The New Wave of Fast Chinese Carbon Bikes | The NERO Show Ep. 82

The third wave of Chinese cycling products have arrived, better quality, aero testing and higher prices, what do we think? The Shanghai bike show blows our minds with some new product and brands while Chris makes his gravel debut.
Chapters
00:00 intro
00:30 Third Wave Asian Brands
10:08 Comparing Mainstream To Asian
23:02 Shanghai Bike Show Highlights
29:10 Pro Cycling Struggles
33:35 My First Gravel Race
41:10 One Bike To Rule Them All
52:28 Does Shoe Stiffness Matter?
Presented By Pillar Performance
Use Code NERO To Get 15% Off
Footage Courtesy Of
@ChinaCycling
@fede1275
@davidarthur
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INSTAGRAM: @chrismiller27 @nerocontinental
TWITTER: @chrismiller @nerocontinental
STRAVA: / strava
Check Out Jesse's Coaching: www.nero.club/coaching

[@natheirabu-dahab1446]

37 minutes in and this feels like a Jesse Coyle therapy session. I love it lmao

[@matkrek]

What I come for every week

[@KevinMatassa]

Not me. Thankfully I can skip over his indifference.

[@johnnydarko8031]

same.

[@fede1275]

Thank you Chris, I might need to change my channel's name to "Ride by Feel" by Federico 🤣

[@michaelhoile1369]

One by suck. ...don't talk shit.

[@_gregvalencia]

I think the key distinction that you guys miss about the "1 bike to rule them all," is that the people that would be interested in something like that aren't competitive at all. They are maybe going on a regular no-drop group ride, a gran fondo or two a year (for fun) and then want to bring their bike with them on a camping trip where they would want some gravel tires. They ride for exercise and not for sport. For them the "1 bike solution" is ideal, but I agree with Jesse that if someone has an ounce of interest in competing, then the do it all bike is a money pit and also makes buying a second bike harder. It's easier to justify jumping one end of the spectrum to the other, climbing, TT, aero. But to jump from an all around bike to either aero or climbing is tough when you're kinda halfway there and makes the do it all bike feel like even more of a waste

[@weltverloren6277]

Aero gravel race bikes (like the Kanzo Fast) fitted with road wheels are within 4 watts at 45kph (as tested by TOUR) of high end road race bikes like the S-Works SL8. At 35kph, that's less than 2 watts. There are plenty of road race bikes which are measurably slower, even in the TDF (like the Colnago). If you pick the right gravel bike, you can absolutely still ride very competitively even on the road.

[@ArnageLM]

100%!

[@donbarnard82]

I'm not competitive in that I don't enter races (though I did enter a climbing race for the chance to go up a climb that is ordinarily closed to bikes, as did many others at the 'race'). I do look at strava segment times and I am interested in my own performance, and to some extent my performance relative to others like my friends. I do explore an equipment angle sometimes in regard to that interest in performance. I started as a mountain biker, and eventually got a road bike in 2015 (trek emonda), but since then my emonda is glued to my trainer and I don't mountain bike anymore. Instead, I have a gravel bike (specialized diverge). While I'm still interested in performance as I described above, my primary interest is in adventure. I seek out new roads and places to go on my bike. Having a set of bikes for different situations doesn't suite me because in the context of a single ride I'll be on pavement, dirt, or mild trails. There's also an appeal to using the same bike all the time like it's your loyal steed. :) In other words, the do it all bike is not to save money on bikes, but because I need one bike that does it all reasonably well. If I seek equipment upgrades for performance, it's more like which 40mm tire is faster, rather than a 30mm tire would be faster than a 40mm tire. A bike could be more aero or weigh less, but it still has to be a gravel bike. My rides are long duration, so an aggressive fit doesn't work. I also prefer more relaxed handling than my emonda which made me nervous sometimes. Having said all that, I have entertained the idea of using my emonda on a couple of close by strava segments wondering if I can improve my time enough to move ahead of a friend, or to move from 4th to 3rd, but I haven't done it. :)

[@DaveNoakes]

This!

[@MichaelBoogerd]

Not sure why you're not psyched about the Giro... the first 6 stages have actually been very good quality - first & sixth stage ridden like 1 day race, stage 2 MTF with Pogi riding away (but not to too crazy gaps), stages 3-4 with a good exciting sprint finale - with quite a deep field for sprinters, and stage 5's breakaway making it... there' hasn't been a purely dull day yet, despite the "narrative" that this is just 20+ days riding around Italy and then Pog wins.

[@Type2Cyclist]

“One bike to rule them all and in the gravel bind them!”

