The ORIGIN of Rome has a SECRET

[@shanegooding4839]

Also interesting how often babies that are destined to grow up to be heroes in these stories are cast into rivers/water to drown: Moses, Lugh, Perseus, Taliesin, Sargon, etc

[@radagast7200]

The Ninja Turtles...

[@mochacola72]

I was thinking the same thing.

[@johnsteiner3417]

Rivers and other culturally significant bodies of water are often associated with the spirit realm. So, being cast into a river is like saying the baby's fate is in the hands of the divines.

[@midnightwanderer1734]

Yo is there any hero in folklore, myth, and religion that doesn’t suffer cause we already got Yeshua, Hercules, Joan of Arc, Perseus, and various other’s all around the world. Of course in the end they all achieve ascension/divinity but still… 😑

[@johnsteiner3417]

@@midnightwanderer1734 The Hero Twins in Navajo and Hopi tradition.

[@king_halcyon]

You should also discuss more Persian/Iranian/Avestan mythology, a very underrated cadet branch of Indo-European mythology. Higher spirits like Ahura Mazda, Haurvatat, Ameretat, Anahita, mortals like Gayomart, Yamshed, Manush-cithra, Thraetaona, and lower (evil) spirits like Angra Mainyu all have fascinating stories. The whole topic of the origin of Zoroastrianism and Iranian folk myths are very arcane. Heck, the birthplace of Zarathustra (Zoroaster) and the Avestan-speaking land is also disputed, though I support the theory that it was in central Khorasan (Haraiva), as it impacted both the ancient Pathan (Pashto) and West Iranian languages.

[@Crecganford]

I will discuss Zoroastrianism soon, watch this space.

[@_S0urR0ses_]

Yes it appears Zoroastrianism has been ignored by design or could be because it’s hard to find any concrete evidence of the stories

[@KingoftheJiangl]

​@@Crecganfordso cool!

[@jasonmuniz-contreras6630]

Iranics and their religious revolution overturned a lot of the original PIE religion/mythology.

[@NIDELLANEUM]

Loved the reference to the online trend of asking how often do people think about the Roman Empire, at the beginning

[@pattheplanter]

Not many people think about the Roman Kingdom.

[@marcobelli6856]

@@pattheplanter Not enough people think about the Roman Republic (or they do but they Call it Roman Empire hahahaha)

[@gaz8891]

This is great. It makes SO much sense to relate the Jesus story to the Romulus myth ! We know that none of these elements (virgin birth, son of a god etc.) were part of Jesus' original life-story, but this totally explains why these specific elements became established early on and why Jesus became such a cult figure, his celebrity outshining his actual teachings. The whole region was in the Roman Empire and it was leading Romans who championed this new religion and made it a tool of state. They had to make Jesus' story both authoritative and relatable to their intended audience. Clearly their marketing department did a very good job, as no one spotted the rouse for 2000 years! Well done!

[@shanegooding4839]

There is a contradictory version in which Remus founded a city called Remuria and outlives Romulus. This is surely a memory of Remus being the original founder of Rome.

[@svena.halstensen5699]

not familiar with any tradition that suggest Remus outlived Romulus. but there are mentions of Remoria/Rhemonia, being the place where Remus saw the sign of six birds landing and where he supposedly later were buried after being killed by Romulus. it is suggested that the location were somewhere on the Aventine hill. being outside Romulus city limits it could be considered a rival city (or rather a camp outside Romulus village).

[@shanegooding4839]

@@svena.halstensen5699 A later Roman work called the Origo gentis Romanae states that Remuria was built on the Aventine hill while Rome was built on the Capitoline. It also records that the author Egnatius in his first book says that Remus was not killed and outlived Romulus.

[@megara4068]

​@svena.halstensen5699 I'm sure you know this, but in case someone stumbles upon your comment and does not---Quirinus is relevant as part of a trinity of Deities (Jupiter, Mars, Quirinus) that appear in opposition with the Aventine trinity (Liber, Libera, Ceres)... which is fun as the Aventine Deities are associated with the plebs (and so a play of a single leader-era, Jupiter, Quirinus, and Fiesty Daddy Mars vs. Roman senate-era, plebians, Liber, Liberia...). [Edit: just to include these 6 deities are associated with Aventine and Capitoline hills.]

[@elainebelzDetroit]

@@megara4068 For clarification, do you mean triad? (The word "trinity" was coined by Tertullian to describe the Christian concept of God as 3 persons united in one being - "tri"+"unity". I'm curious if there was any kind of sense of that kind of unity among the groupings of three you mention.)

[@megara4068]

​@@elainebelzDetroitMy intentions when I used the term "trinity" was to be silly, but you're right. Two out of a few of the triads. There are important relationships in those triads, but it's not anyting like Christian trinitarianism dogma. I know all too well about trinitarianism as I was raised in a church and family who weaponized their fundamentalist evangelical "love" in many kinds of child abuse---things that just mentioning them might make KZbin pissed. I shouldn't have used the term "trinity" because 1. it may cause confusion despite the intention of contextualizing these two particular triads, hills, and twins; and 2. it's not fair to the deities to use Christian terminology while referring to them.

[@GrantCelley]

Another motif in the story I remember from school is that Rhea Silvia(the twin's mother) put Romulus and Remus in a basket on a river to be delivered safety. This motif is also used in Moses in Exodus.

[@corrinflakes9659]

“Now that does that sound like a familiar story” (shows Jesus). My dude, half that was Moses.

[@safi164]

Yes you are absolutely right I have also wondered exactly the same thing.. The idea of a messiah comes from Indo-European religions... Not only only among European and Persian religions but even we have messiah like figures and in Indian religion i.e Kalki Avatar and even in Buddhism i.e Maitreya Buddha. Meanwhile if observe the early Ancient near eastern religions the idea of not only a savior like figure is missing but also the concept of eschatology is also missing... There is no such concept of the end of world in Mesopotamian religions, Egyptian religions or even the early Hebrew religion. We only find the ideas about the end of the universe and savior messiah like figures around the time of Classical Antiquity. I have searched so much but there is literally no end of the world myth in Sumerian or any Mesopotamian religions... The closest I have come across is probably Tammuz or Dumuzid which is probably a messiah like figure kind of but it has many of the traits of a typical messiah like figure missing.. Though he later on by the late antiquity and what survived of its cult by the medieval era he did become into one but it was most likely because of the influence of Hellenism and Persian religions.

