The Problem with 100Thieves

[@cephly]

little does everyone know how predatory mogul money is, taking 100% of ludwig's brand deals..

[@posthumous_me]

@our hero ^ virus link

[@Leocaspar]

@@posthumous_me wait actually? But its a youtube link, no? I didn’t know they could do that.

[@orly2663]

which is reinvested into Stake, so money well spent.

[@hoziVAL]

@@Leocaspar the link says youtu instead of youtube

[@ilyjxsiah]

@@Leocaspar I clicked it, it’s an Airfryer video xD

[@miguellara8545]

One thing that actually should be mentioned in all of this, is that the mob individuals have been actual friends of nadeshot for a very very long time, they've been his moderators of his twitch chat since the black ops 2 days. He believed in them as a content group and wanted to give them a chance to make it work, at one point nadeshot says he had to go up to bat for them to get them signed to 100t probably to the rest of the ownership group. I think more than anyone nadeshot is disappointed in the individuals for how little work they did especially being his friends of so long.

[@CallMeBell17]

@RedDot rip i just got airfried :(

[@MrCnett]

exactly.. Nade gave them a shot and they flopped it.

[@Thisisthegreatestatofalltime]

True but that contract was criminally bad, though he was also criminally bad at his job.

[@olblue3478]

@lifeisruff that's the only money the org made from them

[@angelarias3395]

@lifeisruff any percent is better than 0. He gave them a chance and they blew it lmao. Friends don’t owe other friends anything he gave them something at least and they weren’t appreciative of it

[@Wynnsanity]

I’m represented by an agency and have a very different experience from you, I feel like a vast majority of the opportunities I’ve gotten have come from the relationships my agency has with brands. Brands also can centralize entire campaigns through the agency. The agency helps broker the deals and manages deliverables. Brands don’t want to work with 20 different individual KZbinrs through 20 separate channels of communication, but rather centralizing it all in one big bundle through an agency is easier. I actually just played in an Uno tournament hosted by you Lud, and I probably wouldn’t have been invited if my agency wasn’t hosting and brokering it. Just my two cents

[@draegonthedragon6540]

preach!

[@ClikcerProductions]

Thats the one place I think Lud missed the mark, he's big enough that he gets these opportunities just through being him on his own, smaller but still significant creators usually aren't in that position, so orgs can help a lot

[@theunovanative7640]

Ludwin would never

[@Bubbalubagus]

@@ClikcerProductions Yeah Ikr, these were literally 4 19 year old college dropouts with 50-200 concurrent viewers each. They were not commanding any brand deals period. For 100T to funnel them 200k deals and take 85-35% is a fucking blessing. If someone came up to me and said "I will give you 50k and I'll get 150k if you stream for 7 hours and say "Drink GFuel" I would say "Yes.". Oh and I forgot, you are also paying me a 60k salary and giving me a content budget and allowing me to use your editing team.

[@Joy-ft6mk]

thank you for your perspective - i work in marketing and we work with agencies all the time. yes, internally we can probably hustle and do the same work by ourselves, but usually our agencies have expertise, organization, and connections we don't have, letting us focus on what we do best. i assumed it was the same for some creators as well. not everyone has the ability or time to manage those side capabilities, maybe they JUST want to focus on their streams and let someone else help them handle the rest

[@Joshie_NZ]

IDK why Froste was complaining about "knowing if they'll have their next meal" when their rooms were filled with doordash orders. They were irresponsible and obviously weren't ready or just didn't take the job seriously. I'm on Nades side

[@samjasek1755]

I think he didn’t expect he’d get exposed with the DoorDash orders pic

[@Joshie_NZ]

@@samjasek1755 Facts. Froste should just grow up and take responsibility for his mistakes. He had everything handed to him and when he failed he blamed the org that paid him a salary to do nothing. Smh

[@arkain1]

Froste "didn't know where their next meal is coming from" means he hasn't decide where to place the next food order yet.

[@corbinbrier0]

Upset me to see him say that BS since I've dealt with food insecurity before and even now (end of the month sucks). The dude was making about 6-7x what I do a year. I make do with $80 a week for groceries. He should've learned how to cook if he was spending too much on takeout.

[@RatZrx]

I dont think it's necessary to pick sides here. The contract signed was egregious and the fact that 100T let that shit through the gates says a lot. Obviously these individuals (exc. Cass) weren't in it to win it. They siezed the opportunity not to grow but to relax for 2 years

[@arkain1]

Both things needs to go away: this terrible "industry standard" 85/15 contracts as well as lazy bums like Froste who are only willing to put in 40 hours A MONTH and expects everything served to them on a silver platter. - They were 22 year olds, that's college-graduate age, not "little kids". - Despite that shitty contract, 100T still ends up letting them keep 65% on top of paying them $60K a year salary. 100T should have just put that in the contract in the first place. - They chose the $10K house themselves, when there are much cheaper alternatives in the area. - They chose the internet service package for their house, with the speed they wanted. - They chose to waste so much money by doordashing every meal instead of prepping their food. When he said they "didn't know where their next mean is coming from", it actually means they haven't decide where to order their next meal yet. - Froste chose to put in WAY less streaming hours than most 9-5 part-time jobs. This is inexcusable for any upstart streamer. - Froste chose to not making any KZbin videos at all. This is inexcusable for any so-called "content creator". - Froste chose not to take any personal responsibility, learn from his mistakes, nor become a more responsible person. PS: Good to see Classify's effort is acknowledged by everyone involved though, including Nadeshot, it's a vast contrast to Froste's pathetic sense of entitlement. It is not a coincident that Class is now working for MrBeast after leaving 100T, while Froste is still an absolute nobody. Shares of Responsibility for this fiasco base on the actual proof presented: 15% on 100T, 85% on Froste.

[@tommyle3243]

From a business standpoint, if you’re 15 percent cut is greater then 100 by yourself I would say that’s a pretty worth while investment

[@JohnBrown-tw2qi]

@@tommyle3243 but it’s still YOUR content they make money off of, it’s not like joining them suddenly makes you more talented or entertaining. The industry standard for traditional entertainers like actors and musicians is 10-20%.

[@tommyle3243]

@@JohnBrown-tw2qi correct but it’s the same with staying independent or looking for investor. If you believe in your content you should stay independent. This is like saying the wnba should get payed the same.

[@Deeldoe]

@@JohnBrown-tw2qi They got brand deals because of 100 thieves, they got contracts because of 100 thieves, and they were allowed to keep 100% of their streaming revenue. They lost on things that 100 thieves gave them and that's it. You have it all backwards bud. 100 thieves were entitled to the money because they put the effort of getting those deals. They just had to talk about them, play them and mention them it's way less work to pretend you're hyped about a product than to get a product to pay you. 15% is way more than anyone would get in the same situation.

[@giulioceresini1435]

I'm a college student, I work 30 hours A WEEK and it's considered part-time ahahah

[@toppermusic]

The amount of people acting like 100T were supposed to be these guys parents is astounding. They were adults employed by a company. If I spend my salary like an idiot my boss doesn’t sit me down to teach me how to be financially responsible.

[@Lockdown335]

and Lud thinks these kids having teams or management isn't good? LOL they clearly need guidance if they cant even manage money on a basic level.

[@lionelk.y7233]

@@Lockdown335 Hey from my experience in the VTuber scene A manager can legit set you up for live and can safe your life

[@OwnerOfGlory]

@@lionelk.y7233 in the Vtuber scene you have Vshojo that takes 100% of the revenue from merchandise and brand deals but everything else is 100% for the talents. why do i bring this up? because they are the exact opposite of the MOB... smart and successful.

[@Hy_rize]

yeah your right but when you work a normal job you usually don't have brand deals and other outlets of money making, so its kind of wrong for them to take advantage of these young dudes.

