Why Tolkien Hated the Roman Empire

[@InkandFantasy]

According to the script I say “itself” 10 times!!

[@bas-tn3um]

according the completely made up argument you made.

[@Hydra-dr8hd]

All Catholics hate the Roman Empire so it's not surprising that Tolkien hated the Roman Empire The Roman Empire used to persecute Catholics (= Christians) and throw them in arenas with wild animals

[@overlord5068]

He was a Catholic and all Catholics of all times were and always will be against the polytheist Roman empire

[@apollomars1678]

nope minas thirid is not based on Konstantinopel, but more likely Adrianopel, while Osgiliath is often compared with Konstantinopel in the narrative, that wants to make the evil races and orcs to Muslims. This is bullshit. It is more about northern western european society, explicit the UK. Numenor didnt slowly widdled and died out, it sink into the ocean, like atlantis. It is more an analogy about good vs bad colonialism and ergo the british empire. Anarion and Isildur were not brothers, at best you could compare arnor and gondor to the western and eastern roman empire. the civilwar didnt happend over the minority of the king, but by the pro-elven or pro-men views in numenor with the faithfull being surrounded by a princess, while the true king tried to attack the land to the west and failed. It is more an analogy to the fight in Islam after the death of Mohamed between Abū Bakr and Fātima, the later mother of Ali. the dunedain are racial superiour to their colonial subjects, because of their age (200-600) to men (60), but this blood is slowly lost in gondor by the gondorians, who are by "good" colonialisation cultural adapted to numenorian culture without being numenorian, because they die to early to record the knowledge of the numenorians. This desiree and the thinning of the numenorian blood over time is one of the main reasons of the slow downfall of gondor, even portrayed in the movies. Haradrim using elephants is not an analogy to carthago..... It is more probably about india than carthago and maybe they are even about sometime else, like british people handling the mystical elephants from stories only known even for the rohirim on the battlefield. the battle on the hornburg is not a fancy comparison to a fight by some Horatius, who defended Rome from the etruscians, ffs. Tolkien didnt compared the HORN-BURG with the latin genus horatius, who broke down a BRIDGE to defend early rome. It is mor elikely, that Tolkien hated Rome, because they invaded britannia and made it to a colony and brought a believe into britannia with a sole power, that corrupted everyone, who touched it and twisted his natural british views to a practical, exploiting and hateful view to every naturalistic god, called christianity....

[@bas-tn3um]

nope let me ass pull while giving no sources. heeeee hawwww appolo homosexual. @@apollomars1678

[@leonemaledetto1500]

I imagined as much. He loved Celtic myth, and the Romans were a large reason for their downfall. Also the imperialism of Rome must have seemed to ol'JRR like a force for homogeneity in the world, where he so loved the differences of peoples that inhabit it.

[@couchpotatoe91]

Exactly. Middle-Earth is in many parts united, but not homogenized. The Roman Empire on the other hand, while adopting some Greek customs earlier in its republic, mostly sought to destroy anything that was different and foreign and establish Roman superiority. Examples include the absolute annihilation of Carthage and anything related to their culture (afaik we don't know of a single Carthaginian book or author) and the assimilation of Celts into "civilized" people. Ironically though, Tolkien seems to have been unaware or ignored the fact that early Christians did the same thing, often times even worse in that they tolerated no other religion while Romans did accept foreign worship as long as you accepted the emperor as your half-deity. Given his devout catholic belief, it might be that it just never occured to him that the spread of Christianity had such a sharp cultural impact. Afair it was the Christians who basically hunted down Celtic and Nordic druids that transferred oral stories of their gods, not the Romans who relied heavily on Celtic auxilia and Gaul as a buffer province and had no problem with polytheism as long as they were included.

[@petrospetromixos6962]

@@couchpotatoe91 werent Carthagenians just barbarians, how could they have authors or books?

[@goofygrandlouis6296]

Sooo... Do you think he would be on team Galadriel rebooted ? 😅😅

[@couchpotatoe91]

@@petrospetromixos6962 Carthaginians were seafarers and traders that explored along the West African coast long before Romans did (look up the explorer Hanno from the 5th century BC). Romans actually seized a stranded Punic vessel in the 1st Punic War in the 3rd century BC and replicated it because it was just a superior ship design to theirs. Carthaginians were originally a trading colony from Phoenicia which is in nowaday Israel, but Phoenicia got eventually conquered by the Persians leaving the colony of Carthage an independent new nation. They were by no means "barbarians", the city of Carthage at one point in history was one of if not the biggest city in the mediterranean. The Phoenicians also perfected the art of translucent glass blowing. They were one of the biggest players in the Mediterranean before the Roman rise alongside the Greeks. But they were traders and no conquerors, so while they controlled land that was profitable, they didn't have a concept of Imperialism as the Romans did. They also had an oligarchy and a senate much like Romans did btw, but without dictators (ancient term) in times of crisis.

[@couchpotatoe91]

@@goofygrandlouis6296 Tolkien likely already would've problems with the action and war focus of the LotR films. I know his son Christopher did. If he wasn't already dead, I'm sure he'd wish to be after seeing the Rings of Power.

[@LLPTV]

Even Tolkien thought about Roman empire at least every week.

[@attemptedunkindness3632]

It's a perennial problem that all alpha males are required to at least think about the Roman Empire at least once every 160 hours. Ideally you are looking for numbers like 12-24 hours but Tolkien is forgiven for he is an aged G who left a good chunk of his testosterone simply surviving outrageous WW1 battles.

[@paulmayson3129]

What if you think about it 24/24, 7/7???@@attemptedunkindness3632

[@maximusd26]

if it's not every day, how would you face your ancestors ?

[@isaackellogg3493]

@@maximusd26with the right (dexter) side of my visage. They’d expect nothing less.

[@VVabsa]

@@attemptedunkindness3632 Question, does one think about the entire history of the Romans from 753BC - 480 AD (1453 AD if you count the Eastern Roman/Byzantine empire) or the Empire part specifically?

[@roosterman8601]

6:00 no one commenting on the fact that one of the greatest authors of all time known for his posh language just said "grr" in a letter to his son unironically

[@InkandFantasy]

It took me a solid 10 minutes to decide if I wanted to say that as well while reading it hahaha

[@tiagomoraes1510]

Damn thats cringe

[@LordVader1094]

it's adorable tbh :)

[@grandmasteryoda6717]

virgin: Damn thats cringe chad: it's adorable tbh :)

[@tiph3802]

​@grandmasteryoda6717 acting like virginity is shameful is cringe.

[@Tom-sd9jb]

"I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend." I remember reading somewhere the Faramir was Tolkien's cheeky self insert.

[@tau-5794]

Faramir and Frodo were both (sort of) self inserts. Faramir for being based on himself in general, and Frodo for his experiences in WW1, as an officer and Sam standing in for the common soldier he was expected to lead.

[@Windows7enjoyer]

Thats Beren.

[@Elyseon]

Considering that Beren is even mentioned on his gravestone, definitely.

[@calonarang7378]

The best words I've heard so far!

[@tau-5794]

@@Windows7enjoyer Beren was the self insert, but Faramir and Frodo were both more directly inspired by his own personality.

[@Procopius464]

Tolkien also said that Aragorn becoming king of the united realms was similar to what might have happened if an emperor had inherited the Byzantine Empire and recovered the ruined territories of the western Roman Empire. Edit: Since this comment is getting a lot of views I want to make a correction. Actually what Tolkien said was that the reunited realm was more like the Holy Roman Empire. He did not say it was like the Western Roman and Byzantine Roman empires coming together again, although he did compare Godor to the Byzantine Empire.

[@Phavahg]

So, Justinian then? But then, Justinian was certainly not Roman (Numenorean) by birth, although he apparently grew up speaking Latin (Westron).