[@dannyhussain5489]

An insightful point

[@zaco-km3su]

It's very interesting that the name Romulus was created after the name of Rome. It does make sense though. The idea that he was taken out by senators and after that his body was quartered and thrown in the river to be carried away might have started as a cynical view of what happened to Romulus. The average Roman didn't like the Senate (the gathering of the elders.....because that's what it means) too much for a long time because they were wealthy and had power....and were corrupt or abused their power.

[@stephaniecrease4287]

You forgot your drum beat intro 😢 love the intro helps get settled in for a good spot with a cup of tea I hope you decide to keep the drumming intro ❤❤❤

[@MatthewCaunsfield]

Love a bit of Roman myth on a rainy afternoon like this! 😁👍

[@Stoneworks]

Alright I've sipped my tea (hard whiskey) and clicked the like button (warrior Patreon tier), let's learn about older versions of the Romulus and Remus myth.

[@Crecganford]

I saw, thank you and welcome. I’ll be on Patreon later today and send you a message.

[@christoffernordholm5818]

Interesting how they reused the mythology of the quartering of Romulus by the senate in the kind of quartering of Julius Caesar by the senate when establishing the roman empire

[@goshlike76]

Who knew that such an obscure myth would hide such treasures. Absolutely fascinating research.

[@MrJohnMurdoch]

I'd just picked up a cup of tea when I clicked on this. How appropriate.

[@pillmuncher67]

I always thought the story of Romulus and Remus could be a recall of the conflict between early sedentary farmers and nomadic herdsmen who ignored the fences set up by the farmers. Compare the biblical story where Cain the farmer kills Abel the shepherd. But I'm no scholar.

[@bobSeigar]

Sounds so much like the Phœnix mythos from Egypt, Persia and Phoenicia. Thanks again Jon!

[@corsaircaruso471]

This is my first visit to this channel, and I’m subscribing right now. This is fascinating and I can’t wait to see what else you cover.

[@Crecganford]

I hope you enjoy my content.

[@duivelgeen]

EXTREMELY INSIGHTFULL AND INTERESTING!

[@christopherkrupa580]

by the sheer fact this channel only has 167k subscribers is just shocking.

[@andyventures6574]

My mind was immediately drawn to the bronze age twin statues with horned helmets that turn up all over Europe and parts of the levant . Now I'm supposed to be working but am thinking of the parallels between the Christian myth and this one more and more, wondering more about the authorship of the gospels and who their influences/ audience were .

[@corsaircaruso471]

Ooooh, they’re the sacred twins, one of which is sacrificed and becomes the ruler of the underworld, and the other becomes the first priest, which might be a justification for the king also being the chief priest and augur.

[@eligoldman9200]

Actually a lot of the Latins had different founding myths. This is because the latins came to that area and founded its first cities. It’s quite possible they carried ancient mythology in their oldest historical myth. Alba longa is just another Latin city state that may have had its own founding myths.

[@gaz8891]

That's interesting. I wonder if any of these myths ally with the reasoning set out in the great book, "The Baltic Origins of Homers Epic Tales." This offers a specific place of origin for the Romans and also an explanation for the term 'Quirites,' the name for the citizens of ancient Rome (as distinct from the soldiers). The book makes the case that the ancient Greeks and Trojans (the Roman ancesters) were actually from northern Europe (it was much warmer during the Bronze Ages). Intriguingly, there's a lot of commonality between the place-names and mythology of the Romans and the eastern Baltic region. In particular, the Lithuanian language and names have significant similarities with Latin, eg. Lithuanian villages called Romainias and Romanavas. And in Lithuania is the region of Kurland or ancient Curetia. The people of this region of Curetia were probably the Curetes people in Homer's epics and in the Greek legend of Zeus' birth, and so they are probably the origin of the Quirites of the later Roman world in the Mediterranean (when the climate cooled, the tribes migrated to southern Europe).

[@neilw990]

Excellent video, it would be interesting to hear your take on Aeneas as an alternative founder of Rome. Keep up the good work.

[@gaz8891]

Yes, I was wondering about this. I'm glad that he started with the Roman origins being the Trojan War (both the Romans and the Ancient British claimed to be Trojans, by the way). But that war was 100s of years before the presumed date of Romulus & Remus (c.1,600BC or 1,300BC, depending on your sources). So plenty of time for an even earlier history preceding the twins. I suspect both Aeneas and the twins played their part at different times.

[@FelixFortunaRex]

Interesting. Very interesting. Within video is a part about Romulus and the taking of Sabine women. Made me think of marriage custom of carrying the bride of the doorstep. The man grabs women and carry her into his house sounds like same custom or whatever one would call that. ❤

[@gaz8891]

Oh very interesting idea !!

[@DrakeMonroe]

Everyone thinks cultures are stealing these stories from each other but can't fathom that this is a repeating phenomenon in almost all cultures over different periods of time.

[@Bjorn_Algiz]

Intrigued I am! 😮 love these ancient myths.

[@ajkaajka2512]

I am going through your videos. I love them. I love the history about the myths and I also love listening to you telling us those myths, the more myths the better. Maybe you could do Slavic mythology, Zoroastrian, Angels and their origin, Heracles and his 12 labors. If you covered any of these already, never mind, I will eventualy find them in your videos. Thanks for all the work you put into these.

[@Crecganford]

I will add these to my To Do list, and thank you for your kind words.

[@AFNacapella]

I wonder how many stories told during firewatch in prehistoric times got lost. must be countless inspired by stars, flora, fauna, geography, current social situations and remembered development milestones and big events... re-telling old ones, creating new ones to pass the time... I'd love to have a timemachine (and universal translator) to listen in.

[@cyankirkpatrick5194]

I remember a old movie in the 70's about these twins and how they came to be, but what I couldn't understand is why they had short hair and clean cut I guess the censors of the time was strict, even as a kid the ancient people weren't all clean cut and shaven unless you were a noble, that was my mindset.

[@gaz8891]

But Romulus and Remus WERE of noble birth. Almost all the heros of the ancient myths were from the ruling elites, typically sons of kings.

