The New Stealth Submarines Explained (Quick Guide)

[@SubBrief]

Very good explanation: A few more factors I would add to this discussion are 1) Effective Target size (aspect) 2) bottom type (hardness) 3) sea state all play a factor in active effectiveness as well. My opinion is that this new design will significantly reduce Active Target visibility in all environments when compared to similar conventional submarine examples.

[@SonB288]

I presume this is the same idea you referred to recently when discussing the Astute's bow? If that was the goal I wonder why Astute and Trafalgar didn't continue the bow chine all the way down their sides. Difficulty mounting the flank array maybe?

[@goodputin4324]

Hi mate can you do a video on Scorpene submarines please

[@watcherzero5256]

@@SonB288 Couple of things strike me on this question, the chine does end exactly where the flank arrays begin, that may have been a compromise where they focused on frontal aspect stealth for approaching a target. Second the torpedo tubes in the Astute are right at the side edge, there isnt any internal space given over to outer hull shaping beyond the pressure hull. Finally the Chine is exactly the same location as the floor of the upper deck, it might be a reinforcement strut to redistribute some of the squeezing away from that particular location (and the same location the forward superstructure) and add increased structural strength.

[@christianjunghanel6724]

I like your channel keep it up what is your opinon on the F 126 is it any good ?

[@mtumeumrani376]

One thing I'd like to point out and what i don't know if you deliberately omitted or missed: the HMS Astute appears to exhibit this very same feature, by about 20yrs. In addition, like astute, subs with this angled feature have a tendency as Astute, to have a slower design speed; because of the hydrodynamics of a angled hull over a teardrop design. Just speculation btw, not a professional.

[@texasranger24]

Another thing to add: the German 212 submarines use Hydrogen fuel cells and batteries. So they basically don't have any moving parts except for the propeller itself. They have reached a point where you can't do much to reduce engine noise anymore for passive sonar stealth. So active sonar was the only remaining weakness, the only thing you could tackle and get better at. Also interesting, the German submarines are usually small because they must be fully operational in just 17m deep Baltic waters.

[@lqr824]

Well, can the propeller be eliminated? I've been able to get good forward speed only using dive planes and buoyancy changes.

[@Adept893]

5:14 I genuinely did not know Germany had a concurrent stealth program. Learn something new everyday. Thanks for another great video!

[@riskinhos]

indeed. best info in the video

[@shaider1982]

Same here. This really is informative.

[@markschoning5581]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBB_Lampyridae

[@goodputin4324]

Never underestimate the uber German Empire

[@Adept893]

@@goodputin4324 ah pretty sure this research was done post 1918. It was probably a republic at the time.

[@michaelkaylor6770]

Unscripted shows your knowledge and confidence. Thanks for the info.

[@HISuttonCovertShores]

Glad it was helpful!

[@goodputin4324]

@@HISuttonCovertShores would love to hear your thoughts on the UK decommissioned nuclear subs still waiting to be disposed til now.

[@Br1cht]

@@goodputin4324 It´s the Russian model, save for a rainy day;)

[@andrewcharles4349]

Glad you started a channel. Been checking out your website for a long time.

[@labschi]

As far as I know: anechoic tiles were first (to my knowledge) used in Germany during WW 2. Called "Alberich" after a dwarven king in german mythology, it was developed in 1931 and applied to multiple submarines in 1941 🙂

[@ramal5708]

Exactly but they were removed because it caused some kind of problems with the sub

[@labschi]

@@ramal5708 the coating wasn't removed, Germany just hadn't enough resources. Only few subs were equipped with Alberich.

[@kreterakete]

Alberich was super cool.

[@Br1cht]

@@labschi No, they had problem with the glue, the tiles started to fall off. I believe that they finally fixed that in late -44 but then it was too late and the Anglo menace triumphed;)

[@texasranger24]

I mean everything from 1920 to 1970 can be summarized by "we had the best German scientists and engineers". Nuclear weapons were developed by a lot of German scientists in exile in the US. The space race? The German V2 rocket engineers picked up by the US vs. the German V2 rocket engineers picked up by the USSR.

[@anthonyburke5656]

Few people realise that weapons designers have “fashion fads”, this is related to sales, I.e. what they can sell and “demand” what the higher ups (superior officers and politicians) want. THEN, there is the corruption factor, both overt corruption I.e. some one gets money to make a decision or covert I.e. some one or some group gets a benefit (free holidays, women, political donations, relatives jobs etc).

