The POSSIBLE Result Of Dark and Darker's Future

The past helps us predict the future. The dark and darker case is worse for them than the bluehole, and the bluehole main devs went to prison.
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#darkanddarker #games #steam

[@aethertoast4320]

This all just goes to show the dangers of feeling like something you made for a company is "yours" without the most explicit wording as such in your contract.

[@bernhardlabus8511]

Which is a wild assumption. Imagine it in any other space. Like a car engineer claiming a car as their own creation while working for the car company.

[@sienihemmo]

Yeah, people should just assume that everything they worked on belongs to the employer. Depending on what it is, that might include stuff that hadn't even left their head yet.

[@Martial-Mat]

Only an idiot would believe that in the first place. That would mean that they company was sponsoring you not employing you.

[@CyberneticArgumentCreator]

And it goes to show the idiocy of gaming chair youtube lawyers like yourselves. If it isn't explicitly protected by patent, copyright, or trademark, it doesn't matter where you learned it. What you're implying is that you can basically never work again if you leave a large company because you can't use anything you learned. The ONLY thing this hinges on is Korean law. Internationally and especially in the US, none of this holds up. Having a similar game concept is just not litigable, assuming the defendant is being honest that they wrote new code and found their own assets for everything.

[@Martial-Mat]

@@CyberneticArgumentCreator Hilarious Dunning Kruger irony in that post! 🤣

[@joshrodgers9366]

I know this is serious but from an entertainment standpoint this has been very very interesting to follow. Will be interesting to finally get the true details and see how it all plays out eventually

[@warmarky184]

I'm with you all the way on that one. For the people involved it sounds incredibly stressful but this is REALLY entertaining for me looking at it from outside.

[@sienihemmo]

As someone who hadn't even heard of the game before the legal stuff, yeah it's interesting to follow. Probably not for anyone that actually liked the game and just wants to play it.

[@dragonlords69]

Hey, to the person that Kira said help with the korean search and translation (if im not mistaken) thank you

[@snooganslestat2030]

I was also going to comment this.

[@trevor4664]

mad respect to kira for actually covering the news and not just saying how they feel about the situation

[@HarrHarrHarrify]

Mmm... Reading articles is investigative journalism? Mind you I have nothing against Kira and love his content but come on.

[@HakaishinCat]

@@HarrHarrHarrify If you're comparing what other youtubers are doing, screaming and crying about how nexon deserves to lose because they're a corporation. I'd say this would qualify as covering the news like the comment said. Nobody said it was an investigative anything except you lmao.

[@SnaxMang]

​@@HarrHarrHarrify Did you even read the comment you replied to. For fucks sake lmao.

[@trevor4664]

@HarrHarrHarrify did I say this was journalism? I was talking about covering both sides you bozo.

[@kekipark77]

my friend is a game dev (we both live in Seoul, Korea), and i asked her about this, after seeing it covered on your channel. she obviously already knew about this, and long story short, she thinks they are f*cked, which is in line with what you think will happen

[@Bozemoto]

Does she think they're f-ed regardless of if they're guilty, or only if they're guilty?

[@looots1320]

@@Bozemoto bruh Ironmace got funding to Tencent after leaving Nexon (it's in Kira's last video) basically selling Korean intel to China

[@Bozemoto]

@@looots1320 Tencent are everywhere though. Not really evidence. They're buying pieces of anything vaguely promising.

[@Jinkypigs]

​@looots1320 LOL yeah like selling "secrets" from Korea to China? LOL what a mindless simpleton take.

[@kekipark77]

@@Bozemoto only if

[@kombatwombat6579]

It's refreshing to listen to unbiased, fact-based views on things. Hard to find. Thanks, Kira.

[@WilliamLucian]

@@LivinProoof Kira isn’t biased I don’t think, if you watch his other videos on it he gets sources to confirm xyz and then he just reports on that.

[@kombatwombat6579]

@@LivinProoof Nah. If you watch the other videos he made on this he has stated his position on big companies like Nexon. Right now he is just citing potential legal bases and precedents of which I didn't know a lot and stating "this is how things could go forth" based on them. Saying "looks like legal precedent could favor Nexon" isn't being biased.

[@shadesmarerik4112]

@@WilliamLucian everyone is biased. Bias is an integral part of being an individual. If u really think someone is not biased, u are horribly blinded by ur bias.

[@UKGameShock]

Buttt NeXON BaD gIv our GaMe

[@stuartmorley6894]

​@@LivinProoof I don't think presenting facts is backing any side. Kira is often giving details from SK that we wouldn't normally have

[@lilpixie25]

So far, you're the only person i've seen taking this as serious as it seems to be. I would really like to know more, please do a full leangth vid on main channel

[@Wr41thgu4rd]

Charlie did some vids on it without any due diligence into the topic helping promote the idea of letting the court of public opinion decide guilt to his teenage fanbase. All because he is a fan of the game but there is definitely way more to the story than Nexon bad Dark and Darker dev good. It always gets under my skin when people with massive impressionable audiences do things like that although it was probably worse trying to make veiled threats and brandishing a firearm look cool.