[@energiasrenovablesdevenezu6919]

If you consider that "Romulus" can only be translated from Etruscan for "from Rome/out of Rome", and "Remus" as the "rower" or "sailor" (from Latin), then the killing of the brother Remus by the city's founder Romulus , is not only a legend, but also an act of overcoming old traditions and a new beginning in foreign lands, nearly with the force of a new religion overrunning a stranded society, gifting hope and motivation. Only the founding saga allowed the Romans to be Romans, even to be able to use a foreign language (that of Italic Lazio, mixed with a few smatterings of Etruscan and Greek) as their own, instead of being just one more Phenician mining or trading outpost. Adopting the rival's, the enemy's, the Greek's beliefs, not without distortioning them, could make it easier to cut ties with one's own Phoenician-Persian past. As Phenicians or Persians, they would have been received with a strong distrust. Most likely, they even had learned some third italic language, before penetrating the Tiber valley, setting up their port and fort, and then starting to overtake their neighbors city-states plus farmlands. And when survivors of a declining culture emigrate, they only have two options: to look for where they are needed as servants, or to conquer where they can replace the old masters. Romulus' successors were certainly not descended from willing economic migrants. Rather, it was an association of families of the former Old Persian elite who, following in the footsteps of Carthage's success, had decided, after the collapse of their old empire (Archaemenids), to lay the foundation for a new empire in the center of the Mediterranean, as a rival to their Punic model , to lay.

[@parrotshootist3004]

Nice observation.

[@henridelagardere264]

Over the years, I've come across so many precursors of Jesus and myths older than the Christian resurrection myths that I'd very like to read a book on all these proto-Jesuses. Is there a good one you'd recommend?

[@Crecganford]

Let me have a think about that as there isn't one that springs to mind off the top of my head.

[@henridelagardere264]

@@Crecganford "One that springs to mind off the top of your head", that would be a nice example of _cephalogenesis,_ Zeus would agree ;-). Thank you for all your intriguing - and *gentle* - videos! So educative!

[@henridelagardere264]

@@Crecganford The birth of Remus & Romulus was actually the very first text I had to translate when still a schoolboy.

[@johnsteiner3417]

You can look up a 4-hour interview called The Power of Myth with Joseph Campbell interviewed by Bill Moyers.

[@henridelagardere264]

@@johnsteiner3417 Thank you! I've already added the videos to our YT library. Have a nice weekend!

[@robertaugustoriva4271]

Jon, truly excellent video - another bright star in a luminous constellation of work. Augusto

[@drfill9210]

The gospel of John was deliberately written with Roman cultural references. It was designed to appeal to a Roman audience as well as a Jewish one. To that end, certain parts of jesus" life was told in a way that mirrors some of the extant stories. Tbh i heard more of Moses, Cain and Abel and Elijah in that particular myth anyway... far older stories.

[@MythVisionPodcast]

This is amazing Jon! 👏 ❤

[@Crecganford]

Thank you! Your words are all always appreciated

[@chocoquark4831]

I remember learning this story in school. We had a discussion with our teacher, if this was the original christian story. Later we read story of sol invictus. It was very similar.

[@iannmiller]

More creganford!! Nice video, thanks

[@HeAndrRoiz]

There's also the possibility that the name Romulus is simply "Roma + -ulus" literally meaning "Little Rome"

[@marjoe32]

I connected most with the Romulus and Remus statue at the Louvers

[@paulfletcher-yi2ji]

Who would,nt to be raised by a wolf if you're a orphan. I LOVE WOLVES ❤

[@nicholasdominic2825]

You have a great narrators voice, very peaceful to listen to. I have been studying more on the indo European culture and language since recently, also the yamnyiya tribes ,we have so much influence from them from the accents being close to Greek and Latin and of course other places but the mythology that comes from the near east (Persia/turkey) and north India, it really puts the migration into perspective for me as well as making the puzzle easier to put together. Thanks for the great story telling. 🫡

[@Crecganford]

And thank you for your kind words.

[@gaz8891]

Have you read the fantastic book, "The Baltic origins of Homers Epic Tales" ? This argues that the Trojan War - and a cooling climate - was the major event that triggered the dispersal of Indo-European people, c.1,600BC. Which also means that we have a great insight into the culture of the Indo-Europeans in Homer's tales of this period.

[@mythopia1]

Excellent video as always Jon, sharing it now. 🤘

[@Crecganford]

Thanks Simon!

[@DuanTorruellas]

You just made me think about a ink drawing by divinci titled , The rape of the Sabine woman .

[@MythVisionPodcast]

My upcoming video is in alignment of the Romulus myth & Heracles influencing the Jesus myth in the NT. I love this video brother.

[@Crecganford]

I'm looking forward to it Derek!

[@demoncore5342]

Wow, newer knew of Romulus straight up ascending among gods like this. And yes, it sounds like the story of Jesus, and Moses, and to be frank in some parts as Cain or even Gilgamesh...

[@oxvendivil442]

Ancient Aliens! the story of Romulus and Remus fits in with the greater narrative/lore of the Ancient Aliens, the stories were changed and modified overtime naturally or deliberately for political reasons but bits of truth can still be discerned from it.

[@richardokeefe7410]

With what serene confidence he presents his meta-myths!

[@davidmedlin8562]

I've had a recent thought that the twins were Neanderthal and man

[@king_halcyon]

That's a bit of a stretch.

[@GizzyDillespee]

Remus: I'm not THAT old!

[@Pados_music]

Impressive thought. Too old of course but we can never be absolutely sure.

[@MariaSole773]

Fantastic video. You unveil some hidden paths of our common story through a precise linguistic analysis that makes lot of sense. Those peoples were also connected to the god Saturn who fled to Latium, laetere means to hide, probably they were descendants from prediluvian times.

[@gaz8891]

Well, the widely understood origin is that they migrated to Latium from Troy. The Trojan War was a real watershed moment. After the War, many of the tribes involved dispersed in different directions to re-settle and start their cultures anew, including those who became the Romans, the Ancient British and the Myceneans.

[@gaz8891]

The Trojan War is thought to have been c.1,600BC (or 1,300BC, depending on your source), which is well after the presumed date of the Flood.

[@stevenleslie8557]

You've got a good speaking voice and i like your British accent.

[@johnsteiner3417]

What has often amused me is when christians claim that other virgin-born sons of gods and their stories are somehow derived from Jesus' story- despite being older as both validating Jesus as the original version and then simultaneously claiming the devil laid these older myths in place to lead people astray in advance of Jesus' story. Instead, christianity simply used the same tropes and themes of other mythologies, but was later in coming to do so. Though, it would've been an interesting twist in history to have the city named Reme/Rheme and then referred to as the Reman Empire.

