What Psychology Says About Women Who Cheat - Macken Murphy

[@ChrisWillx]

Hello you savages. Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - chriswillx.com/books/ Here's the timestamps: 00:00 Groundbreaking New Research on Infidelity 10:09 Studying People Who Have Cheated 20:31 Are There Evolutionary Benefits to Men Cheating? 25:36 The Novelty of Infidelity 28:30 Most Surprising Research Takeaways 35:23 Can Women Separate Emotions From Sex? 46:20 Top 3 Motivations for Women Cheating 53:14 How Society Views Cuckolding 1:02:53 Men’s Motivations for Cheating 1:12:03 The Science Behind Jealous 1:20:28 What Are the Predictors of Infidelity? 1:28:57 How to Know if Someone is Cheating 1:33:22 What Counts as Cheating? 1:38:08 Can You Inherit Promiscuity? 1:44:33 People More Likely to Be Cheated on 1:49:16 Is Infidelity Natural? 1:56:19 Where to Find Macken

[@ryancairns2317]

Strange as this may at first sound, the question of why do Men AND women betray one another's trust (From thought to intention, decision to acting upon it- What are/is the cause and drive to be unfaithful in a relationship) can ,in a strange way, be intrinsically linked to the question, "What's behind the Ills of this world and the consequential suffering and conflict from which arise"? ....as the true, honest answer to both propositions is one and the same..... Ignorance of universal Truth and The Law of One Errors in Perception, awareness and the perversion of our ego. When we choose selfishness over selflessness and perceive this world, our fellow beings and all that surrounds us as separate and remain blind to the truth of the Unity of all things.......we arrive in the state of the world today.

[@gregoryAsmith22]

The notion of a flawless marriage or relationship is a myth. There's no set formula for success; what works for one couple may not work for another. Yet, I've discovered that there's always a way forward, even in the most challenging times. Five years ago, my wife and I encountered significant hurdles in our marriage that nearly led to divorce. Despite the adversity, we managed to weather the storm and emerge from it with our bond renewed and revitalised.

[@MichelleJOleary]

There is a lot of sense in what you just said and I hope mine works the same way too, we are currently separated but I cant live without her, I love her so much. wish I can get her back I can do anything to have her back, we have tried therapy amongst other things

[@gregoryAsmith22]

Its always difficult to let someone you love go, but in my case I had the help of a spiritual adviser who saved my marriage from collapsing her name is shelly renee white

[@MichelleJOleary]

This is helpful, I will look her up online right now...Thanks.

[@gregoryAsmith22]

You wont regret it

[@ConceptHut]

Please look into John Gottmans work. He did empirical studies on marriages to find what works and does not work. 15 min interview with couple could predict divorce with 90 percent accuracy.

[@bobjenzen8735]

I love when psychology just tells you what you witness just by existing

[@threatened2024]

It's possible that you're highly observant, but it's good to get things tested properly

[@kanu88kanu88kanu88]

Agreed Chris is so pseudo profound on this

[@michaelortiz1561]

Same with philosophy

[@Babymercy8]

The people want hoe_math

[@RaymondStone]

It would be funny to see a split screen podcast with Chris's face on the left and an overhead shot of a drawing with a pair of hands on the right.

[@mattstakeontheancients7594]

He did do a video with Murphy previously and they agreed on somethings and didn’t on others. It was a good video. Also most stories

[@Jay_Hendrix]

The people have SPOKEN!! 🔥

[@chrislivingstone1843]

@@mattstakeontheancients7594 I thought that was terrible. Macken was unbearable and kept talking over hoe_math. Found Macken really unlikable and couldn’t watch much of it.

[@mattstakeontheancients7594]

@@chrislivingstone1843 I was just happy to see an academic be challenged on things. Imagine it does happen often by a layman and reacted like I figured he would. Like Macken but believe some of his theories are flawed as we aren’t just animals anymore think a lot of behavior is predicated on society much more than our biology now. Also being in exercise science I know the limitations of studies and experiments and sometimes anecdotal evidence is better.

[@scottverge938]

Women constantly say we should just ask them what they want in a man and such. Only 5% of them say it was because the other guy was hotter. Yet they were also 77% more likely to prefer their affair partner's attractiveness. It's almost like we should always focus on observing their actions rather than asking them.

[@Hethalean]

Introspection is definitely not a reinforced behavior in the west

[@scottverge938]

@@Hethalean some of my friends would say I do too much of it. But yes, overall I'd agree.

[@SV-je8mg]

They didn't cheat because the guy was hotter. They decided to cheat, then found a hotter guy.

[@scottverge938]

@@SV-je8mg Possibly. Nothing I said had anything to do with motivation.

[@M0cambo]

It's always been this way brother. Rules, boundaries and morals fly out the window when they find a man hot enough.

[@citizen_toxie_]

I’ll make it easy for you. People that cheat are terrible people. They didn’t make a mistake. The cheater made a conscious decision. They lack integrity, self control, self respect, and are willing to sacrifice the emotional and mental health of the people they have claimed to love (this includs their children) for their own momentary satisfaction. Cheaters should never be trusted again. You should never risk your emotional and mental health on someone that has cheated in a previous relationship.

[@scottverge938]

The vast majority of our decisions are subconscious and we rationalize them afterwards. So that's your first mistake.

[@citizen_toxie_]

@@scottverge938 no mistake. It’s that simple. Many people have the option and desire to cheat but choose not to.

[@generalknowedgeforkidenglish]

@@scottverge938 Nobody cheats by accident or the desire they can't control. They is NO desire that make a man or woman to throw away their meaningful, loving relationship and cheat with the affair partner who they find attractive. Just purely selfish and inconsider the other's feeling.

[@5ofspades427]

I think that this evolution idea is wrong. Think ppl are groomed to be this way, rather then evolving.

