The Nature of the Balrogs of Morgoth | The Red Book | Episode 4

[@alexneill8338]

I think this is part of the reason why the Bridge Of Khazad-Dum scene is so iconic. Gandalf's revealing himself as a "servant of the Secret Fire" and calling his nemesis "flame of Udun" lend the text so much mythical and historical weight in just a few words. Upon first reading, one senses that we are being offered a glimpse into an era so far back in time that the word "ancient" barely covers it. And the lack of explicit information is partly what makes Balrogs so terrifying. There's so much depth and mystery to these few words that we're still speculating and pondering over them 70 years later!

[@indio4-215]

Indeed, and I didn't realize the significance of "Flame of Udún" and "servant of the Secret Fire" until I eventually delved deeper into Tolkien's Legendarium and found out that Udún was a term used for Utumno, Melkor's first and greatest fortress during the Years of the Trees, and is a Quenya word for "Underworld" and "Hell" in Sindarin, respectively. And the Secret Fire being another term for the Imperishable Flame/the Flame Imperishable that creates and gives life used only by Ilúvatar (and other words like "Flame of Arnor"). After the fact, the scene holds even more weight than it already did. Pretty much two servants (Durin's Bane and Olórin/Gandalf) representing their respective masters (Melkor/Morgoth and Eru Ilúvatar).

[@Tar-Elenion]

@@indio4-215 Also when Gandalf says "The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn", Udûn refers to 'hell', "Tolkien defines it in his unfinished index as '"dark pit", the dwelling of Morgoth beneath Thangorodrim ... called the Underworld of old' (distinct from Udûn a place in Mordor...)". See Lord of the Rings A Reader's Companion, by Hammond and Scull

[@catherinewhite2943]

That was excellent; yes indeed the confrontation in Moria was between an angel and a demon.

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks for checking it out Catherine :)

[@josephraffurty9293]

Just imagine being an elf facing an army of balrogs in the silmarillion the first time they are unleashed. Gandalf died killing one and only survived because Eru returned him to middle earth. Now you’re facing dozens of them. It’s unfathomable just how terrifying that must have been to witness.

[@mosesgunn6937]

Another slam dunk. I have watched thousands of hours of Tolkien content on KZbin, and yours is always on another level of scholarliness. Thank you for what you do!

[@anglerfish4161]

I know this is a minor theme of the episode, but I'm glad to hear about Arien. She's a minor character, but still underrated as one of the few beings to utterly vex Melkor, despite having an analogous nature. She's a lesser Varda in some ways, representing the light of Eru that makes others thrive, but he, mightiest of all, can't imprision or understand. At least in one version, she reject's Melkor's courtship just like Varda (Morgoth Bauglir, Arda's first incel). That she's the spirit that carries the sun must really sting, imagine having a daily reminder of your failure driving across the sky.

[@TheRedBook]

There's also a version where she is "ravished" by Melkor and it causes him to scorn the Sun due to her reaction to him. She's a very interesting figure. I tend to message her every now and again in Melkor videos but it would be good to cover her in an Archives episode and show how she changed over different versions of Tolkien's text. Will add that to my list.

[@noahjones5659]

“I’m not saying only those spirits who became the Balrogs made up this group, but I am confident in saying that every spirit that became known as a balrog was part of this group.” Excellently said.

[@KenderPlex]

Please keep making these, I never thought I could fall in love with this universe all over again from just one youtube channel but here we all are.

[@arkheth]

This is my new favourite Tolkein channel

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks a lot :) ! A lot of competition out there but I'm happy people are enjoying my videos.

[@TheRedBook]

Hope you enjoyed episode 4 . Leave your thoughts and questions below and I will respond to the best of them on my next Appendices video! Episode 5 will be available in October. Based on the reaction to the poll I ran for this episode, I have decided that Episode 5 will focus on Fëanor as a subject. You can find the Podcast on Spotify at (open.spotify.com/episode/6ji6GiG9IYhbHUrdsyWmsJ?si=396a9b9c4f384481) Or you can find it on other platforms at (anchor.fm/red-book) You can get early access to Podcast episodes and videos by joining Patreon (patreon.com/theredbook)

[@MistaGify]

I admit, I was expecting an analysis of the Balrog’s evolution, similar to what you did with the Witch-King. A long-overdue video on the finalized Balrogs, nonetheless. Looking forward to the one where you do go over their evolution!