[@JohnJ469]

The Navies around the world are finally waking up. In the book "Skunkworks" by Ben Rich it said they did make a quick model and gave it a try. It had a sonar reflection (IIRC) 1/100th that of a normal sub. The USN response was "Submarines are round".

[@hint0122]

My question is if it would work as far as a pressure hull

[@IntrusiveThot420]

@@hint0122 real question from a plane nerd: why would that matter? If the ship is sufficiently hard to detect, then it can simply sit at shallower depths without caring, right?

[@InsufficientGravitas]

@@IntrusiveThot420 There may have been issues when it comes to the body creating hydrodynamic noise. basically the fear was likely that the body would induce turbulent flow in the surrounding air, making noise that can be picked up on passive arrays.

[@bigolmemoryhole6944]

I'm sure I'm not the only person to imagine active sonar emitting drones so that the mother ship can receive the reflections passively.

[@zacharytracy3797]

I believe that is something that can actually be done through the use of active pings from torpedoes. Calculations might be a bit more tricky, but the pings won’t be coming directly from your ship.

[@nraynaud]

actually I came here to raise the same question, some sonars have a remote emitter. And for airspace some systems use the reflections from telecom emitters to spy without emitting themselve.

[@joshkruger6068]

Checkout SOSUS

[@BeKindToBirds]

I think it's a lot more common to have nuclear powered listening station which can permanently listen to an area rather than a drone which has a temporary lifespan. But on the attack into enemy waters remote sonar station drones make a lot of sense.

[@myparceltape1169]

Buoys are placed and moved by helicopter.

[@Rorschach1024]

You can use existing biological noise as the source for a semi-active sonar in which you look for shadows using passive sonar and the more angles you can use to look at the target you will be able to better develop your target location depth and speed..

[@farisshaikh1026]

Wonderful Presentation Mr. Sutton. Thank You and Godspeed.

[@veritypickle8471]

Oo Lampyridae is interesting. Another fine vid, thank you Sir.

[@glynmozzie2143]

The Astute's seem to have some angles in their design.

[@user-lh1ef1st9k]

sure u boat did 😂😆😂😆😂😉😂

[@goodputin4324]

Thank BAE

[@mechantl0up]

The algorithms used for the shape design are typically evolutionary algorithms or genetic algorithms, which are not AI in how the wod is tday used but rather a well-established soft computing practice. They are useful for optimising any computational impossible problem whose outcome can be measured for fitness and who accepts a finite set of input variables.

[@beeble2003]

Eh, the machine learning people like to pretend that they're the only kind of AI. They're not.

[@fishdroid]

I like the unscripted style of video. Most of my favorite sites are definitely of the unscripted type. I think that the unscripted style videos, aside from the "organic" aspects, are that they show more technical knowledge on the part of the video creator.

[@davidste60]

Did you hear about the Lockheed stealth submarine? It never took off. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[@alanbstard4]

aircraft design in Germany stopped when US found out about it? Talk about monoply

[@zhufortheimpaler4041]

the US is not shy about pressuring, sanctioning and harassing governments and companies of allied nations. one of the major actors in industrial espionage and sabotage in europe are the US intelligence agencies, acting vs NATO partners as if they where hostile nations. remember PRISM and other surveilance scandals. the US government wiretapped the encrypted phones of europes governments and did not even apologise as it became public. the US government is not your friend

[@krashd]

@@zhufortheimpaler4041 Exactly, at the moment the US are trying to bully Turkey into dropping their Russian-bought missile system so they can flog them a US-bought system. I wish Westminster would realise that the US are no more our friends than China is.

[@zhufortheimpaler4041]

@@krashd the US Patriot sale to Turkey is going nowhere, as every NATO weapons Manufacturer knows, Turkey is not a trustworthy Ally. They have dozens of contracts with non proliveration clauses with Germany for small arms like G3, MP5 etc for domestic production, that Turkey is ilegally proliferating into Belarus, Lybia etc. Same goes for the turkish Leo2a4´s with their use etc. The US knows, that if they deliver modern high end weapon systems like the newest tranch of Patriot or F35, Russia and China will have the Informations and Details in days.

[@jackmclane1826]

Even if a reflected signal from the water surface and off the bottom comes back to the sender. What good is a reflected signal that took unknown detours and coming from a random position? No distance info, hardly any usable bearing info...

[@joeljacobchandy3838]

Don't worry about too much being unscripted ur videos r brilliant and informative 😁

[@Sugar_K]

very Kool channel.. more techie than sub brief and none of the 'hoorah' BS

[@AdamMGTF]

Couldn't agree more. I like sub brief but he's added America on his American, Americanism when it comes to his view points. It colours the information a bit.

