The NBA’s Loyalty Problem

[@jonnyarnett]

Loyalty in the modern NBA.... a good thing or a bad thing?? CORRECTION: Turns out that Twitter account was a parody account (I'm clearly too boomer to understand Twitter, lol). I pulled an ESPN and built and argument based on a fake tweet... Darn it. With that being said, I found a LEGIT article where MJ said similar things www.basketballnetwork.net/old-school/michael-jordans-honest-take-on-superteams-from-a-competitive-and-business-standpoint Regardless, the points of the video remain the same, and a lot of legends (like Bird and Kobe) have spoken up about loyalty and super teams.

[@jlui21]

-- loyalty is nice but it isn't everything. Like marriage, 50% of the time it ends in divorce. It takes communication and compromise for loyalty to work.

[@AgustinQ192]

I think good players should be playing in good teams, loyalty doesnt apply if the team sucks

[@IllMatic97]

Loyalty in the modern nba is a waste of time. There's always gonna be exceptions to players staying with the team that drafted them but other players aren't that lucky. Plus nba fans need to remember this is a business, it doesn't matter how loyal you are if you can be traded in one night. Loyalty is pointless if it only runs one way and you can't expect players to be loyal to an organization ran like the Charlotte Bobcats.

[@mickidoesmedia]

neither good or bad

[@fortynights1513]

It’s a thing that happens sometimes.

[@gogeta_lp]

One aspect that you only briefly mentioned is the loyalty of organisations. Players are always bashed for their unloyalty, but organisations regularly treat their players like objects without feelings. I can absolutely understand players taking matters into their own hands and deciding for their own good. Obviously there are layers to that, but you already talked about it. Great video

[@frankincensemerchant1284]

Yup very rarely do organizations get bashed for bad decisions and in the rare cases its usually the extreme cases like James Dolan of the Knicks lool

[@buddhamaster322]

How many times did teams and their fans lose their star player in free agency because that player chose the money instead of them? Happened a lot in the last 20 years (Look at all the talent that the Raptors lost in their history through free agency). Now, players go play for whoever offers them the most money, even if it means shafting their current team and the fans. We see it over and over and everyone acts like it's normal. Look at KD and Kyrie jumping ship in Brooklyn. Everyone is out for themselves, chasing clout and more millions to pile on top of their millions. So yeah, can you blame teams for how they treat players? Worst part is, it's the fans who really suffer the most.

[@frankincensemerchant1284]

@@buddhamaster322 Oh yeah the two extremes ultimately feed into each other.

[@kannon1610]

I think the most egregious lack of loyalty from organizations has to be with coaches. Coaches seem to get canned all the time for not magically leading teams to championships regardless of extenuating circumstances

[@frankincensemerchant1284]

@@kannon1610 Oh definitely, check out the segment were Michael Cooper interviews his friend Byron Scott and they talk about Byron's time coaching the Pelicans and the drama he had to deal with.

[@CiabanItReal]

The Owners want shorter contracts, they don't want to be locked into bad deals long term. So them complaining about "lack of loyalty" is a by product of their own competitive desire.

[@allowedme]

@CiabanItReal Did you said “Owners”?

[@justinholland6132]

@@allowedmeprobably meant gms. People consume them all the time

[@CryptidFlame]

Imagine if kawhi had signed an 8 year deal...... Rip

[@saget380]

I see your point and agree, but on the other side of that coin, why would franchise sign long-term contracts if players can demand trades and just decide to sit games if they don’t get what they want? Very risky. I think it could be argued that front offices want shorter contracts and less commitment *because* it’s a generally less loyal league.

[@CiabanItReal]

@@allowedme Yeah, the players negotiate the CBA with the owners.

[@fortnitejake850]

Don’t be loyal to a franchise. They don’t deserve it. Just when you think they love you, they trade you to Cleveland

[@garrettmartin7085]

😂😂nah Detroit

[@Joshjohnson.]

Isaiah Thomas (cough, cough)

[@GHOST91141]

​​ Ceveland, Detroit & Orlando 😂

[@MikHooper]

or they trade you from the clippers to the hawks after you take a pay cut (cough). no point in being loyal to organizations who will never be loyal to you. simple

[@Midragor]

NOT CLEVELAND !!!

[@MrGyonex]

Old school fan here, never cared if players left for greener pastures. The problem is proclaimed top 20 talent seeking unfair advantages joining more top 20 talent. That's LITERALLY avoiding competition in a competitive setting.

[@dj2k460]

But why only the top 20? Players 21-30 could be just as good? The problem with player movement is that we only care that certain players move and fail to recognize that everyone here is an NBA player with chances to move up and down. For example if the player ranked 1 in the NBA teams up with Players ranked 7 and player ranked 13 because they’re in the top 20 by your definition that’s a Super team. But what if 1, 7 & 13 battle the team of 2, 19, & 26 and 2, 19 & 26 go on to win the championship. Is the second team not considered a super team just because their third best player isn’t in the top 20? He’s 26 which is only 6 spots from 20, is the gap between 20-26 that great? Now expand it to the top 30 players in the league is the gap still not big enough? If a lower ranked player elevates themselves into the top 20 is it still the top 20? Do you kick someone out? If klay is a top 20 player but falls out the top 20 but jumps back in it did the top 20 gain an extra star or lose one?

[@enthusiastofcute]

Last three NBA champs (Bucks, Warriors, Nuggets) had a core of loyal/drafted stars leading them

[@mythification11]

yes cause they were lucky enough to have good teammates either drafted or traded by good gms. heck the warriors drafted 3 future hofers. that's the exceptions not the norm for most teams

[@МихаилКаркошко]

And the four FMVP before that were traded to the team they won the ring with. Winning is a matter of the situation - your personal skill/power/smarts/whatever else you bring to the table, the team's collective strength, chemistry/cohesion, leadership and, last but not least, luck. Loyalty has nothing to do with winning.

[@1vaultdweller]

What about the previous 5 champions? None of them had that lmao

[@danieltozzi6655]

You can't include the bucks. They just had giannis and Middleton from their "long term core" 🤣

[@mongoslade277]

​@@mythification11Who's the 3rd HOF player the Warriors drafted??