[@nappybiscuit]

​@scottverge938 I agree. No one regrets the affair while it is happening, only after, if at all. We have no free will.

[@warrenfoster11]

254/1,500 is 17% and this was a 'small subgroup'?!?! Fuck!?!? This begs the question: "How many men are currently raising children that are not theirs?"

[@murphymacken]

~2%

[@peripheralparadox4218]

A shit ton. That’s a scientific measurement.

[@wilcosoetman81]

In the UK it is one in ten IIRC

[@wilcosoetman81]

Looked it up, they say one in 50

[@michaelhoudecki3657]

@@wilcosoetman81 That's what "they" would say... It's illegal to get tested some places - this wouldn't be for 2%

[@NorisSpecter]

For "mate switching", you need to convince the new mate to be with you. For "dual mating", you only need to convince him to sleep with you. There's no chance women would admit in a survey they failed to get a guy if admitting they were swayed by looks was already too much.

[@RissaD]

You’d be surprised at the honesty of women in surveys that guarantee their anonymity and reputation isn’t harmed by social groups, and also the honesty they display when you just simply Ask politely

[@Mr_Penguins_Pet_Human]

Not necessarily because often its the single person making propositioning the married individual. I've had women proposition me who not only know I'm married but actually knew my wife! I'm certain men are even less concerned if a woman is married.

[@josephnelson7293]

@@RissaD Where is your opinion on this coming from?

[@RissaD]

@@josephnelson7293 erm I’m a woman who’d be totally honest if I willingly participated in a survey. So my opinion is coming from the way I would behave.

[@josephnelson7293]

@@RissaD The way you worded your original comment seemed as if you had some expertise like you may had worked in research that's why I asked.. so it's just antidotal?

[@simonl2072]

Cheating is a choice, loyalty is a responsibility.

[@SOI-wl2lo]

This is SOO well said!!! 👌

[@Dawglaw7362]

Very well said

[@Anne_Onymous]

I just don't understand why people that don't want that responsibility bother to enter exclusive relationships in the first place. Just stay single if you're not able to be faithful.

[@simonl2072]

@@Anne_Onymous think of it as roulette where the dealer lets them spread their bets. When it's done they don't want to be standing there with no chips and nobody wanting them.

[@apriljohnson1067]

@@simonl2072 cheating is human. Fidelity has to be enforced by culture and religion. Loyalty and fidelity are not the same. Loyalty is the reason we cheat and come home to someone anyway.

[@AcidburnxVx195]

Thank god for paternity tests….ALWAYS get one.

[@nickniehaus1763]

Illegal in France

[@bjkarana]

Poor Joseph, but at least he had a head's up.

[@brambledemon1232]

It should be the law.

[@minglim-pollard1167]

Legally enforceable relationship contracts!

[@threatened2024]

@@brambledemon1232 imagine paying child support for someone else's kid

[@Whatif623]

Cheaters are liars, and liars are thieves because they lied to get something they wouldn't have gotten if they told the truth

[@peripheralparadox4218]

‘Where do you find people who have had affairs?’ I thought he was gonna answer ‘everywhere’.

[@michaelvalentine2821]

Physical attractiveness is mostly not subjective.

[@dumbguydepot304]

My being 6'3 definitely helps plus I've got V taper and look fit. Who knew in East Africa my blue eyes and blonde hair would be considered high value? Gingers get so much undeserved love around here as well it's terrible hahaha. But the looks thing is pretty universal for 99% of women. Mostly objective for sure.

[@ysf-d9i]

I think ugliness is pretty objective, but beauty is subjective; some girl i find super hot, another guy might think is slightly above avg, and vice versa. But we'll all agree who the ugly one is.

[@edmondng655]

If the other man has more patience than you for her BS, more money than you, more attractive, shes gone.

[@Maadhawk]

*Less patience, women prefer men who do not put up with their BS and check them. It is a show of dominance and confidence on the part of a man who does that. It is a show of weakness in men who do put up with their BS. That is also the strongest factor in securing respect from women as well. The rest are factors too, but much weaker when you look at how women behave. That is why women love bad boys. They aren't constantly chasing them because they have money, they chase them because they don't put up with their BS.

[@edmondng655]

@@Maadhawk then explain the dude who slips in when we are fighting with our misses lends a compassionate ear , leading to we all know what end

[@UlzanaDallas]

@@Maadhawklol nice try 😂

[@v9b23j]

@@Maadhawk I'd say anyone, regardless of sex/gender, who doesn't put up with other people's BS is a sign that they have dignity and self-respect, not necessarily dominance. We may find people pleasers useful, but we don't respect them. We generally respect people who have dignity and self-respect, unless we want to manipulate and control them, because then they become a nuisance and a threat to us.

[@igormargulis6302]

@@edmondng655after the « fight » your partner has expressed negative emotions and is more likely to seek positive, and if you fail to create such dynamic, the nice guy who slides in dms and put up with her BS is just at the right moment giving her what she needs. Sex is then the byproducts of right actions at the right moment. That’s why nice guys or let’s say always being nice is not getting you laid right away, but rather at the right time. Otherwise so called nice people who take other people BS get what the want right alway, well you certainly know that’s not the case.

[@Myartspaces]

So to sum it up, not considering the moral issues, if my girl cheats on me, it’s because she has an opportunity to sleep with someone more attractive than me, but still wants my kids and resources. Ok…..

[@aaronleigh8296]

No, doesn’t want your kids but will have them. She wants someone else’s kids, your resources to raise ‘em. Will have your kids just to lock you down to provide.

[@BBartistic]

This is the shallowest thinking right here.. no real woman will ever do this.

[@dallastexas6341]

EXACTLY!!! Now you’re getting it

[@MrGabox345]

she wants you to raise the kids not your kids

[@faismasterx]

@@BBartistic COPE. The evidence literally says otherwise.