[@darthex0]

At face value, it is classic revisionism. They're all compilations in one way or another, like hit songs...

[@robo5013]

Ah, the old Devil made me do it excuse.

[@pattheplanter]

I always prefer to think that the Jesus story is original, but he was a Virgo and the story got confused with the older, cooler versions.

[@granockss9548]

I See what you did there. "CYRODIIL HAS COME" Maybe elder scrolls is an Alternate Universe. And Aldmeris is at home.

[@astrol4b]

Ummh the version they taught me in school doesn't include romulus building a wall, but just tracing the sacred limits of the city, and remus just jumped over them.

[@Crecganford]

Yes, there are many versions of the story.

[@erokul]

Amazing video as always, thank you! I would love to see a brief parallels of the myth evolution with the material findings and archaeology when talking about myths like this. It might help to give more context and understanding how the development happens. Also, the creation of senate itself is also a fascinating topic (also present in the myth). Romulus creates the senate which then plots to kill him (or kills him). I wonder what ancient beliefs and rituals led to the creation of the senate, and if that plot of the senate killing the Romulus is an echo of the motif of rebelling against the god?

[@robo5013]

There has been recent thought based on archaeology that the Roman Senate, before the creation of the city when the Latin people that would become the Romans, was a body of the clan elders that came together for religious and governmental purposes. The hypothesis is that this body would contract with a warlord, probably a leader of a pastoral tribe as they were the most warlike unlike more peaceful farmers, to be their king. The word Rex doesn't really translate to king in the modern sense of the word as an absolute monarch but means warchief. Just as the Celtic and Germanic tribes would elect one of their chiefs to be king when faced with a national emergency like outside invasion (or they were just feeling froggy and wanted to crack some skulls) but when the emergency (or raids) was over he would revert back to being just the leader of his clan. This could account for the reason that the kings were sometimes Latin and sometimes not, even Etruscan. Then once Rome was built and they had gained enough power to stand on their own the Senate expelled the kings as they had begun to pass their power on to their descendants against the wishes of the Senate, denying them the right to elect a new one in their place. I can't point you to a specific reference as this was an article I read many years ago but it is a fascinating take on the subject.

[@erokul]

​@@robo5013 Thanks for the info, I find some things I never heard before in your comment. I am not very well informed in this topic so I will speculate here, but I wonder if there was a religious/ritualistic/mythical aspect at play, given that we have divine council concepts going as far back as ancient Egypt, Babylon and Sumer. I am curious how far back we can trace the idea through myths, and if they are related at all. The most natural way I can think of about the Senate appearing is curiously described in the myth itself - when you have a union of several tribes - each tribe wants their leader to have a say, and from there its a natural development to elect someone as a "ruler" and plot against him if he gets too much power/becomes tyrannical. My intuition says that we can probably trace it back to nomadic people in the steppe, where the regular gathering of equal leaders (tribes) will likely happen spontaneously, gradually become a custom/tradition, gain a religious/mythical meaning, then become a form of governance for the local tribes in the area. Basically the same idea of elders gathering, but in a different setup. I understand that humans have had gathered in a similar way probably hundreds of thousands of years, but I cannot find any good research exploring the reflection in the oldest myths and beliefs in the way Crecganford does. I would really love to see his take on that topic.

[@robo5013]

@@erokul For the Roman Senate it was a gathering of clan elders from the Latin farmers who lived in the area.They would gather on the hills that would eventually become the city. Throughout the area of Italy that was called Latium, where the Latin tribes lived, archaeologists have found hill forts across the region dating to the early iron age or just a few centuries before Rome became a city. These hill forts were fairly crude affairs with the wall being nothing more than a large fence of stacked stones and would have been a place of refuge for the local farmers when threatened with invasion. It was also a place for the heads of the families, or clans, to gather to perform religious ceremonies and while there settle disputes among the themselves. Some of these hill forts eventually grew into cities. There was a national Latin festival, the Feriae Latinae, that had been held by all the Latin peoples in honor of Jupiter Latiaris, or Jupiter of the Latins who was their supreme god, that was held on another hill near to Rome that predates the founding of the city. It also held the same function to settle disputes among the Latins as a whole. The Romans eventually gained enough influence, mainly through conquest, to become the host of this event, again probably because they could hold the others hostage to their will being that they were now the strongest group of Latins and their city was close to the site. As for what we can learn from mythology about the beliefs of nomadic peoples and their socio/political structure I don't know if that would be possible. The best chances of doing so would be what we could learn from Gobekli Tepe and other similar sites to it as they seem to have been exactly what you are referring to as a gathering place for nomadic tribes. The archaeology of those places is very recent and it will be many decades before we can gain any meaningful insight into the cultures that created them. Creganford goes back to the PIE peoples who were mostly sedentary pastoralists who kept cattle and didn't farm. They were the 1st bronze workers, horse riders and inventors of the wheel (at least the wagon/chariot) which allowed them to spread out and conquer much all across Europe, the Middle East and into India. That is about as far back as we can trace any linguistics and therefore myths. I doubt that very much will be discovered about the peoples that built Gobekli Tepe during my lifetime, I'm in my 50's, as even what little is known is hotly debated by those doing and studying what little there is available. If you are younger than me that could be an area of studies to go into and you could possibly be one of the scholars that unravels that mystery for us.

