The Pac-12 Didn’t Have to Die (The Real Story)

[@stevenmcneely1466]

For a conference that prided themselves on academics, they proved to be pretty damn stupid.

[@volbound1700]

Academics is bogus today. It is more about an agenda than intelligence in our world. At one time, it was something real...

[@kiotee_nouw]

Academics? They allowed BLM and Antifa to burn their campuses down! They've been pretty stupid for a very long time!

[@TheFranchiseCA]

It's a common enough thing; being smart in one field can lead to overconfidence in other subjects. My knowledge of pre-Columbian America doesn't mean I understand molecular biology.

[@larryparis925]

You clearly fail to understand the difference between fields of scholarship and bureaucratic administration.

[@Yakitak]

John, you did so well by not interrupting the speaker. You listened well, so John Wilner provided continuity of thought and fully developed his ideas.

[@larryparis925]

Yes, well said.

[@acheu1ean]

Great interview! Colorado did give an ultimatum about the nature of the deal a week before they committed to leave, that day came and went with no response from the league office and Colorado was not going to be the last rat on a sinking ship. Kinda the same thing happened when they left the B12 originally. CU doesn't really have a partner school, so we will always be compelled to act first in our own interests. It is nice to be back in the B12 without Texas, I will miss Oklahoma & Missouri.

[@BjtheLawyer_]

Missouri should move back to B12. We have no rivalries in SEC. In football we’ve either been really good or trash. And the good seasons are few in between!

[@marcthorpe8057]

Another GREAT interview John. You keep hitting them out of the park!

[@cfb_plus7399]

This was a superb interview

[@firebirdguy3151]

Awesome interview.

[@JohnathanLingo]

Very good discussion between you two. Jon earned a lot of respect from me over the past few years for his good humor through it all.

[@TheFrizbaloid]

Kliavkoff was supposed to be a great negotiator but turned out to be an inept car salesman. He refused to let the presidents see the process with ESPN and didn’t push back on the $50M belief. He could have talked ESPN up to $35M but was too dumb to make it happen.

[@matthewtolman5598]

I'd put, maybe, 30% accountability on the Utah economics dude who said their broadcasting rights were worth $50 million per school. Then I'd put 70% accountability on the PAC presidents who were dumb enough to believe him and negotiated hard for it.

[@phillipolsen1262]

It's more USC and Fox than anyone

[@daelkolwitz3509]

I don't remember that as Utah. I thought it was a Stanford or Arizona professor.

[@jansonroberts2616]

Larry Scoot and his merry band of bobble beaded University administrators front and center.

[@TimothyPowlas-js1dh]

I think the lack of a linear platform was a huge problem. There are a lot of viewership numbers tolied into casual fans finishing their game and then watching the next game because it seems interesting or a game to watch before the next game starts. Taking that deal with the CA to get eleven games on broadcast was a good decision by WSU and OSU because you tie into the ACC games they are already showing.

[@lukefletcher4689]

Great Segment

[@Yakitak]

Great commentary and insights

[@cacogenicist]

If there is one school you can blame above all others, it's obviously USC.

[@DavidM442]

Or Utah whoch insisted on unrealistic media payouts?

[@waynesimpson4081]

The LA schools wanted national brands. Eastern media often sleep on/ignore West Coast talent and teams, which made it even harder to recruit not just athletes but students. USC and UCLA wanted the eyes of students who would normally think Duke, Michigan, Notre Dame or even Ivies. They wanted 2 hour long Saturday commercials for their campuses' weather, facilities, sports and academics. An isolated Pac-12 wasn't going to give them that.

[@mrmonkeysays]

Wilner never could see that Oregon and Washington weren't going to sign a Pac extension at $25-$30M. He also couldn't see that 16-24 school superconferences were coming, and the Pac had no pathway to expand to that size (from 10) and continue pro-rata. Canzano was an all-out Pac stooge, and Wilner was not that, but I think his judgment was biased by his Pac worldview.

[@ervinjd]

They had a path, in 2022, could have merged with Big 12, but No we're to good to add those "Truck stop" schools. Enjoy your flights to the east coast.

[@jamesrawson241]

@@ervinjd I have to agree with what monkey said above. Oregon and Washington always had an open door to go to the Big Ten. They knew that it was just a matter of what portion would they accept in Big Ten purgatory. Of course this is just my opinion, but it seems pretty obvious to me.

[@jamesrawson241]

@@ervinjd Yes, they could’ve gotten even a little more in the short term from the Big 12. But if I’m them, I think I probably play the long game. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a Mississippi State fan and I would personally give up half of my net worth to Mississippi State to encourage them to go to the Big 12 right now.