[@ajaxmaxbitch]

​​@@Wr41thgu4rd Someone else made a pretty good video on the topic. I think it's called "is dark and darker stolen?". And yeah you're right about Charlie because his video was how I found out about the situation and what I basically got from it was "wow! Nexon is trying to take their game down over unreal assests? That's mest up" but then watched Kiras vids and realized there was way more to it

[@vitas5333]

@@ajaxmaxbitch @Yieri the video max mentions is by Devin Nash and it is also more along the lines of kiras.

[@ajaxmaxbitch]

@@vitas5333 yeah his video

[@callanmaart]

Very much looking forward to the KiraTV doc on this.

[@Sault195]

The more information comes out, the more I think Dark and Darker won't come out.

[@thedarklordx]

To be fair all of us have played TERA Online so there's plenty of hope.

[@Sault195]

@@thedarklordx if they are stupid enough to release it and risk to face similar consequences to Tera online devs. Yeah, true.. that might be true.

[@supertaoman12]

The future's becoming Dark and Darker

[@koifnen]

Imagine if the Nexon game came out... Maybe it would have been glorious :(

[@indicaflower5996]

@@koifnen Sorry to dissapoint you but nexon doesnt have one glorious game.

[@Fuzzy_Barbarian]

Thank you for your continued coverage of this. Seeing a lot of the community just warp everything so that they can paint Nexon as the evil corporate overlord pettily bullying the indie underdog is incredibly frustrating. I’m glad you’re examining the facts properly, even if it may be unpopular. Respect.

[@tackogronday]

I never want to back a corporation... But how could the devs not know what they did was wrong. They had an idea and worked on it while getting paid by someone using their resources and time. That is all their property. If the devs had started from scratch instead of borrowing assets then I'd back them. But what the devs did, whether knowingly or not, was wrong. They should have made it more different but basically the same but they wanted to rush. The shortcuts they took to hide their crime is what's gonna get them. It's not always whether you win or lose but also how you got there.

[@jamesflames6987]

IronMace is a corporation. This meme that any contentious legal issue can be easily solved just by siding with whichever side has less employees is utterly bizarre.

[@oliver_twistor]

​@@dephoro Well said. A common misconception regarding corporations is the belief that their only purpose and obligation is to make as much profit as possible. I always try to educate people that this isn't true. Their obligation is not to make as much money as possible; it's to do whatever the owners of the corporation (the shareholders) want to do. If the shareholders want to donate all profits to charity, then that is what the corporation's obligation is. I strongly dislike how many people portray shareholders or business owners as greedy monsters who would kill their own children to earn another buck. The motivation to invest in (or start) a corporation varies greatly between people, and even within the same person. I've invested in corporations via the stock market since around 1997, and during the years my motivation has varied. Some investments are purely to make a profit, others are to make a difference in the world. I enjoy investing in corporations and small businesses who tries to make the world a better place, or to serve underprivileged groups. Currently I'm quite heavily invested in a corporation that makes menstrual cups, and they also do a lot of work with girls and women in poor countries to increase awareness of and accessibility to female hygiene. Do I make money on that investment? No, at least not in the foreseeable future. But it makes me feel good to support two good causes I'm passionate about: the climate and women's health and rights. I'm thinking that a reason for big corporations turning bad is that many "good guys" are abandoning corporations and capitalism, but the corrupt ones remain. If more people who wants to do good in their communities were to engage with the financial system instead of just saying "big corpos and capitalism bad", I think we would see a lot more socially aware corporations out there.

[@muffinhydra]

Correction: they didnt borrow assets but used the exact same assets they used while working at Nexxon. Which is in this specific case regarding trade secrets similarly bad.

[@ChrisBear1989]

There aren't that many corporations that at the top have non assholes though, thats the sad part.

[@RisingRevengeance]

I used to be real into Tera and never knew this was going on behind the scenes

[@qunningStunts]

This is so fascinating, fantastic placement of the CEO bombshell too, that was great. Keep on keepin on!

[@Hojumuju]

I'm definitely interested to see how this all ends.

[@Melatoninist]

This is what I've been thinking this whole time. The crimes they are accused of sounds like corporate espionage.

[@GFORSE]

I come back every day for Kira and Kira...er

[@UDOD0NE]

I'm probably gonna have to re-watch this video again just to be sure I even understand what's going on.

[@comaiscool]

Another thing about how Western Media is portraying this is that anyone talking about the law side of things so far on the western aide is looking at the law aide with a Western Law outlook on it, not a Korean Law outlook which I find often silly

[@everythingpony]

But isn't iron mace in America?

[@nickh4354]

@@everythingpony no? They're Korean, nexon is Korean, the Korean police raided ironmaces Korean studio in, you guessed it, Korea... how did you miss this?

[@SvendleBerries]

@@everythingpony They only seem vaguely American because they have been communicating solely in English throughout this whole debacle. Seemingly for the sole reason of getting their western audience on their side hoping they wont do any digging. Many have not and continue to talk about the issue as if our legal system can have any impact on two Korean companies operating within Korea.

