Gandalf & The Witch-king | An Enhancement of Power

[@jaeluxe]

Let’s not forget Gandalf told Gimili that he (Gandalf) was the most dangerous person he will meet unless he is brought before the seat of the dark lord. So in my mind Sauron is the most “powerful” followed by “Gandalf”.

[@TheRedBook]

As always, I end up reading a quote I should have included after the video was made. This is that quote :P !

[@michaelstark8720]

He told only if he was brought to the seat of dark lord and who do you think is near that seat? Witch king and Mouth of Sauron and Sauron above them

[@TheRedBook]

@@michaelstark8720 Bit of stretch. That line means being brought to the person who occupies the seat, not those who are near it.

[@michaelstark8720]

@@TheRedBook Not by traditional sense. Always before seat of power was his most powerful underling. Like in Bible when Jesus returns with voice of Archangel. Although there is many myths, only Archangel was Michael

[@TheRedBook]

@@michaelstark8720 Before the seat means Sauron. Your reading is an awkward and unneccessary one. He's not talking about Ringwraiths or Lieutenants, he's talking about the Dark Lord.

[@jamief1263]

I agree entirely, I believe the Witch King’s speech to Gandalf is just an attempt to intimidate him, which is the Nazgûl’s main power. If they had fought, I suspect that Gandalf would not have slain the Witch King, rather he would have defeated him and he would have returned to Sauron. Merry and Éowyn we’re always meant to kill him. Merry had the only weapon on the battlefield that was made with the specific intention of killing wraiths, and therefore was the Witch Kings deadliest enemy, yet the Witch King paid him no attention as he thought him too weak.

[@ItsSVO]

Tbf Gandalf would’ve slain him and the prophecy would still be complete given that Gandalf isn’t a man either. I agree though that merry and Eowyn were supposed to defeat him as they did.

[@wavesailor19]

Never considered the Witch King's actions at the Great Gate of Minas Tirith described as a "vulgar display of power" especially when compared to Gandalf until this video. . . a spot on and thought-provoking description. And great imagery too - especially enjoyed Gandalf facing the Balrog, had not seen that one before. Another master piece added to TRB quiver. Well done and thank you, sir.

[@TheRedBook]

Glad you enjoyed! Yes, that image is a great one. This is the 4th video I have used it in. Used it all the way back in my first Questions & Answers video "Did Gandalf the Grey die?", "Of Gandalf's Speech to Durin's Bane", and more recently it was used in "Did Sauron Hoard Mithril?"

[@wavesailor19]

Right on and great content, as usual.

[@Incestrul_Lust]

REVEEEEEEEEEEENGE-UH. I'M SCREAMING REVENGE AGAIN.

[@jorgearetakis9688]

Vulgar is usually related to things , sayings and beings etc which are not holy/ sacred or blessed I'd say they're vile demonstrations of power but vulgar is not fat behind

[@AClockworkMelon]

This is not just my favorite LOTR commentary of any kind, it's also one of my favorite KZbin videos. The movies are good. But the books are beautiful.

[@Zenocrate]

Another subtle, deep and perceptive analysis, and analysis of the books! I’m beyond exasperated with all the ‘Tolkien’ channels on KZbin which seem to have imbibed all their ‘Tolkien’ through the flashy, shallow pixels flitting by on a screen. Thank you for this, another bulwark against stupidity.

[@Keltrick-]

Your channel is criminally underviewed. Absolutely stellar analysis, production, and editing. Subscribed for life. I gotta thank SmoughTown for bringing me here.

[@TheRedBook]

I've pretty much accepted I'll not be a "big" channel but I do have great supporters and I don't feel restricted when it comes to the content I can make - which would probably be a thing if I was a huge channel worrying about becoming irrelevant if I didn't upload for a week. I like just doing my thing :D

[@android584]

At 60k views I think his channel is taking off.

[@TheRedBook]

Not really. Most videos get 3 to 15k.

[@istari0]

Wonderful video! As a huge Gandalf fan who also finds the Witch King a very interesting character, I love your analysis of this; many of the points you make are things I have thought about and it was great to see all these points brought together. It's fascinating how the two were changed from the time of their 1st encounter on Weathertop to their 2nd encounter at Minas Tirith. The Witch King was arrogant and boastful while Gandalf was just the opposite. The Witch King no more understood who he was facing than Saruman had back at Isengard.

[@jameskent5347]

Gandalf’s laugh at Saruman’s attempts of persuasion. Reminds of Tulkas who laughs in combat. Also Gandalf is my favorite character. His wisdom, kindness, and courage are things I strive to be. In many ways Gandalf was my role model.

[@chucknorris202]

For me its Aragorn, though Gandalf is also one of my favorite characters; Aragorn is a bit more relatable, being a mortal man, though with a great destiny and a great deal of spiritual and physical power. Aragorn is essentially the epitome of what it means to be a Man. That's why I like that character so much. He really is a role model. Gandalf is one too of course.

[@jrpipik]

Gandalf also has a wry sense of humor. Gotta love that!

[@jameskent5347]

@@chucknorris202 Totally understand what you mean about Aragorn. He is the epitome of a great leader. He didn’t command from a distance he led the charge. He respected his men and honored their sacrifice. If all kings of old were as honorable and just as Aragorn. Monarchies might’ve lasted longer in our own history.

[@docopoper]

As usual that was far more interesting than I've heard from any other Tolkien KZbinr. And it just serves to highlight further how bad the movies were at adapting Gandalf the White.

[@TmHudsonArt]

And the Witchking.....my fave character and he was reduced to an annoyance as opposed to the terrifying dread he was in the books.

