Why Tolkien Hated the Roman Empire

In this video we explore the beliefs of J. R. R. Tolkien on the subject of the Roman Empire, as well as how Rome influenced Middle Earth and the Lord of the Rings!
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I do not own the footage, art or music within this video.
Any feedback is always welcome, I hope you enjoy!!
Below are the songs used in the order they are played:
Josef Suk, Serenade, Op 6 by A Far Cry
W. A. Mozart, Symphony No.38 in D major by A Far Cry
Symphony No. 5 (by Beethoven) by artist stated as "Beethoven" in KZbin Studio but I doubt the man came from the dead to record it

[@InkandFantasy]

According to the script I say “itself” 10 times!!

[@bas-tn3um]

according the completely made up argument you made.

[@Hydra-dr8hd]

All Catholics hate the Roman Empire so it's not surprising that Tolkien hated the Roman Empire The Roman Empire used to persecute Catholics (= Christians) and throw them in arenas with wild animals

[@overlord5068]

He was a Catholic and all Catholics of all times were and always will be against the polytheist Roman empire

[@apollomars1678]

nope minas thirid is not based on Konstantinopel, but more likely Adrianopel, while Osgiliath is often compared with Konstantinopel in the narrative, that wants to make the evil races and orcs to Muslims. This is bullshit. It is more about northern western european society, explicit the UK. Numenor didnt slowly widdled and died out, it sink into the ocean, like atlantis. It is more an analogy about good vs bad colonialism and ergo the british empire. Anarion and Isildur were not brothers, at best you could compare arnor and gondor to the western and eastern roman empire. the civilwar didnt happend over the minority of the king, but by the pro-elven or pro-men views in numenor with the faithfull being surrounded by a princess, while the true king tried to attack the land to the west and failed. It is more an analogy to the fight in Islam after the death of Mohamed between Abū Bakr and Fātima, the later mother of Ali. the dunedain are racial superiour to their colonial subjects, because of their age (200-600) to men (60), but this blood is slowly lost in gondor by the gondorians, who are by "good" colonialisation cultural adapted to numenorian culture without being numenorian, because they die to early to record the knowledge of the numenorians. This desiree and the thinning of the numenorian blood over time is one of the main reasons of the slow downfall of gondor, even portrayed in the movies. Haradrim using elephants is not an analogy to carthago..... It is more probably about india than carthago and maybe they are even about sometime else, like british people handling the mystical elephants from stories only known even for the rohirim on the battlefield. the battle on the hornburg is not a fancy comparison to a fight by some Horatius, who defended Rome from the etruscians, ffs. Tolkien didnt compared the HORN-BURG with the latin genus horatius, who broke down a BRIDGE to defend early rome. It is mor elikely, that Tolkien hated Rome, because they invaded britannia and made it to a colony and brought a believe into britannia with a sole power, that corrupted everyone, who touched it and twisted his natural british views to a practical, exploiting and hateful view to every naturalistic god, called christianity....

[@bas-tn3um]

nope let me ass pull while giving no sources. heeeee hawwww appolo homosexual. @@apollomars1678

[@LLPTV]

Even Tolkien thought about Roman empire at least every week.

[@attemptedunkindness3632]

It's a perennial problem that all alpha males are required to at least think about the Roman Empire at least once every 160 hours. Ideally you are looking for numbers like 12-24 hours but Tolkien is forgiven for he is an aged G who left a good chunk of his testosterone simply surviving outrageous WW1 battles.

[@paulmayson3129]

What if you think about it 24/24, 7/7???@@attemptedunkindness3632

[@maximusd26]

if it's not every day, how would you face your ancestors ?

[@isaackellogg3493]

@@maximusd26with the right (dexter) side of my visage. They’d expect nothing less.

[@VVabsa]

@@attemptedunkindness3632 Question, does one think about the entire history of the Romans from 753BC - 480 AD (1453 AD if you count the Eastern Roman/Byzantine empire) or the Empire part specifically?

[@derfelcadarn8230]

Tolkien was a traditional Catholic, a Royalist & a counter-revolutionary ; as such, his main inspiration, like all true counter-revolutionaries, was the Christian Middle Ages. An aristocratic social order with a secretly democratic mentality; a strong, patriarchal monarchy with extensive local liberties: a warrior-nobility that still submited to the spiritual authority of the priestly order; a politically fragmented Europe that thought of itself as a spiritually united continent, headed by the Holy Church, and whose warring polities could put aside their differences when necessary (the Crusades, for example) etc. Medieval Christendom was full of these wonderful paradoxes which Tolkien thought to be the basis of true authority and true freedom. So, of course, it's not surprising that Tolkien hated the Roman Empire, and more generally, the very idea of Empire. Imperialism, true imperialism that is, was completely foreign to the medieval mind. When Tolkien described himself as both an anarchist & a conservative, that is what he meant.

[@Digganob590]

I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of your comment, but I am intrigued by one phrase: "An aristocratic social order with a secretly democratic mentality;" What precisely do you mean by this? I wouldn't think you meant democratic in the same way we mean it today, that being the power is directed by the people, as it is in modern democracies. Do you mean the spirit and will of the people being taken into consideration by government?

[@binbows2258]

@@Digganob590 I think the idea is that the nobility are "chosen" by and serve as the "representatives" of the common people. They hold unquestionable authority, but it is a righteous authority that the people "agreed" to let them have. Essentially, the noble dynasties themselves were "chosen" by the people to lead them.

[@Digganob590]

@@binbows2258 Hey now, let's let the OP speak for himself. By the way, fun fact, every political system is a democracy once you piss the people off enough.

[@robmartin5448]

he wasn't a fan of the nahsis he was not a fan of fascists. In some ways Rome was a very fascist society. That's why Skyrim gives you a mission to join the Empire or the Stormcloacks in Tolkien fashion. Would Tolkien have sided with Empire?

[@drlca6601]

barons and magna carta@@Digganob590

[@TheMoguera]

So it's not that he hates the roman empire, he just doesn't like empires?

[@sindrimyr5351]

Indeed. He hates the idea of empires imposing their culture and language upon other civilizations and thus trying to eradicate the previous peoples customs. He preferes diversity and richness of culture and languages as opposed to one universalized and centrified culture.

[@jaykilbourne1110]

TL,DR; He favors chaos, anarchy, and destructive conflict.@@sindrimyr5351

[@underarmbowlingincidentof1981]

@Hlord-be4xx same thing basically. although cooperation between those culturally diverse people is something he does value. I mean I'd say isolationism is something he warns about in his books.

[@muhammadedwards8425]

​@Hlord-be4xxI don't think so. A massive confederation or other grouping of semi-independent states that have their own culture would probably be something he'd be down with. Like an idealized Russia, or if the EU was a state and also a utopia

[@hebanker3372]

Which is kind of an oxymoron, for if the Romans hadn't embraced Christianity, he wouldn't have been a Christian himself. The concept of imperium is a double edged sword.

[@bilas85]

This is something that i have noticed in several british works from the half of the 19th century on - parallelisms between the british empire and the romans would surprisingly pop up in the most unexpected places, and be always negative thoward the second. What i find curious is the distance in time between the two, which normally would prevent any comparison. It is though something that any empire would do, building their own narrative using a previous great example as a meter of measure to reaffirm their actual superior greatness, for example the early franks empires are all about that: we are greater, we are better, our claims are more justifiable, and so on. Tolkien was a top-level educated man of his time, when clearly such opinions would be a part of the zeitgeist.

[@georgebethanis3188]

The Romans were so cool and the legacy so great that every european power had tried to mimic or play as the new Rome. Napoleon, the Germans, the Brits, the Americans, Russians, Turks.

[@mnk9073]

The British "hated" the Roman Empire because a) the French were quicker to claim it, I mean Napoleon literally handed out Aquilas and crowned himself Caesar b) Britain was essentially a backwater far from civilisations bright light and yet the British took the better part of two millenia to reach the level of sophistication again that was Roman Britain and c) even at the height of it's power _the Empire_ was a sorry network of trade posts and forts compared to the cultural, social and economic hegemony that was the Roman Empire.