[@westernbrumby]

@@nickh4354great comment

[@MrRunes233]

It’s involving both nations because DMCA takedown if pursued is strictly a U.S. based law meaning you must use US law to enforce it but the unfair competition prevention and trade secrets protection act is involved with South Korea and this law has 50+ articles it’s extremely vague so it’s really how evidence is presented in this

[@goldlick7138]

it was a bit strange how good their game worked in the first betas, they said in one interview that they had one network coder ....

[@muffinhydra]

Ofc. If you spend whatever years day in and day out finding out what exactly doesn't work spinning up exactly what works is trivial. A software developer spends just as much if not more time finding out what doesn't work vs writing stuff that actually works.

[@Bozemoto]

Programmers who know what they're doing is incomparable to good programmers who aren't familiar with the tech. A good programmer can work miracles.

[@CabbageYe]

Thanks for the nuanced take. When I saw Charlie's (penguinz0) video it reminded me of a previous video he had made defending a voice actor that turned out to be a massive liar. He took everything ironmace said as fact . Taking the stance that the indie studio is innocent and big corporation evil is easy.

[@warren_r]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Charlie needs to watch Kira's clips.

[@lovejoy1311]

He would be right the vast majority of the time.

[@herpderp728]

says the person who takes everything a corporation says at face value.

[@ninochaosdrache3189]

So far, it seems the corporation is in the right though

[@MrRunes233]

@@ninochaosdrache3189 what’s to say a corp is not twisting the narrative like they totally could be. Everyone is taking it as fact again a lot of the topics of debate here are he said she said shit that really doesn’t mean anything. Judges have been dealing with trade secrets forever and video games are the next big thing for lawyers wanting to make the big bucks and so I would expect this to be solely based on data and substantial evidence.

[@kazearaki853]

Other channels continue to talk about this from the perspective of American legal system, Kira is the only one who is painstakingly looking this matter up from the only perspective that matters; the Korean legal system!

[@benjamin8459]

DMCA is a US copyright law, which is what was used to take down the game.

[@kazearaki853]

@@benjamin8459 It's an irrelevant sideshow wholly dependent on the result in Korea. If the Korean court later find Ironmace liable in some way, any attempt to fight back the DMCA in the US will be a waste of time since Ironmace is a Korean entity, not American. If the Korean court order it to be dissolved (not saying that it is, just an example), anything happening in the US will be irrelevant.

[@benjamin8459]

@@kazearaki853 From what has been released, the lawsuit in SK is against an individual that worked for Nexon, not Ironmace as a company, and has been ongoing since 2021. The DMCA was filed against IM by the California branch of Nexon in February and is separate from the case in SK.

[@kazearaki853]

@@benjamin8459 You either didn't watch or didn't understand the very Kira video you are replying in right now.

[@snaztw7]

​@@kazearaki853 See you on the playtest, or not.

[@Javerto]

you should make documentary about this at main channel

[@toddtaylor6506]

I think you're the only one covering this like an adult. The rest of the stuff seems to be We DoN't CaRe AbOuT wHaT aCtUaLlY hApPeNeD, bIG cOmPaNy BaD. JFC. Why people think a smaller company has to be full of saints (that it's impossible for them to be as crooked as the people they used to work for) is beyond me. Guess what, there are plenty of small businesses/business owners in the world that are assholes (used to work for one). Most of time you need to have some asshole in you just to keep your company alive.

[@joshuacline2636]

About time I been saying people should read these case for a while now, thanks you

[@Nilvarcus]

Good video again. It's nice to see someone taking an objective look at the matter instead of being all emotional about it. That NCsoft vs Bluehole case was pretty interesting to follow back in the day, especially as a massive fan of the Lineage franchise. Funnily enough, the majority of people were siding with NCsoft on that one, and Bluehole was viewed as an evil company that stole Lineage 3.

[@supasneaks]

Yeah I would love a concise and put together story behind this whole thing on your main channel. Thanks Kira - your coverage is the best. Edit: corrected "you're" to "your"

[@christophsiebert1213]

*your

[@QQleKK]

@@christophsiebert1213 i knew what the reply would be before i even opened it xd

[@supasneaks]

@@christophsiebert1213 F... thanks

[@OfficialChronicle]

I would absolutely watch the shit out of a main channel video on this whole debacle

[@akachristdawg]

tbh Kira is the only source I trust to give the truth on this subject (in English at least)

[@MrRunes233]

I recommend not taking one’s stance as fact especially when that stance gets proven to be wrong later

[@ANO-.-NYM]

Lots of people still side with Iron Mace over Nexon- due to the differences in corporation culture in the West and Korea. I think the confusion on the perception of this event is due to Korea's STRICT company IP/copyright laws. Most people in the West have lived in a very different culture regarding copyright laws and corporations here. Companies in the West regularly choose not to pursue legal action to avoid staining their image or reputation and many employees start their own companies with former staff. In Korea- non-compete clauses and corporate contracts would look very authoritarian to an American or European worker. The laws are still very corporate-minded in the West- but they take different actions in regard to IP infringement.