[@thereeder5rs]

Chris, you can't have "The One bike" conversation with a "Roadie Only" rider. Until he gets a taste of gravel, he's a lost cause😎.

[@BikesKomsCRO]

I have a road bike Boardman SLR AXS and a gravel BIKE Canyon Grizl and think that's the happy medium.. Wouldn't wanna ride grizl on road and vice versa. This is where n+1 actually applies.

[@nomadtrails]

@@BikesKomsCRO funny. I have a Lauf Seigla for gravel, and I put 32mil slick tires on it for the road. But where n+1 "actually applies" to me is my full suspension mountainbike 😆It's all relative. You literally can't ride a gravel bike down gnarly mtb descents, but you can ride it on the road all you want.

[@ExplorinDoranRBrown]

I ride everything. Gravel, mtb, road, An XC bike is the closest thing to one bike to rule them all. Lock out the suspension on the streets, put some narrower slicker tires. I have a fat bike a Salsa Beargrease it might be the most versatile machine. Fat tires for snow and sand racing . Summer wheels and a suspension fork for mtb trails. Narrow slicks for road use. Mounts everywhere for self supported ultra endurance racing , Iditarod Trail Invitational!

[@donbarnard82]

@@nomadtrails There is a limit of course, but it is fun to underbike with a gravel bike on some trails. Mostly what I'm doing is seeking out quiet country roads, which often end up being gravel, and sometimes end up as unmaintained class 4 roads. The class 4 type road is where an mtb would be better, but you can get by with a gravel bike.

[@donbarnard82]

@@ExplorinDoranRBrown My one bike philosophy is one bike that does what you want as is without swapping wheels, but it depends on the types of riding you want to be able to do whether that is possible or not. A hard tail is a good choice if you're riding mostly dirt and worse, but as you move towards the other end of the spectrum, a gravel bike starts to make more sense. Any bike can get by on pavement, so from that point of view, we could all just ride full suspension mountain bikes. :)

[@veganaus]

The redbulls cans in the background give this podcast an x-factor and make me think it is very cool

[@daviddjerassi]

Would you agree its Joe who builds in the Buzz day after day from the Shanghai show his delivery was off the charts never missed a beat and covered more ground each day than he got credit for.

[@notkaty]

Joe is doing great work getting western eyes on these Chinese products

[@Chazz4804]

Really liked Jesse's breakdown of the Chinese brands vs western brands, great timing too. Seka working with aerocoach was a genius marketing move.

[@Silidons91]

When they were comparing the bikes...the Chinese frames included handlebars, stem, seatpost...so it's actually even cheaper than the other brands by even more money.

[@matthewbenger8355]

My best mate (30 years old) is that unicorn. He's got a cervelo aspero, with two wheelsets, gravel set with 42mm tyres and a set of 50mm hunts with 32 GP5000s. He's rode the aspero at dirty reiver (UK Unbound), raced badlands and a huge gravel bike packing adventure through Tajikistan on his own. He's also come on training camps with us to Tenerife and fast group rides. Doesn't race granted but he's pretty fast, but definitely more a "vibe" guy. Its 1x GRX as well. Does spin out on descents sometimes but only if absolutely nailing it. He absolutely loves it, been 3/4 years now and won't change

[@DustyMoth.]

Jesse is 100% right about the 1 bike. That was me when I bought the Aspero 3 years ago. I quickly realised that I needed more bikes for specific disciplines. Also less hassle, no need to change wheels or tyres

[@rmb_dev]

I don't race and have a bike that can do light gravel (with 35 mm tyres) and local climbs in Ottawa! My bike weighs 8,5 kg with pedals. It's amazing to have one bike - less storage needed, less maintenance, only swap the wheels and ready to go. Want to upgrade to a new BMC Roadmachine in the future eventually. Ideally, I would prefer an all-arounder bike (for road/gravel) and an XC mountain bike. P.S. "Where are these one-bikers?" - All over the world Jessie, not on your local crit-park ) The market for "one-bike-do-it-all" will grow eventually, most of the people in the world buy bikes to ride with friends - not to race like you and Chris do. Please think outside your bubble sometimes )) P.P.S. Great podcast tho, like to hear your thoughts about the bike industry and racing.

[@Mr5mile]

One bike with 2 wheelset dude here

[@chrisrouisse1690]

Jesse talking to a coaching client: "I'll coach you for your gravel race, but here's Chris's number for when you want someone to listen to your gravel equipment questions and discussion."

[@kevinbarkema1666]

Chinese Frames are always going to be a fringe/niche market until bike shops carry complete builds with guarantees comparable to mainstream brands.