[@Procopius464]

@@Phavahg It's not that he's supposed to be Justinian or any actual historical figure. Rather it's a somewhat analogous situation. It's an example of history rhyming, but not directly repeating (although this is fake history). Tolkien didn't use symbolism or allegory (which he hated), but he did take inspiration from real history, and of course IRL history does rhyme and to some extent repeat. There is no cryptic hidden meaning behind any of the characters. In one of his letters he mentioned how Gondor was similar to the Byzantine Empire, and that the unified kingdom was similar to the Roman empire reuniting. In another letter he said the Numenorians would have resembled Egyptians, although this had more to do with their architecture and burial customs than their physical appearance. The Middle Earth is supposed to be an ancient mythological age, like the Greek heroic period which all their epics are set in. The Romans, Celts, etc., are all successor populations that come after or during the 4th age. It also fits somewhat with existing systems of mythology like Germanic, Greek, and Celtic. A lot was borrowed from Celtic, in fact.

[@callnight1441]

​@Phavahg you need to be careful how you phrase certain things. Justinian, despite being born illyrian or thracian, would have considered himself just as roman as any itallic at the time

[@khorneflakes2175]

@@callnight1441 I was about to comment this, I can't recall Justinian not being considered Roman, by himself or another.

[@carlosaugustodinizgarcia3526]

Justinian was roman and spoke latin.He was just not from Italy. And neither were Constantine,Septimus Severus,Philp the Arab,Heliogabalus ,Caracalla and Diocletian.

[@JackovdaBoro]

"As I have said, I am a nationalist; England is good enough for me. I would defend England against the whole European continent. With even greater joy would I defend England against the whole British Empire." G.K. Chesterton

[@derfelcadarn8230]

Yes, absolutely, there are some fascinating parallels to be made between Tolkien & Chesterton. Well, I don't know if you've heard of him, good sir, but if you feel particularly close to Tolkien's & Chesterton's worldview, you can always check out the works of Georges Bernanos, some of which have been translated by Cluny Media. In my humble opinion: the greatest French Catholic writer of the 20th century, and one of the greatest French writers, period. A superb novelist & a magnificent polemicist & essayist. A staunch Royalist & Anarchist -- a "White Anarchist", you could say. Royalism à la française, with a special Latin zeal. A bit different from the Anglo-American conservative tradition. But, with Charles Péguy, he is to France what Tolkien & Chesterton are to England: some of the most orthodox & distinguished defenders of their nation's unique vocation before God. Cheers & greetings from France,

[@sandwichninja]

Petty nationalism is cringy and unrealistic. The only nationalism that will save the Western world is racial (as in White). Anglophiles are some of the slowest to accept this due to the emotional attachment they have for their lionized role in the absurd WWII narrative. Imagine thinking that Churchill - who ordered the carpet bombing of 160+ German villages, towns, and cities - was a hero _"fighting tyranny"._

[@ThereIsAlwaysaWay2]

Amen ♥♥♥

[@JoaoVitor-wp9zg]

@@derfelcadarn8230 Man, you look like a very cool person, judging by these authors you are suggesting, cheers!

[@joepetto9488]

If only he meant it.

[@derfelcadarn8230]

Tolkien was a traditional Catholic, a Royalist & a counter-revolutionary ; as such, his main inspiration, like all true counter-revolutionaries, was the Christian Middle Ages. An aristocratic social order with a secretly democratic mentality; a strong, patriarchal monarchy with extensive local liberties: a warrior-nobility that still submited to the spiritual authority of the priestly order; a politically fragmented Europe that thought of itself as a spiritually united continent, headed by the Holy Church, and whose warring polities could put aside their differences when necessary (the Crusades, for example) etc. Medieval Christendom was full of these wonderful paradoxes which Tolkien thought to be the basis of true authority and true freedom. So, of course, it's not surprising that Tolkien hated the Roman Empire, and more generally, the very idea of Empire. Imperialism, true imperialism that is, was completely foreign to the medieval mind. When Tolkien described himself as both an anarchist & a conservative, that is what he meant.

[@Digganob590]

I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of your comment, but I am intrigued by one phrase: "An aristocratic social order with a secretly democratic mentality;" What precisely do you mean by this? I wouldn't think you meant democratic in the same way we mean it today, that being the power is directed by the people, as it is in modern democracies. Do you mean the spirit and will of the people being taken into consideration by government?

[@binbows2258]

@@Digganob590 I think the idea is that the nobility are "chosen" by and serve as the "representatives" of the common people. They hold unquestionable authority, but it is a righteous authority that the people "agreed" to let them have. Essentially, the noble dynasties themselves were "chosen" by the people to lead them.

[@Digganob590]

@@binbows2258 Hey now, let's let the OP speak for himself. By the way, fun fact, every political system is a democracy once you piss the people off enough.

[@robmartin5448]

he wasn't a fan of the nahsis he was not a fan of fascists. In some ways Rome was a very fascist society. That's why Skyrim gives you a mission to join the Empire or the Stormcloacks in Tolkien fashion. Would Tolkien have sided with Empire?

[@drlca6601]

barons and magna carta@@Digganob590

[@plenarchist]

“My political opinions lean more and more to Anarchy (philosophically understood, meaning abolition of control not whiskered men with bombs) … Government is an abstract noun meaning the art and process of governing and it should be an offence to write it with a capital G or so to refer to people. … the most improper job of any man, even saints (who at any rate were at least unwilling to take it on), is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity.” - J.R.R. Tolkien, 1943 letter to his son from The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien (1981)

[@dirtbird7415]

If he wrote that , it is very telling as to why he hated the Roman empire. The Romans , Like the Greeks before them viewed a Political career and service to the state as the highest good an individual could achieve.

[@pyotrbagration2438]

@@dirtbird7415 Hoes mad

[@davidd854]

This fits with the general idea of the ring of power as well I think.

[@zealgaming8161]

@@dirtbird7415 The Romans wanted to get closer to the gods. And in their eyes, the gods where both terrifyingly wrathful and beautifully strong. We know about the pain of chasing power. But as our once great civilization collapse into nihilism, we also now know the pain of weakness.

[@petrapetrakoliou8979]

Government is the product of the evolutionary process of war, it isn't a nicety.

[@MerkhVision]

This is an excellent and thoughtful video full of nuance, which is much appreciated and desperately needed in these increasingly polarized world!

[@TheMoguera]

So it's not that he hates the roman empire, he just doesn't like empires?

[@sindrimyr5351]

Indeed. He hates the idea of empires imposing their culture and language upon other civilizations and thus trying to eradicate the previous peoples customs. He preferes diversity and richness of culture and languages as opposed to one universalized and centrified culture.

[@jaykilbourne1110]

TL,DR; He favors chaos, anarchy, and destructive conflict.@@sindrimyr5351

[@underarmbowlingincidentof1981]

@Hlord-be4xx same thing basically. although cooperation between those culturally diverse people is something he does value. I mean I'd say isolationism is something he warns about in his books.

[@muhammadedwards8425]

​@Hlord-be4xxI don't think so. A massive confederation or other grouping of semi-independent states that have their own culture would probably be something he'd be down with. Like an idealized Russia, or if the EU was a state and also a utopia

[@hebanker3372]

Which is kind of an oxymoron, for if the Romans hadn't embraced Christianity, he wouldn't have been a Christian himself. The concept of imperium is a double edged sword.

[@andreasmuller4172]

To love your country without being blind to its faults is an attitude I wish more people had.

[@Commodore22345]

People don't acknowledge the faults of their nation, not because they don't see them, but because any time you do, the enemies of your nation will politicize it and use such admissions to subvert, weaken and eventually destroy your nation. That is why, for example, the Japanese steadfastly refuse to admit to any wrongdoing in WW2 to this very day. They know they did wrong, but they also know if they admit it, their enemies will use that to help break down their national identity.

[@mrjoe5292]

Why? No country should demand the love of its citizens, nor should we expect anyone to love their country. That sort of sentiment should be earned, any amount of enforcing it completely undermines the nature of it.

[@Commodore22345]

@mrjoe5292 You're conflating country with government. They are not the same thing. One should always love their country, but not necessarily love their government.

[@yseson_]

No hater of nations but a hater of empire, i share these sentiments deeply.

[@thadtuiol1717]

Hope you're not American, the irony would be too great for you to bear

[@audreyharris7643]

​@@thadtuiol1717what's the irony

[@RussianOccupier190]

Nah empires are great without empires we would still be living in the Stone Age

[@danzoom]

​@@RussianOccupier190 isn't true, since the first states could barely be called empires. Indus valley civilization and sumers were independent city-states.