[@conjo8884]

there's also the fact that the philosophically speaking, western copyright doesn't protect ideas, only specific expressions of ideal; you can't copyright a cartoon mouse, but you can copyright mickey mouse. In the US, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the court decided that both parties were full of it on that standpoint, and would come down to what the fine print says.

[@Bozemoto]

@@conjo8884 Think technically mickey mouse isn't copyrighted, rather he's trade marked. Not an expert but think copyright covers copying of works, whereas trademarks cover preventing confusion of who made a product. So you can't sell an original version of mickey mouse painted on a mug cause people will think Disney made it. Might be wrong, but it's something like that.

[@herpderp728]

South Korea is an oligarchy. Of course they have laws that favor rich corporations over common workers.

[@anoonmous1775]

@@herpderp728 so is the us

[@herpderp728]

@@anoonmous1775 yes, and?

[@rhawkas2637]

So many people are just refusing to see or acknowledge any of the points you bring up on this matter simply because "Nexon bad" and they want to play more Dark and Darker.

[@VarenvelDarakus]

i'm 95% sure ironmace purposefully spreads all these fake allegations and claims in hopes it makes enough fan outrage , even if this was not even trade secrets , imagine somone else came over , remade your own game who is 1 to 1 your game and even used 40% of same assets , everyone would call it ripoff from miles away , but its same thing here plus he worked...on that first game.

[@mathiasoliveira4519]

I mean, if 40% of your assets come from the store then its fine?

[@Nico78Not]

@@mathiasoliveira4519 Which means that 60% of the assets are still stolen and Ironmace is still comitting corporate theft. And that's not refuting the fact that the original dev team left Nexon to make THE SAME GAME on their own, effectively killing P3 and ditching Nexon behind for no reason other than spite. I understand boycotting Nexon because they have a bad rep, but this ain't it chief.

[@missesyourjokes]

Yeah I hate to say it but I think I might be with the bourgeoisie on this one.

[@freedustin]

@@Nico78Not against Nexon, yeah. Definitely. Fk 'em.

[@ocoolwow]

Don't care fuck nexon

[@brianm.595]

Where do people in the US live where police are raiding all the time? It does require a warrant, some amount of evidence and a judges signature for the police to raid something. It can be gamed sure but its not everyday that your thing gets raided without any justification.

[@Demortra]

We do have a lot of no-knock raids done because people think there might be a crime, it is not like an officer has proof that a crime was done before the search as it is required to get evidence. It would be like saying you're guilty because the police searched your home even if they found nothing. Not that I think either way, just pointing out the mindset of why a police raid can mean nothing to the people of the United States.

[@shannenmr]

Creators constantly get SWATTED even when they have spoken with local Police and advised them this type of thing could be happening and to be aware / reach out before breaking the door down.

[@Slitherssss]

Kira you really stepped up and you've become an investigative journalist at this point.

[@dyalani643]

You seem to be one of the only people covering this, in English, that has looked at the information from Korea instead of just the legal filings and response.

[@entrippyZ]

i feel like this has probably happened before, only the thief was smart enough to use a flash drive and not a huge visible cloud servor.

[@Bozemoto]

You can make it so that usb sticks won't mount on work computer, can even allow-list specific usb drives to be allowed. Insurers insist on stuff like that.

[@entrippyZ]

@@Bozemoto that makes sense, so maybe flash drives arent that smart

[@OldGamesUploaded]

All the crackheads in discord saying you dog shit but keep it up man you really getting that information out that we need 🤙🏽

[@After_Pasta]

Context --- when you make a AAA game you must buy software licenses for the software used in the game itself 'developer tools etc' its likely the license used or software to create dark & darker could have been Nexons These are likely the 'trade secrets' kind of like stealing the recipe for cola

[@Toom316]

Well the trade secrets that Nexon is talking about is that Nexon paid these employees the make P3. They paid these employees hourly / salary to figure out how to put all these different parts together, to make the artwork, the time spent on designing the game from the ground up. Then the Lead man on the P3 project up and pulls a coup and takes a big portion of the dev team with him as he is fired. They then turned around and took all the knowledge on how to intergrate the systems together and what was needed to make it all work and made Dark and Darker from that. In the simplest of terms Nexon ended up paying to have Dark and Darker made as there is no way Ironmace didn't use any of the knowledge, resources, ect. that they gained while they were working on the exact same game at Nexon.

[@After_Pasta]

@@Toom316 That's what i just said

[@After_Pasta]

@@Toom316 its also likely worse than that as when we develop games we make tool packs so that we can build out levels & iterate new content quickly its highly likely dark & darker used these tools directly

[@ne0nmancer]

One of the reasons cited was that they were ordered to use store assets while making the game for Nexon, so they used those assets. When they left Ironmace and started making Dark and Darker, they used the same store assets they had already used while working for Nexon, which is the problem. Technically, even if it's a 3rd party store asset, if you were paid to make the game using those assets by Nexon, you can't make your own game using literally the same assets.