[@Zenocrate]

Agree. So much praise is heaped upon Jackson et al, but to me they never recognised ‘where the heart of the original lies’. And because they did not understand what Tolkien was actually about - and hence what the threat of the Nazgul is - they mangled both the Flight to the Ford and the confrontation between Gandalf and the Witch Ki by at Minas Tirith’s gate.

[@TheRedBook]

I'm now taking a fairly relaxed schedule-free approach to videos, which means that I will make fewer cuts to scripts - resulting in longer videos like this one if the subject warrants it. I'll also make those videos I delayed for so long in order to try and appease the fickle algorithm gods. I have some very interesting topics I'll be covering as we get into 2023. As I said at the end of the video, I will also be focusing on creating content for members. This will range from shorter videos to full videos on certain topics. Check out Patreon below if interested or join as a KZbin member: www.patreon.com/theredbook

[@danieldeclue1466]

I'm so glad that you addressed the misconception that people seem to have about the witch King not standing a chance against gandalf. Yes, Gandalf is spiritually a maiar, but the story had already proven several times over that the nature of something does not guarantee it's success or victory. Were this the case, then glorfindel would never have been able to kill a balrog. Ecthelion would never have been able to kill gothmog. Elendil would never have been able to kill Sauron. Grima wormtounge would never have been able to kill Saruman. Even though all of these beings are Angelic in nature, they are all still bound, to greater or lesser extents, by the rules and limitations of the physical world of Arda.

[@king_pauper4749]

Everything about your videos just keeps getting better and better. As many have stated your viewership is criminally low compared to obvious amount of thought, prep and VERY well done conclusions you come to. Please keep doing what you're doing. Lore research is a passion and your uploads are absolutely brilliant.

[@TheRedBook]

@@king_pauper4749 I don't plan on stopping any time soon but I am already bored of trying to please the algorithm. My channel has low views and subscribers but I do enjoy making content - which is more important to me.

[@Brecf2p]

I always thought power in Middle Earth to be based on the theme and identity behind the figure. The Witch king is a figure of fear. Early in the books he is one of the 9. Indistinguishable from the other 8 and they are pursuing characters who don't appreciate what they are. The fear them but this fear is understated. When WK is given a name and becomes distinguishable the reader has to ask themselves why. Why does this figure have a name, the 9 are scary but this one is even scarier. In gondor everyone knows of WK so the baseline fear in the later books is even greater than when its based in Hobbiton. Everything builds up and up. Add the prophecy that no man can kill him then this he is not only scary but death at his hands is inevitable. Same with gandalf. He is one of 5, only 3 are given names and he is merely an old man early on but more and more is revealed about the Istari his presence increases. Great video

[@TheRedBook]

Nice thoughts, I like that analysis. From faceless figure among many to established individuals.

[@franciscordon9230]

After years of devouring what I consider high-quality Tolkien Legendarium content, this video is easily one of my all-time favorites. It's so excellent and well done.

[@OmegaWolf747]

Thanks for this video. That scene in the third movie really POed me, even the first time I saw it. No way in Hell can the WC break Gandalf's staff.

[@mrhyde5250]

Thanks for the gift membership. This is such a terrific channel! Indispensable to lore apprentices who want to get to the root of the many questions and mysteries that Tolkien gifted to all of us. I hope it continues to expand and get all the attention and respect it's creators deserve!

[@TheMercian13]

Excellent video as always. You’re a gem in this community that should be seen by more.

[@fearthekilt]

I always enjoyed the chapters that included the Witch King. He is the ethereal embodiment of evil. His very presence in the lore lends a truly sinister quality to the tale. Wonderful character is an essential piece to the telling of the tale. Great commentary, enjoy your content, keep posting!

[@edclark7755]

Thanks for this. First time I've watched one of these. Enjoyed it! I loved the Jackson films but have never been able to understand why the confrontation between the two on the ramparts of Minas Tirith was so badly and purposefully botched by Jackson, when pretty much everything else in the first three films was spot on. Your take on the relative strength of these two seems right to me. Need to watch more of your stuff!

[@MattZeefy]

I used to read your answers on Quora and learned a lot about Lord of the Rings from you. I am really happy to see you started Youtubing, since I don't use Quora any more. Keep it up Steven! Subbed!

[@TheRedBook]

Oh yeah, Quora was great for a time :D Always nice to hear from people who used to be on there too :)

[@SekuACDC]

Great video analysis, as always! It also made me think on another more or less unrelated question that I had in my mind about Gandalf and his kindling of hope in Theoden. In fact, in the King of the Golden Hall chapter, when Gandalf heals Theoden, he also briefly talks to him secretly. When I read this I first assumed that he had shared the quest of the Ringbearer with Theoden, but later on Gandald also says that he cannot reveal to the king their secret hope in Frodo yet. So, I can't make up my mind on what did Gandalf actually say to Theoden in order to raise his spirit? Did he reveal to the king only part of the quest or did he speak of something totally different? Sometimes I like to think that Gandalf somehow revelead to Theoden that a glorious death awaits him, considering how that seems important to Theoden. Sorry for the super long question, but it was bugging my mind and I wish I could get your opinion on it.

[@Tommy-he7dx]

This one peeks my interest. I've always wondered why it was that the Witch King Actively Fled From Glorfindel but was more that happy to seek out Gandalf.

[@TheRedBook]

One thing I don't actually talk about in this video

[@TJDious]

With Glorfindel, he was a nuisance in the way of the objective of capturing the ring. The hunt for the ring was a stealth mission. When he encountered Gandalf he was prepared for battle, and the conflict was not a distraction from a greater objective.