[@RussianOccupier190]

@@danzoom an empire is a nation that seeks to expand its territory mostly through violent means empire does not necessarily mean a huge landmass since empires can come in all sorts of sizes throughout history there have been very small empires like the Egyptian or the Hittite which are very small in comparison to other bigger better known empires like the Roman,Mongol, and British empires.

[@harbl99]

Here's a thing: Karen Fonstad (of _The Atlas of Middle-Earth_ fame) worked out that the distance from Hobbiton to Minas Tirith is about the same as that from Oxford to Constantinople. Make of that what you will.

[@Procopius464]

Sounds about right.

[@tj-co9go]

Known today as Istanbul. Although I always think of this city still as Constantinople, as a historian

[@ArawnOfAnnwn]

@@tj-co9go No, it's Byzantium!

[@magniwalterbutnotwaltermag1479]

No, it's Miklagard! ​@@ArawnOfAnnwn

[@benjaminthefox]

@@tj-co9go Why'd they change it?

[@ddfelix4829]

A couple of thoughts.... Tolkien used the story of Horatius Cocles as the basis for Boromir and Faramir's stand at Osgiliath in the Appendices of TRotK. Horatius was one of the heroes of the Republic, not the Empire. Also, the stories of the rustic and independent people of Haleth in Beleriand reflect the old Roman Republican values of industriousness, family, and ethics in defense of their community. The Dunedain of Arnor lost their kingdom and their reputation, yet never gave up on protecting the Shire. I think Tolkien saw this as the true calling of power and leadership of the powerful and blessed Numenoreans.... and should have been the calling of the Romans as well. The Romans raped and pillaged many lands as the King's faction of the Numenoreans and the Black Numenoreans abused the peoples of Middle-earth. I believe Tolkien's philosophy as setting an example by being true to the truth. This is shown by the Hobbits', Gandalf's, Aragorn's, Faramir's, and Theoden's courteous behavior towards their social inferiors and guests. People will emulate superior traits through exemplary behavior, not through domination. Examples include the Ithilien Rangers' reverence and remembrance of the Valar before their meal and the highly informal behavior yet extremely polite conversations between Theoden and Merry.

[@joepetto9488]

The way the Beorians and Turin along with Androg’s men lived as “ethical outlaws” also harkens back to Romulus and Remus, their grandfather the Outlawed-King Numitor, and the king’s band of loyal retainers turned bandits.

[@bas-tn3um]

ink and history lied for views why are you acting like this is a mystery.

[@juwebles4352]

Ahh yes I'm sure no one revered Horatius cocles the second the government changed

[@bas-tn3um]

yea he was just a hero of rome for 6 centuries. youre a clown go read a history book.@@juwebles4352

[@AverageAlien]

Republic is objectively inferior to Empire/Monarchy in every single way. This is true in the modern day as well. Democracy always fails, by default. Monarchy needs a comeback

[@gurugurumawaru7869]

Tolkien hated imperialism would be a more accurate title

[@haroldcruz8550]

Yes but that does not invite many viewers as much as the title that was used in this video

[@Parasmunt]

He definitely would not be a fan of modernity! He would be aghast at everything. Imperialism continues today in various forms more so than at any point on history. Mainly due to shared economic systems heavily interconnected but with master and servant countries, related media systems, related legal systems, related norms to do with religion.

[@yourhighness6457]

​@@Parasmunthe hated atheism too

[@Erimgard13]

He hates imperialism in general, but we very specifically have him talking about he hates Rome. So the title makes perfect sense for the content.

[@matthewgabbard6415]

And for that reason I say people suck@@haroldcruz8550

[@62cky4powerthirst]

People often forget the curse of empire: you either conquer too much territory and empire dies stretched too thin to protect itself biting off more than it can chew or your empire runs out of room to expand into and collapses from within due to class contradictions.

[@briishperson4555]

"Class contradictions", not to rain on your parade, but that's a load of bollocks

[@sanguiniue]

When a nation becomes trapped by one class of people it dies. The leaders of a nation turns its attention to helping and protecting that class of people. It cant respond correctly to threats as that would damage the ruling class interests. For Rome it was the land owners , India the priests, japan the warriors , china the bureaucrats and currentley for the USA its big company's and wall street @@briishperson4555

[@DarkArtistKaiser]

@@briishperson4555 Happens more times than you think. Either be taken by the rot without or the rot within, or even both. That is always the fate of all empires.

[@62cky4powerthirst]

@@briishperson4555 Oh sorry, silly me: I forgot poor people and slaves just merrily worked and whistled and sang like Keebler Elves and were not at all angry about being poor or slaves. Yup, everyone just got along just fine. Poor people never got angry the rich in their political system usually bought it and rigged the rules against them while using endless wars to distract them. That's why there was never any slave rebellions or worker uprisings. The Romans and the French just are the two biggest examples of people who just loved their monarchs and never went through any civil wars because they all just loved each other so much. Silly me, I must've read the depressing history books instead of the happy ones!

[@briishperson4555]

@@62cky4powerthirst I don't dispute that revolts and rebellions by the working masses happened, i just don't think that they were a main cause in the collapse of the roman empire (or most empires for that matter, sans russia and france), but rather infighting amongst the ruling elite

[@oliversmith9200]

Back in the seventies, I saw a LOTR inspired poster in a Head Shop, in which the orc's armor looked distinctly Roman. Wish I had that old image half a century later to share.

[@dziosdzynes7663]

Not really

[@bryanthomas4907]

Romans bc they were so rigid. Everyone assumed they were all having gay orgies at any given time but their view of it was very hierarchal. Terribly misogynistic, rampant slavery, never really liked the architecture so yeah fuck em

[@mellamanborrego8299]

@@dziosdzynes7663 speak for yourself, ya jrk

[@hypokratesthehypocrite3513]

That’s sick as fuck,

[@NorthernHistory]

The whole LOTR is a critique of centralized, military power bent on imperial conquest. Mordor's legions marching to the beat of one drum. He proposes that free, independent people will overthrow such a regime, and indeed they did, in history too.

[@pedrolmlkzk]

That is one of the themes yes but not the central one

[@Ravi9A]

Usa hasnt fallen yet.

[@LincolnDWard]

@@pedrolmlkzk the central theme is the allure of power, which that critique of empire neatly falls under

[@konstantinosmandalos7596]

@@Ravi9A Neither has Russia or the PRC or all those large burdens to mankind.

[@Ravi9A]

@@konstantinosmandalos7596 USA is orders of magnitude worse.

[@beanzor]

As a roman catholic myself, I grew up reading JRR Tolkien, I have about the same view of the world.

[@tomtaylor5623]

that's what happens when you follow a religion invented by the tunnelers to destroy us. you go against your own.

[@zarquondam]

No one who's read Augustine's CITY OF GOD would find it "paradoxical" that a Roman Catholic would dislike the Roman Empire. The irony, however, is that the Roman Catholic church modeled itself in many ways on the structure of the Roman Empire. A hierarchical structure terminating in a supreme ruler-pontiff; the wearing of robes when most European men had switched to the "barbarian" trousers; the appropriation of terms like "diocese" and "basilica," etc.

[@ProgressIsTheOnlyEvolution]

Exactly!

[@reactiondavant-garde3391]

@JuliaHalecky Yeah the hierarchy of the church was already formed (more or less) before the Empire even legalised christianity under Constantin the Great.

[@andreamarino6010]

The Catholic Church has a Pope since God appointed St.Peter as the head and His vicar on earth. The clothes are just traditional for liturgy, they do not live with them attacched. Nowdays priests use trousers

[@Ravi9A]

Its natural for augustine readers to suffer from cognitive incoherence.

[@victormolinatorres]

Wonderfully written video!! You got precisely to the point and made clear what Toklien had in his head (with wich I could not agree more) Really interesting topic!!

[@bilas85]

This is something that i have noticed in several british works from the half of the 19th century on - parallelisms between the british empire and the romans would surprisingly pop up in the most unexpected places, and be always negative thoward the second. What i find curious is the distance in time between the two, which normally would prevent any comparison. It is though something that any empire would do, building their own narrative using a previous great example as a meter of measure to reaffirm their actual superior greatness, for example the early franks empires are all about that: we are greater, we are better, our claims are more justifiable, and so on. Tolkien was a top-level educated man of his time, when clearly such opinions would be a part of the zeitgeist.