[@MrRunes233]

@@Toom316 The problem with this argument is glossing over what really happened to have him being removed Nexon says one thing IM says another we need concrete fact on that and that would set in stone what’s really happening here as that seems to be the big powder keg explosion. Following what ppl believe to be true out of the two tells me who they side with ppl need answers and can not wait patiently so they speculate from both perspectives based on past precedent set by other cases similar to this or by going off of statements not actual substantial evidence. What sucks here is we do have to get left in the dark for a bit you can speculate but I think it’s important to state it as speculation and not fact to not ruin your reputation

[@tommylakindasorta3068]

Kira, you're one of the sharpest minds in the gaming space. Gaming is lucky to have you.

[@willigangbang1659]

if thats the case, why does he misrepresent the arguments then, nothing stolen was found so far, he takes Nexon claims always as facts to construe that Ironmace is in the wrong, also he leaves out all the (weak) arguments that Nexon so far presented to substanciate their claims

[@AnkaaAvarshina]

@@willigangbang1659 you sure we watch the same videos? You sure we follow the same situation? Or are you just that desperate for Ironmace to end up in the right even if a tiny bit of incrimination ends up in their direction?

[@willigangbang1659]

@@AnkaaAvarshina if you cant make a sensible statement, just leave it there, im not here to answer bs questions- go take Nexons arguments serious and quote their DMCA paper, would be nice to have some reality here instead taking weak anonymous sources and their claims as facts like this guy

[@thecloudywizard]

This has been very interesting to follow. I would be very interested in seeing a deep dive of the whole story. Also glad to see someone analyze further then surface level with a "little guys good" and corpos bad" conclusion.

[@Mitozzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz]

fvck big greedy corpos I will always root for the small guys I dont care if they stole sh!t. Would you root for robin hood or the fvcked up greedy tax collectors that sleep on gold but still wanna bleed you dry? Just ask yourself that question and see where you stand in life. Theres nothing to "anaylze further" it's that simple. This guy just sh!ts out content for yt dollars.

[@Zelcarby]

Thanks for expanding on the Tera comparison that was some wild information to learn all these years later!

[@cyphre]

I'm not so sure it will go the same way. Much of software legislation has evolved to adapt to the times, so they will actually have to prove their code exists within this other game. Whether by actual examples, filed copyrights, or filed patents. Either way, it should be an interesting case!

[@thomasnorman5978]

F*ck Nexon, but it is good to view these things from an objective standpoint. If a crime was committed, someone should be held responsible for it. Kinda funny that presumably some folks at ironmace knew they were working with stolen material, yet didn't find it necessary to start lawyering up *before* the sh!t hit the fan. Will be a shame if the game gets shut down, but whatcha gonna do? Quality vid as always!

[@qunningStunts]

As the famous legendary philosopher Sammy Davis Jr. once relayed..."Don't do the crime...if you can't do the time"

[@looots1320]

Fck Nexon yes, but Ironmace already got funding from Tencent while working for Nexon.. then switching to Tencent so even if DnD comes out it's gonna be Tencent backing

[@jamesflames6987]

F*ck Nexon. They are all scum. All the programmers = scum. All the artists = scum. Janitors = scum. Their families = scum. F*ck them all.

[@iyyi331]

Maybe its just an asian thing but I still don't get the whole "big corporate=bad" mentality. I mean technically they are only that big and greedy because people keep giving them all that money are they not? Many small companies also do shady things all the time too. They just don't get posted on the front page in big bold letters for everyone to see.

[@KomboEzaliTe]

Woke mindvirus, they've been pushing "corpos bad, small business good" for decades. Part of the long-game so they could weaken businesses to the point that they have to take hedge fund/Blackrock ESG money.

[@Faithinhim7]

People just need to grow up. They broke the law and did so seemingly knowingly. I will never understand why people stand up for people they have never met in their lives. They could be a bunch of assholes but just because they're making a game you wana play and it's the big bad corpo man on the other side you all think it's some kind of holy war. The world doesn't work that way it's a seriously naïve and immature way of thinking.

[@Mark-vr7pt]

From my point of view lead leaving and taking the team with him is pretty normal where I live. Of course it only happens if a team has a good relationship with the lead, but still.

[@abakedpotato1486]

Kira is the only person reporting this from an unbiased perspective. Even charlie was heavily biased

[@MrRunes233]

Everyone and I mean Everyone is biased no matter how hard you try just some have far less biases then others and those are the ppl for example they choose for jury duty

[@Umcarasemvideo]

3:16 You're conflating two different thing to make the argument here. Swating is a very different thing, unless the Koran police was busting down IroMaces doors with rifles the proccess is very similar. Swatting is using the threat of imminent death/violence to get the police to do a fast response raid not serve a sort of search warrant. Police raid places all the time, all over the world and they find nothing very frequently.

