The Myth of the Tortured Artist

[@theartassignment]

TLDR? Our question at the end is: What are the things in life that kindle and support your creativity?

[@rasmusn.e.m1064]

Listening to other people's stories and views always leaves me with some kind of message for them that I can't tell them plainly, so I tend to use those for my stories. Also, hearing other people speak is inspiring for dialogue, obviously xD

[@lorenabpv]

collaboration. while menial tasks and job stuff i rather do by myself because i'm an introvert, working with people i like and admire on creative projects always keeps the accountability i can't keep myself and motivates my ideas

[@randallrohr623]

In all seriousness Kanye West. I feed off of his energy and I feel like we are on the same creative wavelength. I think that it's also the want or need to solve a problem. I approach drawing and painting as if it is a problem I need to solve. What keeps me going is the support of friends and family and my own love for what I am able to create. The pride and high I get after successfully creating a piece is unparalleled. I like sharing what's underneath the surface with the world in hopes that it connects with someone on a primal level. I think we all just want to feel connected and I think art is my way of doing that.

[@michaelcurtis4627]

The Art Assignment it’s weird but when I wake up at 4:30 5:00am and make my bed it sets my day up to be more creative and easier to do more during the day.

[@tanyaserrao6105]

Flow

[@heretustay]

“No one is creative when severely depressed, psychotic, or dead.” I felt that in my bones.

[@riksinha5]

Creativity comes from brain, Art comes from art.

[@fa7al596]

Agreed!! When I was heartbroken, I could hardly crack jokes. My thoughts were muddled and my out of box thinking took sharp turn. I thought I lost my wit forever until I moved cities and found happiness again. Even now, I just can't joke when my mind is muddled with thoughts.

[@NotEvenOverThere]

@@fa7al596 because you’re trying too hard

[@thomasjackson5204]

ye ...so what?? how does this explain anything ??

[@lavamatstudios]

The problem with creative accounting is that it is very, very illegal.

[@klystron2010]

Ha!

[@SEELE-ONE]

So, I have this play I wanna put on Broadway...

[@maltesersnpringles]

@@SEELE-ONE Springtime For Hitler? 🤣🤣🤣

[@nazaninamirimeers6138]

the myth of illegal creative accounting:D

[@hiyalanguages]

Hahahahahahah

[@MykaelJay]

It's not that mental illness makes you creative (though I can definitely say psychosis unlocked a lot of doors to abstract thought for me), I think it's that mental illness drives you to the arts as a way to make meaning out of your suffering. The rest is just experience

[@MrAfroNick]

"mental illness drives you to the arts as a way to make meaning out of your suffering." as well as a way of expressing yourself/soul.

[@sup8437]

My schizophrenia took away my creativity

[@seal6565]

Michael Cameron An unstable mental condition will shut you off from a lot of activities, activities that are important to expend your energy on. Art is an unassuming and non discriminatory activity that everyone can partake in, this is why the ‘tortured artist’ is so fetishized in pop culture, there are no other medium where the masses can witness their psyche and ideas, as a modern consumerist society, we are attracted to scarcity as it portrays something as being higher quality. Art and philosophy is a very welcoming medium to the mentally ill but it isn’t exclusive to them.

[@timw4383]

@@seal6565: ...and artistic ability of all kinds are often developed in childhood long before the onset of any form of mental illness, or before the behavior that influences creativity are triggered by illness.

[@seal6565]

Tim W Accurate statement. Though I want to add on that it isn’t really natural artistic ability that is drilled in childhood but general interest in art(ie your parents interest in music etc) and then later their skills in those interests. I think people on the older stages of life still can develop their taste and skills for art and culture.

[@kylehenderson9489]

I thought creative accountants typically wound up investigated for fraud.

[@theartassignment]

Ok, maybe that wasn't the best example...

[@kylehenderson9489]

True. But I loved the message about mental health and the creative process. Thank you for doing this. I'm sorry to say I sort of fell for that whole tortured artist bull and I'm even a would be artist.

[@connor107]

@@theartassignment Meyer Lansky could probably be considered an artist in how creatively he avoided the same prosecution that brought down Al Capone, although that brings up the idea of "good art, bad person" from a few episodes ago...

[@KristineMaitland]

I can think of one creative accountant... he stopped being an accountant and became an actor - he's in Kim's Convenience.

[@eve36368]

well, to be fair the books by them can also look incoherent too. fair illustration actually

[@shaneharrington3655]

Worth looking at David Lynch who strongly criticizes the myth of the tortured artist. He says it's impossible to work when depressed, which is generally true.

[@maggyfrog]

love david lynch and his art. i don't think he meant that the tortured artist isn't real. only that one doesn't have to suffer for one's art. that's the whole point of his philosophy as an artist. you go to this quiet place in your conscious mind. swim deeper if you want the big fish. he once thought in art school that he had to suffer in order to depict suffering. but when he was introduced to transcendental meditation, he realized it doesn't have to be that way. i think this line of reasoning is a lot better than what the video suggests. being a tortured artist may be a way of getting by, but it just doesn't have to be, and it sure as hell isn't an efficient way to tap one's artistic reservoir.

[@shaneharrington3655]

Maggy Frog yup, right on. That’s what I was insinuating. He was afraid he’d lose his edge, but the opposite happened :-)

[@caitlinrogers8016]

As an artist myself I have found the opposite. Perhaps this is because I use art making as an escape. I have created some of my best work during the time I am the most distressed. I think it really depends of the individual, maybe depression stifles creativity for some people, but not for all.

[@kyrlics6515]

@@caitlinrogers8016 yeah ive made plenty of drawings and art during my 4 year depression. Got out of it 8 months ago i haven't drawn or painted since then. They say 200k cases of depression happen a year in U.S. Now imagine the rest of the world. Ye'dont think at least one person would work through it or make art throughout their depressed days? Go on art platforms where you meet other artist or social media e.g. kik. there are plenty of depressed people on their. A few in the group chats dominantly made for art. You'll find people who do it.

[@kyrlics6515]

Also, yeah im aware some people just say they are depressed but still. It's not impossible or that unlikely to meet someone who does art and has depression.

[@lanternheart]

Thank you for this. As an artist with diagnosed mental illness, it’s often surprisingly hard to tell people that I do (and have done) my best work when in treatment.

[@jamescotter]

Dean Burke Man I must be different, as I do my best work when I'm at my very low points. I mean if the depression gets too bad then I won't even get up or move in my bed...but...the places near that dark well are fertile grounds. I had to stop taking antidepressants and other associated medications because it was severely dulling and numbing my creativity/happiness. I don't know, I'd rather stare back into the abyss and smile than have my mind always in a partly cloudy day. But I want to make clear, that I don't know what you're going through and definitely am not judging what anybody else has to do to live a healthy life...just telling my story.

[@stuartjones2812]

Dean Burke perfectly said. From one artist to another

[@chriscameron9321]

Shh, you can't say that.) it's like saying "I do my best work while high on opiates".

[@marystone1526]

@@chriscameron9321 No, it's not. Antidepressants and the likes don't make you high. They allow your brain to function normally.

[@chriscameron9321]

@@marystone1526 None that I've tried..!

[@Pratchettgaiman]

Being a "creative" accountant has a rather different association....

[@rosieleat6868]

LOL!!

[@JMTgpro]

A billionaire (I do not remember which) once said "Do you want to go to prison? Hire a creative accountant"

[@ethanomcbride]

😂😂 Ya got me there

[@mickeylouisoix5976]

no you're a stupid person if you think that and coping

[@trs_4612]

LOL

[@bbvetromile]

I am reminded of my favorite quote from the film “Arthur” starring Dudley Moore: “Not everyone who drinks is a poet. Most of us drink because we’re not poets.”

[@kyriakabeya1166]

"you are a great artist not because you were tortured but, despite the fact that you were tortured"

[@jessicam2840]

I'm a person with schizoaffective bipolar, and I pursue art as a semi-serious side project. I can report that during depressive phases attempting creativity was like trying to get blood from a stone, but during that time I would absorb inspiration by escapism through the art of others. Getting out of my own headspace and hopping into someone else's is a great escape hatch, and it's so amazing that humans have the ability to share an imaginary space. During manic episodes I would have a lot of ideas and record them, but my most productive time was coming back to them later when I was stabilized and had the coherent focus and patience to flesh them out and follow a technical process, which I don't have the patience to do when I'm manic. I end up discarding a lot of those ideas because I thought they were a lot better than they actually were at the time. It's not all gold. I'll admit, hallucinations and delusions have given me some interesting material. I'm doing a pretty good job at maintaining as a functional adult though, boss and coworkers think I'm a model employee and my friends say I'm so down to earth, none of them suspect how bonkers I am.