[@GeorgeMasterclass]

The Romans were so cool and the legacy so great that every european power had tried to mimic or play as the new Rome. Napoleon, the Germans, the Brits, the Americans, Russians, Turks.

[@mnk9073]

The British "hated" the Roman Empire because a) the French were quicker to claim it, I mean Napoleon literally handed out Aquilas and crowned himself Caesar b) Britain was essentially a backwater far from civilisations bright light and yet the British took the better part of two millenia to reach the level of sophistication again that was Roman Britain and c) even at the height of it's power _the Empire_ was a sorry network of trade posts and forts compared to the cultural, social and economic hegemony that was the Roman Empire.

[@GeorgeMasterclass]

@@mnk9073 I dont agree, the Brits were quite progressive, and were the heart of the industrial revolution. Moreover they were quite versatile during the middle ages despite being a nation with a small population.

[@GaryJones69420]

​​@@mnk9073sounds like you either a) hate the British or b) dont know much about the British Empire.

[@mnk9073]

@@GeorgeMasterclassNobody is saying they were not industrious or inventive but they always lacked the cultural splendour and the sophistication. Victorian London is described even by patriotic Brits as a sprawling soot covered Moloch, a destitute modern Babylon, utter Bedlam far from the beauty of Rome. Hell, Tolkien himself saw it as that and agreed with Blake on the "dark satanic mills". During the middle ages England played an important role in it's sphere, Scotland, Ireland and France but most of Europe was, in contrast to the geopolitical giants like France, Spain and the HRE, largely indifferent to and unbothered by it.

[@evilsponge6911]

"Rome makes a desert, and calls it peace" -Tacitus

[@derfelcadarn8230]

Absolutely... Rome definitely did a lot of good; it also did a lot of evil, absolutely evil stuff, even. Well, I don't know where you stand politically, good stranger, but from a right-wing perspective (mine), it boggles the mind that so many people on the Right these days so readily worship the Roman Empire... At the peak of its power & influence, Rome was nothing more than a plutocracy which spent its time destroying indigenous European cultures & persecuting Christian souls... Such a great example for the political & spiritual regeneration of the decadent West...

[@fabrizio.guidi64]

"U.S.A. makes a desert, and calls it peace"

[@jeffersoncruz2898]

ROMA CRIOU UMA CIVILIZAÇÃO!

[@falsesatsuma]

@@fabrizio.guidi64 The Eagle still flys over Parthia, it has yet to be brought to heel.

[@Aegius]

Japan, Germany and South Korea didn’t become deserts

[@xanderunderwoods3363]

Your channel is criminally underrated. As an author myself, I absolutely love this video.

[@InkandFantasy]

Thank you very much!!!!

[@gergelybakos2159]

Thank you for this balanced presentation of the surprisingly fresh and healthy way of Tokien's thinking. May more people think like this!

[@MisterPeckingOrder]

Tolkien had the most based takes on Rome ever. Not surprised.

[@CedarloreForge]

Brother you are without a doubt the best Tolkien scholar on KZbin consistently creating honest and academic videos that I think the Professor himself would appreciate. Thanks for the hard work! 🙏

[@InkandFantasy]

Thank you so much, it means the world! Have a wonderful day!!!

[@Brubarov]

I understand him a lot better thanks to you, but also because I totally share his perspective. Especially in our crazy world.

[@william_santiago]

I'm totally perplexed why Tolkien hating Rome has ANYTHING to do with the Roman Catholic church. Sharing a name doesn't share a culture. New Zealanders are sometimes called "Kiwis", though they don't share any culture with the bird. Rome persecuted the Catholics for 300 years.

[@InkandFantasy]

It was mentioned because the Empire and the Church have a very intertwined history with the Pope crowing an Emperor of the Romans and claiming jurisdiction over the west through the “edict” of Constantine. It was not mentioned as a serious consideration but rather as something people may connect because of the aforementioned reasons.

[@Adventeuan]

And then the empire became nicenean. Which broke into latin and greek creeds which evolved to the catholic and orthodox church.

[@Somethingelse345]

Tolkien would hate the globalism of today

[@theoriginalkyttyn7724]

Yes, he would have.

[@Wartoz]

And Trump

[@V.B.Squire]

​@@WartozTrump is the opposite to globalism and Tolkien would see through CNN propaganda,

[@V.B.Squire]

​@@WartozTrump is the opposite to globalism and Tolkien would see through CNN propaganda,

[@hyacinthlynch843]

@@Wartoz Why? Trump is a nationalist just like Tolkien.

[@silverchairsg]

Tolkien: I don't like the Roman Empire Time Traveller: Professor, I brought you this game called Rome Total War. Have a go at it. Why not let your buddy Jack play it too? 3 hours later Tolkien: And as Frodo slashed the back of the last of the retreating orcs with Sting, he beckoned to the Men-at-arms of Gondor behind him and bellowed: "The enemy army flees! Pursue them! Drive them from the battlefield!" CS Lewis: The Witch's Minotaur general clove Mr Tumnus's head from his shoulders with one mighty blow. All around him, Peter Pevensie and the rest of the Narnian army were fleeing. He raised his head and let out a roar that echoed above the din of the battlefield: "The enemy warlord is running like a frightened goat. Chase him! Goats make good eating!"

[@jacobzanardi1930]

Understanding that he was a devout Catholic makes this not paradoxical at all. The morality of the Roman Empire was entirely opposite of Christian morality.

[@RussianOccupier190]

How so? Because it seemed to expand and become more powerful is that how Roman morality was entirely opposite to Christianity?

[@buddyltd]

I'm so glad this video has blown up. What a fascinating topic, and I'm very excited to see the other videos on your channel!

[@fionn2220]

"I assert, then, the divine right of the people, ‘God's grant to Adam and his poor children for ever’, to have and to hold this good green earth. And I assert the sovereignty and the sanctity of the nations, which are the people embodied and organised. The nation is a natural division, as natural as the family, and as inevitable. That is one reason why a nation is holy and why an empire is not holy. A nation is knit together by natural ties, ties mystic and spiritual, and ties human and kindly; an empire is at best held together by ties of mutual interest, and at worst by brute force. The nation is the family in large; an empire is a commercial corporation in large. The nation is of God; the empire is of man-if it be not of the devil." -Pádraig Pearse, the first President of Ireland I think this expresses Tolkiens point on empire quite well.

[@paulgabel8261]

Author,can you give us a link to all of the featured paintings in this video? Please, theyre all so fantastic.

[@InkandFantasy]

Of course! These are almost all the classical paintings. I’m a little under the weather but I’ll try adding the rest at some point. Thanks for watching!! 0:35 The Death of Caesar by Jean-Léon Gérôme 1:02 The Romans in their Decadence by Thomas Couture 1:22 Aeneas fleeing from Troy by Pompeo Batoni 1:55 The Sack of Rome by the Barbarians by Joseph-Noël Sylvestre 2:25 The Consummation of Empire by Thomas Cole 2:34 Destruction by Thomas Cole 2:43 The Death of Julius Caesar by Vincenzo Camuccini 3:38 A Roman Emperor: 41 AD by Sir Lawrence Alma-Tadema 3:45 Ave Caesar Morituri te Salutant by Jean-Léon Gérôme 3:56 Vercingetorix throws down his arms at the feet of Julius Caesar by Lionel-Noël Royer 5:07 A Roman Triumph by Peter Paul Rubens 5:18 The wind from Hastings by Luis Royo 6:36 God speed by Edmund Blair Leighton

[@nulltheworm]

@@InkandFantasy Do you know the one at 5:18?