[@lionelk.y7233]

@@OwnerOfGlory Hololive takes like 35% from SC but Merch either fully or a big majority goes to the talents so there's that too

[@RickyNinja]

Froste just comes across as a spoiled kid who is upset it all wasn’t handed to him. The majority of people would kill for the chance he got

[@0106johnny]

Especially when he says he will provide proof and then says he will not provide proof because why would he be lying? I mean, why would he not be lying lol

[@seva7500]

85% of sponsorship money getting taken from me? hell yeah brother preach!

[@RickyNinja]

@@0106johnny agreed, I get everyone up in arms over the 85% but they take nothing else from them. They give them a salary, a content budget, and bring them deals. The org has to get its investment back somehow.

[@RickyNinja]

@@seva7500 they took nothing else tho, they just didn’t use the opportunity to grow. I don’t agree with the number but if you took the 100t name and squandered the chance that’s on you

[@0106johnny]

@@RickyNinja The fixed salary plus content budget is the thing, yeah. That is why you get on such an organization, so that they give you a low risk permanent payment but in turn take much of the high risk, high value deals. Is 85% too high? Maybe, depends on how much they make in these deals. But it's not too crazy

[@jennaroth-epstein4645]

These mogal mails are exactly what the community needs to stay informed on these matters. Ludwig, thank you so much for creating a community with the ability to analyze an arguement and see both sides. You manage to present information in such a great way where you are doing it to inform, not to force your audience to feel one way. Thanks for the video dude, always brightens up my day. :)

[@suhailmall98]

Tbh the channel does feel a lot like a drama channel and I'm not sure that's a great thing. I loved the first few videos where he read letters and gave advice

[@WuntaykTimmy1]

I'd also recommend atrioc he did a vid on this yesterday that was also very informed

[@josepeejoestar]

Dude, even philly d did this story like 2 days ago haha

[@carrots6249]

Stop posting virus links

[@Purriah]

Mogul*

[@Ragemonster64]

I totally disagree with 100T taking 85% of the sponsorship deal revenue or at least having that number in the contract. That’s ridiculous but HecZ, Owner of OpTic, did however give a good view on why that number was probably so high and that’s because they were really small creators that Nadeshot convinced 100T to take a chance on and since they weren’t going to take any of their twitch or KZbin revenue and still pay them a salary. They needed to recoup their investment somehow and that was through the sponsorship money. I still think that number is ridiculous but from that perspective it makes more sense why it was much higher than it likely was for courage or Valk

[@sprodage]

Its 100% this. Devin Nash talked about this same thing in his video. The 85% sponsorship split was the only ROI that 100T had from The Mob. People keep talking about how 15-25% is the norm in the industry. From what I know and have heard from others is that most talent managers/agencies do take anywhere from 15-25%, but that percentage is of ALL REVENUE (subs, donos, YT ads/views), not just sponsorships. Keep in mind that these places also are not signing you to a salary as well, unlike 100T.

[@maltaussie]

They also ended up only taking 35% - they were 100 viewer andies. They would attract sponsors of 1-2k at best. They would have been nowhere near a 200-300k sponsorship deal. That was all 100T bringing it in for them to improve the Mob's brand as well. Even Nadeshot said - they complained they only made most money from Uno tournament where they got 75k. Well they wouldn't have even been invited if not for 100T. The rest of the Mob seem fine and all good - just Froste seems like a bit of a dickhead tbh.

[@quickdropz]

Yeah. The reason it stated in the contract "up to 85%" imo was because they'd do what ever they could do at least break even on their investment. Crazy to me that Froste made all this drama with a bunch of lies, when in reality he just didn't grind and wasn't financially smart. He got $2,500 in salary a month. $2,500 in living stipend a month. $2,500 - $3,000 content budget. That is CRAZY for someone only doing 40 hours of streaming and maybe 1 video a month. But once the mob didn't meet the requirements of the deals they currently had with Fireball, Elgato, etc. that made them no longer able to get new deals and just a money pit for 100T. Froste easily made a few thousand dollars a month off twitch alone as well and could of doubled that by streaming even more. At one point there was a 5-6 month stretch in 100T where although he was only streaming 40 ish hours on average he had 500-750+ recurring subs. So he blames 100T for his money problems and why there was times he apparently couldn't afford food. But looks to me like he was making over $100,000 a year after taxes before even taking the $60,000 + in sponsorships & $75,000 in UNO tournament money, merchandise sales, and etc. into account. Absurd. I grew up in West LA. My entire household made maybe $100,000 a year and we lived very comfortably. Those 4 were making 1/2 a million a year and couldn't make it work. Froste had a well known gambling/poker problem. Maybe he blew a lot of his money there...

[@hawxchampion523]

Not to mention, that cut was for sponsorships that 100T brought TO the Mob, so basically sponsorships they wouldn't otherwise have received. Yes, the cut should've been better, but it's not like 100T was stealing from them. They were quite small content creators to end up in a popular org like 100T, so the potential value for 100T was low unless they put in the effort and got big, which clearly they didn't. I think 100T should have done more advising and coaching after the Mob joined. They're young and definitely needed some guidance, which may have resulted in them succeeding.

[@muneebelahi7580]

That's what is exploitation

[@BayBlends]

And now, You run an esports team

[@SaltMonarch]

Well something of note is that the Mob dealt with like 10 ppl for editing or something apparently and didn't pay them. Also one of said editors worked as their manager for free and made a google doc of a bunch of video ideas (cuz they didn't do f all for yt to which Frosty said well we didn't have viewers wasn't worth it) that only one of the Mob (Classify) ever even opened it which was the person who also streamed the most and actually tried at least in comparison to everyone else. Source: My recollection of what NotAirid (who was the free manager and an editor) said in Atrioc's chat and also his twitter

[@amberhernandez]

This just hurts to read, mate. Poor kid sounds like he did so much to help out, only to get ignored by everyone except Classify. I hope he finds a place he can be a good manager, with people who care about him in return.

[@SaltMonarch]

@@amberhernandez Well he's now the editor for both Rizzo and Athena who are much larger creator's than the mob and I've been in their communities and interacted with them and think they're great people so I'm sure he's doing great :)

[@fallwrendeathwatcher1584]

"Send it to a lawyer" The best piece of advice. Period

[@baesuheart]

this + the podcast you did the earlier today on twitter were really insightful for creators trying to grow

[@yaboyjay7202]

podcast on twitter?

[@jurb417]

@@yaboyjay7202 perhaps they mentioned the swatting or something like that I guess

[@ishaaq7824]

what podcast are you referring to? i know a creator trying to grow, wanna send it to them.

[@xingheng7336]

@@ishaaq7824 The Yard

[@YBHAOTA]

That intro looking kinda goofy after he joined moist esports ngl

[@MysticOwlz]

He's a co-owner of moist now, so what? At the time of the vid he said he wasn't apart of esports in general but times change dude.

[@ericvonwangenheim5278]

It does tho afaik according to charlie moist esports looses a ton of money and is just a fun side project, not necessarily a business that generates remarkable profit. So i would argue its a bit of a different situation

[@markusl.4290]

Taking ONLY a majority of profit from brand deals is wild. Considering 100T also does the negotiation for these brand deals. I'm on nadeshot's side since this is their only ROI. Money they get from stream, from yt revenue also goes straight into their pockets. All they had to do was make videos or stream more. That $2500 may be low but imagine using the 100T brand AND getting paid for it?

[@Jo53ph98]

thats my thought as well. They all got to keep their stream money, which itself should be a livable income, as well as just being handed an additional decent base income. The only cut 100t took was from the deals they themsleves set up and negotiated with brands. I hate when big corporations take advantage of people, and the whole "most people would do anything for a chance to do X" is usually very toxic, but in this case they were literally given a free livelihood. All 100T asked for was for them to do an occasional ad (which the mob still would also get paid for, just not as much).

[@VoidBL]

2500 after paying rent they were getting 5k a month imagine complaining about 5k a month of just salary. That's not even counting what they could have gotten off twitch and KZbin but they obviously didn't take it seriously.