[@matkrek]

In Toronto Canada, Forza bike shop is stocking Winspace. Definitely helping with the popularity

[@helmetculture]

​@@matkrek thanks for the information checking now

[@matkrek]

@@helmetculture I build up a Winspace T1550 rim brake through them, really impressed with the customer service and the build performance

[@jakethesnake1976]

Same with Canyon in my opinion, nightmare customer service having to ship back to Europe with no local dealer support

[@SeanHogan_frijole]

Giant or a Chinese bike? Giant every time

[@PJC_001]

Re: Giro. It's the first one I've actually been interested in watching simply because Tadej was racing it, and so far he's delivered. When has the pink jersey ever attacked on a sprint stage?! He takes expectations and 'norms' and rips them to shreds. I hope he does the double, then wins Worlds.

[@tommyfreckmann6857]

Oh, me too!

[@toddmcdonough]

I like the do-it-all bike because sometimes when I leave for a ride, I have no idea where I am going or where I will end up. I might just stay on the road or I may see a dirt path that I cannot resist.

[@WerdnaLiten]

The majority of new cyclists aren't going to be interested in racing; they're in it to enjoy getting outside and having fun.......Any decent salesman should be selling them an All Road/ Gravel bike, not a Race bike.....

[@MichaelBoogerd]

this has been the case forever... with the number of road users increasing the opportunity to race is becoming less and less... so the market for more recreational cycling is obviously higher than the pure race crowd... in 90s the MTB dominated this recreational market, but most recreational riders didnt use a MTB for full-on trail ripping etc... so that's why for the same style of riding, these days the gravel bike is the go-to for these recreational cyclists.

[@simong17]

Chris - based on the gravel bike photo : it's good to see you spent time on the background composition 😊

[@justwastingtimeaway]

Yep, can't tell whether planned as an "artistic industrial style" photo or just rolled out the door snap, oblivious of background. Either way its hilarious!

[@theoswinscow]

This giro has been great so far! Not one boring stage

[@bikenurse]

I think the difference between Chinese wheels and Chinese frames is that most cyclists are comfortable changing their wheels on their own but many cannot/will build up their own frame and are not willing to buy a Chinese frameset and take it to a local shop to have it assembled.

[@n.eilo_rides]

Speak for yourself, I would say the opposite from my experience

[@markj.a351]

@@n.eilo_rides you're more comfortable building an entire bike rather than changing your wheels?

[@robertask9027]

that's why I love Nero show! This conversation was amazing! Cheers!

[@imranwahid11]

6 Giro stages, all of them have been super good! Much better than last few years!

[@johnissa8077]

Love the banter it just keeps getting more entertaining.

[@cliveastman6448]

I disagree with you both on your take about the Giro. Every stage so far has been great to watch. It was great to see Jhonatan Narváez battle it out with Pog on the first stage. Also seeing Pog crash after his flat only to go and smash the win. Good to see B O'Connor try and stick with him and limit his loss ultimately blow. Kudus to him for try. G didnt help and was wheel sucking. It may have helped the both. Confidis got their first win of the year.

[@gregspeakie4635]

Agreed, Giro has been banger after banger so far and it hasn't even reached the mountains for real yet. It may still be a Pogi dominantion but I could see a few of the mountain goats giving him a crack if UAE are constantly isolated, they dont seem to have the depth that they have had at previous races

[@janeichler5810]

I second that..I do not understand boys here, absolutely loving every minute of this Giro,every expectation and script is ripped apart by..the Giro factor :) amazing to watch

[@cmathews1]

Enjoyed this episode, nice one guys. The chat on gravel nutrition interested me. You seemed to quickly dismiss the idea of the hydration pack in favour of 3 bottles. I'm a huge fan of a 2L hydration pack for gravel racing for a few reasons: - First & foremost: your bottles will get covered in sh!t. It's so much nicer to be drinking out of a valve that is not covered in mud. - Reduces the need to reach down and be one handed when everything is vibrating. - Turns out is also more aero. There is no discomfort from modern hydropacks. The USWE one's fit like a glove and are awesome. So it's hydration pack for me with a reserve bottle just in case for something of that duration.

[@BombayBoywhoPedals]

God damn i love this podcast... i love it when they both disagree on something but talk it out like gentlemen...