[@21palica]

I stand by my comment on the first video you posted about this "Dark and Darker" clusterfcuk, that if "Ironmace" was trying to get the community on their side by falsely presenting their position as a David vs. Goliath one, knowing they were guilty, that should be used against them if this ever goes to trial. It is a character statement about "Ironmace's" management, implying they can't be trusted. P.S. If you plan on making a video about this for the main channel, maybe wait until the charges stick, and a trial becomes just a matter of time. (Because you can then make many more update videos about new evidence that pop up during the trial, and the way it unfolds etc...get them clicks, Kira! LOL)

[@ThirsttyRecon]

Regardles of whether you hate Nexon or not it is important that we do not condone acts (if proven) such as what IM might have been doing. Think of this is any other industry. You can't just work for a company and use their RND resources to design and test game systems in a paid and safe environment and then quit and cause the Original project to fail and then immediately start your own company with said project as a competitor. Anti competition laws are a thing for a reason. People are too caught up in the David Vs Goliath story and how they should defend indie at all costs.

[@_B_E]

@@johnwayne4911 Well apparently the concept of non-compete agreements is unheard of by the vast majority of the Ironmace diehards, so it seems like it's worth repeating.

[@Chris____.]

Holy shit, thats one hell of a fucking Plottwist, the villain becomes their biggest trumpcard.

[@OldManInternet]

Appreciate the effort covering this. Also, this video reminded me how much I enjoyed Tera and Warhammer, and I wish things had gone differently for those games...

[@blarghmcblarghson1903]

"I went to prison for this exact same shit, you think I'm going to let you off scot-free?" The inadvertently made it personal. Whoops.

[@dawudsandstorm7852]

Dude, the situation with Blue Hole was entirely different, they explicitly leaked the assets and then blatantly reused them in their project. With Ironmace there was no leak and they used assets that they either made, or were bought off of the Unity marketplace and afterward modified. This is comparing apples to oranges.

[@r3zaful]

The best way to explain it in analogy 1. You pay someone to build a renting hause and he agreed 2. You bought the materials and he start building 3. He is being intentionally bad to screw your hause construction 4. You fire him 5. In the next day he make the same hause that you made, your new constructor doesn't know what is the original model of the hause. If i were you I would absolutely pissed with that kind of behavior.

[@indicaflower5996]

@@r3zaful So your point is someone who makes game like FPS genre have to abandon completly that genre cause it will be classified as copium if they switch compagny?

[@OtherlingQueen]

Yong-Heyong has one crazy character ark

[@MegaMooer]

I had seen in another video (which i cant freaking find...) an individual working at Nexon, in a statement about the entire situation, said the cancellation of the project was dated before the mass exodus of the company by the team. It said first the dude was fired, then the project was cancelled, and THEN the team left. I'm wondering, IF that is true, how would that affect the case? I take all info with a full shaker of salt so I don't necessarily think this timeline is correct, but I hope it is if it gives Dark and Darker a better case. Additionally, we still have no information about how Project P3 plays, so I'm holding out hope that Dark and Darker is different enough. But thank you for continually being a voice of reason saying how the case could go should the allegations be true.

[@_B_E]

Honestly, i don't think it really effects the case at all. Extraneous details and a muddy timeline still doesn't stop all the actual important allegations from being true or false. Nexon don't seem to be very eager to appeal to the public and show their hand like Ironmace does, and there's likely a lot going on legally on Nexon's side of things that we won't know unless the situation properly goes to court. I don't think it's out of the question to think that the DMCA only covered the bare necessities to get it taken off Steam.

[@ewanhoo]

That's a direct contradiction to Nexon's claim as they say it was suspended after they left. I mean obviously that makes more sense since it was most of the P3 team that left. In any case the burden of proof is on Nexon and prosecutors to prove data from the server was used to make Dark and Darker and it doesn't have to be source code, "trade secrets" under the UNFAIR COMPETITION PREVENTION AND TRADE SECRET PROTECTION ACT is fairly broad.

[@EvilAnomaly]

I love how fans til this day run around in Twitch chats bringing up this subject convinced and just knowing that Nexon has no case. It's obvious they have fan blinders on and haven't bothered even remotely trying to look into the details of this situation. They just want social media points by showing how they side with the studio! They're likely in for a rude awakening when the legal results come in.

[@kirareacts]

funny, right?

[@Lenariet]

A good bunch of them will not accept such legal results. People have been doing some amazing mental gymnastics on a whole lot of topics in the past, they will 100% do that here too. And if it's just something like "The law is rigged! Nexon won only because they have more money!" or some yadda yadda like that.

[@chrisblake4198]

One thing I learned during the fall of City of Heroes and the attempts to get rights or caretaker status from NCSoft- Korean companies do not mess around.

[@MK_ULTRA420]

Both Koreas are equally unhinged; they're the same race.

[@mysideacc2770]

thanks for covering this situation so much kira! i avoid english news coverage of stuff happening in the non-english speaking world since it seems like the more mainstream it is the more inaccurate it gets, but it's hard to understand everything as a non-korean. you're one of the few people i trust to cover this thing.

[@legrestti]

11:25 hahahahahah WTF... This series is absolutly insane.. netflix cant compare with this xD

[@midimusicforever]

I think it's awesome that you cover this fairly!

[@silverwing4153]

I hate Nexon. For many reasons. Doesn't mean ironmace isn't in the wrong. But sad to see Dark and darker may never come out.