[@mokus603]

What would make them work more? If they had some kind of bonus system, it’d have been better.

[@tokarigato3228]

@@mokus603 bro that incentive doesn't have to come from 100T. If you think about it, if they just streamed/worked 40hrs (or more) a week they could have earned more by getting donos, subs, clicks, etc. Thats money on top of their 100T salary! They didnt have to do anything special. But they decided to be lazy ass ADULTS.

[@Jo53ph98]

@@mokus603 work more? they got paid to do nothing. Them working was purely for themselves as 100T didn't take from their stream/youtube

[@Jets92]

In my opinion comparing 100T to a management agency is a very poor comparison. What management agency could promote and blow up a creator like an org? That alone should give them more value in negotiations. Not 85% value but above “industry standards” for sure.

[@paduarafael52]

​@@TheNamesSlick The middleman is more valuable to the sponsors than the creators in this case, that's why they are getting majority of that deal.

[@tylerlynn9680]

100T is a management agency, and a gaming org

[@tokarigato3228]

@@TheNamesSlick so here it goes - 100T gives them 240k a year in salary, 2.5k each in rent per month, 2.5k for content budget. On top of these regular pay that the Mob gets, they get to keep all content they do (yt, twitch, etc). Only thing 100T is asking for is 85% of sponsorship which where they COULD get their ROI (i'm pretty sure it was also 100T who got these sponsors. Lol). I think that's more than a fair deal.

[@paduarafael52]

@@TheNamesSlick they signed it because even 15% of sponsorship deals is 6x more than they will get if they are not affiliated with 100T. they made 30k from 1 deal just because they are affiliated.. most 200-500 viewer streamers are lucky to even get 5k per sponsor..

[@heartribbonhairband]

@@tokarigato3228 Charlie, who actually owns a similar type of company thinks the cut is ridiculous too. Can't believe people stoop so low as to defend million/billionaires. (the funder for 100T is just that)

[@starbarzs7160]

If you're getting paid 60k a year, I'd expect some cuts to be taken from your sponsorship deals. The real deal is this - you're not fighting for sponsorships, because you have a reliable backing from your Org, you're given a cushion & a soft cap. Do you make every penny from a sponsorship? No. Do you have reliable income & the ad revenue from your videos and content? Yes. Imagine having reliable income, being served sponsorships, and a huge change to grow your Personal & Group brand - but complaining after you hardly put out content. Was it an oversight to let the kids have free reign? Yes, they should've had a more affordable living situation (although Froste said 100T required being close to the compound) and they should've been cooking some meals instead of doordash 24/7. Do a cooking stream for christ sake, even if it's scuffed you can laugh it off and save some cash

[@battlebots1]

100%

[@belleslovinit]

College students move to different states without a stable income or "oversight" all the time. Ridiculous that this grown adult could not handle living out of home with a 60k minimum salary for 40 hours PER month worth of work.

[@DaxtheMilkMan]

You know it’s a good day when a mogul mail gets posted!

[@Bunereal]

Or a bad one

[@sunnyd1722]

Honestly it’s a bad day because it means something bad went down

[@justintime8]

For this particular situation I don't have an issue with the 85%. They were such small streamers when they joined that I see the $60k salaries as basically an advance and they would recoup their losses on the sponsorships. After a couple years, if the mob panned out, they could renegotiate the terms. Now if Fuslie, Tina, and Nicewigg are only keeping 15% then there are issues.

[@Primarch42]

I disagree, it’s still incredibly predatory. Look at moistcritikals group for how it should be done, 10%-20% maximum.

[@markkelso871]

exactly. I feel like people are glossing over this... 100t isn't going to broker a tiny little sponsorship deal for them and take 85% of it. This is for the big ones they have absolutely no shot at getting on their own. The contracts they got were insanely fair and the percentages make a ton of sense to me. If they grew and garnered some more sponsorships inside that year then 100t makes some of their money back on them and they clearly can renegotiate for year 2. They floundered and SOMEHOW nadeshot resigns them for a 2nd year (he really did stick his neck out, never would have happened anywhere else).

[@justintime8]

@@Primarch42 It is entirely possible 100T should have simply gone with the conventional esports method of offering salaries that range from $0 to less than minimum wage and only kept 15% of the sponsorships.

[@mikedavidson6454]

Thats literally why its predatory though. 100T was never going to renegotiate that contract once the mob got big(which is obviously the goal on both sides signing these contracts). They were hoping the mob would become a fuslie or lud and then they have 85% of their sponsorships and still have people who would go to bat for them because they would just say 100T "made them". Thats why people think its still predatory even if its potentially justified in the current situation. Because never once has an 85% cut deal been in favor of the person whos only getting 15% lmao.

[@markkelso871]

@@mikedavidson6454 of course they would renegotiate. It was a 1 year contract.

[@ChrisB_1982]

They are getting a base salary of 60k. Please tell me where a 20 year old with a HS diploma can get an entry level job anywhere at 60k with incentives and bonues. Also the percentage taken isn't as valuable as the 100T name on your stream and backing you. The networking and colabs that you get from joining 100T are way more valuable then any percentage they could take.

[@quickdropz]

I don't even think all of them graduated from high school... Yeah joining 100T they all grew 10x as creators pretty much instantly. If only they took advantage of that though instead of Froste gambling all of salary away.

[@zeusstormbolt8116]

60k isnt high man, it’s liveable but not lavish. And pretty sure most jobs offer more than that in the US

[@quickdropz]

@@zeusstormbolt8116 Minimum wage comes out to under $30k a year while working more hours in a week than Froste did a month. Something like 60% of workers make minimum wage. And Froste was making well over $100k a year.

[@engels9629]

@@zeusstormbolt8116 60k is average if you're a college grad. These guys don't even all have hs diplomas

[@ChrisB_1982]

@@zeusstormbolt8116 What??? Most jobs don't offer 60k a year. Most entry level jobs with degrees might get you 50ish at the most but normally it will be 35-40 to start and that's 40 hours a week not 40 hours a month. And again 60k is a base salary. Between endorsement deals, sponsored streams, plus the extra food stipends and video creator budget. It's upwards of 85-100k a year.

[@Chris-ou6od]

Your average person isn’t coddled through a career. It doesn’t take mentoring to know you can’t get the top results with the least effort. You have to be responsible for your choices, and that’s that. And through their previous success, they knew that. Just thought they could coast on through now that they had 100T in their twitter bio.

[@kipidy16]

while content creators are people too and absolutely deserve to be treated as such, point blank the mob was just lazy. you cannot work as a content creator on a fixed salary for a huge org, make piss poor living arrangements, only to not put in nearly enough work. i think they had high expectations and a skewed vision of what content creation is like, just as most people do. most people think content creation doesnt take nearly as much effort as it actually does, and thats no fault of 100T. every content creator tells people how hard it is, how much work they put in, there are hundreds of free resources online that refute this. honestly, i barely blame 100T at all for what ended up happening, most of the guys just simply didnt have the mindset or work ethic for it.

[@retro527]

What bothers me the most is how they lived. Froste complained about the low pay when they lived in a HELLA nice house and ordered takeout every day. Like wtf. Where’s the struggle??

[@Asumji]

Hm yes mail from the mogul

[@thewild2703]

I can hear Ludwig saying that in his posh new hampshire accent

[@comedyzone]

I typically agree with Ludwig's opinion, logically speaking, he's generally balanced and has a good take. I think in this particular instance he's incorrect. The (up to) 85% was apart of a salary agreement of $2500 a month per person. If there was no Salary from the 'team' and it was all based on brand deals, then yes this is outrageous. But for the viewership and potential earnings that these streamers had, the 'team' had to make $30k per person aka $150k per year in PROFITS just to break even on salary (30x 4 plus the extra 30 for content costs) before even considering marketing, editing and other resources that the 'team' brought to the picture. I wholeheartedly agree that these eSports teams are all shit and predatory, I would never want any streamers I support to join one and if I were ever good enough to be in one, wouldn't want to join one myself, but given the facts of this 'case' I don't think that 100T overstepped with the 85% agreement. If the creators in question become very big, then they could/should negotiate that back down to 20% and drop the salary aspect or go their seperate ways, but the situation as laid out by 'nadeshot' is, in my opinion, reasonable.

