The Battle of the Pelennor Fields and the Convergence of History | Down the Hobbit Hole - Episode 8

[@EriktheRed2023]

I pressed the like button as if it were a Hobbit recently sworn into my service, and it was trying to conceal that my old rival was coming to my seat of power.

[@TheLastAxeman]

Meditation on the courage born from despair that Theoden shows brings tears to my eyes

[@chevin0]

I love your analysis of Theoden and the charge. it wasn't about saving the day, he saw death and destruction no matter which path he took, so he opted for a Fingolfin style 'we will die, but we will die hurting them so badly that they don't celebrate the victory'. Do not back a warrior into a hopeless corner, especially not a Tolkien one. They will choose Valhalla EVERY time.

[@istari0]

To me, Pippin deciding to take service under Denethor and what happened afterwards was the defining experience of Pippin's life. He stepped up and showed that he also was 'Hobbit of quality." I think what Théoden and the Rohirrim did was a variant of Estel. It's not what the Elves would think but for the Rohirrim it was still a better thing to do than withdrawing and simply delaying the inevitable conflict. Théoden's dying words even speak that he believes what awaits him was better than it had been before.

[@lordofthehouseofstormcrows8615]

"Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!" -The Witch-King of Angmar- I get goosebumps at this moment, because I know ...the horse Lords are coming.. Great job Mellon. Keep up the great work. ECTHELION! BARUK KHAZAD! KHAZAD AI-MENU!

[@mattmccartney5996]

I too have been lured by the hypnotic pull of the wraith juice.

[@billmcdonough3950]

I like to think that the reason Theoden's galvanizing moment differs so fundamentally from Estel, but has such similar effect is actually something kind of... simple, and yet beyond the ken of the Eldar: This is the hope of _Men._ For the Eldar, there is always 'and what comes next?', even in Mandos, they are not released from Arda. For Men... in some senses, there is only, ever 'now'. Men, as Tolkien was intimately familiar, can never be sure they even have 'tomorrow'. The end could come at any time, and (as a Wise fellow once said) 'all you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you'. This is the time that was given to Theoden. This is his moment of hope-not for victory, not for the goal-but to be the man he wants to be, the King he was raised to be. This is his chance to find not 'victory', but the fulfillment of his purpose. This is the opportunity given to all of his host: to slink off and die, or rise up, and die _well._ Because as Men, eventually... die, they must.

[@henrypaleveda7760]

this even articulates how even that mortality may be a gift. it made enough sense to call it that, but I hadn't thought of such a well articulated reason. The elves always having a "what's next" is as you said what keeps them from really understanding this hope of Theoden's or the hopes of men generally.

[@semi-useful5178]

"With no fucks given you'd be surprised what you can do."

[@DannyJane.]

"When nothing we do matters all that matters is what we do!" ~BTVS

[@owleyes8600]

I never made the connection that Pippin saving Faramir was, deliberately or not, fulfilling Boromir's wish's. It seems like not only was Pippin doing what Boromir would have wanted but sort of finishing his unfinished business, whatever happened in these uncertain times Boromir wanted to make sure his brother would be okay.

[@markus-hermannkoch1740]

Me not either. He applied admirable hobbit-sense in seeing Denethor's state of mind and forsaking blind obedience for actively helping the situation. Blind obedience never having been a strong character trait of Pippin's in the first place.

[@michaelman957]

A beautiful insight.

[@mjlamey1066]

That same passage you read, I'm sure you've already seen it, but for anyone else who hasn't, there's a video on KZbin of Tolkien reading the Ride of the Rohirrim scene at the Pelennor and it's set to a backdrop of the Ride in the Jackson films and listening to the man himself describe Theoden's transition from despair to "fuck it we ball" and then the charge itself goes harder than probably anything I've ever read.

[@pedroc.d.7872]

I've heard that Tolkien recording many times and it still gives me goosebumps. Also, I never recognized the beautiful rhythm of the prose (like a cavalry charge!) until I heard Tolkien's reading.

[@hglundahl]

Thank you! The onerous task of collecting stats from blogs (I have 42), was highly eased this half hour from hearing you!