[@krower11]

Same here

[@DrewWithington]

Dolphins use active sonar to locate prey. Thus being more stealthy (having facets) would be an evolutionary advantage to a prey species fish. I wonder if this has happened to any extent.

[@drferry]

It's not actually artificial intelligence that has enabled these designs, it is computers with more computing power to handle the millions and billions of calculations necessary in a reasonable amount of time to simulate the behavior of sound waves in various densities of water reflecting off of of very complex shapes.

[@lqr824]

2:45 "active sonar lets you be heard farther away, typically twice as far." I don't think so--not a naval engineer, but still an engineer. If the target reflected the signal perfectly back as a flat mirror, you would hear it at twice the distance but in fact no target does that. Typical targets will reflect less than 100% of the sound, and reflect it with more dispersal than it came in with, causing reflections to be far weaker. I'm just reasoning from first principles here, but I know aircraft radar can be spotted at 250km despite only seeing targets within 50km. Another thought experiment: at night on a moor, how far away could you see someone with a flashlight? several km if the ground is flat enough, no? Would he be able to see you at half that range? Yes... if you were a mirror. But even if you were dressed in white, so little of his light would reach you over a km that he probably wouldn't see the return light since a white object would scatter light in all directions not just back to the man with the flashlight.

[@Br1cht]

You´re arguing with known axioms that been researched and understood for a very long time I´m afraid.

[@todayonthebench]

I think H I Stutton meant the ship sending out the blip can be heard twice as far away than what they themselves can hear an eco back. Ie, the silent sub can hear the approaching ship long before the ship can hear the eco from the sub.

[@lqr824]

@@todayonthebench yes, that's what he meant, and no, he's wrong on this very narrow point, as right as he is about most other things

[@lqr824]

​@@Br1cht > You´re arguing with known axioms that been researched and understood for a very long time I´m afraid. If so then please cite a source I can refer to that the range to detect an active sonar emitter is only twice its detection range. To be clear I'm not arguing the general shape of the premise, only that the 2x here is likely to be more more like 5x (as it is in aircraft radar as I explained) or higher.

[@xelaxander]

One small comment from someone working with "AI": You'd probably not use AI as a main tool in engineering projects. Most likely they used computer simulation, but that's a massive field and does not mean they didn't use both. Just that AI is not the main choice for such a project. Generally speaking: Few examples with well-understood physics indicates simulation. Many examples with less well-understood physics, and/or fast computation time indicates AI as a main tool. Also in another video, you made a comment on quantum computers on submarines. While I can imagine significant computational power as being extremely useful on subs for any kind of data processing (I bet somebody is developing or has already developed algorithms for sonar) I doubt quantum computers are a massive consideration for the current or even next submarine generation.

[@zoolkhan]

,,, and lets not forget, that the angular hullshape is beeing combined with the sound absorbing coating. One does not exclude the other.

[@TheTonyMcD]

"The Germans are the ones applying stealth right now .. at least visibly" I would say that's not very good stealth then.

[@colinmacdonald1939]

Just a note to say that the classic angular shape of the F-117 was almost entirely down to 1970/80 computing power. The next stealth aircraft, the B-2, was far less angular and the modern F-35 not angular at all. My point is simply that blocky angles does not necessarily equal stealth.

[@saschawagner5167]

Stealth isnt about boncing all signals anyhow since that is imposible no matter how you design your stealth no matter if subs or aircrafts. The goal is to make the return siginal as weak as posible and thus drasistically decreasing the range were the return signial gives the sender any informations. Sonar is a LOTS more complex than radar thogh. besides the metioned surface/seabed bouncing Temperature diference and curents can effect how Sonar behaves. BTW the brits use the same method as the germans in their newer subs......gues they forgot to metioned it to their US allies that this is a thing now. Bit sidenote on arcustic tliles (rubbercoating) For deepdiving subs thease can be quite a problem since the presureddiferences between operational and deepdiving wear them out realtively quickly. Its not like the interatcion beween pasive and active changes thogh. The main factor today are naval drones can be used by any naval ship to deploy sonar boyies in numbers if nessesary were before deployment were limited to a small number of helicopters and dedicated long range aircrafts..

[@goodputin4324]

boncing?