[@tikkstr]

I found myself disagreeing with Lud a bit as well, The Mob was able to keep all the money earned from streaming and ad revenue. The brand deals were just one bonus thing that 100T brought along with visibility, connections for collabs and a stable salary. Unbelievable how this is drama, luckily most people seem to be on the orgs side.

[@WeebJail]

its their JOB to bring in revenue from brand deals. having expenses is not an excuse to exploit your employees. if they want more money it's their job to sell more, better deals. if they can't, they shouldn't be signing them. 85% is not anywhere even close to reasonable. if my employer says 'oh shit sorry im going bankrupt i cant pay you,' i sue them. that's not my problem, even if i'm useless. it's their responsibility, and it's their problem.

[@loki350]

@@WeebJail Your example is shit because that's not how shit works, or occurred. 100T offers deal. Mob accepts deal. The deal is the deal. It's their responsibility to assess the validity of that deal. If you get hired at a certain rate, you get paid that rate. You can complain about what you get paid, but changing it is completely up to how your employer feels about you. Further, while your employer can't withhold your pay, they can certainly cut it. If you don't like the treatment, don't take it. Exploitive pay rates and the ethics behind it is a better argument. However, the underlying questions are always "do I need them more than they need me" and "how much value do i actually provide"

[@WeebJail]

@@loki350 i never said the deal they took is illegal or anything. i said saying it's fucking shit and having expenses isn't an excuse for being shit because that's the employer's responsibility. my example was about principle not an actual parallel lol im not saying they should sue them

[@comedyzone]

@@WeebJail Sure except that at your job you aren't offered an additional income stream for doing your work as well as additional commissions. Most commission jobs are sub 10% OR they are more but don't offer a salary. You can't have your cake and eat it too. This was a good deal for them as new talent to get their feet wet. If they became big streamers as a result, they could renegotiate down to sub 20% and stop taking a salary, as the brand deals and income from subs/bits/donations etc would well and truly cover them.

[@WoodyRYW]

I was so beyond frustrated with how ungrateful and pathetic Froste was through this. How someone could have the opportunity of a lifetime given to them and then not put in at least minimal work is just…unreal. I’m a failed streamer, and there’s no shame in failing especially when an honest effort is given. Sometimes things just don’t work out and that’s okay. But for Froste to complain through this when the dude streamed a total of 955 hours from June 14th, 2019 to May, 29th 2021 - there’s no excuses. You don’t need to be spending 500 dollars to upload a KZbin video either. During that timeframe, I streamed 4,328 hours. Again, failure is nothing to be ashamed of because people fail all of the time. But this was a slap in the face to all small creators that would do anything for an opportunity of that caliber. I have loved 100 Thieves for years, and if that was me that was signed I would guarantee you there wouldn’t be a discussion of effort given during the time there. He can complain about the contract things all he wants - the reality is that 100 Thieves had all the leverage. Honestly, Nadeshot was extremely generous in the contract given these weren’t guys that were averaging thousands of viewers or 6 digit views on KZbin videos. But regardless of all of that, he signed it. AND then re-signed later on. Send the contract to a lawyer, or just literally anyone else to have a separate set of eyes look over things to make sure you fully understand what’s going on. I don’t have sympathy for someone who was my age, 21 years old, for signing something stupid. He can claim he was young and dumb and Nadeshot took advantage of him, but I’m sorry to break it to him - that might just be his issue.

[@MistahShootrES]

Preciate you sharing your thoughts and experience!

[@Miipmiip]

Yeah! I mean - I will say 85% is taking advantage of the creator but still

[@Zoe-dl7wz]

thank you for giving the comparison in hours of streaming he had done in that time period and the hours you had done, really helps to give a better idea of the situation. sorry to hear that streaming didn’t work out for you, sounds like you were super committed to it though and a work ethic like that is what i think froste needed.

[@cianmeyer9289]

Thank you for the school essay but I agree with what your saying

[@katersss]

that makes sense! ty

[@ryanwolfe2232]

I think that benefit of joining an org is so you initially can use their supports and other creators to grow yourself. That is why I believe the salary is as low as it is and that the deals are so wildly lopsided. Keep in mind these guys are getting maybe a few hundred viewers at the time too so its kind of a long shot for 100T to sign these guys in the first place. I think that the take of 100T is predatory is wild however, the sponsor deals part of it yes is somewhat fucked but the idea behind those is that your money is coming from how hard you work (aka how often you stream do collabs etc) because again I believe when you're first joining an org traditionally as a smaller creator you're not using them as a means for money out of the gate but as a way to gain a platform so that you can grow and support yourself. If you zoom out on this whole situation how can you justify as an org paying guys 60k a year to guys that barely get to 40hrs a month of streaming and are only getting a hundred or so viewers?? Nade said this in his video that he fought to keep them around because of that very reason, no other execs at the org saw their value. I think 100T took a shot on the mob, the mob (mainly froste the others worked quite hard) didn't use the opportunity and saw it as a free ride and are now sad that their ride is over.

[@alexjames4770]

I understand that an 85% cut is horrible, however they essentially made roughly $75k+ each while working 8 hours a week and not making content for YT. I think 100T is one of the least predatory orgs out there right now. FaZe, C9, etc, have reputations for these kinds of things, and way worse.

[@jmandagamer]

I don’t understand why everyone stuck on the 85%… while yes it’s a high percentage, from a business side how are they supposed to recoup their money? Paying these guys tons of money and giving them a budget for videos they gotta make a return on their investment in these creators…

[@Glazierstar]

@@jmandagamer Exactly everyone is fixed on 85 percent. But they're also forgetting is 85 percent of deal 100T BRINGS TO THE MOB. Froste said himself for the fireball deal he got from his friend that 100T took no cut. Like what? Sounds to me like they're getting a free 15 percent more than the 0 they would have without 100T?

[@m.b.s.g.]

Yeah I hate that Ludwig is biased in this video and seems to be bashing 100T without basis.

[@GLUFSAREN]

@@jmandagamer Through merch and other stuff, if the mob actually did the work, they would have grown and they release 100T merch for them like every other creator they have. They are essentially a merch company. 85% is what people are focused on because it's the only bad thing about the deal. Everything else Nade said is 100% good. Even the 85% makes sense if it's just at the start while they don't bring in so much money so the 85% will get lower as they grow bigger, that would have made sense to me. So if they put in the work, with the help of 100T and grow their brands, they make more money and the cut they receive is higher because the sponsorship money grows with their growth. Froste's whole argument falls through because he didn't do the work, he didn't stream while being on 100T if he did he could have had some legs to stand on when he argued all this. But he just didn't. The 85% is the only good argument he has, even if Froste himself said it was 95% so he lied there too.

[@ravencl]

100t fanboy

[@synthiandrakon]

"I didn't have money to make content" it's like bro just play hide and seek or something in your $10k a month house 💀

[@smartkaboose3806]

The reason ludwig remembers working for 15 an hour but also 12.50 is because he would steal so many TV's he could make an extra 2.50 an hour. He's been on the grind so long, wow.