[@InkandFantasy]

I added it to the original reply I made. Thank you for watching!! @@nulltheworm

[@Chewbacca2000]

That was really internesting, thanks man!! Tolkien also related Númenor to Plato's Atlantis, in the Silmarillion after Númenor is destroyed the different names of it are mentioned, one of them is "Atalanta" or something like that, then it describes that the refugees of Númenor/"Atalanta" go on to start civilization elsewhere and "build pyramids" or something it says, which would be a reference to Egypt. I think I'm right with all that haha, you should check it out though, very interesting. He said he had an "Atlantis complex" too; "In a 1955 letter to his friend W. H. Auden, J.R.R. Tolkien confessed, "I have what some might call an Atlantis complex. ... I mean the terrible recurrent dream (beginning with memory) of the Great Wave, towering up, and coming in ineluctably over the trees and green fields" (Letters 163). He was to insist on the significance of this dream again in various correspondences in 1956, 1964, and 1965; over the course of those letters, he refers to his "Atlantis complex" as a dream, vision, myth, legend, and-fascinatingly-dim memory (213, 232, 347, 361). In several of these he also mentions that, though he does not know if either of his parents was subject to the Atlantis haunting, his son Michael "inherited" the dream, and that he (J.R.R.T.) "bequeathed it to Faramir" by some undefined process of ideational inheritance.1 The Great Wave appeared in multiple other places as it developed into an Atlantean myth concerning the island of Númenor. Gradually, the narrative became entwined with other concerns: a pseudo-fall, the Noachian escape of Elendil and his sons to Middle-earth, an attempt at psychological science-fiction, and of course even deeper issues of trauma, reincarnation, time travel, and communication with other living beings." muse.jhu.edu/article/738148/summary

[@PulsatingShadow]

His haplogroup (it's documented, you can look it up) indicates that his ancestors may have survived the sinking of Doggerland, which may have been the location of Atlantis. Perhaps the dreams of drowning are genetic memories.

[@nicechock]

You guys dont know the story is based on the Bible? Not on any roman empire. This video author is completely clueless.

[@riverrun7061]

Good Lord, what kind of cultural state have we reached where I need a nearly 10 minute video to explain to me that a person can hold two contrasting but not necessarily contradictory ideas at the same time?

[@hebanker3372]

The culture of views, my friend.

[@leonake4194]

The state were the people that watched the video mostly wanted to actually know more about Tolkien, instead of the five second answer you seem to be looking for

[@riverrun7061]

@@leonake4194 That was a 5-second answer strung out into nearly 10 minutes. If you didn't realize that listening to it, then that's what I'm talking about.

[@riverrun7061]

@@leonake4194 No, I'm saying that the video itself was a very small amount of content bloviated out in a nearly 10 minutes. I'm saying that the actual content of the video was maybe I don't know 5 to 30 seconds worth of actual content and then just waffling around on expansions and illustrations of the same idea.

[@Mamothrept]

​@riverrun7061 The expansions were useful and interesting to me though 🌲 Hum, why be so hasty. Some things are only worth talking about if they take a long time to say, afterall. 😉

[@shadetree4679]

Really enjoyed this video its a very interesting and detailed take on Tolkien's life and beliefs.

[@catcocomics1601]

My favorite author just got a little more respectable in my eyes, seeing this.

[@santiagorojaspiaggio]

Good video! In short words: he didn't like imperialism and tyranny.

[@isidroramos1073]

Uhmmmm... somehow I don't think Theoden, Denethor and Galadriel were elected in fair, democratic elections (or that the Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that they were righful rulers...)

[@LB-py9ig]

​@isidroramos1073 You might be surprised to learn government had far less say in your life under a Medieval king than it does now in even the most progressive western nation. No, really. It's not even close by a mile.

[@MrRawrCEO]

@@LB-py9ig That's a bit of a twist of logic. Government (if we're just counting developed democratic republics) these days is definitely far more present in our lives due to how interconnected society has become but arguing that it has more say than kings leaves out a LOT of context. Sure there's more rules and such we have to deal with in our daily lives but we also have more protections and conveniences as well. Go back to feudal times and while you could certainly live out your entire life never even noticing that you had a king, your local feudal lord could still ABSOLUTELY make their influence known. Not to mention if your king just happened to be making the rounds in your village and took interest in you for whatever reason you had far less ability to contest than you would in modern times.

[@TheJosep70]

@@LB-py9ig Maybe they didn't have the means to do it?

[@AJX-2]

​@@LB-py9igThat's why Tolkien described his political beliefs as "anarcho-monarchy"

[@mattlikembe]

Very interesting, thanks! For your information, the 2nd Vatican council defines Latin as the only official liturgical language, the local languages being just authorized. This is not properly applied in the Catholic Church like many aspects of this council, which makes the confusion very understandable!

[@narrare.di.storia]

Great video, thanks! Looks like Tolkien shared same views with Tacitus, who didn't like the empire and even give a voice to opponents and natives, but still was deeply loyal to Rome.

[@boxylemons7961]

the more I read about JRR Tolkien the more I admire him as a person.

[@MichaelStanton26]

He was more brilliant than most know

[@Smokey348]

what was he before then?

[@fariesz6786]

i personally believe that Tolkien is someone whose true views are much more complicated and nuanced than what he shouted out into the world. it's often said he hated Shakespeare but i think he mostly just hated what Angliscists had made out of Shakespeare. i suppose whenever he saw entrenched opinions and exaggerated, unreflected reverence of anything he could easily become a contrarian - and as humans do maybe he eventually truly believed his contrarian standpoint, or maybe the truth even there is complicated and different for every topic in question.

[@mrjoe5292]

That's true of anyone, really. We can write down how we might think one day, but what we think can change, how we feel can fluctuate, and at least the less radical and more intelligent people will understand the nuances and complexities of the world, while also understanding the black and whites. I think to really understand how or what a person thinks, or at least, to understand as much as anyone can, you have to know someone closely. Which isn't to say that it's not worth writing our thoughts or trying to understand how others thought, just that it's only ever going to be an approximation. I suppose my point is that Tolkien was at the end of the day just a person. To truly know him and his feelings would require... well, knowing him.

[@NQWG]

Just when i though Tolkien couldn't get more based.

[@amer6706]

Same

[@yadig.]

Same

[@miracleyang3048]

Same

[@hammer3721]

Tolkien is a Dacian supremacist.

[@starroving6464]

Same

[@raphaelledesma9393]

The Fall of the Western Roman Empire is why Europe is a kaleidoscope of different cultures and kingdoms and not simply a Roman outpost. Rome had its day but something beautiful sprung from its ashes.

[@Diogolindir]

But argueably Rome was an already a multicultural empire which practiced syncretism and that itself created new cultures in each province. The Romans were not a rigid uniform culture. Sure they had structures but usually according to their basic laws but Egypt for instance had a beautiful greco-roman-egyptian culture, temples for Epona in Gaul had a Greco-Roman personality to it, new gods and goddesses were adopted, fashion changed according to the mixture of roman culture and their locals. So I partially disagree for I do believe post Roman cultures were very beautiful as well.

[@GAMER123GAMING]

@@Diogolindir "tempes for Epona in Gaul had a Greco-Roman personality to it" How... diverse.

[@Diogolindir]

@@GAMER123GAMING I fail to see your point.

[@heraadrian7764]

As beautifull as sanguine roses blooming on blood soaked earth.

[@chalupabatman1803]

I think it would be better to explain it as “The fall of the western empire is why Europe is the current kaleidoscope of different peoples and cultures. Romans did not simply move into areas and replace the people who were there(though they obviously did that also). They ruled a very very very cosmopolitan empire with many different people and cultures. It just explains how it became this certain kaleidoscope, but it was going to be a thing no matter what

[@KAZVorpal]

Hating the evildoing of one's own political class is part of loving one's nation. That's how so many Americans think of the evils imposed overseas in our name.

[@thepatriarchy8443]

Not truly in our name, that's just what our government tells us. It's in reality for corporations and NGOs.

[@KAZVorpal]

@@thepatriarchy8443 I agree completely, except I said in our name in the sense that they go out into the world and commit evil under the pretense that WE are doing it. They are the OFFICIAL face of Americans. Oh, and one other caveat: They aren't doing it in the name of those corporations, they OWN those corporations. The political class created corporate law specifically so they could monopolize capital and legally plunder society.

[@MWhaleK]

As someone who is DEEPLY interested in the Ancient Celts and identifies somewhat with them? I sympathize with anyone who is Anti-Imperial Rome.