[@momahe]

There is the one bike to rule them all though. I build up a S Works Crux 2023 Size 58, with the new Sram Force, FD, RD, Sram Rival Shifters (smaller), Red Crank, Cassette and Chain. Custom Build 35mm wheels with DT Swiss 240 hubs, 24mm internal and 30 external, which I run with Pirelli Gravel Tires 40mm and now 32mm Conti 5000 both tubeless. I own a BMC Team Machine 2020 also, with similar Specs just deeper and way more expensive wheels. I build up the Crux as a winter bike (gravel and road) and now a rainy day bike with the Contis during summer. I ended up riding it everyday. It is by now mean slower than the BMC Team Machine, wich made me wonder if the Team Machine just sucks or if the Crux is just incredible. Cornering / Handling is insane. Both setups weight around 7,4kg - 7,6 depending on the tire. It climbs better, it descends better, it is similar on the flats. The only bike I have ridden that was similar was the 2018 I believe Tarmac SL6 rim break. I tried not to become a specialized fanboy but it is almost impossible if you have ridden one tbh. The SEKA ist very promising. The pricing on both the SEKA and the Tavelo is just little bit too high compared to brands with shop support in Europe.

[@KikouLOL6702]

Same situation here ! I have a tarmac sl6 rim brake Sagan edition for Races and sunny days. And I build myself a trek Crockett as a winter road bike/gravel build with gx axs eagle cassette and derailleur 10-50 46 at the front. SRAM rival crank + powermeter, 9velo gravel wheels (32mm external, 45mm deep) , sram rival shifter and brakes (smaller hoods). I run 32mm conti gp for road and specialized 42mm pathfinders for gravel. I think I have 95% of the performance of a modern road bike and 98% of the performance of a high end gravel for a 3500€ build. Yes my frame is aluminium, my seat post, stem and handlebars are some cheap whatever. My bike is 9kg with powermeter, disc brakes, electronic shifting and perfectly optimized tire and wheel combo. If money was no object I would get the same kind of setup on a crux sworks frameset

[@markc3456]

Actually, the "one bike" people I know have been doing high-performance cycling for a long time and scaled back on the number of bikes they own. When we were on 25mm road tires, the geomety differences between road and gravel were bigger than they are now when 32mm is a standard road tire.

[@rexringschott]

That was a funny chat. Thanks fellas

[@claytonwells8614]

As a bike shop owner and having multiple bikes of myself .i reckon the perfect combo is gravel bike for training and general riding and a areo bike for group riding/ racing .i run a trek checkpoint and a giant propel. Cheers cluster

[@skibmbp]

You need a ctit bike, climbing bike, gravel bike, monster gravel bike, TT bike, mtb trail, mtb race, hardtail, fat bike, fixi, and one or two retro builds. After that you will be close to having most of what you need.

[@suhdud4646]

The podcast has lowkey become part of my Thursday morning breakfast routine. 👍🏼

[@albertopoco]

I Bought a Specialized Crux, on gravel mode 8kgs... on road mode 7,5kgs. And with GRX Di2 48/31 and 10-42t... I have a bike for gravel, and for road rides more than 300kms, because the fit, and confort. I have another road bike an 1st gen Specialized Allez Sprint with 81mm tubular wheels... So i have a fast road bike for less than 300kms , and the Crux is for the very long rides like 500kms ...

[@kbless711]

Gravel is where it’s at Jesse!!

[@ColinSmith2001]

Jesse has got me convinced one bike can't do it all! Now instead of that new do it all road bike he's been talking about speccing up he'll have to go for at least 5 separate ones? New crit, aero, climbing, sportive and winter bikes? ;-) Seriously though, it's surely clear that the level of compromise involved depends on the range of uses you have in mind for your own riding. If you have "competitive crit racing" and "multiday gravel epics" on your calendar then 1 bike is not going to do all well, but if it's the clubride-sportive-endurance-gravel-light bikepacking use space, well in that case the compromises are suddenly a lot less severe. Scott Addict gravel with 2x chainset (y)

[@Chris-ho4ki]

I have an S-Works Roubaix. I built an Elves Eglath pro with Ultegra mechanical. Awesome bike. Roubaix currently collects dust

[@ynie1]

Personally, I am planning on picking up the G Major as my next gravel build (yes, gravel) with the CRW wheels on a 2x Force Xplr. Within Colorado, it's not the easiest to get a frame in the first place, you pretty much have to order a frame regardless as most bike shops only want to sell the complete bike. The other option I was considering was the ENVE Mog, which goes for $5,500 here. Yes, I'd like to have bike shop support, but at that price, I could buy 2 frames and have enough money leftover for extra tires.