[@Falconnner]

What I personally missed in these discussions was the lack of context for the economic, social and other statuses of the study participants. I think that if we take these factors into account, the results can be interpreted much more accurately. Also, for example, the idea that men cheat more often is completely untenable for the following obvious reason: it is not so easy for an ordinary man to find sex even before marriage, because this requires specific resources - appearance, time, money, status. It is much easier for women to get sex: you just need to accept someone's proposals. So why would it be easier for average men in marriage to have sex on the side? If we talk about men with high status, it is the opposite: they are objects of attention and can choose. But they are no more than 10 percent. While women are always objects of attention, regardless of their status.

[@letsgobrandon416]

One of the most logical and articulate comments on here, and a logical argument that so many ignore because of societal lies about men.

[@Falconnner]

@@letsgobrandon416 thank you 🤝

[@v9b23j]

I think some of the reasons why more men than women report cheating in studies is that men, on average, have higher levels of testosterone, which gives them a higher sex drive than women, coupled with an evolutionary desire to increase the genetic diversity of their offspring. And men are more susceptible to mate poaching by women, as Macken said, than vice versa. Also, the third most common reason for men to cheat is sexual desire, which isn't mentioned as one of the highly common reasons for women to cheat in this study. And just because there are more men who want to have sex with women than the other way around doesn't mean that women will take every opportunity, because the biological and emotional costs of sex and infidelity are both very high for women. Most women are selective and discerning about who they will have sex with, or if they will have sex with men who are sexually interested in them at all.

[@ysf-d9i]

a better argument is math. There's always one guy and one woman who are a part of the affair. So, mathematically, it's impossible that men cheat more.

[@Falconnner]

@@ysf-d9i Statistically correct. I almost agree with you. With one caveat: the result of the count depends on the statistical sample. If such a sample includes more high-ranking men, then, obviously, the score will be higher in their favor. If the sample is proportional to the representation of people in different social groups, the score will tend to be equal. Given the difficulty of creating a fair sample and obtaining honest answers in practice, achieving exact reliability is extremely difficult. In addition, this opens up opportunities for manipulation, because checking the quality of the sample is as difficult as creating it.

[@v9b23j]

53:23 Chris just spoke on behalf of the majority of men as to why they prefer not to date or be in a relationship with a single mom although he cited in the context of the Dual Mating strategy hypothesis; "Maybe this is just me as a man, but thinking about some guy, male parental uncertainty, raising another man's children, whether this is or not during a period of ovulatory shift where you are fertile as a woman, um it makes me go like, ugh, it's a little bit more Machiavellian".

[@eastbayboy]

What effect does the modern situation, eg. Birth control and on-demand abortion, impact human sexual behavior and cheating specifically? A hypothesis is that relationship dissatisfaction is a cover for subjects being unable to be self-aware/honest about their sexual activity motives. Women front dissatisfaction because they want to avoid risk and accountability.

[@SeanSingh-v5n]

Murphy's logic is badly flawed: under the dual matting strategy the provider mate does not necessarily need to be a better provider than the genetically fitter mate because the commitment side of the equation for the two male mates is fundamentally different. Providing genes is just a bit of fun whereas raising children is an 18 year commitment. Accordingly, the calibre of man that a woman can nail down for one role vs the other will be wildly different. I would expect that the genetically fitter man would also generally be a better provider but accessing him in his role as a provider is far harder than accessing him as a shag.

[@murphymacken]

How do you explain our empirical finding then?

[@SeanSingh-v5n]

​@@murphymackenSelf reporting bias combined with a possible endowment effect (see the Kahneman and Thaler study involving trading mugs for pens).

[@murphymacken]

@@SeanSingh-v5n so you believe women self-rated affair partners as worse-dad-candidates, and men rated affair partners as worse-mom-candidates, but they were actually better candidates, who weren’t willing to put in the effort? Interesting idea, though I doubt it. Still supports dual-mating, though, doesn’t change the conclusion of the relevant logic.

[@SeanSingh-v5n]

​@@murphymackenI'm saying that is a possibility, but what I'm saying doesn't necessarily go that far. I'm simply saying that given the circumstances self-reports are at best more noise than signal for all of the reasons stated in the podcast plus the reasons given here. On top of this, I'd argue that the provider mate and the genetically fit mate are so fundamentally different that there is an apples vs oranges problem in comparing them (ie you have incorrectly treated nominal data sets as ordinal data).

[@murphymacken]

@@SeanSingh-v5n I am not sure you understand what we did. Do you think we just asked people “Do you think your primary or affair partner is a better dad?” It may be worth reading the study; “Why women cheat” on google scholar.

[@theprogressivemichigander6588]

I don't think that experimental design refutes the mate switching hypothesis. Women picking affair partners might pick more physically attractive partners and then only switch to them if they seem like good parents. People obviously vet affair partners (or any short term relationships) largely based on appearance because it's the first information available. As they get more information during a longer relationship, they can judge based on personality or value as a co-parent or other factors. So, of course, the affair partners are going to be more physically attractive and less good parents. They haven't had time in the relationship to vet them for their personality yet. And the opposite happens with long term partners. They were vetted for physical attractiveness a long time ago and may have let themselves go physically in the interim. So, it's not surprising they'd be physically less attractive than someone actively dating. I also think this data just sounds hopelessly confounded by response bias.

[@Ineedabaefr]

Chris saying, “remember your value queen!!” Hahahaha!!! Love him

[@Mr_Penguins_Pet_Human]

In my experience, women usually cheat to end a relationship or when their emotional needs aren't met, exceptions are those with narcissistic tendencies. I've also noticed from experience that women are more likely to be the one a man cheats with than cheat themselves.

[@Brent-z2s]

Or when they are drunk or when they are ovulating or when they meet a good looking. Or mysterious guy or when they seek revenge.

[@dobby2270]

@@Brent-z2s why men cheat?