[@birgbirg111]

imagine simping for an empire

[@adambrande]

lol the very same celts who started living like Romans and began fighting for them? You can't identify to a celt unless you go out of the street naked swinging your "sword"

[@jayargee492]

What the fuck do you mean you "somewhat identify" with the *Ancient Celts?*

[@hebanker3372]

@@birgbirg111 Imagine simping for a long lost tribe.

[@MWhaleK]

@@adambrande The same Celts who crushed Rome long before Rome was an empire, Crushed Greece and raided it's most holy shrine, Spread from Ireland to Turkey and from Northern Spain to Iceland, were one of the Europe's first masters of Iron and whose priestly/intellectual cast (the druids) are still a by word for Wisdom. A people group whose languages gave us words like Car and Trousers as well as others. Who legends gave us King Arthur, Merlin, Morganna and Mab as well as great influenced the writings of Tolkein.

[@casslane3932]

i grew up with both english and irish culture i even met my greatgrandmother who was a staunch imperialist and in many ways still believed in the inferiority of the irish yet she had a half irish grandson and didnt say a word but she looked at all the "other" cultures and peoples who were once beneath her as a threat. history is both simple and complicated and i found both english culture and irish culture had its own merits and i love both yet never could ignore the fact they have always been so interconnected but also how not so long ago me being half irish would have looked very different than now. personaly especialy in the isles we all have way more in common than not and there is somthing in every culture you can find to love and respect so i wish we could all see it and learn perhaps from eachother and love rather than hate. very idealistic but i see tolkiens opion and agree

[@Intelwinsbigly]

Ggrandma was fucking based

[@pattonramming1988]

She's right look what happened in recent years

[@Yahya-sb1yo]

​@@pattonramming1988"Imperialism" is what brought the things youre talking about

[@pattonramming1988]

@@Yahya-sb1yo imperialism brought the weakness of Britain?

[@Yahya-sb1yo]

@@pattonramming1988 Directly or indirectly, yes

[@aizac91]

As an Asian (southeast) Tolkien is what I perceived to be a true Pro-European man. Loved what’s good for his kind, culture, and continent but also love for others for what is good for their kind and lands. As a global south opinion this is The most vital trait and thinking that is needed among European natives today.

[@WE-R-EVERYWHERE]

Yup. All of you people need to be expelled.

[@5p1t]

i think we had that better for a while, where countries were eager to work together in good faith but since a few years its every country for itself

[@alkrimiy]

Tolkien's vision is seems like my ideal political stance

[@jonirischx8925]

You are a medieval catholic who believes some people have special blood, making them deserving of absolute power over others?

[@rosaeruber225]

yay

[@Mamothrept]

​@@Besthinktwice If his views about good government are based on the medieval model, than it certainly did work in real life. For many hundreds of years. I'm not sure I'd like to go back to something like that, but our current system sure is facing challenges right now. I believe we have a lot to humbly learn and incorporate from the past systems

[@talesofgore9424]

don't worry we are well on our way to cyberfeudalism. @@Besthinktwice

[@G96Saber]

@@Besthinktwice I don't you understand anything about life in the medieval era, if your immediate response is > muh chivalric romances

[@emoxvx]

Tolkien hated the Roman Empire because he hated imperialism, as any sane person would.

[@surgiosurge]

Depends, if youre part of the empire i don't think it's sane to hate it

[@Rauser142]

@@surgiosurge it is if the same empire erases your people's identity

[@gklimt8505]

This is a great piece. Thank you for helping me understand Tolkien better. I admire him even more now, if that is possible.

[@spaulding304]

It's crazy to think how impactful the Roman Empire was to our very existence and identity today. The West is a remarkable, thriving remnant of it.

[@didonegiuliano3547]

as Italian, I know very well

[@rubenhernandez8059]

I love it when great authors are done justice. Tolkien especially since we share a faith. I applaud you on this and you have earned a subscriber today.

[@Александър_Ангелов]

I really like and respect Tolkien! Also your Channel is really enjoyable to watch, thank you!

[@InkandFantasy]

Thank you so much for the kind words!!

[@Damian-ho1yb]

Dude, I enjoy your content. It stands out.

[@Tinnesa]

Great video yet again, thanks.

[@user-tm8jt2py3d]

This is very beautiful, even more so in the context of his books. Very relatable sentiment.

[@heronwireo1085]

In fairness to the Romans, "Multiple nations living in peace" was a foreign concept to the ancient world. It became a concept precisely because of the Roman Empire. Rome after all had been sacked by the Gauls in 390 BC, and doubtless would have been again had it not been conquered in its turn. People at the time took it for granted that force was the only way to preserve peace. I grant everything Tolkien believed about Empire (corrupt, exploitative, destructive to culture) but I also must own that independent nations living in peace generally happens only when rough parity in multiple vectors (population, wealth, military) is in place. Alas, nature abhors an equilibrium, and Pareto distribution is real. I pray for peace, but I don't expect it.

[@davidmurray9193]

He would be disgusted on how Great Britain has had it's heart a soul ripped apart now and it's morals and order destroyed

[@dameanvil]

01:57 🏰 Rome's influence is evident in Tolkien's work, but he despised empire-building and its consequences. 03:39 🇬🇧 Tolkien was a staunch traditionalist and patriot, advocating for localism over imperial expansion. 05:37 🌍 He valued the preservation of local languages and cultures, including Latin, which he deeply loved. 07:28 💡 Tolkien's experiences and beliefs profoundly influenced his writings, including "The Lord of the Rings."

[@piperjj4486]

Localist seemed to be the best way to describe him. It's more nuanced than he just hated Imperialism.

[@unarealtaragionevole]

You hint at something much deeper about an unspoken influence on Tolkien shared by many European writers of northern Europe since the Middle Ages. You were correct to call him a "medievalist," as he and many similar writers had preferences to use the influences and imagery of the Middle Ages which tended to come from more northern European sources than southern European...especially Ireland, UK, France, and Germany. With the decline of the Western Empire and rise of the Kingdoms across the Middle Ages, there were many active attempts to separate the local cultures with their Roman origins assuming they had any to begin with. And while Tolkien embraced the Middle Ages in his work, he was also under the greater influence of northern Europe to replace the classical world with the more recent medieval world which looked more like them.

[@hebanker3372]

I think Tokien's dispositions on the matter comes more from the 19th centrury, romantic views of the Middle Age than actual medieval writers. In fact, the more the germanic kingdoms progressed, the more they embraced southern concepts, like roman law, architecture and theology. It was the romanticism in the 19th century that enabled the people of Europe to reject the infatuation with latin culture and go back to their ''roots'', which in some ways developed greatly the ideas of nationalism.

[@unarealtaragionevole]

@@hebanker3372 True, but the romanticism that you are talking about is just a more extreme example of what I am trying to describe as a "greater influence." I agree with what you are saying, Tolkien and other writers of the day were romanticizing the medieval world, but this was just more writers from primarily northern Europe trying to promote the 'grandness' of something that was shaped primarily by northern European cultures. This romanticism wasn't something created in the 19th century, but just a continuation of a literary culture that began as early as the 11th century and I like to debate is continuing today.

[@hebanker3372]

@@unarealtaragionevole If by northern writers you mean the writers and compilers of epics, then you are missing half the picture. Most of these writers wrote to propagandize on behalf of their patrons. The Nibelungenlied was an epic fabrication to promote the ''locality'' of the Burgundian nobles, particularily the dukes. The song of Roland was meant to encourage warriors to fight the Musims in Spain. The Life of king Louis was written to promote the pious dynasty of the Capetians and strengthen the relationship with the pope. Even the sagas of the Northmen had political motivations. My point is that the romantics of the 19th century tried to view those works of literature, which served their own agendas, as genuine works of art, bereft of ulterior motives.