[@Heliosmaster]

I completely agree with Chris (and partly with Jesse). My very first bike was (and still is my main bike) a Canyon Grail AL from 2021 (~1600€ new).. so not the double decker but what would now be called an allround bike, in aluminium. I have 40mm wide tyres, which I think is the perfect tyre wide for road/light gravel (strade bianche style), GRX600 with a 30/46T + 11/34T which helps me on tougher climbs and still i can ride up to 45kph which is sufficient for my level. It was a gravel bike before the gravel bikes went all-in on 'tough gravel' and now I see endurance bikes are going the full circle towards it. I'm here enjoying my bike. I understand Jesse's point that isn't the bike to do it *ALL*, but it's a bike that can do damn near 95%. In order for you to enjoy the 5% you need to put a lot of work on you. Before what Jesse is saying about getting a bike at least competitive, you need to be yourself at least competitive. So I think that the bike Chris is suggesting is totally fine until you can do >4w/kg for an hour.

[@maturtlelaza]

The one bike to rule them all is sometimes for economic purposes as well. I have a 2021 kona sutra LTD that I bought used for $1800 (CAD). I got it because I wanted to do some bike touring trips but ended up getting into road riding as well. I built a second wheelset for road for ~$500. This spring I slammed the stem, put 38 cm handlebars and a set of 32mm road tires and I can keep up with my friends on road bikes. I understand that its probably shit for actual racing but I'm a PhD student that gets paid $22,000/ yr, this is my one good bike for now.

[@KevinMatassa]

The 1 bike answer is from mid-level gravel to mid-level road. Therefore real crits are out obviously, as are multi-day bike packing as the requirements are too high. But everything in between can work with the 1 bike. I don't think you have to look very hard to find people in this category.

[@laillosidgar]

Agreed! It's the people who doing broad type cycling, but not too much, or not race oriented. Cycling in many road condition, more comfort than road bike, and relatively quicker than mountain bikes.

[@kenvietzke4408]

I use a high end gravel bike as my CX bike, gravel and road. Have a set of road wheels and a set of gravel wheels that can also fit MTN bike tires. Works well.

[@KevinMatassa]

@@kenvietzke4408 Ditto. I think the issue is that these guys race and 1 bike just doesn't cut it to be truly competitive. No argument. 1 bike range doesn't include racing crits for the win (though you could certainly ride a crit with one.)

[@MichaelBoogerd]

@@KevinMatassa aside from the endurance/gravel bike becoming popular for recreational riding (usurping casual MTB riders); the real specificity has been that pure-racing bikes are now either too expensive to be out-of-reach of the casual cyclist, or too specific to be really the every-day machine unless you're really into racing.. the geometry is too aggressive, the componentry too proprietary/bespoke to actually be off-the-shelf at the local shop or closest Decathlon.

[@cjohnson3836]

​@@KevinMatassaneither of these 2 are paying their mortgage on race purses so their "racing" is as relevant to the world as my "racing". That is to say, completely fucking irrelevant. The only people who NEED a specialized bike are the people who never have to buy their bikes. For the 99.999% rest of us, the do-it-all bike is the logical answer. I can take my gravel bike to "race" mid south and then change wheels to do road rides the next week.

[@ShawnIsBatman]

For me, I have been willing to experiment with components from China such saddles, bars, and potentially wheels, however, when I am going to invest in something major like a frame or an entire groupset, I would need to have local (in-country) warranty and in-country support.

[@petersouthernboy6327]

I went to Panda Express, and the price points are too close for comfort to the major establishment brands on discount websites. Pass.

[@glennoc8585]

That's the crux of it. I've had good luck with all but one set of wheels ex china

[@n.eilo_rides]

I'm running an Elves frame with Winspace wheels but stick to Shimano for drive train. The Chinese drivetrains would have to go a lit further before I put money down.

awesome

[@ziaboulder1]

Go get it, Chris!

[@sds1605]

Get Federico on the show!!!

[@livingwithfshd]

please just talk AUD! as a none aussie it’s confusing when you chopping and changing when comparing, just now you AUD and next you USD i don’t know your exchange rate difference just pick one please

[@Schubskii]

More gravel tire discussion please

[@darrenleyds1575]

In regards to the men's pro racing - I'll say it - it's because deep down we all feel like they're doping out in the open again. It's unfair to the riders but as they say "fool me once, shame on me.. fool me twice. I see a guy smash off the front and make the rest of them look like they're not even pedaling and the PTSD kicks in..

[@justsomedude7556]

I am in the same spot Chris. I have a CheckPoint SLR frame and built it up and running 42mm tires, I am looking at selling my Domane SLR and Emonda. I have just felt a comfort level on this one bike that I don't need the others. Now I just having a hard time posting the up for sale, lol. My checkpoint is a 1x running sram xplr group. Works perfect for my needs

[@BikesKomsCRO]

Lmao why would you buy all 3.. One of them is a gravel bike, one is a all road, and the last one is a road bike. What the hell. Too much money 😅

[@justsomedude7556]

@BikesKomsCRO I got them at different times, the Emonda is from 2016, the Domane was a deal too good to pass up, and the Checkpoint I built up recently for some bike travel and was a better setup than using the Domane.

