicating that initial success because he's so focused on there having to be "a twist." JJ Abrams' career seems similar - highly regarded projects early on and now very stale/samey projects that both the public and critics dislike. It's pretty clear to me that the writers for the WoT show were not up to the task they were handed, and that's before they decided to force in their own themes/ideas/characters rather than adapt Robert Jordan's.

[@pjalexander_author]

"It creates mystery around things that are essential to getting engaged in the story." That's precisely it. That should be points 1, 2, and 3... and all the way up to point 100. That's really the core of it, to me.

[@pjalexander_author]

@@davidw7861 💯

[@JoelAdamson]

@@davidw7861 You're right; I'm not exactly saying these people are amateurs. By saying it's an amateur mistake, I'm saying it should be easily caught in a writer's room, by a producer, by BRANDON SANDERSON (it was!), or anybody else reading the script (the writer's wife, maybe). I'm saying I can't get away with such crap because the feedback process for my writing is completely different from theirs. They're surrounded by Yes-Men, whereas I'm dealing with critique partners, people in workshops, and magazine editors, none of whom will put up with such things. I have to make my writing better. The people making a billion dollar show, for some reason, don't.

[@simonrobillard]

George RR Martin once explained it best in an interview: _"You know, if you’ve planned your book that the butler did it, and then you read on the internet someone’s figured out that the butler did it and you suddenly change in midstream and it was the chambermaid who did it, then you screw up the whole book because you’ve got this foreshadowing early on and you’ve got these clues that you’ve planted, now they’re dead ends so you have to introduce other clues and you’re retconning - it’s a mess"_

[@tomblaylock5850]

He's going to do that with fAegon isn't he 😂

[@julianbeath8389]

Demandred lol. Was Mazarin Taim

[@mistersharpe4375]

This is why mysteries are such a dangerous tool to play with, especially over the course of decades and multiple books. Martin’s problem is that he’s relied far too heavily on mysteries but has delayed too long in providing answers. Twelve years ago I might have been pleasantly surprised by something like R+L=J. But now I think that theory is the most boring of all possibilities, would change practically nothing, and wouldn’t justify being kept a mystery at all.

[@tomblaylock5850]

@@mistersharpe4375 My theory besides just being cool having Jon Snow being Rhaegar's son is that it's needed to give Sansa a stronger claim to the throne. She's based on Elizabeth I so she will end up on the throne. Once Daenerys dies, Jon is next along Targ line. His heir would be Sansa. And through her marriage to Tyrion, if Cersei and Tyrion were to die (assuming Tommen+Myrcella are gone like in the show) then Sansa would inherit the claim from Tyrion

[@randomriftvideos]

I think the sanderson has said on the writing excuses podcast that it's not a bad thing to guess a plot twist a few pages before the writer reveals it. But he also said you don't want the twist to be guessed too early on because that's a failure of the author. And you don't want the reader to get to the twist or reveal and think, "There was never any way to guess that." In terms of rings of power, I don't think I watched enough of the trailers to have been wondering who sauron was, but the inconsistent pacing and inconsistent character portrayals pulled me out of the story. I did however finish season 1. In terms of wheel of time, (I could only stomach three books before I was done) I did tune in to the first episode, and the spicing up of all the character relationships instantly pulled me out. The whole two rivers' culture in the books was extremely segregated along male female roles (this is what ultimately made me stop reading, got tired of women crossing their arms under or over their chests...) But that segregation carried a lot of the themes of the book and the magic system. And so, in the first episode , to blatantly ignore the importance of this one element made me tune out and not even try episode two. I think I will pay more attention to mystery boxes in fantasy. I haven't paid enough attention to this emerging fantasy adaptation trope. Great vid as always!

[@greyhive8137]

I'm not sure if he invented the term "Mystery Box" in it's popular form, but my introduction to the concept was a video of JJ Abrams talking about a magic set he bought and never opened. His premise was that as long as he didn't open it, it could be anything and the mystery was more fun than the reality. JJ Abrams is really good at setting up a mystery box (ex. what is the smoke monster in Lost, where did Snoke come from, etc.) The problem is he often sets up the mystery and DOESN'T know what's inside. He's banking on clever writing in the future to figure that out. The Star Wars sequels were famously supposed to be written by 3 separate teams. JJ Abrams presented several of these mystery boxes, left a few threads to give them options. Rian Johnson infamously answered some of the questions in The Last Jedi (ex Rey is nobody). IMHO, if you are going to introduce a mystery box, you've got to know what's inside so that you can seed the clues into the plot in a satisfying way.