[@iscaf6937]

I actually really disagree with Lud here. When it comes to the home that is on the Mob. Maybe I am weird, but when I got my first full-time paying job, I had to move out to a city, and my employer didn't house hunt with me. 100T had no obligation to help them, but they did because they wanted them to succeed. The original idea also sounds like the 60k a year was not supposed to be their main form of income. It was supposed to be streaming and youtube, which didn't get any cut. If they would have even had the same level of success with viewers and just did it constantly, they would have had the money. When it comes to 85%, I think that is the only way 100T can make their money back. I think taking a change of a few 100 viewer Andys and paying a quarter of a million a year they just had to have a way to make the money back. At the end of the day, these were year-long deals that would have been renegotiated at the end of the year. 100T bet was that this group would be successful and then they would make enough money from brand deals that it would make up for the 60k plus whatever else they spent money on whoever helped them make the little content they made. Overall, orgs and agencies make sense for some creators but not all. Some streamers just lack all adult functioning skills, XQC, for example, needs someone to focus on the business end of his stream. They just want to focus on streaming and have an agency bring the deals to them and deal with it if they do something like forget to do a shout-out. You also can get a different tier of brands for sponsorships. 100T, for example, has recently done brand deals with Tiffany and Gucci. That is not something that 1 creator would easily be able to get (plus easy collabs and brand-growing stuff). From my understanding (which is limited), Slime is pretty much Ludwig's agency/esports team. That is why I think Lud isn't able to see the value that an esports team might have because he has had someone that has helped him with that from day 1.

[@jackassmr33]

i totally agree, how else should 100T make any money out of them?

[@_holy__ghost]

yeah its really weird that ludwig didnt point out any of these points, he just saw 85% and lost his shit. also, expecting the org to play babysitter to grown adults? 'theyre 19 years old and have never lived alone before' well tough shit, i guess its time they learn. when i spend my salary on random shit i dont expect my boss to sit me down and explain financial independence to me. super weird video.

[@byAshh]

this right here. 100T is paying EACH 60-65k/y. THEY ARE A BUSINESS, WITH INVESTORS. They have to make that money back somewhere. Sponsorships was their spot. Otherwise 100T is fucking over investors by paying these guys a quarter million a year and not getting any of it back.Nadeshot is a smart businessman, i assume the 85% in their contract was his way of getting the board to sign off on that expense.

[@rowtechshio875]

​@@jackassmr33 True, very true, that's just the nature of the deal, but I think the reason that it can be alarming to see 85% is because creators could simply be taking *all* of it if they made that themselves. Ofc this is the classic "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" argument but a lot of us believe we could just be doing what 100T is doing, ourselves, so why would I, for instance, let something like 100T take 85% of what I could just be making myself? I think that's where the negative reaction is coming from.

[@zilliq]

Yeah I also found it weird when he said "why should I hire an agency when I can pay my friends who know the industry". Yeah sure, an even better idea is to have your dad know the industry, then you don't even need to pay him. He's lucky to have the possibility to work with his friends it's not a given

[@arvidrenblad7896]

man I am such a youtube frog by saying this, but mogul mail is (in my opinion) peak Ludwig. I havent enjoyed something this much in some time, maybe it is the fact that (unlike some streams where he can get off topic or w.e) he is 100% real and he is speaking from his heart with no intention of turning or twisiting stories and just speaking what he is thinking. Absolutely love it!

[@OrdinarySense]

The 85% aslo paid for the production team to come over and film it... the editing team to edit it... on top of getting the actual brand deals only because they were in 100T. I admit 85% seems very bad... but all they had to do was show up, read their lines and joke around with each other. Everything was taken care of.

[@chasespringer5823]

15% bonus for any sponsorship GIVEN to you while also making a guaranteed 2500 per month even if you only stream...9 hours a weeK? Yeah these entitled little shits can fuck all the way off with calling this "predatory." it's very standard

[@kzuv7615]

So celebrities should give 85%of their money to their company cause they also just show up and read lines and do some acting?

[@ophayi]

@@kzuv7615 the actor's salary is only some percents of the budget of a movie. It works the same way. In this case, the budget are the brand deal

[@roonsters6298]

@@kzuv7615 seems like you were one of those who got fooled that actors are rich? entertainment industry does not pay well if you are not an A-List celebrity similar with companies you work for them you will not get 100% of the cut because you are a WORKER out of MANY who has to get paid that day you worked with them

[@lethalpigeon96tt]

@@kzuv7615 The complete difference is these guys were recieving around 200k total in salaries, content budget ect. 100t were never making money back on that as they were so small. If they grew they could have argued for a better wage later

[@kinapio3201]

I don't agree with lud's take, don't think 100t should be babysitting a bunch of adults that live in a house together. Matt gave The Mob an opportunity to become bigger and to grow under the 100T name, that doesn't mean Matt has to take care of everything that they do including housing and what to eat or what videos to film, imo that's up to the content creators themselves. Matt simply is just their boss and their friend but that doesn't mean he has to babysit a bunch of immature 20 year olds. Also what pisses me off is the amount of entitlement that comes from Froste is what really imo people are noticing about his reaction to Nade's video and his tweets.

[@b11nk]

While I'm usually in agreement to most Mogul Mails and have been watching for a while, I'm not sure I agree with a lot of the points here. While an agency usually takes a much smaller percentage of sponsorship deals like the ones given to the Mob, I'm pretty sure those agencies aren't also paying $60k salaries to their clients. I think given the circumstances of each side, 100T being a business and the members of the Mob trying to grow an audience, each side had their respective benefits in signing a contract that afforded 100T a portion of sponsorship deals, maybe a larger portion than just a management agency. I also have to completely disagree with the idea that 100T should help facilitate the lives of the creators. As the creators make the deals to sign a contract like that, 100T *should* do the due diligence to guide them in terms of content and marketing and other spheres relevant to the deal but to ask 100T to literally babysit their creators in personal finance and wellbeing is completely ludicrous. 100T is a business at the end of a day, while they predicate themselves on a feeling of family, they cannot be expected to act as parents when signing a business agreement. Regardless, I'm glad you brought this topic up and I hope that more conversations stem from this situation regarding ethicalities of content creation and esports organizations because I'm hoping to enter the industry myself.

[@es_fernyy]

As a counter point, I would be interested to see what kind of benefits are offered by companies like 100T, like every other normal job/career. In general, a financial advisor, much like a doctor or therapist, would not be a bad thing to have on a list of benefits. Actually I currently work for “the siren” and most folks join for the benefits. We get a huge list of them like Spotify or free rides to work (at certain times), and I still think we deserve more/better. But I still work hard for myself and my team. I don’t think it’s shocking to ask one (1) ☝️ benefit from 100T. So there’s some context for ya

[@Heat12Champs]

@@es_fernyy i believe nadeshot said it before that they have all the basic benefits. Ex : 401k dental and medical. They also have a therapist at their compound from what all the teams and creators have said. Also said in regards to time off they have unlimited PTO. Which i find insane.

[@ValorantCurios]

My gut feeling says the 85% retainer is so if these streamers got sold off to KZbin or some massive deal goes through they'd end up exercising that option. Though, I see wrong doing on both side easily

[@GeneralN0va]

Yeah, uber eats and doordashing basically all your meals is EXPENSIVE. I'm talking about minimum $25/day per person (without counting tips), $175/week, $758/month, $9100/year. It's about the choices they made that led to no money.

[@iron545]

frostie is delusional man, if he just streamed 6 hours a day, 5 days a week. with the access to sponsorships, brand deals and collaborations. the mob got to pick their housing that mess was on them. the mob editor come out with a massive list of video ideas? guy showed SO MANY video ideas that they had come up with, most of them free (to counter the point of 100t denying money from content budget so they couldn't make any videos), and the ONLY person who had ever opened the google doc was classify.

[@comicmoniker]

Wow. If true, that's damning to frostie

[@_holy__ghost]

yeah its really weird that ludwig didnt point out any of these points, he just saw 85% and lost his shit. also, expecting the org to play babysitter to grown adults? 'theyre 19 years old and have never lived alone before' well tough shit, i guess its time they learn. when i spend my salary on random shit i dont expect my boss to sit me down and explain financial independence to me. super weird video.