[@georgebethanis3188]

@@mnk9073 I dont agree, the Brits were quite progressive, and were the heart of the industrial revolution. Moreover they were quite versatile during the middle ages despite being a nation with a small population.

[@GaryJones69420]

​​@@mnk9073sounds like you either a) hate the British or b) dont know much about the British Empire.

[@mnk9073]

@@georgebethanis3188Nobody is saying they were not industrious or inventive but they always lacked the cultural splendour and the sophistication. Victorian London is described even by patriotic Brits as a sprawling soot covered Moloch, a destitute modern Babylon, utter Bedlam far from the beauty of Rome. Hell, Tolkien himself saw it as that and agreed with Blake on the "dark satanic mills". During the middle ages England played an important role in it's sphere, Scotland, Ireland and France but most of Europe was, in contrast to the geopolitical giants like France, Spain and the HRE, largely indifferent to and unbothered by it.

[@fionn2220]

"I assert, then, the divine right of the people, ‘God's grant to Adam and his poor children for ever’, to have and to hold this good green earth. And I assert the sovereignty and the sanctity of the nations, which are the people embodied and organised. The nation is a natural division, as natural as the family, and as inevitable. That is one reason why a nation is holy and why an empire is not holy. A nation is knit together by natural ties, ties mystic and spiritual, and ties human and kindly; an empire is at best held together by ties of mutual interest, and at worst by brute force. The nation is the family in large; an empire is a commercial corporation in large. The nation is of God; the empire is of man-if it be not of the devil." -Pádraig Pearse, the first President of Ireland I think this expresses Tolkiens point on empire quite well.

[@NQWG]

Just when i though Tolkien couldn't get more based.

[@amer6706]

Same

[@yadig.]

Same

[@miracleyang3048]

Same

[@hammer3721]

Tolkien is a Dacian supremacist.

[@starroving6464]

Same

[@emoxvx]

Tolkien hated the Roman Empire because he hated imperialism, as any sane person would.

[@nonono9194]

Exactly. He'd hate the imperialism and colonialism that's occured again his beloved England without a doubt.

[@fariesz6786]

i personally believe that Tolkien is someone whose true views are much more complicated and nuanced than what he shouted out into the world. it's often said he hated Shakespeare but i think he mostly just hated what Angliscists had made out of Shakespeare. i suppose whenever he saw entrenched opinions and exaggerated, unreflected reverence of anything he could easily become a contrarian - and as humans do maybe he eventually truly believed his contrarian standpoint, or maybe the truth even there is complicated and different for every topic in question.

[@victormolinatorres]

Wonderfully written video!! You got precisely to the point and made clear what Toklien had in his head (with wich I could not agree more) Really interesting topic!!

[@drmwpn]

Fascinating, but I have to agree with Russell, while Rome's contributions to culture were absolutely paltry relative to Greece, no one with any real love or appreciation for the West can truly hate Rome, because the true alternative to Rome was not some cornucopia of intact small, independent city-state sized cultures flourishing in perpetual freedom, it was conquest by Persia or Carthage, both of which were profoundly despotic (at least as much as Rome and probably far more so; try finding a Carthaginian equivalent to the Gracchi), and neither of which had any love for Greek culture. But for Rome, Greece and all she represented would have been subsumed by empire regardless, only with the eastern option, rather than honoring and preserving the Greek developments in the arts and sciences, they would have simply been destroyed or perverted in the service of their absolutist rulers.

[@jaijoerik6233]

Tell me you know nothing about Persia and Carthage without telling me you know nothing about Persia and Carthage

[@YAH2121]

So he didnt hate the Romans themselves, he just hated the concept of empires and imperialism and its negative cultural impacts on local peoples. He was patriotic but not imperialist.

[@overlord5068]

False. He hated the polytheist beliefs and practices and many actions of the romans and their empire Get your facts straight, troll

[@narrare.di.storia]

Great video, thanks! Looks like Tolkien shared same views with Tacitus, who didn't like the empire and even give a voice to opponents and natives, but still was deeply loyal to Rome.

[@unifieddynasty]

''For myself, I would see White Tree in flower again in the courts of the Kings, and the Silver Crown return, and Minas Tirith in peace: Minas Anor again as of old, full of light, high and fair, beautiful as a queen among queens..."

[@stormisuedonym4599]

I don't think anyone familiar with the history and culture of the Roman Empire could, after reading even just the Hobbit and LotR, come away with it with the impression that he could but dislike it, or fail to understand why.

[@tomosjackson4760]

I stand firm with Carthago Delenda Est. Carthage itself is a good example of a culture that practiced child sacrifice to false gods. While not all aspects of cultures are bad, in the grand sum of things, a culture can be seen as largely bad and so it is beneficial when it is destroyed. Though I would also insist that no records be changed and no myths or changes made to said destroyed cultures. I am glad that the warlike, barbaric culture of those who went Viking is gone, but I wish we retained the knowledge of it, even if we abhor its practices.

[@heraadrian7764]

Corect. We must be realistic and use our experience as humans of the past and present to make ourselves better to not suffer the same pain forevermore like imbeciles.

[@heraadrian7764]

Never meet your hero is here to slapp us silly😂.

[@GAMER123GAMING]

There was no viking knowledge. They raided monasteries and they destroyed the knowledge. they came back to mudhuts.

[@bertrecht913]

There was much knowledge arrogant fool.

[@tomosjackson4760]

@@GAMER123GAMING Well I probably wouldn't be so absolute in that regard, but in any case I misspoke, I meant more in terms of their culture. The monks changed a few aspects of Norse mythology to the point where we can't be certain what are the things they believed and what are the things that the monks re-wrote to give it a more Christian bent.

[@DidYaServe]

The most intelligent men in history knew that tyranny and empire were the worst outcome for mankind. Tolkien was one of them.

[@RussianOccupier190]

Tyranny and empire are not necessarily the same without Rome and the many empires that preceded it we would still be living in the Stone Age this idea that different nations can peacefully coexist without going to war over land and resources has to one the most retarded I have ever heard.

[@АлександърКалоянов]

I really like and respect Tolkien! Also your Channel is really enjoyable to watch, thank you!

[@InkandFantasy]

Thank you so much for the kind words!!

[@Meowmento]

This made me respect Tolkien even more!

[@patrickgrider8976]

First the narrators assertion that the Romans descended from the Trojans is absurd. That is nothing but a complete fair tale created by Virgil. And second, i must agree with Tolkien's dislike of the Roman empire. They get far, far too much credit for creating what many historians refer to as westetn civilization. In truth the bulk of their so-called civilization was stolen and pilleged from other peoples and cultures. Not that the Romans were the only empires doing such things but they do draw the most attention so they have become the symbol of raping other cultures.

[@alspezial2747]

Thats a large part of why i mostly side with Ulfric Stormcloak

[@comicsans1689]

Ulfric Stormweenie is a useful idiot for the Thalmor. By supporting Ulfric, you weaken Skyrim and make it an easier target for the Aldmeri Dominion to conquer. The High Elves want the Empire to be broken up and divided because it's the biggest threat to their expansionism.

[@alspezial2747]

@@comicsans1689 i think this argument was fought over in enough comment sections already.

[@adambrande]

​@@alspezial2747even if you side with Uflric for his personality and couldnt give a shit about politics, the dude is literally racist and is dogshit without his shouts. He literally got ambushed by a random imperial general who had barely adjusted to Skyrim and got lucky to be saved by a dragon that appeared out of nowhere otherwise he would have been dead. He also focuses too much on being an honorable Nord warrior than actually thinking of the future. He also hates my boy ruling Whiterun so you have to be literally Hitler to support him.

[@ramnozack]

@@comicsans1689 Empire is already a pathetic puppet state. Brutalizing their own people at the behest of foreigners, acquiescing to their every demand as they cower in fear. Disgusting. They no longer deserve to exist and it shows. Stormcloaks all the way, let something better rise from the ashes, at the very least they wont tolerate foreigners abusing and murdering them for worshipping their own gods in their own homeland, unlike the worthless empire.