[@mollymoon510]

I would argue that people who suffer from mental illness are more likely to find creative pursuits rewarding- meaning that the mental illness does not INCREASE creativity, it merely increases the enjoyment of creative acts, making people more likely to do them on a regular basis.

[@calc2323]

I don't think that's necessarily true either. People who aren't mentally ill enjoy things arguably more easily since there aren't huge barriers to entry like struggling to leave ones' room or having anxiety at the thought of taking a class with a load of people you don't know.

[@maggyfrog]

blanket statements like, "there is no such thing as a tortured artist" or "mental illness does nothing for the artist" are all wrong in that, they don't apply to everyone. some people benefit from sobriety in terms of their art, some people draw inspiration from their dark fantasies or even hallucinations. there are all kinds of people, and there are all kinds of artists. just because one thing doesn't apply to everyone doesn't mean it's not real for some.

[@mollymoon510]

I don't mean that it makes things easier- mental illness definitely makes things harder- Here's an example: as a depressed artist, I find art very fulfilling because I know how difficult it can be to feel happy.

[@Max-nk9xg]

then again, it's likely depression tells you your art isn't good enough and that you should not be satisfied with the rubbish you just made. nothing could be good enough for the inner critic. it really depends on the case.

[@jjboyybrat]

im not sure "regular basis" would be accurate?

[@Mambo1061]

I feel it’s important to also mention how detrimental mania can be-you’re essentially draining all your resources in one concentrated period, and the lack of sleep, sometimes disregard for food, increased irritability and disconnection with reality can lead to dangerous and impulsive behavior. And also as you said, incoherent and unorganized work often results from these episodes-you wouldn’t expect a glorious well planned painting to sprout from an acid trip, bc even abstraction requires logical decision making. Also, I was waiting for you to mention the whole thing about how Van Gogh made most of his masterpieces while in treatment-I feel that’s super important, to recognize that a creative muse can be cultivated through diligence, not some sort of amazing demon you wait to swoop through you on a whim. Practice, study, and networking seem a little less glamorous than the suffering-to-glory narrative but it’s true and it’s healthier in the long run. I’m loving your responses to Nanette, keep up the good work 😁

[@Max-nk9xg]

that's why i try to oppose the people speaking of creativity as a divine gift and overall talent. just like the romantic (era) idea of "genius". it's a way of explaining creativity and its seemingly random "dispersion", but far too many people use it as pretence to not even try making art. and it is somehow comforting to think of art as an equation: "i might not be creative, but in return i'm at least not insane. i'm just not meant to be an artist."

[@stellaluna6421]

I vividly remember when one of my friends could tell a manic episode was coming on and she was really scared because she couldn't afford to wreck her already meager finances but during an episode, all sorts of poor financial choices seemed like great ideas.

[@AMcGrath82]

I had always assumed that the link between art and mental illness was due to the link between artists and poverty. Wealthy artists are rare. Impoverished artists indulging in coping mechanisms must be extremely common.

[@MarkHatlestad]

I think "creative fields" tend to attract people with mental illness as a means of coping, but has little correlation on how well one person performs within that field when suffering from mental illness. However, being able to manage mental illness makes an enormous impact on long-term productivity. Part of what drew me into being an orchestral musician was that it makes me feel connected to others and washes away my anxiety. However, the toil required to pursue it at a professional level is exceptionally nerve-wracking, and I was being met with failure after failure trying to win a job as my anxiety took over my ability to perform and approach my work productively. The period where I started to address my mental health was the time that I made the greatest rate of improvement in my craft, and I was able to finally bring myself to the level to win a full-time job in this field. My symptoms are relatively minor and undiagnosed, but therapy was a godsend that help me get out of the mental rut I had dug myself in.

[@StealingCookiez]

As a full-time student who works to afford school and food, I get depressed when I fail to find the time to put towards my creative passions. Then, if that time ever emerges, the depression stymies any creativity. It's a mess, and I know it's far too common out there.

[@robbiedontmiss]

YES! OMG school and constantly worried about money and tests is so crippling. Sometimes all I can do is lie down in my bed during my free time.

[@madArt1981]

I'm an artist. I have issues with mental illness all my life. It annoys me to hear any comparison to Mr. Van Gogh or how Van Gogh was more a mental patient than an artist or how it's a bad thing.

[@PrincessScrivener]

Yes! It always confounds me that people think depressive periods are worth their weight in gold for artists because it's "prime creativity time." Bless your heart. You think I have the executive function to do any more than shower every few days when my temperament takes a nosedive? HA!

[@PrincessScrivener]

And personally, I'm almost always inspired by new movies or TV shows. I draw most of my ideas and inspiration directly from the cracks or empty spaces found in other people's art.

[@metanumia]

I totally agree @The Princess and the Scrivener Major Depressive episodes are my *LEAST* creative times, I don't have the energy or motivation to do anything, I can barely get up to brush my teeth and I cannot feel pleasure in any amount. Eating food is a chore, I cannot taste a chocolate cake, even if it was from the world's most talented baker, that cake feels like tasteless cardboard, even my favorite foods are laboriously masticated and awkwardly swallowed for no reason other than survival during these episodes. I spend all day ruminating about every single one of my past failures and *ALL* *THE* *TASKS* *I* *KNOW* *I* *NEED* to complete, and every single new task exponentially increases my shame and guilt for not being able to finish. As the unfinished tasks pile up I grow increasingly anxious and panicked until it becomes impossible to start working on *ANYTHING* ...It's not fun.

[@FlexyVids]

Yeah, as i got more depressed i started to not only lose interest in art. It also made it a massive task to try and do art. Also failing to make anything i was happy with only made me more depressed.

[@plum111]

@@metanumia I relate to your comment on a spiritual level

[@metanumia]

@@plum111 Thanks, how so?

[@Oliver97]

I didn't start writing profusely until my life got rough. Mental illness may not have caused my creativity, but it inhanced it, brought it out, showed me a escape from a world that couldn't - wouldn't understand me, and sometimes it really does help me with my stories and art.

[@RichardHannay]

There's a saying I heard from a 1930s movie: "The sorrows of life are the joys of art" and I read it as that only in art can one make a tragedy or a disaster look beautiful (I immediately think of the suicide scene from *The Hudsucker Proxy* or the murder scene in *Psycho* ).... and I think people has since extended that thinking into romanticizing the tortured artist trope in art. But since art is so effective as a marketing tool that people think that's the case in real life as well. And that reminds me of another quote from *All About Eve* : "It's about time [Margo] realize that what's attractive onstage need NOT necessarily be attractive off" Geez, I'm in a movie quote binge lately. I'll show myself out now.

[@elsagrace3893]

Richard Hannay movie quotes.....I can’t relate to them because I don’t watch them and watching a movie enough times to remember a quote, nope, never, not how I want to spend my life.

[@RichardHannay]

Bless you Elsa Grace! May your time never be wasted.

[@oof-rr5nf]

Amazing comment there, Richard.

[@agnel47]

Frick man , I thought you were a real bodyguard.

[@ampz1466]

Thank you! I'm an new art student that just went through one of the worst depressions I've even faced and I think I really needed this. It doesn't matter if you're arty or not, depression just robs you of the ability to do anything. Even the kinda shitty stuff like cleaning becomes this massive task. And with anxiety, I can't keep still. My concentration was shot. This has been the least creative, least productive period of my life. But one of the worst things is that I feel like I was lazy and a failure because I could barely paint a half decent painting for my exams, but there's so many movies and tv shows that say I should've been more creative! My lecturer even implied that that my earlier work wasn't my own because my newer work is so bad. Luckily I had a good day in the workshop and could show him that I can actually paint. Thank you for doing this. I feel way better about struggling so hard.