[@neilmcfarlane]

Three thoughts on the Balrogs: That the Maiar were drawn to Valar of whom they were like (ex. Ossë to Ulmo) is interesting to further correlate to Melkor and the Balrogs. That Melkor "in his beginning [he] loved and desired light, and the form that he took was exceedingly bright" lends itself to why the Balrogs "adhered to him in the days of his splendour". That Balrogs are somewhat paradoxically both flame and shadow may also be symbolic of Melkor's not only corrupting them, but also of "dampening" them: "But the lesser brightness that stands before the greater becomes a darkness. And Melkor was jealous, therefore, of all other brightnesses, and wished to take all light unto himself." I also infer that Melkor's corruption / dominance of the Balrogs was 'complete' and that their wills were tied into his: "The other had now achieved a unity of its own; [...] It had little harmony, but rather a clamorous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes." In this way, they could be a parallel to the Nazgûl for Sauron: utterly incapable of defying his will, but thus also lacking in the ability to think and act outside of it. That would further the concept that much of Sauron was an imitation of Melkor. Side thought that if Gothmog is to Melkor what the Witch-king is to Sauron, then someone like the Mouth of Sauron is to Sauron probably what Sauron was to Melkor; a highly capable, yet autonomous, agent.

[@ChristianProtossDragoon]

So Morgoth's Balrogs are like his Nazgûl? Interesting way of seeing it.

[@DeaconFrancis]

The most accurate depictions and explanations of Middle Earth and Tolkien Lengenderium I've had the privilege to view. You are truly a devoted Bard and true to Tolkien's legendary myth.

[@TheRedBook]

Thank you for the great feedback :D

[@DeaconFrancis]

@@TheRedBook You're welcome. It's all of us viewers that should be profoundly thanking you. I've watched and listened to many commentators who have attempted to explain Tolkien's writings, but most fall short of the mark. That's not a judgment against them, but rather an understanding that anyone who attempts to talk Tolkien Lore is up against a monumental task... for the man himself is a Legend. Yet you so adequately and accurately explain Tolkien Lore as if you were his grandchild who sat on his lap hanging on every word. Thank you again, for helping all of us understand the most complex of legends... the world of Tolkien... that has ever been written.

[@Enerdhil]

Yes. Steven is a true Tolkien scholar despite not having a paper degree.

[@Phoenix-King-ozai]

Balrogs are my Fav ! They saved my ass from that b-itchy spider

[@rickstorm4198]

Great work yet again, my friend.

[@TarMody]

The difference in the way it was corrupted caused different motivations on the Balrogs and Sauron. This difference in the corruption of the Balrogs and Sauron probably also explains why Durin's Bane did not come directly under Sauron's rule after Melkor's exorcism.

[@cgallagher4501]

Thank you - as always interesting, thoughtful and thought provoking. Tolkien was of course heavily influenced by his faith and Christian theology- but it is in his creativity around that spine that he is most interesting. Balrogs as the earliest likeminded followers of Melkor and fire spirits therefore makes perfect sense. Thanks again

[@goodkingmike]

Great episode:D Can't wait for the Feanor story....one of my top 3 Tolkien characters, too 👍

[@TheRedBook]

Definitely going to be episode 5 so I will have that up in October :)

[@LeHobbitFan]

Aaaaah, finally a good way to start off the week! 😌

[@TheRedBook]

Maybe it will ruin someone's week!

[@LeHobbitFan]

@@TheRedBook One can only hope 😔

[@Enerdhil]

@@TheRedBook Yes. I now know that my dream of becoming a Balrog will never come true.😢🤪

[@Ghostsiouxtech]

Your skill in production and sense of taste, not to speak too lightly of the well thought out presentation of knowledge/analysis, is seriously metal.

[@brendav8967]

Another great video! Loved it!💕

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks again :D

[@brendav8967]

@@TheRedBook You're welcome. One of the things I've always wondered about and I've never heard anyone talk about is why dont Balrogs talk or communicate with people since they are Maiar in their core. Unless I missed it I dont think I've ever encountered a Balrog in Tolkien's writings that talks. 🤔

[@andrewfanner2245]

Very interesting. I was struck by the idea that spirits aligning rtro Morgoth, whether at the start ort subsequently, seem to end up as fire spirits in some manner, the reference to Saurton "wreathing himself in fire" now makes more sense, as does the usual explanation for Gil galad's fate, being burned by the heat of Sauron.

[@misterwhalrus7334]

the flame that nurtures, brought unbearable by hatred. In that regard Sauron and balrogs are similar, the heat of their hate coming off them

[@Enerdhil]

I find it fascinating that only 5-7 Maiar chose to take the form of Shadow and Flame and the whip as a preferred weapon.🤔

[@danieldeclue1466]

My personal head Canon for the differences between Sauron and the balrogs, is that the spirits who would become balrogs chose to manifest themselves as fire and Shadow because they explicitly came to Arda with the express intent of causing as much destruction and corruption to the world as possible, whereas Spirits such as Sauron or even Saruman had the aspiration of interacting with, ruling, and manipulating it to suit their own ends. Simply put, some people wish to win the game by playing it ( Sauron and Saruman), While others intend to win by sweeping everyone's pieces off the board, or flipping the table it's on I suppose (balrogs)

[@Davlavi]

This channel deserves way more views. Keep up the great videos.🙏🙏 for the algorithm.