[@abereid4315]

@@comicsans1689 Useful idiot? LMAO. The Aldmeri act with impunity committing atrocities against innocent local Nords for their beliefs being completely facilitated by the Empire. There's no bigger useful idiot than the Empire and people like Elisif who explicitly states her allegiance to the Thalmor. The atrocities you witness are just the start, so sure if you want the Nords to be enslaved by the Thalmor over time while the Empire sits back and does nothing and facilitates them then vote red.

[@egilskallagrimsson2941]

As if the Gauls were just peacefully minding their own business… 😂

[@DarkFurniture]

There examples in this video where you suggest the Númenóreans and then the Dúnedain are inspired by the Romans. This is clearly false. Simply replace "Rome" With "Atlantis" and then you're much more accurate. Considering the Romans "borrowed" everything that made them great from other cultures, it's clear that Tolkien very likely used practically no inspiration from the Romans when creating his fantasy world about pre-historic England. The Romans had already conquered British isles, committed genocide against the cultures there and annihilated their history...why would Tolkien use them as inspiration when trying to restore that lost culture?

[@MedievalMan]

I agree with Tolkien on all of this.

[@alexanderb5726]

Well, as big a Tolkiendil as I am, as much admiration and gratitude as I may possess for the man, on this I do disagree with him. The Empire brought order, structure and security to neighboring nations and peoples wh would've continued to wade in muck and shiver in hovels without them. I'm not a racist, rather I am a culturalist and Roman culture was superior for its time. Its imposition on the world around it, a boon for Europe and lands beyond. With the empire Europe gained infrastructure, common coinage and language, better public health and education, career paths etc, safer patrolled roads (and roads whatsoever). Of course it wasn't idyllic and the Romans comitted many an atrocity, but part of their harshness was neccessary to maintain order over such vast and often turbulent lands.

[@yassinemiri3555]

Newly found respect for the fantasy grandfather. Patriotic but not to the point of supporting expansionism and genocide. RIP JRR.T

[@neocount6397]

Without Rome, there is no Britain. All of humanity had stagnated for eons until the dawn of empire. The Celts had to be dragged into civilization in order to achieve cooperation, just like every other pre-historic society. Empire brings stability. Leave the Celts in a vacuum and their descendants never get the internet to whine about the loss.

[@iainmore3961]

As a Celt well we have good reason to hate the Roman Empire.

[@stilicho8762]

Well i envy the celts. I myself are am germanic and from germany. Of course it was the latin peoples how reached the hights of art and administration. And if course it were the germanic people who conquered the world with their technology and perfected the art of war. But for what. Today the love for their own culture is nearly dead in our cultures. The celts on the other hand love their culture the same way the latin and germanic people did 200 years ago. All celts ive met in my live had this love for their culture. And i think this comes from the brutal supression all the celts suffered in the last 2000 years.

[@Kvlt333]

Lol, If Tolkien saw England today he would have a heart attack and die on the spot

[@Prolific_Marksman]

The weak hate the strong.

[@RV56]

Sometimes what is percieved as weak contains true strenght. Isn't that the one of the main points in Lord of the Rings? And of christianity as a whole. Sure, Nietzsche would have hated Tolkien.

[@tomassmith1519]

Rome actually allowed a lot more of the culture of the people they conquerd to persist than other empire's

[@AJX-2]

Apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, the aquaducts, the roads, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

[@leonemaledetto1500]

I imagined as much. He loved Celtic myth, and the Romans were a large reason for their downfall. Also the imperialism of Rome must have seemed to ol'JRR like a force for homogeneity in the world, where he so loved the differences of peoples that inhabit it.

[@couchpotatoe91]

Exactly. Middle-Earth is in many parts united, but not homogenized. The Roman Empire on the other hand, while adopting some Greek customs earlier in its republic, mostly sought to destroy anything that was different and foreign and establish Roman superiority. Examples include the absolute annihilation of Carthage and anything related to their culture (afaik we don't know of a single Carthaginian book or author) and the assimilation of Celts into "civilized" people. Ironically though, Tolkien seems to have been unaware or ignored the fact that early Christians did the same thing, often times even worse in that they tolerated no other religion while Romans did accept foreign worship as long as you accepted the emperor as your half-deity. Given his devout catholic belief, it might be that it just never occured to him that the spread of Christianity had such a sharp cultural impact. Afair it was the Christians who basically hunted down Celtic and Nordic druids that transferred oral stories of their gods, not the Romans who relied heavily on Celtic auxilia and Gaul as a buffer province and had no problem with polytheism as long as they were included.

[@petrospetromixos6962]

@@couchpotatoe91 werent Carthagenians just barbarians, how could they have authors or books?

[@goofygrandlouis6296]

Sooo... Do you think he would be on team Galadriel rebooted ? 😅😅

[@couchpotatoe91]

@@petrospetromixos6962 Carthaginians were seafarers and traders that explored along the West African coast long before Romans did (look up the explorer Hanno from the 5th century BC). Romans actually seized a stranded Punic vessel in the 1st Punic War in the 3rd century BC and replicated it because it was just a superior ship design to theirs. Carthaginians were originally a trading colony from Phoenicia which is in nowaday Israel, but Phoenicia got eventually conquered by the Persians leaving the colony of Carthage an independent new nation. They were by no means "barbarians", the city of Carthage at one point in history was one of if not the biggest city in the mediterranean. The Phoenicians also perfected the art of translucent glass blowing. They were one of the biggest players in the Mediterranean before the Roman rise alongside the Greeks. But they were traders and no conquerors, so while they controlled land that was profitable, they didn't have a concept of Imperialism as the Romans did. They also had an oligarchy and a senate much like Romans did btw, but without dictators (ancient term) in times of crisis.

[@couchpotatoe91]

@@goofygrandlouis6296 Tolkien likely already would've problems with the action and war focus of the LotR films. I know his son Christopher did. If he wasn't already dead, I'm sure he'd wish to be after seeing the Rings of Power.

[@roosterman8601]

6:00 no one commenting on the fact that one of the greatest authors of all time known for his posh language just said "grr" in a letter to his son unironically

[@InkandFantasy]

It took me a solid 10 minutes to decide if I wanted to say that as well while reading it hahaha

[@tiagomoraes1510]

Damn thats cringe

[@LordVader1094]

it's adorable tbh :)

[@grandmasteryoda6717]

virgin: Damn thats cringe chad: it's adorable tbh :)

[@tiph3802]

​@grandmasteryoda6717 acting like virginity is shameful is cringe.

[@Tom-sd9jb]

"I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend." I remember reading somewhere the Faramir was Tolkien's cheeky self insert.

[@tau-5794]

Faramir and Frodo were both (sort of) self inserts. Faramir for being based on himself in general, and Frodo for his experiences in WW1, as an officer and Sam standing in for the common soldier he was expected to lead.

[@edgargross2789]

Thats Beren.

[@Elyseon]

Considering that Beren is even mentioned on his gravestone, definitely.

[@calonarang7378]

The best words I've heard so far!

[@tau-5794]

@@edgargross2789 Beren was the self insert, but Faramir and Frodo were both more directly inspired by his own personality.

[@gurugurumawaru7869]

Tolkien hated imperialism would be a more accurate title

[@haroldcruz8550]

Yes but that does not invite many viewers as much as the title that was used in this video

[@Parasmunt]

He definitely would not be a fan of modernity! He would be aghast at everything. Imperialism continues today in various forms more so than at any point on history. Mainly due to shared economic systems heavily interconnected but with master and servant countries, related media systems, related legal systems, related norms to do with religion.

[@yourhighness6457]

​@@Parasmunthe hated atheism too

[@Erimgard13]

He hates imperialism in general, but we very specifically have him talking about he hates Rome. So the title makes perfect sense for the content.

[@matthewgabbard6415]

And for that reason I say people suck@@haroldcruz8550

[@Procopius464]

Tolkien also said that Aragorn becoming king of the united realms was similar to what might have happened if an emperor had inherited the Byzantine Empire and recovered the ruined territories of the western Roman Empire. Edit: Since this comment is getting a lot of views I want to make a correction. Actually what Tolkien said was that the reunited realm was more like the Holy Roman Empire. He did not say it was like the Western Roman and Byzantine Roman empires coming together again, although he did compare Godor to the Byzantine Empire.