[@erokul]

​@@robo5013 Oh, thank you so much for so detailed and information dense comment! Really appreciate that you took time to lay it out what i understand is a purified result of years following the topic! I have a lot of googling to do! I was referring PIE too, but in their earlier stages, when they were still nomadic pastoralists, or perhaps even further back. But you might be spot on when comparing it with Göbekli Tepe, it is on a high point as well, and given the widespread and very ancient nature of "divine council" - and also our understanding of Gebekli Tepe as a gathering point - it might have some connection to hill forts and the elders of Latium gathering on hills. The connection I am implying (if there is any at all) - may be much older than Tepes themselves. I understand that there might be no connection at all, that these things are separated by thousands of miles and years. I also understand that most likely those are just high points that are easy to defend, and/or those are just a notable landmarks naturally becoming a gathering points for everyone in the local area. I am 35 now, but I wholeheartedly believe that we'll together see at least one or two major breakthroughs in coming decade in archaeology and history, given how fast the technologies evolve. Unfortunately I am a programmer, and I have no chance of any academic career here, as much I would've wished for. So anything I write above - is just a speculation powered by ignorance and inspired by these amazing videos. In my defense - I am trying to fill the gaps of my knowledge as much as possible and whenever I have a chance to do so. Creganford sometimes goes back tens or hundreds of thousands of years when he is trying to unravel the oldest myths and their origins. Sometimes I find very surprising plot twists and unlikely connections being made here, and it gives a courage to share my fantasies :)

[@empireofengland6039]

Super. I will just add about the Christ. Book of Daniel was probably written in Macedonic age,literature itself there shows great influence by Greek. And here appears The Son of man coming from the heaven. So Jesus and his decipeles just followed the Tanakh. What John writes its seems to be very heavy influenced by Daniel. The beast ,angels,and form of creatures he uses all similar to Daniel. So I will say that it's John from Daniel and Daniel from Greeks

[@gaz8891]

ok!

[@DJWESG1]

I remeber getting the heads up for this a few hours b4 it was posted, however, it's taken all this time to appear on my feed. Kettle on ✅️ Edit* I can only add one thing.. the beginning of Rome and its empire can only start where Alexander's reign ends. I would have thought whatever stories and whatever language they used to describe their world was one that was entirely embedded in Greek and Macedonian traditions

[@Crecganford]

I have another video which talks about how the Greek creation myth comes from the Near East, as opposed to retaining any of the primitive form of the Indo European myth. And Rome carried on with that, and this creation myth was repurposed for Rome and not the world.

[@MichaelTodd-tq8dk]

No. Romulus is Cain and/or Ham.. Cain was/is worshipped as a Messiah figure. Some of his worshippers even said that Jesus Christ was a reincarnation of Cain... When, he is not. Cain is the "other" or "Anti-Christ" as he opposes him. Cain and his descendants were worshipped as "Sun-gods." "Cain, the sixth ruler of Heyl-el (Heylel), whom the great generations of men worship as 'The Sun'." -- Gospel of the Egyptian This story is repeated with Ham (Cam) [If it is not the same story.] This would be equated by many scholars to the Roman deity, Saturn... Sol Invictus.

[@kenmcclellan]

Another good reason for the story of twins beginning a history was that our last Creation (of roughly 4510 BC) came as the Age of Gemini concluded with either a Hand of God event or a between-the-horns event of Taurus. The fact that they were associated with the Woodpecker (seen as the Phoenix or Osiris) and the Wolf (seen as Seth -- the reversal of Orion/Osiris) and with Canis Major (the Sirius nova) would be another hint that we have a tale of Apocalypse-Genesis folded into the History of Rome. We are rapidly approaching another such moment. The story of "the God" and his Only-Begotten Son goes back thousands of years. You can find it with Enlil and Enki ... followed by Enki (Yahweh I) and Marduk (Yahweh II/Adonai). Which is the same as Saturn and Jupiter. Bringing into the question the importance of Mars. Which you can find crossing the vernal equinox shortly before Jupitar and Saturn trade places ... just like the god who falls (Lucifer) and the one who rises (the Phoenix). Now ... as to which one is the "Christ" ... remains to be seen. The quartering of the body of the Creation would be related to the four archangels of the Beth Alpha synagogue ... or the Cosmic Cross of the Universe (Pisces-Aquarius axis connecting with the Virgo-Leo line perpendicular to the Milky Way). Your Cow story also takes us back to the last quarter-precession event. All of this constitutes the great cautionary tale of the Indo Europeans and even earlier cultures. Because it has been 90 degrees since the last event! Six hours of right ascension. The sign to watch for such events was Orion's Belt. So go to the Giza Plateau for your proof. Three great pyramids positioned behind a Sphinx. A sign of Orion juxtaposed with a sign of Leo. Well, Orion is no longer the vernal equinox ... it has come to the summer solstice! (So next year, your ancestors would have expected evil things indeed.)

[@martinbowman1993]

Reminds me of the creation of the material world through the death of Ymir which means the twins.

[@iachtulhu1420]

Yemo is cognate of Remo and of Ymir or Indo-Iranian Yama.

[@GriffinParke]

Interesting, the Sceafa myth from Germanic mythology is similar. There's other parallels aswell with alot of similarities with the Trojan War and the Ramayana.

[@gaz8891]

Yes, it seems that the Trojan War was the major event that resulted in the dispersal of the proto-indo-European tribes and the dispersal of the myths across Eurasia, both east and west. There is also a very interesting theory, with good evidence, that the tribes involved in the Trojan War were actually north European. The climate had been cooling and after the war, the tribes dispersed, some going south to the Mediterranean and eventually founding Rome and the Mycenean/Greek cultures, and others going east to form the vedic cultures. Others stayed in northern Europe, as the Germanic and Norse cultures! See the book, "The Baltic Origins of Homers Epic Tales."

[@erlinggaratun6726]

And there is no particular reason to think Plutarch had a christian gospel but never mentioned it. simply because there is no mention by anyone of gospels until a generation after Plutarch's death.

[@qwertyiou9]

Thank you for this video! I am enjoying it so far. An edit for future videos: 13:32 Your channel name is covering the first word in the summary of Plutarch's version. A slight adjustment would be wonderful. Was this just added? I don't remember it in previous videos. Edit: I don't remember it covering words in previous videos.

[@Crecganford]

Thank you for letting me know.

[@ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣΜΙΧΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ]

Thank you for the very interesting analysis of the myth. Throughout the video you refer to indoeuropean and proto indoeuropean as if they are actual civilisations, while my understanding is that they are a lingustic theory, an attempt to explain similarities, linguistic or not, in actual ancient civilisations that theoretically, the similarities, should never exist.

[@Crecganford]

Yes, Proto Indo-European is a language spoken by cultures around 6kya, and Indo-Europeans are the cultures that spread from these people and who speak a language that evolved from that. And so when I talk about these people I am referring to those who spoke the language and so had the beliefs that we see remaining in those languages.