[@pendlera2959]

I'm in almost the same spot, and man, it hurts. I look at my art and think, how did I do that? Like, it doesn't feel like it's mine. I sit, pencil in hand, in front of an open sketchbook, and just... can't. And cleaning! How can something the rest of society does so easily be so hard? I 'm super stressed right now because our apartment complex is getting a state inspection and they want us to declutter. If I could, I would. It's hard enough to psych myself up enough to do the dishes, and you want me to clean my whole apartment in a week?! I recognize that's a reasonable request for normal people, but I have barely enough energy for work and school and taking care of my dog - cleaning is not unimportant, but I just don't have the spoons left for it. So, yeah. Been there. I'll survive; you'll survive; it will pass eventually. But man, it hurts when you're in it.

[@ampz1466]

@@pendlera2959 Wow. It feels crazy to have someone be in such a similar situation. I truly wish I could send you a hug! Even down to the inspection. My govt sent me a warning letter about my garden. If I didn't clean it up they'd fine me. You're right though, I am getting better and you will get better. It doesn't usually feel like it to me; I still can't compete with my classmates and I'm nowhere near the me before depression. But I look back 6 months ago and, when I didn't have to force myself to go out, I often couldn't even get out of bed. I barely ate and hated everything I somehow forced myself to draw. I lost a lot of weight, so ironically people were saying how I looked good and complimenting me at work. Which made me feel so much more alone. I really hid it well from friends and family. I thought I was saving them from dealing with my pain. Most of them still don't know I was depressed. But it is getting better. I talked to my aunt and that helped and I just drew a puppy that I'm pretty happy with. I have high hopes for my final drawing assessment next week. I might even pass with some extra marks! If you told me a few years ago that I'd be excited to just pass I would have laughed at you. 70% was the lowest I'd be ok with. I've had to learn to be a lot more gentle with myself and to try to treat myself like I would a friend I loved. Sometimes that needs tough love but I really try to keep love in there. I fail quite a lot but have to keep trying, otherwise I'm just a complete asshole to myself and make my depression way worse. No one knows how to hurt you better than you. I'm really really sorry this comment turned into an essay. TL:DR - Sending love to you who's struggling with the same demon we call depression.

[@pendlera2959]

Essay comments are the best comments. :D (So long as they have line breaks. Walls of text make my brain shut down.) Well, if it helps, you helped me a little. After writing out my comment, I felt good enough to clean a couple things. Not even close to done, but a bit closer. People always say you should be positive and not complain, but I find that when someone else agrees that life is hard and pain is legit, it helps me to face it. It kills me when people say I'm making a big deal out of nothing. Then I start doubting myself and wondering what's wrong with me and why can't I just DO things? It helps to just be reminded that there are legitimate reasons for my struggles and that having a mental illness is not a moral defect for which I should be ashamed. One of my favorite quotes is "Never discourage anyone who continually makes progress, no matter how slow." I can look back a couple months and see growth. Every time they do an inspection, I clean just a bit more. I'm sure they can't tell, but I've always managed to get something done that won't get undone by the next inspection. The pressure from this inspection is so discouraging because I feel like they're saying all the work I've done so far doesn't count to them. I mean, cleaning is something I want to do, and something that I think about a lot, I just have to leave it undone because I need that energy for something else. But I did make progress today. So, that's good. The great thing about art is that every piece pushes you forward. It's impossible to make an artwork without growing a little as an artist. This is a bit sappy, but this is how I like to visualize it: Imagine all the art you will ever make is already in your arm when you're born. At your fingertips are the scribbles you make as you're learning to control your hands. The base of your fingers holds all the wonky stick figures you make in kindergarten. The palm of your hand has the drawings you make from those step by step books, and so on. As you go up your arm, the art progresses, until you get to the great pieces in your shoulder and, finally, the masterpieces in your heart. All those artworks already exist in your arm. The only way to get to the next level is to literally draw them out. You have to flush out the bad art to get to the better art. So when you make a bad drawing, that's not a bad sign. It just means you're one bad drawing closer to the good stuff. It also explains why sometimes you make an exceptionally good work - one of the good artworks shifted down a level or two, and you're getting a preview of what's ahead. And sometimes a bad artwork (or a clump of them) worms its way into the higher levels. Once it's out of your arm, you don't have to worry about it anymore. Just flush it out and start on the next one. Easy to visualize; hard to internalize. But I hope it helps. Sending you some virtual hugs, too! Best of luck on your exams, and I hope your depression eases soon.

[@XE0G]

I'm in the same situation, 3 years worst depression episode I've ever had, signed off work, had to shut my business down, could barely get out of bed to go pee let alone do anything else. I'm back in education now doing animation and illustration, my mental health is slowly getting better. But my depression has never helped me creatively, it's kinda hard to draw with blurry vision from bursting into tears regularly or sleeping 10+ hours. You'll get there it just might take a while and that's not bad 💜

[@ampz1466]

@@pendlera2959 I love the imagery of the artworks waiting in my arm! It's just so great! I watched a video the other day that said you have to do 100 bad drawings in order to master a skill. I like yours better but the idea is the same: making bad art is just making room for good art to come out. It helps bring me some patience. It's great I'm helping you too! I know its weird to say but I am pretty proud of you. I'll be honest here though - I'm stressing about the assessment. It's scary and I was a little too ambitious with what I thought I could do. Hold all thumbs for me cos I'm going to need a massive amount of luck for a pass. And I know what you mean about people belittling your pain. It's so hard to understand depression when you've never dealt with it. Sometimes people want to help and they say "just exercise" "just eat right" "just see a therapist". All of these do help but it's more difficult than they realise to do that and there's no "just do" anything with depression. But you did do so that pretty awesome.

[@sinachiniforoosh]

Also, even if people in creative jobs are more likely to suffer from mental illnesses, and even if there is a relationship, we might be getting the cause and effect backwards. There's enormous pressure on people when they're told that their sense of self-worth and productivity is tied to them coming up with new ideas, or "being smart", or "being creative". There's no straightforward way to be smart OR creative. We all know about writer's block for example. There's no guarantee that it'll end, and no indication of WHEN it'll end, and when your livelihood depends on it, it can be pretty stressful.

[@rachelsweets]

I agree

[@elicather8168]

I do actually think about this topic a lot. My depression and the experiences and troubles it’s put me through have definitely effected my art. It’s effected it mostly by giving me emotions and struggles to depict. But the main thing that I’ve learned, and what I think everyone needs to understand about this debate: when I’m depressed, or laying in bed unable to get up, or anxiously thinking about everything, or when I’m so depressed I turn suicidal, the last thing I’m doing is making art. I think the question is more about whether or not the experiences and struggles of mental illness would effect art. I think my mental illness has given me experiences that have made me stronger and want to depict how I feel in my art, but that’s only after recovering from it.

[@annafreitag9498]

Exactly. I think that way too, and that pretty much describes my own experiences as well. Further, I think the relationship might still be a little more complicated. Whether you call it depression or not, I think most artists are highly sensitive, perceptive and reflective and I think that these character traits often go hand in hand with if not feeling depressed at times, being melancholic or "mentally tortured" in a wider sense. So of course, being actually depressed and having a depressive phase stifles your motivation and creative process, but still, the underlying qualities why you are sad or melancholy or even depressed, namely sensitivity and so on is what often causes good art. It's like a two sided medal really. While it is extremely inspiring to be sensitive and receptive, it can also be really depressing because unlike other people who are not like this, you get confronted with so many impressions, emotions and thoughts and above all have to "organize" them in some form of creative outlet. It can be hard, it can certainly make you feel "tortured". And I think that is the true origin of that "myth". I don't think this myth is just a lie, there is some truth to it that can't be denied when actually thinking about it or hearing people's experiences.

[@AdrienDesautels]

'Are artists tortured?' Bottle of liquor in the back: 'Maybe'

[@lobstermash]

And not always the same bottle. It looks hospitable - she can offer you a drink if you go to her office. 😀

[@markgrennan5855]

Artists get the rep for being crazy because we all feel a need to express ourselves when we are emotional. We project this feeling on artists with a bios of... If I'm a little creative when I'm (depressed/happy) then an artist that created ALL THAT must be more (depressed/happy).