[@mrmonkeysays]

@ervinjd I agree. The Pac bypassed BYU for decades and didn't add Hateful 8 schools after OU/UT left. After missing out on the only sensible P5 adds adjacent to their region, they were left with G5 adds like SDSU and SMU, then Tulane, Boise St, UNLV, Rice, etc, to get to 16. No way that was going to work financially. The Big 12 had to add G5 schools, but the linchpin was adding the valuable BYU brand, which, again, the Pac would not add. Then, the Big 12 chose the 3 best G5 football schools on board, by far.

[@terrencenewman5580]

@@ervinjd They didnt think they were too good for you. They left you alone so you could rebuild your conference! They did the right thing for college football as a whole instead of trying to poach a conference to death leaving schools like Kansas State and Iowa State behind and homeless like the BIG12 is doing to Oregon State and Washington State. The only people acting like they're too good for anyone is the BIG 12 towards OSU and WSU.

[@joshleyva2249]

Yeah rejecting ESPN's lifeboat was a huge mistake. The reason the SEC and B1G networks are successful is because ESPN and Fox force cable companies to carry them in order to carry their more popular channels. The PAC 12 had no leverage like that in negotiating carriage. Not expanding when they had the chance was another huge mistake. The conference could've taken out their main competitor for a TV deal and added Big 12 schools, but let USC dictate that move when they should've said "Sit down, this is what's best for the conference." Turning down ESPN's initial offer because they thought they were worth 50 million was the final nail in the coffin.

[@tarheel7406]

TEXAS, OK, USC & UCLA all determined than the BIG12 and PAC (respectively) was no longer a peer Tier 1 conference, but the PAC could have survived as a Tier 2 as the BIG12 has. Neither the BIG12 nor PAC were proactive, as that failed to accept flight risks and preemptively backfill.

[@grumpygrant4537]

I’ve heard so much terrible stuff that the pac 12 execs have done over the last ten years and I don’t feel bad for how things went down. Honestly I’m happy that the pac 12 greed can potentially come to an end

[@Rob_Whitworth]

USC and UCLA leaving was the catalyst for the Pac-12 dying. So glad Utah beat USC 4 times in a row. But how did no one see USC was heading to the Big 10, until it was announced?

[@blazzedbunny3243]

It was 3 times in a row guy. Utah fans love to exaggerate

[@volbound1700]

Without USC, I don't think the Pac12 was viable long term unless they could pick up teams. The dagger was in the heart when the two Los Angeles schools left.

[@Knightowl1980]

It didn’t have to die, but the PAC B12 and ACC could not survive as 3 separate conferences if any team wanted to catch up to the B1G or SEC. Having 3 conferences sitting at 35m a year per school and 2 at 70 isn’t sustainable. You had to consolidate and try to close that gap. It’s a shame that neither of the 3 commissioners understood this and didn’t try to consolidate top brands before the SEC and B1G poached everyone to add value. The PAC and ACC each could have robbed the B12 but didn’t.

[@WildkatPhoto]

Wait what? There was absolutely no world where UCLA was going to be prevented for leaving or that "Caliminy" would be anything but symbolic. If Wilner believed that he is dumber than GK.

[@davidfloyd9134]

Let’s not forget that Washington St & Oregon State presidents voted NO to add the Irate 8 schools after UT & OU joined the SEC. That’s why I don’t feel sorry for them.

[@jesses5463]

Not sure what reality you live in when there was ever a possibility of Big 12 schools getting into the Pac.

[@teeduck]

It’s called pressure in the Board Room. And voting along. They’re powerless either way. SC was always calling the shots over the years. Just like Texas in the Big 12.

[@haroldflashman4687]

A fact that W/OSU fans like to pretend isn’t true when they claim that W/OSU are natural fits for the Big 12!

[@Dewledoux]

The irony… now they would do almost anything to join the Big 12

[@jesses5463]

@@haroldflashman4687 Ok, but the big 12 schools weren't a fit the pac 12.

[@Becauseimme]

Canelo

[@jeffkilgore6320]

Pac 12 viewership doesn’t come close to revenue in the SEC or the Big Ten, or even the big 12. That’s why their conference died.

[@teeduck]

Wrong.

[@tarheel7406]

After the USC/UCLA notice, the PAC was offered basically the same deal that the BIG12 later accepted.

[@Geelow_Swingin]

Tell me you don’t know shit about the pac 12 without telling me you don’t know shit about the pac 12

[@josephterrell2835]

Wilner is a sharp mind and good writer. BUT he was also pumping false narratives for many months and was so over the top pro GK that it is hard to take him seriously now. It seemed he had a source inside GK's office but now it seems like GK himself may have been that source. I'd really prefer to see him focus on other things and to hear his takes on the Pac 2 or new Big 12. GK is eating this soup sandwich whether he made it or not. No amount of re-litigation will help him. Yormark saw the decision tree laid out, predicted what decisions would be made and it all came to pass as he said.