[@Brent-z2s]

The Coolidge effect over time the men who cheated had more offspring the men who didn't cheat on so they passed the gene on to more of the population.

[@M0cambo]

This one is going to do numbers

[@lonewaer]

Good segment about male paternity uncertainty, Murphy scored points on that one. I'm always skeptical of him but that's where he got my attention back. The segment that follows however highlights one of the usual flaws in his thinking. When women report their motivations he believes them ; when men do, he suddenly doubts they are telling the truth ? Don't get it twisted, that number seems extremely low and is probably much higher in reality, so yes, the men in that study lied… but then so did women. I will not believe, given that kind of result, on a topic about which men are usually more open about those things than women are, yet still lied quite a bit, that women did not lie. The idea that men cheat more than women, I don't know if I actually believe that. Women will go at greater lengths to not get caught, they will deny it more even if they get caught in a lie, they will rationalize and justify it when they get caught in the act, they'll have good reason, they'll shift the blame onto the man, when really they got caught, they know they're doing it, and it's just as inexcusable as for men. So men cheating more, first it's officially something like a 10 points gap, so 55-45 (men-women), but then I think it's much more equal, if not women cheating more than men, just them taking it to their graves more than men, and them being better at not getting caught. If men will lie about why they cheated, certainly women lied about cheating or not in the first place. Social conformity or ostracization is a strong factor in women's decision making and truth-telling, so if "cheating = bad" socially, and if that's particularly true for women, then women will definitely lie about it a lot, because social judgment is a strong incentive to not be perceived a certain way. But it doesn't stop there : "relationship dissatisfaction", really ? I'm sure it's somewhat high, but if the reason is not some sort of negligence on the woman's part, or some novelty-seeking, or just getting gamed into sleeping with Chad, I'm going to at least doubt the 66% number for "relationship dissatisfaction". The thing is that women lie to themselves, and then believe the lies they tell themselves, particularly immature and impulsive women. When they believe their own lies, and we find inconsistencies, we have to not buy-in into the lies, we have to stop believing them. Just like we do for men : really, only 14% of cheating men are doing so because of sexual desire ? Yeah no, that's way more than 14%. We don't believe men, let's stop believing women, please.

[@rentaleper3816]

👏👏👏 Standing O's for you good Sir. I couldn't agree more

[@murphymacken]

Hang on, “when women say their motivations he believes them,” that’s just not true? I noted specifically, multiple times, the discrepancy between self reports (5% attractive affair partner) and our quantitative data (77% more likely to prefer affair partner), and went on a whole tangent about how humans are storytelling creatures that like to paint themselves as the hero. Watch from: 24:17

[@jazay591]

Men in general cheat less because less men have that opportunity compared to women, but men who have that opportunity do it more from my experience.

[@berenikeb.6668]

Uhhh, I can already hear the screeching of the Banshees "BUT MEN....!!". This is a really interesting study though, maybe we as a species will one day come to fully understand our subconcious workings and actively evolve to be honest with each other; ya know, without hurting someone? That's be great.

[@bentongrover9823]

This will never happen when we don't hold women responsible for for anything.

[@BrookeButterworth]

Dude... I didn't know banshees used the internet. wow. crazy Banshee (definition, in case you didn't know) - A banshee is a female spirit in Irish folklore who heralds the death of a family member, usually by screaming, wailing, shrieking, or keening. Her name is connected to the mythologically important tumuli or "mounds" that dot the Irish countryside, which are known as síde in Old Irish.. cool.

[@rosendomaglasang3744]

@@BrookeButterworth troll - (in folklore) an ugly creature depicted as either a giant or a dwarf. "nobody was allowed to cross the bridge without the troll's permission". Super cool.

[@stunspot]

It's not sexism saying women have no agency in sex - it's political pushback because it brings up the mere possibility of suggesting women might be at fault for something. You are looking at it and seeing the insult in it - saying a man has no responsibility in something is calling him a child without choices. Women are _assumed_ to have no flaw and should always be affirmed. If you disagree, name three thing women can be _blamed_ for exclusively due to their own flaws and of gendered frequency? If you can't name - out loud in public - anything women do wrong, that limbs your Overton Window right there. This isn't saying "psssh! Women are children and can't be held accountable". It's " Women appropriately live more emotionally and can't be blamed for emotion driven choices. It's wrong to apply accountability". They want the agency. The responsibility is kryptonite. Of course rational measurement suggesting human-level responsibility in women would incense.

[@corneliahanimann2173]

How did you end up asking if we can say it out loud in public while it has to rely on the fact that it is based in flaw. That is not okay for men either, it is not cool to say all men are liars or cheats or whatever, but if you need to hear the assumed flaw that women are blamed for then : Getting pregnant (women can get pregnant) Slutshaming (women like having sex) Being annoying (women speak up for the things that bother them) All things people will hold women responsible for, but not men.

[@stunspot]

@corneliahanimann2173 No, I said thing YOU will blame them for. You see? Everything you listed is stuff of traditional ethics but reviled today. I want to know what you are willing to blame women for, not the things you say "society" blames them for but manifestly doesn't. You, personally: what do you think is wrong and toxic about today's women that they need to work on as it is a character flaw?

[@corneliahanimann2173]

@@stunspot oooh I gotcha. Okay so something I think women need to learn, is that not everything is men's fault. As a woman that works in a male dominated field and has done so for the past 15 years, is that women have this warped idea that white men get away with everything, when really it's white rich elite men, and the vast majority of white men struggle the same way women do, and using that part of info, that white men have it easier, is not a reason to not at least try yourself in the job market. Like, most white men had to get over 100 job rejections before and many women are worried to apply for higher up positions or ask for a raise- or negotiate what it takes for a raise, because they have not learned to stand up like that. This is one, I figure there are more.