[@idwalwilliams3713]

F 35 of subs Astute being a good ref

[@MrTangent-8]

Is the astute class one of these submarines that are foing for this stealthy pressure hull

[@gustaveliasson5395]

Shoutout to whoever designed the Type-XXIX-H submarine. Bad timing, but apparently a neat idea.

[@MusikCassette]

I think the sharp angles in the early stealth plain have more to do with the difficulty to calculate the radar reflection rather than that they are particular good for that. Newer stealth air crafts are more curved.

[@Br1cht]

Water is more complicated than air.

[@MusikCassette]

@@Br1cht What are you trying to say?

[@jintsuubest9331]

To an extend. There is also the advancement in ram that allow the uses of less stealthy geometry.

[@tranquoccuong890-its-orge]

@@MusikCassette i guess he meant 8:38 there is the thing with the thermocline layer (the layer between the warm surface water and the cold deep water) and different layers of seawater too, as sound waves can be diffracted between the surface and the thermocline, or be reflected from the thermocline back to the depth

[@hisredrighthand5212]

Great video, just one detail: Norway isn't just a customer, it's a joint development and meant to be the beginning of a strategic cooperation in Research & Development of AIP submarines, a German-Norwegian Research facility has been established at TKMS, and both German and Norwegian units will receive maintenance at a Norwegian central facility. The Netherlands have been offered to become somewhat of a third participant in this strategic cooperation if they should decide on the slightly modified Type 212 C/D-E for their new submarines.

[@MattttG3]

That’s really important to know, I wouldn’t have learned that if you didn’t take the time to post that so thank you very much. Idk why we don’t have news that tells us these things in the USA . No real news , just nonsense on the news here 😂

[@hisredrighthand5212]

@@MattttG3 I watched a lot of American news when Trump became president, daily for 1-2 years and as far as cable news is concerned, I'd have to agree. It's 95% domestic, rather petty, and depending on whether you watch Fox or MSNBC, you get everything served with a lot of spin. 🇩🇪 news is more like CBS. News at eight have no commentary at all. News at ten have become more opinionated in the last ten years. Btw, since this seems to interested you: 🇩🇪 and 🇳🇴 signed a general treaty for strategic cooperation in Defense Matters. May seem silly since Norway's rather small, but the whole German Defense Sector ain't that big either. Rheinmetall builds the Lynx, Panther, Boxer. TKMS builds frigates and corvettes, usually with two much recon equipment, good motors and not nearly enough armaments, KMW was grandfathered in as important because they build the Leopard 2. And Diehl build Air Defense, like recently the Iris-T SLM for Ukraine. And that's about it. Maybe 75,000 employees altogether.

[@Kittvkat]

the stealth submarine remind me of Blue Submarine #6

[@jb678901]

Some other factors that make stealth on submerged vehicles quite different from the challenge of stealth with aircraft. For example, longer wave lengths, spherical spreading, cylindrical spreading, SVP and convergence zones, etc.

[@johnhogan8525]

VERY well done! Excellent graphics! Well narrated! Nicely organized!

[@patrickchase5614]

Hasn't this approach been hiding in plain sight on the Astute class?

[@AndrewLambert-wi8et]

SO SWEDEN A26 NOT HAVING THE SAME.

[@johnh8615]

As the details come to surface could you do a video of Australian submarines and the future nuclear attack subs please? Thank you 🙏

[@telinoz1975]

2nd that. I am Australian. Keen to see if they go for US based platform or UK based platform. The pros and cons for both would make an interesting video.

[@frosty3693]

@@telinoz1975 No expert here, but I expect it is going to depend on how fast the subs are to be aquired and who can/and will supply them with a possible loan/rental of boats not currently being operated by the supplier.

[@olegolkha34]

@@telinoz1975 gentleseas.blogspot.com/ In more detail. Perhaps the aerospace forces are more promising?

[@robertwilliamson4456]

The French subs we rejected were nuclear, we asked for diesel, why didn't we just say "change of plans" we'll go back to nuclear. I suspect or AUKUS allies were passed off that the French would get the money. As I understand the French was a more recent design than UK, or USA.

[@ianstobie]

​@@robertwilliamson4456 but smaller, so less weapon options

[@wntu4]

When H.I. Sutton talks, people listen.

[@welshpete12]

Excellent and clear explanation as usual , thank you for posting !

[@user-lh1ef1st9k]

sounds like what those cartel will always dreamin about lol

[@Lyndalewinder]

An angular outer casing would be easier to fabricate and the tiles would likely stay on better. When you see a boat return to dry dock for maintenance there are always numerous tiles missing.