[@gaz8891]

Hmm, I don't think we should be saying "that ... should never exist." More and more evidence tells us that the Bronze Age Europeans were well connected across the continent because of the long distance trading in metals and other products that was going on. Tin was traded from Britain right across Europe. Arable crops and sheep were introduced from the Mediterranean all over to western Europe. The Beaker people travelled around and established themselves as a ruling elite over many local tribes. So yes there was a common connected culture across most of Europe and that is well confirmed by the archaeology as well as linguistics.

[@gg_plays7647]

the creation myths about twin brothers kind of coincide with the fact that the universe was created with both matter and anti matter but one destroyed the other then eventually took place

[@roberttarquinio1288]

Rome was a Village before it was urbanized by the Taruuins )In Rasena: Tarchnas) Romulus if true, established the village The Etruscans (Rasena) called Rome Rumula

[@verdikulk6193]

Got my coffee ready...

[@losttreker9449]

Just so you know, that your sipping of tea made me press the like button. It worked! Hahahaha

[@Samuel42069]

love your videos, you are great person. Would want to talk to you sometime, you know while drinking tea and talking about myths. but it's probably impossible. I have deep respect for you for sharing these great stories with more people, myths live on.

[@Crecganford]

I will have a live stream one day, and I hope many can come along and ask questions, and maybe talk as well.

[@Samuel42069]

@@Crecganford yes that sounds great. I will surely come. I really love your enthuatianism about the myths you cover and in all of your videos as a whole, it adds heart to it and its really much more enjoyable to watch. It's good that you make living by something that you do love, not everyone does that. You are lucky person, by your own choice of course. Wish you great night and i'll continue with watching your videos, i have lot of them in "play later" and lot of teas prepared haha.

[@Musick79]

What needs to be considered is that a story of a redeemer of mankind, born of a virgin, battle with a serpent/dragon to kill the male child, but eventually the male child rules the world. This story is from the earliest of constellations called the Mazzeroth. It is traced to Chaldean but probably earlier. This is said to be taught to Adam, and taught by Seth, Noah, Shem. It of course been corrupted over millennia- especially by Greeks. But Chaldeans, Persians, and others had records of these earlier constellations and stories. So- it is referred to by Job, the oldest book in the Bible. It was what the Persian and Chaldean Magi were referring to as what led them to Yeshua. The constellation is described and referrred to in Revelations 12. It also explains why there have been myth stories regarding the virgin having a child. It is Virgo, and Christ was Leo, Chaldeans knew the tribe of Judah was associated with a Lion. Then Jupiter Regulus represented a King. (Going off memory) Another constellation from ancient times was coma- The virgin and the child. The iconic pictures of cola show the virgin with a headress and is the spitting image of the Sphinx. It seems the true riddle of the Sphinx was understanding when the year began in the zodiac/Mazzeroth- answer With Virgo at the beginning and Leo at the end. BUT- look it up and study it- I recommend the series by the Chaddim (KZbin) or a Judaic source. You will understand why it seems Christianity copied earlier themes. It would be a theme laid from the earliest times, and “Christ” fulfilled it.

[@constantinedeboudox]

Could there be connection to Rama from Indian myths? Ethymology of Rama is pleasing, lovely, beautiful but could it at some point be used as synonymous to man/vir/ch'lovek? As used in the name of Roma people (standard term for human in Roma is chavale)

[@nazom_oko]

Suggestion: I'd really love to hear your opinion about the Nibelungen Saga and its motives in Europe

[@SpiderPriestess]

She was a she wolf, but she was a two legged she Wolf

[@gaz8891]

Oh really ?! A werewolf, then ??

[@sonofraven76]

The city wall built by Romulus wasn't large, nor did it need climbing like you describe. It was a ceremonial division, based on religion, and by stepping over it Remus was committing a religious crime, which Romulus had no choice but to punish him for with death, as much as he didn't want to. The story is a tragedy of Remus believing he had no choice but to breach the religious division, and Romulus having no choice but to enact punishment for it - the birth of a city from the sacrifice of one brother by the other, which feeds into everything you've been saying about PIE mythology.

[@RealUvane]

Very very good! So there’s this Amorite god Amarru also taken as being Mars. Prometheus also contains the word Rome. But the oldest temple in Rome is Saturns, so there should be a chapter 0 to the real history of the eternal city.

[@godskingssages4724]

Yep! Most people miss the Amaru (akA Martu as the Sumerians called him) and Mars connection. He’s the warrior son of the storm god Adad/Rammanu. I would also extend that and connect it to the Vedic Maruts and another name for the warrior monkey god, Hanuman, is Maruti, and Hanuman is the son of the Wind//Warrior/Storm god Vayu, who is mentioned as being equivalent to Rudra (akA Shiva) throughout the rigveda. And strengthening all of these connections is Amarru was associated with the Steppe. I believe that there were much earlier interactions between the northern Amorites in the Syrian steppe and the proto Indo-Europeans of the Pontic caspian steppe, so Maykop, Yamnaya and the Corded Ware. In fact, I think the Amorites may be an offshoot of Maykop, which itself, was a mixture of early Indo-Euro Yamnaya and Anatolian farmers. There would have also been Uruk/Sumerian influences and the Iranian plateau, which connects to Amarru’s epithet as the first god of Anshan. This connection is strengthened in that Amarru seems to have risen to prominence after 2200 BCE.

[@RealUvane]

@@godskingssages4724 interesting

[@titanomachy2217]

The name Prometheus containing the letters R-O-M-E is a coincidence, it comes from the Ancient Greek for "forthought" with "pro" meaning "before" and "manthano" meaning "intellect", basically translating to "Forethinker" in English. The Titan Prometheus actually had a brother named Epimetheus meaning "Afterthinker", coming from the Ancient Greek word for "hindsight", with the root "epi" meaning "after" and then "manthano" and the suffix "-eus", which turns both words into names. They were sons of the titan Iapetus and in some myths Epimetheus is partly responsible for Prometheus getting in trouble with the gods and for Pandora unleashing all the misfortunes of the world from the box given to her by the gods.