[@corneliahanimann2173]

@@stunspot i fear my last comment just got autoremoved

[@corneliahanimann2173]

@@stunspot I think something I hold women accountable for is this myth that white men have it easy when it is really only a fraction of rich and elite white men, and the rest experience the same disadvantages as all women do. The excuse that men ruined it for them doesn't always check out, and I learned that as a woman that has worked in male dominated workplaces for over 15 years.

[@JamalW239]

I love the in depth evo psych convos but I don’t like how often people tip-toe around their findings so to not offend certain demographics.

[@scottverge938]

As long as you get what they're putting down, what's the problem?

[@SpecterVonBaren]

​@@scottverge938The way people will miss or deliberately ignore the subtext to argue for a different conclusion.

[@leanna3625]

Podcasts have given the false impression that every scientist should be a charismatic stand up personality with strong political opinions. Sorry to disappoint, but the majority of scientists are cautious about any data they gather and tend to avoid politics unless it’s hindering their work. The ones that are quick to draw conclusions from one or two studies are bad scientists.

[@scottverge938]

@@leanna3625 You nailed it exactly. Scientist are often cautious about their wording. No matter the subject matter.

[@RCGWho]

I hate pretending they have no agenda.

[@nbednar]

I’ll bet Rollo Tomassi is gonna like this finding. 😎

[@Darknight526]

SAY MY NAME

[@BalazsFingszEgyikFingja]

Tomassi is washed up

[@elijahwise3060]

​@@BalazsFingszEgyikFingjaThese guys have been running him up the flagpole because of his stance on the dual mating strategy and now they confirm what he's been saying, that's the opposite of being washed up.

[@merdog3190]

Women have a dual mating strategy. Therefore, they're going to want different things at different times. It would be optimal to have everything in one, but some of these things they want directly contradict what they want at other times. This is very confusing for men and makes it extremely difficult to maintain a woman's attraction over an LTR They don't even know what those things are but they can FEEL it when it's being delivered. Combine all this with intense family, social, and peer pressures on what a good woman should be and you can see how it's easy for them to get very screwed up.

[@threatened2024]

Really well said.

[@theredking3070]

Staying single is seriously the best idea for men 😂

[@elielbourrelly9902]

Alright, i'm ready for the innevitable storm this title will cause.

[@michaelwellen2866]

*grabs popcorn*

[@murphymacken]

We’ll be fine :)

[@agathaloewen877]

It could also be a passive-aggressive means of revenge.

[@Mr_Penguins_Pet_Human]

This definitely happens but likely isn't the primary reason for affairs. Maybe more with one night stands?

[@raphaelantoine7331]

I mean this is why women cheat, the title doesn't mean in any ways that men don't or that they cheat less? There's no reason to get upset

[@2delegy]

I don't know the numbers on who cheats more but women cheat 50% more than they did in the 1950s and men has stayed at the same rate

[@wilcosoetman81]

It’s very obvious why men cheat (spread the seed) but less so for women I suppose

[@Darknight526]

notallwahmen

[@v9b23j]

I'm curious to know how many examples there are from this study where women's dual mating strategy involves capturing an affair partner with better parenting and investment and pairing it with better fitness genes from their primary partner. For example, some single mothers may employ this strategy, so wouldn't it be fair to say that women in committed relationships would use the same strategy?

[@murphymacken]

Such a great point!

[@Sjcstro84]

Imo finding why people cheat is like finding out why people are homeless or why people murder. You're going to find some broad generalizations but not a 1 true answer. You can solve the cheating issue like yoi can solve the homeless issue and the murder issue. You just can't pinpoint human nature. And I'm not peddling some feel good bullshit. Just really think about it. The guy got his answers from a survey. Again let's survey homeless and murderes. You're going to get a general consensus but also a variety of answers.

[@SnakeWasRight]

First off, its a question as to why anyone is monogamous. Much rarer in evolution.

[@hollowpoint1057]

In reference to the discussion @ 42:00, there is a significant difference between gene selection for IVF vs. mate selection. It was explained at the beginning of the interview. Soft trait gene (personality, kindness, etc.) selection for IVF is a CONSCIOUS choice. Female mate selection in affair partners is subconscious and driven by evolutionary factors.

[@annnaxavier]

I love this interview

[@CalenWAV]

Switching and dual mating are not mutually exclusive. Women prefer to switch, finding both investment and attraction. However, if they cannot, they will find both qualities in distinct men.

[@michaelhoudecki3657]

Haven't watched yet, but let me guess... It's the man's fault?!

[@Yarblocosifilitico]

I'm confused: why would 'mate switching' and 'dual mating' be mutually exclusive? They work quite well together in order to have the best potential partner.

[@clarkkent4683]

All this vid I'm hearing “take on meee”🎵🎤

[@Frosty7130]

Thanks Chris, interesting stuff! I must say that the title really put me of from listening, as I was afraid for another one of those wamen bad podcasts. However, I'm terribly happy that I listened to it. Found it very balanced and super interesting. I would be afraid that the title might put of some people to listen to it. Perhaps putting the fact that many people in psych evo are in fact feminists at the start might help ease some listeners in the beginning.

[@Starsky3022]

1:49:12 I love that Macken used that phrase there xD

[@InteractiveIdea]

People are bored sexualy with their current partners, and breaking up is challenging because of but usually children.

[@smallzinc]

An important variable in his study shared at the beginning, is time gap between self reporting and affair event. Over time, feelings and perceptions change and may warp perceptions of the affair partner. Guilt or regret may impact how you see them, and even the opposite such as dreamy memories of "what could have been had I stayed with him/her" skews the data.

[@CalenWAV]

A big missing piece here is that mate switching is not unilateral decision. It presupposes the ability of a female to “lock down” commitment from the affair partner. The higher level of attraction in the affair partner decreases the likelihood of commitment because of his increased optionality.

