The Power of Incentives - How Games Help Us Examine Our World - Extra Credits

Games are uniquely suited as a medium to teach us about how our world works. By emulating incentive systems and allowing the player to explore and make their own mistakes, games can change people's minds - in some cases, better than a sermon or lecture on the subject could. As a medium, games can both comment on our society and help us recognize faulty systems all around us.
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[@FeCyrineu]

This is an great topic. I heard an indie game in development named Yes, Your Grace. It's a pitty that it seens it entered development hell, but it had a cool concept. You are a king, and want the best for your people, but it's not that simple. To be able to defend your kingom from bandits, moster and such, you need armies, and armies cost money, and money comes from taxes, and the commoners are alredy struggling due to a shortage of food. Decisions like this would make a very interesting game.

[@ZimmervisionCZ]

This sounds incredible. I think there's also the factor of that army being killed and that drawing on the very citizenry you intend to make happy. I would quite enjoy such a game.

[@fugitiveunknown7806]

They did tried to do something like that in Fable 3, but like a lot of other things in that game, they fucked it up.

[@pogo575]

Crusader Kings 2 is all that and more.

[@FeCyrineu]

pogo575 Yeah, CK2 is cool in regards to politics, but in regards to economy and things like such, it's not that great.

[@Taihouchan]

really sounds like Democracy 3 but Medieval Edition :D

[@allaroundergeek2967]

This year, in Mexico, the government decided to double the amount of days your can't drive, due to higher smog... We learnt nothing.

[@kobinpaizlimona9088]

Lol (i feel you bro)

[@sergiowinter5383]

I thought they would make drivers wear lucha libre masks in traffic, that would be better.

[@Koops2245]

Gosh... real life needs a patch ASAP~

[@CornishCreamtea07]

But then you won't be able to have fun with the games exploits.

[@rebelbeammasterx8472]

Better buff diddy.

[@jimmykeffer7401]

+LeoBattlerOfSinsX84 and nerf Greninja

[@Thanoric]

Wait for the DLC. Too bad most won't be able to afford it.

[@uber-box640]

Ebola op, Plz nerf.

[@samuelbaugh4952]

Huh. I thought they would be talking about good reward systems in Video Games, like a JRPG superboss dropping the best equipment in the game upon death, or getting a special ending sequence if you get 100% of items, and not about Social Politics.

[@Voiced]

Extra Credits has shifted focus from "actual video game design in the industry" to "applying game design to social justice/political issues" for a while now.

[@ferdousalrafi6126]

+Voiced they talked about social politics from the early days. The first extra-credits video(the one by dan, don't ask me which dan) is about woman or something like that.

[@Voiced]

***** Maybe I just came in when they had a period of not doing that, or I am mis-remembering videos. but it definitely feels more prevalent than it used to be...

[@PCzDan]

I can understant that. Game designers deal with people, behavior, expectation and engagement. They must have a lot of ideas for society, but are ignored because they're just "toy makers". I do miss some more game-focused analyses though

[@ferdousalrafi6126]

PCzDan​ 50 years down the line they won't be considered "toymakers" anymore.

[@yoavsigler4457]

Papers Please is a great example. You slowly realize how thinking about your customers and clients doesn't pay off. If someone doesn't bring out the passport or tickets, you *could* ask them to get them out, sure, but it's way more profitable to just deny them without an explanation, it's legal and they have no way to object and you get to process more people.

[@extrahistory]

Our world is run by incentives, and games are the perfect tool for showing us how.

[@-aaa-aaa]

ayyyyyyyyyyyy

[@88ights]

I love you guys.

[@josephmartinez7321]

It says you posted the comment 5 hours ago, in that five hours is that the video uploading?

[@djprogramer973]

That was such an inspirational video. I thought virtual reality would just become another game system but now that I see that companies are really trying to push to integrate it in other ways and after watching this video, virtual reality may just become good life changer that I've been waiting for my whole life.

[@fhopedude]

Wouldn't this be counteracting the point you made in your propaganda in video games video? How exactly would you differentiate between propaganda and a simplified system?

[@andrewcleary9952]

1:32 Yes Dan, we know you beat Dark Souls and we're all terribly proud of you.

[@TheUnspokenKibbles]

My favorite example of this? HunieCam Studio, the spiritual successor to HuniePop. On the surface it's a cutesy resource management/clicking-on-things-repeatedly game, but when you start to get into it you realize it's an examination of the cynical attitudes bred into the sex industry and the damage it does to those who work in it. I don't know who is making these games, but they've got some serious chops.

[@paytonholmes6019]

+Zoe Papillon doesn't that apply to lead based paint only?