[@witchflowers6942]

I go to arts focused school, and it seems a concerning number of students have mental illnesses. I personally am quite a mess(most notably BPD). I’d certainly say that when I’m feeling lower than low I simply cannot will myself to create, however I’ll reflect on those emotions later and be able to implement them in my drawings or writing.

[@potmki6601]

I finished an art school, and kinda deviant kids to others ratio there was no different from my regular school or med college.

[@potmki6601]

The only strange thing was that there was like 2:3 male to female ratio in my middle school and college, but like 1:6 at least in art school

[@suides4810]

iop erty we have a ratio of 1:8 or greater in uni

[@spiritxdancer]

iop erty my guess is that part of this has to do with how we think of jobs. How often do we think of female accountants or male nurses?

[@bunnybreaker]

As an artist who has had to deal with depression, I've never felt like I need to be depressed to create. From a philosophical perspective, it makes sense to me to try to use the negative thoughts and feelings I do have to create something. Often it can feel like emotional and mental processing. This probably applies to a lot of people. So it's likely that many people who deal with depression are also the ones who need to use their innate creativity to get by.

[@bonniek356]

“Seriously, what are the jobs that can’t or don’t involve creativity?” First one mentioned was my actual day job and I cried a little inside. This is why I art hard in my off time. This was a really great video! Very interesting take. It reminds me of something from the book the Artist’s Way by Julia Cameron- she talks about myths surrounding being an artist that often keep people from wanting to be artistic, and one of the myths is that you have to struggle with a mental illness or substance abuse or both.

[@ThePurplenessness]

Maybe it's because in creative professions we can use these creative endeavours to express our emotions, which can involve the thoughts of mental illness. So it seems that creatives are tortured because they are in inherently expressive professions, which contain expressions of thoughts/emotions that you're much less likely to see in the work of, say, an accountant.

[@mayabrabender8085]

I want to thank you so so so much for this show! Realising how disadvantaged women are in any type of art world really took it's toll on me and made it hard to just freely enjoy art for fear of being confronted with misogyny or the fear that I cant take myself or other women seriously due to the lack of representation. The way you handle these topics carefully, don't ignore discriminatory aspects of art, and are sure to balance the representation in listings really is appreciated and means the world to me! (Almost) only thanks to you can I allow myself to delve into this world. On edge as I usually am it just wouldn't be possible.

[@itzolie]

Here’s my two cents on the matter. Romanticizing mental illness is deplorable. After all, if you’ve been through hell you’d never wish to condemn it upon your worst enemy. Because that’s how awful and terrifying it is. However I think a lot of humans, not necessarily just artists, go through some significant shit. And these extremely emotional, volatile, and powerful moments we have during a mental illness give us unique insights into what life is and what it means. Art born from mental illness is, in a way, extremely truthful and raw. I’ve recovered from clinical depression/ major depression. And that’s become a very significant part of where my art comes from. It shouldn’t be romanticized or praised, but it should be understood.

[@ricv64]

It's tough to be creative in a vacuum and then deal with the world . I've been a artist for 38 years . The longer you do it without what the world calls success the more the people around you tell you to give it up.That weighs down on you like a huge boulder. Whether I suck or not it's like breathing to me it's something I do

[@leffphield]

Interesting concept.

[@BadioTheAfricano]

When my suffering is unbearable - the only thing left to do is create. Art is an escape from reality, a drug - sex - liquor, money, a family, a job.

[@nukawolfkopa5]

I feel like I may be the only one to disagree with this. In my personal experience, I am an artist with depression, anxiety, PTSD, cognitive issues due to multiple sclerosis, and ADD. I have been an artist my entire life but as my cognitive and physical health issues started to impair my life, I’ve made less and less art over time. I did visual art, it was really my life. Now I write poetry occasionally and spend all my other time delving into medical books trying to figure out the physical diseases that are threatening to kill me. Some times I go into extreme bursts of energy and motivation and idea, I can draw for hours, read dozens of medical studies, clean, but most of all I’m thinking very deeply and profoundly about the world. I really relate to classic artists that have the energy like Van Gogh and Poe. Especially those who are outcasts, bizarre folks with eventful lives. For me, they lived a reality very similar to mine.

[@stellaluna6421]

I think there's also an urge to other-ize artists, to say "they're not like ordinary people and that's why they make great things" and mental illness becomes a tempting cultural explanation to rely on.

[@lorenabpv]

Well, I'm very crazy and have shitty mental health but I'm neither a productive nor a creative person lol. During depressive episodes I barely clean my room, during anxious phases I am so focused on the anxiety that any energy is lost in it. But really, though, thank you for this video :)

[@ZebrinhahDesrosiers]

Yeah same

[@ascetic3312]

Word, Lorena. Word.

[@derekdidear3575]

"so focused on the anxiety that any energy is lost in it." That line got me, and here you said you weren't creative.

[@lorenabpv]

I'm glad it resonated with you. I have spent so much time blaming myself for the lack of productivity that it's freeing to uderstand how mental illness is an illness, so it makes sense that it messes with you

[@forevercoldentertainment5211]

@@lorenabpv i dont claim to know you well but all i can say is your extremely high level of self awareness is worth some happiness for sure...u are very in tune w yourself which is very impressive

[@emmasmith5968]

This is crazy. Last year I wrote an entire research paper about this very issue and I used the EXACT same studies and interviews. In fact, I am currently working on a mural titled, "The Damaging Mythology of the Tortured Artist", based off of that same Jeff Tweedy interview. I guess it's good to know The Art Assignment approves of my sources and my stance on the topic haha

[@generalsleepy3859]

Since my diagnosis, I've always been sensitive to and kind of uncomfortable with arguments that an "upside" of bipolar disorder is that it fosters creativity. I don't think my illness (as in hypomania and depression) influence my writing directly. It's led me to experiences, both concrete and emotional, that I wouldn't have encountered if I was mentally healthy and that I can use in my art. But, the wonderful experiences in my life that had nothing to do with BP have also been just as important.

[@ProjectMoff]

Its not my depression and anxiety that makes me creative, its my creative nature that makes me depressed and anxious.. Just look at the world, money is valued over all else, all I've wanted to do was create, but this is selfish so I'm shunned, no one wants to understand or even acknoledge that there are people out there who just really want to create things and explore themselves, it makes life pretty lonely.

[@ash-bob3398]

I was watching this and I was like “wow, this is like what John talked about when he was trying to finish his last book” And then I remembered. John and Sarah are married. Duh.

[@DanielCenachi]

Thanks for the video! I'm bipolar and borderline and these diseases do not help me in the artistic process. Many times I spend months depressed and without producing a single scrawl. In fact, mental illnesses are very romanticized. Hugs from a Brazilian patron!

[@ZebrinhahDesrosiers]

YAS ASK A MORTICIAN COME THROUGH I STAN A DEATH POSITIVE QUEEN

[@ZebrinhahDesrosiers]

Quem gostou bate palma, quem não gostou paciência.

[@ZebrinhahDesrosiers]

@Dylan Kennedy muito legal você se importar com gramática e etc, mas de nada serve se você não for capaz de fazer as conexões sociais e contextuais que a linguagem exige e permite. Então da próxima que você sentir essa vontade incontrolável de ser foda na internet, considere todos os fatores subjetivos envolvidos e reprima essa sua vontade.

[@captainChernihiv]

😂

[@pendlera2959]

+Isabel Vidal That was epic

[@user-fr9vv7rg4k]

@@ZebrinhahDesrosiers is that Portuguese? it looks like Spanish and French mixed together lol. Are you Brazilian?

[@Tom-re6zo]

The worst part of this trope is that if you are a "tortured artist" it just makes you feel like that, a trope. It makes the suffering even worse because then you'd feel like your pain isn't legitimate, like you're just a caricature and the things that are bothering you aren't valid.

[@shady_dodo]

interesting. i've always loved drawing but tend to struggle to find inspiration. a year ago however, i had a period when i was heavily depressed, more so than i've ever been. i made my best art and was in a more consistent creative phase than i've ever been. part of it was that i needed an outlet to express my dark thoughts and feelings, the things i couldn't share with the world. part of it was that it kept my mind busy, something i desperately needed. now, since i've climbed my way out of that hole (somewhat) i haven't been able to produce anything quite as authentic and meaningful. it's odd how i was so motivated to create when i lacked motivation to even live during that time. i guess i'm one of the exceptions that prove the rule.