[@comicmoniker]

@@_holy__ghost i think, overall, Ludwig was condemning the streamers more than the org. But the *advice* portion was more focused on his views that orgs are not something he thinks are all that useful. Honestly, I can *sort of* see his point on the "babysitting" thing - in many industries, if you have a person or company who's job it is to act as a manager, the expectation is that their job is to handle a variety of small things so that the "talent" can solely concern themselves with the content. Whereas an agent might be focused more exclusively on deals, and an investor's only real job is to provide funding. Streamer orgs sort of position themselves as all three. It sounds like 100T understood the agent and investor parts well, but *perhaps* could have handled the manager part differently. There may be more info out there about how explicitly the relationship was defined, or maybe there was a misaligned assumption from the two parties. I don't know enough to say.

[@_holy__ghost]

@@comicmoniker nah man, the job of a manager is to remind you of your dentist appointment, not to explain to you why you cant get doordash for every meal. they knew how much they were spending, they just didnt care.

[@comicmoniker]

@@_holy__ghost personally, I agree. But it's wild what goes on in the entertainment industry. Completely different world with a surprising lack of common sense

[@sanhakim1335]

It seems that esports orgs are like music publishers where they're really good for smaller creators to grow, but after they grow the company leeches off the successful ones to cover the costs of all the failures

[@Chachixo]

I don't think 100T does this though. Pretty sure they renegotiate every year or two and they base it on what you bring to company. Rae got equity when she renewed her contract because that was the type of deal that made sense for her platform size at the time and not in 2018 when she signed.

[@quickdropz]

Nope. These contracts are typically 1-2 years and then they get renewed with new terms once they are up. If those creators grew, did the work, and deserved a second contract they would of course have gotten higher pay. However, they didn't do the work. They couldn't meet their sponsors requirements. They were lazy. They were not profitable so they were not resigned and instead cut.

[@zeusstormbolt8116]

Thats how investing works :)

[@musicdude1540]

You have no idea what a "music publisher " is.

[@wendyc3689]

I have to disagree with the housing responsibilities. I was offered a promotion across the country and my employer helped with the move but it was not their responsibility to tell me what I should pay in housing all I was informed was the distance from work I had to leave from. Additionally you cannot use someone’s age as an excuse on why they needed help. They should of had their agents or even parents look into the contracts before jumping into a plane and coming to LA. everyone is saying 100T is a predator for taking 85% when they put their resources and people for theses deals. I honestly believe Frostee came in thinking he didn’t have to handle anything and 100T would provide. But that is not how life works you gotta ask question you have continue to strive and be able to lay in bed knowing you have it your all.

[@MattEatsMochi]

How old were you when you got the job you moved for?

[@sclarint]

Honestly frosty almost helped 100 thieves by saying 95% so when they said it was 85% people were less surprised

[@Gadriel1987]

I usually agree with Ludwig’s thoughts, but his take on the 85% cut was biased on the side of the streamer. It was the org who found the deal and gone through the negotiations, and who knows how long that took and what resources it took. I’m assuming they had to pay legal fees as well for lawyers to go over the contracts. They need a bigger cut to pay off other people as well aside from the content creator and also make money for themselves. And they didn’t even take 85% sometimes and have given more to the content creator. So I guess it is based on what the deal was that they got. Just my personal opinion.

[@jle7647]

Yeah if it was a big creator then yes thats a bad deal but for some small creators who wouldnt get the sponsorship without 100T its a fair trade

[@MadRaiiden]

And that's not even mentioning how that 85% on brand deals is apparently the only cut they take (if they want to and seemingly don't always do it) The creator gets a base salary and all the twitch/youtube revenue for themselves. Lud's takes are most of the time biased on the streamer side for these things, which makes sense as he is one himself He said it himself that he'd "always side with the human and not the huge corporation", though seeing 100T as a huge corporation there might be a bit of a stretch hahaha

[@MaxMustermann-hy9in]

Well, if you want to see the view of another manager, then head over to penguinz0. He did a video on the topic too, and he also owns a company of his own, Human Media Group, which also does ad negotiations for streamers. Long story short, he actually says the same as Ludwig.

[@Gadriel1987]

@@MaxMustermann-hy9in his take is also more biased towards streamers. He made the management company for streamers so they could make more. He made it for that purpose, so all efforts that go into it are to make sure streamers make more which is not the same as other organizations. His management company can be seen more as a “non-profit” organization that helps out streamers rather than a corporation like 100 Thieves.

[@chasespringer5823]

your opinion is 100% accurate. Ludwig doesn't know shit about subcontracting and sponsorships found through your employer as he's handed all of his on silver platters by his agent. He had absolutely no business speaking on any of this and just muddied the water further, especially for young content creators trying to make it. Word of advice, if one of the biggest esports teams in the country comes to your stream, which is averaging 100-300 viewers, and offers you 15,000 to advertise Multiversus for an hour, but they're gonna make 85,000....you fucking take it.

[@BrammerMS]

Myth is an amazing example of taking that luck you get and making the most of it. He blew up from a clip vs summit, he used that to change his life forever and kept on the grind.

[@kazamasta3147]

One thing I disagree with Lud here is his take on the house. Its not on 100T to approve or deny what house the guys live in. Sure theyre on the younger side and might not know much about the "real world". At the end of the day its on the mob guys to do their DD if their base salary from 100T goes straight to rent well maybe its not a good idea to get a $10,000 house.

[@bluejohn1855]

Lol imagine your boss telling you that your not allowed to rent the house you want.

[@carto4028]

I mean...yeah your right. It's not technically their job. But I mean...I feel like you should look after a bunch of barely adults under your contract. I feel like the guys not having some sort of financial guidance is a liability from the corporate perspective.

[@bluejohn1855]

@@carto4028 do you think the NFL or MLB would consider it appropriate to tell their first round picks what houses they can pick? Those guys also have to live a certain distance to the facility but they make exponentially more money.

[@carto4028]

Okay okay your right. It's just frustrating seeing someone make reckless financial decisions.

[@bluejohn1855]

@@carto4028 I feel you Brody.

[@Omega-hd7gf]

ludwig looks so good without a headset but whenever he puts on this one he just looks like a rectangle

[@djhart25]

Never heard of it being an employers responsibility to keep track of where their employees are living, and that they are spending their money responsibly. They aren't parents.

[@nicorobin5978]

Froste is the avocado toast guy all boomers talk about that no one thought actually existed.

[@MadRaiiden]

Just based on this video as it's all the context I have. It seems this deal wasn't as predatory as Lud makes it seem. I see way worse in other industries. - Having the option to retain 85% of brand deal revenue is a bit much, but 100T ended up not waving it twice. 100T paid salaries to these guys, gave them access to their plateform, gave them access to all the people 100T employs, and even helped them finding a house. 100T is a not a charitable non-profit association that is there to create creators free of charge. It's a company, and companies need to make money somehow. 35% might even still be on the high end of the spectrum, but looks like it's all the money they take. At no point was it mentioned that they also took a % of streaming revenue or any other profit. - I don't know in what world would the company that's hiring you have to teach you how to be reasonable and teach you how to live. They could give advice about the renting market and what to do and not do, but there isn't a world where it's their job to go "hey now this isn't a house in your budget, I'm putting my foot down, you can't rent it". If you make that stupid decision, whether you're 18 or 35, it's on you. - They would've gained from having the mob there, if these dudes did their part of the deal. 2500$ a month in LA might not be a lot, but it was intended to be in addition to their streaming revenue, in addition to their other content posted on youtube, in addition to their share of the brand deals. 100T didn't offer them an all paid vacation in LA, they offer them to come work there. These guys not fulfilling their end of the contract and complaining this wasn't enough money is all sorts of stupid on their own end. - Classify is the only member of the Mob I knew, and still know, he participated in a ton of 100T videos and put himself out there. His humour wasn't my cup of tea but that's not on him. So props to this guy for trying. Happy to see there is no (apparent) bad blood there

[@AMMARvx]

orgs aren’t weird tbh, they add value to you by adding you to content and getting you around big content creators if you’re lacking in that department. You ludwig, signing with anyone, makes 0 sense whatsoever because u started HUGE, you blew up too fast for an org to be an option because you’ll be the one adding value to them and not them to you, even tho the org content is still something people like a lot.