[@TheRedBook]

I agree, let's get the channel some views :D

[@Enerdhil]

I'll go further and say that The Red Book deserves far more subs! 😁👍

[@gandalf8216]

The secret to killing a Balrog is to not fight them using brute strength. You can knock them off into an abyss, for example. See Glorfindel, an elf. But they tend to take you with them into oblivion, the Balrogs. You can't really destroy a Balrog without dying yourself.

[@His_Name_Was_King]

Kinda weird where our minds go when we think of demons. Never does it occur to us that real demons might be absolutely beautiful in form.

[@TheRedBook]

A good point. It's a bit like perceptions of Satan being a red guy with a pitchfork instead of a fallen angel. Demon just has modern connotations associated with monsters.

[@His_Name_Was_King]

@@TheRedBook same thing with what we call Aliens 👽....for all we know aliens could be in microscopic form not little green men.

[@specialnewb9821]

@@TheRedBook We also see how Morgoth and Sauron both became more terrifying and less fair the longer they were evil, so depictions of them as monsterous may be thematically appropriate as well.

[@LordTelperion]

@@TheRedBook I think in the Graeco-Roman world demons were just spirits called upon to do certain tasks in classical spell-craft, obviously were made evil with the rise of Christianity.

[@marc-antoinecusson3119]

You know that demon is à dérivation from the greek Daimon; who were good and bad "spirits". The bastardisation/corruption of the Word, and concept, came with christianity. My question is: what do you mean by "real" demon?

[@darrendin2050]

Happy to see this video, mate!

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Well done as always! On a similar note, the old English word from which Tolkien got “orc” is also translated “demon”, which makes a lot more sense when you know the original version of how they came into being. Also, just a minor point but in Greek, the “ng” combination has a hard g, not a soft one as in English “angel” but rather like in “angle” (and yes I’m now being deliberately confusing just to highlight the linguistic nipickery I’m engaging in 😂).

[@TheRedBook]

You know, I have no idea why I said it like angel, when I am well aware of the figure Angelos in Greek Myth and know how to say that name😅. Not paying close enough attention to the script!

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

@@TheRedBook lol it happens to everyone eventually

[@TheRedBook]

I usually do alright! Thankfully it wasn't a Tolkien name. I can't be bothered with people emailing me to say I'm saying something wrong. Have you ever had that? Such a weird thing to do! Also for your original point about demon, it is a very good point and reflects on what I said about fallen spirits, corruption. Orc being "demon" fits well. I'll bring this up in my response video to make people aware of it too.

[@Fetecheney]

CaN wE geT pOweR RaNKiNg VidEO oF baLrOGS? In all seriousness, I appreciate your approach to the lore. A thought I had for the Balrogs being associated with fire, maybe it was more a description of their personalities than alignment with an aspect of creation that caused them to join together with Melkor in the beginning. Like fire, needing to grow, consume, experience sensation and dominate than acknowledge the need for structure, stability, love and collaboration as well to balance it out. I find it so rewarding to think of evil as good principles that are corrupted or unbalanced in some manner. Because a fallen angel is only fallen when "God" condemns their intent or actions. Is ambition evil? Is consuming evil? Is the desire for growth evil? We all know the answers to those just as Eru knew. But Melkor could not surrender his desire to control and own all of creation. We all need to find balance.

[@TheRedBook]

Gothmog has +3 strength when another Balrog is within 10 feet! I agree about Tolkien's evil figures in the Legendarium. Even Balrogs for a time (or 'before' time) wouldn't have been volatile and hostile figures turning from the path of Eru. Melkor too. Everything. But it raises interesting questions about creatures like Orcs. So much room for debate and what evil truly means in Arda. Why I love talking about these figures.

[@Fetecheney]

@@TheRedBook It's no wonder Tolkien never definitively answered about Orcs, leaving a healthy dose of ambiguity. Being trusted as a reader to find my own meaning and questions with room left over for mystery is refreshing. Especially how most content feels the need to have to have an answer to everything. If you always have a straightforward answer, then you never sharpen your ability to question.

[@cherub3624]

I see I've found a fellow "power scale" hater, at least when it's applied to Tolkien's work. Glad to see someone else's noticing that unfortunate trend on other channels.

[@pCeLobster]

@@cherub3624 There was obviously a heirarchy but a lot of fans want to interpret it in a very pedantic and video gamey way.

[@varyar77]

Very informative video. It got me wondering if there are more fire spirits like Arien, ones who didn't fall into darkness like the balrogs did. I'm sure there were and I like to imagine them facing off with their fallen brethren in the War of Wrath.

[@anthonyprezioso8115]

Excellent commentary, looking forward to hearing more. I appreciate the biblical references that you allude too, I think Tolkien ‘s saga and stories always allude to the good or God verses the evil , demons (balrogs) etc. Although Tolkien said it was not a “religiously “ based fantasy tale, I am convinced it was his faith in God that helped him write this epic. Probably because of what he saw and experienced in WW1 and his circle of friends, C.S. Lewis in particular. I know this is well known , but just thought I’d share . Take care, God bless

[@theMAN3554]

Best channel on the proffesors work. Keep it up friend! Love watching these before bed time.