[@ltwig476]

Artist are trying to communicate something more than the common socially taught and accepted realities. We call it "seeing." Has little to do with the common form of seeing our world. What you perceive as a tree or a violin is actually a vision made up by social humans over thousands of years to better procreate, survive and sadly, capitalize on others. The greater underlying realities are commonly refrained from notice for purpose of said social gains. "A product or what many philosophers of science describe as the matrix" that we continued to create over thousands of years. The artist are only attempting to communicate the waking up of more deep realities for the good of mankind.

[@genesisbenavides4976]

I have always thought that being creative is the ability to see something as what it can become opposed to what it actually is. Artist, writters, composers, this people are required to be quite sensible (and by this I don't only mean sensible in an emotional way but also the awareness they must have on how they'll efficiently bring out their mental pictures into an existing reality). This "little anticipation of reality" mixed with emotions as grief, pain or doubt can result in trouble when the artist seeks comfort in his own, in his own mind, in his own works, in his own perception or on others people (artists) works that strongly resemble or agree the picture they have already envision. Stagnation is never good for a creative mind. P.S I see nothing bad in finding this romanticism in COMMON burst of pain, doubt, anger or fear, it helps me remember that one is able to create regardless anything.

[@sohaiblangrial2141]

I've wanted to write fiction since I was young, long before I got diagnosed with GAD. While suffering gave me a much needed perspective and helped me write better, GAD took the pain too far. If anything, it hindered my art rather than promoted it. I went to theatre and literature to get out of my illness and process it better through fiction. The quality of my work won't change if and when it goes away. The only thing that makes me a better writer is by forcing myself out of instant pleasures and sitting down with a notebook. Instant gratification is easy. Long-term gratification is too much work. But once you force yourself, and fight your being to do it, you'll be much more happy in the end.

[@lisameskimen9296]

Ask a Mortician!!! I love her videos!

[@paulinah9182]

Ikr, she's awesome!

[@theartassignment]

Me too!

[@DasGanon]

It's so good! If any Art people are going through and going "Does she only do videos on what a mortician does?" She doesn't! Actually she does a lot of things relating to death and decay. The most "Art Applicable" is this one, about "Mummy Brown" kzbin.info/www/bejne/kHKplpSdh9t-rq8

[@bettyemachetetmi5005]

She is the one who I really hope to meet so I can tell her thank you for the gift of my father at the end of his life. I'd not have known that our family was ALLOWED to stay with his body and not just rush him off to strangers to be airbrushed and hairsprayed. He was a part of the world as he was made 93 years and I had him or been a part of him for 4 decades and 29 days. Caitlyn gave me the knowledge that there is not a law dictating we. Must immediately surrender our Duke to be embalmed. We dressed Him and sang to him, my mom and I. No rush. He was OURS. In a month I'll be 43. Just got news that I have a large tumor In my pituitary gland and out into the tissues of my brain. It's very quickly growing. I talked to my mom and boyfriend.... I just want to do that if I have to get a little bit more ..in a hurry on the way to plan these things. I love that girl. She's a great example of the Pluto in Scorpio generation which is the subject of the book I'm writing. Kids born from 1984-95. Truly a revolutionary group of people. Taking the taboo out of death and sex because it is not healthy for the human spirit to be conditioned to think it's wrong to be curious about it.. It's. Human to be MORE so once you are told that a topic is not to be talked about or questioned. That's what leads to trouble. God bless you, Caitlyn!

[@warrenbradford2597]

I will just keep getting healthier to make more art. I do need mental illnesses to make my works high quality.

[@waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa9739]

as an artist who suffers from severe depression - thank you so much for this video. i hope it sheds more light on the topic for the people not involved in it. over the years i grew so tired of people glossing over famous artists' mental unwellness that i became biased towards their art as well. my depression was never a part of my job, neither it ever was a source of inspiration for me. it was never either of these things for every artist with the illness that i personally know. it's an obstacle of incomprehensible size on my path that i have to climb over every single day and i hate it, it feels like a giant boulder on my shoulders and year after year it takes away so much of my productivity and love for art that i want to cry, because i can only dream of how good my work could have been by now. which only makes it worse. i wish people would stop saying "oh that makes sense, you're just a creative soul! life's always hard for people like you, its only natural!" mental illness and depression in particular were never an "artist thing". it's a "giant pain in the ass for anybody who enjoys what they do" thing

[@AudreyDurden]

so basically the system is finding yet another way to keep the creative genius down and disregard their brilliance in order to discredit their amazing work. I'm disgusted by this. mediocrity is going to overrun the world. and it's not gonna be the meek, but the complacent and boring that inherit the Earth. this concept exists to make the non-creative people feel better about their selves because they are clearly envious of those crazy artists that can create things that the mentally stable can't even conceive in the depths of their dreams.

[@plebiansociety]

I'm with ya on this, it just feels like mediocrity justifying it's existence. Of course depressives aren't productive, that would be a beaten artist, not a tortured one. The word 'tortured' would assume someone fighting back against the pain, not accepting of it. It's like saying 'kids, don't use these complicated emotions in your art, take your meds to feel pleasant and be witty to make something that feels neeto instead of something that creates awe." I have a very artistic family and I see this with my cousins. One is extremely practiced and uses precise techniques to make very good pop art pieces that lack any sort of depth, the other could step in pile of dog shit and what he would stomp out on the concrete would have more artistic depth than all of the other's combined pieces. Being an Artist vs. someone who makes Art.

[@SourEggz]

Man... I love Nanette. I was so enthralled and impressed by the inclusion of art history - and in particular, the romanticizing of Vincent Van Gogh. I must confess, it made me nostalgic about attending art history classes or talking in length with my best friends about art history.

[@dannyarafa7874]

Its super simple. Those in creative fields produce works that are shared, exhibited, and allow them to reflect themselves. A writer, singer, or painter can produce an art piece to show their pain, and share it with hundreds. A doctor or truck driver, on the other hand, has no such outlet in their profession to reflect their pain. Thus their pain goes unnoticed by the masses.

[@damiancampbell7534]

Also most work made by artists doesn't get out there in the world. Literally more than 90% of art that has been made will never get seen by the mainstream, let alone a few hundred people. Makes you wonder just how many creative people are out there, who use their suffering as their muse, as I do. We don't know how many of those people there are, because they have not been made known, or ever will be made known.

[@Cbx452]

I'm the complete opposite I create more when I'm feeling, I paint in my bedroom. When I'm depressed, anxious or manic I paint, I have no idea why I can paint my ideas then. I'm guessing its an urge of release, I can't paint when I'm feeling good, mind gets shut off 🤷‍♀️

[@XyphileousLF]

Art is the product of an artist, a reflection of their soul. So while mental illness isnt necessary to art; Francis Bacon wouldn't have conjured such visceral pieces were it not for his ailments and kinks.

[@juliabustos-gusse8821]

My therapist once told me that my depression does make my art better, but so does my joy. Both widen my depth of experience, and a wide depth of experience makes my art better.

[@damiancampbell7534]

I KNOW RIGHT! I have been suffering for years, and creative artwork has been the only thing that has helped me. Years of anti-depressant medication, and therapy has been useless! Every time I complete a project, no matter how big or small that project is, I always feel great for a couple of days. I feel satisfied and fulfilled, and never end up emotionally low after I complete a project, for at least a day or two. Though when I am emotionally low, it is very hard but not impossible for me to do any creative work. This video and comment section seem very ignorant of the fact that for some people, like me at least, have found that creative art work is a form of therapy that works great for us. All of this none-sense seems so dismissive and invalidates a form of therapy that works. I don't necessarily use my mental illness to make my art better, I use art to make my mental illness better, and I do believe my art end up benefiting from it. It's a self feeding cycle that works well, and I've been better off for it. Screw this video, and noise in the comment section, I'm just a guy trying to live his life the best he damn well can.