[@Phavahg]

So, Justinian then? But then, Justinian was certainly not Roman (Numenorean) by birth, although he apparently grew up speaking Latin (Westron).

[@Procopius464]

@@Phavahg It's not that he's supposed to be Justinian or any actual historical figure. Rather it's a somewhat analogous situation. It's an example of history rhyming, but not directly repeating (although this is fake history). Tolkien didn't use symbolism or allegory (which he hated), but he did take inspiration from real history, and of course IRL history does rhyme and to some extent repeat. There is no cryptic hidden meaning behind any of the characters. In one of his letters he mentioned how Gondor was similar to the Byzantine Empire, and that the unified kingdom was similar to the Roman empire reuniting. In another letter he said the Numenorians would have resembled Egyptians, although this had more to do with their architecture and burial customs than their physical appearance. The Middle Earth is supposed to be an ancient mythological age, like the Greek heroic period which all their epics are set in. The Romans, Celts, etc., are all successor populations that come after or during the 4th age. It also fits somewhat with existing systems of mythology like Germanic, Greek, and Celtic. A lot was borrowed from Celtic, in fact.

[@callnight1441]

​@Phavahg you need to be careful how you phrase certain things. Justinian, despite being born illyrian or thracian, would have considered himself just as roman as any itallic at the time

[@khorneflakes2175]

@@callnight1441 I was about to comment this, I can't recall Justinian not being considered Roman, by himself or another.

[@carlosaugustodinizgarcia3526]

Justinian was roman and spoke latin.He was just not from Italy. And neither were Constantine,Septimus Severus,Philp the Arab,Heliogabalus ,Caracalla and Diocletian.

[@JackovdaBoro]

"As I have said, I am a nationalist; England is good enough for me. I would defend England against the whole European continent. With even greater joy would I defend England against the whole British Empire." G.K. Chesterton

[@derfelcadarn8230]

Yes, absolutely, there are some fascinating parallels to be made between Tolkien & Chesterton. Well, I don't know if you've heard of him, good sir, but if you feel particularly close to Tolkien's & Chesterton's worldview, you can always check out the works of Georges Bernanos, some of which have been translated by Cluny Media. In my humble opinion: the greatest French Catholic writer of the 20th century, and one of the greatest French writers, period. A superb novelist & a magnificent polemicist & essayist. A staunch Royalist & Anarchist -- a "White Anarchist", you could say. Royalism à la française, with a special Latin zeal. A bit different from the Anglo-American conservative tradition. But, with Charles Péguy, he is to France what Tolkien & Chesterton are to England: some of the most orthodox & distinguished defenders of their nation's unique vocation before God. Cheers & greetings from France,

[@sandwichninja]

Petty nationalism is cringy and unrealistic. The only nationalism that will save the Western world is racial (as in White). Anglophiles are some of the slowest to accept this due to the emotional attachment they have for their lionized role in the absurd WWII narrative. Imagine thinking that Churchill - who ordered the carpet bombing of 160+ German villages, towns, and cities - was a hero _"fighting tyranny"._

[@ThereIsAlwaysaWay2]

Amen ♥♥♥

[@JoaoVitor-wp9zg]

@@derfelcadarn8230 Man, you look like a very cool person, judging by these authors you are suggesting, cheers!

[@joepetto9488]

If only he meant it.

[@yseson_]

No hater of nations but a hater of empire, i share these sentiments deeply.

[@thadtuiol1717]

Hope you're not American, the irony would be too great for you to bear

[@audreyharris7643]

​@@thadtuiol1717what's the irony

[@RussianOccupier190]

Nah empires are great without empires we would still be living in the Stone Age

[@danzoom]

​@@RussianOccupier190 isn't true, since the first states could barely be called empires. Indus valley civilization and sumers were independent city-states.

[@RussianOccupier190]

@@danzoom an empire is a nation that seeks to expand its territory mostly through violent means empire does not necessarily mean a huge landmass since empires can come in all sorts of sizes throughout history there have been very small empires like the Egyptian or the Hittite which are very small in comparison to other bigger better known empires like the Roman,Mongol, and British empires.

[@plenarchist]

“My political opinions lean more and more to Anarchy (philosophically understood, meaning abolition of control not whiskered men with bombs) … Government is an abstract noun meaning the art and process of governing and it should be an offence to write it with a capital G or so to refer to people. … the most improper job of any man, even saints (who at any rate were at least unwilling to take it on), is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity.” - J.R.R. Tolkien, 1943 letter to his son from The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien (1981)

[@dirtbird7415]

If he wrote that , it is very telling as to why he hated the Roman empire. The Romans , Like the Greeks before them viewed a Political career and service to the state as the highest good an individual could achieve.

[@pyotrbagration2438]

@@dirtbird7415 Hoes mad

[@davidd854]

This fits with the general idea of the ring of power as well I think.

[@zealgaming8161]

@@dirtbird7415 The Romans wanted to get closer to the gods. And in their eyes, the gods where both terrifyingly wrathful and beautifully strong. We know about the pain of chasing power. But as our once great civilization collapse into nihilism, we also now know the pain of weakness.

[@petrapetrakoliou8979]

Government is the product of the evolutionary process of war, it isn't a nicety.

[@harbl99]

Here's a thing: Karen Fonstad (of _The Atlas of Middle-Earth_ fame) worked out that the distance from Hobbiton to Minas Tirith is about the same as that from Oxford to Constantinople. Make of that what you will.

[@Procopius464]

Sounds about right.

[@tj-co9go]

Known today as Istanbul. Although I always think of this city still as Constantinople, as a historian

[@ArawnOfAnnwn]

@@tj-co9go No, it's Byzantium!

[@magniwalterbutnotwaltermag1479]

No, it's Miklagard! ​@@ArawnOfAnnwn

[@benjaminthefox]

@@tj-co9go Why'd they change it?

[@NorthernHistory]

The whole LOTR is a critique of centralized, military power bent on imperial conquest. Mordor's legions marching to the beat of one drum. He proposes that free, independent people will overthrow such a regime, and indeed they did, in history too.

[@pedrolmlkzk]

That is one of the themes yes but not the central one

[@Ravi9A]

Usa hasnt fallen yet.

[@oliversmith9200]

Back in the seventies, I saw a LOTR inspired poster in a Head Shop, in which the orc's armor looked distinctly Roman. Wish I had that old image half a century later to share.

[@dziosdzynes7663]

Not really

[@ddfelix4829]

A couple of thoughts.... Tolkien used the story of Horatius Cocles as the basis for Boromir and Faramir's stand at Osgiliath in the Appendices of TRotK. Horatius was one of the heroes of the Republic, not the Empire. Also, the stories of the rustic and independent people of Haleth in Beleriand reflect the old Roman Republican values of industriousness, family, and ethics in defense of their community. The Dunedain of Arnor lost their kingdom and their reputation, yet never gave up on protecting the Shire. I think Tolkien saw this as the true calling of power and leadership of the powerful and blessed Numenoreans.... and should have been the calling of the Romans as well. The Romans raped and pillaged many lands as the King's faction of the Numenoreans and the Black Numenoreans abused the peoples of Middle-earth. I believe Tolkien's philosophy as setting an example by being true to the truth. This is shown by the Hobbits', Gandalf's, Aragorn's, Faramir's, and Theoden's courteous behavior towards their social inferiors and guests. People will emulate superior traits through exemplary behavior, not through domination. Examples include the Ithilien Rangers' reverence and remembrance of the Valar before their meal and the highly informal behavior yet extremely polite conversations between Theoden and Merry.

[@joepetto9488]

The way the Beorians and Turin along with Androg’s men lived as “ethical outlaws” also harkens back to Romulus and Remus, their grandfather the Outlawed-King Numitor, and the king’s band of loyal retainers turned bandits.

[@bas-tn3um]

ink and history lied for views why are you acting like this is a mystery.