[@TheUnspokenKibbles]

Yo Momma HuniePop certainly subverts a number of the established tropes of the dating sim genre, including a surprisingly deep central puzzle mechanic. I wouldn't call it a satire by any means, but it's definitely more complex than your average poorly-disguised-porn-em-up.

[@Contenterful]

Any point you might have (and to be fair, you do) is buried under that condescending tone and/or attitude of treating them like they're seven. I mean, was it REALLY necessary?!

[@Necroskull388]

+Zoe Papillon Holy shit, are you literally a bond villain? I don't think I've ever met someone as ridiculous as you. It's quite entertaining.

[@PlaystationMasterPS3]

one could also see Huniepop as an analysis of pick-up artresty. I've even referred to it as "Asshole simulator" in the past

[@MateusAntonioBittencourt]

I'm clapping... This is by far the best episodes you guys have ever done. It's explains what incentives are, give examples of not thinking trough them and getting unwanted consequences, and how games can use them as a teaching tool. The most blatant and yet most people don't recognized about bad incentives is with raising children... 100% of parents at some point gave "rewards" t their children so they would stop crying, or making a scene in public or to just make them stop asking for it... If done regularly it teaches the child that if he behaves that way he gets a reward. - - - - - Only thing I think you should have mentioned is the other side... bad punishments... and maybe you guys can make a video on that. For example in some countries, if someone calls an ambulance or take someone to a hospital and that person can't pay their medical bill, the person who call or took them there is responsible for them. This creates a environment where people don't call for ambulances or help strangers for fear of having to pay their bills. Or like the cops in my city that created an environment where it's better for any criminal to kill cops on site them to let them live, doesn't matter the situation.

[@huwguyver4208]

I had an interesting 'incentives' moment like this with Fallout 4 (spoiler-free). My first character was on one of the regular modes, and I usually took the goody-two shoes options because that is generally how I like to play. In that play-through I had an opportunity to kill some strangers for money and I turned it down and continued with the game. When survival mode launched things were, unsurprisingly, significantly harder and I found myself continually scrounging for money and resources, especially water. And this time when that same opportunity came up, I took the money and killed these strangers. This wasn't me making a conscious decision to play as a "bad guy" for my survival character, it was a decision that came from the mechanics of the game making my character (and therefore me) desperate for money and resources, a situation that was immediately alleviated by the dodgy decision I made. Of course, like most people I know intellectually that extreme poverty makes people more likely to turn to crime, but to have a comparable scenario simulated in a game was still a pretty fascinating experience that no other medium could really pull off.

[@Window_Hero]

6:00 Except a coal fired plant is and always will be way more efficient than an internal combustion engine, additionally green energy sources will be available on large, power plant scale before they will ever be portable, if they are ever made portable at all, and electric cars will be able to take advantage of that right away. Not the point of the video, I know, but still very much worth pointing out.

[@Twhylight1]

A game that I feel does this well is Game Dev Tycoon. When you start the game you are one person just making games, trying out new things for the hell of it with limited systems but as you make your first hit, you start to serialise it and by the time you reach AAA standards you are now pumping out sequel after remake of successful games and failing to innovate just to stay afloat with your company. I just hated the fact that after you realise this it gives insight into the nature of a company to make money, if they see something work, they go for it.

[@TurtleFlowerboi]

Civilization 5 was also a great example of how real world incentives work , It was so hard not going to war and the playthroughs I didn't go to war on first I would just wipe out the civilization anyway ;sometimes turning everyone else against them with diplomacy ( looking at you U.N) or crippled their trade so they could never attack my "peaceful" & cultured society.

[@RandomNameName]

And sometimes you endup in bankrupt, because fucking Attila is your neighbor and that fucker the only thing he is good at is starting a war....

[@Messilegend1000]

+El Spooky How do I get Prison Architect, Civilisations 5?

[@RandomNameName]

Tois Sin Cera Steam Summer Sales

[@Kuro_kon]

offworld trading company is also a good one.

[@fleshhunter8703]

Normally...Civ 5 is a bad example because...Their isn't enough to consider normally

[@Taragoola]

I sat here watching this while my two year old daughter yelled "Hey, Dan! Dan! Take this!" while trying to shove a little toy pirate into the laptop screen. Apparently we've been watching more Extra Credits together than I'd thought.