[@sealivezentrum]

The quality of this vid is stunning

[@alexanderadkins2391]

I think the reason some people love these artist struggles is b/c its something to relate to, a way to not feel alone, the feeling that even on their worst day they truly where great. Deserving of praise and worthy of love. Pushing people to keep fighting, seeing that depressed people are also successful. b/c art was an escape for the feelings we cant describe. And all we had to relate to where depressed artist b/c no one created icons with mental illnesses so artists were the only ones, thus now they are romanticized b/c they were so popular and people capitalized off that. But we loved their triumphs not just the fact they where depressed, we loved their silver linings and it gave us all a little hope we could accomplish things in out life even though we are depressed or even a little odd. Art is a creative job for creative people. An escape, we build from our own hands to express things out mouths cannot. Making characters to write stories that revolutionized eras.

[@patrikhautala828]

Creative accounting is what gets us into financial crises.

[@Nikita8r]

i like your comment

[@helvete_ingres4717]

No it isn't. 'Creative accounting' is typically employed to conceal an illegal activity such as tax evasion. Financial crises aren't caused by people not paying taxes or fudging accounts, they're caused by more macro-phenomena such as trading and speculating in volatile derivatives which ISN'T illegal in the slightest in the financial system we have. Almost no one responsible was punished by the law in any way for the last global recession. Because most of it is perfectly legal. It IS the system.

[@getupmydarling]

Haha! Yes

[@helvete_ingres4717]

+Patrik Hautala you're an idiot

[@patrikhautala828]

@@helvete_ingres4717 thats not nice :(

[@SalsaColombiaUS]

“You must have chaos within to give birth to a dancing star 💫 “ My most creative moments came from depression and the need to survive.

[@charlottecarter2748]

In my opinion theres to much focus on mental sickness. Every person has a varying degree of mental strength against their personal affliction. If a person is drawn towards artistic creation as a way of relieving the tension and suffering within themselves that is their own choice. Why make it a big thing. We look back in history and appreciate what outstanding people wrote down, composed, painted and think how it moved us. Glamorising the ups and downs of a persons psyche just doesn't interest me as much as their creation. However its cool to hear the topic being analysed in quality detail. Thought provoking video!

[@viviannehunt1371]

Before I became my treatment for Bipolar Disorder, I was afraid that my creativity would die. For one year it was hard to do anything other than just... be... but after that first year I went back to being creative, except now I was mostly healthy and functional. I am so thankful that I didn't romanticise my illness or stop taking my pills, because they have saved my life, and my creativity. :)

[@ggg148g]

Thank you for doing this. We romanticize madness and many other things that we should regard as serious problems, and some debunking is very much welcome.

[@lindahl458]

Creativity is (overly simplified) to make new connections, something which is "easier" when your not right in the head. The depressed head is very creative when making the connection between a failed jojo trick in 6th grade and why 10 years later your partner dumped you

[@brisvegas859]

a real artist is seeking the truth - the truth is painful - the artist suffers in their quest for the truth anyone can be creative but how far are you willing to go in the search for the truth?

[@lucasAA927]

@полая Христос That's the point, suffering creats great art after you get of it, it's a moment of truth and beautiful creativity, you can see what happened and understand it, and that makes great art

[@miguelvidal2335]

true that

[@Meloncov]

Based on strictly anecdotal evidence, it seems plausible that people with mental illness might be more likely to take up art (and especially writing) as a form of self-treatment. The mental illness certainly doesn't make them a better artist, and often actively hinders it, but it might make them more likely to pursue art in the first place. Alternately, it seems very plausible that artists are more in touch with their emotions than the average public, and this leads them to be more likely to seek out diagnosis and treatment for mental illness. This could lead to higher rates of diagnosis despite the actual incidence of mental illness being the same.

[@themadhattress5008]

I don't think Poe was mad. Rather, I think he himself romanticised madness, as have so many other people in creative circles. He did write somewhere in the Gothic vein, and he did read a lot of the Romantic poets' work, such as Keats and Coleridge. If you really read Poe's stories, however, he experimented a great deal, dabbling in several genres, aside from the Gothic. That being said, while it is possible he suffered from some amount of depression, I don't think it was bipolar disorder, let alone any manner of psychosis. Regarding my own experiences with mental illness and creativity, I have found that my creative streak tends to stay almost the same, if relatively heightened during depressive episodes. I can write whether I'm having a normal day, but my poetry may be more forthcoming in a depressive state. I attribute this to the higher levels of my thought processes. When I get depressed, I often think and obsess and fixate on tiny details that really don't amount to anything. Poetry just happens to be an outlet for how I feel or what I think. But as I have said, on any given day, no matter my mental state, I can still pen a poem with the same amount of finesse one way or another. The only difference is my poetry may take on a darker tone in a more depressive state, let alone be a touch more expressive. What I'm saying is my mindset isn't necessarily stunted or stifled when I'm depressed. I've always thought my poetry is best when I am depressed, however, because of the intensity of emotion, thought, and outright expression, but that's purely my opinion. Reading the lot of my work, one may find it hard to even spot the differences between my "normal" poetry and those written in a more depressive state.

[@lauren-gx1lg]

this is a fascinating observation, I'd never considered that before

[@mrtheratchild]

Thank you so much for making this video! I was actually waiting for this to come about! It's so important to see this being discussed because it helps normalize discussing it in the first place, as well as normalize seeking help for it. As an artist, I'm perpetually tired of hearing people chalk up my personality to being an artist, or vice versa. I try hard to combat the feelings of self worth by trying to separate who I am from also being an artist, something that becomes increasingly difficult when I find myself falling into a rut or even depression. People who say that you need to be manic or depressive in order to create only see the product of our work; they don't see the person suffering. If medication and therapy change what content artists create, then so be it, but at least the artist is healthier on some level. Thank you again for this!

[@Goffix2009]

I utilize my compulsion disorder using the stipple technique when I'm drawing surrealism with pen and ink. I would work for hours on end! I sometimes stop when my hand gets numb!

[@robots-in-relationships]

The correlation between creative jobs and mental illness could also be that full-time jobs mandate behavior that could be hard to maintain if you're mentally ill. Just in the standard work day you have to guarantee that you can be awake at a certain time, that you can maintain alertness and focus for 4-8 hours after arriving, and that you can have all of your work done by the time everyone else leaves. So standard work kind of disproportionately pushes out mentally ill people, and so it would be less about "more mentally ill people show up in this industry" and more about "mentally ill people are constantly rejected in that industry"

[@HowardWimshurst]

gave in and finally clicked on the video - glad I did subscribed!

[@gabyr.883]

Farmers suffer from high rates of suicide???? That really shook me, I would be very happy if Im able to work in nature

[@yashsinojia6170]

Okay, depression makes you uncreative for a while but when one had had that experience, that person comes out to be more creative. It's post-depression that makes you do an art, so in a way, depression can actually teach you things about creativity.

[@SeeingColor]

I applaud you for being the rare person who refuses to put people in BS singular categories based on their profession, mental diagnosis etc.

[@juviapitts167]

Is nobody going to mention the bottle of vodka behind her?

[@blakecampbell306]

I go to Berklee College of Music. I'm a composer, a visual artist, and writer. I can tell you for sure that not once poor mental health ever improved the quality of my work. In fact, it has only inhibited me from creating. Anxiety induced self- criticism petrifies me. Depression silences me completely. Every brilliant creative I've ever studied from Billy Strayhorne to Toni Morrison is someone who diligently practices their craft and finishes projects. Then, they go out and have experiences and express those experience through their medium. You can't do that if you don't even want to get out of bed in the morning. I want to be the best artist I can be so I'm committed to being healthy! And I want every artist to have that too! Heck, everyone deserves access to great mental health, that's a human right.

[@bananana2624]

Still baffled how there isn't one single damn show on American tv about art for us artists and others to watch. Absurd. Might be something the Art Assignment can explore (hint)

[@Music_Lover0612]

Project Runway and cooking shows. Culinary and fashion count.

[@TallicaMan1986]

Bana Nana PBS knowledge plays some cool stuff at night.

[@Pyro-Moloch]

As a struggling beginner filmmaker, I feel like depression never helps me, but I also feel like I wouldn't even start all this, if I wasn't depressed.