[@DmytroBogdan]

Only its "professor's" work

[@theMAN3554]

@@DmytroBogdan hahah thank you Sir

[@scottm9605]

The balrog in the pj films was cinematic but I always return to Tolkien's description and I think they should have stuck closer to it. Tolkien associates it with silence, when the Balrog comes forward it is a an unseen presence, the drums stop, Gandalf's spell is undone and hope seems to fade. Then again later it is a barely seen presence within a great darkness, a shadow within a shadow like a man but greater. The flames only leaping up when it goes in for the kill but still more like darkness incarnate than a giant fire monster as it struggles with gandalf on the bridge the darkness encircles him and gandalf is a small frail form only just visible, nearly totally blotted out. That sequence should have played like a horror movie, not a monster movie.

[@gandalf8216]

I agree. To my mind's eye, Durin's Bane in Moria moved like a shadow through shadows, like umbra and penumbra, that caught fire when the Balrog physically manifested itself, giving it a dual existence in spirit and body. Kind of. It also satisfies the debate regarding its wings to me, not being literal wings but shadows that spread like wings.

[@DmytroBogdan]

I wonder how that scene would look like now if filmed closer to source and with modern CGI

[@gandalf8216]

@@DmytroBogdan Probably worse, if you excuse my cynicism regarding current filmmaking.

[@DmytroBogdan]

@@gandalf8216 I mean yes, but one could dream, right

[@gandalf8216]

@@DmytroBogdan I kind of got it through vr180 of the second Hobbit film, when disembodied Sauron jumped like a shadow from wall to wall. I am somewhat satifisied by what my own imagination came up with, and sometimes, our imagination is all we got. Right?

[@baystated]

Thank You. I learned that the balrogs the the thrall of Melkor's even so early the song of the Ainur, and that is why they are what they are and who they are.

[@tonyhinrichs1869]

Great video, it’s a special one for me the Balrogs are one of my favorite villains in the Legendariam so much so I’m in the process of getting the Durin’s Bane vs Gandalf tattoo!!!

[@joseraulcapablanca8564]

This was very good stuff as ever. Balrogs corrupt then incarnate, Sauron incarnate then corrupt is the easy way toe remember the difference, good that you point out the beauty of the balrog in their original form. There was just one thing, you said that Sauron was attracted to power at the cost of others. I feel like indeed “at the cost of others.” Is an attractive element for Melkor who desired always and only dominion, Sauron was attracted to power, in spite of the cost to the others, much like Saruman later. What do you think? Thanks Steven and keep up the good work.

[@fr.andygutierrez5356]

Superb… simply excellent! With the Balrogs having harkened to Melkor’s music from the beginning, is there any indication in Tolkien’s writings of the relationship between them and Sauron, either before or after Morgoth’s banishment? Not only was Sauron of a distinct nature, but he also “came onboard later,” so to speak.

[@DmytroBogdan]

As I understand Balrogs weren't controlled by Sauron but they both served same master

[@annamnatsakanyan4040]

Superb analysis, thank you, Steven! 👏👏👏 And interesting idea about the two themes of the Music reflecting the thoughs of Eru and Melkor. I have always imagined these two themes to represent the Children of Eru, Elves and Men. I mean, they, too, came with the Music. Elves with their endless sorrow and Men with their short and repetitive lives.

[@sainiharika]

Omg such a deep intuitive intelligence flowing 🔥🔥🔥

[@williamafton348]

I wonder what Tolkien would’ve thought of Jackson’s designs of Sauron, the Balrog and Smaug? I really love their designs, Sauron looks really intimidating and terrible, Smaug is gigantic and magnificent, the Balrog just looks so great, the fire and darkness, the presence it has, the sound design is excellent, using a cinderblock dragging on the ground with a roar and fire cracking is just so creative. I know Christopher Tolkien didn’t like the movies, but I wonder what Tolkien himself would’ve thought. I really loved the Balrog in Jackson’s films, it’s so badass. Just imagining an entire cadre of them flanking Morgoth is awesome and terrifying, the idea of them being dropped into Gondolin off the back of a Dragon is goofy but still really cool. I’d love to see an adaptation of the Silmarillion one day, I just really hope it’s nothing like the Amazon Rings of Power series though.

[@grantaitken253]

Hi Steven, another fascinating video I know you don't share Tolkien's metaphysics and theology. However ironically I think you do most convincingly manifest Tolkien's evangelion; that if we are bound like Morgoth in Angainor in the prison of materialism, that perhaps like birds on the horizon giving mariners hope of shore. There just might be something beyond the walls of the prison. Thus myths are not 'lies... breathed through silver' as Lewis had it but rather the radiant light of primal art seen through a glass darkly. Perhaps Authority chooses his champions with a wry smile. Thank you.