[@icecreambone]

the loss of health coverage going from unemployed to meagerly employed should really be stressed more because the poverty level itself is calculated based on outdated estimates of the cost of living where the cost of healthcare is not nearly as high, and minimum wage isnt scaled to ANYTHING

[@SkobbeJakGames]

Just want to say, WOW! What an awesome channel, so much insight into game psychology, mechanics and narrative and how it all connects to create a cohesive and personal experience. As an Indie Dev in South Africa this channel is truly invaluable, even though we discovered you only a few days ago we've already learnt so much. We were actually thinking of a subject recently that could be quite interesting to investigate and that is power vs. powerlessness. We learn so much from films, music and books in terms of working show and tell into our games but all of those mediums, while they can have an empowering message or mood, are still static and passive experiences that leave the audience at a powerless state, I mean you can argue that in terms of sequels or market research for new experiences that the audience as a whole has some kind of "meta" form of control but with all those other mediums when the experience is right there in front of you to actually experience its static, which ultimately makes it a passive and powerless interaction, again not saying that the message these mediums can bring cant be empowering. Games can play with this dynamic in exciting and interesting ways between making the player/audience feel empowered and powerless and make them experience stories and experiences in different ways and in turn learn more about themselves not just in reflection from passive characters or experiences but from active decisions and lack of decisions. We just think that that the fact that games have that element of power over the outcome of a situation and/or story, that no other medium really has, gives it at least that element of working with power, of course too much power isnt a good thing either but its that balance that can create something beautiful and it would be great for this sentiment to become a little bit more talked about as it is one of the things that sets games apart from other mediums and it is something that the general public also needs to start to understand if we want this medium to become the respected art form that we want it to become in terms of the general public's eye. Again, awesome channel keep doing what your doing and we will keep tuning in :)

[@jordansean18]

I've been campaigning for a basic income as a means of simplifying welfare for quite a while now... thank you guys for addressing one of the aspects that is hardest to explain and also most crucial :)

[@anonymousdratini]

Hey, guys! That cobra at 1:32 beat Dark Souls

[@SailorIda3]

Im not a designer, coder, producer or anything of that sort. Im just a person who enjoys to play games and write stories. But despite not having a job in this field, or even considering having one I must say that your videos are really good for me to improve. I have noticed that i start to think more criticle about my games, thinking in a new way while writing my stories. It honestly helps me improve both as a consumer and a writer who enjoys to creat new worlds for my self. I really apreciate your videos and the hard work you all do. Well done and thanks for helping me and others :)

[@brunoais]

As a prison architect player. I can really agree with you. The game makes it really hard to keep all of them happy and keeping the money coming in at the same time. If gangs exist, however, it becomes nigh impossible... For real!

[@oversimulated9097]

This dovetails nicely with the episode about the danger of gamification -- incentives are a powerful behavioral tool. In the microcosm of games, they can help direct the player's focus, while in the real world, they can be used to accomplish a cultural result.

[@JordanYee]

I am deeply saddened by how many comments are complaining about how politicized this game design video is. People that believe this is proposing propaganda in game design not only managed to miss the point of this video, but completely subvert its meaning...

[@MrRingworld]

This is sort of on topic, When i was first starting to get intersted in history. I would play games like Harts of Iron I would then just build all the factory. Then i would run out of fuel and then i would have to make economic deals with nations like nations I did not want to deal with just to fulfill my quota then before long i found my self having to suck up to nations i did not like, or attack weak nations and take their stuff... After that I began to understand the resource war aspect of our world.

[@AnstonMusic]

So, in effect, the title could be: "Games Exemplify Game Theory" No surprise there. Great episode though. :D

[@Dekunutcase]

This concept is good in theory, but we are still restricted by the rules and biases of a video game. Let's take that car pollution game example. A game developer could have just as easily not realized that the pollution would not go down and implemented that the pollution numbers in the game do go down when the cars are all electric. It is good when a game developer does think their game through to all logical conclusions, but developers are humans, too like the rest of us, each with their own views, biases and unintentional consequences built into their work.

[@archwing3441]

I really enjoyed this video, but I wanted to say the same thing as MWestover. I feel like this could easily lead to propaganda.

[@Cythil]

Do agree there. Switch to electric would likely reduce pollution a fair bit anyway just because is more efferent in general. (But money might be better spent elsewhere. I am sure it a problem one have to look at on a case by case bases.) But that is why should have a critical view of all media. Even games. Especially games. Games do not hit you over the head with there message (most of the time. Especially not the good ones.) So one need to be extra sceptical to what the message of a game is. Not to mention that games have a unintended message sent out to it audience simple because game designers sometimes fail to with there incentives. But games are also very good at engaging people in way other media often can't.

[@ferdousalrafi6126]

We should try our best to filter out propaganda/bias/whatever when we learn something.

[@PCzDan]

what I think is important is to engage people into the problem e into discussions about it. As soon as someone mentioned this game, someone else would claim it's an imperfect simulation. But what if the solution from the game IS correct? And if not, why? What ELSE can be done? It's far much better than people not caring at all

[@ferdousalrafi6126]

PCzDan kindq like these videos. They are not perfect and there's bias and personal views show up from time to time but they give us something to think and talk about.