[@gaz8891]

Ok, this is great, tracing Romulus & Remus back to the creation twins Wiros & Yemos or Manu & Yemo of the Indo-European myths. But I'm not sure about the Quirites bit and can't help checking what the great book, "The Baltic Origins of Homers Epic Tales" has to say (please read this, it addresses so much). This offers a different background for 'Quirites.' Well, 'Quirites' was the name used for the citizens of ancient Rome (as distinct from the soldiers). There is an argument set out in this book that the ancient Greeks and Trojans (the Roman ancesters) were actually from northern Europe (consider the warmer climate during the Bronze Ages, and many other points). Certainly we find a lot of commonality between the place-names and mythology of the Romans and the eastern Baltic region. In particular, the Lithuanian language and names have significant similarities with Latin, eg. Lithuanian villages called Romainias and Romanavas. And in Lithuania is the region of Kurland or ancient Curetia. The people of this region were probably the Curetes people in Homer's epic of the Trojan War and in the Greek legend of Zeus' birth, and so they're probably the origin of the Quirites of the later Roman world in the Mediterranean (when the climate cooled, the tribes migrated to southern Europe). So the term 'Quirites' just remembers the original homeland and tribe name of the Romans. For me, this seems a much simpler and more believable origin for Quirites. Perhaps this part needs another think ?

[@gaz8891]

Oh, just watched it again and I see you're actually talking about Quirinus, the deified name of Romulus and you suggest this is derived from Wironus. Well, Quirinus and Wironus sound much the same, and making the founder God of Rome also the founder God/being of mankind in general is sort of understandable, so I can accept that connection. However, I really don't think that 'Romulus' came from Quirinus, they sound too different. I think it's much easier to say that Romulus just means 'little Romus,' ie. the younger brother. By referring to Romulus as Quirinus, I think they just meant that the founder of Rome had really been a personification of Quirinus, a way of giving much more authority to Romulus and Rome. And I still think that there HAS to be a connection between Quirinus and the name that the Roman citizens gave themselves 'Quirites'. So my comments above, tracing this back to the region of Curetia suggests some other more ancient facets to this name.

[@RJ420NL]

Thank you.

[@rabbitvee321]

btw "wiros"/viros ancient palavi/wi word in indo-nation nation mean "heroes", heroes=viros, theres a story called viros sableng=crazy heroes😁

[@katiebellenger8070]

Thanks for the efforts put in for another great vid learning heaps your a legend mate 🎉❤

[@bostonbilly7725]

I thought Remus's followers killed him so Remis named it Rome after Romulus.. ❤😊 i love that you always have different versions etc and older stuff 😅 ty jon

[@kariannecrysler640]

It’s a cocoa made with coffee for me today lol.

[@neilhaverly4117]

Kingdom of heaven is like two sons, or siblings, one saying that they will go to the fields and the other saying that they will not go to the fields. The one who said that they would go doesn't go and the one who said they would not go goes to the fields. Which one has done their Father's Will Also fits the age old riddle of the two identical twins at the fork in the road with one path leading to death and destruction and the other one to happiness and eternal bliss. One twin always lies the other always tells the Truth. Only able to ask one of those one question to get on the correct path. Yet like many things that we don't think about is who told us about the fork the twins and the only one question being allowed.

[@Tiewaz]

I vaguely remember hearing/reading the story of Romulus and Remus when I was a kid (some 4 decades ago or so) with the quartering part. Which always confused me about why. Seemed odd to me. (Then again, save for the myths where there was a greater purpose to the killing of someone, I never understood why people killed others like that.)

[@stevenwilliams1805]

I suspect we in the modern age take for granted the general reverence we have for human life. At least in most western countries. Even the death penalty is debatable as we've worked towards more humane was of carrying that out.

[@Tiewaz]

@@stevenwilliams1805 I think in some instances, it was less not having reverence for human life, but that some things were so important that sacrifice of one human life for the good of many other human lives was considered right/noble/something. Now, whether the one sacrificed is doing so willingly...that's a whole other matter.

[@stevenwilliams1805]

@@Tiewaz I'm not sure if you are making a defensive of cold blooded killers who forfeit their life by taking others or simply comparing the death penalty to human sacrifice? I'm fairly certain death for punishment of crime isn't even close to a modern practice.

[@Tiewaz]

@@stevenwilliams1805 I'm talking more about how people view human sacrifice to executions for crimes. The beliefs back when were that a human life WAS valuable and that was the price required for whatever the sacrifice was made for. I'm sure religions then got as corrupt as the ones now where there were ulterior motives for who was selected/not selected to be sacrificed. But as a rule, people believed (rightly or wrongly) it necessary. Execution for crimes is a hotly debated thing. You have people who think it should be abolished entirely because sanctity of human life, even if that human life had taken other lives or otherwise permanently harmed them. There are those who think it should only be for crimes equal to losing a life. (Life for a life, etc.) And there are some who act like any crime is unforgiveable and should be punished by execution. (ie, if someone does the time for the crime, they still get treated as if they'd not been punished at all.) I personally think if taxpayers must pay for maintenance of permanent prisoners, we should pay at least that much toward every child's education in the hopes they do NOT end up as even temporary prisoners. And if someone served their punishment, treat them as such. Sure, can watch them closer than others, but give them the chance to prove they've learned better.

[@marcobelli6856]

@@stevenwilliams1805you can Read Benedetto Croce about death Penalty he was a central figure in making it illegal in Italy (he Must have been Translated) and After you Read it you can’t be pro death Penalty anymore in my opinion by how much ne explain it well. I always suggest him when Talking About death penalty

[@francinemorris2957]

OMG, thank you for this huge puzzle piece! 🙏🏽⛎⛎⛎🆒🥇🏆

[@joshua3171]

Age of Gemini 6450 BCE 4300 BCE

[@joergf6]

There are also many similarities between Osiris and Sol Invictus and Jesus.

[@vespasian266]

Well, never connected the dots before in regards the roman foundation myth. But right away, it follows that after the destruction of the Jewish temple a new way forward with a new creation myth would use a template to root the story. Only recently did it dawn on me that Jesus trial and death was a retelling of the trial of Socrates. I've been into this sort of stuff for decades. anyway, you do some solid work.

[@celsus7979]

Mythvision has a lot of videos talking to bible scholars about the mythical origins of some parts of the jesus story. Highly recommended!

[@vespasian266]

@@celsus7979 The trouble is, theres so many theories put up there you end up not knowing what to believe. best to think, well these are the template to hang a myth, then see if you can spot the filler surrounding the story.