[@TheHumanRanger]

Prince said it best in "When Doves cry": Maybe you're just like my mother She's never satisfied...

[@corneliahanimann2173]

There is some very disney-romance induced truth to the idea that women have been raised to think true love is infatuation and that the moment infatuation is over, the chase for infatuation starts again.

[@TheHumanRanger]

@@corneliahanimann2173 This is true, I have unfortunately seen this with ALL of my previous relationships. Women have been taught that Prince Charming will ride away with them on his horse to his golden castle... Also, the media romanticizes male self sacrifice, making men 3-4.5 times more likely to off themselves then women in North America... we must be very careful of what messages we take to heart !

[@feliz2892]

That guy is the Isaac Newton of Dating

[@RCGWho]

Dating advice based on animals and one particularly promiscuous tribe in Africa is not helpful for dating.

[@RiverReeves23]

I do have a contention for Macken. I am a very good looking guy and I've had my way with every woman I wanted. I worked in the fashion industry and in make up and I've had models as girlfriends. I can tell you first hand that attractive women DONT have good health and it's been quite the opposite. The ugliest girlfriends I've had have had the best health and the more beautiful, typically the more mental health issues a woman has. Not only this, beautiful women tend to have more addictions and failing health in general. Also, women use baldness culturally now to assess good genes. However, culturally baldness was seen as attractive as it signals masculinity and is natural and modern women seem to not understand genetics and don't realise they will get a "bald gene" from their father and not their partner. So it's completely ass backwards. So yeah, I seriously disagree with the good looking people have better genes. Also, as I mentioned I'm very attractive and I have several diseases, that are genetic. So honestly, I think you need to actually test this hypothesis as you'll find that there is no such thing as "good genes" and that indeed both ugly people and the most attractive people suffer from the same rates of disease. This reminds me of in physics, how a concept can be created 400 years ago and then nobody bothers to test it. Something like entropy, which can instantly be proven wrong by the fact that animals are born. If entropy was a thing then all animals would die after one animal died and the birth of a new organism would be impossible as the process of eating takes chaos and turns it in to order, hence proving entropy wrong.

[@sebastianbillings7807]

Yeahhhh…. I have to agree on your point about looks doesn’t equal =healthy. I used to get stopped by modeling agents when I was younger, women hurled themselves at me. While I have good genetics aesthetically (looking back at old family photos they look like movie stars ) my health is complete and utter SHITTEE

[@threatened2024]

I respect Macken's trajectory; he seemed unlikely to get into controversy, even excessively careful to avoid it in relation to women. He's with the science and is willing to take a hit. He's taken off the specs and gone from Clark Kent to the evil Superman in Superman III.

[@__-bz7wh]

Is no one going to talk about the fact that Macken Murphy choosing to be someone who is in congruence with left-wing thought as an evolutionary advantage in the modern dating landscape where most women are left-wing

[@anthonymyers4516]

Gotta stop promoting these type of thumbnails and titles my brother. Can't even show your page to the females, got them thinking you're one of the enemies. Stay up!

[@josephnelson7293]

I second this lol

[@bjkarana]

I still think that the risk of her current mate finding out about her infidelity/pregnancy would put her and her children (his biological or the other guy's) at serious risk of abandonment, abuse, and reputation destruction, all of which have been part of human social discourse for probably as long as modern humans have existed (250k or so years). I think a more advantageous approach (as far at genetic "fitness" is concerned) is if a woman had children with a high status male and _then_ secured a long term partner of lesser "fitness" to raise them?

[@v9b23j]

I personally know single moms and divorced moms who use the strategy you mention. The men they've had children with are not "high status" but are definitely younger, genetically healthier, but lack resources compared to their current spouse who is older and more financially secure.

[@bjkarana]

@@v9b23j Yeah, I know; I've seen it. My own mother did that and her life has been total (self-imposed) chaos because of it. My dad, on the other hand, re-married a really wonderful woman, my step mother, and is very happy.

[@Just_some_guy_1]

Good luck finding such a man. There's a reason why most men don't go after single moms.

[@bjkarana]

@@Just_some_guy_1 True.

[@v9b23j]

@@Just_some_guy_1 From an evolutionary perspective, the reason most men don't seek out single mothers is because raising a child who isn't his biological child is a cost and a liability to him. Nature designed men to increase its genetic diversity and invest its resources in them.

[@BudFuddlacker]

This guy has a great head of hair

[@murphymacken]

Thanks mate!

[@ompalompa83]

Yes!

[@Pezerinno]

Just sensational

[@BrandonJoelNZ]

I’m sure there are plenty of male flight attendants who would give you a second Biscoff, Chris.

[@CYellowan]

He has become a lot more refined in how he present his data, and it seems he has obtained a lot more. Still provoked though, on how he is blind to "the eye test". It's like he is blind to what psychology is and how it affects the trajectory of people at large. And that it pre-empt outcomes. By like, all measurements that exists.

[@nay.murray6097]

bang on chris... macken says men didnt cheat downward but thats from the mans perspective. from what iv seen, the women who most men cheat with are definitely downgrades from there partners. everyone else can see it except the guy who cheated

[@azraki9794]

Of course yours is 😂

[@omaralonsocastro9162]

Deciding factor is her relationship with her family specially her father. If that is broken or damaged, better picking someone else.

[@gabay123vip]

16:30 The results are better explained by cognitive dissonance than by evolutionary biology: cheaters rationalize their behavior by ranking their affair partners as more attractive than their actual partners, but justify staying with their real mates by convincing themselves that the affair partners aren't suitable for parenting. This rationalization helps reduce the dissonance between their actions and beliefs.

[@rolandfisher]

Assuming that mate switching and dual mating are distinct hypotheses is where his science falls apart. The prediction set he worked with is flawed. Why not cheat for either or both?

[@sirrobinofloxley7156]

So there are red winged blackbirds, pot bellied pigs and all manner of different species of animals, but only humans?