[@mortified776]

How am I just learning you are on YT?! Algorithm, you have failed me!

[@VectorGhost]

that 1980 design looks insanely advanced

[@LuckySoaringTiger]

Aircraft have ECM. So modifining incoming waves to their advantage. Do subs have something similar?

[@JeKramxel]

Great video, as always! Really interesting how technological developments can force a continuous cycle of one technology over the other, being replaced by each other in a loop. That is ongoing until a major breakthrough happens, or a major technological leap is achieved.

[@robertnemeth6248]

Astute Class also uses active deflection with angled hull plates. Especially noticeable on the front and upper hull.

[@marienfeld07]

Very good Hutton, previous works by the germans paved the way for today . The example are the models XXI and XXIII and my favorite the Horten 229 jet the first with the available materials of that time.

[@BlackhawkPilot]

You should do one on the rubber coating. First developed by the Germans in WWII. Two layers, one with a specific pattern of holes with the signal absorbed by the 2d layer.

[@matt79de]

Thanks, great video. I wasn't even aware that Germany was about to upgrade the 212 class. Just for the heck of it: Here's an official video by ThyssenKrupp: kzbin.info/www/bejne/baazlpKpZamZpMk

[@ianmcsherry5254]

You might also add the British Astute class to the list, at least because of the bow section, aft to around where the foreplanes are located, which is noticeably more angular than the hull continuing aft of the foreplanes. Something else that occurs to me is that the future use of UUVs, deployed from larger boats, will permit a "stand-off" active sonar capability, where a relatively expendable asset, at a distance from the mother craft, "goes loud", paints the target, and transmits the data to the attack boat, which can then put in an attack, hopefully leaving it much less vulnerable. At least until torpedo launches are detected.

[@goodputin4324]

Thank BAE

[@Frog13799]

How do the hard chines affect water flow? Doesnt it make the passive signature larger/louder.

[@benjaminreicherzer4704]

😂 Our Stealthprogramm (Germany) is so stealthy... it's doesn't even exist...

[@lqr824]

Active sonar was self-defeating to use back when the main place for the sonar was the sub. Nowadays sub drones and stationary sentries are powerful and cheap. I imagine a sub may have "loyal wingmen" doing the pinging.

[@Fuddleton]

Your analysis of stealth fighters is incorrect. We have stealth aircraft without faceted designs, like the F35. The reason older fighters are faceted is because the computer analysis methods back then couldn't do complex finite analysis for EMI, so they simplified the methods based on what they expected incoming radio waves to look like. Additionally, stealth aircraft still aren't invisible to radar. They make a signal, but it's harder to distinguish it against noise. Bosnia famously shot down an F117 by recognizing it's flight pattern, and tuning their radar sweeps specifically to look for the flight pattern previously positively identified.

[@johnwang9914]

Interesting but the B2 showed that the complex calculations needed for smoothly curved shapes are possible hence there's no longer a need for the flat faceted surfaced of Have Blue and the F-117 Nighthawk. Also, these "stealth" shapes simply deflect the signal away from the emitter so this kind of stealth is ineffective if there is an unpredictable distance between the signal source and the hydrophones (receivers). With radar and planes, it has been suggested that the background radio emissions from cell phone towers be used to illuminate stealth aircraft as the geometry between the towers and the radar receivers would be variable and hence could not be accounted for by the shape alone. Likewise, with a tradition of wireless connected hydrophone buoys and the seismic acquisition techniques of towed hydrophone arrays, such stealth shapes should be easily countered. I would be more interested in meta materials directing the sound around the submarine though what we publicly know of are only effective at specific frequencies and low frequencies at that. Calculations for a selection of frequencies may be computationally difficult perhaps even impossible and the scale of the construction may be very fine for higher frequencies and hence difficult to manufacture.

[@johnwang9914]

Interesting but the B2 showed that the complex calculations needed for smoothly curved shapes are possible hence there's no longer a need for the flat faceted surfaced of Have Blue and the F-117 Nighthawk. Also, these "stealth" shapes simply deflect the signal away from the emitter so this kind of stealth is ineffective if there is an unpredictable distance between the signal source and the hydrophones (receivers). With radar and planes, it has been suggested that the background radio emissions from cell phone towers be used to illuminate stealth aircraft as the geometry between the towers and the radar receivers would be variable and hence could not be accounted for by the shape alone. Likewise, with a tradition of wireless connected hydrophone buoys and the seismic acquisition techniques of towed hydrophone arrays, such stealth shapes should be easily countered. I would be more interested in meta materials directing the sound around the submarine though what we publicly know of are only effective at specific frequencies and low frequencies at that. Calculations for a selection of frequencies may be computationally difficult perhaps even impossible and the scale of the construction may be very fine for higher frequencies and hence difficult to manufacture.