[@EriktheRed2023]

Clearly, you know where your towel is.

[@xSpiegelschattenx]

I never noticed the similarity of Merry with Aragorn or his association with the lost kingdom of Arnor, but I see it now; he was the one possessed in the barrow after all...

[@gabrielblanchard3921]

Rewatching, the last section makes me think of an exchange from the film _The Lion in Winter._ It's about the family of Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine, and near the end, Princes Richard, Geoffrey, and John have been put in the dungeon and are expecting to be executed by their father. Richard (of "the Lionhearted" fame) says something to the effect of _I'm not going to beg,_ at which one of his brothers sneers. Geoffrey: Fool -- as if the way one fell down mattered. Richard: When the fall is all there is, it matters.

[@longleglarry2720]

You know what's good when GNG breaks out that *Juicy* for the opener.

[@paulrudd1063]

I love your use of language! Elmer and Aragorn having a bro-down! Brilliant. I’m surprised you didn’t talk about Eowyn and her character’s parallel trajectory with Merry. I think in many ways Eowyn is the greatest hero in the story. But Merry is close behind. Tolkien creates the scene with the witch king that is palpable with fear, you can taste the horror. And this is what merry and eowyn confront. Merry has, of course, succumbed to the fear emanating from the Nazgûl before, in bree. But at least here he lashes out and drives his dagger into the witch king’s leg. But then he faints. It is eowyn alone who must stare down this monster. And it is her great love for her uncle and for her people that gives her the strength to do so. This whole scene is about the Tommy, staring into the teeth of the guns on the Somme. The only way to get up and charge into the machine guns was to be a little fey. To give up on life. And though the sacrifice of each man might seem insignificant, compared to the war as a whole, that one blow, struck in defiance of fear and terror and amidst the horror and brutality of war personified… it makes all the difference in the world. Even the craftsman who created Merry’s blade, lost in the distant past, their actions may have seemed futile. But in the end, it made all the difference. And this is Tolkien’s sustaining message throughout the books. No action for good, no matter how seemingly small and insignificant, is pointless. Evil is destroyed, not by the actions of great heroes like Aragorn, but by the unswerving faith and loyalty to duty of the people like Merry and Eowyn, overlooked though they are by the great and the powerful.

[@Strideo1]

"Arise now, arise, Riders of Théoden! Dire deeds awake: dark is it eastward. Let horse be bridled, horn be sounded! Forth Eorlingas! Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken, shield be splintered, a sword-day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor!"

[@shanenolan5625]

Blowing my horn

[@squashedeyeball]

Bless you Lexi! An amazing video. As always, you set the bar at the highest. Loved everything you said! Yes, there were a lot of subtle change that happen during that time. Lots of myths came to life, etc. And it's true that Boromir's loss still played a bit part in this chapter. On a literal note, the whole Siege of Gondor is one of the most realistic and complex portrayal of war. Tolkien gave thought to everything, so it would makes sense with the distances and time passage. And I love that what decided the victory was leadership and morale: all sides were equal in that prospect, with ups and down. A really tough battle that was won in hardship. (Unlike the OP, green cloud of undead :) In the PJ movie, it's like Neera stood there, spammed Animate Dead off screen and hasted all of them).

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thank you good sir! Another clever move he pulled is to make Pippin, probably the most naive of the Hobbits, the focal character, so all the other characters are forced to explain what's going on to him (and to us). (And yes, PJs run was invalidated with off-screen Epickiwhy levels of 🧀 🤣)

[@squashedeyeball]

@@GirlNextGondorhaha bless you Lexi! Indeed, PJ almost got the to level of Trapping Candlekeep, before the ogre ambush :) And you're right. In a way, we were all like Pippin: naive before, wiser after :)

[@mjlamey1066]

Babe wake up! We gotta go down the Hobbit hole again!

[@IbexWatcher]

One of my favorite historical connections/callbacks of the Battle of Pelennor is the parallel between Aragorn’s arrival on the ships with Elendil and his sons out of Numenor. I think Frodo sees both “scenes” in Galadriel’s mirror: in both cases, Gondor’s king arrives on a wind from the sea

[@dynjarren5454]

Always glad I subbed to this channel. Not feeling well today but I've decided to binge watch all the channels vids

[@GirlNextGondor]

Hope you feel better soon!