[@IanHeins]

Nice work dude

[@davelaff73]

Thanks!

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks again David for the generosity :) I appreciate it!

[@danieldeclue1466]

I've always loved the concept of balrogs. Anytime I've ever spoken to anyone about them people always think that because the istari are the same species, that Gandalf could have turned into a balrog himself when he fought it?? LOL I don't know where people get that idea, the bodies that each maia chooses is specifically geared towards how they plan on interacting with the world. Balrogs are able to be so fearsome and horrifically dangerous because they never intended to come to Arda to interact with the children. They came to destroy to burn and darken. So it makes perfect sense that a balrog would generally speaking probably be far more dangerous than their counterparts

[@GOATALLUgaming]

Love your work dude! Do you know where I can find Phil Dragash's reading of the Silmarillion? I would pay an arm and a leg for that version but I can't find it anywhere.

[@TheRedBook]

Thank you :D and this channel is the only place you'll hear Phil reading parts of The Silmarillion .They are commissioned pieces for the channel and only appear in 3 videos at the moment but there will be more in the future.

[@GOATALLUgaming]

@@TheRedBook Thanks for the reply! I absolutely adore his reading style so looking forward to hearing more in the future!

[@DarthCaedus7]

Makes me wonder if a balrog could choose to reject Melkor and and join with another of the Valar in much the was Sauron chose to reject Aule

[@cherub3624]

It's an interesting concept to imagine Sauron not actually being drawn to the music of Melkor in the beginning. I've wondered before if Melkor imparted a portion of his own power/essence into Sauron in the same way he did so to the world itself, or somewhat in the same way he did with dragons, because Sauron does seem extremely powerful for a Maia, even being without the one ring, and having been destroyed multiple times, still able to dominate the mind of Saruman. It almost seems like he gained his higher status seemingly because he had a more free will than the balrogs who were so in tune with Morgoth that perhaps they had maybe some difficulty taking independent action.

[@TheRedBook]

Hello! I will respond to this comment in the Appendices video coming up.

[@colindunnigan8621]

So, the music of the Ainur was a conflict between The classical romantic and a renegade atonalist and their respective fanbases? :) Sorry, I'll see myself out...

[@DmytroBogdan]

"end of individuality and creativity" well, that the music of Amazon

[@billiegray9109]

Great channel love your content!

[@WhoIsCalli]

Great episode

[@john-paulgies4313]

"...until the public finally sided with the servants of Morgoth." 😱😱😵

[@captainidiot4301]

Morgoth really saw a charizard and was like "yoooooooooo!"

[@Enerdhil]

Wow. What a great ending, tying everything up with a bow at the end. I am just glad that you could see the "Christian" concept of the word a "demon," which is purely spiritual. I know the world tries to put a face on demons but their terror in their spiritual form is enough, me thinks.

[@ahriskof1]

Hey I’m new here and I love your videos already. I have a question and hope you or any of your fans answer it. In the film we see saruman pushing Gandalf and the fellowship to go into moria and Gandalf wasn’t very keen on going there. Did Gandalf knew about the existence of Durin’s bane in moria and was he meant to fight the balrog and kill him?

[@gregk2369]

I like the idea of lesser and greater balrogs. This allows the fall of gondolin to stay true to the narrative and yet not diminish the heroism required to defeat the greater balrogs. I know Tolkien did not specifically define things this way but his thinking on the matter was continually evolving. I don't think it need strain imagination that Melkor also would have twisted lesser 'spirits of fire'

[@nickolas.vicente]

I like the Gnomes better than the Noldo 🤷‍♂️

[@docopoper]

One thing I've always wondered about balrogs is why they seem so much less cunning / ambitious than the likes of Sauron. It seems like every time we see them they are either filling the role of military commander under Morgoth's direct oversight or they are hiding away in Moria with seemingly no greater plan. I don't want to underestimate their intelligence because they're probably still far smarter than your average mortal, but I find it notable how much less autonomy Morgoth seems to give them when compared with Sauron.

[@tombaker4998]

Less cunning than the likes of a dragon too. And part of Morgoth’s corruption must have been the removal of tongues.

[@specialnewb9821]

They are highly intelligent: Durin's Bane defeated Gandalf's first spell on the door with whatche specifically described as a "counterspell."

[@nickolas.vicente]

Sauron presented himself as Morgoth returned, at least to his servants. I think it speaks more to the intelligence of the balrogs, whereas Sauron was as Gandalf names him, the "wise fool."

[@docopoper]

@@specialnewb9821 Well, I'm not arguing that they lack the wisdom and authority to use words of power. They helped design the universe, of course they have the intelligence / wisdom that comes from that. My point was more about the fact that none of them seem to have tried to become dark lords, or autonomous lutenists like Sauron. Durin's Bane may have the wisdom to use a counterspell, but he also just kinda sits around in Moria with no obvious plan.