[@dyllanwoolston5546]

Please make more videos these are great

[@jacobsparry8525]

What about sound camouflaging? Could not they maked the anechoic layering gived back a return as liked a whale and then to sended an active sound of a whale ? Has anyone ever tried for that ever? - And no I amed not any of submarines engineer or as that. Just I am 14 and I am just being curious of it. I know it they do hear them, even do they hear the Mantis Shrimps and Tiger Pistol Shrimps whiched do use they snapping claws to maked supers sonic sound/ pressures/ heat attacks on prey and even they haved brokened persons fingers that way. Submarines do hear them for many off miles but whales would gived backed a huge signature of SONAR and theirs songs cand geted heard for hundreds of miles

[@tonylittle8634]

Great video but you left out the American Navy’s real weapon. That being CRT/ diversity trained warriors with rainbow striped unicorns. 😜

[@gegwen7440]

Yet more lorry loads (yes if you saw it it would be) of money poured into weapons that will never be used (odds on) yet a pittance spent where it matters at the border.

[@aidanhammer6968]

The drawings Sutton makes are in MS paint. This man has such an intimate understanding of his subject

[@blackmancer]

it seems like a really good idea until you get detected. I say this because when the angle of incidence is almost 90 degrees (depending to distances between the objects), you've suddenly become a massive blip. submarines lack the speed to evade unlike an aircraft, knowing the dimensions of the submarine will provide a reflective signature of each panel and that is trackable. because the size of the flat surfaces are not the same this further characterizes the submarine profile. futhermore, unlike air, the oceans have a bottom that reflects back and thus anything that doesn't reflect will shadow the sea floor. in deep waters this is not an issue but it may factor in shallower waters. overall I think it is a net benefit, but not a huge deal.... *reclines back in computer chair, my work here is done.

[@jimkirk4357]

Curious to know what is between the outer stealth hull and the inner pressure hull. Whatever is in that space is going to dramatically affect performance either adding ballast or buoyancy and of course test depth and crush depth would also be affected. I'm fairly sure the depth performance will be "classified" but an educated guess perhaps?

[@Hurricane2k8]

In case of the regular Type 212A submarine there are oxygen and hydrogen tanks for the fuel-cell propulsion between the two hulls.

[@Weesel71]

Essentially it's about wave reflection, no? Radio (electromagnetic) wave and sound wave.

[@bieneulm1982]

You hopefully do know, that Germany doesn´t need to adapt american stealth technology such as the overaged F-117 that wouldn´t had stand a chance against Germanys MBB Lampyridae already in the 80s?! It has all that on his own, regarding submarines has it all that since the late second World War. The thumbnail is therefore a bit confusing. The first stealth submarines were being build by the German Kriegsmarine to counter sonar measures in the endgame of the war. The first submarine that could be called that was invented in Germany: Walther-U-Boat (later on known as Type XXI). German technology everytime was the forerunner to what bad copies came out in the US later on.

[@TrojanHell]

have to say it; F-117 is not a fighter, but an attacker, despite the misnomer "F" in its type number. It was designed to not manoeuvre much and is easily beaten in a turnfight by nearly any other aircraft. It needs to fly in low radar coverage areas, and get out before scrambled fighters can get up to catch it.

[@jeffcauhape6880]

Just had an interesting thought: If the stealth sheath over the hull had an embedded material in it angled to reflect sonar, you could go back to having a smoother, less turbulent exterior shape by relying on the angles of the embedded material to reflect sonar rather than the physical shape of a homogeneous material.

[@paulh2468]

As I understand it, stealth jets already do this. They have angled ‘echo chambers’ inside the jet to increase radar deflection. This is one reason why the F35 is much more aerodynamic than the old F111. No doubt, weapons designers will have thought of things long before you and I will.

[@jamesperry1358]

That's the principle of metamaterials. But the challenge is always matching the acoustic impedance of the metamaterial to the impedance of the water, because it is at impedance changes that reflections form. If you can get the wave into your metamaterial then you could acoustically "cloak" your submarine by guiding the sound around it. But that is a LOT easier said than done.

[@jeffcauhape6880]

@@jamesperry1358 This is probably a dumb question: Does the acoustic impedance change with pressure, or tep, or salinity?