[@unarealtaragionevole]

@@hebanker3372 By northern writers I mean the literary cultures that developed from predominately northern European regions and peoples from about the year 1000 and later, who actively chose to abandon classical (predominantly Roman and Greek) themes, archetypes, and retellings and instead chose to start writing about themselves instead. Regardless their reasons, from about 1000 and later we start to see the bulk of the literary culture for western Europe begin to centralize on medieval themes, events, peoples.....which tended to focus not on classical themes of the south, but of the northern regions in control of the day. By doing this, a literary bias began to form that bled through the centuries and led to the type of propaganda style writings(at least in the more extreme cases) you were talking about. This bias, was still present even in the 1800 and1900s when Tolkien was forming his opinions about things. So him saying something like I don't like Rome, or if his writing is focusing on medieval themes instead, then he is subject to question if he was not being influenced by these biases that started long before him and he didn't even know it.

[@glishev]

The strange thing about Tolkien hating 'empire' as an idea is that he was born and lived most of his life in the British one. He never hated being an Englishman (of course he didn't). He was rather sad about the Anglican Communion, being a Catholic. He had nothing against royalties coming from copies of "The Lord of the Rings" sold in the original English language in far countries like Canada, New Zealand, Australia, etc. He even had nothing against his own invented realm of Gondor which is described like a former empire in Appendix A of LotR. And yet, he hated the notion of 'empire'. One of the man's many internal tensions, I guess.

[@derrickpatten7252]

5:50 Did Tolkien really write "(grr!)" in letter 53?!

[@InkandFantasy]

yes!!

[@tehgankerer]

Honestly its quite easy to draw any comparisons between the roman empire and any fictional nation's history/mythos. The Roman empire spanned 7 centuries (including the republic). In such a massive timespan there's plenty of examples to draw for comparison.

[@padensmith4354]

Your essays are fantastic

[@InkandFantasy]

Thank you so much!!

[@Neo2266.]

I'm glad that even Tolkien thought about the Roman empire at least once per day

[@gregk2369]

This made me realize how much smarter he was than all of us

[@aimeeinkling]

Yeah, it was a pretty unusual position for him to have taken at the time and if he hadn't possessed such a formidable intellect capable of arguing his position successfully, he probably would have suffered consequences for it.

[@unifieddynasty]

''For myself, I would see White Tree in flower again in the courts of the Kings, and the Silver Crown return, and Minas Tirith in peace: Minas Anor again as of old, full of light, high and fair, beautiful as a queen among queens..."

[@FalkFlak]

Very informative. I wonder how Tolkien accomodated the very dynamic and fluent nature of culture which is in an ever evolving changing and interchanging state towards "outside" influences.

[@efaristi9737]

You can love some aspects of a culture while loathing others parts of it. I see no paradox in it, cultures are complex and with multiples facets just like peoples. 4:18 On that, Tolkien and i share similar values, i too think nations should cooperate and learn to live together without imposing themselves onto others and preserving what made their cultures and civilisation so unique. The wealth of humanity, of life, is its diversity, not everything being the same.

[@hebanker3372]

''The wealth of humanity, of life, is its diversity, not everything being the same.'' Someone really needs to get grip on life.

[@efaristi9737]

@@hebanker3372 You disagree ?

[@hebanker3372]

@@efaristi9737 That's not how the human world works. We are creatures of competition, killing each other for resources. This will never change.

[@efaristi9737]

@@hebanker3372 Says you. I for one won't pretend to know the future or what can and cannot possibly change. Also, that doesn't change the truth of what i said. Because despite that "competition", diversity of life endure.

[@samueldimmock694]

@@hebanker3372 Zero sum fallacy exists for a reason, after all. But then again, cooperation is more profitable when it works, and that also will never change.

[@Pangora2]

In my age, I noticed a lot of art is made with the creators trying to grapple with a question. You know those movies where someone useless goes back in time, but then the knowledge or a trinket they brought from the future winds up saving the day? Like that. In that scenario we of the future have such bounty and neat tools - yet are we any better off? Such a story asks what value the future can bring to the past. While Tolkien may have disliked an Imperial system crushing local cultures he would have enjoyed to keep around we also must note when LotR is set. Little humble very British-like Shirefolk who seemingly live in an island apart from the rest of civilization wind up penetrating the divided and bickering kingdom(s) of the Men of the West, to save New Rome from the hordes of the East. What if the Crusades could have been better controlled to save New Rome? As you say, Tolkien doesn't like that an Empire winds up homogenizing parts of itself - but at the same time sees that the culture that makes up that Empire, or a rump thereof, is also yet another Culture he would not want to see get the same treatment. "What if we could just stop losing cultures and freeze things as-they-are?" Celts nearly wiped out Rome before, and letting each independent culture stay as such doesn't mean that over the course of time that they would all remain. And yet as much as he adores the variety of great cultures, as I do, by preserving them all we deny the right of new cultures to be born. So I wouldn't say its a Strong Hate against the Roman Empire itself. But a hate against the entropy that inevitably will rob us of all cultures. If Carthage was not wiped out by Rome, Modern Carthage would scarcely resemble Ancient Carthage. The culture of the Roman Kingdom of Romulus, if preserved would not have allowed The Republic to form had it never changed. Early and Late Imperial Rome, not to mention the thousand years of rule from New Rome are also up for grabs. LotR asks us, okay, cultures come and go, but what's the ethos of a Culture that sticks around? Elves have their own great culture and language that everyone else respects - yet the Elves are kinda okay with it ending. As you point out Tolkien respected the freedom fighters in WW2. People that will fight to keep their culture going, what are they thinking? what drives them when the hour is darkest?

[@jodioster91]

Nostalgia is for prissy women, romantics, dreamers, idealists, and eunuchs. Real women like Galadriel and the elves realize the world and creation itself are constantly changing. We cannot fight the change. Fortunately, if the human experience has taught us anything. It's that we are extremely adaptable. hurrah for us!!

[@jodioster91]

five fingers for a reason

[@Adventures_with_nick]

It’s called the Celtic genocide. The death toll among Celtic peoples (which really were native Europeans as they made up the population of nearly all of Europe) by the Romans was horrific. Just look at the Romance languages today and you can hear the Celtic or Pre-Roman influence, as they are diverged from Latin especially French and Portuguese

[@jakehshsh2955]

That is why thank you roman empire. You know what is funny you still use latin words and letters for your big losses 😂

[@bb1111116]

The video makes a premise *”Why Tolkien Hated the Roman Empire”* with only a sentence in one letter as direct evidence. * The video misses that Tolkien’s politics changed as he grew older. So which Tolkien are we talking about? The one who served in the British army in World War 1? Or the more pacifist Tolkien of World War 2? Tolkien was a complex man who was an idealist and a realist. He could have conflicting ideas. * The video falsely distorts Tolkien’s mythology to support this premise. - Aragorn became the king of Gondor, which had an Empire. Tolkien’s myth is very supportive of the Numenorians who were loyal to the Valar which had monarchies in Middle-earth. * In real life, Tolkien was a monarchist who wanted the king/queen of England to have direct power over parliament. - Next whatever Tolkien’s criticisms were of the British Empire, he accepted the Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (CBE) honor. Overall he supported the British Empire. - Tolkien preferred England over Britain because he wanted emphasis on the Anglo-Saxon roots of England’s culture. Not because he was against an empire.

[@brettjohnson536]

Literary version of the Florida man challenge. Type in "why Tolkien hated" then the first letter of your name, see what comes up

[@oleksijm]

It's really debatable whether the Romans actually 'eradicated' the cultures of the people they conquered. Judging by numerous examples of Gallo-Roman, Germano-Roman and Punic-Roman culturally synthetic artefacts, inscriptions and attestations, it would seem far fetched of a claim.

[@birgbirg111]

I'm sure you'd like to be a roman slave, enjoying all that glory and whatnot

[@hebanker3372]

The idea of imperial Rome being a homogenous country or culture is the result of 19th century and onwards ethno-states trying to grasp older times through their own nationalistic worldviews.

[@jessiemeisenheimer8675]

So changing them to be Roman? Doesn't really change the point.

[@oleksijm]

@@jessiemeisenheimer8675 gradual assimilation and cultural synthesis is not eradication.

[@italianspaghett4359]

@@oleksijm it is, just slower and less painfull

[@AlejandroM9623]

The beacons are way more ancient than the Rome empire, you can find the system in classic greek literature about the Trojan war.