[@stoner36s]

"She gave me three." Made me cry the first time, makes me cry the 1000th time. Being a Tolkien fanatical purist, the single best scene in the first movie. Theoden's speech in Batlle of Pelennor Fields, best scene in Return Of The King. Gimli's interaction with Eomer in The Two Towers is my favorite passage in the book.

[@louisebrouillette5580]

Lexi, your videos always open new windows of insight for me. Thank you for your great videos.

[@keyboarddancers7751]

Outstanding quality.

[@jarlbregadan914]

This channel is an absolute treasure.

[@TheBrothersArda]

Love the Pelennor Fields, the Ride of the Rohirrim! This is honestly the best part of LOTR and some of Tolkien's best writing (Silmarillion epics aside) always loved the themes of honour, doom and defiant Northern Courage on display in this scene. Loved this analysis as always Lexi, you're a brilliant analyst of Tolkien's literature with only Steven and Joshua as real competitors for the title of best youtuber in regards to this literature. Oh and hope you and the famille are good.

[@PrometheanRising]

Which channels are those?

[@tominiowa2513]

@@PrometheanRising *The Red Book* and *Tolkien Lore* .

[@PrometheanRising]

@@tominiowa2513 Oh yes. Those are both very good as well.

[@TheBrothersArda]

@@PrometheanRising Sorry about that, should have included the channel names after the names my bad.

[@Zarith7480]

Thanks for making incredible Tolkien content that isnt just a synopsis of the events like most channels ❤❤❤

[@eluthiccgol4715]

Saw this right when it dropped!

[@johnberner5320]

I was crying by the end of this video. I'm currently rereading LOTR for the tenth time--I've seen something different in it each time. I never thought of the idea of "Boromir's Ghost" before, but I always assumed that Pippin was the hobbit most affected by his death, given his decision to serve Denethor. I have an idea that Pippin and Merry are both aristocrats, coming from wealthy families. Pippin's father is the Thane of the Shire and the young hobbit comes from tobacco country in the Southfarthing. Pippin has an air of self-importance coming from his youth, too. I figure that at 29, he's the equivalent of a human 18 or 19 year old. Hence, he does some rash things, like dropping the stone in the well in Moria, and stealing a near-catastrophic glance into the Palantir. His maturity increases dramatically, inspiring a need to honor Boromir by pledging loyalty to Denethor. Anyway, good job. This one really got to me.

[@gabrielblanchard3921]

Before now, my only thoughts about Merry and Pippin entering the respective services of Theoden and Denethor were that there was a mild irony in the _younger_ of the two swearing fealty to the older kingdom and ruler; I definitely never picked up on Merry having a special relationship with Aragorn! Or on the foreshadowing involved in his behavior in Bree, either. But come to think of it, that does raise a lot of other parallels between Merry and Pippin and the realms of Rohan and Gondor. As you said, Merry (and Brandybucks in general) have something of an outsider status; indeed, Buckland is technically a march, not part of the Shire "proper," and moreover has maintained some customary memory of the dangers Hobbits used to need to defend themselves against, in both Rhovanion and Eriador ("Awake: fear, fire, foes"). And when you come to think of it, Pippin has got associations that, though in Hobbit fashion, suggest Gondor a bit, or at any rate the Dunedain. The Thain was originally a member of the royal court of Arthedain, lending the office a faint air of Numenor, and Pippin is not only a Took (the family from which the Thains were chosen), but does in fact succeed to the position. And come to think of it, his spirited reply to _Elrond, of all people,_ that he (the chaos Hobbit) would leave Rivendell either as a member of the Fellowship or tied up in a sack -- that's rather reminiscent of Boromir's own pride in Gondor at the Council a few days previously!

[@scottjackson1420]

Great content. The effort and scholarship that you provide us is astounding.

[@michaelman957]

I never connected Merry and Aragorn before. That's a fascinating insight!

[@grantburgess-xt2jd]

One of your most horrifyingly lovely analyses yet 😄 Love your work 💖

[@nigeldepledge3790]

Thank you for another truly thoughtful piece.

