The Praetorian Guard: Rome's Deep State?

[@tribunateSPQR]

Do you believe the Praetorian Guard contributed to the fall of the Roman Empire?

[@CBrace527]

Military acting against the long term interests of the state? No way!

[@Anon_E_Muss]

Yes.

[@Freyja_M4106]

Do You think it possible that, the mafia families in Italy are formerly Praetorian Guard families?

[@rommelhtown]

100 percent yes.

[@shinsenshogun900]

A B O L I S H E D by Constantine, therefore the Praetorians contributed to the Decline of the Principate ever since they dwindled in their virtues as a prestigious imperial military organization

[@cupidsfavouritecherub9327]

The Praetorians, the Mamluks, the Janissaries, it seems like a common theme that the men with swords always gain outsized influence once they entrench themselves in the seat of power

[@sirarthurfiggis]

"We're only here for your safety." - the Praetorians, the Mamluks, the Janissaries

[@stephenferguson9756]

Don't forget the samurai of Japan.

[@kutless45]

In the future we will include the FBI and CIA in that list.

[@Narcolepco]

@@kutless45 the future is now

[@beefcake5362]

And the secret service

[@geordiejones5618]

The early imperial balance of the legion commanders, the imperial family, the praetorian guard, the senate, and the provincial Italian aristocracy was a masterwork of empire building, but no one realized that as the Roman world ballooned in population, each region would naturally consolidate these Italy centric factions and adopt their own quasi-state within the state. Christianity itself was able to adopt such a large role in the empire because its infrastructure was built from the ground up and was going strong within a generation of Christ's death. The Roman empire ended several times and was reborn in several different ways.

[@unknowninfinium4353]

Yo Courage, recommend me more books on the Roman Empire my guy. And some that goes in the level of depth as you just wrote.

[@diegosalazar7261]

Just like the Mexican Race.

[@rickh9127]

Beautiful!

[@mra4521]

How Rome became a Militarized Police State is the framing that Behind the Bastards used to tell the story of the Gracchus Brothers through Augustus.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Interesting! I'm familiar with the podcast but haven't listened before - I'll have to check this out

[@mra4521]

@@tribunateSPQR they did a series on Carthage called ‘How Rome Did a Genocide’ and a series on the Roman Civil Wars called ‘How Rome Became a Police State.’

[@tribunateSPQR]

@@mra4521 really cool, I know some of the hosts from twitter but this has be convinced to check out their work. Thanks for the recommendation!

[@Giantcrabz]

​@@tribunateSPQR it's very good

[@Colddirector]

I like that you mention something I think is way too understated - that in many ways, the seeds of the Empire's fall were sowed during its construction. The lack of formal succession rules, the reliance on the Praetorians, the ever increasing donatives to the army - Augustus may have taken the fracturing Republican system and reformed it into something that, well, wasn't fracturing, but the Empire practically had "not gonna last" written all over it.

[@haltungsprechen]

And it proceeded to last 5 centuries in the west, and almost 15 centuries in the east, but yeah it didn't "last" forever. I'm not sure any state or nation has or ever will. The exceptionalism of Rome that has influenced almost every European nation is partially thanks to the fact it lasted for so long, much longer than many other states.

[@quest2782]

It still lasted a thousand years though

[@BernasLL]

Your closing remarks reminded me of CGPGrey's "Rules for Rulers", which is a very instructive way of looking at these things.

[@King_Steffon_II]

Very similar to the Japanese Shogunate The military usually always has the most power since they have all of the weapons

[@james_giant_peach]

I just started the Hulu show shogun. It’s really good

[@King_Steffon_II]

​​@@james_giant_peach I've been entrenched in Japanese history for over a decade and just recently published the first book in my series involving medieval Japan. East Asian history is soooo massive and expansive.

[@james_giant_peach]

@@King_Steffon_II that’s awesome what’s your book called?

[@King_Steffon_II]

@@james_giant_peach I'm full of useless information on the subject and region 🤣 This series has basically been a life long passion since highschool. Now at 30 I'm making it a reality. I know it isn't much but when the Library of Congress sent me the copyright certificate it was surreal. Marketing is extremely difficult though. Sorry for talking your head off mate. Anyhow, the title of the first book is named: Rising Sun Requiem: Bushido Blitz by Steffon V. Paige

[@dechasrisen4783]

I don't think the Praetorians ever particularly exceeded the general pattern of the military. Before the third century, they didn't assassinate anyone who wasn't a terrible and destructive emperor. Pertinax and Aurelian reflect the growing power and destabilising influence of the military generally.