[@jamesperry1358]

@@jeffcauhape6880 No idea, I do EM. The physics of wave propagation are very similar between acoustics and EM but I don't know much about acoustic material properties. I think it is mostly a property of temperature but dont take my word for it.

[@johns70]

One of the big problems with this, and the angled hull, is hydrodynamics. They are similar to aerodynamics, but by no means the same. friction and vortices created by "rough" surfaces or edges might cause sound that is even MORE telling than the sub itself. Kind of why the F-35 is not invisible in rain. The "splatter" can be seen by sensors and infer where the plane is, even when the plane itself does not show. Some thing if a sub is too angled. The edges will cause the water to stir in different ways, that might be picked up easier than from a drop-formed sub.

[@Veldtian1]

The Norhtrop 'Tacit Blue' stealth testbed actually looks like a flying stealth submarine hull🤣

[@paulfribbs8516]

Not sure how good rubber paneling is at absorbing sonar when it gets harder as it compresses at depth! 2ndly whales are something sonar picks up as active, but non metalic contracts! You can also tell if they are closing or opening range! ;p Cold layers are the best way to hide from sonar as the beam digs in or bounces off the layer pressure difference! Dimpling the rubber would be the best way to diffuse an echo return! Turning a round profile into many flat surfaces doesn't sound like a great strategy!

[@angusarmstrong6526]

Not scripting your videos actually gives them a more relaxed and conversational feel which I really like.

[@H.P206]

Without the US, Germany would have a way more modern and Advanced military then today

[@phil20_20]

I figured out a "Stealth" design over twenty years ago, but the problem is the extra turbulence created by the angular hull. You can still detect it with passive sonar.

[@jb678901]

Yes, agreed! Hydrodynamics would definitely play a big part insofar as operating envelope/efficiency, too. Clearly, screws would be OUT in favor of specially shrouded propulsors (or even magneto hydrodynamic propulsion...the "caterpillar"). Also, I would imagine a stealth boat would have to be exceptionally well-trimmed to avoid deployment and use of control plane surfaces (e.g. retractable bow planes). I am not convinced this will be viable with large boats (modern nukes, etc.).

[@ryanjones3043]

QUESTION!- does sonar have a different efficacy at different depths??

[@Chrischi3TutorialLPs]

In theory, you could simulate this with an RTX. Just simulate the parts of the sonar pulse that should reach it in 2 bounces, and then simulate the pulse as a bunch of rays eminating from one source. Set the water, the thermal layer, and the surface to be reflective layers to the degree that they are, and you get a good approximation (at least from my understanding of this topic)

[@ALegitimateYoutuber]

bro that's super clever. might not be the most accurate way. but would be a very affordable way to rough and sketch things out. And probably still reach functional designs.

[@Chrischi3TutorialLPs]

@@ALegitimateKZbinr Yeah, though you'd need to run a more detailed analysis to make sure probably, but rapid prototyping is kind of a big deal nowadays, so getting a rough idea of wether it works is a good start. And besides, i dont see why an RTX wouldnt be able to do the detailed version too. You'd need to trace more rays, sure, but in theory, sonar behaves enough like light to make it work anyway with a few adjustments, at least as far as i know.

[@ALegitimateYoutuber]

@@Chrischi3TutorialLPs regardless that is a genius idea for a lot of independent or small company's to explore ideas with. Since a real pain in the ass is simulations. because it's either always insanely expensive, not for sale, or requires a huge amount of set up.

[@Chrischi3TutorialLPs]

@@ALegitimateKZbinr Start a company thats all about running the simulations thats too exhausting for everyone else to run... interesting idea, i must say.

[@ALegitimateYoutuber]

@@Chrischi3TutorialLPs honestly i'm kinda working on that but for a shop space. Because i'm formally from the independent side of things. And you have zero restrictions there. And i would like to bring a similar to the public. Just sucks how expensive such things are. But baby steps. unless i get super lucky and can form another IRG (independent research group). Though if you as smart as you have lead me to think you are. you start that idea. Because offering that kinda of simulation service without restrictions or monitoring. Oh man, you'll get easy attention.

[@Margarinetaylorgrease]

the best solution to ASDIC is penciling.. Thank you, I'm here all night

[@keithtravelrn]

Its not like radar... disappearing isn't hard to do in the ocean.. been in many multimodal group ops while serving on a submarine. and I like the information but simple fact is, the ocean is very noisy and its easy to spot a " silent" zone and boom that is where the sub is located. The only use of angular hulls is to limit radar signature on the surface, underwater it just makes it easier to do some trig to complete target id based on the particular angles of that submarine. Only way to make a stealth sub is to have it repeat the background noise to cover its location as it moves.