[@cyndic441]

She (and primary) wanted a better bank account from a "good guy" to pay child support without having to go through medical costs of IVF... collect an extra 1/3 $ from an external source. Have the affair, then dump the donor but get paternity from one who would honor his debts. He was good with ANY attention that end in gratification, consequences don't matter until later.

[@craigbenz4835]

The dual mating study seems to have a sample problem. The sample sounded like cheaters that stayed with the primary partner, and it included fewer or none that cheated in preparation to mate switching. If this is true, then of course the study would support dual mating.

[@murphymacken]

Some cheaters mate-switched in our sample. One had even married their affair partner.

[@michamichalak6200]

@@murphymacken dual mating is mostly failed mateswitching.

[@ijbermudez5785]

Don't studies show that of all paternity tests done, Something like 30 percent of paternity tests show that the child does not belong to the assumed father. Now of course I'm not saying that means that 30% of all children are being raised by someone who isn't their father Because not everybody gets paternity tested, but I think the number has to be a lot higher than 1 or 2% as stated by Mr. Murphy

[@wilcosoetman81]

This seems flawed to me for the following reason: It ignores human evolution and just focuses on modern society. In the past, mate switching wasn’t an option at all. We lived in tribes of 100 people. You could not switch to some rando the same way a cockatiel or a modern human can.

[@braendo]

How do you know? Most of the human evolution happend way before the first civilizations and technologies like writing. We dont know, what was acceptable back then

[@wilcosoetman81]

@@braendo there literally weren’t men to choose from back then is what I’m saying. You can’t switch in a 100 people tribe.

[@nytracus9680]

Could they not just walk to the next tribe of 100 people and switch?

[@threatened2024]

He said the evidence for mate-switching isn't great. There's data showing successful hunters in modern hunter gatherer tribes have significant numbers of extramarital affairs, but it definitely would be harder to mask in a small group.

[@wilcosoetman81]

@@threatened2024 an affair is totally different from mate switching. An affair is dual mate hypothesis. Which is clearly the only correct hypothesis if you ask me

[@RCGWho]

38:00 "everyone's a eugenecist" No, ivf is artificial and messed up. Choosing a mate is natural and is, ideally, based on love.

[@v9b23j]

1:00:43 What I often hear in public discourse is that some women disempower themselves by positioning themselves as inactive, lacking agency, and victims when it comes to their mating strategy.

[@Peter.F.C]

There's no reason why it has to be that there is exclusively one strategy and one hypothesis rather than both strategies and both hypotheses happening to be true... Quite obviously some women engage in multiple strategies. Dual mating being one strategy. They get access to the genes of someone who may be unattainable as partner, they are out of their league as far as becoming a partner, or may be less than ideal less ideal than their current partner as a partner. So in that case, dual mating is appropriate. Is optimal. But then there is monkey branching which is also frequently seen. The woman is shopping for her next partner hopefully a move up as far as partners go. She's cheating because she's busy establishing a relationship with the potential new partner and she's also engaging in a bit of try before you buy. Increasing her confidence in that the move to the new partner will be an improvement. Increasing her confidence before the monkey branching before she swings to the next branch.

[@showingpig01]

This might be an inappropriate way to steer the conversation, but I wonder if this man has ever been cheated on. I feel like i can see a little bit of pain underneath this as he’s describing it.

[@BalazsFingszEgyikFingja]

I listened a bunch of his stuff I think its just the normal way he talks. He sometimes takes these pauses to really choose his words well. Also he is a 6 1, fit ex-amateur boxer who is smart and seems nice, he is probably not the most endangered:D (although ofc anyone could get cheated on)

[@Schopenhauer69]

Pretty sure most guys get cheated on

[@Raygun9000]

Adaptive female hypoagency should be taken into account regarding the male protagonist problem.

[@Paradigm7782]

I love how the UK is burning right now and the conversation is about dating

[@Mentesestoicas_]

It’s not that difficult to not cheat. Every time I had any chance of doing in my life I didn’t. Wasn’t hard at all cause I love my wife.

[@schustererik83]

W0men will do whatever they think they can get away with, regardless if it's right or wrong

[@BINGUS712]

This is true of humans in general. Morality is a tool that most use on others, not themselves.

[@adamf7563]

Actually, in all the research, it's been found that men cheat more than women, both in general surveys and clinical research settings.

[@robertmaxa6631]

Interesting. I was under the impression, that monogamy, in people, was a social construct.

[@shantatb6158]

Dual mating strategy/mate switch hypothesis by Dr David Buss evolutionary psychologist, women tend to hook up with Alpha and make rule for betas, it also is more when women are in there menstrual cycle they want strong males compared to women who are on harmonal birth control.

[@sergbee93]

Facts! One of the best books I have read on the subject! I highly recommend people to read Evolution of Desire by David Buss if they are interested on the topic. It actually answers many of the questions people are asking on this vid.

[@RCGWho]

1:02:40 Oxymoron Award Women making strategically "prudent" choices in their pursuit of infidelity. Prudence is a virtue which is defined as wisdom, sagacity, good judgment, caution, and circumspection.

[@TheEgyptian99]

and they wonder why more people choose to be single

[@banesauce7754]

I havent been listening too closely. Ive just had this on in the background so i could be wrong. But this guy doesnt seem to know anything. Literally everything he's said so far is what I could tell you without any survey.

[@richlisola1]

Always get a paternity test boys. And if you spend a lot of time apart from your wife, well, you might as well presume she’s cheating

[@mpersad]

Fascinating discussion. Really adds to the EV Psych debate.