[@emartinez51]

He overlooks the fact that UO and UW did not want 30s but BIG money. Also, AD Dept could not budget off the apple deal.

[@ervinjd]

Yeah Oregon & Washington were already out the door, everyone else just didn't know it.

[@keithstone6283]

⁠​⁠@@ervinjdI mean Phil was working the phones in July of 2022 so pretty much known.

[@Alohanate2004]

Funny thing is that's exactly what they are getting. $30 million per year as half share members for the next 6 years.

[@mrapnea6374]

USC bailing did it

[@teeduck]

Bingo. The PAC was dead eventually without LA market. CU was the 2nd torpedo. UO/UW the final hit.

[@NeptuneGuy78]

@@teeduckNo one likes UCLA

[@lorenzohaynes3886]

Imagine the Pac 12 with that Apple deal after this settlement and salary cap. That conference was dead because i don't see how Oregon and Washington could've signed any deal worth less than the Big 12 deal. Not in today's climate. 24 million per school would've been slow death.

[@scott4482]

This goes back to PAC12 not getting a broadcast TV deal, insisting on their stupid subscription deal. The PAC died because people in other parts of the country couldn't watch them on TV, that hurts recruiting that affects the quality of the programs. If the PAC would have made a TV deal it could have survived, with or without the condoms

[@rickg4169]

USC (and UCLA) jumping ship was the final nail. The remaining Pac 10 would NOT have been taken seriously going in to this season. The conference was an afterthought with the 12 teams and trailed the Big 12 and ACC. Without USC and UCLA, they would just be another Mountain West Conference v2 (MNWC?). In my humble opinion, Larry Scott should take all the blame. Grossly mismanaged conference under his watch. The Pac 12 ego bit them in the ass in the end

[@terrencenewman5580]

Washington was just in National Championship, Oregon has been a national power for decades now. That's why they're in the BIG 10 now. Utah has won 10 games or more in 3 out of the last 5 seasons and is the favorite to win the BIG 12 their first year in the conference. What are you talking about, its MW without USC and UCLA? If that's the case then the BIG 12 is basically conference USA without Texas and OU.

[@volbound1700]

Agree, it was dead as soon as USC and UCLA left.

[@volbound1700]

@@terrencenewman5580 it isn't about skill but perception. You lose the hottest recruiting region for the league (Southern California). USC has like 90% of the Pac12's football titles and UCLA has 90% of their Basketball titles. They were the Pac12 for all purposes. Sure both have been bad recently and Oregon/Utah/Washington have been better but those schools have 50k stadiums and outside of Washington, didn't do much prior to 2000.

[@PNWUte]

Kliavkoff has millions of reasons why he wouldn't bother responding

[@timbullough3513]

California itself would have ultimately brought about PAC demise ... participation in football is tanking there. Everywhere else is too small to make up the difference.

[@w.alan.21]

and it didn't..

[@kogspinz4]

The lack of performance on the football field is the root cause of the conference’s failure.

[@tarheel7406]

Define "failure". Coming into this realignment, the PAC and BIG12 were essentially tied as the worst P5s in football measured by the 4-team playoff; however, the PAC had not yet depleted out while the BIG12 had.

[@volbound1700]

@@tarheel7406 Big12 is a borderline G5 league now and it only survived because no one wanted the 8 teams left behind after OU and Texas left. Teams like Iowa State, Baylor, etc. are borderline G5 because you have some G5 schools that have as big of stadiums and attendance. There is a huge gap between them and programs like Auburn, LSU, Ohio State, Tennessee, Oklahoma, etc. Just look at the stadiums. ACC has a bunch of dead weights too like Wake Forest. If you put together leagues today, Wake Forest would probably be in the Sunbelt or FCS. EDIT: Sad thing is the ACC should be doing very well. They have markets from Boston to Miami and they have FSU, Miami, Va Tech, UNC, Clemson, Georgia Tech, and Pittsburgh. All are great Football programs historically. Problem is most these schools have really not been good in the modern era (Miami being the greatest infractor. If Miami was anything like they were in their heyday, you probably wouldn't be hearing about ACC Struggles, especially with Clemson and FSU being good). ACC also has that very bad contract that makes no sense.

[@tarheel7406]

@@volbound1700 a) The new BIG12 is Tier 2 rather than G5 level b) The ACC's problem isn't competitiveness nor value. It's the most balanced in athletic competitiveness. For context, the SEC is the best in football but a mid-major men's basketball measured by the Final Four. The ACC's problem is a long contract and an unexpected inflation curve.

[@volbound1700]

@@tarheel7406 agree for most part. By Big12, I am not just talking the $$$ they bring in but also stadium sizes, fan support, etc. ACC should be a lot stronger than the current Big12 but it isn't and it is mostly due to that bad contract.