[@alexhenry3435]

That was genuinely fascinating

[@ibrahimissaiaawad2888]

Very good comparisons!!

[@keria67]

Thank you for another amazing video! And im so happy your videos finally start getting views!!! You’re content is awesome.

[@kennethbarnett8633]

Wonderfully insightful!

[@joseraulcapablanca8564]

This was great stuff GNG, I love the moment when the witch king is breaking the gate and the cock crows. A moment of doom without reason for hope becomes a moment of eucastrophe in that cock who cares nothing for events in the world. ( This to Tolkien was surely a nod to the cock crowing as Peter denies Christ,his failure. Which turns to the hope for man, his church.) The whole battle is a wonderful passage the dumbness of the sacrifice the courage in defeat it is wonderful as is your work. Thank you.

[@valaraukar_595]

Thank you, GNG, for making my covid episode a bit more bearable.

[@shanenolan5625]

I'm sorry , get well soon.

[@linnharamis1496]

Great video- thank you👍

[@cbrettb]

Great analysis. Thoroughly enjoyed it!

[@shanenolan5625]

Thanks lexi . Had me with the title.

[@totalwartitan5118]

I think a good way to phrase Merry's mindset after Boromir's would be, "I will not let Boromir die in vain." As you said, he's not wanting to waste Boromir's sacrifice and make it worthwhile.

[@gthomashart3926]

Your quote of Aragorn re: legend is deeply evocative of John Tolkien's life work!!

[@jamesnoe7378]

Great video🎉🎉🎉🎉

[@AZjuggler]

"And hijinks ensued" this is beautiful! Thank you for making Tolkien approachable.

[@linnharamis1496]

Thanks!

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thank YOU! Glad you enjoyed it! 🥰

[@markus-hermannkoch1740]

20:58, Gandalf vs. the King of Angmar? Well, we have it canonical, that Gandalf is the second most dangerous thing Gimli may ever encounter, which certainly, at least potentially, includes any Nazgul. Plus, Gandalf, too, is no man, leaving the Witch King vulnerable to the power of prophecy. Finally, after Durin's Bane actually ending up making him stronger, my money'd be on the White Rider!

[@jarrodcarver9001]

Thanks, Lexi!

[@shanenolan5625]

😂doctor strangelove reference.

[@bigsarge2085]

Thought provoking as usual. I think Tolkien writes battles as terrible because of his own experience in the trenches on the Western Front during WW1.

[@billmcdonough3950]

Whenever I read Tolkien's descriptions of the Pelennor, or bodies hewed before the gates of the Hornburg, or of the terrible costs of the Last Alliance or the Siege of Angband, I'm reminded that he lived through the Somme. And I hope that any horrors he carried forward from those days, those pages helped him set down.

[@michaelhart7569]

It always surprised me a little as to why the Rohirrim were so taken aback by their existence and stepping out of legends to walk the green earth under the sun. They Rohirrim believe in Elves, Sauron, Saruman’s ruses, and the ghosts under the mountain. They eventually give Merry a horn they know to come from the hoard of Scatha the Worm. They are well acquainted with dwarves and now meet orcs daily. Yet a mini-human with hairy feet is so surprising? It seems a bit incongruent to me. Yes, Treebeard was surprised to meet them too, but he never did get out a lot. The Rohirrim had migrated from North to South and did not hide themselves away from other peoples.

[@TarMody]

It is interesting that the flight or fight reflex of the organism in times of despair is so close to Estel (despite being opposite at first glance).

[@hauptmannfloete1106]

I believe the Valar or fate had something to do with the time of arrival for the Rohirrim. They arrive in the perfect moment to fall into the rear of the Orcs that are in position for storming the city and incapable to mount appropriate defences.