[@Tommy-he7dx]

@@TJDious I'm Talking about the Whole universe and not just the "LotR"......Way back in the histories, It was Glorfindel that had the foresight that led him to predict that "no man can kill him". During that period, the Witch King actively fled any sort of encounter with Glorfindel. Like Gandalf, Glorfindel was returned after killing a Balrog and was somewhat "Elevated" by the Valar and given the title "emissary of the Valar"....Glorfindel was one of the Badass' of Middle Earth......But was he more of a Badass than Gandalf because of the Witch Kings fear of him, Or is it he wasn't aware of the true nature of the Istari, or is there other reasons why if fled from Glordindel but actively sort out Gandelf.

[@treydixon5399]

@@TJDious I would agree that the Nazgul had a plan that would bypass Glorfindel. But remember after the ford rises up: Gandalf says they were confronted by one of the first-born, unveiled, causing them to panic. That completed the riders' defeat. I would suspect that they had instructions not to battle elves if they didn't have to ("rules of engagement", so to speak). Glorfindel was not unknown to them. They would have remembered him fighting the Balrog. Combine that with the Red Book video on what Sauron thought of the wizards, it might be that the Nazgul were actively afraid to fight Glorfindel without their master, but thought they could take Gandalf if the situation was right. After the inconclusive fight on Weathertop, they probably had to reconsider that as well.

[@TJDious]

@@Tommy-he7dx Wow, I completely forgot about that one. Maybe the Witch King was or feared he was less powerful at the time with Sauron being out of the picture?

[@thebrotherskrynn]

Great video, the whole notion of arguing over power and of over demonstrations of power in the way that one might imagine in DnD or something is not at all what one finds in the writings of Tolkien, so that it adds an extra layer to his works. Recently it seems that more and more people though wish to have the discussion of power dynamics so to speak, so that it is rather difficult to disabuse them of the notions that the fantasy genre has convinced them of. It seems strange, but in recent days I've come to think of Tolkien's works as not belonging to the fantasy genre but rather to that of mythologie. This video highlights much of the differences, and how different not only Olorin is, but also the Witch-King from other depictions of wizards and magic-wielding characters across the panoply of novels we've observed over the years since the publication of the Lord of the Rings.

[@samueldimmock694]

Well, Lord of the Rings was mainly inspired by mythology, so I think you're on to something.

[@lawrencemick1665]

This is my opinion. I always loved the books. I patently waited along with many others I'm sure, when someone made these books into movies. When I heard Peter Jackson was going to bring this to the screen I was very excited. One could only hope it would be as close to the books as possible. Turned out I was very pleased with with Jackson's work. There were some changes but one could at least understand the reason why. However one thing I could not buy was his interpretation of the meeting of the which king And Gandalf. I believe Tolkien would not have appreciated what took place in the movie, to me it was way overboard. He should have been loyal to the books here. There was no reason to leave the impression that the which king could have defeated Gandalf. Jmo. Thanks for the videos.

[@snafuart]

👌 Excellent video and I can only agree with fellow comments stating: Deserves far more attention. Found you via Chris' discord, gladly subscribed.

[@franciscordon9230]

Excellent as always. Thank you!!

[@Crafty_Spirit]

Hi Steve 🖖🏼 What a gift, this video has to be one of your best, and that you surpass your previous gems is the best compliment I can think of. Regarding the remark I made in the lifestream, it seems that "Tharkun" was also the name of a Turkic prince in the 7th century. Not sure if you ever took a public piss at Kings and Generals, but I surmise they may have subscribed to your channel as they were looking for ideas on how to convey the legendarium through their Wizards and Warriors channel.

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks! I'm proud of how this one turned out. The work was worth it :) And I'd tell them what I've told other channels, I'll happily write tolkien scripts for you if you credit me and share my channel on your much larger channel :D.. Oh and payment lol. Channels all seem to be happy doing everything but sharing my channel. I think they want it to seem like they've come up with the ideas themselves. Still, it was nice of them to even subscribe for a while :p

[@Crafty_Spirit]

@@TheRedBook I see, but so far they havent copied something from your work. yeah, would be nice if they hired you, their videos contain strange mistakes and the maps are often messy as well 😅 And I read someone commenting roughly this "thanks Wizard & Warriors, the guys from RoP should have learnt from you" xD

[@TheRedBook]

Yeah they make very nice videos. I'd love to be involved in some way. I tend to notice a few mistakes too which bring them down.

[@LuisAlbright]

Brilliant and compelling as always

[@stingfan16ify]

Very well done and really compelling viewing! Great job!!!

[@SuperRKO92]

I am so glad this video appeared on my home page. It’s clear that you have a deep understanding and love for Tolkiens work and you add a layer of depth most can’t! I can’t wait to go through your videos

[@mena94x3]

Great vid!! 🎉🎉👍🏼👍🏼

[@Syntheconductor]

Another wonderful discussion. These are so great because they remind me of the discussions I have with my own friends. No need for who would win power rankings, I prefer hearing the why (like you did here)

[@anchuisneoir3973]

Great stuff. I'd say that the Nazgúl definitely knew of Gandalf. If the Mouth of Sauron had knowledge of him "Have we not heard of thee at whiles, and of thy wanderings, ever hatching plots and mischief at a safe distance?", I'd say that the Nazgúl would have too. Also when the Witch King addresses Gandalf as "Old fool", I always took that to be a criticism of Gandalf and his previous deeds in general, not just because he dared stand before the Witch king.

[@anchuisneoir3973]

Also would say that a focused Sauron led to a focused Witch King at Minas Tirith (Here Sauron was making his decisive strike) whereas an uncertain or otherwise distracted Sauron led to a bunch of Nazgúl not necessarily on their A game at Weathertop

[@granterickson9105]

Another solid addition. Can't wait for the next effort

[@TheRedBook]

Should have a Podcast episode out this week then I already have the next longer video planned !

[@Warraci]

Excellent video, good sir.