[@idiotengineer3925]

I hear about loyalty to corporations in my career too. If the loyalty went both ways maybe it would be a good argument, but some teams are content with just selling tickets, not winning. Everyone has one shot at a career and legacy so do whats best for you, not for some faceless corporation

[@jamiekelley4076]

I'm glad players have more control over their destiny now because let us get something clear all these teams demanding loyalty would absolutely not hesitate to get rid of any player they found to be a liability.

[@marshallbeck9101]

Nobody is loyal to anyone, one half pays the other half plays both are getting what they want

[@colewrld901]

Players shouldnt waste their best years in a hopeless situation, but they shouldn't try to run at the first road block either. I'd say 6 years is a good waiting period to see if the front office is serious

[@joshuabryant8504]

That's a good way to go about it.

[@GHOST91141]

Facts 6 is good enough to see If the front office can provide a decent team around that star player

[@ktapreswreckd921v9]

Well said.

[@sambeezy007]

​@joshuabryant8504 I agree. It usually takes 7-8 years for a hof player to win a ring unless you're Dr. J (ABA included), Russell, Duncan, Bird, Magic and Kareem. All of them did it in 3 years or less.

[@brandonburns5365]

That's dumb logic. How many teams would wait that long for you to develop

[@edwardreverseproductions]

the only reason players didnt move in the 80s and 90s is because players didnt have as much power. If they could, the old players would move around to improve their situation too

[@fortynights1513]

00’s up through 07-08 as well arguably. Then the big three Celtics succeeded.

[@jasonquinlan1733]

Ehhh sure but superstar level players could force trades and getting out of bad situations the most notable being Barkley from the 76ers to the Suns. Vice versa could be said for superstars in the 2000s and 2010s as Kobe was adamant on being traded from 06-07 and the Lakers only tested trade options a few times but had no intention of getting rid of him.

[@Matthew-xl5bc]

Facts. Old heads be telling fairytales.

[@frankincensemerchant1284]

​@@jasonquinlan1733A key difference though was how contracts were structured then, that usually gave the organizations the upper hand.

[@betterthanyesterday3912]

That's actually a very fair take. Although Jordan certainly had power, and chose to stay. But management broke up the team by firing Phil Jackson. There's a lot of ways this conversation can go. Which means this was a great topic for a video - well done Jonny!

[@DP_1605]

I just hate the idea that all players stayed with their teams purely because of loyalty back in the day.

[@fortynights1513]

I’ve heard lack of financial incentives was part of it too.

[@fenzelian]

Loyalty had little to do with it back in the day. Unrestricted free agency didn’t even exist until 1988. You could not leave for another team, you had to be traded.

[@DP_1605]

@@fenzelian Exactly. It’s just annoying because they’ll always leave this part out

[@youngrody2386]

​@@fenzelian Yet players prefered to stay in their respective teams all the way till the early 2010s. Even when given the option to be traded they didn't. So in a way, players were already conditioned to be fairly loyal, especially superstars for their respective franchises.

[@cuongquoc5877]

​@@fortynights1513contracts were fucking long back then. The CBA was more on the team''s side than the players and unrestricted FA didn't exist yet. Heck, Mose Malone jumped to Philly cuz the Rocket was cheap and refused to match the money he wanted. Guys back then would leave if they got the chance to

[@whop100000]

I have no problem with a superstar switching teams once (or maybe twice) because their team isn't doing what it takes to win. I do have a problem with superstars who repeatedly swap teams because the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Part of being an all-time great is being able to play with the right teammates you need to win. If you have to keep switching teams then maybe you are part of the problem.

[@Joe7_OSRS]

Hey Jonny, could you make an all-time top 75 talented players list? Essentially remove all accolades from the equation and base the list solely off of talent, skill, ability and possibly potential (Tmac for example if never injured). This refines the list of good players on bad teams, bad players on good teams, or injured players being ranked lower than they could've been. The hard question is should they be based on the modern NBA or in their era. I would take both and essentially pick the "timeless" players that would be good in any era.

[@mariosuarez3411]

This is a great idea! I second that.

[@truthiscensored]

Dumb idea for a video. There is a brunch of "no-names" that would be looking like All time great in the "Would of, could of, should of and/or What if ____ never happened". The whole concept is dumb. Even Ben Simmons and Lonzo Ball had huge "Potential" and are trash

[@fortynights1513]

It’d be an interesting discussion

[@naturalfitness-1]

Usually the players that defend loyalty are the ones that got lucky and got drafted to a good team

[@snowman9642]

Like MJ

[@hristijandimitrovski8664]

I'm soo happy that you begin to make new videos very often. It puts a smile on my face😁😂

[@Suge8263]

If anybody is the best example of this is Kevin Garnett. If you was around for his best years you know KG was a beast and around the best pf in the game but him being loyal to a fault he didn't get that 1 chip until the back end of his prime. Now imagine if kg would had left early in his career we having a different conversation about him and Duncan

[@richborn6700]

Honestly as a Wolves fan and KG fan, I appreciate him not wanting to go but I understand it. Multiple first round outs and a single WCF? Glen Taylor being a cheapskate and the Joe Smith situation really handicapped Garnetts prime in Minnesota. I wanna live in the universe we retained Ray Allen instead of pairing Marburry with KG

[@Hype2k23]

After Isaiah Thomas on the Celtics. Every nba player like I’m getting my bag and keep it moving

[@Ivander85]

I have no problem with players switching teams a couple times to get a better shot at a title. What rubs me the wrong way though is when they team up for a year or two and then immediately ask for a trade if it isn't working out with their hand picked super team. There are many superstars which you seemingly cannot trust anymore to stay put when things aren't perfect. I think there should be a rule where, if you sign like a 4-5 year max contract you should not be able to ask for a trade a year later.

[@TheFadedSpade35]

Kobe didn't just demand one trade, he requested a trade from the Lakers multiple times

[@Liam-ex4mf]

for a reason

[@Idontknowhoiamanymore]

Yea but he didn’t pout and shutdown. He still showed up to work and managed to win multiple championships with the lakers anyway. Thus improving his legacy. Which proves why excessive player movement today sucks

[@Maloman05]

@@Idontknowhoiamanymore That's using hindsight. We don't know what would've happened if they didn't trade for Pau Gasol and it's more likely that he either would've not won again (unless they traded for another Pau level player) or would've left the Lakers.