[@112-DavidL]

I would love to see a Deep Dive when this situation is over whether in favour of Nexon or Iron Mace. a Deep dive would be worth a good watch

[@mrbubbles6468]

That’s moreorless what Kira is doing here

[@itweeb4765]

Has anyone hit up moistcritical on stream about kira's take on this? He's usually pretty level-headed and willing to give things a second look.

[@ph03nixflame]

As much as I hate to hear it, this is some damn good coverage. Thanks for the content.

[@teinmeizeshi5209]

Really weird how a Robin Hood mindset could be so popular on the internet, somehow people think it's OK to steal as long as it's from a big company.

[@pinopalotta]

And I agree in this case because Nexon is a shit company and should be robbed blind

[@JiveBoogie]

Thing is, now that everyone knows that there is good money to be made. Eventually, we could get a very similar game, but not from Nexon or Ironmace.

[@nomas5082]

Thanks for the great research. Sadly it seems like most people dont care about facts or the truth these days.

[@Canopusxiii]

I just wanna live my dream of becoming a wizard and stealing peoples shit in a dungeon, I need Dark and Darker

[@jmcke802]

I just want to play more Dark and Darker! Some dev is going to come and pick up the pieces and build a clone.

[@dichebach]

WTF!? The CEO of Nexon was found criminally guilty of an almost identical crime that is alleged for the lead at Iron Mace!? THAT is almost unbelievable! Is this some strange cultural norm in Korean game development culture!?

[@user-pj4xq3vy6u]

It is more like IM tried to become a 2nd Bluehole without knowing what they are dealing with. 😂 Mr.A was not even a competent director like the former L3 director.

[@pberci93]

I would really like you to cover the Frogware-NACON debacle as a contrast to this story.

[@bogdankl2000]

it's almost like, stealing is bad, even when the little guy steals from a big guy, crazy miright?

[@everythingpony]

No?

[@idgfs]

Guess the tea party was a bad idea.

[@MrRunes233]

That couldn’t be more wrong and when ppl steal food to not go hungry because they are children that can not work and their parents are drug addicts for example so they are trapped and don’t want to be put into the system just food for thought everything is situational and context most definitely matters don’t set generals as this is dangerously misleading

[@Lenariet]

Well, look how fervently some defend software piracy, that it presumably always were morally okay. Or how some hate company XYZ but still want to play ABC, so that piracy supposedly were the only reasonable course of action. Because apparently we gamers are entitled to gaming everything we want, no matter what? Yeah, says who? This is a luxury hobby, not an existential human right. Some people truly need to touch some grass. Yet they get celebrated for their silly attitudes in their echo chambers on Twitter and sh*t, because hurr durr "me small person showing evil big company middle finger, me good, me hero." Sounds more like some kind of pretentious, narcisstic unicorn syndrome to me as it sadly many seem to show nowadays.

[@Cybio]

Yeah super interested in this story, can't wait to see the outcome.

[@gaijinkuri684]

Once things progress more would love to get a deep dive.

[@FranNyan]

This is turning out to be a proper little soap opera drama, innit?

[@jessaminehaak8253]

Dang... this is starting to seem like a villain vs villain anime arc lmfao. That CEO must be thinking "these guys aren't even nearly on my level... amateurs" XD

[@leylinacustoms]

I swear kira and asmongold are the only people on the internet that can talk about things without being completely blinded by emotions and preconceptions and biases

[@ramrodwilly]

Agreed. Kira and Asmon are a better investment of my watch/listen time these days.

[@looots1320]

yeah true, I wouldn't have known that DnD went to Tencent for backing and got it btw that's how he convinced some of his co-workers to leave Nexon and join his new game

[@SgtSplatts]

7,200,000,000 KRW is about $5,500,000 U.S., in case anyone was curious.

[@Primal2229]

I actually miss TERA. It wasnt "good" but it was fun once every year or so.

[@westernbrumby]

Officially spent more time watching this dark and darker drama than I would have ever played it

[@Darkwolfe73]

Great vid, and interesting. Would love to see it on the main chan.

[@BeyondTilted]

Mr choi will be sent to prison. The rest of ironmace will be fine. That’s what this comparison suggests

[@Sniperbear13]

so there is some prescient. Ironmace is looking more and more in danger.

[@AZodiacCancer]

I didnt even know about this game until all the drama started, spicy.

[@Dylan_Otto]

Damn, Kira, u’re slowly but surely turning into the Coffeezilla of the game/tech industry like Upper Echelon. Amazing impartial work as always!

[@Bluejanza]

Ironmace went ahead with another test. They said on their twitter for people to torrent their game.

[@DutchMaster013]

It's definitely a shitty situation that dark and darker will most likely be lost to the shadow realm but props for looking at the evidence objectively instead of coping in denial. I know we would all like to see a shitty mega Corp like Nexon come up empty and be defeated by the small indy studio but the facts are the facts and they don't look very good for ironmace.

[@cvbabc]

Great, great video Kira! Fantastic research - and I don't even play MMORPGs. LOL

[@UnreasonableOpinions]

I see no context in which Dark and Darker is permitted to release short of a magical christmasland sized payout to n behalf of the devs to Nexon.