[@martinolivera3580]

Great video as usual. An here is Aaron as well commenting !!!!!!!!!! oO !!! How cool is that?

[@albm706]

Stop smacking your lips. Too much talk on stealth planes. Gud info poor presentation.

[@LudusArtifex]

i mus say that even as a german i didnt knwo of the "MBB Lampyridae" thx fot telling

[@Lithos2k]

Autonomous underwater vehicles and underwater drones could bring new age of active heavy environment to naval battlefield, painting targets to silent killers that lurk elsewhere. These sonar cross section reducing designs might suit very well there.

[@Skankhunter420]

Another great episode! Thank you Mr Sutton!

[@notsaying743]

Why keep asking me!?!? Or are you practicing to be Australian?

[@JonathanGeier]

Hey H I Sutton, great videos. You should reach out to Sub Brief on KZbin. He always gives you shout-outs. It would be great to see a co op or something.

[@JasonCummer]

3rd video in a row. Very nice even unscripted. I wish I had know about this channel long ago

[@frankthompson6503]

Would rubber shields give noise propulsion a cover for not being heard. Noise reduction no signature for sonar

[@ryancheesman400]

I would think with this design you'd get a lot of extra dead space outside of the pressure vessel. I would think that you could slide your launch tubes and torpedo tubes outward and into this dead space, leaving a lot less if the tubes in the pressure vessel, which would open up interior space. I would look into mounting as much hardware as you can between the outer skin and the inner hull that you can get away with.

[@olympiand4073]

gee- the USN should hire you!

[@solarissv777]

Seems to be the perfect spot for lithium batteries: they can widstand high pressures and putting them inside the actual living space is a fire hazard. Seems to be a win-win to me.

[@RobinTheBot]

Boy howdy am I glad y'all aren't building subs! I'm sure it's full of the real magic sauce in this "stealth". What kind is anyone's guess... I'll go with some kind of very special foam, but it could be the prayers of schoolkids and we would not know.

[@stupidburp]

Perhaps just use the space as extra emergency ballast tanks. Divide the space into sections and force water out of all of the undamaged ones in case of emergency.

[@BeKindToBirds]

That is the goal but currently crew is still needed to maintain batteries and torpedoes often enough they need access during cruise. As technology continues in improve in reliability I am positive that external batteries and torpedoes will come about. But for now we are still needing human beings to be able to put their hands on these things

[@GarfieldRex]

Nice video. Question: these shaped hulls reduce the capacity of going deeper? Also, what's the sonar range? Can a submarine avoid detection by doing deeper? Thank you in advance!!

[@Daimo83]

Not if unpressurised, although weight could be a factor

[@GarfieldRex]

@@Daimo83 thank you!

[@suhan8382]

90 degree and less is acting like car cat eye reflectors.120 degree is about ideal for outer angles

[@doanviettrung]

The sonar source is far away, reflections from shorter panels would miss the sender, so why are they so long?

[@CompSci10507]

At 8:29, you say that "each of those bounces reduces the noise" -- does not each bounce increase the noise and reduce the _signal_ in what reaches back to the sending sonar?

[@stuartthornton3027]

Wicked break down thank you. Would you class the Astute as having stealth characteristics?

[@JoeOvercoat]

Thanks! P.S. The planes on the boat have to retract/fold or otherwise be taken out of the geometry or it will be the Achilles Heel of such a boat.

[@machdaddy6451]

Sounds like the same things that make a airplane stealthy can also be used to make a submarine stealthy.

[@billcrismon]

Please, keep it unscripted... It comes off much better...

[@Stadtpark90]

5:14 “was stopped when the US found out about it” (- means the US demanded to stop the development... - afaik MBB had only ever built a scale model (I think 1:3) for Radar and Wind Tunnel tests by the time the US intervened)

[@Mork2001]

Why was West Germany forced to stop the development of stealth aircraft by its ostensible ally the Americans?

[@Stephanthesearcher]

it was bevore 1990 and germany was not a sovereign country and legaly still under allied command.

[@Mork2001]

@@Stephanthesearcher okay thanks.

[@Statist0815]

And the rubber tiles are also invented in Germany. (Alberich)

[@louisquatorze9280]

Unscripted is better than most others scripted. Thank you.

[@davidholmgren659]

Excellent. Unscripted adds more 'character' to the video.