[@OhOliver]

Tolkien: *Uses roman mythology for his writings* Also Tolkien: I hate everything about their conquests, they should return to their humble origin: Their humble origin: Clan wars, wars with greece and other local states, low quality military and abundance of mercenaries Tolkien: Ah, the good times Tolkien: I hate wars Also Tolkien: Writes a war story about conquest of rings of power

[@josephippolito1402]

This

[@YAH2121]

So he didnt hate the Romans themselves, he just hated the concept of empires and imperialism and its negative cultural impacts on local peoples. He was patriotic but not imperialist.

[@overlord5068]

False. He hated the polytheist beliefs and practices and many actions of the romans and their empire Get your facts straight, troll

[@stormisuedonym4599]

I don't think anyone familiar with the history and culture of the Roman Empire could, after reading even just the Hobbit and LotR, come away with it with the impression that he could but dislike it, or fail to understand why.

[@tamaveirene]

IMO Great content shared with zeal between myself and my grandson...Tolkien and his contemporaries are our favourites. These men were literary Titans...almost incomprehensible to today's youth!

[@Donerci_Pikacu_Usta]

Yes! I guessed it correctly! He hates it because Rome destroyed many cultures

[@daniels7907]

Kind of an odd argument given that Tolkien basically treats the (re)united kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor as a single empire with a single ruler, and even the Rohirrim and Rohan are given Sindaran names (that Elven language being favored by Arnor/Gondor in the same way that the Roman Empire used Koine Greek alongside their own Latin). Likewise, Westron (derived from Numenorean language) is treated as a "common longue" by most of northwestern Middle-earth. Indeed, Tolkien treats it as the happy ending of LotR that all those lands will fall under a single King and culture, with the Rohirrim basically being a satellite state whose native language is rarely used, or even acknowledged, by the people of Gondor.

[@majeedmamah7457]

Unification is different from Imperialism

[@daniels7907]

@@majeedmamah7457 - Semantics. Arnor was basically gone. So Aragorn was essentially telling all Men who lived in that part of Middle-earth that he was now their King based on an *extremely* ancient ancestral claim.

[@majeedmamah7457]

@@daniels7907 no not semantics. Aragon didn't forcibly subjugate them all. Think of it like Bismarck's unification of Germany where multiple principalities see the benefit of being one nation. They had just suffered a devastating war with Sauron and obviously saw the benefit of a more united force

[@daniels7907]

@@majeedmamah7457 - He didn't have to subjugate any *nations* because the northwest was fragmented. But he most certainly *did* claim rulership over what peoples were there. It's not all that different from how Rome justified their expansionism as a "defensive" posture, expanding their rule so as to reduce the potential for rival nations to challenge their authority. Note that Tolkien takes this back even earlier. Despite his supposed anti-imperialist views, he viewed the threeway split of Arnor into independent nations as an unequivocally bad thing that made them more vulnerable to Angmar. Which was largely the real life argument for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and the vast global empire it had built. Tolkien claims to hate allegory, but even he wasn't immune to using it. His own writings treat the height of Men's civilization in Middle-Earth as having been when Arnor and Gondor were unified. When they weren't not unified, that was treated as proof that they were both weakening and endangered. Then the glory returns with the King, when he restores the ancient empire.

[@majeedmamah7457]

@@daniels7907 I don't think you can say lotr is meant to be parallel to real life. His stories do not inform on his personal political views. Also I do think unification is a good thing when it's done non violently.

[@macblink]

This speaks much about his love for freedom, and respect for other countries, cultures, languages and traditions, and also his hate for tyranny 👌🏻

[@joshuacooley1417]

I agree with the main points of the video, but I think you could expand the conversation by also considering a decentralized empire. Namely the Holy Roman Empire. It is often maligned for not being a real empire because it was so decentralized and in a certain sense fragmented. The HRE was composed of around 300 local sovereignties who had their own local customs, rulers, cultures, etc. All of these were united in the person of the Emperor who had fairly limited power. Primarily he enforced the law, was the highest judicial authority, handled war and defense, and represented the Empire to the rest of the world. I think in the Catholic mind there was something, as well, to the concept of a highest temporal, civil, authority just as the Pope was the highest spiritual ecclesial authority.

[@maksimsharamko6545]

Empires emerge and dissolve for a reason... Everything has reasons.

[@pogo8050]

That’s what they talk about in the video

[@johnmitchelljr]

Love your thoughtful and insightful channel. Well done. Tolkien and Orwell great writers. Thank you.

[@InkandFantasy]

It means a lot, thank you! And thanks for watching!!

[@gothia1715]

Rome often gets idolized without second thought. But i agree with Tolkien here. The roman spirit was a very aggressive one. Sure, there was a reason for it when you have many aggressive neighbours. But the way Rome did conquest, annihilation and assimilation of the defeated cultures and especially the slavery was nothing we should idolize. Also the huge decadency which came up quite early on in roman history. The cultural, architectural and educational achievements of Rome are marvelous of course.

[@RussianOccupier190]

Nothing wrong with conquest or annihilation and assimilation of different cultures Rome did what had to be done.

[@Sageofthenation]

Man, I wonder how he would have admired the 'cultural enrichment' of his homeland as it is now.

[@trollking99]

The Haradrim and Easterlings.

[@curious_one1156]

there is nowhere safe from the dark lord. He lies in wait.

[@basedkaiser5352]

​@@trollking99Haradr had noble qualities at least.

[@Sinewmire]

Utterly fascinating. Thanks for sharing!

[@pirategirl94best]

Protect this mans legacy at all costs.

[@CMVBrielman]

Counterpoint: empire is inevitable. When any society has the opportunity to form an empire, it does. Therefore, at any time, we have a duty to recognize who has the opportunity and who thinks they do, and act accordingly. If one is part of a society with the inclination and ability to establish an empire, they must be cognizant of that fact and treat it not only as an opportunity but a responsibility. I don’t mean a responsibility to form an empire, but a responsibility to act with care if they should do so. The fact that, of all the empires of Western Eurasia, Rome endured for almost a millennia as a contiguous empire, suggests that they did not do terribly, as empires go. One can believe that while also accepting that they were brutal, even by the standards of their time. But brutality alone cannot account for their longevity - or else vast swaths of Eurasia would be speaking dialects of Mongolian.

[@kurukblackflame]

The pre-Christian Roman Empire was far more tolerant of other cultures and religions than the later era Christian Roman Empire. Indeed, a large reason for it's instability and collapse (alongside the wealth of the Empire being increasingly concentrated in a small number of people) was the intolerance of the monotheistic church of late Rome-Which lead to more conflict and unrest than would have occurred under the more tolerant and pragmatic poly-theist Empire. The Roman Empire was far from perfect, but the Church did much more damage to cultural diversity and innovation. Seems odd that he would love the Church and hate the (more culturally tolerant) pre-Christian Empire.

[@jakehshsh2955]

Jesus is god hahahahha ⛪

[@wybuchowyukomendant]

So basically he hated the way Roman empire grew, digesting different cultures and homogenizing the world? That`s understandable, every sensible human being should feel the same.

[@darylwilliams7883]

Tolkien recognized I think that the Roman Empire was based on incredible privilege of a few based on incredible suffering for the rest. And it was the suffering he hated.

[@brunoactis1104]

The medieval era was not much better in that regard. In fact, i'd image it was worse.

[@ordinaryrat]

Roman Empire was actually very well rounded socially compared to the middle ages.

[@ordinaryrat]

@@Brunel1859 The local conquered populations were often better off under Roman rule so its more just customs and traditions

[@Kidneyjoe42]

That was everywhere, though. The life of a Gaulish peasant was not appreciably different under Roman rule. In fact, being conquered by Rome almost certainly improved the quality of life of the average Briton. If anything, Roman rule was more egalitarian than the feudal monarchies that followed. Many men of modest birth managed to rise through the Roman military to positions of power, with some like Justinian even becoming emperor. The Roman Empire wasn't all butterflies and rainbows, but demonizing it while idealizing medieval Europe like Tolkien did makes no sense at all.

[@hallroney]

good video to make clear the difference between bad and good nationalism, you can love your land and people without hating and opressing others. Based J R R

[@Meowmento]

This made me respect Tolkien even more!