[@CJ_Tha_Mofo]

@@Idontknowhoiamanymore doesn't change the fact that he wanted to leave lol

[@melvynsngltn27]

Thank you Kobe fanboys are forgetful

[@jonnuanez7183]

I sure hope that Giannis and Jokic have destroyed or at least altered the viewpoint that one needs to form or join a superteam. Guys need to learn how to stand on their own. Not only that, but have the right supporting cast as well, which Lillard doesn't have. Someone like Durant has to take a look at themselves rather than just hopping from one train to the next. On paper always looks great. Real life is always different. Glad you pointed out how non loyal society seems to have become. Not just in sports but in relationships, families, jobs, customer service, etc.

[@lukeherman6292]

your thoughts and the way Lillard has behaved are pretty close to convincing me to back away from my usual stance that players should be loyal

[@reimixo]

I think players should be thankfull for the opportunities and Give their All to the franchise, but look at isaiah, Smart.... These FO Will let you go in a heartbeat.... Do you are a commodity.... mfs be trading you in the Middle of the game....

[@phillipcummings3518]

@@reimixo You can't compare trading a great role player with a superstar. That isn't the same.

[@androicocomo21]

​@@phillipcummings3518Isaiah was a superstar before injuries

[@mduncanmd17]

I’m only half way through this vid but I’m so glad someone is bringing up these points. I hate how the players get scapegoated. Remember the Morris twins taking reduced money by phoenix in order to play together only to get traded soon after. Or when the clippers signed BG to a max deal and then traded him months later

[@TyTimeIsAwesome]

The players get scapegoated because there's plenty of instances where they sign a contract, but still demand to be traded before the contract runs out. Both players and organizations have no loyalty in the end.

[@benmurawski]

Players staying loyal to their NBA teams that drafted them is actually a super good thing.

[@jaylock9twenty5]

Not if the front office for that team is incapable of surrounding their Star with adequate talent to compete

[@GarkKahn]

Not if said loyalty isn't on both sides Those aren't teams, those things are corporations. And if you are an employee you must know what happens generally and what must be done

[@celtics17banners84]

Can you imagine Larry Bird as a Piston?? I didn’t realize how good I had it in the competitive 80s

[@creditorclass6513]

Can you imagine Jordan getting frustrated in 90' and joining the Bad Boys?. Beating the Lakers in 91' and putting Magic on the floor every time he came into the lane?.

[@vintagemonte]

Why would he join the pistons if his team is already stacked? 😂😂

[@Slapshot544]

​@@vintagemonteNah for real😂

[@MarkyMark1221]

@@vintagemontehis team wasn’t stacked then but either way (I know it’s a hypothetical but) he wouldn’t join Detroit he hated them too much on a personal level

[@Sf75178]

​@@Slapshot544how on earth was the team stacked?

[@MrSquaky]

Oddly enough I see alot of parallels between NBA players "new freedom" and people today with Dating. Always looking for "where the grass is greener".

[@AMolina-e9m]

None of you ever see this from an Athletes perspective. Imagine spending a decade in the minor league system for a baseball team, time and time again with a chance of being cut. But one organization keeps its faith in you, year after year thinking you can help them win. Then after a decade you finally get called up by that organization, when you know 7-8 years ago 29 other teams would have not invested in such a project. Stories like this are common in sports and inspire loyalty.

[@Maloman05]

Different sport with a different organization that has a different ecosystem of player movement. Sure you could bring up a hypothetical minor league baseball player waiting 10 years to make it to the major leagues but we're talking about actual people like KG, Dominique, Alex English, Dame, Lebron (1st stint in Cleveland), and it doesn't really compare. What about the perspectives of basketball players in the NBA about the agency that basketball players in the NBA should have?

[@grammysworld5449]

Wish I got as many excuses as Dame

[@AMolina-e9m]

@@Maloman05 does not change what I said whatsoever. All you added was the word hypothetical.

[@Maloman05]

@@AMolina-e9m are you able to fog up a mirror? I’m telling you that your hypothetical about a MLB minor league player feeling loyalty after not making the major league for 10 years doesn’t apply to a conversation about NBA star player movement. It’s doggie water.

[@RubenSilva-tk4yb]

Dame is 33. (He's spent 12 years in Portland.) Here's an incomplete list of NBA Hall of Famers who changed teams before age 33: Wilt (28) Kareem (28) Oscar (32) Rick Barry (23 and 28) Pearl (27) Moses (21, 27, and 31) Barkley (29 and 33) Clyde (32) Rodman (32) Tim Hardaway (29) Shaq (24 and 32) Kidd (23 and 28) Zo (25 and 33) Webber (21, 25, and 31) Mutumbo (30) AI (31 and 33) Grant Hill (28) Nash (24 and 30) T-Mac (21, 25, and 30) KG (31) Ray Allen (27 and 32) Bring this up the next time someone brings up """the good old days of loyalty"""

[@number1sun]

Before the NBA allowed free agency (starting with Tom Chambers) players were basically under the thumb of the team that drafted them. Just because players are allowed to play where they want now does not mean that there is a loyalty crisis; it just means the players have more control over their careers and the team owners have just a bit less.

[@alex4833]

Great video, Jonny. We have to do what is best for ourselves and our needs. Same goes for NBA players. It can be tough, but it is key. I also agree with other commenters about how loyalty is a two way street. Teams cut and trade players often and there are questions about loyalty there too (though there seemingly is much less focus on teams' loyalty than player loyalty).

[@ktapreswreckd921v9]

Just as you said Jonny. Players should stay loyal to their drafted team and should only leave. Only if their organization is not trying to be championship worthy. Alaa-Kevin Garnett.

[@ianreed9638]

They were trying but they get caugth with under the table deals that's why they got some punishment from the league one reason it's hard for them to build a great team around KG..

[@rahultalkssports1404]

My perspective on loyalty is that if you're a star player that's on a team where you're winning, paid well, and are a top 2 scoring option, then you should remain loyal. However, if you're a star player on a team that's failed to build around you properly then you have every right to leave.