[@hockey1973]

12:54. Agreed. It's like so many writers fail to ask themselves the simple question "are the people who are going to watch this ACTUALLY going to enjoy it?"

[@jodyvanderwesthuizen9017]

I think the difference between Wheel of Time and Only Murders, is that the in Only Murders, the mystery is the plot. It's the whole reason the show exists. Whereas with WOT, the mystery box is thrown in on top of the plot. You can also have multiple mystery boxes in a season of TV (see the atrocious Picard show) to keep viewers interested and string them along. A lot of these shows don't have enough story to fill 8 episodes so without sporadic mystery boxes, the viewers would get bored and stop watching.

[@KevinHorecka]

I consider getting the twist a few pages before to be the ideal situation. Those few minutes of "ohhhh myyy..." as you see your prediction come true are the best part of the book to me. If I get it chapters early, it's not as fun. Getting it only when it's spelled out also isn't as satisfying. There's a sweet spot for me.

[@gffg387]

I was thinking about The Sixth Sense... Good call.

[@ScottBatson]

One thing a lot of shows and books over simplify is thinking that the reader/viewer shouldn't know who the villain is. Imagine if you knew Halbrand was Sauron the whole time. The whole season would have been so tense and the "mystery" isn't "who is Sauron" but "will he be caught?" Adding tension and stakes is always the best way to interest the reader/viewer. If you can do that with a mystery box, great. But sometimes the most fun is when I know someone is about to double cross everyone

[@aliciasorenson3807]

My husband and I have actually been loving RoP season 2. It's sooooooo much better! Annatar🙌 Also, we loved the first season of Only Murders in the Building as well!

[@Jay-yr9oi]

I think the biggest difference between a mystery box and a plot twist is that a plot twist is generally about subverting expectation while mystery box is about creating that expectation. I also think the big issue with the mystery box approach with adaptations, as opposed to a show like Only Murderers, is the word adaptation. A lot of the books being adapted weren’t written with that mystery box in mind, and adding them can change the point. An example that really bothered me was WOT implying the dragon could be the girls, when the whole reason the dragon being a man was important was the taint). Tolkien characters, he wasn’t subtle about food and evil, and that doesn’t lend to mystery box. With a show like Lost, where the mystery box written in, it works better because it isn’t being forced

[@Jay-yr9oi]

Also, I find mystery box is more a marketing tool, pushing that speculation to drive conversation, interest, Reddit posts, op-Eds, to drive up hype, while plot twists are more storytelling tools

[@HeavyTopspin]

It was never going to work in WoT, as it's more or less impossible to even do a basic google search without finding a reference to Rand as the Dragon Reborn - or for that matter, hearing the nickname for the series' world of "Randland".

[@Bookborn]

But that’s why I think it would’ve worked as a mystery for the first two episodes! It’s unlikely that those who haven’t read the series (especially fantasy show watchers and not readers) would’ve googled things in the first two episodes. It would’ve been a nice opening perhaps and led to a dramatic event (Rand’s dad in the forest). I agree that stretching it out just made zero sense

[@manband20]

I can think of another great example of how a regular plot twist actually saved an IP and gave it so much room to grow. Just look at one of the biggest IPs in history to see how a simple plot twist can change everything. Dragon Ball was a comedy manga/anime about Goku, a little kid who likes fighting and martial arts and wants to be the very best like no one ever was. It ends with the big evil demon being defeated and the hero riding off to get married. Dragon Ball Z, however, drops the bombshell that Son Goku actually came from a near-extinct alien race in another part of the galaxy and he has a long-lost brother (who we never talk about) and basically all of his people are working for an evil galactic Emperor whose whole schtick is he's based on irl real estate speculators because he goes in and destroy planets to turn them into literal parking lots. No build up to this reveal, no subtle hints about Goku being an alien or his big rival Piccolo being an alien or there even BEING aliens... and besides OG Dragon Ball purists who don't like the change in fighting style, nobody really cares. It just kind happened. But after a decade of the world being full of talking animals and an evil corporation and a dog being King of Earth and one of Goku's companions being a talking pig who likes women's panties and the main villain being a giant green Demon King whose soul got trapped in a rice cooker, everybody being aliens was probably the least far-fetched thing Toriyama could have come up with. Now there's literal gods and it's still as popular as it ever was. Now we have Mexico and Japan engaging in diplomatic wars because Mexican cities want to hold watch parties for the new movies and Japan wants to defend their company by saying that that would be illegal. This dumb little story about a martial artist eight year old grew so big that Mexico and Japan had diplomatic talks break down for a bit. There's still running jokes about how when new Dragon Ball content comes out, the cartels order a national ceasefire. Presidents of western nations sent out condolences when Toriyama died.