[@rommelhtown]

I don't know about that my friend. I believe sejanus during the reign of Tiberius had quite a lot of people killed. But when Sejanus crossed Tiberius and as the emperor found out what he was truly doing, he was taken out.

[@CBrace527]

Thanks for this, appreciate that all your videos have such a unique perspective and aren't just a recitation of facts + events

[@flamenmartialis9529]

So the praetorian guard was a narrow elite that decided the fate of the City without involving others, especially the masses. This description more or less fits the senate. Thus it's even more ironic that we hear about the shenanigans of the praetorians from the bitter senatorial class that got a taste of their own medicine.

[@ImPallasAthena]

Your videos are phenomenal guys, keep it up! :D

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thanks so much!

[@jayuno3009]

The same could be said of the court Eunuchs in Eastern Rome and China, though their influence was less obvious than the Praetorians, they wielded significant political influence. I think the topic of Eunuchs deserves its own video.

[@alrengamao2577]

The Praetorian Guard was Organized by Augustus c.a. 27 B.C. ,and Disbanded by Constantine 1 c.a. 313 A.D.

[@ctrux16]

Another great video!

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thank you!

[@brenokrug7775]

Your channel is really good! Keep up the good work and it will for sure grow in the future!

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thank you so much! Here’s hoping 🤞

[@Ancient__Wisdom]

Excellent video - thought provoking as always

[@Reathety]

I've watched two videos on this channel so far and they were both incredible.

[@MedusaJellyFish300]

Wow, thank you for all your wonderful Roman videos. You are a wonderful human being that brings joy to many hearts through your KZbin channel. We love you ❤🎉❤🎉❤

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thanks so much for watching. We couldn't be happier that you're here.

[@MatthewCaunsfield]

Some extraordinary history, thanks

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thanks for watching.

[@beefcake5362]

Ancient Rome is a paradox. They were in architecture engineering plumbing road systems and aqueducts. But they also have the darkest side in humanity. My opinion of them is up and down.

[@1917girl]

great video, as always

[@tribunateSPQR]

Many thanks.

[@flaviusstilicho397]

Can you please do a video on the Germanic Batavian guard and Equites singulares Augusti the cavalry arm of the Praetorian guard

[@tribunateSPQR]

We'll add it to the list.

[@StudentOfClassics]

Great video! Earned my sub!

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thanks and welcome aboard!

[@korylytle9045]

Another banger with some great analysis

[@mesrobvartavarian2914]

A most insightful conclusion. Bravo.

[@Warmaker01]

I considered the Praetorian Guard to be worthless. They greatly destabilized the empire and were trash soldiers. They were soft and used to living in luxury in Rome. A far cry from the Legions at the borders who have to train and prepare for combat at any time. The fact the Praetorians got upset when an Emperor tried to instill military discipline in the guard makes me see them even lower than I previously did. I used to think these guys were the best of the best from the Legions. They probably were to some degree, up to a certain point. But sitting in Rome all the time with money being thrown at them made them soft, corrupt, and greedy. In GRR Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire" books, there's references to the Kingsguard's history. Notable in that the worst members of the Kingsguard where the ones that became known as King Makers.

[@marybennett4573]

Awesome video!

[@revanius2213]

Quick thing, Drusus son of Tiberius was not executed by Tiberius, Drusus was assassinated by his wife Livilla working with Sejanus. Tiberius did imprison his nephews Nero and Drusus on Sejanus' recommendation though.

[@tribunateSPQR]

This is an important distinction. I think there's absolutely a case to be made that Tiberius was aware of / condoned the plot to some degree, but it's possibly we unwittingly suggested that our interpretation is the definitive one. Thanks for the thoughtful reminder.

[@foreverraining1522]

Very fascinating topics

[@brianpendell6085]

There is a modern analog to the Praetorians in Russia; the Nomenklatura which were the bureaucracy of the USSR and survived into the Russian Federation. In the US, a word progressives might prefer is "privilege" -- for example, if you're born the child of a harvard grad, you've got a leg up on your contemporaries from Appalachia or the slums of LA in terms of admission. Also, since your parents are probably from a relatively background, you have access to tutoring, education, and connections that open opportunities other young people can't dream of. Networking -- being hired by your web of connections -- is the foundation of oligarchy, and like all oligarchies it is self-sustaining and self-reinforcing, often with its own mythos about how those who benefit from it are deserving or simply more meritorious than everyone else. It's not surprising that those who aren't part of such a network of privilege resent those who are, and want to overthrow those networks so their own network can be put in their place.