[@TheRedBook]

Thank you :D

[@cgallagher4501]

Thanks - beautifully and thoughtfully done, as always.

[@Enerdhil]

Another fantastic video, Steven. Sorry it took me so long to watch this one. It was well-worth the wait!

[@josephraffurty9293]

Wonderful video again! Really enjoyed this analysis of two of the greatest figures in the Lord of the Rings. Exploring the narative and thematic purpose of Tolkien's characters is really what makes them so interesting, and you do it so well.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Finally a new video! I’m not quite as confident as you that Gandalf would have won if he and the Witch King actually clashed. I think his lack of fear is less related to confidence than to the fact that he knows he is the only one who can face this enemy and if he dies doing so, that’s the way it has to be. But I do agree that his admission to Denethor is more a statement of humility and ignorance than of fear or certainty.

[@Enerdhil]

So, you don't think Gandalf was given any special powers or protection from Eru Iluvatar? No way Eru lets his boy get killed by the Witch King.

[@55tranquility]

This is an amazing video thanks 🙏. I've always found the Mouth of Sauron fascinating, Tolkien writes he is a Black Numenorian so have always taken that as read. I agree, as a Kingsman or descendant of Kingsmen he would have always served, worshipped or been under the thrall of Sauron and willingly so. I agree he began to serve Sauron directly on the rebuilding of Barad-Dur late in the third age. So he was a pure blooded Numenorian, a man with a longer lifespan than normal men as well as being taller and stockier. He didn't have a ring, it wasn't needed he served him willingly. Mordor was Saurons stronghold and base of operations, but that didn't mean Sauron intended to make the whole of Middle Earth like Mordor. He did not make Numenor o to a smoking land of pits and black ash. In fact Saurons main objective was the ordering and control of Middle Earth to his design via the control of everyone else. At times Sauron had control of nearly all of Middle Earth, so would have had to have many evil men who wanted to serve him to be able to run Middle Earth, these men all remained men, the same as the Easterlings and Haradrm.

[@cavetroll666]

Very good content I listen at work 🙃

[@andersgustafsson5533]

I thoroughly enjoy your videos. You are so knowledgeable about the Tolkien lore, and you have a good voice and pacing of the words. In this clip, however, I have a few things I don't 100 % I agree with. . You said that Gandalf never faced Sauron face to face, and though it is probably likely, I guess there might have been opportunities in Dol Guldor? Or maybe not... I'm also a bit hesitant to agree that the witch king must have been upgraded after the first encounter with Gandalf. Maybe, but I don't think there is that much evidence. The leader of the Nazguls have been proficient in witchcraft for centuries. I'm sure he must have displayed words of power/magic many times before so that people have witnessed it. After all he was called the witch king. And surely he has wielded magical weapons many times before. I think it was just that a flaming war sword fitted the occasion (better than for example a morgul dagger). I do agree, however, that he did pose a threat to Gandalf, especially as Gandalf the gray. As you said, maiar have been challenged by elves and even a dog. And Saruman, though he had lost his rank at the time, was killed by a human - and that human was much less powerful than a ringwraith. Gandals and Saruman were in Middle Earth in the bodies of old men. It is my belief that any man or orc could have killed killed Gandalf the gray at any time, they were just not likely to succeed. Gandalf the White seems a bit more over powered for anyone to be able to kill him at any timw, but he was still in the shape of a man.

[@drewp9819]

Excellent analysis

[@TheRedBook]

Thank you :)

[@HyperspaceCafe]

This was really really good 👍

[@davidlittle7418]

Just thought I'd say thanks! Really enjoy the videos. Just wanted to add a point, I thought I remembered reading ...somewhere... that the Istari were Maia with their powers bound. Eru was hesitant to again match a force of evil with power as the downfall of Morgoth wrought such great destruction upon Middle Earth. They were there as guides & organisers as much as much as they were figures of power. Gandalf the White's greater power was perhaps a loosening of those bonds placed upon him?

[@KazgarothUsher]

Loved it! Very insightful observations on the exercise of power and the subtleties of such. Thanks :)

[@joseraulcapablanca8564]

Great stuff Steven, the cock crowing at dawn is my favourite thing which happens in the book,a simple and direct message about the triumph of hope over fear. I am not sure about the relative power of these two protagonists. However, as demonstrated on the bridge. “ You cannot pass.” As shown in the confrontation at Orthanc,, as with Theoden, as with his final confrontation with Denethor, Gandalf radiates authority, his wisdom allows him to see and speak undeniable truth. Had they fought, who knows Gandalf is no man and therefore the possibility of him destroying the.king existed, Allowing Eowyn and Pippin to destroy him is a much more satisfying ending. Odd that We know the name Sauron, a name he permitted none of his servants to speak, whilst the name of the witch king and the mouth are both lost in the mists of time. Thanks and keep up the good work.

[@DisturbiaWolf13]

Brilliant analysis, with the right amount of nuance. Personally I lean to Gandalf falling to this empowered Witch King, as Gandalf’s power (even enhanced) is not in violence or destruction, and the Witch King being wholly enslaved to the will of Sauron, would not be sent to confront Gandalf if doing so would be fruitless in Sauron’s mind. I see Gandalf’s fearlessness as a manifestation of his faith. Sort of an Abraham & Isaac thing, Gandalf can do nothing but be true to his duty & oppose the Witch King & anything else is immaterial, out of his hands as it were. As it happens his faith (not just in God, but in his allies) is proven sound & the day is won. Gandalf doesn’t need to be able to beat the Witch King in a punch-up to defeat him, and saying that he totally could anyway seems somewhat gratuitous.