[@Cbutton]

I’m an og lost watcher as well my family and I would all watch it. If you ask my mom about lost she says the same thing that the writers changed it once people figured it out.

[@Hellsing7747]

For me, the first plot twist who comes to mind is Vader being Luke's father. I was born in the early 80's . I watched the vhs of " Empire strikes back"so many times 😂

[@Bookborn]

I wouldn’t call it a plot twist movie though - there was so much else going on! But for real that is THE plot twist of all time.

[@Hellsing7747]

​@@Bookborn I can't disagree with that.

[@tedelimon7]

WOW. First time I strongly disagree with one of your takes (the LOST finale). I agree with the rest of the video, btw😂

[@Bookborn]

I think the Lost finale was a band aid. It felt good in the moment, but I don't think it actually wrapped up many (if not most!) of the mysteries presented by the show!

[@pjalexander_author]

@@Bookborn Exactly. I do like the finale, but if you think about it, it's the perfect finale IF the characters WERE IN PURGATORY! Really, that final season did put them in purgatory, which affirms the theory that that was the plan all along :)

[@peterjacoby8019]

Well clearly the problem is having something interesting inside of the box! I think of them as different than plot twists in that they are related to an actual item in the story, sometimes the main McGuffin item of a story, sometimes a different item. As an Anime/Manga guy, I've seen Mystery boxes done well here and there, sometimes its even a literal box, but when done well it doesn't even feel corny. I think a problem for TV is that usually the best thing to put in your mystery box is some kind of lore dump or lore related item/twist that re-contextualized how you saw the story up to that point, but it doesn't necessarily change your current goals, if anything it re-affirms your existing goals before a climactic battle, but TV has way less time compared to a book or long running anime to set up its world and surrounding lore, and its not like its easy to pull off when you have that time in the first place. But for examples of it done well without spoiling anything new, The Diary in the 2nd harry potter book was a solid mystery box I think. It starts in the background blink and you miss it, then its like eh your friends sisters diary, nothing to see here, then people start getting froze and a mystery clearly exists overall, then its a clue in that mystery, then its unveiled and even if you surmised some details along the way there's still enough specific details you want to know of like "hey wait, what just happened?" and its a satisfying reveal. and then with understanding comes power and our characters use what they learn from the big reveal to bring the plot to a close. and honestly even as i describe it i'd say it feels more "boxy" of a mystery in the books because you get to sit with it for a few chapters and harry's like, talkin to it back and forth between class, your not sure if its a joke spell or something serious. In the movies its just like another clue in a mystery that unfolds pretty fast, Its the type of thing when harry shoves it into Lucious's hand at the end your movie only friend goes "what was that book he gave him" Thanks for the show Edit: Am I the only one who thought it was an item? hahahahahaha, I feel like you guys are just talking about bad mysteries, thanks again

[@enlighten92]

2:50 onwards, the corollary is that GRRM knows how to write a solid mystery. He is a master of putting in clues, red herrings, character interactions to set up future payoffs. SPOILER FOR FIRE & BLOOD : GRRM uses epidemics such as the Shivers to plague and kill many Targaryan princes, nobility and small folk. So when Queen Rhaena's (Daughter to Aenys I, widow of Aegon the Uncrowned, rider of Dreamfyre) female companions in Dragonstone die mysteriously, we are led to believe that there is another epidemic in city. But it turns out the killer is Androw Farman who was cleverly set up to be disgruntled and seething to hurt Rhaena and her entourage. Although this is a very minor plot in FIRE & BLOOD, it exemplifies the effect of developing clues, red herrings and character motivations to stay logical.

[@nxsardella]

My main takeaway is there’s always a good reason to rewatch The Sixth Sense!