[@MrBlahblhblah]

6:12 The game "Thoughts and Prayers" is also an eye opening experience kinda because of the same reasons as this video

[@kenblaney7031]

Incentive systems *are* value judgments, especially in a simulated world that has an intended player experience. Errant Signal makes a really good case for this talking about how Sim City's incentives make a value judgement that large cities are inherently better than rural towns or how Civilization's win states basically reflect American notions of success as a nation.

[@royceaxle5749]

I’m really surprised you didn’t mention “Papers Please” It’s a really good example of a game that’s essentially built around this topic.

[@JoeProgram]

Recettear is an excellent example of this. You naturally end up engaging in profiling, price gouging, and favoritism as you try and keep your item shop open. It changed the way I think about stores.

[@blackdemon250]

I love that this has been brought up. We seem to be run by incentives and therefore, games, are a really good way for people to learn about the world. I think schools should have something like this in general, so we can be educated about how incentives have a large part of everything we do in our lives.

[@B0chkata]

Great episode as always. I"d just like to add that Papers Please is another great example of a game that allows the player to feel the pull of morally dubious yet realistic incentives, though it is less subtle and contemporary then Prison Architect

[@markeyboi6545]

Great video! As a game developer myself I love your channel even the non-game related history videos!

[@StepBackHistory]

I love how the criticism of the old welfare system is basically an argument for basic income.

[@Bedinsis]

This takes me back to when I played Civilization 4 on the Earth map and automated my workers, and saw them happily chopping away at the Amazonian rain forest. Because the politics I had chosen made that the most viable tile improvement. That was a sobering moment.

[@Eclyptical]

It's funny because I've always thought about these things on a small scale, like giving your dog a treat to do a trick is an incentive, but i never thought about how governments do the same thing with it's citizens. I guess they really do make the world go round.

[@MatthewCampbell765]

IIRC, with electric cars, the CO2 released from charging them is much less than what a gasoline car uses. On a side note, I played Democracy once, and I can say that I can see why politicians act the way they do at times.

[@101jir]

While that may or may not be the case, it does dramatically increase our reliance on electricity, so even if it were less polluting now, it will only add yet another roadblock when it comes to reforming how we get our electricity.

[@dstarr3]

You also have to consider the pollution made by manufacturing a vehicle, which can be often be the most pollutive part of a car's lifespan. Typically a car has already done most of the environmental damage it's going to do before it even hits the sales floor. So if you tell everyone, hundreds of millions of people, to go buy a new electric car, you have to build all those cars, which can be pretty devastating to the planet.

[@Rc3651]

It depends on how the electricity is being generated. Charging an electric car in some areas leads to a decrease in CO2, while charging them in others can actually lead to an increase. I believe Wyoming is a state where using an electric car is actually worse for the environment. Even if your region's energy mix tends towards renewables instead of coal fired power plants, electric cars are pretty cost inefficient in terms of CO2 reductions. There are lots of small changes you can make around your house that would have a more meaningful impact for the money spent. For instance, one of the most cost effective environmental changes that you can make is simply upgrading your house windows from single pane to double pane. In fact, pretty much all of the best environmental action happens in building code meetings, where they decide on the regulations for any future buildings that will be built. That's where they work out the details on what kind of windows the building must have, how insulated the walls are, what color the roof is, etc. They're painfully dull meetings that would put any normal person in a boredom coma, so you'll pretty much never hear about them, but that's where all of the biggest lasting changes are being made

[@yesimstuntdude]

But people don't just throw away their old cars, they sell them to other people who sell them to other people who sell them to other people who eventually run them into the ground until they've reached the end of their life and are no longer worth repair costs. The only way the number of cars being manufactured would increase in your example is if either the average number of cars per person increases, or the lifetime of new cars decreases. Also it'd be nice to see a source for the claim that "typically a car has already done most of the environmental damage it's going to do before it even hits the sales floor."

[@101jir]

Rc3651 Your examples of making a more meaningful impact also depend on various factors. For example, a wood burning furnace is not nearly as bad for the environment as either propane or electricity. Though I would say that nuclear power is pretty misleading, in that most statistics are based on a working factor. The problem is that you are increasing reliance on electric power regardless, and in the case of nuclear even a few disasters, rare as they are, totally wreak havoc with the environment. Hydroelectric is the only one that is really "clean," (not perfectly, but relatively speaking) of the stand-alone existing options. Of course, not everyone can use it.

[@MorseCodeStutters]

This channel is perfect for me. I've always had philosophical views on video games and I love the variety of topics you guys cover relating to video games.

[@missedthebandwagon976]

When I have kids I plan to watch videos like this one and all of Extra History with them. That'd be fun and I could talk to them about our world.

[@isaacthek]

AFDC was NOT a part of the social security agency (SSA). It was created by the social security ACT (which created the agency) but was administered by the department for Health and Human Services (HHS), the bureau that contained SSA until the mid 90's.