[@DisturbiaWolf13]

Also, if Gandalf would have defeated the Witch King anyway it renders the prophecy & serendipitous circumstances of his actual defeat redundant, not to mention completely negating the threat pf him in that moment of confrontation.

[@IMSwimmer19]

This is a great video! I'm very curious about the Ringwraiths' actions, travels, and function in the Second Age. We know quite a decent amount about how Sauron used them through the Third Age (Angmar) and the days leading up to the War of the Ring. How did he use them immediately during/after their corruptions?

[@BenFrayle]

Unknown. Presumably they kept their jobs as Great Kings of Men until forced out by a successor or summoned to serve the Dark Lord directly.

[@Irish_Pete]

On the point of what the wraiths thought of the old man... Thoughts... Frodo saw the "pale king". Gandalf spoke of how the wraiths saw Glorfindel as "an elf lord revealed in his wrath". Frodo also saw Glorfindel as a bright figure, Gandalf refers to "how he is on the other side" (or something to that effect). So I think the wraiths would also have perceived Gandalf as more than an old man. Maybe more as he was "on the other side". "Felt the coming of my anger" could be perceived power, not on a mortal plain. With respect to enhanced power, this may be simply that his power was enhanced in an area that the witch king/sauron did not value (arrogance of evil). The taunting is McGregor'esque trash talk while big bad has his back... Rant over

[@Irish_Pete]

whos Guessing

[@Irish_Pete]

Who is the real sausage king of Chicago

[@briHammer40K]

One of the only and biggest things to annoy me about the film trilogy was the witch king putting gandalf on his back and breaking his staff... really annoyed me that did the other thing was the decision to not forge Aragorns sword until the last movie because in the books the sword of elendil turned the tide at more than one battle

[@JamesColeman1]

Well done

[@jonathanleake6176]

As always love your videos man! What audiobook do you use so I can listen to them.

[@keyboarddancers7751]

Details are in the lengthy text description under the video.

[@OmAlexander1111]

Thank you. 🫶

[@alanmike6883]

Great as always man. Sorry I replied late. Bit of a video backlog. I do like your assessment of the situation. In my opinion Gandalf would've won anyway. The witch king may have been endowed by Sauron but Gandalf was endowed by eru himself as his representative to the valars plan. Plus Gandalf is not a man either...

[@doctorlolchicken7478]

In a sea of immature Tolkien commentary where misunderstandings and oversimplifications feed on each other and grow stronger through the retelling, it’s good to have one channel with the maturity and intelligence to understand where Tolkien was coming from.

[@Zenocrate]

My sentiments exactly!

[@CombatePracticoUniversity]

Good video

[@Hero_Of_Old]

Yeah I really hate the extended scene where the Witch King destroys Gandalf's staff. Every version on youtube of the Rohirrim arriving shows that scene 😂 Just cut it, its not good. The theatrical cut is much better for the most part.

[@logtothebase2]

I Remember re reading the confrontation a few times and the proceeding as I couldn't understand how it had concluded without a physical attack and likely fatality. My conclusion is different in that if it come to it, the Witch King would have prevailed as a vessel of Sauron if in a test of sparky superhuman magical ability, but that Gandalf's power was more in wisdom and the actions put in place by mustering Rohan and It's King and his servants. Its clear in other passages that even if the White council were assembled together in full might they could not go up against Souron without using the ring ( That would have ultimately possessed the wearer to evil themselves)

[@android584]

The more I think about it, the more it makes sense to think of him as the "wizard king". It's never explained why one man is such a formidable General just because of a ring. A wizard however wearing one of the nine rings would be a good explanation for his drive and accomplishments given that the human Nazgul aren't described as having a lot of free will.

[@DanPoffenbarger]

i love your vids! thanks! my brain farts on this topic - Gandlaf THE GREY defeated the Balrog, i never considered the Witch King anywhere near as powerful as the Balrog. haha - can't wait for more vids from you!

[@paulsmith3966]

How do you interpret the flames running down the Witch King's sword? ...Were they produced by him, to increase the fear he wields? Or (as I suspect) were they produced by Gandalf to melt the Witch King's weapon? For not only does the Witch King immediately retreat, he has also switched to using a mace when we next see him swoop against Theoden.

[@samueldimmock694]

The way it was presented in the book, I'm pretty sure it was part of the Witch King's display of power. However, now that you mention it, I wonder whether Gandalf was using some of that subtle power of his to influence the Witch King, leading him to display his power in a way that would harm him in the long run. Then again, it may just have been that the Witch King was using the best weapon for each task. Maces have more power and do better against armor, but they are also less maneuverable and thus might not be the best choice against an unarmored warrior with a magic sword and enough skill and power to withstand the Nine for several hours unaided and at night.

[@samueldimmock694]

Having thought about it more, I don't think that Gandalf was trying to weaken the Witch-King's sword, for the simple reason that it likely wouldn't have worked. Sauron would have known that Gandalf possessed Glamdring, and we know how well the Balrog's sword did against it. He may also have known that Narsil had been reforged, and that sword was shown capable of cutting through steel in the mines of Moria. Possessing great wisdom, though of a limited type, he would not have been foolish enough to send the Witch-King to assault Minas Tirith with an ordinary sword: it would have been fortified with powerful magic, maybe even crafted by Sauron's own hand. A simple flame would do nothing against such a weapon, and the use of greater power could not have been hidden. Perhaps Gandalf was using fire, but not to damage the Witch-King's weapon. Remember, the Nazgul do not love fire, and fear those who wield it. On the other hand, perhaps the Witch-King used fire to demonstrate his increased power and authority: the very thing which he once feared now comes at his call and serves him as a weapon.