[@BreakawayB]

Good chat, boyzzz

[@AndrewisTri-tn1uo]

Get someone to do an ftp test, and find a significant difference between clipless, and flats and joggers. Never been shown, or it's so small it can't be measured. So yes you're better off arguing about which chain wax to use or which inner tube to use, they have more of an impact than your shoe.

[@debasishnayak8610]

31:45 this has been an amazing giro d'italia!

[@jujubae_]

Bike frames, wheels and components have been manufactured in China for many years now, at large scale, for mainstream international brands. Over time, the quality and capabilities of their manufacturing has improved further and further to accommodate the evolving requirements of brands and their consumers. The high quality production already exists. But the shift comes when Chinese brands are willing to back themselves when it comes to funding its own marketing, R&D, and sales distribution to compete against more established international brands. This means the costs of running a business increases, which in turn, also impacts the price that the consumer pays for the products. I think the interest in new options started to pick up when established brands like Zipp and Enve started to charge $6000+ for their wheels, while reducing their own production costs by outsourcing their manufacturing and changing to hookless rims, showing that they care more about profits than cutting edge innovation. Brands like Yoeleo, Farsports and Winspace started attracting attention because they offered high quality wheels that were less than half the price of Enve and Zipp. As frame manufacturers also venture into the $10,000 frameset territory, it's starting to attract attention for alternative brand options coming from China.

[@sm19]

Chris, get a bento box for the sugar flask. Orucase makes one with magnetic closures which make it really easy to grab things quickly.

[@Carftymk]

something interesting not mentioned for the magene groupset: the same shifters are used for rim brake cables and hydraulic

[@firasmaruf5045]

Noob question: Is that a good thing or a bad thing? If I had to guess, seems like a bad thing, but I'm just guessing...Am I right?

[@Carftymk]

@@firasmaruf5045 if done right, excellent. but i'm skeptical it wouldn't leak

[@rogercrawford1839]

Somebody sponsor Jesse with a gravel bike so he can get onto the trails and enjoy life a bit more. Centennial Park circuits are good for disciplined training sessions but one can get into a rut and loose track of what else is happening in cycling, i.e gravel events. Chris has a point about logistics though, however traveling vast distances in Australia is just normal practice and travel to Western Australia is just a mere 5 hour flight…

[@604idan]

The guy has a bloody s works diverge and uses it to toodle around the bike paths 💥🔫

[@donbarnard82]

I think one of the reasons for gravels popularity for roadies is to simply be able to ride somewhere new. Eventually your local roads can get kind of boring, but adding gravel as an option and you get some new places to ride. -Depends on where you live whether that's really an option though. But I think Jesse rides for racing rather than for scenery.

[@hellodisdat]

Doesn't the Aspero have a mount on the top tube just behind the stem that could be used for a third bottle?

[@burnigene1279]

Been watching Joe wander around the show n thought some of them bikes looked absolutely stunning

[@markc3456]

I for one am looking forward to hearing about how your tire choice worked out!

[@ExplorinDoranRBrown]

Wow, I was impressed that Jesse pulled out that running analogy. He definitely knows his ultra cushioned race shoes. Hoka for the win! 🎉

[@walshman70]

I seem to recall a study that went into cycling shoes stiffness and found that there was literally no difference in power transfer... But, there was a difference that stiffness made in comfort/feel.

[@JordanHammond7]

Get a Tailfin top bar bag for the gravel race. You can stuff the sugar flask in you back pocket and feed easily on gravel, mainly on the slight uphill gradients.

[@htonmusic]

in gravel/mtb, some of the pedals have the wider flatform around the central clip (see deore xt pedals). this provides the area of purchase to have less of the pressure concentrated to the cleat. have this wider flatform also gives more control in cornerning as you can push your weight into your feet more.

[@flodahm8014]

Home made gel recipe - any video of you guys that breaks down easy/best way to prep these in the kitchen at home?

[@Adanteh]

I could get a secondhand bike, with a western frame that is a season old for about the same price as some these frames. Sure I won't be riding the top tier stuff, but a 2024 Defy model for 2500 euro or so is way more interesting for me, than buying a new groupset (Which are extremely expensive now), new bike, wheels, etc. At this point I would just never buy anything new in the bike industry. Ride your 5k bike for a week and suddenly its worth only 3k.

[@nineunauk]

Gotta make a cargo Nero suit!!