[@ouss]

Title: How Greed Destroyed the Roman Empire.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Tbh more than half of our videos could use some variation of that title. - Titus

[@ryan.1990]

They had a scorpion as their symbol, how could you not trust them?

[@truthinesssss]

Great work. I’m new to your channel and enjoying it very much. Anyone who thinks that our administrative state (with all its despotic and unelected bureaucrats) is not a latter day version of the praetorian guard is woefully uninformed.

[@DozyBinsh]

"Guard"

[@tribunateSPQR]

It's not really that subjective of a job title

[@sirarthurfiggis]

"Is that - is that not part of guarding? Oh, jeez. I'm sorry."

[@kondor99999]

Such formidable servants are always necessary, but often fatal to the throne of despotism. By thus introducing the Praetorian guards as it were into the palace and the senate, the emperors taught them to perceive their own strength, and the weakness of the civil government; to view the vices of their masters with familiar contempt, and to lay aside that reverential awe, which distance only, and mystery, can preserve towards an imaginary power. - Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, by Edward Gibbon

[@vitovitale8325]

@kondor99999 take out Praetorians & replace w/ a Varangian style type imperial bodyguards (ie troops which basically didn't speak the native language or maybe broken Latin... but these folks didn't speak enough of local language to get anything as complicated as taking out their benefactor across) these could be instructed as to who was given authority over them & to what extent (maybe bad example but same way you'd have guard dogs trained in another language besides English here in America)

[@AB-qt3uz]

Roman power exerted itself through physical force and threats of physical force, and so it was to its advantage to display those traits openly. The modern intelligence agencies exert power through subterfuge and so they operate secretively. Capture of the center of power is one way in which modes of government supplant previous modes, eg. Absolutest monarchs employed parliaments to help the rule and then became supplanted by them when they figured out they didn't need the monarch. Similarly, intelligence and bureaucratic agencies may be supplanting parliamentary systems today. We really can't know for sure until the history is written with 20/20 hindsight.

[@jamesalvarez8733]

Reference to the praetorian guards during the Mexican American war of 1846, and how that same military spirit that ruined Rome could ruin America: “It was when the Pretorian Guards of Rome bore the emperor into office by their despotic will, that the mistress of nations began to decline. And when, in any nation, the glorious gifts of Christian statesmanship, and ripe experience, and large converse among men, and a life-time of civil services to one's country and the world, are postponed and set aside for “the conquering hero," the Genius of rational, heaven-descended Liberty is already meditating her departure to some more congenial clime. We want civilians, not swordsmen; Catos, not Caesars, nor Syllas at the head of Christendom and nations. If our hearts, and our consciences were alive and awake, we should reject the idea with horror of making a military man the great man of the nation, for he is not a smart man who trusts his horse-shoer to work on his teeth. Whoever would know the further fate of this Roman Diety, “Terminus”, so recently taken under the bosom of American Democracy and under the concept of “Manifest Destiny”, may find ample gratification of his curiosity, in the luminous pages of the historical accounts of "Gibbons Decline and Fall of Rome". -war with Mexico reviewed, Abiel Livermore 1850 American Peace Society

[@g4m3life86]

Definitely. They, as the power behind the throne, managed many of the key decisions

[@TEMindset83702]

Tiberius did not order the execution of his Drusus. Drusus was poisoned by his wife Livilla and her lover Sejanus.

[@ProbusVerus]

Constantine proved once again not only how he was a great military leader but also a shrewd politicians and ruler.

[@evanwoodham6296]

Yep

[@colonistsfirst204]

83 thousand forgotten graves

[@SB-qm5wg]

I enjoyed the 1st 10 minutes

[@kamartaylor2902]

Patrick Stewart had hair???!!

[@johnmartin2502]

It's called a wig.

[@1GoodWoman]

Power does seem to come down to weapons and wealth. Always. The rest is window dressing and busywork.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Unfortunately, very little has changed

[@hugodelphan8638]

Well, you forgot to had that when Caracalla was killed the Roman where on the verge of a huge battle against the Parthian and couldn’t wait to go home to give the throne to a member of the Séverin dynasty or a wealthy aristocrat, they needed a emperor now

[@kamartaylor2902]

Tiberius did not execute his son. His son was poisoned.