[@buddhamaster322]

What if you are an undersized star player who's not good enough to get his team over the the hump. What if you are just that guy? Do you think he should be demanding a trade to a championship team?

[@rahultalkssports1404]

@@buddhamaster322 If he ain't winning even after spending years of his career there, why should he continue to waste his career losing. He might be best as a 2nd option but if the team has failed to build around him he has every right to leave.

[@moneymoves263]

what if you’re the only reason your team is winning tho? we’ve seen stars like bron, dame, wade etc. lead bad teams to great records.

[@rahultalkssports1404]

@@moneymoves263 if you have to carry your team because they can’t build around you then ya I won’t blame them for requesting a trade.

[@buddhamaster322]

@@rahultalkssports1404 Why? I'll tell you why. Because Damian Lillard said he'd never leave Portland. His own words. I know loyalty is dead but does your word not count for nothing anymore too? He was one of the most vocal critics of players "running from the grind" and chasing rings. That's one of the reasons why he was so respected around the league. Now he became what he detested because the noise of the world got to him. I find it weak as hell.

[@SilverSlugs16]

Death, taxes, and Jonny Arnett giving the most rational level-headed takes

[@MysticMicrowave]

This is why, as a mavs fan, I'll be rooting for Luka to win even if he leaves our team

[@JGRG07]

I always thought it was weird that players were criticized for wanting to leave but the organizations never get backlash for doing whats best for them.

[@nbarealtalker]

Celtics in the 2000s, couple Heat titles in 2010s, Cavs + 4 Warriors titles as well. When you add it all up, superteams aren’t sweeping the NBA titles. Teams with one star and some hungry vets like Milwaukee, Toronto, Denver, Dallas etc can still win.

[@aaroncreatingrealms8175]

When loyalty hit it can create something special like 2011 dallas or 2021 bucks or even 2009 lakers there's something special The fan bond is something special by losing and losing you finally win BUT ORGANISATION DON'T CARE ABOUT BOND EVERYTHING IS REPLACEABLE ... So yeah you're free do what you want

[@younglove3362]

Fans are idiots and disloyal. That 2011 is only special because everyone wanted to see LeBron lose. Stop ✋️

[@mcNuggetMuncher]

Depends on the organization.

[@venom8182]

Cavs title will always be the best

[@blablablabla2572]

2009 lakers ? Kobe requested a trade in 2007

[@moneymoves263]

2011 dallas? that team was literally built in free agency

[@marcosmartinez8088]

Great video. I like the fact that a player, if he is enough valuable, could make the decision he wants to do. Same as GMs, they will make bad moves, but it's funny. Superteams or not, If you see closely, those teams barely have done something significant since KD left GSW. A player needs to be on the same page as his coach and GM, or they aint winning either.

[@davidhutson2846]

All depends on how you look at it.. a player is only signing that contract. Be it 1yr or 5 years. Hes only loyal to that contract, not the team. No different than the team when they sign that contract, they are only liable to pay you what that contract is worth.

[@hardwoodgems]

This was perspective and instruction all in one. Thanks Jonny!

[@chrisb5000]

IMO, loyalty is very important. The issue is not that a player gets traded or leaves for another team, The issue is leaving for another team with multiple superstars. In the past a superstar would leave for another team that lacked another superstar, to be the man in that new team. Nowadays players don't leave and find a team where they can be the man they just want to be another superstar alongside other superstars. Take for example Tracy McGrady and Vince Carter in Toronto. Tracy McGrady left so he can be the man and shine in his own team instead of sharing the spotlight with Vince Carter. That is the opposite of what is happening today because of players like LeBron and the rest.

[@moneymoves263]

so moses malone didn’t join a 60+ win team with dr j? barkley didn’t join a great suns team? you’re ignoring the fact that the only reason bron joined the heat was because the celtics formed a big 3 first

[@chrisb5000]

@@moneymoves263 Kobe took down that Celtics team without another top 75 player on his team. And that isn't the only reason LeBron joined Miami. If you don't think he was ring chasing you're delusional as even in the celebration he promised multiple rings to the crowd because he knew exactly what he was going for and doing. And all this in the weaker East.

[@moneymoves263]

@@chrisb5000 he joined miami because in 7 years the best second option the cavs got him was mo williams. and i see you with the pau disrespect acting like he wasn’t one of the best pf in the league

[@chrisb5000]

​@@moneymoves263before leaving to Miami LeBron played with multiple all stars in Cleveland, Mo Williams, Shaq, ilguaskas, Antawan Jamison. They all were or had been all stars. Several superstars would have been happy with that roster especially in the weak East , but LeBron wanted to ring chase because he has always thought he deserved rings to be handed on a silver platter to him

[@Ak4set]

​​​@@chrisb5000 So a 1-2x all star and 37 yr old shaq is help now??? And no. No superstars will be happy with that roster WTF

[@19EHF]

Loyalty works both ways you can't expect players to be loyal to a franchise and have their franchise take that player for granted and not bother or do very bad job of building a team around them. I think players have the right to put themselves in a good situation and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But I also don't think players should run at the first sign of trouble. Also it light a fire under the GM's/owners ass to make good business decisions.

[@tillmannobendorf]

The aspect of loyalty to a team is also discussed when talking about other sports in the current era. My take on it is that it is a change which is seen in society as well. While it was perfectly normal to have a job which you would do for 20, 30+ years at the same company in the 60s and 70s, nowadays people are working for 2, 3 years at one place before switching jobs since it is also easier to get paid more instead of staying at your old job and ask for a raise that would match the salary of the new job. One could say that (star) NBA players are earning more than enough and should therefore stay with their organization, but today's loyalty issues are rooted far deeper than the NBA itself. Your point of "being loyal to the right thing" rings true when it comes to the possibility of winning a ring. There are brilliant examples of loyalty in today's NBA as well, though. I was really happy for Giannis and Jokić for winning with the teams with which they grew into the players they are now.