[@elainebelzDetroit]

It seems likely that these ancient stories use similar motifs and tropes. As for the canonical Gospels, Christians were absolutely speaking to the Roman story. Calling Jesus "Lord" and "Son of God" was a political act, as was Jesus' "triumphal" entry into Jerusalem on a donkey. I don't think we need to reduce any of these stories to mere copying or trickery (as modernists are prone to do when they find similarities, copying, & borrowing). I think it's more like there's a grammar that the people living in the time would know, and would know how to use it to tell the story they're trying to tell. I'm a Christian, and I absolutely believe Jesus existed, and was God incarnate. But I also recognize that the Gospel stories aren't meant as newspaper accounts; they're polemic, and the authors would draw from other ancient writings (esp. the Hebrew scriptures), myth, cultural motifs, etc., as well as biographical & historical details, and probably also their imagination, in order to tell the story as they wish to tell it. And they wished to tell it in a way that would give hope to people on the underside of empire. (Empire would pick it up, imo, when Constantine recognized the usefulness of the extant network of bishops - the structure of the Church, or rather churches - that spread throughout the known world when he wanted to re-unite his empire.) As a Christian, I think it's important to hold specific beliefs within my tradition rather loosely, especially as we continue discovering new things & better see the foreignness of ancient texts despite our familiarity with the wording of those texts. That's why, in my Anglicanness (Anglicanity? Anglicinsanity? ;p I'm Episcopalian) I think it's important to hold Scripture, tradition, and reason in tension. I won't even give one of them precedence.

[@Egilhelmson]

As far as a grammar goes, there was a reason that Allenby _walked_ into Jerusalem rather than anything that would make him seem entering in a triumphal manner in 1917. He thus avoided any such grammar.

[@DJWESG1]

Ultimately each story shares one detail, that they all borrow from the same reality being perceived by different ppl. How real that reality was perceived is often how each story unfolds.

[@lesliewells-ig5dl]

Thanks for another great video!!

[@Crecganford]

Thank you.

[@lesliewells-ig5dl]

@@Crecganford You're welcome!!

[@deborahdtw]

Very interesting!

[@Egilhelmson]

Why was the Senate founded? Because every town has its own little town council, called “Senatus”. Nothing special, until Rome grew larger than its neighbors. After Rome became a town, again, after the Visigothic capital moved to Ravenna, it still had a “Senatus”, until the Visigoths and Easterners commanded by Flavius Belisarius traded the city back and forth too many times and all the Senators of Rome died off. Then the Treasury of Rome was sent back to Constantinople for Emperor Justinian to enjoy.

[@randomusername5242]

Oh wow, so Paul was a reflection of Roman foundational mythology as well.

[@gaz8891]

Yes, wow !

[@emZee1994]

What are your thoughts on the theory that "raised by a she-wolf" is a metaphor for raised by a prostitute? This is what a tour guide in Rome told me. I was skeptical

[@Crecganford]

I would say it is more a link to stories where we see twins suckling a cow in earlier Indo-European Myth, such as with Ymir in the Old Norse Edda.

[@TabletopWargamer]

"lupa" means both things

[@gaz8891]

Someone above says that the myth was actually of a two-legged wolf, ie. a werewolf !

[@gaz8891]

I love the reverence with which you treat these wisps of information from our ancient past and I can't help listening again and again. I hadn't heard of this earliest creation myth of the twins Manu and Yemo. Well if Yemo died, then we are all descendants of Manu, aren't we ? So is this where we get the term 'man' ? Used perhaps to distinguish us from the earlier types of people (the Sumerians said that we are the fifth creation of people by the gods, the earlier ones being 'unsuitable'). And does this also explain the term 'Son of Man', which otherwise is a bit meaningless, presumably to emphasise that we are descendants of Manu, ie. 'normal' people, not the giants or whatever of earlier times ? Interestingly, Jesus generally referred to himself as Son of Man (and only rarely as Son of God).

[@Crecganford]

Thank you for your kind words and thoughts.

[@gaz8891]

@@Crecganford Well I probably went a bit far there, as you're saying that Manu & Yemo were the creators of the world, but not - I think - of people. Still, makes one wonder ... supposedly there were previous cycles of catastrophe and re-creation, I believe.

[@violenceislife1987]

I have a theory based on the great Platonic year. Romulus and The age of Gemini

[@KipIngram]

Romulus killing Remus doesn't agitate me the same way Cain killing Abel does - the way you described it sounded like a much more "fair, face to face" thing, whereas I've always had the impression that Cain more or less back stabbed Abel (not literally, but hopefully you get what I mean).

[@gaz8891]

To be honest, we only know the bible version and that is a very shortened and distorted version of the original Sumerian myth. So who knows what the circumstances really were. For instance, we have all learnt that it was humans who committed the original sin, by eating the forbidden fruit, and so we have to accept suffering for all time, or something. However, in the longer Sumerian version, it was actually Yahweh himself (Enki) who ate the forbidden fruit and was punished. So I personally think that we have been told more than a few porkies along the way, to make sure that we are easily manipulated to do the demons' will ! Hence the mess we are in today ;)

[@karenlankford8558]

I learn so much from you.

[@Crecganford]

Thank you, I hope you find it interesting.

[@JM-The_Curious]

So there's no chance that Remus could linguistically derive from Yemo? I was thinking that if you remove the R from Remus then you have almost the same sound as Yemo.

[@Crecganford]

I wouldn't say there is no chance, what I talk about is usually what I consider the most probabilistic outcome, it doesn't mean another situation was the root of it.

[@JM-The_Curious]

@@Crecganford Thanks. Known linguistics rules and history are definitely more likely to offer correct explanations.

[@rafaelcotero3528]

Hi this is my first video of yours that iv seen, and im surprised i thought that i knew the origins of Rome well enough! But you have told me some lore that i did not know i thank you, but i was wondering what is your background i assume you definitely have a degree in history literature and maybe even linguistics?

[@Crecganford]

Yes, in Anglo-Saxon and in Old Norse literature, but also spent a portion of my life understanding linguistics and natural language processing in AI, which I use to help research.

[@matthewsilfer2010]

@crecganford are you familar with the evidence joseph atwell puts in his book "ceasars messiah" would love to hear some analysis of it

[@richardmerchant3375]

Can you do a video about where the concept of wishes comes from?

[@Crecganford]

That’s an interesting idea, thank you for suggesting it. I’ll see if there is enough material to make something decent.

[@richardmerchant3375]

@@Crecganford 👍 appreciate the videos and material you come out with 🙏

[@annemariededekind6271]

Wonderful myth story