[@TheRedBook]

Hi Nin, I'll respond to this in my Appendices video.

[@kirandeepchakraborty7921]

Wonderful

[@LifeofHum]

Thank you so much!

[@alexneill8338]

The comparison between Balrogs and Sauron is not something I'd ever considered before. It's like the difference between aligning with evil at the first opportunity because you are organically drawn to evil and nothing else, versus choosing to align with evil further down the path of your existence because you've identified it as the wisest choice to further your ambitions. Does that make him more evil then the Balrogs or less evil? Or just a different type of evil...?

[@TheRedBook]

Hi Alex, I'll try to get this one answered in my Appendices video in a couple of days.

[@marcod53]

goddamn i respect your commitment to the topic at hand. The first bit about the evolution in the narrative is just 🤌

[@istari0]

For some time I've wondered about the relationship between Sauron and balrogs. Their paths to joining Morgoth and their reasons for doing so are quite different. When Morgoth was imprisoned by the Valar, did the balrogs acknowledge Sauron as Morgoth's 2nd in command? Why didn't Sauron and Durin's Bane form some sort of working relationship? Was the latter unwilling to be subordinate to Sauron or did Sauron perhaps not view the balrog as being reliable enough?

[@Telcontar86]

Sauron was running things while the Valar had Melkor locked away (before the destruction of the Trees) so I'd assume that they'd follow his orders until Morgoth needed them to escape Ungoliant, then Morgoth was in charge again (obviously lol) I don't think Sauron would be able to "dominate" a Balrog without his Ring enhancing him (maybe not even then) but yeah, if they had a similar goal I could see an alliance, possibly. I'm of the opinion that Sauron did know about Durin's Bane through the orcs that lived in Moria. Durin's Bane tolerated them, and heck Sauron might've sent more to it as a sign of good will, as it were. Durin's Bane also served a purpose where it was, kind of like Shelob. A threat to prevent the rising of a great Dwarven kingdom that would oppose Sauron.

[@istari0]

@@Telcontar86 It's not clear from what I've read how the balrogs regarded Sauron and my question is did they unquestioningly accept him as being in charge until Morgoth returned (and I don't even know that any of them knew Morgoth would return) or was it more of a rivalry. Keep in mind, Gothmog the Lord of the Balrogs was still around at this time and that Suaron's ultimate aims were not actually the same as Morgoth's. Sauron began as an extraordinarily powerful maia. His ability to dominate or influence other beings should not be underestimated. Now, by the time Durin's Bane reappeared on the scene, Sauron was much less than he had been. Whether that's enough to explain why Sauron never did much regarding the balrog or if there is more to it is really part of the question I am asking. Certainly Sauron knew the balrog was there. Presumably the balrog at some point learned of Sauron's presence in Mordor.

[@Enerdhil]

Great questions. I hope Steven answers them in his next Appendix video. Morgoth was imprisoned for THREE AGES. That is a long time for Sauron to breed the Orcs and build up Angband, but what can Balrogs actually do because start fires and kill things? Three Ages is a long time to just "chill."

[@Enerdhil]

@@istari0 There were no recorded wars or battles during the three Ages that Melkor was kept in the Halls of Mandos. The Balrogs would not have had to be under Sauron's "authority." I would guess that they were useless in helping with construction and tunneling. I think they probably just hit the off switch and lay dormant for three ages.

[@specialnewb9821]

I am endlessly fascinated with the relationship between Sauron and the Balrogs. Sauron was more an administrator who could fight at need rather than a military asset. Morgoth DID leave him in charge and not Gothmog but absent grant of authority how would that relationship have worked out in the 2nd age? Gandalf's worries about Sauron and Smaug seem to imply more cobelligerence than command. How much more for a Balrog and what of the effect of the Ring?

[@walkwithoutrhythm9858]

So I would like to know how you feel about the narrative choice of the Shadow video games? Do you as a Tolkien fan like the direction they took the lore for their story? I've only partially played Shadow of Mordor, and my experience with Tolkien is only slightly more in depth than your average person that watched the movies. Are they considered 'canon'? If they aren't how do you feel about them? I've been listening to your videos while at work for a few weeks now and I love Tolkien. I own many of the books, (they're on my Reading list, sadly not my Read list just yet). Thank you for taking the time to explain the heavier lore, it makes it much easier to process the information.

[@TheRedBook]

Hello, I think I I will be responding to this question in a bit more detail in my Appendices video - it should be released by the end of the month :)

[@cherub3624]

The Red BEWK!

[@TheRedBook]

Your membership badge is getting very decorative!

[@jamiemitchell4042]

Here my pal jis sent is this - Fucken hell mate, you know your stuff!!