[@Keemin]

Fidelity is not our natural inclination, male or female. Men want to spread their genes to multiple women (literally just follows natural selection -- men who do this would proliferate more and thus pass on this behavior unto future generations). Women were covered in this video. In a world where the only consequences of infidelity occur once you've been caught, you weigh the risk of being caught against the reward (as was stated in the video). This means many will be motivated to cheat anyway. I think this once again supports something I (and from the looks of it, many thinkers a la Richard Dawkins) have been realizing -- we need God. We need divine Law. Only in a world where there is true right and wrong, identity as children of God or as sinners of this world, do the stakes become immediate -- no matter how sneaky and cunning you are in your infidelity, you cannot fool an all-knowing Creator, and neither can you fool yourself of your identity. Though I also personally do believe in God, I am speaking of these things as though there is no God, and yet it seems clearer to me than ever that we humans need God regardless of His existence

[@jennalavena]

i like Murphy! happy to see you have him on

[@murphymacken]

Glad!:)

[@MiyamotoMusashi9]

Power process as explained by Ted Kaczynski, Goal effort and automous attainment of that goal, technology has destroyed our automous efforts

[@RiverReeves23]

What is cheating is simply faulty pair bonding? All of this discussion of cheating being normal and evolution would be complete bullshit. If you look at the divorce stats, what does second marriages tell you about bad apples?

[@crystalnelson314]

Super interesting research! It might be of use to say "attractive genes" rather than "good genes." Would love to see you on again!

[@RussellDeacon]

The genes are sampled through smell based on immune compatibility. It's visceral. Not attractive or good objectively.

[@murphymacken]

Thank you! “Good genes” is the name from the evolutionary biology literature, I don’t really have the power to rename it 😅

[@crystalnelson314]

@@murphymacken Are you sure about that? Maybe you could! Language is malleable and you have a platform.

[@lunamanson9681]

They are good genes though. Things like physical fitness and facial symmetry are good predictors of overall genetic health and quality. Evolution is not an egalitarian program.

[@khizarfarooqui9546]

Like I love evolutionary psychology and it really explains so much of our modern behaviour today and our motivations underlying everything. Although I think focusing too much on it can be self defeating especially if you're a man trying to date as a lot of the theory can get in the way of actually forming a connection be it long term or short term. Treating women like math problems is not the best way to get laid in my experience 😂 Doesn't mean the info not useful but focusing too much on the theory can fuck up your actual game

[@khizarfarooqui9546]

Highly recommend mark Manson's book "Models" it's been my main guiding mental model for dating and has worked pre well so far

[@lurkern]

Absolutely amazing shiw

[@azraki9794]

Id be interested in a study askimg men and women how sexaully satisfied they actually are in realtionships because i think overwhelmingly men would be not happy

[@BritishEcho]

I hate how we are trying to justify cheating. It's not self-conscious that removes way too much accountability from the cheater. I refuse to believe that people who cheat are not 100% aware of what they are doing and are 100% in control of the decision. If you cheat, you are a fu*king terrible human being, end of story. It shows a complete lack of integrity, morals and self control and respect.

[@murphymacken]

Explain ≠ justify

[@gaussminigun]

all the women doing the study are in gender studies, REAL trustworthy and nothing is probably downplayed lmao

[@BrandonMicheals]

Definitely gonna stay single til death, I won’t be cheated on ever again

[@Euphoria_666]

Its 2024. We are not animals and this should've been studied loooooong ago. In conclusion: if you cheat - you are a bad person. If you have "urges" or you fell inlove with someone else - leave your partner. The emotional damage that cheating leaves is terrible not only for the cheated person..later on in life if the person is weak it will affect future relationships, their kids etc. I know its not easy to leave when you have lets say a house together or you are married or you have kids, but believe me, it would be much easier mentally for everyone.

[@murphymacken]

Humans are animals.

[@Euphoria_666]

@@murphymacken Wise words for you to say, bravo 🤦🏻‍♀️

[@TheSupmag]

How is this even a topic. It's so simple. "Ya snooze ya lose" if a woman cheats, you as a man are not providing something. Simple. Be it emotional support, financial, quality time, sexual satisfaction and being on top of your game. Literally that's it. And if you as a man are cheating, ya just lack self control. Why is this a 2 hour video

[@commonwunder]

Drawing correlations from the animal kingdom and modern, complex human societies, is always going to be fraught with issues. You would be better off exploring the similarities, between humans and ants.

[@commonwunder]

@@realistic_delinquent You know that's nonsense. Great Apes will be doing 'great ape type behaviours' for another hundred thousand years without any deviation. Human dating habits have changed drastically 'multiple times' in the last decade... and innumerably since WWII. Psychology is a self-affirming, circular closed system that has no relevance to actual reality.

[@Jay_Hendrix]

I've never cheated in my life I've understood the compulsion How hard is it to keep it in your pants?

[@andreavanda5402]

20 minutes in and it's all gibberish to me. Don't tell me it took him 2 hours to lay it all out. Did anyone listen all the way through?!? 🤯🤯🤯😂😂😂

[@Slowensko98]

a good indicator of people starting to cheat is a noticeable (maybe even significant) change in behaviour usually within 1 to 2 weeks. common changes: late hour work, doing something with "friends", way of communication, frequency of communication and saying "don't worry, it's just a friend", and no the last one is not intended to be a joke (!).

[@BritishEcho]

Dead bedroom or a lack of interest in intimacy is usually a dead giveaway that something is up.

[@v9b23j]

Being evasive about their whereabouts when asked, leaving their partner's texts on read and not replying at all for no apparent reason (if their partner usually texts back in a timely fashion), grooming themselves to improve their physical appearance in their partner's absence, i.e. when they are supposedly on a business trip, etc.

[@RCGWho]

1:32:00 1:34:00 evolution. Utterly obsessed with evolution. And it's sadly untrue. Read Genesis instead. 1:34:00 Some people consider pornography as cheating. Some people consider fantasizing as cheating. "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." Matthew 5:28

[@brettwimberly768]

Information abstaining: I cheated just to see if I still got it. Lol😂