[@NickHuntingtonKlein]

What they're describing in the video are economic models, repackaged in more fun forms. So if this interests you, there's a whole world out there of these kinds of models.

[@pabscoello]

I did not expected to see "Hoy no circula" in an EC video. That is a great example!

[@Khae.]

He caught'd you, bro. Them snakes be adorbls!

[@sherifelgamal8686]

Just came across the channel few days back, can't get enough of it! just want to say great work!

[@timepaintertunebird8160]

Age of Empires really made me think about an organization's resources differently. Sometimes having more isn't as important as having the right balance.

[@special_stardust]

its great how sometimes you sound like youre talking from the perspective of a person in the industry, which you are, to an actual personified game, or at least that how it sounds to me sometimes its great

[@offmetagamer5887]

I know I'm going to get flamed hard for this, but a really interesting example of exploring incentives can be found in Undertale which explores how far people are willing to go to see everything in a game. *Raises flame shield*

[@IThinkSoMaybe]

These problems with welfare still exist everyday I am surrounded by children and families trapped in poverty because if they were to work and try to get out of poverty their benefits would drop out from under them and they would bee deeper in poverty than before

[@MarzFromMars]

Ah yes a legend was born right here as they say

[@lancelindlelee7256]

Thanks for this episode. I had an exam in Systems Thinking where we needed to give exampless of various system behaviors. I used the cobra example for one of them

[@jonasdrejerjensen]

here is a good example. Spec ops the line. The incentive is very simple. "Killing (in video games) is fun. Untill the games message comes though.

[@darkmonkeyofdeath]

The biggest incentive I've ever felt in both games and reality was the dark soul achievement in dark souls series it was the only achievement that meant something it was the most incentivizing thing I felt due to the difficulty of the game so getting that felt amazing

[@FeamT]

Loved the video, and as usual I was surprised by how deep you went with the direction for the topic. There are plenty of bad incentive systems in games that affect players on a personal basis, games that make you feel obligated, or drained, or simply frustrated because of the path they take you on, but you just jumped directly towards the incentive systems that affect entire societies! Would love to see more in-depth and specific exploration of incentive systems in the future, either on a scale of world affairs or just as game design for game design's sake. Definitely a lot to learn, and I'm sure you've touched on it in previous videos, too.

[@orangepeals7210]

The girl playing VR while wearing a hijab might be my favorite thing ever. Thanks, EC, for being inclusive.

[@NetConsole]

LOL that is the opposite of being inclusive.

[@orangepeals7210]

...what? why? They included a girl who chose to wear a traditional head cover for cultural or religious reasons but the main focus was that she was having fun playing games. She's a human being that isn't the default.

[@NetConsole]

What I Bought on Steam The illusion of choice is strong on this one.

[@DustyMusician]

The woman with the hijab has always been on the show even as it cycled through various artists.

[@orangepeals7210]

YCCCm7 Agreed. It's an easy mistake to make, but it's that polish that makes EC so great.

[@JM-us3fr]

This is the essence of video games

[@GavinHohenheim]

this. this is why we need a universal, unconditional basic income.

[@TobiasDwyer]

Have you guys ever thought about doing a podcast? These videos are so well done that I can listen to them without any visuals and get exactly what you are trying to say. A podcast could help you more broadly explore these ideas. I, at least, would listen to it.

[@gustavokupcevich7895]

In Argentina we have a saying "Hecha la ley, hecha la trampa" which roughly translates to "Created the law, made the cheat"

[@EamonBurke]

The gap he speaks of with social benefits is too freaking real. If you cross the poverty line and stop qualifying for medical care, subsidized or rent-controlled housing, grocery money, tax credits, etc...you'd have to make 15-25k more per year to put yourself back where you were. Ask me how I know.

[@NotaWalrus1]

Eep. The more I learn about the "wellfare" system in America, the more scared I am. (Seriously, it can't be that hard to design a system that prevents the unemployed and minimum-wage workers from starving while at the same time making the "earn more money" choice always a no-brainer.)

[@jaypillsbury843]

Unfortunately, here in the US, we have politicians who go too far trying to "compromise" with those who want to do nothing, so we end up only getting half-progress that often doesn't do _any_ of what it was intended to do.

[@EamonBurke]

Jake, I couldn't agree more. Everything our government does on a national level ends up either not happening at all, or being the worst of both worlds. We even get mandatory insurances that come from private companies. It's madness.

[@Fanatic17]

yeah guys complain about usa economy. Look at Europe's and Italy's GDP and compare it to USA

[@yesimstuntdude]

GDP is not a good measure of how a country's economy affects its citizens on an individual, personal level.