[@juwebles4352]

Ahh yes I'm sure no one revered Horatius cocles the second the government changed

[@bas-tn3um]

yea he was just a hero of rome for 6 centuries. youre a clown go read a history book.@@juwebles4352

[@AverageAlien]

Republic is objectively inferior to Empire/Monarchy in every single way. This is true in the modern day as well. Democracy always fails, by default. Monarchy needs a comeback

[@lloydmullins6335]

Tolkien would hate the globalism of today

[@theoriginalkyttyn7724]

Yes, he would have.

[@Wartoz]

And Trump

[@V.B.Squire]

​@@WartozTrump is the opposite to globalism and Tolkien would see through CNN propaganda,

[@V.B.Squire]

​@@WartozTrump is the opposite to globalism and Tolkien would see through CNN propaganda,

[@hyacinthlynch843]

@@Wartoz Why? Trump is a nationalist just like Tolkien.

[@evilsponge6911]

"Rome makes a desert, and calls it peace" -Tacitus

[@derfelcadarn8230]

Absolutely... Rome definitely did a lot of good; it also did a lot of evil, absolutely evil stuff, even. Well, I don't know where you stand politically, good stranger, but from a right-wing perspective (mine), it boggles the mind that so many people on the Right these days so readily worship the Roman Empire... At the peak of its power & influence, Rome was nothing more than a plutocracy which spent its time destroying indigenous European cultures & persecuting Christian souls... Such a great example for the political & spiritual regeneration of the decadent West...

[@fabrizio.guidi64]

"U.S.A. makes a desert, and calls it peace"

[@jeffersoncruz2898]

ROMA CRIOU UMA CIVILIZAÇÃO!

[@falsesatsuma]

@@fabrizio.guidi64 The Eagle still flys over Parthia, it has yet to be brought to heel.

[@Aegius]

Japan, Germany and South Korea didn’t become deserts

[@andreasmuller4172]

To love your country without being blind to its faults is an attitude I wish more people had.

[@62cky4powerthirst]

People often forget the curse of empire: you either conquer too much territory and empire dies stretched too thin to protect itself biting off more than it can chew or your empire runs out of room to expand into and collapses from within due to class contradictions.

[@briishperson4555]

"Class contradictions", not to rain on your parade, but that's a load of bollocks

[@sanguiniue]

When a nation becomes trapped by one class of people it dies. The leaders of a nation turns its attention to helping and protecting that class of people. It cant respond correctly to threats as that would damage the ruling class interests. For Rome it was the land owners , India the priests, japan the warriors , china the bureaucrats and currentley for the USA its big company's and wall street @@briishperson4555

[@DarkArtistKaiser]

@@briishperson4555 Happens more times than you think. Either be taken by the rot without or the rot within, or even both. That is always the fate of all empires.

[@62cky4powerthirst]

@@briishperson4555 Oh sorry, silly me: I forgot poor people and slaves just merrily worked and whistled and sang like Keebler Elves and were not at all angry about being poor or slaves. Yup, everyone just got along just fine. Poor people never got angry the rich in their political system usually bought it and rigged the rules against them while using endless wars to distract them. That's why there was never any slave rebellions or worker uprisings. The Romans and the French just are the two biggest examples of people who just loved their monarchs and never went through any civil wars because they all just loved each other so much. Silly me, I must've read the depressing history books instead of the happy ones!

[@briishperson4555]

@@62cky4powerthirst I don't dispute that revolts and rebellions by the working masses happened, i just don't think that they were a main cause in the collapse of the roman empire (or most empires for that matter, sans russia and france), but rather infighting amongst the ruling elite

[@zarquondam]

No one who's read Augustine's CITY OF GOD would find it "paradoxical" that a Roman Catholic would dislike the Roman Empire. The irony, however, is that the Roman Catholic church modeled itself in many ways on the structure of the Roman Empire. A hierarchical structure terminating in a supreme ruler-pontiff; the wearing of robes when most European men had switched to the "barbarian" trousers; the appropriation of terms like "diocese" and "basilica," etc.

[@ProgressIsTheOnlyEvolution]

Exactly!

[@reactiondavant-garde3391]

@JuliaHalecky Yeah the hierarchy of the church was already formed (more or less) before the Empire even legalised christianity under Constantin the Great.

[@andreamarino6010]

The Catholic Church has a Pope since God appointed St.Peter as the head and His vicar on earth. The clothes are just traditional for liturgy, they do not live with them attacched. Nowdays priests use trousers

[@Ravi9A]

Its natural for augustine readers to suffer from cognitive incoherence.

[@paulgabel8261]

Author,can you give us a link to all of the featured paintings in this video? Please, theyre all so fantastic.

[@InkandFantasy]

Of course! These are almost all the classical paintings. I’m a little under the weather but I’ll try adding the rest at some point. Thanks for watching!! 0:35 The Death of Caesar by Jean-Léon Gérôme 1:02 The Romans in their Decadence by Thomas Couture 1:22 Aeneas fleeing from Troy by Pompeo Batoni 1:55 The Sack of Rome by the Barbarians by Joseph-Noël Sylvestre 2:25 The Consummation of Empire by Thomas Cole 2:34 Destruction by Thomas Cole 2:43 The Death of Julius Caesar by Vincenzo Camuccini 3:38 A Roman Emperor: 41 AD by Sir Lawrence Alma-Tadema 3:45 Ave Caesar Morituri te Salutant by Jean-Léon Gérôme 3:56 Vercingetorix throws down his arms at the feet of Julius Caesar by Lionel-Noël Royer 5:07 A Roman Triumph by Peter Paul Rubens 5:18 The wind from Hastings by Luis Royo 6:36 God speed by Edmund Blair Leighton

[@nulltheworm]

@@InkandFantasy Do you know the one at 5:18?

[@InkandFantasy]

I added it to the original reply I made. Thank you for watching!! @@nulltheworm

[@dustinlattimore7336]

Boy, I sure can identify with being a traditionalist and patriot who absolutely abhors the current state and government of his country

[@wojtek_32]

i hope you're not blaming that current state on the immutable traits of certain groups.

[@splatterkat3838]

@@wojtek_32 I am.

[@kaiserquasar3178]

@@wojtek_32 That your name is Polish makes this even better (Poles are way more right-wing on average than westerners afaik), so good one. Truly defying the stereotype.

[@wojtek_32]

@@kaiserquasar3178 i am not polish and i have no clue what you are on about

[@wojtek_32]

@@splatterkat3838 don't forget that tolkien had a "burning private grudge" against your leader

[@catcocomics1601]

My favorite author just got a little more respectable in my eyes, seeing this.

[@MerkhVision]

This is an excellent and thoughtful video full of nuance, which is much appreciated and desperately needed in these increasingly polarized world!

[@william_santiago]

I'm totally perplexed why Tolkien hating Rome has ANYTHING to do with the Roman Catholic church. Sharing a name doesn't share a culture. New Zealanders are sometimes called "Kiwis", though they don't share any culture with the bird. Rome persecuted the Catholics for 300 years.

[@InkandFantasy]

It was mentioned because the Empire and the Church have a very intertwined history with the Pope crowing an Emperor of the Romans and claiming jurisdiction over the west through the “edict” of Constantine. It was not mentioned as a serious consideration but rather as something people may connect because of the aforementioned reasons.

[@Adventeuan]

And then the empire became nicenean. Which broke into latin and greek creeds which evolved to the catholic and orthodox church.

[@waderoberts3701]

Tolkien would be opposed to globalism today.

[@c.d.dailey8013]

Interesting. That is iffy. The approach to foreign countries can be boiled down into opposing ideas of nationalism and globalism. The video depicts Tolkien as a moderate nationalist. He has a deep love for his nation of England. However he opposes England building a big British Empire. He also showed appreciation for other European nations such as Rome and Finland. An extreme nationalist would be all into the glory of the home nation and building an empire. The main example of extreme nationalism is Fascism. The biggest example of fascism in turn is the Nazis. Tolkien would definitely not approve of what the Nazis were doing. Maybe Tolkien would have mixed feelings about globalism. He would hate for national cultures to get diluted and lost. That is a risk of cultures interacting. Yet maybe Tolkien would like globalism because it keeps national empire building at bay. I actually have the same mixed view for my country, the United States as Tolkien does for his. I am definitely on the globalist side. I like the use of diplomacy and even global government, like the UN. That is a way for countries to resolve conflict without going into war. World peace is definitely a good goal to aim for. I am also fascinated by foreign cultures.