[@asion09]

Ludwig was a small streamer for years before he blew up. Do you really think you have more knowledge about the industry than someone who’s been in it for years? Orgs CAN add value but they also CAN stifle growth which they did with the mob by just giving them whatever they wanted without any guidance or help.

[@Flippity08]

@@asion09 how long has he been in the industry? Also pretty sure lud hasn’t been in an org so stop just disproving this guy for no reason

[@joaonorberto483]

Yep, ask any 100-500 viewer streamer if they would accept to be paid 2500 a month be in a Ludwig Org in exchange of a 85% take off any sponsor Lud gets them...

[@certainsomeone64]

@@asion09 yeah and guess what he did when he was that small streamer with "only" hundreds of viewers? He asked to join 100T. Of course they ignored him though lol

[@alexandrebelair4360]

@@joaonorberto483 Not the point.

[@__-nd5qi]

Mob: We didn’t get paid Nade: Bro you didn’t even work

[@chiefowl]

i really love that you provide enough info in these for people who had no clue about the situation to make their own decisions. love the mogul mails

[@EricTheSwede]

I get this "taking 85% is bad" thing, but would these 3-4-500 viewer streamers get ANY brand deals worth that much without the 100T name?

[@aryajpegasus]

would 100T make ANY money at all without their creators? nope. I agree with lud here. the actual value is with the creator. middlemen should only get a small fraction of whatever exchange they're facilitating

[@Box-box]

@@aryajpegasus to be fair, i’m pretty sure the contract numbers depends on how big the content creators are.

[@carlsong6438]

@@aryajpegasus it wouldn't happen without creator OR org in this case. That's why it's a consensual contract. They could say no.

[@zeusstormbolt8116]

@@carlsong6438 this. Its a greedy number, but you should consult someone before signing such contracts and perhaps negotiate, or say no.

[@paduarafael52]

@@aryajpegasus Dude the sponsor didn't sign the deal because of the creator, they signed it because of the middleman hahahaha of course they are getting majority of the cut. the middleman was more valuable the the creator here

[@0106johnny]

It's absurd to me that a 20 year old is that inept to understand what they sign and agree to if I'm honest.

[@jessesummer-lavigne269]

Dave Chappelle made the same mistake.

[@epazote4204]

20 year olds are dumb as fuck? wdym?

[@mia_2043]

Lmao have ever you met a 20 year old gamer boy

[@MajinZilla]

TFue did the same tho

[@shawnseagraves1070]

They had a bonus for streaming, anywhere from 20-65 percent of brand deals, lived in a mansion, and had their own money from their personal KZbin and streams. What more money and opportunities did they need? Look at every other member of that org. They just messed up

[@chuomge6598]

If I had the opportunity to join a massive esports organization like 100 Thieves, but I'd have to give up 85% of sponsorship money, I'd sign it in an instant. Just being in that circle would give you so much knowledge and you'd be brought into activities that would help grow your channel. For a small creator a deal like that doesn't seem as bad, but once they get big you then start to see the problem like with Tfue and Faze. Maybe a hot take but I think that a split like that for a TWITTER creator is decent. They were still given money for rent and food (even though they spent it extremely irresponsibly) and I personally think that a split like that is in place for instances such as the mob house where the people who they are paying good money to make content for them get extremely lazy. I usually don't side with the big corp but in some cases if you're doing lazy content like tweeting for your job a split like that isn't so bad.

[@patrickmcpartland1398]

What color boot polish tastes the best off your bosses shoes?

[@_holy__ghost]

yeah its really weird that ludwig didnt point out any of these points, he just saw 85% and lost his shit. also, expecting the org to play babysitter to grown adults? 'theyre 19 years old and have never lived alone before' well tough shit, i guess its time they learn. when i spend my salary on random shit i dont expect my boss to sit me down and explain financial independence to me. super weird video.

[@Hm-ex6to]

not the gangster slit on the fade hahahah

[@jordanmclean3987]

Best part was Froste basically saying 'source: trust me bro'

[@beachedwhale12]

nadeshot gave them them an insane opportunity and they didnt do anything with it

[@TonyB369]

I honestly find it hard to throw shade on 100T. A lot of what they did was the industry standard. Overall this is an org that really cares about its members. At the end of the day, Froste signed the deal and didn't put the work in after being in many people's dream scenario. But that's just my opinion and I hope both parties do well moving forward. I would highly recommend Devin Nash's video on the topic for more in-depth detail on the situation.

[@theAlex2577]

he just said the industry standard is 20% and they took 85% lmao

[@TonyB369]

@@theAlex2577 go watch devin nash's video on the topic. I'm not saying what 100T did was the best or even the right choice but it's not AS ridiculous as many people are making it seem without context

[@byAshh]

@@theAlex2577 these are 100 viewer andy’s on twitch, & 0 youtube presence. 100T has to be able to make a return on investment after paying 200k/y (60-65k/each member) on them together. That deal is fair.

[@theAlex2577]

@@TonyB369 then thats why the title is correct, esports teams are super predatory towards their content creators

[@theAlex2577]

@@byAshh lol no its not, just because they didnt have a platform doesnt mean you should steal the value they created, the company is paying THEM to advertise to THEIR viewers, it doesnt matter if its 100 viewers or 100k viewers. a middle man should only take a commission, if 100t wants more money to recoup get bigger brand deals so that 20% is worth more

[@e.d.5766]

I don't think it's fair to call the 100 Thieves brand deals predatory unless content creators aren't allowed to make brand deals that don't come from 100 Thieves. It's kind of weird for so many people to call it predatory for no reason other than the number being big.

[@Thermolizer]

Exactly, it's the same thing as these rappers who sign away their masters and image rights to these labels and complain when the labels take all their money. Read the contracts you sign and make sure you are happy with the terms!

[@Miriam_J_]

The creator is doing all the work while the company gets all the money. This isn't fair. Maybe the streamers wouldn't get brand deals on their own, that's true, but there is no world 100 Thieves would be getting sponsorships without streamers. The brands can go to the streamers if the decide to all leave, 100 Thieves is fucked if all of its creators leave.

[@e.d.5766]

@@Miriam_J_ I would agree with this in general, but I feel like it's not necessarily predatory to provide what is admittedly a fairly bad offer to a streamer you're taking a huge risk on. It's also worth remembering that, as far as I'm aware, the brands can go directly to the streamers if they choose to, so if the Mob wanted more for their brand deals they could have been more actively seeking brand deals instead of only taking them through 100 Thieves. I'm not saying it's good, but I think there's a nuance to it that most people are ignoring. It's also possible that, with more information on their contracts or how 100 Thieves' runs their business, 100 Thieves are totally in the wrong on this.

[@alexpaik2983]

moist esports would never

[@skrubbed]

this is my second mogul mail, i could probably listen to luddy for like idk a long time

[@MikeeJoness956]

You got to respect Ludwig for being direct whether friend or fo. He keeps it real

[@chasespringer5823]

I don't respect someone talking out their ass and pretending they have authority to speak on it, especially when part of that involves slandering his friend's company as "predatory" by poorly explaining how subcontracting sponsorships works.

[@toppermusic]

If you sign a deal you cannot turn around and complain about the terms. You’re an adult, act like it

[@howdee_]

I think something that people aren’t taking into account is that the 85% doesn’t last forever. It’s very hard to get sponsorship deals when your small and while up yes 85 percent is excessive the deals that they get aren’t the same as the deals people with millions of viewers get. Usually the bigger you get the less worth it it becomes to join an org so they start taking less and less until you just leave

[@Legitti]

85Thieves

[@SorenSPG]

Some compilation vids have taken your words out of context in this. Glad I came and watched this vid for clarification.