[@fanglespangle110]

You guys rarely fail to be interesting. Nice job :)

[@justSPOONERok]

Please tell me I'm not the only one that realized that the licence plate at 4:10 says "DAT 8OI" (dat boi) o shit wuddup

[@HS_Diora]

can confirm, dat boi has arrived

[@WannabeCanadianDev]

My EXACT problem when I was on Welfare myself in a nutshell, it was extremely difficult to get off of it because finding a fulfilling full time job was so difficult. This is why we need Min-Income.

[@ZincAddict]

In 1989 Mexico City passed this law... In 2016 it's still on, only far more restrictive and wider in it's reach

[@leoschue8071]

That cobra thing is fantastic. Also a really good episode with a really good message overall.

[@thehajduk6451]

Paradox Interactive game's also do a very good job at this topic.

[@humblebee1321]

This got me thinking about why I can't stand working full time. I have a salaried position. If I work really hard and get my work done quickly, I get nothing. I don't get to leave early. I don't get extra pay. I just get more work. My boss would argue that my incentive is to potentially get a promotion one day. I don't really feel like that incentive matches the effort. If I work slowly, doing the bare minimum, browsing reddit and youtube all day, I still get paid, I still keep my job, and I get an immediate daily reward; my day is more entertaining. When I freelance, I negotiate the incentive with the client. If either party feels that what they're getting isn't worth the money/time/effort, we can refuse the terms or renegotiate to find something that works for both of us. It feels like a much better system.

[@Neuroticmancer]

this'll be one of your episode i always return to before starting a game

[@jedijeremy]

This topic was - weirdly enough - explored in some depth once in an episode of Stargate Atlantis called appropriately "The Game". (s3e15) If you haven't seen the episode, I don't want to spoil it, so I'll just recommend it.

[@iRedEarth]

I remember in Railroad Tycoon 3 I could create a small company, load it up with debt, buy back stock so my own stock value goes up, sell the stock, leave the company, and start a new one with the money I got from the first one, which is now in ruins. Now from a gameplay perspective, this is an exploit. However things like this really did happen, so it's perfectly reasonable for it to be possible in the game.

[@ButtKraken01]

Learned all about this in management classes. Incentives in the workplace are also tricky to get right. How do you push sales and profits while keeping customer satisfaction high?

[@ghillieguy52]

I have family moving out of an apartment where the employees are incentivised to keep the apartments full via a bonus when a new tenant is signed on. So employees began to provide poor service and absurd fees to get tenants to want to move to get more bonuses.

[@monkey_blu]

*sigh* When EC talks about your country (Mexico) and makes you feel noticed (in a horrible way).

[@Wakey585]

But Mexico today is far better than it was in the 80's, Mexico is getting better we're rooting for you *gets union jack pom-poms out* "GIVE ME A M-"

[@oddluck4180]

Hippy

[@Wakey585]

(looks at self in mirror) Long hair: check Beard: check Rides Bicycle: check baggy clothes: check Peace out!

[@Lugaid13]

And we still have the same problems today, maybe worse! But hey! Look! The Nissan Leaf is cheaper now! ¬_¬

[@MonsterUpTheStairs]

Hey, as a German, I do feel Empathy for you. But then again, as a Human, I can only see someone using a historical example. It's nothing to fret about, as it isn't like you're bound to your country.

[@Unclemork]

Can you make an episode that explains network effects/strategic complementarity, portfolio optimization (in terms of deck building and risk hedging (you touched in the ballpark with your discussion of delta spreads on enjoyability), keynesian beauty contests and equilibrium strategies? these are all deep economic concepts that have profound impacts on gaming meta strategy and explain why many simple incentive structures fail.

[@BenjaminPotzmann]

I had this moment just a week ago. All my student life I was wondering: When so many people historically conquered basically all of Europe, why not Switzerland? Well, I was playing Hearts of Iron IV as Nazi Germany, got all of Europe,. from Iberia to Scandinavia to Turkey even, when I was thinking about attacking Switzerland. Surprising myself, I decided not to, because attacking into mountains, with the Swiss entrenched in there would just mean an immense loss of my manpower, with no resource gain (or really any kind of gain) and another region I would need to quell revolutions in! I was really kind of blown away this simple realization.

[@Hyperionwolf]

Hey guys! Amazing episode. You guys taught me so much over these years! You know, Skinner (the same one you guys seem to not like a lot) wrote a lot about these systems. We, Behavior Analysts, call them "Contingencies of Reinforcement" and their design is a very important matter! Some articles that point out this subject: THe Design of Cultures, Why are We not Saving the World, "Man", and perhaps even some of Hayes's extensive metanalysis in Enviromental Problems, Behavioral Solutions. If you guys would like to discuss a behaviorist view of those subjects, I'd be glad to shoot out some pointers! Good luck on the next episode. Bye!