[@slimhazard]

I‘m not a fan of chastising Peter Jackson for the decisions he had to make. (You try adapting LOTR for the screen and see which darlings you have to kill.) But that said, I thought he mishandled Pippin‘s offer of service to Denethor. In the film, Gandalf is trying to get him to shut up, and Pippin comes across as just a fool of a Took all over again. But it‘s a significant moment of growth for him, the most honorable thing he had ever done up to that point, and Gandalf specifically praises him for it afterward. Peregrin Took, Guard of the Citadel, Thain of the Shire, who discharged his duty to Boromir, saved the line of the Stewards, and endured the gaze of the Dark Lord (without giving away the game). Respect.

[@sequoyahwright]

..."and then they went... Hard. In. Thee. Paint." Haha! Thanks for that, GNG.

[@LordTelperion]

I now see the Siege of Gondor and the passage between Faramir and Eowyn on the walls of the City as an analogy/simile for the Dagor Dagorath. Just like Minas Tirith sits at the feet of Mindolluin, Valimar sits at the feet of Taniquetil. Just as the forces of evil breach the great Pelennor Wall to attack the City, the forces of Morgoth will breach the Pelori Mountains to attack the city of the gods. The battle of the Pelennor Fields mirrors the battle on the fields of Valinor. Just as the Rohirrim arrive in the nick of time (and/or the Army of the Dead), the forces of the buried Numenoreans of Ar-Pharazon will awake and save Valmar from certain defeat. Just as Eowyn and Merry give a one-two punch to defeat the Lord of the Nazgul, Ëonwë and Turin will give the one-two punch to defeat Morgoth (I guess Gandalf would be Tulkas in this comparison). Just as Faramir was the Steward for the true King of Gondor, Manwë is the Steward of the World holding the throne for Iluvatar. And just as Faramir and Eowyn held their breath watching Mordor for the stroke of doom from atop the Citadel, Manwë and Varda will likewise have their moment of fear and clasped hands from atop Taniquetil...until the final eucatastrophe and blessed relief of victory.

[@robingile4301]

Like this one and those characters. Be well yourself gng.

[@stoner36s]

Every time I read or hear the passage of Battle od Pelennor Fields I have to listen to J.R.R. reading it.

[@Valdagast]

Can I just say that I really hate what PJ did with the Oathbreakers? By turning them into an "I win" button, the bravery of the men of Rohan and Gondor is rendered pointless. Aragorn would have won regardless of what happened on Pelennor fields before Aragorn arrives.

[@nolgroth]

Ahhh. The Scrubbing Bubbles solution.

[@Ugliduckie]

This this a thousand times this. I love the movies, but this one change soured my opinion just a bit. Made Fellowship my favorite movie over RotK.

[@PatrickLongblkwhtrbbt]

I disagree. The city still had to hold out until the cavalry arrived. This is no different than the Eomerkenbrand horse charge that saved the Hornburg before

[@BernddasBrotB7]

@@PatrickLongblkwhtrbbt There was absolutely no realistic way Mordor's forces could break through seven levels of fortification within a couple of days. Minas Tirith would have taken weeks or months of bloody urban fighting to fall, if it even fell to assault at all.

[@paulgaras2606]

You’re absolutely right. Not to mention Theoden’s death.

[@konstantinriumin2657]

30:30 They scream "Death" only later when Eomer finds seemingly dead Eowyn. During their initial charge they sing instead

[@Limubi1]

'And then of course they go for it'- a truly devastating summation of the charge of the Rohirrim XD

[@beatleblev]

The Rohirrim seem to be where the Norse themes from the early Legendarium ended up in the Third Age. They are into being drengr, or displaying courage in spite of the doom appointed to them among other ideals. The Norse believed that your day to die was your day to die. Your choice on that day is to choose the manner in which you meet the death appointed to you. You can fight until you die and end up chosen and winged away to Valhalla or die as a victim of age, circumstance (other than battle), or disease and spend a boring eternity in Hel. This theme is evident in Theoden's speech that you quoted and also in his final moments, where his thoughts turn to his father Thengel and his father, all the way to Eorl himself, and that he feels worthy to be in their company having slain the black serpent before his doom fell (literally) upon him.

[@stephenleggett4243]

Lol, who can object to Shrek reference being slipped in. As always, an enjoyable video.