[@foxyshabazz]

You are right about it being a favourite passage. Such a bad-ass way to end the chapter. It always sent chills down my spine... "Great horns of the north wildly blowing. Rohan had come at last.” I agree about your thoughts on 'thinking in role-playing terms', it can only diminish the wonder. I call it 'monster-manualling' and it is an unfortunate consequence of statting things out for a game. It is particularly harmful when applied to the Cthulhu Mythos, I tend to feel. Unimaginable cosmic horror reduced to numbers on a page. Though it is a good way to make Tolkien seem mundane and ordinary, too. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of RPGs, but I do feel sometimes something is lost when we think in this way.

[@nathynorthy6916]

I'm not sure Gandalf was certain to defeat the Witch-king AT THE TIME THIS CHAPTER WAS WRITTEN (sorry for the blockcaps). As you've pointed out in previous videos, Gandalf was originally conceived as of the same race, nationality and order as the Witch-king: they were both Númenórean men. And Gandalf had fled from the Witch-king in this past, admitting he'd met his match in him and so genuinely feared him. The problem, as with a lot of Tolkien's lore, is that he only came to a final conclusion over what the wizards are towards the end of writing LotR or possibly shortly after its completion. The terms 'maia' and 'Istari' never even appear in the story of LotR (although they do in the appendices), Treebeard says "young Master Gandalf" even though Gandalf as a maia was unfathomably older than Treebeard, and so on. The story about Gandalf fleeing his peer the Witch-king is removed from the eventual canon by the author (but does kind of reappear in the form of Gandalf fleeing from the Nazgûlon Weathertop). However, Gandalf does seem genuinely perturbed about the prospect of combat with the Witch-king, as he confides to Pippin - and he's not bluffing or just being humble when he admits this. This all strongly suggests that they were equally matched in the original conception (which was still in place as the first draft of the scene was being written) and even that the Witch-king was actually the favourite. This all ramped up the suspense of this scene, which is maintained in the story, but is kind of sabotaged by the final conception of wizards as maia and Gandalf as a supercharged maia who should easily have been able to swat aside a mere wraith. As is often the case with Tolkien, it was the evolution of his conceptions and subsequent efforts to make everything in his world consistent with them that generated additional issues, which in turn required resolving to maintain the drama and/or sense of particular scenes in his tales. However, by pre-empting the duel between Gandalf and the Witch-king through the arrival of the Rohirrim and Gandalf's need to rescue Faramir, a) the anticlimax of Gandalf zapping the Witch-king into oblivion without even breaking sweat, or else b) contradicting his ultimate conception of wizards by making the two combatants equally matched, were both in the end neatly avoided by Tolkien.

[@lawrencemick1665]

That's the one thing that I was most disappointed in Peter Jackson's movie. Gandalf would have smoked him. Gandalf said earlier that he was more dangerous than anyone save Saruon himself.

[@thedarkmasterthedarkmaster]

This is a question that I've always wondered. It is said that Morgoth's descent into evil was caused by his desire for the Flame eternal, in order to be like illuvatar and create his own life. This can be seen in his many twisted mockeries such as Trolls, Orcs, and other such things. I wonder if things would have been different if he had been allowed to make something with true life in much the same way Anue made the dwarves or Yavanna made the Ents or if his desire for control would have always led him down the path of evil. I have my own thoughts on the matter but hearing what your opinion is something I think could make at least an excellent longer form video.

[@samueldimmock694]

I don't know about Morgoth specifically, but I do have a few insights on his biblical inspiration. There are essentially two ideas about redemption in Christianity. One, which Tolkien's good friend C.S. Lewis strongly disagreed with, was that in the end, all things will be redeemed, including Satan; but the other is that, God being perfectly good, everyone who can be saved will be, meaning at the end of the day there will be no-one of whom it can be said that they would not have been lost if this or that had or hadn't happened. I'm not entirely sure which one Tolkien believed, but if it were the latter, then the answer to your question is almost certainly no. If you liked my thoughts, would you mind sharing your own?

[@TarMody]

Based on Glorfindel's prophecy, it is conceivable that Gandalf would not be able to physically defeat the Witch-king. Of course, the place and influence of Narya in this encounter should also be examined.

[@TheRedBook]

Glorfindel's words weren't rules. They spoke of who would defeat the Witch King, not could.

[@Aquamentus11]

I always thought that the nazgul would see the Unseen World since they existed in it. For that reason, I just assumed that they saw that what was on Weathertop was not just an old man.

[@TheRedBook]

You could be right but we have to remember that Gandalf is in the very real body of a man and that it isn't just a shape he's taken. It may be that this incarnated form hides his true nature. Who knows?

[@villekuronen6242]

@@TheRedBook ''Who knows?'' perfect answer for so many questions about Tolkien's writings

[@Enerdhil]

Do you mean "the spirit world?" As in, they can see ëalar and fëar?

[@samueldimmock694]

@@TheRedBook They could sense his anger, and knew that it was something to be feared. That seems to indicate that they could perceive something of Gandalf's power, and thus probably his nature, as the two seem heavily linked in Tolkien's writings. How much they could perceive, I don't know, nor do I know how capable Gandalf the Grey was of hiding his power--Gandalf the White seemed quite capable of that, but that may have been a new ability.

[@shayooooo]

When it comes to failure to comprehend people, the witch king's lapse in this thought for me is well displayed when he boasts that no man can kill him, only to die by the blade of a valiant woman. To an extent, this same ''underestimation'' of people is done by Sauron, as he never really acknowledges the hobbits,, and it ultimately creates a window into the destruction of the one ring. Maybe it was fated for Gandalf to have this much faith in these folk, because twice in his lifetime they have played monumental roles in the history of Middle Earth

[@TheSaneHatter]

"You can't win, Witch-King: if you strike me down, you will only make me more powerful than you can possibly imagine."