[@emileconstance5851]

I'd like to see The Art Assignment offer more creative and less predictable views of art. I'd like to see questions asked that aren't standard art history fare. I'd like to be surprised. For example, we've seen the "case for abstraction" made repeatedly for over a century--no-one needs to make the case for abstraction in the 21st century, nor the "case for conceptual art." Why not "the case for painting?"--that would be a novel and interesting discussion--is there a case to be made, what is the case, what is the counter-argument? This comment is intended to be constructive--The Art Assignment does a great job, but I'd love to see them "draw outside the lines" so to speak. I'd love to see them present some ideas, or a perspective, that I haven't heard before, or see them make the case for something that would genuinely surprise me and other viewers. Hope this doesn't sound overly critical. It may be that the intention of The Art Assignment is to inform viewers, and they do that well, but is that the sole objective?

[@josicane1624]

That is a really interesting perspective you have. I think they talk about abstraction and not about paintings because very less people see a "traditional" painting and go "yeah, no, that's not real art". I'm sure you are aware of that. Did u make different experiences?

[@theshoes7488]

Okay I don’t want to come off as confrontational.... So I don’t think it is paramount in listing accomplishments (big or small here) but a tiny bit of context might help. I wrote, played, and sang for my old project the electric shoes. It ended up not being anything special...but honestly, this is where the topic of the video comes into play. Now I truly hope if nothing else, you believe that this is genuine. I loved (I still do) music and art and felt that it was my purpose to make something that others could enjoy that I was proud of. I wasn’t interested in infamy or large amounts of money (I had a semi-rational fear of signing contracts). I just wanted to make music that people loved...that made them happy, and when coming to a live show...they left feeling better, more energized and excited. So to get a little deeper into what ended up happening. Now without trying to romanticize anything...I suffer from extreme social and regular anxiety and depression. I would beat myself up for what seemed like my entire existence about past mistakes. I would play mind games with myself, imagining that there was *one thing* I may have done wrong and long story short, it was very hard on myself, and the people I worked with. I would constantly underestimate myself to the point of self sabotage. I remember having industry auditions for tv shows...and I would be so certain that nothing would come from it. That I would watch as my current partner would lie on applications for these auditions about questions involving “have you ever gotten a traffic violation?” “Have you ever been arrested ?” (My partner at the time had both traffic tickets and got arrested for possession of weed) and for whatever reason...(maybe fear of if things didn’t go well I could blame it on those things) I would just keep quiet. Anyways....Turns our, we got selected to be on two of the shows only to get shamefully rejected during the background checks during the application process. Or other things like not signing a contract after submitting my work to a record label. Things that to this day I don’t really understand. I love music and I love art...I am okay at them...but I have a miserable time doing the things that I believe most people would enjoy. I am always greatful to people that would express that the work I did impacted them...but I would have a hard time taking what they said to heart. I would feel out of place always. Feel like I didn’t belong. I still feel/felt passionate for what I did and for the medium (others work), but always felt that if I could have the relaxed mindset of someone else, then everything else would be a lot easier to handle. I know showing vulnerability on the internet is never a good idea, but I feel like i had to comment on your video. I enjoyed it, although I disagreed on some points (but with a topic so complicated and vague, thats only to be expected). In conclusion, I think there definitely is the hyping up and over romanticizing mental illness in regards to creativity in art and music. Though I firmly believe that in some cases, it is undisputed the case. Good luck to everyone who read this, those in the industry, and to those suffering with mental illness (god knows we all need it). Your viewer, TheOldShoes

[@camillastacey4674]

I have bipolar disorder, fibromyalgia and social anxiety. I'm also an artist. I firmly believe that they aren't related and the myth of the tortured artist is offensive. I do work in fits and starts- 6 months can go by without me making any art but that's not romantic, its crippling. I think the diagnosis of famous people from the past isn't helpful at all and just promotes the idea you have to be mad to be a genius... Obviously I AM a mad genius...

[@AndreasDevig]

Maybe really sensitive people tend to feel more. Not just painful emotions but also pleasurable emotions (?). So this can be good for creating art, especially the more pleasurable emotions.

[@AndreasDevig]

@Xeph Xen Sure, but if you're really tortured, you won't be abled to do much work (artistically or otherwise). If you're really depressed, you can't even get out of bed. How much work are going to be abled to do? Not much.

[@ratfishking]

I've had depression and anxiety for years and always wanted to do something creative but never could. The first time I actually wrote something I liked was recently that I finally started treatment. Now I read more too so I can improve. I'm more empathic and understand human emotions better. Before, I could never fully grasp what the characters in the books I read were thinking, feeling and why they did the things they did. How could I be a writer like that? And what's sad is that I used to believe in this romantisation of depression even though I lived hell everyday because I wanted to be worth something but that only made me suffer longer and never seek help.

[@papilloneffect4015]

4:53 Um... well duh... He's dead. "Did you guys hear Johnny stopped coming to work after he died?" "Oh dang... I wonder why, I bet it was bob in accounting; he never liked that guy".

[@leffphield]

#Help

[@comradeavocatto1839]

they are depressed because they are broke, exhausted, unappreciated, and underpaid.

[@Masterfilm15]

I'd say its a myth, not all great art was made from madness, and at the end of the day were channelling these creations, music, pieces. Imagine people like radios, and artists are tapping into certain stations.Everyone tapes into creativity differently. Some hardships points peoples channeling into a different direction, but also great moments do the same. I agree we shouldn't glorify the tortured artist, thats hollywood putting labels on people once again. But art could help people with mental illness as well. Being creative is a type of meditation, and meditation is by far one of the most healthy things to do for the mind.

[@thepeacefish]

Art, I think, often comes from a need to express emotions in a way that’s indirect enough as to not scare people away. Instead of saying “I hurt right now” and being received as fragile and needy, many artists channel such feelings into creative content like paintings or writing, because it gives them a way to connect with people about those feelings. I think we say artists are especially depressed because we see the feelings in their work, we connect with them, but we’re afraid to say we feel the same - we assign artists the task of being emotional for us.

[@futseb]

Usually i like your videos and i thank you for them. But the assimilation you make between tortured and mentally ill is way to simplifying. I don't know much about painting or plastic arts but i am more into literature and poetry. And it is a matter of fact that most of the "great" writers, or the one considered to be great, had all suffered from quite dreadful relationship with parents, traumatic experiences and such. It rings with a famous Nietzsche's sentence that is "you must carry a chaos with yourself to give birth to a dancing star". I don't know how "tortured" can be assimilated with "mentally ill". It can simply mean having major problem in life, dealing bad relationship with parents, the opposite sex and/or the entire world, severe financial problems ect... Creativity is also linked to a different way to see and feel people and the world. Does "tortured" simply mean "weird" ? That would explain the thing. Tortured because he is too idealistic. Tortured can mean so much more that having a clinical psychiatric condition by nowdays' standards.

[@blownspeakersss]

Well said. So many great writers were known to have suffered from serious mental illness/alcoholism/etc.

[@maggyfrog]

thank you for this comment. i almost completely disagree with the video. she's basically refuting any effect suffering has on art. all i could think of while watching the video are artists who suffered greatly throughout their lives and STILL came up with their respective art. and what about musicians who drew inspiration from their trauma and depression? chester bennington clearly did just this, as anyone who has ever listened to linkin park can attest to. no, the tortured artist is most definitely NOT a myth. great pain is not a prerequisite to genius, but it also isn't a barrier, like this video suggests. also, what about artists like yayoi kusama, who literally draw inspiration from the way their mental illness make them see the world? she paints what she hallucinates, which are brought on by her mental illness.

[@carnivalissmellsnotgood2324]

@@maggyfrog @Maggy Frog artists can definitely draw inspiration from their mental ilness experiences, but keep in mind that when you are/feeling debilitating depressed and/or dysfunctional its hard to get that inspiration out on paper. "Great pain" can totally act as a barrier or at least an obstacle. People become homeless because of its very real you can't really say it does anyone a favor.

[@maggyfrog]

carnival is smells not good i'm not really talking about whether it's good that artists suffer or not. it's about whether there is such a thing as a tortured artist, and there definitely is such a thing. the "tortured" in tortured artist simply means that there exists a great pain that the artist inevitably has to deal with. tortured also in a sense that it's a possible source of debilitation and hindrance. but to say that all forms of this great pain does nothing for the creative aspect or the art itself is not only a great lie, but frankly a blatant disrespect to all art that happened to be borne of great pain.