[@cleatus232]

Don’t make problems or people get upset. The original business owns the ip, any employees are privy to work there. If they leave they leave the idea, story and any other perks that come with working there.

[@only4hw]

Take us deeper Kira!

[@bjorn-falkoandreas9472]

I remember that drama. Has it already been over 10 years?

[@spooky_zen]

lovin this arcf so interesting what chad sent prison and now es ceo

[@gsdtdeaux7]

Not gunna lie, its going to be kinda fun watching a lot of the yt’ers that were just saying nexon was bullying and they are shit etc pull their foot out of their mouth lol

[@idgfs]

Yeah because Korean Law isnt another form of bullying in itself lol. These incompetent companies run talent away because they are so inefficient. Hilarious that they left and did in a year what they could never achieve with literal unlimited resources.

[@snaztw7]

Yeah either side is gonna have a hayday when the dust settles. Go Ironmace

[@gsdtdeaux7]

@@snaztw7 i may have misunderstood what he said or got a little confused but it definitely sounded like ironmace is in the wrong.

[@snaztw7]

@@gsdtdeaux7 Usually when youre taken to court, people assume you're guilty. Ironmace might be in the wrong, but we'll have to see. I think the company and DaD is fine, but the CEO might be burned.

[@capadociaash8003]

@@snaztw7 whether people think you’re guilty or innocent depends entirely on if they like you or you’re from a group they like. In this case Ironmace is a small game studio, a group people like while Nexon is a large game studio, a group people dislike.

[@CodenameDoubleL7]

People are still thinking it's just unity assets LoL

[@maidenmoar]

I was really excited for dark and darker. Nexon is for sure going to end them. 🤦🏾‍♂️

[@EFFOFFUn]

Kira still needs to read Jeremy's list of shit in chronicles of failure

[@dave1317]

Would be tragic to have that game get destroyed in some legal battle it is a very fun game.

[@DarkandDolan]

Sorry Kira, but you’re incorrect. P3 was canceled *before* the team left, but after Mr. Choi was fired. Here are direct quotes taken from Nexon’s own DMCA complaint: “Nexon began developing a new tirst-person shooter role-playing game ("FFS. RPG game") also known as the P3 Game under the P3 Project in August 2020. For 11 months until *July* 2021” “Additionally, Terence Seungha Park was a former director of game development at Nexon and the head of the sub-team for the P3 Project. At Nexon, he worked on the P3 Game with Ju-Hyun Choi and other Nexon employees who later joined Ironmace. Shortly after Ju-Hyun Choi was dismissed from Nexon, Terence Park left Nexon on *August* 9, 2021” “Less than two months *after* Terence Park left Nexon and only months after Ju-Hyun Choi left Nexon, Terence Park founded Ironmace on *October* 20, 2021. Ju-Hyun Choi joined Ironmace shortly thereafter as its Managing Director. Choi is widely believed to be the controlling shareholder of Ironmace and has been actively engaged in fundraising efforts for the company. *Ten* out of twenty three P3 Project team members *left* Nexon and most are believed to be currently working at Ironmace.” They canceled in *July* and all but one person left after *August* Edit: The game was “canned” or “put on hold” indefinitely as team members were moved around to other projects in July, but only fully cancelled later on; if we are to believe the sources that claim this. Still, Kira, you left out this important context and ironically criticize me for doing the same.

[@user-pj4xq3vy6u]

Yes. The development was stoped since the ditector was gone, but cancelled when half of the team left. IM can argue that they were left because the project was stoped as you suppose. The showcase of P3 where the P3 video was from was held August 5, by the way.

[@DarkandDolan]

@@user-pj4xq3vy6u Many projects continue after losing one member. It says it right there “Terence park was the head leader of P3”. He was still there, with the rest of the team, after they had stopped development. It was showcased at the game exhibit because they likely made a commitment to bring something to show, and pulling out would probably look bad.

[@kirareacts]

What you're quoting does not say what you said it does. The development was halted. It wasn't shelved or cancelled until after the team left. This is even presented in an internal nexon memo from their legal team. You're adding in context that doesn't exist in the quotes you're using as if it does. The project was frozen while they performed interviews and figured out what happened, then they fired the project leader and then while figuring out what to do, 2 months later half the team left. Nothing in the quotes you gave says they cancelled the game in that time. And nexon's internal legal memo states otherwise with direct information. This is purely a stretch at best and twisting at worst.

[@DarkandDolan]

@@kirareacts Even your previous video, which you presented as a reliable source states: “In most cases, developers decide to quit the company after their project is *canned* “ (P3) “As a result, the director got disciplinary dismissal, some of the team members quit and others were moved” Put on hold and canceled surely aren’t the same thing, so please specify that instead of making it sound like everyone quit for some mysterious reason and that’s ultimately what killed the project. Some projects get put on hold indefinitely, and I’m sure any dev can attest that it’s effectively a cancellation. If I’m guilty of twisting or being selective with information, I guess we’re on the same sinking ship.

[@MrRunes233]

@@DarkandDolan funny he isn’t responding to you almost like he knows you nailed this and caught his hand in the cookie jar.

[@HimslGames]

Why are all the thumbnails tweets now?