[@simonhebert4089]

you guys astound me for having so much enlightening content, i just wanna watch everything!!! Your research is valuable, noteworthy, easy to understand and especially entertaining with those cute drawing analogies.

[@rehmsmeyer]

You (and I) live one one such of these games (simulations). It was out into place to understand how putting into place X would finalize itself as Y.

[@andrecorso9848]

To people that truly believe games like this can only be biased, or that the only lessons in this game would be the ones handpicked by the author keep in mind that: Some games are made out of autonomous systems, not necessarily preprogrammed reactions. For example, if someone creates a game with a some specific system there are two ways that system can be done: They can either make some variables and let them interact freely and results be decided by universal rules or make it so that whenever a thing X happens a thing Y happens in each specific case. Those are different approaches, because in the first one, the game created would contain a self consistent system with laws and rules and a reason for why things happen. If you create this game with variables and laws that accuratelly represent reality, you will get an approximation of how things would play out in the real world. On the other hand, by choosing what happens based on IF THEN reactions the results of the system are based on what the AUTHOR thinks would happen for each scenario, and that may not be as realistic and may even be really biased.

[@JohnnyLoves]

Thanks for giving me the incentive to like this video.

[@antediluvegan7236]

Well said! Art at its finest should challenge us to think and grow as people!

[@AntonQvarfordt]

Much enjoyed this episode. I've felt for a while that legislators have a lot to learn from computer system design. Which I feel relates to this episode.

[@Xankill3r]

The city of New Delhi, India has recently been experimenting with a similar (to Mexico City) traffic reduction scheme - Odd Even. Cars with odd license numbers on odd days and even license numbers on even days. There hasn't been a lot of publicly available data on the impact the scheme has had though, and it only ran for 2 weeks in January and then 2 weeks in April. My own experience was that peak hour traffic went down along certain stretches. Some people that I know did buy new cars so maybe traffic would come right back up if they extended the scheme. Thankfully there are a few other laws and structures in place that would at the very least prevent an increase in emissions. Firstly, New Delhi (and surrounding cities) have a pretty good public transport system in place - Delhi Metro Rail, State run and private bus services, autorickshaws, etc. Second, the Supreme Court had banned the sale of highly polluting Diesel vehicles in the city (though it is considering lifting the ban now). Third, a number of private taxi aggregators (Ola, Uber, etc) are offering taxi/car pooling services. So we have here a different set of interacting (dis)incentives that might result in a different outcome. Or not, only time will tell.

[@CBusschaert]

Man this is fascinating. You opened my eyes once more, EC!

[@silenceofdoom]

Here a few examples from paradox games. In the series Europa Universalis, the natural decay to normal of my national prestige score led me to declare wars that have little more strategic cause that the need to preserve the perks of high prestige, wars that aren't much more than international bar beatdowns. It helped me understand where the quote that America needs to chose a random unknown country once per decade and throw it against a wall. Also, in this series, since building and maintaining armies can be very expensive and gets worse if you go above the soft cap, a treat that forces me to build a large army is likely to put me in a position where war can be the most efficient way to reduce my military budget. If the treat vanishes, I find somewhere else to use my massive force on hand. I have paid for a war and I am gonna find a war to make a return on my investment. In Crusader Kings 2, most successions laws except a father or mother to find a land for his/her adult sons. It can be impressive the game of cloaks and dagger that was doing in order to secure a few title for my family.

[@TBosse1013]

I learned more with this video than i ever have in history class...

[@9Tensai9]

Man.... where can I get James to teach me? I really want him as teacher

[@BrianH1988]

While it wasn't really an amazing example, I do have a relatively good one: from playing the original Transport Tycoon (or more accurately OpenTTD, which for all intents and purposes is basically the same thing) it became extremely clear to me that after a certain size of city, optimizing bus infrastructure was easily one of the most daunting things I'd ever done in a game. Past, say 20,000 for a city you tend to have at least 15 bus stops in that city, and often your existing routes will become jokishly inefficient for coverage. It made me realize how much my local bus service needs to take into account (especially considering there are at least 12 different circuit bus routes where I live, and they all look rather ridiculous on a map if you're not intimately familiar with the city's landscape, population areas, and so on). Cities: Skylines cemented those ideas to a certain degree, but it wasn't as good at driving the point home- the easiest thing to do is just drag and drop stations along the lines you've created with little regard for where they are, whereas in Transport Tycoon... I mean OpenTTD... Bus stops were static things you had to place. They costed an initial fee and upkeep to place, and more importantly if you placed them in denser areas you would see the most benefit, and the game made this clear by growing the area over a prolonged time. For the record, I'd like to state that Chris Sawyer games have always been very upfront with the statistics- I've always loved them for that, and Roller Coaster Tycoon was my very first sim game (I would largely argue it should be anyone's). I wish more games could capture that sheer experience, but unfortunately chances are none will ever quite be as satisfying as hearing the temporary inhabitants of your park walk about giggling, being able to literally pick their brains to make a better experience, trying to optimize your park layout, and of course building your own custom attractions to see how they fare... it's an experience its predecessors largely abandoned when making the jump to 3D... gameplay just wasn't as tightly woven and satisfying in subsequent tiles. But enough of that, I could wax on for hours about RCT and the experiences it's brought me (and still brings me when I play).