[@shanenolan5625]

These videos are like onions they have layers. ( shrek reference) 😂

[@smillee1957]

Listening now. ❤

[@Lance_33]

Your LOTRs video are always really excellent content!!!!!! I have spent a lot of time reading the original LOTR novels as well as the supplemental texts that fill in the blanks of some of the story lines - I always find your videos to be extremely informative and helpful. I absolutely loved the LOTR movies, but so many inconsistencies and key omissions with the actual canon. I can understand you can only put so much material in a movie, but making major changes to the plot line I do not agree with at all

[@dominushydra]

PJ literally took nothing out of the main plotline. Stop trying to sound intelligent 😂

[@Lance_33]

@@dominushydra I suggest you read the Battle of Helms Deep in the BOOK and then compare to what they showed in the movie - not even CLOSE

[@MiKWebZ]

Thanks

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thank you so much! 🥰

[@EloSportsTalk]

Calling Arwen "Galadriel's scary, witchy grand daughter" sent me because it implies Aragorn is out there literally risking it all for a goth girl and he's never felt so relatable 😂

[@IanHeins]

Nice work

[@rickansell661]

Having just been digging in to some WWII history... Your description of Theoden's options and decision reminded me of the events of May 17 and 28 1940. Britain appeared, regardless of Post-War analysis, defeated. Dunkirk had happened. There was, in effect, no British Army. Our main ally had been conquered. The German Airforce had swept the skies of France clear. The 'sensible' option was to follow the policy advocated by Lord Halifax and give in and submit to a temporary respite before Hitler steadily picked Britain, the Commonwealth and the Empire apart. The Churchillian option was to roll the dice in a faint hope of avoiding going down in a blaze of glory. ---- Looking closer to to current times I am reminded of a British patrol, from the 'Duke of Boots' (Duke of Wellingtons Regiment), pinned down in an open field by Serbian forces in trenches during the 1990's Wars of Yugoslav Dissolution. They faced surrender (which was probably the Serbian objective, to embarass, and gain leverage against, the UN and NATO) or being slowly picked off one by one. So they attacked. And the Serbs ran. Some hope is better than no hope. "Hard pressed on my right; my left is in retreat. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking!" - Gen Foch, Battle of the Marne, WWI

[@johnmooers5594]

Yet Merry is devoted to the Rohirrim more so than the other hobbits. Both Pippin and Sam also had their Barrow Blades, so i'm not sure about Merry being the most aligned with the realm of Arnor.

[@catxborsuq1]

Eomer and Gimli are two nerds arguing about which fantasy lady is hotter xD

[@Skeletongentleman7808]

Why did Tolkien decide for only Pippin to fight in the Battle of the Black Gate and to have Merry stay behind in Gondor? I’ve always been curious about that and one of the few changes I don’t mind in the movies

[@EriktheRed2023]

GNG has a suggestion on that: Merry broke his oath of service to Théoden because he refused to be left behind. The universe chastised him, by forcing him into a position where he would indeed be left behind.

[@istari0]

He, like Faramir and Éowyn, was too badly injured in earlier combats to go with Aragorn's army.

[@Skeletongentleman7808]

@@istari0 I know that, I’ve read the book, but that’s still a narrative decision on Tolkien’s part to make him too injured for the battle, my question was why did he make that decision

[@joannakeenan3355]

​@@Skeletongentleman7808 I think it's appropriate given the gravity of his illness after his part in the Witch King's demise.

[@EriktheRed2023]

@@Skeletongentleman7808 I think Tolkien's reasoning is that heroism takes a toll. Striking at something so dark and evil as the Lord of the Nazgûl must be shown to come with a cost. To a lesser degree than what happens to Frodo, but still a heavy price to pay. In addition, with how bloody and horrible the Battle of the Pelennor Fields is, somebody from the Fellowship has to pay a price for going through it.

[@claudiacabra2300]

Boromir not taken away the only rong by fraud,he died a hero to save the lives of merry and pippino,when his friends begin the battle they will also dedicate the victory

[@SkeeterMcBeater]

Mmmm, wraith juice.

[@truthjustice6454]

😊

[@ParameterGrenze]

13:39 Ha! 😝

[@chables74]

Algormancy!

[@brendanmooney7607]

#MerryIsTheBestHobbit