[@cryingfish2488]

Hey Jonny, players should be loyal to organizations that are loyal to them. Like the Knicks and Obi Toppin. Obi did everything the organization asked of him, even though he was drafted to be the starting PF, Julius Randle ended up have 2 all-star seasons in 3 years. So he took a backseat. Even though that would hurt Toppins career. Minutes=performance performance=advancement. You can only keep a starting level player like Obi coming off the bench for so long. Its not right to him after he did what was asked. So the Knicks sent him where he asked to go. And even signed his undrafted little brother to a 2-way contract. Giving him half a million. And Im sure our hometown boy Obi will always be thinking in the back of his mind, when is it time to return home? I love the way the Knicks are being run now. Thanks for your top notch NBA videos. Your videos are always All-star caliber!

[@xaviermoyssenalvarez4419]

very good video, Johnny. earned yourself a sub.

[@therocknrollmillennial535]

This is the way I've always thought of my answer to this question. I'm a Bucks fan, so let's take Giannis as an example. There's a reason he was drafted 15th and not 1st or 2nd. He was an unknown who had major untapped potential that has mostly come to fruition in the span of his career. He's stayed loyal to the team that took the chance on him. If he leaves, even though he's my favorite player, I won't stop being a Bucks fan, nor would I stop being a Giannis fan. Just because "I" would stay with a team that drafted me, as a hypothetical, doesn't mean I need every athlete to follow suit. The only reasons I ever had any issue with someone creating a superteam is (a) when I heard from multiple people, on social media, and in person, that "the only reason LeBron left Cleveland was so they could draft Kyrie and then he'd come back." 1) Maybe that's part of it, but "the only" reason? 2) If that was the case, why did he spend three more seasons in Miami after Kyrie got drafted?; and (b) when people criticized Durant for creating a superteam in GS, but supported LeBron moving to Miami. 3 top-five picks from the same draft coming together to make a team isn't a "superteam?"

[@gumdeo]

LeBron went to Miami for championships, period.

[@ing4gi]

Times have changed indeed, but stars like Magic would've been able te demand a trade if they felt like it considering his teammate Kareem literally did that with the Bucks at the time. Basically only superstars had these unwritten privileges back then. Now everyone has them, which is good.

[@MrE_]

I think a good idea for trades is that if a supermax player requests a trade, he loses the extra money above the normal max when he gets traded. That will stop players from signing huge contracts and immediately requesting a trade. That way the contract is easier to move for the team and the player gets punished for not fullfilling his contract

[@leptonparticle238]

I think it has to do a lot with the trade rules. If the CBA allows trades that can create superteams, than obviously the players are gonna group up to have easy rings, but if a prome superstar cant switch a team to join another superstar or two and switching teams can put you in a slightly better position but not an almost guaranteed championship, then we will see less team hopping for sure. And I wonder if the new CBA can really kill the superteam era, how many rings would have certain Lebron have if he couldn't create a superteam in Miami and come back to a cleveland with a Kyrie and Kevin Love.

[@schuylersavage276]

Fair, but then think about it: LeBron only joined Miami because the Celtics super team was giving him a really hard time with the Cavs. Then it was mostly KD joining the already elite warriors team as a ridiculous super team that was able to stop LeBrons super team on the Cavs. I know LeBron didn’t only lose to Superman’s, I’m just saying…

[@franciscodavis1713]

At the end of the day NBA is a business it doesn’t matter how much loyalty you bring in the table you have to do what is best for you

[@portlandreign81]

Loyalty goes both ways. Cronin told Dame he would add size and veterans and they would spend money instead the blazers got smaller younger and cheaper and used their biggest asset to draft Dames replacement. I’m a blazers fan and I totally understand Dame wanting out. He wanted to be here

[@hthrun]

6:20 My son was 2nd team all conference his sophomore year and 1st team his junior year. He was one of only two non-seniors to get 1st team. After his junior season, the best team in the conference wanted him to switch schools and join them. We stayed put out of loyalty and we didn't want to ride a super team. Then in his senior season, the coach split up the players in practices into two teams. My son on one and the next two best players on the other. You could tell the other two were getting used to playing with each other as they would often pass to each other in games but not my son. Despite having a superior FG %, the other two would always take more shots. My son's team lost in the title game to the other team. My son was only 2nd team all-conference while his two teammates got 1st team for the first time. We wanted to be loyal but got stabbed in the back. This is why I believe Durant made the right move going to Golden State. It's easy for a team and teammates to start taking you for granted. If you have a top team that wants you, don't pass up the opportunity.

[@Jeff_2x]

Had this opinion on before but recently getting into football/soccer where players are usually encouraged to go to a different team (e.g. Mbappe to Real Madrid) further cemented my point that they’re is no such thing as loyalty and the NBA fans once again need to get out of this archaic mindset of players should stay “loyal” to a franchise when in reality the goal in every sport is to win a ring so they should do what’s best for themselves and NOT the team to achieve the goal whether that means staying or leaving.

[@TellHerNothing]

The mbappe one is misleading.. people only want him to leave because PSG is probably the most hated team in Europe

[@CorneliusMagnus]

Other thing is lack of loyalty on the team side like Boston and Smart situation for example.

[@jonnyarnett]

100%. I couldn't figure out how to fit that into the script without throwing off the flow of my other points, but I knew a lot of you guys in the chat would be smart to point that out

[@thomash8501]

Great video Jonny! You really articulated this issue well.

[@douglasmcfarland9040]

I value loyalty but they are professionals making a living. In my own mind if they are financially secure, loyalty becomes taking a little less to get key players more money to keep them is great.

[@moneymoves263]

the best players in the league can’t take less or it will ruin the cba. they need to get as much money as possible

[@zerevv]

I guess if you fans of the team loyalty matters more than if you're only fans of the players this is a trend that high key increasing lately that people only support the player and don't have a fav team

[@treyjay9560]

There’s a lot I could say about loyalty, but I don’t feel like writing a long comment so I’ll keep it brief. -I’ll respect loyalty, but I’ll never expect it -Loyalty goes both ways -It can sometimes end up being a detriment to the player -The double standards some people have are just absurd -A player shouldn’t have to leave the fate of their career in the hands of the management -A player shouldn’t be expected to go a mile when the front office can’t even go an inch

[@bolt7047]

Loyalty costed Dame a chance for mamy rings. Plus owners aint loyal to their players so the players should not be loyal as well. Players legacies are highly based on rings, so it makes sense they put themselves in positions to win them.