[@trackar134]

The seka looks amazing. Will pick one up. Have owned 6 Chinese frames since 2020. At $1800-2000 the frame is comparable to a “western” frame that cost $4500-5500. If you don’t want an “s-works” level frame you can get another frame for ~$1000-1200 that is comparable to a $3000-3500 “western” frame.

[@n.eilo_rides]

💯

[@haydenjames1391]

Re Seven Gravel Race; you are allowed to get hand up bottles off the side of the feed zones, if your stopping to fill up bottles your gonna get left behind, no one in the first-third groups will be stopping, also not starting with a pack would be very handy to go without lugging an extra 2.5kg up the first few selection climbs

[@lewisfilms]

When I go to panda podium website there is very little for sale. Whats going on? No complete bikes for example….?

[@echtogammut]

The shoe stiffness question is interesting. Some MTB shoes have zones in the shoe with deflection, so they are more walkable, however some are basically the same as the road shoe, just with rubber bits for traction. As a rough rule of thumb, if it is an XC or Cross shoe, it just a road shoe with different cleat mounts and nubs for traction. If it is a MTB shoe is has some flex for walking.

[@stihldavebergen3469]

I still have an '07 Trek TCT5000, a classic Chinese frame thay has held up amazingly well.

[@pano360]

Pogi for the double, make that the Triple ⛽🔥🥂😁

[@christopherbaird4952]

IMO Bont are uncomfortably stiff. I have them because, even though they're too narrow, they're wider (in their Double Wide sizing) than anything else I can find. Nobody even makes a flat pedal wide enough. The foot is designed to transmit force, but it needs to transmit through the whole ball of the foot.

[@glennoc8585]

My main concern is still warranty and proprietary forks that may or may not be available in a few years. You can pickup brand name bikes for $3500 to $5000 aud for say s Merida or giant.

[@yuva]

Chris can consider Cargo Bibs for fuel storage during a gravel race. Stick a sugar tube on your dominant leg pocket that can be flipped open one-handed.

[@stuarthandley8267]

Bought a set of 50mm carbon wheels 6 years ago for £309 from Ali express, had 3 spokes (nipples) go and changed the front wheel bearings in that time. What's not to like, the wheels have no decals so not sure what mould they came out of, they are just fantastic to ride.

[@Popcorn_Rider]

Increase in competition between bike brands and more options for consumers. Thats all we want. Look at the car market - 5 different SUVs for each manufacturer. Give me the choice!

[@Hou5eSounds]

Bonts: Stiffer in torsion. Get specialized innersoles and it removes the vibration and buzz from the shoes. Game changer

[@mohammadtaufek5529]

My first bike in 2020 was China made aero bike brand name Alcott Zagato It was an ok bike…. weight was 8.1kg with Shimano Ultegra 11 speed, China made wheelset. Price about $ 740 usd.

[@becyk_du_quebec]

Jesse is right about customizing parts though (so there's a big direct to consumer market for that), almost everybody I know that bought a new bike recently have had to change stem/handlebar/saddle in the first few weeks of having the new bike. Heck even wheels are usually the things people upgrade out of too. At this point why not just spec a frame with the parts you want in the first place? Even canyon don't do that (if you prefer a 170mm crankset with a 90mm stem on a large frame, good luck having that stock from any brand).

[@digerati808]

Jesse is spot on regarding the 3 waves of Chinese carbon. I think his prediction on the acceptable price points of Chinese carbon rims and frames is MOSTLY accurate though. The two factors that I think need to be considered are: 1. Westerners tend to value the brand of the frame over the brand of the wheel. This means that it's an easier decision to purchase a Chinese branded wheelset than it is a Chinese branded frame. 2. Once you start getting up around $2k for a frame, cost becomes less of an issue, meaning that if you're going to be spending that much on a frame, dropping another $2k on a Western brand isn't that much more of a jump. I think at this this point in time, high-end Chinese branded frames are going to have to come in at "less than half" of the price to a comparable Western brand.

[@Bricolo06]

Very nice bike ! I have a wilier Jena with the same gear combination and group set as the photo. I use that bike for everything, bike packing, group rides, solo rides, hill climbs. I even did the transcontinental last year with it. I don’t ever plan on crit racing, I am just not strong enough and there are basically no races where I live anyway. I think as a fitness and travel bike it’s ideal. It’s been three year and the only specialist bike I bought since then is a Brompton 😅. (Well to be fair I am in the process of building a Yoeleo R12 but not intended to be my main bike ).

[@Bricolo06]

I am 35yo and live in Hong Kong where road are absolute trash. And the competition I am looking at and I am intrested in are the ultra ones. I think do it all bikes are the most competitive for that sort of events where the goal is to be able to sit as long as you can on the saddle for days.