[@wouefn]

The Praetorian Guard is not comparable to what happens in modern capitalist democracies (liberal democracies) -- at least the stable ones (the First World countries). In the capitalist system, the capitalist class is the supreme authority and the real power, but, since their power emanates from owning the means of production (the economy) and not brute force, they can only administrate the State through de facto hired professionals -- i.e. professional armies (Armed Forces) and professional politicians (who are elected, but are pre-selected by obscure, behind-the-scene processes that involve large sums of money). So, what we have in the modern capitalist societies is the polar opposite of the “deep state”: it is the “shallow state”. In order for the Roman Empire to be akin to modern capitalism, the emperor would have to cease to exist as an office and the Praetorian Guard would have to be transmuted into a class of professional bureaucrats who would govern directly (monopoly of violence in Italia) and indirectly (by issuing laws etc.). Long story short: calling the Praetorian Guard the deep state is a fair metaphor, but not the modern capitalist state, which is very in-your-face (so much so that the people blames the State for everything that goes bad).

[@jcdenton9969]

Majestic XII

[@rommelhtown]

Long live the glory of Rome. Long live Caesar.

[@bouarichbrahim7408]

top praetorian guard§§

[@ericcook7622]

Macrinus was in a tough spot. Had he not assassinated Caracalla, Caracalla almost certainly would have had him killed. It was an odd situation involving some mystic setting Macrinus up.

[@shinsenshogun900]

Definitely in Lucas's next hit list

[@android65mar]

keep the troops onside

[@tribunateSPQR]

Literally the Emperor's only job

[@shinsenshogun900]

Keep the bodyguards well paid and virtuously obedient

[@tribunateSPQR]

@@shinsenshogun900 timeless advice for any monarch

[@fieracarmen4713]

Mulți împărați romani au fost asasinați de Garda Pretoriană ! Periculoși au fost băieții aceștia!

[@frankthetank8799]

Tiberius did not execute his biological son. He did adopt Germanicus at the demand of Augustus. So, if you are referring to Germanicus as his son, there is a lot of stories that Tiberius had him poisoned / murdered.

[@ThrillaWhale]

Fellow Romaboos, we gather again today.

[@Breakfast_of_Champions]

There never was a better system than Athenian council democracy anyway. Rome ruined everything through its oligarchy.

[@1917girl]

I mean.... Athens still denied over half of the population the right to vote. like even just putting aside the misogyny of not allowing women to vote, they also didn't allow anybody who wasn't a citizen to vote, and citizenship was incredibly difficult to come by. I wouldn't say they "ruined everything", I would say they refined it to better suit the purpose of class control, which is essentially the point of any state, even modern ones.

[@Breakfast_of_Champions]

@@1917girlThese "democratic" things were not a concern for anyone then. The central idea of Athenian democracy was to put limits on the oligarchy. Oligarchy ruins everything because it is unsustanable through its greed. Rome ended in collapse, as did every other oligarchic state.

[@1917girl]

@@Breakfast_of_Champions i imagine they were probably a concern for the people who were, themselves, excluded. its just that generally, the oppressed aren't the ones who are able, or even allowed, to transmit their ideas across history

[@therealestg9]

lol it works great in times of peace and luxury but not otherwise

[@Breakfast_of_Champions]

@@therealestg9On the contrary, the efficient econonomy allowed Athens to become #1.

[@rugerraylewis2602]

The Varangians the realist🫡🤣

[@y11971alex]

Can a kind Roman historian tell me what the Curiate Assembly was used for? 😅

[@GeorgeDoughty-m8e]

Sounds like USA today.

[@RightfulArchon186]

The US doesn't have Emperors.

[@laisphinto6372]

Last i checked the secret service didnt kill any Presidents yet.

[@ElizabethMcCormick-s2n]

More like the worst bodyguard outfit ever!

[@colonistsfirst204]

BAVARIAN BARBARIANS CEMETERY IS 8 SONDRYS BACK FIELD FROM THE FENCE

[@colonistsfirst204]

Scan for foundation and stone last of the real life cobblestone is the Larry lull fence

[@colonistsfirst204]

QUESTION ANSWERED BY DONT OPEN UP MY LAP SANDWICH MY LAST WISHBONE SPLIT