[@TellHerNothing]

He had chances to contend.. in 2016 he folded against the warriors without curry & all his roleplayers stepped up 2019 CJ willed them to the WCF & dame played like trash against the warriors again.

[@michaelgieseler2799]

@@TellHerNothingwhose actually winning a ring with CJ as the second best player on the team? I doubt prime Jordan could. CJ has never been an all star, all nba, or all defense in his entire career, but dame is supposed to win with him as his number 2 when the rest of the league is stacking talent together? That’s ridiculous

[@fbiopenup6534]

@@TellHerNothing You're making it sound like the Warriors aren't a top 5 team ever assembled.

[@moneymoves263]

@@michaelgieseler2799just because cj wasn’t an all star doesn’t mean he wasn’t a good second option. the dude has averaged 20+ for 10 straight years

[@michaelgieseler2799]

@@moneymoves263 just because he can average over 20 doesn’t automatically make him a good second option. If he’s such a good second option, why has he never been named an all star? CJ is a good scorer, shooter, and a decent passer. He’s horrible defensively, especially when you are trying to play him alongside a 6’2” pg. He really doesn’t bring much value to a team, which is why he’s never been an all star. A guy like Scottie pippen didn’t average over 20 ppg very often, but he’s still way better than a guy like CJ. Scottie could impact the game in a million ways, and CJ can’t. That’s why I’d bet money that even a prime MJ couldn’t win with CJ as his second option, but we are gonna sit here and expect dame to?

[@TyTimeIsAwesome]

Interesting points in this video. I don't care about loyalty- at the end of the day the NBA is a business between players and owners. What I do care is parity. These stars jumping ships to join other stars have ruined the over all product, especially if you're a fan of a small market team like I am.

[@MJIZZEL]

Last 3 championship won by teams whose stars remained loyal. There's something to being loyal I believe.

[@MarcusTheJR]

Bucks don't win without Jrue Holiday Nuggets don't win with Aaron Gordon Warriors don't win any titles with Andre All of whom were trades

[@tromboneman4517]

Yes, but the core of those teams were all drafted/developed over time. Trading is a good tool, but it can only do so much and often fails more than it works.

[@truthiscensored]

@@MarcusTheJR None of those people are "stars" let alone SUPERSTARS...they are role players on their best day and a 6th-8th man off the bench on their worst. They definitely not stars. No one buys tickets or tune in to see those guys play

[@MarcusTheJR]

@truthiscensored680 they don't win without them. Stars don't win titles they get you there.

[@MJIZZEL]

@@MarcusTheJR bruh you can make that same statement about every team that's ever won. Literally every team since the merger has acquired players in the off-season or via trade, that end up either playing a pivotal role or making a big play somewhere in the series. The point of my statement was that the last 3 teams that won a ring, did so while developing the stars they drafted. There weren't any of the, "teaming up with the competition" kinda moves that completely ruin the idea or intensity of rivalries. I enjoyed like hell in the 90's, looking at the bulls schedule and seeing teams like NY and Indiana and Utah and knowing that I was gonna see a a hard fought game due to the rivalries that come about when the NBA had less turnover. Made me anticipate seeing Ewing and starks, or miller or Stockton and Malone going up against the bulls. Now it's like after every season the majority of lineups is like most the league had a fantasy draft. Teams win when they have loyal stars and fans damn sure appreciate being invested much more also and I believe if not for the cashcow which is the Chinese market, the NBA would get the point because the US ratings aren't even a fifth of what they used to be while the population has increased 80 million since the 90's.

[@michaelbarnes2126]

Makes you look at the player before free agency with more respect

[@aaronrhodes7268]

Devin Booker: got his super team (in year nine) Steph Curry: 4 rings (going to year 15) Damian Lillard: on the wrong end of 30 with one conference finals appearance to boot (in 12 years) Giannis: Not quite Jokic levels but his organization saw greatness in him and he delivered (8 years to win a ring, he’s been there 10 years) An examination into how loyalty can affect any player differently and how long it takes for that to fruit.

[@JuanLopez-jz9fi]

I feel that players should absolutely be loyal. Not necessarily to ownership but to the city, fans and teammates.

[@jaylock9twenty5]

No they should not. This is a business first and foremost and they should do what’s best for them. If they love the city that much, they can live there in the offseason

[@MPatt2021]

Bro you summed this up perfectly except the organizations are not loyal at all and will tell players they're not being traded then litterly hours later trade them

[@azagoren235]

The Nuggets deserve flowers for how they treated and built around their current roster. Orgs like Portland, DC, Charlotte, and the old Sac front office were horrendous. Thank god for the new Sac front office as a Kings fan

[@mariosuarez3411]

I think that loyalty is a double edged sword and I have a hard time making a complete stand on it. For example, I've never really been "loyal" to a team, as I find the concept of loyalty (from a fan standpoint) a strange concept. The way I see it, it's like being loyal to a shirt or sports uniform. I find the idea of being loyal to players a much more reasonable concept. If I like the way a certain player performs on the court, the way he carries himself and other intangibles, I don't see why I shouldn't "follow" this player to whatever team he plays for, though I'm aware that this form of loyalty is frowned upon.

[@GarkKahn]

Loyalty is great, but not when that comes on only one way Don't stick in a relationship when is all give and never receive That's servitude plain and simple, not a healthy relationship. Be it family, work or whatever

[@realunrealmike]

Yeah you hit it on the head here... great video. Times change, CBA is what it is... I'm not a fan of the team hopping but I get it. It just makes fans of teams nervous af they may lose there superstar...

[@dreamcage1801]

Players have gotten to spoiled ever since the Decision was announced on front street back in 2010.