[@robertphillips9017]

Is it possible that Sauron “occupied” the WK in a manner similar to Sauron ‘occupying’ (or taking control of) Theoden. In which case the WK essentially was Sauron in some way?

[@TheRedBook]

Saruman didn't really do that, it was just a movie thing. The Witch-king being some avatar of Sauron is a theory I've read but not much evidence for it in the text.

[@beatleblev]

Almost all of Gandalf's vulgar magical displays occur off "screen". His fight at Weathertop, the White Council vs. the forces of Dol Guldor, his fireball (?) force blast (?) sweep of the orcs and the magic lock on the door upstairs in Moria, and the more magical parts of his battle with the Balrog are all told second hand as if Gandalf doesn't want us to see him do it in person at least during his time as the Grey.

[@TheRedBook]

Indeed, which adds to his mysterious angelic nature. As if the people writing down the stories just heard rumour of his battles and conflicts - no one witnessing the 'real' displays of power that we read about "off screen" as you say.

[@beatleblev]

@@TheRedBook The refrain "as if..." or "it seemed..." accompanies most of the descriptions of magic in LotR. Perhaps the Hobbit authors inability to fully comprehend what is happening in these moments compels Tolkien to turn his magic into similes.

[@circedelune]

If it had come down to a battle between the two, I believe the witch king would have retreated. Gandalf could not kill him, but neither could the witch king kill Gandalf. His threats were an attempt to instill fear and despair. That is his main weapon throughout. But Gandalf does not fear him, therefore his power is useless against Gandalf. Gandalf would win, because the witch king would retreat.

[@lawrenceburchett7411]

I agree, that was Eru himself who sent him back, and unveiled the wisest of the Istari.I am fearful of Sauron, My Lord Manwe , that is why you must go ...

[@disgruntledtoons]

The Witch King's power lay in his ability to forcibly inspire fear. He was brought down by someone over whom fear had no power.

[@Aquamentus11]

I don't remember you doing one on Saruman's ring. Did he actually make one and what was its power?

[@TheRedBook]

I haven't yet. I will cover this in a Saruman video.

[@kevinkottom1526]

How this genius writer "Tolkien" decided to name 2 of the main villains names that sound almost identical, is beyond me. I can hardly tell which one someone is talking about, or who is who half the time.

[@TheRedBook]

The names came from translating other languages "in world". Its a coincidence that they seem similar. He also probably thought people could distinguish between two characters.

[@chasejordan5676]

Someone’s not a fan of the best fantasy writer in human history

[@kevinkottom1526]

@@chasejordan5676 I am, just seems like a glaring mistake. Always messes me up when I hear someone say the names but can't quite tell them apart.

[@nickolas.vicente]

I've never read all of these goetic effects as the means of leading to some flashy battle. Even if Gandalf had to defend himself, the situation would lead to someone else challenging the Witch-King. I wonder could Gandalf have saved Théoden?

[@choke9270]

It is also worth noting. Glorfindel is the only other being that The witch king feared. He did ride away from him when the prophecy was made. Glorfindel and Elrond also washed the 9 away on the Anduin. But yeah: other than those two. The Witch king is the most mighty being in Middle Earth. Bombadill notwithstanding. 😏 Edit: and Sauron. (Obviously)

[@Marcus-ki1en]

The Witch King's power, though enhanced, was earthly in origin. It came from Sauron who manifested power from middle earth. Gandalf's source came from heavenly power - from Eru himself. A failure of being evil is often being arrogant and not realizing when tides have turned. I am not sure the Witch King would have engaged Gandalf in direct combat at the gate. I think he would have withdrawn a bit and sent in his shock troops to overwhelm the defenders and force Gandalf to retreat.

[@BenFrayle]

What do you mean by "Sauron manifested power from middle earth"? Sauron and Gandalf's natural 'power' came from their being Maiar, with occasional boosts from Eru or perhaps Melkor.

[@Marcus-ki1en]

@@BenFrayle I think Sauron's power came from residual evil power from Melkor. Neither of them could create, only corrupt and destroy.

[@BenFrayle]

@@Marcus-ki1en The whole of Arda was corrupted with Melkor's influence, but I don't believe it helped his servants in any metaphysical way. He could directly imbue his allies with some of his power, as He did with Ungoliant, but presumably this was no longer possible after his exile.

[@BookofGates]

Also the confrontation between the witch king and Saruman

[@THEADAMCLASSIC]

Does anyone else think when The Nine fought Gandalf on Weathertop that they were testing him and seeing what he could do?

[@jesusaguilarjr6655]

I hope you enjoy reading the fall of Numenor.

[@alanvatcher8374]

Gandalf the Grey, when faced with the Balrog, might have fallen to the temptation of the ring and taken the one from Frodo to overpower Durin's Bane. Instead, he sacrificed his own self to buy the escape of the company. He trusted to a plan beyond himself.

[@colindunnigan8621]

I am not certain I agree. Gandalf was a Maia, yes, but incarnate in the form of a man. If Saruman's ultimate fate is any indication, should not Gandalf also be vulnerable to physical injury? This is assuming, of course, that Gandalf the White is still bound by the same restrictions of the physical form he occupies as his earlier incarnation. Also, if the Witch King is not a threat to Gandalf in that moment, I feel it robs the scene of its power. Could I be wrong? Of course! But that's part of the fun! As an aside, it's telling that the confrontation at the gate was more faithfully adapted in the old 1979 Rankin Bass animated version of RoTK, than in the Jackson movie. Yes,, it's somewhat restored in the director's cut of the latter film, but the scene still lacks the power of the written depiction. Of course, I may be being a bit too hard on PJ because I never got over the way he butchered Denathor (grrr!).