[@arielquelme]

Who knows, Tolkien on the very description are most likely not fan of Soros esque globalization He most likely would be right wing like Boris Johnson and has monarchist boomer mentality

[@nobelissimos8719]

@@c.d.dailey8013 Local man has no idea what he is talking about and thinks being ruled by globalist elites = peace.

[@jessiemeisenheimer8675]

​@@c.d.dailey8013National Socialism and Fascism are two different ideologies. Sources: Aly, G. “Hitler’s Beneficiaries: How the Nazis Bought the German People.” Verso, 2016. (Original German 2005) Barkai, A. “Nazi Economics: Ideology, Theory, and Policy.” Yale University Press, 1990. Bel, G. "Against the mainstream: Nazi privatization in 1930s Germany." Universitat de Barcelona, PDF. Berkoff, K. "Harvest of Despair: Life and Death in Ukraine under Nazi Rule." Harvard University Press, 2004. Birchall, I. “The Spectre of Babeuf.” Haymarket Books, 2016. Bormann, M. “Hitler’s Table Talk.” Ostara Publications, 2016. Bosworth, R. “Mussolini’s Italy: Life under the Dictatorship 1915-1945.” Penguin Books, Kindle 2006. Brown, A. "How 'socialist' was National Socialism?" Kindle, 2015. Colingham, L. "The Taste of War: World War Two and the Battle for Food." Penguin UK, 2011. Dilorenzo, T. “The Problem with Socialism.” Regnery Publishing, Kindle 2016. Engels, F “Socialism: Utopian and Scientific.” Written, 1880. Progress Publishers, 1970. Engelstein, L. "Russia in Flames: War, Revolution, Civil War, 1914-1921." Oxford University Press, Kindle 2018. Evans, R. “The Coming of the Third Reich.” Penguin Books, Kindle 2004. Farrell, N. "Mussolini: A New Life." Endeavour Press Ltd, Kinde 2015. Feder, G. "The Programme of the NSDAP: The National Socialist German Worker's Party and its General Conceptions." RJG Enterprises Inc, 2003. Feder, G. "The German State on a National and Socialist Foundation." Black House Publishing LTD, 2015. Friedman, M. “Capitalism and Freedom: Fortieth Anniversary Edition.” university of Chicago, Kindle 2002. (originally published in 1962) Fustel de Coulanges, “The Ancient City: A Study of the Religion, Laws, and Institutions of Greece and Rome.” Pantianos Classics, Kindle 2017, first published in 1877.

[@sylph8005]

Define globalism

[@riverrun7061]

Good Lord, what kind of cultural state have we reached where I need a nearly 10 minute video to explain to me that a person can hold two contrasting but not necessarily contradictory ideas at the same time?

[@hebanker3372]

The culture of views, my friend.

[@leonake4194]

The state were the people that watched the video mostly wanted to actually know more about Tolkien, instead of the five second answer you seem to be looking for

[@riverrun7061]

@@leonake4194 That was a 5-second answer strung out into nearly 10 minutes. If you didn't realize that listening to it, then that's what I'm talking about.

[@riverrun7061]

@@leonake4194 No, I'm saying that the video itself was a very small amount of content bloviated out in a nearly 10 minutes. I'm saying that the actual content of the video was maybe I don't know 5 to 30 seconds worth of actual content and then just waffling around on expansions and illustrations of the same idea.

[@Mamothrept]

​@riverrun7061 The expansions were useful and interesting to me though 🌲 Hum, why be so hasty. Some things are only worth talking about if they take a long time to say, afterall. 😉

[@alkrimiy]

Tolkien's vision is seems like my ideal political stance

[@jonirischx8925]

You are a medieval catholic who believes some people have special blood, making them deserving of absolute power over others?

[@rosaeruber225]

yay

[@Mamothrept]

​@@Besthinktwice If his views about good government are based on the medieval model, than it certainly did work in real life. For many hundreds of years. I'm not sure I'd like to go back to something like that, but our current system sure is facing challenges right now. I believe we have a lot to humbly learn and incorporate from the past systems

[@talesofgore9424]

don't worry we are well on our way to cyberfeudalism. @@Besthinktwice

[@G96Saber]

@@Besthinktwice I don't you understand anything about life in the medieval era, if your immediate response is > muh chivalric romances

[@santiagorojaspiaggio]

Good video! In short words: he didn't like imperialism and tyranny.

[@isidroramos1073]

Uhmmmm... somehow I don't think Theoden, Denethor and Galadriel were elected in fair, democratic elections (or that the Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that they were righful rulers...)

[@LB-py9ig]

​@isidroramos1073 You might be surprised to learn government had far less say in your life under a Medieval king than it does now in even the most progressive western nation. No, really. It's not even close by a mile.

[@MrRawrCEO]

@@LB-py9ig That's a bit of a twist of logic. Government (if we're just counting developed democratic republics) these days is definitely far more present in our lives due to how interconnected society has become but arguing that it has more say than kings leaves out a LOT of context. Sure there's more rules and such we have to deal with in our daily lives but we also have more protections and conveniences as well. Go back to feudal times and while you could certainly live out your entire life never even noticing that you had a king, your local feudal lord could still ABSOLUTELY make their influence known. Not to mention if your king just happened to be making the rounds in your village and took interest in you for whatever reason you had far less ability to contest than you would in modern times.

[@TheJosep70]

@@LB-py9ig Maybe they didn't have the means to do it?

[@AJX-2]

​@@LB-py9igThat's why Tolkien described his political beliefs as "anarcho-monarchy"

[@beanzor]

As a roman catholic myself, I grew up reading JRR Tolkien, I have about the same view of the world.

[@tomtaylor5623]

that's what happens when you follow a religion invented by the tunnelers to destroy us. you go against your own.

[@FeelingShred]

so many "pseudo conservatives" of today make this false association of "going back to the empire"... I'm glad Tolkien makes that distinction... Traditionalism does NOT equal Imperialism

[@FeelingShred]

and migration is something that existed as Free Right of Movement since biblical times... so we could also say that migration is Traditional... and therefore this modern abomination of "mommy's inherited apartment conservatives" to be against migration, so much contradiction

[@FeelingShred]

air conditioning conservatives 🤣🤣🤣what a fucking waste... both sides are rotten

[@jeffkardosjr.3825]

​@@FeelingShredNo.

[@Heligoland360]

​@@FeelingShredSure migration of 1% per generation is traditional. The rates we've been saying of 1% per year though has only ever coincided with the downfall of civilisations, so I think you're being a bit disingenuous.

[@KaiHung-wv3ul]

@@FeelingShred I agree on the first but not necessarily the second. The migrations of history(most famous during late antiquities) caused untold death and suffering in many regions of the world, the "migrations" of the Huns, Goths, Slavs, and Magyars absolutely led to destruction of the locals. I'm not saying that the migrations of today are the same, but I hardly think bringing up historical examples help illustrate your point.

[@gergelybakos2159]

Thank you for this balanced presentation of the surprisingly fresh and healthy way of Tokien's thinking. May more people think like this!

[@Arizona-ex5yt]

I've always been uncomfortable with the Roman Empire. However, the irony is delicious. During the revolts of 68AD and 132AD, Rome destroyed a larger percentage of the Jewish population than the Germans did during World War 2-- upwards of two-third died; the Temple was destroyed and the children of Israel scattered. After crucifying its founder, they persecuted the early Christian church ruthlessly. Go look at a list of early Church fathers; it's one martyr after another. And yet, eventually, even Roman emperors bent their knees to a Jewish carpenter from Galilee. And the Eastern Empire became the great bulwark of Christian Europe for nearly 1000 years. The last Roman Emperor died bravely with his people defending Constantinople and, by extension Christian Europe itself, in 1453.