[@mtlngs]

Insane, I for sure thought Dirk would be mentioned at least once in the video

[@WarioSaysSo]

Loyalty goes both ways. The team and the player(s). Larry Bird is a great example, he was feirce loyal to the Celtics and the Celtics was prepeared to sign him on another 4 year multi million contract EVEN as Bird was sadly plagued with chronic back pains and could not play on a competive level any longer. Bird had in his contract at the time that if he did not take any actions, his contract would be automaticaly renewed WITh raise = All Bird had to do was just sit there and take free money - BUT Bird out of respect and loyalty refused to do that to his team and in this case, the Celtics Managment still begged him to consider and was willing, but Bird felt it was wrong and told them he would instead retire and not take a cent from the Celtics. Or Lebron James. The Cleveland Cavaliers was going to put EVREYTHING they had to make it "HIS" team for his entire career. That much faith they had in him. They would for the upcoming decade(s) build around HIM and have him as the face of the franchise. But James wanted to win now and disscredited his coaches, teamplayers and GM and left them....to come back after the Cavaliers have risen from the dirt he left them in with hope of new tallents, use them up....to dump them AGAIN and leave the franchise in a broken mess that still is plauging them for years to come. NO loyalty here. Or Shaquille O'neal in Orlando Magic. The Magic becaame steadily a contender with Shaq, Hardaway and Grant etc and made the finals after just a few years. The Magic was still very young and had all the potentials to become a champion team. BUT Shaq wanted to win now and have even more money so after all the Magic had done to please Shaq and being the face of the franchise, Shaq dumped them. At least Shaq have in retired days expressed some regret over this and said he feels he should have stayed there his career as "his" team. New York Knicks serves as a great team example of no loyalty to there long time stars. They had no loyalto to there long time franchise star Patrick Ewing when they dumped him of lame age reasons....just to replace him with a player SAME age as he was who did not deliver any better results either... Fans hated the Knicks for this and so did the press. The man had bled for the team and they dumped him after all the loyalty he had given them through the years. Atlanta Hawks did same crime with there franchise star Dominique Wilkins. But players like; Lebron "Lechina-Leflop-Lecry" James, James Harden, Kevin Durant, Dwight Howard, Chris Paul etc represents a bad taste in my mouth for lack of lots of things that other top players developed to have. Lack of leadership, lack of dignity, lack of faith in teammates, lack of respect of coach, lack of respect for franchise and its fans and LACK of paitence for teambuilding and experience gaining. These players represent the wrong parts of professional sport. They all are/was franchise players that there team wanted to build around for many years and paid them tons of money, but there diva mentalities and awful lack of dignity and faith made them jump ship to chase winners time-time-and-time again! Michael Jordan and Isiah Thomas spent 7-9 years respective on there teams Bulls & respective Pistons (who both shared a past of decades with no winning seasons or being contenders) but always had faith in there teams and teammates. They fought on and piece-by-piece both gathered the players needed and built them up to first become contenders but a couple of years later they went all the wat to become CHAMPIONS on there own might! This is what REAL champions does. They build by there own force to win - not by jumping ships and chase winning teams and team up with there stars.

[@newpancakeman]

I think it depends on the star. But also LeBron’s way, where he has defined eras of playstyle was/is perfect

[@phillipcummings3518]

If it was perfect he wouldn't have a losing finals record.

[@newpancakeman]

@@phillipcummings3518 alright phillip cummings 3518

[@Scorhos]

The players look to respect their contracts until the end,with rare situations,like with Harden and Irving asking for a trade jumping two for two years. But they have the right to trade. The legacy is more theirs than from the owners. They are the people that are playing , the faces.

[@AJOak-lk2vr]

Hard to be loyal when teams view 95-99% of players as expendable

[@Maloman05]

I think the biggest issues is that certain organizations, whether through intent or circumstance, are not able to build around certain players. I think players deserve the opportunity for better situations, and history has shown more players deserved that and weren't given it. Sure there will be bad outcomes, this is true for the opposite, and sure people will look down on players for being "soft" or lacking loyalty. However, I think it may be better for the league long term, and only time will tell. With more player movement, we've seen players that did not project to be more than roleplayers establish themselves as more valuable than initially thought. We've seen how players like Mikal Bridges and Lauri Markkanen ( although they were traded for better players) establish themselves as stars, and hopefully more players will get that opportunity once long term as well. We've seen how trying to create a superteam does not guarantee a championship multiple times in this era. People will always say "well what about this example where they have homegrown talent" and I don't think that more player movement prevents that from happening. Hell, we've seen multiple championships won with homegrown talent in an era with a lot of player movement. I mean, Lebron won a championship for the team that drafted him but that was only really possible because he had the power to leave and come back (they don't get Kyrie or Wiggins, who is traded for Kevin Love without being fucking terrible without Lebron). I agree with the last point that there are a lot of older players that are victims of not having the power to move to a better situation, and it denied them success.

[@MegaMjjordan]

People are confusing Honor with Loyalty. Players back then couldn’t get out of a contract for fear of less or career in general cause wasn’t spread in those days. They were doing the bare minimum as a person. Not breaching contact!!

[@wizmanballin8498]

Loyalty is good only for certain markets in the NBA imo. LA Lakers, New York Knicks, Chicago Bulls, teams like that will support their team players for life should they decide to stay and have a measure of success. But what Lebron did when going to Miami busted up any notion that any player after him should stay long term for their respective franchise because of what was on the line when he left. People can hate KD all they want, but he now had a blueprint to follow. The door was now open to do what you want as a star player. Forget the team and fans. as of recent memory, the only NBA all-stars who stayed with the team that drafted them and won a title is Jokic and Giannis.

[@cadecrusader]

Well said Jonny, very deep!

[@stephenramos2824]

A by product of players jumping teams is that most people are just fans of a player and not a fan of teams

[@cassypearlz]

spot on again jonny😊

[@markula_4040]

Loyalty is like respect. It has to be earned. Saying players just need to be more loyal is a bit narrow-minded.

[@richardscott9973]

It is a tough call, if dirk hadn't won his wrong would his loyalty compensate....but after winning the ring he is considered and will for a long time be considered the greatest maverick

[@danieltozzi6655]

"NBA players have no loyalty." .........Says the person that worked at 5 companies for the last 2 years

[@tdvu]

The NBA, just like any other sport, will always be a business at the end of the day. Nothing wrong with players and organizations looking out for their own interests.