[@25gramsofbluesky33]

Tolkien pretty much did what a writer should do. Gandalf fought goblins and did little tricks. He was powerful in ways but never seemed that great until the story unfolded. When the challenge came, no way? Gandalf and the Balrog had to have this confrontation. From the hobbit till this, its a master stroke in writing. Even if RR Martin disagrees. 😂

[@TheMarcHicks]

In my own head-canon, I always imagine the Balrogs as numbering in the double digits. If only because less than 7 kind of severely diminishes Gothmog's title of "Lord of Balrogs". I feel like the true number would be closer to 12-15, maybe even 20....but no more than that.

[@TheRedBook]

I wouldn't agree that a smaller number diminishes the title. Couldn't it make it even more impressive? Out of these powerful creatures, this one is their Lord? Saruman's title wasn't diminished despite being Head of an order that contained only 5 members including himself.

[@Brecf2p]

Great video as always. Is there a dual nature here? Some of The Ainur being embodiments of nature or the ingredients of the world itself AND being angelic or demonic agents while others are reduced to only one of these.

[@quinngros5651]

Sounds like Classical versus Rock-and-roll.

[@cavetroll666]

maybe do one on ungoliant?

[@ironblue4593]

When watching the movies I always thought that Balrog was just a powerful mindless monster. So they have intelligence and they are very loyal to only Morgoth. Just have questioned if they were stronger than Sauron and would they follow him after Morgoth was defeated, if most of them weren't destroyed

[@Telcontar86]

The movies hint at it being more than just a mindless beast, but yeah they could've done more to get it across than just a few expressions here and there. Sauron was more powerful than any of the Balrogs, just not in the ways they were powerful; Gothmog would likely kick Sauron's ass in a physical fight, but not in sorcery imo

[@Cypress77]

Hell yeah dude

[@psazani]

so the wings...I am not sure what the confusion is here. In FOTR, the fellowship wonders if the fell beast is another Balrog. Fell beasts fly and have wings, which I assume would be prominent. So this made me sure Balrogs have wings.

[@TheRedBook]

Interesting, I read that differently. They don't wonder if its a Balrog, they say the feeling reminded them of a Balrog. Frodo says that its colder. They are talking about the Ringwraith, not what it's flying on. I'll talk about what you said when i cover it though 😅

[@Enerdhil]

Yes. Of course because wings are necessary if you live under a mountain most of your life....🙄

[@dixieflatline1189]

I never viewed Balrogs, or specifically Durins Bane as under Saurons dominion - even if aligned at various times. Balrogs were the higher beings in Tolkiens pantheon. Melkor was also long gone by the third age Sauron’s main power was clearly not physical, it was his abilities to craft, influence & corrupt. In turn his dominance in middle earth was due mostly to races & people being susceptible to corruption or worse, apathetic to the corruption of others. Sauron had power because people allowed him to take theirs. I wonder if Durins Bane & Sauron (minus vast armies & henchmen) had a Streetfighter style fight, would the Balrog actually win? I also wonder who would win if a Balrog & Tom Bambadil squared off 😊

[@shanenolan8252]

Cheers

[@kenbair]

Easy enough to understand that Gandalf and Durin's Bane would have a language in common; they're both Maiar. But in what language would Gandalf address the balron on Durin's span? Why would any of the Fellowship understand such a tongue of the West? If Gandalf's outburst on the bridge were in the Westron, would we expect that the balrog would understand it?

[@Mentallect]

Dragone #1, Ungoliant #2 Balrogs #3...in terms of destructive power.

[@TheRedBook]

If you say so 😅 I'm not really talking about anything related to that.

[@Mentallect]

@@TheRedBook I was not talking about your video's content exactly.

[@Mentallect]

Sauron has some Balrog-like power because his body was able to generate great heat which let him murder Gil-galad.

[@TheRedBook]

Wouldn't say that's "Balrog-like power" unless everything related to heat is associated with them. Does Orodruin hold Balrog-like power?

[@grantaitken253]

A question if I may, could you cover the nature of the Rings Of Power as pieces of magical engineering? As to how they accomplish the task of preventing Elvendom from decaying? My speculation has always been the Sauron knew crafting from Aule and was intimate with the 'Morgoth ingredient' and crucially how it operated. Thus my speculation has always been that the ring craft somehow allowed the Morgoth ingredient to be either opposed by Sauron's knowledge of it's mechanics or it somehow told it to cease it's fading changing and corruption. Thus as the only one with that knowledge and power, ring craft must come from Sauron and he must be the lynchpin. Accordingly the power of the Rings is linked ultimately through The One to the mechanics of restraining the fading. Somewhat like a server bank and the computers running from it. Thus as soon as The One is gone the keystone of the system dies and time floods in?

[@cherub3624]

That sounds like a pretty good theory to how the rings work. That plays into what I assume it means to be a "Dark Lord" meaning the one with that title, has the most influence over the corrupting Melkor element that marred the world, thus giving him the ability to use it to dominate others more so affected by it, or in this case, even prolong it's effects of decay.

[@grantaitken253]

@@cherub3624 Great comment, as I say it's speculation, as I just don't have the knowledge to find references that may imply this is the case.