[@birgbirg111]

native religions are much better, tired of semitic religious dominance

[@RuthvenMurgatroyd]

​@@birgbirg111 Native religions are retarded which is why they lost. The one pagan religion that was close to making sense was neoplatonism but even this is enhanced by Christianity which tempers out the disgusting gnostic tendency inherent to it. Pre-talmudic Jewish values are good, the stoics and platonists were good, Aristotle was onto something, monotheism is correct. The teachings of Christ are all good. That is Christianity.

[@hjolfjor4888]

Are you a Jew? Why do you talk so jewishly?

[@hoarder1919]

most of your examples of roman influence on Tolkien are far-fetched at best and pulled out of your ass at worst. For instance, Numenor is a clear reference to Atlantis, not Rome. Other examples could be just as "Roman" as they could be from other empires of the old. Not convinced AT ALL that Roman empire had that much influence on Tolkien's work.

[@silverchairsg]

Tolkien: I don't like the Roman Empire Time Traveller: Professor, I brought you this game called Rome Total War. Have a go at it. Why not let your buddy Jack play it too? 3 hours later Tolkien: And as Frodo slashed the back of the last of the retreating orcs with Sting, he beckoned to the Men-at-arms of Gondor behind him and bellowed: "The enemy army flees! Pursue them! Drive them from the battlefield!" CS Lewis: The Witch's Minotaur general clove Mr Tumnus's head from his shoulders with one mighty blow. All around him, Peter Pevensie and the rest of the Narnian army were fleeing. He raised his head and let out a roar that echoed above the din of the battlefield: "The enemy warlord is running like a frightened goat. Chase him! Goats make good eating!"

[@LS-xs7sg]

God / the Jews who wrote the bible don’t particularly like empires at all. They preferred nations

[@Tomodachi91ve]

So, he would of hate USA and Israel with passion.

[@MWhaleK]

As someone who is DEEPLY interested in the Ancient Celts and identifies somewhat with them? I sympathize with anyone who is Anti-Imperial Rome.

[@birgbirg111]

imagine simping for an empire

[@adambrande]

lol the very same celts who started living like Romans and began fighting for them? You can't identify to a celt unless you go out of the street naked swinging your "sword"

[@jayargee492]

What the fuck do you mean you "somewhat identify" with the *Ancient Celts?*

[@hebanker3372]

@@birgbirg111 Imagine simping for long lost tribe.

[@KAZVorpal]

Hating the evildoing of one's own political class is part of loving one's nation. That's how so many Americans think of the evils imposed overseas in our name.

[@thepatriarchy8443]

Not truly in our name, that's just what our government tells us. It's in reality for corporations and NGOs.

[@KAZVorpal]

@@thepatriarchy8443 I agree completely, except I said in our name in the sense that they go out into the world and commit evil under the pretense that WE are doing it. They are the OFFICIAL face of Americans. Oh, and one other caveat: They aren't doing it in the name of those corporations, they OWN those corporations. The political class created corporate law specifically so they could monopolize capital and legally plunder society.

[@Donerci_Pikacu_Usta]

Yes! I guessed it correctly! He hates it because Rome destroyed many cultures

[@casslane3932]

i grew up with both english and irish culture i even met my greatgrandmother who was a staunch imperialist and in many ways still believed in the inferiority of the irish yet she had a half irish grandson and didnt say a word but she looked at all the "other" cultures and peoples who were once beneath her as a threat. history is both simple and complicated and i found both english culture and irish culture had its own merits and i love both yet never could ignore the fact they have always been so interconnected but also how not so long ago me being half irish would have looked very different than now. personaly especialy in the isles we all have way more in common than not and there is somthing in every culture you can find to love and respect so i wish we could all see it and learn perhaps from eachother and love rather than hate. very idealistic but i see tolkiens opion and agree

[@gregdaweson4657]

Ggrandma was fucking based

[@pattonramming1988]

She's right look what happened in recent years

[@Yahya-sb1yo]

​@@pattonramming1988"Imperialism" is what brought the things youre talking about

[@pattonramming1988]

@@Yahya-sb1yo imperialism brought the weakness of Britain?

[@Yahya-sb1yo]

@@pattonramming1988 Directly or indirectly, yes

[@raphaelledesma9393]

The Fall of the Western Roman Empire is why Europe is a kaleidoscope of different cultures and kingdoms and not simply a Roman outpost. Rome had its day but something beautiful sprung from its ashes.

[@Diogolindir]

But argueably Rome was an already a multicultural empire which practiced syncretism and that itself created new cultures in each province. The Romans were not a rigid uniform culture. Sure they had structures but usually according to their basic laws but Egypt for instance had a beautiful greco-roman-egyptian culture, temples for Epona in Gaul had a Greco-Roman personality to it, new gods and goddesses were adopted, fashion changed according to the mixture of roman culture and their locals. So I partially disagree for I do believe post Roman cultures were very beautiful as well.

[@GAMER123GAMING]

@@Diogolindir "tempes for Epona in Gaul had a Greco-Roman personality to it" How... diverse.

[@Diogolindir]

@@GAMER123GAMING I fail to see your point.

[@heraadrian7764]

As beautifull as sanguine roses blooming on blood soaked earth.

[@chalupabatman1803]

I think it would be better to explain it as “The fall of the western empire is why Europe is the current kaleidoscope of different peoples and cultures. Romans did not simply move into areas and replace the people who were there(though they obviously did that also). They ruled a very very very cosmopolitan empire with many different people and cultures. It just explains how it became this certain kaleidoscope, but it was going to be a thing no matter what

[@Sageofthenation]

Man, I wonder how he would have admired the 'cultural enrichment' of his homeland as it is now.

[@trollking99]

The Haradrim and Easterlings.

[@curious_one1156]

there is nowhere safe from the dark lord. He lies in wait.

[@basedkaiser5352]

​@@trollking99Haradr had noble qualities at least.

[@Hydra-dr8hd]

*Why Tolkien hated the Roman Empire:* Tolkien was a Catholic and all Catholics hate the roman empire no matter what some atheist or something says they don't speak for the Catholics The Catholics hate the Roman empire because of 2 main reasons: Romans were polytheists and like the muslims, Catholics are fanatically against polytheism. No excuses. Main reason number 2: them polytheist romans threw early Catholics in arenas with wild animals next to so many other forms of torturer and murder This 7 minute video is not needed when you can explain the reality in seconds

[@overlord5068]

Exactly

[@seyer31]

its not hard to see mordor as the roman empire taking over barbarian and free celtic and germanic peoples

[@Brubarov]

I understand him a lot better thanks to you, but also because I totally share his perspective. Especially in our crazy world.

[@boxylemons7961]

the more I read about JRR Tolkien the more I admire him as a person.

[@MichaelStanton26]

He was more brilliant than most know

[@mercster]

Tolkien would be aghast at the current state of the world.

[@GothicXlightning]

ill never get it why he was into Roman Catholicism to began with????? but i can relate Once again with our adorable Oldman JRR.TOLKIEN to hell with the old rotten and corrupted Empire they all fell with the weight of their own accursed Malice as all Evil shall

[@overlord5068]

"MUHHHHHHH I can't understand why he was a hardcore Catholic MUHHHHHHH"

[@GothicXlightning]

Have anyone ever told you GO AND FFFKKKKCCCCCC YOURSELF ?

[@MisterPeckingOrder]

Tolkien had the most based takes on Rome ever. Not surprised.