[@tarheel7406]

@@volbound1700 THE ACC is far stronger than the BIG12. The ACC's contract doesn't reflect actual value, hence it's considered "terrible".

[@JonJuanFigueroa]

USC malfeasance. May they never win another game.

[@marcosmith2501]

USC president, Carol Folt, and her sexual-abuser A.D., Mike Bohn, suckered UCLA’s hapless A.D., Martin Jarmond, into jumping to B1G. That was NO “mistake “, Jon Wilmer!

[@DamonNomad82]

In other words, the Trojans conned 'em!

[@stan4osu]

A year ago, this channel was constantly ripping Wilner and practically questioning his integrity.

[@DavidM442]

Correct. Still, a good interviewer doesn’t insult or offend a guest who gave up time and agreed to be interviewed for free.

[@WildkatPhoto]

John I know you think highly of Wilner but he was knee deep in calling us 12Anon. And his BS about value is just that. Multiple times he said the PAC contract would be bigger and that the Big12 had taken a "low ball" offer. He is speaking a lot of revisionist history now because he was so so so wrong.

[@Alohanate2004]

Yep!

[@23cla69]

Don't forget the Quacks and every other program in the PAC 12 didn't do squat to earn the conference any respect. No national titles to show. Even with USC down for 10 + years, Oregon = O, Washington was respectful, nothing. Etc. It was time to move on.

[@Becauseimme]

Produced Jackie Robinson and Tiger Woods, =😢

[@benjaminwinfrey7727]

If it was up to the PAC schools, the Big 12 would have died by raiding the Big 12 years ago.

[@terrencenewman5580]

the PAC 12 left the BIG 12 alone so y'all could rebuild your conference after Texas and OU left. they didn't come and try to poach the BIG 12 to death and leave schools like Kansas state and Iowa state out in the cold like the BIG 12 is currently doing to Oregon State and Washington state. As a college football fan on the west coast it is truly baffling to me why big 12 fans have so much hate and anger for the PAC 12. We honestly never thought of the BIG12 as rivals we had to defeat.

[@patrickmcmullen3936]

@@terrencenewman5580That just isn’t true. The only thing keeping the PAC 12 from absorbing the Big 12 2 cycles ago was USC. The rest of the PAC 12 was on board. So USC saved the Big 12 and killed the PAC 12.

[@terrencenewman5580]

@@patrickmcmullen3936what you’re saying is simply not true. You don’t know if all the other schools wanted to take those schools or not because it NEVER came up for a vote. You are right that USC was never going to entertain the thought which his why it NEVER came up for a vote and never got any serious traction. So saying with certainty that the PAC was going to do something that they never even voted to do is just y’all assuming.

[@terrencenewman5580]

@@patrickmcmullen3936ESPN and Fox killed the PAC because they want national power conferences, not regional conferences. It’s better for their bottom line.

[@terrencenewman5580]

@@patrickmcmullen3936 you have no idea if the rest of the PAC was on board. They never voted on it. That’s just you assuming. You’re right that USC did squash any further discussions on the matter but the truth is no other school ever made an official statement on the matter for or against.

[@jesses5463]

College sports is much better off with no Pac-12, and most of the schools are better off too. Thank you to everyone involved!

[@jamesrawson241]

Well to me, the PAC 12 were basically the big 10 without the viewership/leverage. I’m really surprised that nobody besides me sees that the big 10 actually did this. It’s like they’re getting a complete pass for taking Washington and Oregon much less UCLA and USC all because the SEC took Texas and Oklahoma. Am I wrong in assuming the SEC took more flack? That seems ridiculous to me. No $30-$50 million contract was going to keep Oregon and Washington out of the big 10 when they knew what the future held in the Big Ten as long as that door was open. Clearly that door was open.

[@terrencenewman5580]

No college football is not better off! That's ridiculous. let go of the silly conference tribalsim. Why do BIG 12 fans have so much hate and resentment for the PAC 12? It's the SEC that stole all your good teams. As a football fan on the west coast, we never considered the BIG 12 our rival. No one had hard feelings towards the BIG 12. When Texas and OU left we were all rooting for you guys to rebuild your conference and we were pissed Texas and OU left y'all to join the big bad SEC. Why are you all so angry?

[@jesses5463]

@@terrencenewman5580 I'm first and foremost an SEC fan and a college football fan. The Pac-12 was everything that was wrong with college athletics.

[@terrencenewman5580]

@@jesses5463 oh please 🙄. What made the PAC so bad for college sports? Add substance to your answer this time and not word salad.

[@scottyclayton2501]

@jesses5463 How much is Sankey paying you? The PAC 12 (in most not all respects) is what was right with college football

[@weatherlou]

RIP pac…you had a nice run