[@thenoclue90]

23:48 He tale about this on a video with Bike Sauce. Worth a listen!

[@cliveastman6448]

The new Onirii aero bike looks great. However, the fornt end looks more like a Look 795 blade aerolight than the S5

[@adammckinney6850]

I would love to hear about your gravel tires😅

[@MateusMartinss]

Just want to trow a question here on the "One bikt to rule them all" subject. If you are racing C/D grade crit, avg speed 30 to 33 km/h for 30min, do you really need an aero road bike?

[@EmpoweredEntrepreneur]

Just took delivery of two "Chinese" frames (road and mtb). Out of the box they are incredible. Pending a few more parts en route, these may be the best bikes I ever built and ride. Waiting on Elite Wheels for the roadie and front inverted suspension for the mtb. It's at least worth the test and half the price. Heck even a third to the comparable roadie and that includes SRAM Rival set.

[@sm19]

I’m here for the gravel chat, sorry Jesse.

[@the_derpler]

The 1 bike to rule them all is perfect here in the Bay Area. Most of my rides are a 50/50 mix of road riding and gravel in the Marin headlands.

[@jeffreypeters1902]

I've got pics from Unbound 2020 or so of how the Trek boys did their hydration- Keil stopped by our tent after running like a marathon after his wheel collapsed- he had a pocket stitched into the inside of this skinsuit for a bladder- said one of the soigniers did it, but it looked pretty pro, so I have a feeling the clothing sponsor did it, but didn't want to get anyone in trouble for equipment unavailable to the public. Not sure if that rule applied to clothing or just bikes...

[@JFomo]

I've always liked Seka ever since it was featured on Cam Nicolls channel. The Seka is nothing like the Factor, you can compare both bikes on Bikotic and they are different. A Seka is probably the only china bike I would consider over all the other brands like Winspace, Elves, Yoleo and so on. Jessie should definitely build up a Seka over that other random brand.

[@theyorkshirewheeler]

The SEKA frame looks pretty juicy

[@davidnicholson6680]

I'm sure these top end Chinese brand frames are great, but if you do the math on a complete build of retail-priced components with a higher end Chinese frame, the savings you got from the lesss expensive frame evaporates and the total price gets very close to the price of an LBS-bought Western brand complete bike. This is especially true when comparing to a brand like Giant where the complete bike prices are already pretty good. That's where this whole idea falls apart. I'd also pay a sizable npremium for LBS support and to keep a bike shop open in my area.

[@KikouLOL6702]

For sure! The more service they offer, the more testing, if they have in country supports l, their prices will reflect that and become the same as other brands

[@lazeroth89]

What murmurings are you talking about Pogi? Is it just in australia? Don't see that discourse in europe....

[@discbrakefan]

The reason Bont soles are stiffer (especially in the Vaypor S) is because the sole comes up at the sides like a boat. It’s not just a flat piece of carbon like most shoes. So it works like a beam rather than a plate.

[@82vitt]

I have had a pair of Vaypor S and the soles flexed a tiny bit when I pushed with my hands at both ends, which doesn't happen with my S-Works Ares, Mavic Cosmic III and Gaerne GSTL. The soles on those are rock hard.

[@justinkase8716]

Carbon bath tube design

[@Average_cycling]

Please more gravel, Chris.

[@chriss6971]

The frames look wild and different compared to western companies products. I'd spend on a Chinese brand, we get most stuff from there anyway.

[@richardhutchings1980]

Love the passionate disagreements between the two of you. WWF style combat

[@StephanieLuff]

31:45 Jesse has dad brain 😂

[@robbchastain3036]

Thanks, Jesse, for explaining the three waves of China's arrival in the marketplace and certainly their builds of low-cost and discount-store bikes counts for a lot as first-wave emergence? And before China there was Taiwan and Japan as production heavyweights with Schwinn and Raleigh shifting much or most of their production there in the 1970s. And then the newer brands followed suit in the '80s. And now it seems most of everything is manufactured in China and little wonder as top-tier brands shifted their work there over recent decades, with a nod to the nation's represented by the brands, such as high-end fashion bags made in China and sent to Europe for placement of handles and a European nation gets to say it was made there and customers figure, cool, worth the price for local artisans. But cyclists already know that about the big brands, so these new brands are likely to find acceptance, it would seem, and I recently upgraded for a family member a '90s Pacific 26" mountain bike was a small Made in China sticker on the frame. And the frame is fantastic, plated with playful geometry and perhaps a copy of an earlier frame?

[@Gufolicious]

Definitely team jessy!!! #nogravel