[@denglongfist4270]

I’m a big fan of Agatha Christie novels, and the twist is always surprising because we do not get all the clues, or the interpretation of said clues. In very few stories, we see the main character as narrator (Poirot narrates a few stories, mostly flashbacks, Sherlock Holmes narrates two, one after he retires)

[@JVDAWG1]

One of the most egregious examples is the mystery of who the "final 5" cylons were in seasons 3 and 4 of Battlestar Galactica, and the reveals made little sense at all since the writers even admitted later they had no plan for who they were revealed to be from the beginning.

[@hawkname1234]

Yup. Unlike the definition given here, that's actual mystery box writing. And that's terrible.

[@Rkcuddles]

Loved the Hyperion series because it doesn’t really try to solve all the mysteries that it creates. The third book starts by saying ‘if you are reading this to learn about the faith of (previous characters) then you are reading for the wrong reason.’ I get to go on fantasizing my own ending to different plot lines and situation. I like that style the best.

[@TonyB2279]

I often think about one of my favorite shows from back in the day, Highlander, and wonder what it would be like if it were made today. In Highlander, the first episode lays out how the Immortals work, etc. In a modern show, we'd probably get that information piecemeal over the course of at least a season. We'd be sitting there for 12 hours going, "Why is this guy carrying a sword around?"

[@m.e.3862]

Mystery box seems to be a byproduct from old TV where the writers had to fill 22 episodes per season. The writers rooms back then were notorious for making it up as they went along. Writer for Lost, Carleton Cuse, even admitted in an interview that they had no idea where the story was going.

[@chriss4001]

My understanding of a mystery box is based on something Preston Jacob said, with Lost as his chief example. That mystery boxes tend to be things the writers don't have an answer to yet themselves. What often makes them bad as a satisfying answer eludes the writers and the reveal is underwhelming or doesn't make sense.

[@nont18411]

Nice new haircut. It took me a few seconds to realize this is a Bookborn video.

[@Bookborn]

I got my haircut back in May haha! But for some reason this video is highlighting it I guess 🤣 so many comments on it!

[@LightningRaven42]

For everyone here interested in seeing the Mystery Box be executed masterfully, you all should check out the amazing TV show Mr. Robot. It's amazing on first watch, it's even better on a rewatch. It's like watching the perfect adaptation of a great sci-fi series, except that there is no source material. It's deep, nuanced, complex and amazingly produced, acted and directed. Personally, I think it's better than Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul, but it's more of a preference thing (Cyberpunk is my jam), but the three are 10/10s for me.

[@briankinsey3339]

If the Wheel of Time wanted to a) make Moraine more of a main character, and see things from her POV, and b) make the identity of the Dragon a mystery, they should have started the series before Emond's field. Show Moraine's search, maybe interacting with the false dragon/Logaine storyline, maybe w/ a flashback to her and Siuan first starting the search 20 years ago. (Showing Gitara's foretelling even might have been cool.) Follow that for an episode, then have her show up in Emond's field. And maybe it takes 2-3 episodes until it becomes clear to her that Rand is probably the one. There was plenty of time to do something like that, rather than the stupid stuff they made up about some random warder that has nothing to do with the actual story. Oh, and start at least the first episode with one of the chapter lead-ins about the prophecy of the dragon, to set the tone for the series.

[@genghisgalahad8465]

Fantasy with a certain piece of...content, making itself out to be junk. The soap opera of television, lesser, run of the mull, pulpy. Glad you hit upon that point early on! Fantasy becoming lesser because of these fanfic shows talked up like they're the real deal contetn, when like you said, we have mysteries and genres with top-notch writing. The poetry of JRR is less a topic of need than the latest abominable ship just because. Which doubly makes me sad that it calls to the desire for plurality that we would wish but delivers it while being so blatantly disrespectfully of established key character lore. You know, if you look at Star Wars and the many indelible contributions to creating a singular character over time, and wven with the clunky dialogue early on, and various iterations of further lore, and uou get the service to this universe, particularly this galaxy! Whereas a certain fanfic goes for faux populist broad appeal to plurality while on the other hand inserting abominable characterizarion and cheap inexplicable fanfic moments.