[@Chewbacca2000]

That was really internesting, thanks man!! Tolkien also related Númenor to Plato's Atlantis, in the Silmarillion after Númenor is destroyed the different names of it are mentioned, one of them is "Atalanta" or something like that, then it describes that the refugees of Númenor/"Atalanta" go on to start civilization elsewhere and "build pyramids" or something it says, which would be a reference to Egypt. I think I'm right with all that haha, you should check it out though, very interesting. He said he had an "Atlantis complex" too; "In a 1955 letter to his friend W. H. Auden, J.R.R. Tolkien confessed, "I have what some might call an Atlantis complex. ... I mean the terrible recurrent dream (beginning with memory) of the Great Wave, towering up, and coming in ineluctably over the trees and green fields" (Letters 163). He was to insist on the significance of this dream again in various correspondences in 1956, 1964, and 1965; over the course of those letters, he refers to his "Atlantis complex" as a dream, vision, myth, legend, and-fascinatingly-dim memory (213, 232, 347, 361). In several of these he also mentions that, though he does not know if either of his parents was subject to the Atlantis haunting, his son Michael "inherited" the dream, and that he (J.R.R.T.) "bequeathed it to Faramir" by some undefined process of ideational inheritance.1 The Great Wave appeared in multiple other places as it developed into an Atlantean myth concerning the island of Númenor. Gradually, the narrative became entwined with other concerns: a pseudo-fall, the Noachian escape of Elendil and his sons to Middle-earth, an attempt at psychological science-fiction, and of course even deeper issues of trauma, reincarnation, time travel, and communication with other living beings." muse.jhu.edu/article/738148/summary

[@PulsatingShadow]

His haplogroup (it's documented, you can look it up) indicates that his ancestors may have survived the sinking of Doggerland, which may have been the location of Atlantis. Perhaps the dreams of drowning are genetic memories.

[@nicechock]

You guys dont know the story is based on the Bible? Not on any roman empire. This video author is completely clueless.

[@AlejandroM9623]

The beacons are way more ancient than the Rome empire, you can find the system in classic greek literature about the Trojan war.

[@elia0162]

i guess tolkkien was't good at history because romans actually integrated the cultures of the conquered,onee example is that they made offering for tthe enemyy gods to join their ppantheon

[@davidmurray9193]

He would be disgusted on how Great Britain has had it's heart a soul ripped apart now and it's morals and order destroyed

[@crusader2112]

Great video. I can sympathize with Tolkien’s beliefs. I too have localist/regionalist beliefs as well. Sincerely, From an American

[@ChatGPT_ChatbotTest]

Love from a german internationalist!

[@kamikazes03]

Make Albion Great Again!

[@jacklaurentius6130]

@@ChatGPT_ChatbotTest😂😂😂

[@ergob3907]

@@ChatGPT_ChatbotTest These bots are going full nazi. So it begins...

[@nantenknight83]

The irony!

[@darylwilliams7883]

Tolkien recognized I think that the Roman Empire was based on incredible privilege of a few based on incredible suffering for the rest. And it was the suffering he hated.

[@brunoactis1104]

The medieval era was not much better in that regard. In fact, i'd image it was worse.

[@ordinaryrat]

Roman Empire was actually very well rounded socially compared to the middle ages.

[@ordinaryrat]

@@Brunel1859 The local conquered populations were often better off under Roman rule so its more just customs and traditions

[@Kidneyjoe42]

That was everywhere, though. The life of a Gaulish peasant was not appreciably different under Roman rule. In fact, being conquered by Rome almost certainly improved the quality of life of the average Briton. If anything, Roman rule was more egalitarian than the feudal monarchies that followed. Many men of modest birth managed to rise through the Roman military to positions of power, with some like Justinian even becoming emperor. The Roman Empire wasn't all butterflies and rainbows, but demonizing it while idealizing medieval Europe like Tolkien did makes no sense at all.

[@2macki332]

Tolkien would have hated todays WEF :D

[@DarkKing009]

Tolkien hated Empires simple as that includes his British Empire and the Roman Empire.

[@jacobzanardi1930]

Understanding that he was a devout Catholic makes this not paradoxical at all. The morality of the Roman Empire was entirely opposite of Christian morality.

[@RussianOccupier190]

How so? Because it seemed to expand and become more powerful is that how Roman morality was entirely opposite to Christianity?

[@saladinbob]

There's an irony to disliking the concept of Britishness, seeing it as something artificial because what became England was once a series of petty Kingdoms such as Mercia, Dummonia, Northumberland,. Before that it was a collection of localised tribe. You can't have it both ways, if he preferred localisation and disliked the idea of Empire, then where does it end? The Nation? The country? The Tribe? Or the Family? Everything is made up of a collection of constituent parts, and where I to have been alive at the time I would have pointed this contradiction out to him.

[@masdav94]

It ends with the nation - the ways and traditions of a people. It is what Western nations are willfully doing to themselves under the name of progress.

[@nicolas-hg9fn]

Maybe he only hated the fast process of globalization but liked the things he simply grew up with

[@computer1-hc1qn]

There is nothing rational about nostalgic, traditionalist lamentation of that which no longer is. Do not look for logical consistency behind it. Rationality and logic is, after all, not all there is to mankind; Far from it. One is either sympathetic or unsympathetic towards this traditionalist lamentation; reason is not relevant. It is the human, animalistic element in you that colours your view on it.

[@quigglyz]

Basically, the Roman Empire represents globohomo. And Tolkien hated globohomo.

[@francisroberts6947]

Tolkien - so reactionary that he was a progressive anti imperialist

[@tomassmith1519]

Ironic. If the Romans would have never conquerd Britain, Tolkien would never have been able to write his books

[@jonathanbowers8964]

I am pretty sure that the Britons (and the Anglo Saxons) would have eventually developed a writing system, just through trade with the broader world. Indeed, the Irish and the Germanic peoples already began developing their own "runic" writing systems during the late Roman period. If the Roman Empire stopped at the English Channel, the Britons would likely have been semi-literate by the 500s (which was around the time the Norwegians were frequently using runic writing) which is not far off from the original time line. TL;DR literacy was coming to Britain. Be it by trade or by sword, Britain was going to adopt writing around the end of the Classical period.

[@tomassmith1519]

@@jonathanbowers8964 eh... it depends on several factors. But I also agree that the influence from outside would have made it faster (especially influence from the Roman Empire still tho). However, it is unlikely that without Rome's conquests in all the regions, things would advance half as much

[@DillionMatt]

@@tomassmith1519 Germany did. Really does take just some luck and some good local leaders to build a nation. Macedonia was a backwater before Alexander dad Philip

[@DillionMatt]

@@tomassmith1519 also Scandinavia later got really developed. No Rome there

[@tomassmith1519]

@@DillionMatt Absolutely Roman influence in Skandinavia. Their military might and seatraveller skills during the viking age where mostly not, of course. But the later development came from integration and adoption of culture and knowledge of the christian world, all of which where shaped and higly influences by the Roman Empire

[@andrzejkopalnia]

He would have hated the modern day US.

[@Neo2266.]

I'm glad that even Tolkien thought about the Roman empire at least once per day

[@FreedomLovingLoyalistOfficial]

Thats funny because Tolkien would accept a CBE, and incase you don't know what that stands for it's ''The Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire.'' So you could call him a bit of a Hypocrite. 🤣

[@georgethompson1460]

Eh I think your exaggerating the similarity between Numenor and rome, especially as Numenor was rapidly destroyed at the height of its hubris like Atlantis. The downfall of numenor is even linguistically similar to atlantis in the elvish tongue.

[@piperjj4486]

Localist seemed to be the best way to describe him. It's more nuanced than he just hated Imperialism.

[@glishev]

The strange thing about Tolkien hating 'empire' as an idea is that he was born and lived most of his life in the British one. He never hated being an Englishman (of course he didn't). He was rather sad about the Anglican Communion, being a Catholic. He had nothing against royalties coming from copies of "The Lord of the Rings" sold in the original English language in far countries like Canada, New Zealand, Australia, etc. He even had nothing against his own invented realm of Gondor which is described like a former empire in Appendix A of LotR. And yet, he hated the notion of 'empire'. One of the man's many internal tensions, I guess.

[@ashnazgthrakatulukii1165]

More I learn about Tolkien, more I think he was not a smart guy after all.

[@jextra1313]

He's just an idealist, not including cynical truths in his stories, either intentionally or unintentionally. He was obviously still smart.

[@WackyIraqi777]

Have you ever considered maybe it is yourself who is not smart?

[@shadetree4679]

Really enjoyed this video its a very interesting and detailed take on Tolkien's life and beliefs.