[@dj2k460]

What I find funny is when people point out guys like magic, bird, mj, Kobe and Duncan for being loyal but fail to point that those players probably benefited the most from the CBA being the way it was. You have to understand that back in the day teams had to keep their star players at all whether the team was good or bad because that’s what generated revenue so of course the Knicks won’t trade Ewing or the pacers won’t trade miller so as an organization you either tried to build teams to compete or you just made sure you had good revenue. This benefited the 80s Celtics and lakers and the 90s bulls because unless a team drafted well and brought in key pieces they weren’t gonna face any real competition. Just look at the warriors and the 2016 Cavs, the warriors after losing to Lebron called KD in to guarantee them victory, KG literally told the world what the 08 Celtics thought of Lebron cavs, as he called it “it was 1 vs 5 and we knew he couldn’t beat all 5 of us” this is what KG thought and I bet you this is what shaq/Kobe’s lakers thought and what the 90s bulls thought and what the 80s Celtics and lakers thought and for good reason cuz they lived in an era where the teams under them could never join together to build a team capable of fighting them, sure some teams came close but outside the pistons and rockets it was Celtics, lakers and bulls and everyone else were after thoughts

[@redeyexxx1841]

Well LeBron did this BS by going to Maima Heat and basically still lost to Nowitski 1v3. After that I don't even feel bad the KD and the superteam whooped him.

[@keithjoseph128]

​@@redeyexxx1841sad you believe Mario Chalmers and Joel Anthony started on a superteam, yet you give the defending champs (who should have been the title favorite) a pass.

[@keithjoseph128]

How loyal was Kobe though? He ruined a franchise for a decade.

[@dj2k460]

@@redeyexxx1841 also the Miami heat in 2010 were not the same as the 73-9 warriors. Lebron did join wade and Bosh but after wades 2006 championship ( that he won with shaq ) he hadn’t been back to the finals and spent that time post 06 on a mediocre heat team that didn’t get past the second round, and bosh was a loser in Toronto who barley made the playoffs while he was there and never got past the first round. Tbh if you take away wades 06 ring he and Lebron would’ve had the same career, both from the 03 draft who took their respective teams to 1 finals before joining together so the heat big 3 who were a super team were no different then the 90s bulls or 80s Celtics/ Lakers

[@redeyexxx1841]

@@dj2k460 3 top 10 players in 1 team so definitely superteam.

[@AWF1000]

I don't mind if they want to explore. What I don't agree with is them getting an easy way to win like Kevin Durant joining a championship prime team that didn't need him in the first place . It just ruins the competitiveness of the league.

[@jakob9614]

Loyalty is nice, it’s nice if you as a player have the privilege and opportunity to be loyal. But don’t expect your employer to care about you one bit - it’s a business after all. If they see an opportunity to get more money and success elsewhere you’re gone. I truly believe that if it were up to the players only we would see many more spend their entire careers in one organisation.

[@amaddenmind4597]

I agree totally great video

[@ryanhansen3350]

Love the CS Lewis quote!

[@pamoon_]

The ad is still on but I'll answer the loyalty problem with one sentence: Loyalty only matters if the player who wants to stay on the team is winning, whether that would be championships (Kobe, Duncan, Curry) and/or MVPs (AI, DRose, Russ, Embiid, etc.).

[@Chapman1886]

The more interesting question is who are the players that actually left a Championship caliber team? Usually, players leave because their team is in a hopeless situation or they will have to be absolutely perfect to have a slim chance of making a Conference Final or Final.

[@legendarywiimaster]

5:10 oooh that one did not age well Dude left in the most DISLOYAL and DISRESPECTFUL way possible

[@arianluna4548]

Be loyal to your family and loved ones. Go where they will pay u the most so you can improve the quality of life of your loved ones. When u get injured they throw you away like a broken toy !

[@staringatthesun861]

The answer is to be loyal to a point. Kevin Garnett played 12 years in Minnesota.......then left and got a ring. That's honorable, because he stuck around long enough to give his franchise a chance to build a winner. They couldn't, and he moved on. He did join what ultimately became a super-team, but it's still not as distasteful as what Kevin Durant did, since although he played 9 years for the Sonics/Thunder, he joined a 73-9 juggernaut.

[@MrReese]

It really depends on the case. Some players have been hopping around a lot and not getting a lot done wherever they have hopped in recent years. Other players, like LeBron for example, stay at their teams for several years at a time and try to achieve something, which I am totally fine with. But when I look at players like Harden, KD, and Westbrook recently, it's...stupid. Interestingly enough, all of them are from the old OKC team that unfortunately never won anything :D. Maybe they should try again now towards the end of their careers :).

[@cuongquoc5877]

If i remember correctly, MJ almost got traded before dude ever won a ring. And its easy for MJ to speak Loyalty when dude was the best player in League and teams would do anything to keep him. They had no issue of throwing away other role players if needed.

[@Lakersforlif]

That fact that the lakers in 1984 though magic would actually play 30 years is crazy

[@ElectrifyingUno]

These players might as well just sign 10 day contracts so they can jump from team to team at a whim and find the easiest path to a ring. Once the media pointed to rings as the end all argument and this modern society with a instant gratification era, you're gonna see massive movement every couple years.

[@Jithinjohnson007]

Regarding the Dame situation There is 2 sides to this and depend on where you lean morally. Business side: The organization looks best for themselves and don’t care about Dame’s suggestions and focus on what best for their organization and fans. Player side: He gave everything he had to this team and had the opportunity the leave years earlier if he wanted to but didn’t… but the front office was never able to build a solid contender around him….ONLY because he showed loyalty to the team that drafted him are they even in this situation to get a lot of assets for him. Yes he got paid good money for all his services but he earned every penny and NBA being a business where dollars and cents will overcome moral reasoning. In a perfect world, both sides gets to walk away happy… In the end this is gonna be a an interesting situation to see if loyalty gets rewarded. 🤔

[@brandonbrandon2893]

I think another layer to this is the pressure that paying and game-watching fans put onto teams. People pay to watch and are more entertained by winning teams. So, if a team isn't winning, paying fans pay/come less. And, the team owners feel the burden of taking corrective action to get the lost revenue back. Fans should not complain about a lack of loyalty and then throw their underperforming franchise player under the bus when a ring isn't won. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. If loyalty is a preeminent morality that transcends all other considerations, then keep buying tickets and showing up when your team is losing. Which one are people more likely to pay and tune into the games for: their team winning or their favorite player on their team staying at budget-busting prices, even if they continue to lose? I think the empty seats and under-performing teams gives us the answer. Last, how often are media personnel and fans demanding the trade of some superstar that isn't meeting expectations?