[@kamikazeyazzie]

You obviously never heard the term "tortured artist", or how the mainstream/popular culture perceives artists as weird and self destructive. This is what this video is about, not a full analysis of mental illness or creativity, for that there was some references mentioned if a viewer wants to study it further. The mainstream is all to familiar with artists that are consumed and ultimately die because of the art that they create, Van Gogh, Hemingway, Rothko, Basquiat, Cobain, Foster Wallace, the list is long. But, regardless, Its the "tortured artist" that the mainstream public celebrates in the end.

[@AliBeilke]

I read a book by Albert Rothenberg about this! He coined the term "Janusian Process" for using contradicting ideas to come up with something new. But that kind of creative thinking can seem like madness to someone else. He draws a sharp distinction between mental illness & creativity. He did so much research on what creativity is & it's relationship with mental health. I'm not all the way through the video but after scanning the comments, I didn't see any mention of his name so I had to bring it up! Thanks for making this! I love all the things i learn here!

[@TheSugarRay]

I know an engineer. They just got promoted to Engineer 2. Not a normally creative bunch.

[@Odlopo]

TheSugarRay he now has access to mk.2 tools

[@TheSugarRay]

@@Odlopo *she. I'll check if those words mean anything to her.

[@willfrank961]

I'm a musician and have found myself justifying depression saying it will result in something meaningful. I think I'll be much better off knowing that happiness and good art aren't mutually exclusive. Thank you Sarah. You're the best!

[@Terrovin]

Your clinical view of art and psychology is blind to the profundity of how great art comes to be. A genius artist can see vastly deep into the truths of existence, and often the price to pay is grievous pain. Van Gogh, Nietzsche, etc, were tormented by the immense emotional intensity they each possessed, which was the exact mechanism by which they gleaned their great works. This intensity is what you often call 'insanity', and once again it made their lives hell, but it made them go places that nobody else would our could. Here is the fact of the matter: Any art that is worth a damn and will last into the future took so much work and pain to make that no sane person would ever make it. Given the choice between a happy life with a family, or the life that a creative genius often lives, one would always choose the former if they really understood the latter. With that in mind it's obvious they had no choice. Its despicable to see people like that "comedian" piss her cocktail of contempt and ignorance on the legacies of great people who had bigger souls than any of us.

[@beefandbarley]

In my opinion, you are exactly right.

[@ojiverdeconfleco]

Thank you for this episode! As a Psychologist and a lover of art, seeing how suffering affects the lives of the artists, of people, really moves me. I agree that we create despite of our limitations, whatever those may be, and in doing so we tell the story, we surpass it, transcend it, or we express something unrelated just because we can (and perhaps can't help but) connect with an other. All that the beautiful colors and textures and sounds in art tell me is that someone else somewhere thought of it too, and then we are connected as humans. To quote your husband, Sarah, if I may: "suddenly I understood why they call it eye Contact".

[@jamescotter]

I have to disagree, at least that it's a myth. Because of course there's a connection, the creative past and modern day is littered with suicides, dying in asylums and drug overdoses. I think researchers are just looking at the wrong variables, in the wrong place; they're looking at the connection to full blown mental illness, but it seems to me that most intensely creative people are far closer to that threshold than others but a lot don't actually cross over into a declarative diagnosis. I think a lot of hyper-creative people are just more sensitive to the world and thus it affects them more or in a different way. Usually when speaking with writers and artists, they immediately 'get it' when I say that the wind through the pines reminds me of a past sweetheart and the way the wind moved through her hair; or that the feel of the earth in my hands makes me want to cry because my mind floods with thoughts of my mother and grandmother. It's an intensity and sensitivity that less creative people always balk at and say, "huh, you're really weird."

[@Meloncov]

I think you need to be wary of confirmation bias, as well as the bias towards telling the most interesting stories. People with happy and uncomplicated personal lives tend to have their personal lives glossed over by life history.

[@brianfrick3693]

I’m a actor(Which I do believe is an art form) and I have many mental illnesses. People often tell me how good I am at acting. I think this is because I’ve been through more than other people with out a mental illnesses have, making me more understanding of emotions and how they work. But, I rarely get cast as good roles due to me usually sitting alone looking like I don’t want to be there (even though I love being there and the theater is even my favorite place) yet, I’m always told by directors how good I am. This really wasn’t related to the video, I just wanted to share.

[@Nikooru84]

Why is there a vodka bottle in the background?

[@iNerdier]

Can’t a woman enjoy a drink?

[@thehandoftheartist6536]

This reminds me of a wonderful talk that David Lynch gave a few years ago in which he spoke about creativity. For so long I believed that you needed to be a bit tortured to create good art but this totally shifted my perspective. Here's the quote: "A lot of artists think that suffering is necessary, but in reality, any kind of suffering cramps the flow of creativity [...] Happiness “in the doing” is so important. I always say it’s our life going by…. [With creativity flowing], ideas are easier to catch - and ideas that could take you out of “drudgery work” and lead you to some… fantastic things." I can acknowledge the importance of creative processes as a means of catharsis during low points, however, I think at some point those internal feelings can impact your progress tremendously, and to your detriment, as we have seen over and over again. Thank you for addressing the problematisation that comes with romanticising mental illness. I've dealt with it personally and had to see loved ones go through it too - it's ugly, it's messy, it's aggressive, it's manic, it's brilliant, and it's terrifying... but we can't continue to believe that it's something we should aspire to.

[@FeraltheEarthworm]

I hear you but your desire to draw a connection to 'Tortured' and 'Mentally Ill' is strange to me. One doesn't exactly mean the other. I've lived in vehicles, lost relationships, and spent years with a minimal amount of resources in the name of pursuing art whole-heartedly. The isolation and sadness endured has been torturing in it's own way. I do not claim to be mentally ill and doubt most creatives in similar situations are actively doing this either. Our society places an emphasis on financial gain and status. Often to pursue something creative is to forfeit both, thus making you less respectable in the eyes of many. This is irritating because you know in your heart that you're living your truth and doing what you love even if it doesn't mean great reward. This to me is a virtue of sorts yet we've got people like the president though who were born rich, were too big to fail, exhibited minimal levels of integrity, and yet still rose to the top. Why? This is about as close to 'mental' that I get. Society doesn't make much sense and often cuts me, yet to cope, I create. It's a cycle that can be 'torturing'. It is worth it though because I enjoy the mere act of writing. Your video just seems off to me. Something about it aims to draw this conclusion that we're out here making shit up or romanticizing insanity when that's not it at all. The struggle is just incredibly real.

[@marystone1526]

From your criticism, I doubt you understood the video. The video wasn't about the sacrifices mentally healthy people make for their art or the hardships that may come with struggling to make a living from one's art. At no point in the video is there a mention of (financially) struggling artists faking mental illness or anything like that. Instead, it was specifically about romantising mental illness and how people believe that you have to suffer from a mental illness to be a great artist. Maybe rewatch the video, it might provide interesting insight to you.

[@iip]

As a creator who is too afraid of the word "art", I agree with the statement that art happens best when your spirits are high. But I think the depth in your work comes when you do know the existence of dark monsters when you create beautiful things, you know about the dystopian horrors of the hell when you create works of order, you know the deepest tragedies of being a human when you create humour. Knowing about the suffering greatly helps in creating the antidote to suffering.

[@ingridsorensenofficial]

If you're a happy artist and you know it, clap your hands!

[@azulceleste7202]

And no one had ever encountered with such absolute silence.

[@oof-rr5nf]

@@azulceleste7202 Look again. The silence is actually 12 likes on the comment in question.

[@emilsgosko5217]

@@oof-rr5nf dislike

[@oof-rr5nf]

@@emilsgosko5217 Hmm?

[@shihtzupuppy823]

The Choreologist 👏🏻👏🏻

[@keeperofthecheese]

Er disagree on this one. Plenty of our most celebrated modern artists were making works under the influence of profound mental illness or derangement caused by fetishes or addiction. Popular artistic expression itself has often been directly associated with irregular mental conditions - because its those people who are willing to experiment more chaotically and express more controversial ideas. Rothko was a bipolar depressive, Dali was a sadistic narcissist, Pollock was a drunk.