[@cd2220]

Well I think one of the biggest strengths of the idea is this. In a video game, for the most part, there are no real life consequences for your actions. So doing something morally questionable is usually not a big problem for people especially without an emotional attachment. So things like simulators put in that position, where no my goal is to win the game, and you can see how if you don't carry some kind of morals, or care about how it effects other people than yourself, what awful things people will do when they "gamify" their vision of life and drop any care of what happens to others. Or they do it in a way where you can justify it to yourself out of self preservation and realize how much awful shit you did. I think it hits hardest when you don't realize how bad the things your doing are until after you've done all of them, previously justified in your head.

[@3roderick3]

Almost 300 hours in Prison Architect, great game :P I agree that the beauty of that game is that it doesn't say anything about right or wrong, it just simulates the systems, and the consequences of your actions.

[@MikkelPedersenKaas]

Thanks, I've been thinking a lot about this. I always find it odd, how lawmakers never seem to contemplate, how they law can be "gamed". Making laws it not much different than setting up game mechanics and rules.

[@lopsided20]

hey extra credits, you guys are really amazing breaking down games and figuring out how games work. I am absolutely positive that you guys would make a really amazing game. James could create the coding or mechanics, and use the art you guys already have. it would be an incredible game.

[@TheTerraImperator]

Paradox Interactive games.... hmmm, I wonder what they're trying to incite.

[@TG-dr6sj]

Genocide and eugenics, I'm pretty sure.

[@franzluggin398]

CK II: "Burn the world. No really, burn the world down!" EU IV: "People are not going to be rebellous if you give them more rights and take them away from them over a longer period of time. Also, claim that territory you just ripped out of Japan is and has always been rightful Malian soil." Vic II: Uh, "Anarcho-Liberalism is bad."? HoI III: "Learn to conquer the world _from Hitler_!" Stellaris: "I'm really pissed that my planet was conquered by collectivist devils, since I am a fanatic individualist. I should really... Oh, I'm a slave now. Better silently obey my new masters while being as productive as possible."

[@6Qubed]

I'm reminded of the tale of how the guys who made Game Dev Tycoon created a version where after a while software pirates would just torrent the games you made rather than buy and slowly but surely tank all your profits, making the game unwinnable. Then they released this version on torrent sites and waited for the game's forums to light up about how to "beat the pirates". I don't think it's quite the same thing but it sounds similar.

[@kevinbooth-]

2:40 - The evidence that min wage is too low. (make a child exception for youth - addressing the common counter)

[@ZachL9544]

The problem with this is that the consequences have to be made by developers and will be biased towards one side or another and not give an accurate representation of what might happen.

[@Stephen-Fox]

Was expecting this to be on intrinsic vs extrinsic incentives, maybe just the differences between the two, maybe on how there's evidence for extrinsic incentives, while good for motivation in the short term, particularly with people who aren't interested in the thing, can kill the drive behind intrinsic incentives, which can result in people who were interested in e.g. reading to no longer be able to engage with it without the extrinsic motivation (Which is a problem with poorly implemented gamification)

[@jaypillsbury843]

They've done a video on that exact topic before. :)

[@thomasfang7120]

Hey I just want to point out one thing. The main issue with internal combustion vehicles is their incredible inefficiency. If we were to convert to electric vehicles, even if the energy required came from coal, the carbon output would be much lower given the much greater efficiency of power plants. Plus, centralized improvements to things like the electrical grid and adding green energy over time can create great improvements with minimal impact to the average consumer.

[@groynin]

6:14 Ha, looks like SOMEONE used the bucket tool instead of the brush huh!

[@pur3demon0wn]

All your video's are really insiteful. I like it

[@icedragon769]

Your spelling is also insightful :)

[@pur3demon0wn]

ah, my b

[@ferdousalrafi6126]

+icedragon769 most insightful comment

[@ToonPlays]

Its nice to be early to watch Extra credits :D

[@izakcronje6421]

Here is a suggestion. I have been playing a game called Entropia Universe for the past month or so. It is a perfect example of this video and I would recommend anyone to play this game without any micro transactions. it forces you to think about the real worlds economy abd its problems