[@TheRedBook]

The ability for Gandalf the White to be harmed physically is a debate I've been involved in for a while but when I say that I don't think he would be harmed - it isn't me saying he CAN'T be. It's that he would stop it happening. If weapons could not harm him, why would he defend himself against the weapons of his friends when he makes his first appearance? But look at how he handles the situation. He defends himself from three skilled warriors without breaking a sweat. Plus he has a divine purpose for being in Middle-earth. It's why I think he's very safe charging into battle without armour, shining in white as if he's some beacon the enemy should attack. He always survives and finds himself free from harm at the end of battle. He's essentially an angel involved in a mortal conflict. Still, physical harm could harm - I just doubt it would unless faced by an evil he wasn't planning on facing - such as Sauron.

[@Enerdhil]

@@TheRedBook Exactly. Gandalf the White was under Eru Iluvatar's protection. It was never luck rewarding the bold and brave.

[@sainiharika]

Masterpiece n deep occult wisdom of subtlety of good’s power n authority. I feel Gandalf acknowledges witch king to be dreadful n his match.

[@25gramsofbluesky33]

When Gandalf's staff broke in that ridiculous film, it was like the Balrogs spell, it nearly broke me. Moronic.

[@Perktube1]

The dead men of Dunharrow kicked butt on the orcs around Minas Tirith. How about a matchup with the king of the dead against the witch king? How might that look?

[@TheRedBook]

That only happened in the movie.

[@tundegordian7273]

I think we were misled by what was portrayed in the lord of the ring where the witch king broke gandalf staff, I think that was made so as to add more thrills to the movie be

[@Davlavi]

for the algorithm.

[@sasstemir]

for frodo

[@innova1335]

Great video, loved the insight.

[@TheRedBook]

Thank you :D

[@singingunbound9705]

Vulgar Display of Power 👍

[@edinscot56789]

It's worth remembering that Gandalf possessed the fire ring, which would have helped him enormously given the Ringwraiths vulnerability to fire.

[@TheRedBook]

It's not really confirmed if that ring enhances anything to with fire itself over it "enflaming" hearts with hope. The Three Rings aren't weapons.

[@edinscot56789]

@TheRedBook As I understand it, they are amplifiers. They concentrate and increase the power of the wearer in a specific way. Gandalf was given the fire ring to encourage the internal fire (courage) of those around him and give them the willpower and strength to fight Sauron (and Saruman as it would turn out), but I think the Balrog battle also proves that Gandalf had a certain immunity to fire-based opponents. I mean, you have to wonder how he wasn't burned fighting it or how his clothes never caught fire, etc.

[@TheRedBook]

@edinscot56789 I wouldn't say immune. When Gandalf returned to his body it was naked. There were no clothes implying they had burned. He was probably burned too but it's said his body was healed when his spirit returned to it.

[@laresial]

I do not agree. If Rohan do not come to Tirith Mines, with Theoden and his Horse just in that moment. The King Wizard with the Power of Sauron in his Eye, will crush Gandalf the White. The Power of Evil, has their moments. If Gosh wish. Gott mit uns. Your Channel is really great. Thank you very much for your help. Probably i am wrong.

[@dreadelectric7745]

Vulgar display of power: love the Pantera reference 👍🏿

[@TheRedBook]

Just a coincidence. I wouldn't reference a band I've never liked ;) .

[@dreadelectric7745]

@@TheRedBook OUCH! 😂😂😂😂 love your content! Keep it up!

[@edpistemic]

It really frustrated me that they flipped Gandalf's encounter with the Witch King at the gate in the third film. I get why, but it was a real failure of consistent characterisation of Gandalf and didn't do the book justice.

[@HagalSkrymir999]

I mean, we also know the Nine were much stronger and scarier in the Second Age, when Sauron had the One Ring on bis finger. But still the Nine including the Witch King could apparently be handled by the High Elves and Numenoreans. And i doubt the Witch King at Minas Tirith was as strong as the one at the War of the Last Alliance and Sauron. Eru Iluvatar i think enhanced Gandalf quite a bit, in the possibility that Sauron could still have gotten the Ring, because i doubt Eru controlled or had decided how things would turn out. I also doubt that he has enhanced Gandalf so much, that Gandalf could simply win if he reveals all of bis power, because in the end the heroics and bravery of the Children of Iluvatar would decide the future. It would be weird though if Gandalf the White could not handle this version of the Witch King. I think, same as with Galadriel, Sauron with the One Ring would have been needed to defeat Gandalf the White. Gandalf and Sauron were the main chess player here at this point.

[@Monkeyboy2457]

I was looking forward so much to seeing Gandalf face-off against the witch-king as it was one of the best parts of the book. Unfortunately, PJ gave us an unmemorable CGI pointless and endless action scene with trolls coming in through the gate instead of the legendary stand-off with Gandalf and the witch-king.

[@shinestar2912]

If Theoden's forces did not arrive at that very moment, the Witch king would have attacked Gandalf along with thousands of Orcs. Gandalf would have been overwhelmed and the city sacked. The Witch king and Sauron did not care about the old fool or any honorable one on one combat to decide the fate of the city. They cared about the destruction of mankind and if Gondor fell then Sauron's goal would have eventually been achieved.

[@lawrencemick1665]

I know Gandalf told Aragon Gimli and Legelos. You have no weapon that can harm me. You will face no greater unless you stand before the dark lord himself.

[@jozf8163]

Music is too loud making the narration hard to hear.... =(

[@TheRedBook]

It's fine for everyone else, what are you listening through?

[@MountainFisher]

"Arrogance of evil" is something you can see in the faces of dictators. One thing I have always been bothered by is arrogance that causes and leads to evil and mocks what it doesn't agree with. It is why I fear the censors who try to hide or warp knowledge of other views than theirs.