[@Cychosis]

The plot twist movie I was thinking of was The Usual Suspects, great film and it holds up. I hated the Sixth Sense. I was so bored, that when the twist finally happened my reaction was 'That's nice, is it over?' 🙂

[@michaelbodell7740]

A mystery is different than a mystery box, and the badly applied mystery boxes are usually the JJ Abrams style of mystery box where the mystery box is a McGuffin driving the plot but with no real meaning, just the magic thing everyone is chasing (or twist for no real sake just to "shake things up randomly" - which is what I soured on through Alias pre-lost). What's in the "mystery box" and how the characters develop, deal with the opening of the box, what comes next and the importance of the connections to what is in the mystery box helps make it good. Also, obviously, how approachable and interesting the main characters trying to solve the mystery is (in Only Murders the investigations and actions of the characters are really the main thing of interest not necessarily the mystery itself - and I'd argue only Murder's isn't really a "mystery box" but just a "mystery"). If the opening of the mystery box is the end in and of itself, then it is likely disappointing. In longer running traditional TV series with bad mystery boxes I think it is that they haven't been planned out before and people are writing by the seats of their pants and hence there isn't the setup and payoff that you'd want with a well crafted story. FWIW with the Sixth Sense I saw it when it came out unspoiled but I got the twist right away (fast cut with ambiguity to outcome and in the time jump the character was wearing the same clothes - so I got it for metanarrative reasons) but the movie still mostly worked (although probably not quite as well) knowing that on the first view. I did not pick up the twist of who Keyser Soze was in what is probably the other classic twist movie that some might have been thinking of, and that story doesn't totally work on rewatching (as in if the motivation for the hit was no one knows who Soze was, after the events of the movie more people know who Soze was); however, the movie is still very, very entertaining on rewatching for the narrative clues (and perhaps the stated reason for the hit by Soze was not the real reason, so maybe it still makes sense, tough to know exactly what to take as real of the past events).

[@lircox]

I was actually recently thinking of The Sixth Sense and the plot twist element of it and the exact scene you showed (anniversary at the restaurant). I can't remember specifically what was said about it other than "they don't know they're dead", but doesn't Bruce Willis' character only make sense if he's majorly deluded? Like no one ever talks to him except this little kid for a few weeks before he discovers what he is. Which I realize not knowing you're dead is the definition of delusion, but that's still quite another level. Idk, still a classic movie and you were right on the money with what movie I had in mind when you were talking about plot twists.

[@fr.andygutierrez5356]

I know this doesn’t sound very intelligent, but a plot twist feels really awesome and rewarding, especially when you rewatch/reread, but a mystery box, especially if dragged on too long is incredibly annoying.

[@victor382]

The real mystery is how in the world you had the patience to rewatch those messes. 😂

[@Bookborn]

Haha well i rewatched large portions of them while I grabbed clips for all of my recap vids! So it wasn’t technically a sit down rewatch, but it did help me catch a lot of stuff

[@lanestapp2]

If anyone would like to see a mystery box done at an incredible level, you just have to watch a Damon Lindeloff show. Its called The Leftovers and is incredible. Another great example is The Watchmen series. Also created by Lindeloff. Also Abrams talked about how he wanted to end Lost years before it did and was forced ro keep making it because it was too popular and made roo much money.

[@SuperHighSunday]

My personal definition of “mystery” box has always been that the author themselves don’t actually know the resolution when they set it up… that’s why it’s just a “box of mystery” instead of foreshadowing. The writer can’t set up foreshadowing for their mystery because the only thing they have thought out is that there is a mystery.

[@JuanVargasArts]

I will say I absolutely love Only Murders In the Building and I think the show is not getting the attention it deserves. It’s been a fun ride to watch . Also one of things that turned me off about Wheel of time was that they added a mystery box element to it. Kinda stopped watching it too, but was wondering from the fans if the show gets better in season 2?

[@jag519]

Lost (and even battlestar galactica, though not this did it a bit better) Had a problem with the mystery box imo, because they did not actually plan the answer. I think they had ideas for what it COULD be, but did not actually know what the answer was, and created answers as they go. I think if you plan a mystery box story, you HAVE to know what the answer is, so you can work on how to get a good reveal from the very beginning.

[@watcherofthewest8597]

Mystery box is simply another way of saying I'm going to setup a mystery and not deliver on it. Abrams is the master. Many imitators.

[@shredder11977]

Oh man, how awesome would it be to play dnd with Bookborn

[@OrangeHand]

Damon Lindelof said they wanted to end Lost after three seasons with every mystery wrapped up, the network wanted the show to run indefinitely. I hate how the conflicts between creatives and executives negatively affect projects.