[@ajaydassani9931]

If you were to depict a Balrog In televised or a movie.. how would you depict them as being?

[@jamief1263]

Balrog’s don’t really seem to have any motivations or aspirations other than servitude to Morgoth. I always wonder what the motivation of Durin’s Bane was, as Morgoth was gone and Balrogs don’t seem to have any aspirations of ruling. I doubt that a Balrog would serve Sauron, not would that seek to conquer middle earth.

[@kirandeepchakraborty7921]

Do Balrogs have Wings?

[@nickolas.vicente]

What happens to the balrogs after they die? I imagine they suffer a fate similar to Sauron and Saruman, but I've not yet found a solid answer outside the realm of speculation. Along with that, would the balrogs, or Sauron, regain their full stature to fight in the Dagor Dagorath?

[@Enerdhil]

That's a good question because, as Steven said, their ëalar do not need to exist in hroar, which can be killed. We no that Sauron could reembody while the Ring existed. We also know that Saruman's spirit was blown away after his death with an understanding that it couldn't reembody. So could the Balrogs reembody? I hope Steven gives his take on that question.

[@nickolas.vicente]

@@Enerdhil could just be an easy answer, yes it would be the same. But I tend to overcomplicate these things. I just wish we had more on the Dagor Dagorath, might be my favorite part of the mythology.

[@Enerdhil]

@@nickolas.vicente I am sure that Eru will give the good guys advantages. Plus if any of them are killed, they will be reembodied after the war. It seems to me that all the bad ëalar and fëar will be sent into the outer Darkness forever, but who knows for sure?

[@billholder1330]

Great episode. I was transfixed. I wanna find me a Balrog Girl! hehe

[@TexasTimeLord]

Maybe you could have mentioned that the Muslim governor of Bagdad had 2 Mongol emissaries beheaded as an answer to Kahn''s peace deal

[@judowrestlerka]

Who did they serve before Melkor? Aülè, I'd think.

[@TheRedBook]

No one, they would serve Melkor first.

[@judowrestlerka]

@@TheRedBook but the Maiar all served a different Valar unless you are saying that they ORIGINATED as Maiar of Melkor.

[@TheRedBook]

Yes, that's what I'm saying in the video. Balrogs did not serve another first, they attuned themselves to him. He is as much a Vala as the rest and others served him without having to serve another first.

[@Enerdhil]

@@TheRedBook Yes. You mentioned that in the Ainulindalë part of the video.

[@temmy9]

Its my belief that gandalf was also a spirit of fire.

[@theradgegadgie6352]

Balrogs sound more like nephilim than fallen angels.

[@pjcremin]

The nazgul are a pale imitation of the balrogs as sauron was a palecopy wanting to be feared like morgoth and middle earth was only a facsimile of a larger beleriand.

[@christophmahler]

Fine textual analysis. Even if the writings of Tolkien hadn't that 'harmonizing' effect upon readers - pondering a literary theme can grant insight not just into an authors views and character, but also into the cultural traits of his time, some of them may have been overlooked elsewhere or completely obscured as they don't fit an established narrative. A question may be where else do we find a similar depth of sentiment after the fading of the 'Inklings' - to maintain continuity within increasing fragmentation ?

[@jimbombadill]

it seems like most maias could shapechange...although the balrogs seem to be have "content" with their being...even if they shift slightly within that form from fire to shadow. As you take up many spirits where drawn to Melkor in the beggining...where did all go? It opens up for the speculations about dragons, mighty orcs and other beasts taking these forms ...but in that case they seem to have become one with those incarnation.

[@oldmangranny5oldmangranny56]

What if the balrog in Moria got the one ring and Narya?

[@adriansulek2698]

Glory to The Lord Melkor.

[@yadavpooja098]

Where are subtitles? I can't understand you fully. 😑

[@TheRedBook]

Don't know why they haven't updated for this one. I'll manually add the file again later today when I am home.

[@yadavpooja098]

@@TheRedBook thank you, you're my favorite tolkein channel. More support to you!

[@TheRedBook]

Thank you :) I will make sure to reply to your comment as soon as I have added the subtitles for this one.

[@TheRedBook]

Available now!

[@yadavpooja098]

@@TheRedBook thank you. You're too kind ❤️

[@robertjrmatt1223]

Happy hobbit day

[@vergil8833]

Loud and endlessly repeated? So Morgoths song was literally black metal. Literally Burzum.

[@threatassessment216]

The red book was written by yeung to explain his explorations with inner demons I change your name 😢 It would be like naming yourself the phonebook but only discussing Italian food recipes WHAT 🤷

[@TheRedBook]

Terrible analogy. The Red Book is a book that exists in Tolkien's Legendarium. That's clearly what I'm named after.

[@davidpnewton]

Most loyal of Melkor's servants? Certainly yes. Most destructive? No. Sauron was the most destructive.

[@TheRedBook]

Opinions.