[@juun1952]

froste acting like hes owed the world for doing little to no work

[@briceknemeyer5834]

I think getting the deal and talking the company into giving a good sponsor to a smaller creator is a lot more work... and I think it's on them with the 10k a month rent I'm a 21 year old and I know that was just stupid no matter how much you make.. and I know some are gonna say that frosty isn't that small of a streamer and I agree from a personal perspective 500 people is a lot but from a business perspective I would rather sponsor someone like valkyrae or courage because at least then I know I'm hitting 10k people or more for my money. But this is just my opinion keep it up lud good video as always

[@AdrianComoro]

Yes, I agree. They chose the house and 100 Thieves did take a good amount of money on their sponsorships, but overall they didn’t work and expected to be comfortable when they joined the org

[@DeathKiller362]

my problem is why are they assuming that they'd be small forever? like sure maybe 85% makes more sense for a super small creator? possibly? but if you're paying these people to make content why the fuck would you not have some deal that when they hit a certain number of followers or views or something that the percentage starts to go down...because that's what makes sense no different than when a company makes more money they should be able to pay their employees more too, except in this case it's more taking away less money but ends up the same

[@sh0ckzs325]

@@DeathKiller362 100t expected them to blow up. they had a dedicated twitter following and they never transitioned it into viewership. Also I am 100% sure they would have renegotiated their contract if they did just like how Myth renegotiated his contract with TSM after he blew up. They had the tools, some monetary support and dedicated following. Other than Class and Ava, Froste is just spoiled and wanted to be spoonfed. Even their editor in JHB worked and grinded now becoming one of the beloved creators in 100T.

[@briceknemeyer5834]

@@DeathKiller362 I see what your saying but I'm pretty sure there contracts were only 1 year long so they could always renegotiate and if the sponsor went to the mob themselves when they blew up I don't think that was against 100 thieves contract (but I could be wrong since the contracts aren't public info) it was stated they only took 85% of the sponsors 100 thieves got them so if they got there own sponsors I would guess they would get 100%

[@Clipski]

I usually agree with you, but i think you were very soft on Froste and the others. Blaming 100T for them picking a 10k a month house? That’s ridiculous, nade specifically said they wouldn’t even consider the other options that 100T found for them. They have a responsibility, not only as creators, but as individuals to conduct themselves without hand holding for their own sake. Also you said that 100T should have offered more guidance, but have no idea how much they actually did offer. Only the two parties involved know, so speaking like they didn’t do enough doesn’t make a lot of sense. I agree with the 85% being too much, but I see it more as risk mitigation on unproven talent. We don’t know if negotiations would be on the table down the line once the numbers change. Still enjoy the content, lud bud out.

[@tylerlynn9680]

You do not have full information. You do not get to make an opinion based on not full info without full info. (about the deal)

[@helck1153]

@@tylerlynn9680 Isn't that the video you are commenting under. Ludwig doesn't have the full info but he made a video in his opinion about the deal

[@ShadeCOD]

6:57 Don't throw me onto 100 Thieves pls LOL

[@VixeyTeh]

"Inspiration will find you, but it has to find you working" -Picasso.

[@Ivvyandvine]

There is no job out there that would hand hold to the level lud is pitching they would need frankly. Them helping find a house is wild let alone dictate the rent they could spend would be an overstep and liability. The 85% is insane but they are providing that compensation from brand deals in the form of a standard monthly pay. I assume once they recouped their salary for 100T they likely would have earned a higher percent on the deals moving forward. That’s at least my experience working at an agency. Also agents take ten percent managers may take more but even 20 is high. We had clients wanting us to take a 5% commission when we are selling their projects etc. so fully agree that 85% is predatory but this deal unlike an agent deal gave a salary monthly. For an agent you earn nothing unless your client earns they aren’t paying us and we don’t pay to keep them. Very different relationship on that front.

[@lonecentaur6719]

Except that almost every job either requires and/or provides training. Also any more standard job is more structured than streaming in that you are told what to do. It’s entirely reasonable to expect these content organizations to at least try to make creators under them stick to streaming schedules and suggest ideas for content. Also your comment on 100T maybe not taking the full 85% in the future shows you either didn’t watch the full video or didn’t pay attention.

[@Ivvyandvine]

@@lonecentaur6719 I was not commenting on what happened with it I am explaining how these deals that pay out a standard rate so people have consistent earnings in what is otherwise an unstable field such as content creation where your pay one month could be dope and the next be zero they eliminate that stress for creators by providing that base monthly pay. Typically once a company recoups that base pay they increase profit share, that’s my experience having negotiated deals in digital. Not saying it’s always the case but that is typically why you see this structure. I get your point that you normally get training and I don’t doubt 100t might be able to do more for them in producing content but we are talking about an industry that doesn’t come with training no one trains a KZbinr whose not on an org and at best an org can give best practices in their experience. I am not saying 100T is perfect but there is a lot of expectations here that sound like inexperience which is fair

[@Th3Sc4ndym4n]

I actually think this is my favourite youtube channel, I'm pretty excited to watch every time I see an upload. Lud memes his degree a lot but you can really see the blend of skill between journalism and entertainment in these videos.

[@es_fernyy]

Yes I agree! Lud uses those storytelling skills for sure

[@GigiRuffa]

People not realizing nadeshot needs a ROI and putting up the salaries and budgets for 4 nobodies would be a total loss without the 85% deal on sponsors until their content could start paying everybody accordingly..

[@byAshh]

it’s mind boggling no one recognizes this. He threw 200k+/y at these guys. He has to make money somewhere, especially given 100T has investors. They NEED to see a return somewhere.

[@trabajador_]

"didnt know where our next meal was coming from" sirrr....

[@TannersTrades]

“If you’re nothing without this suit, you don’t deserve to have it” -Tony Stark

[@ishanmadan8935]

I think this is the first time in a while where I completely disagree with lud. 100T had no obligation to help the mob find an apartment or to help them out in making financial decisions. Literally no company/employer does that. And for what little the mob individuals were working, how else would 100t recoup their investment than to make them sign those 85% deals? I know that lud acknowledges the kids were mostly at fault by the end of the video, but I genuinely don't think 100T are predatory at all in this scenario.

[@biggrocc19]

Plenty of companies will assist new employees with seeking housing if they need to relocate. Actually it's quite common.

[@ricardofernandez8485]

@@biggrocc19100T already gave the money and actually suggested places that are cheaper than what the mob decided on. At this point I think 100T did their job already.

[@ishanmadan8935]

@@biggrocc19 companies like Amazon, Microsoft, etc will give the employees a relocation bonus in hard cash, which they can spend on whatever they need. Or they will offer services to move their belongings to another state, or provide them with temporary accommodation till they get a permanent place. Even these big tech giants won't molly coddle you to signing a lease at the perfect apartment, at the most they will connect you to online forums, internal slack groups, etc where you can find roommates and other information related to housing. After that, you yourself are responsible to go and visit apartments and finalize the one you want. And from what I've heard from nadeshots side of the story, 100T did look for apartments for them, and they themselves decided to go with an expensive one.

[@tomasxfranco]

@@biggrocc19 those are perks, not standard, and they don't have a way to tell you what to do.

[@VibezAndres]

What you're also not taking into consideration is that they were not making any money for 100T at all, 100T had them on a salary and they were consistently losing money the whole time they had them under their name.

[@universal458]

yeah one of the mobs old managers said gfuel was offering to rent them a house and they would have shakers etc, should’ve took it over 100t

[@slidingarchitecture]

I don't really know the full story but from what I've heard sorry I don't agree on your take here. I'd argue 100Thieves had the right to take 100% of sponsorship money until they recouped salary. Then they can talk about percentages. Also as essentially their employer there is no way 100Thieves should have to give personal financial advice like what house to rent etc. The whole story just sounds like a bunch of creators, who were given an opportunity most people would dream of, made a bunch of bad decisions and did not work anywhere near hard enough.

[@MattEatsMochi]

then you clearly don't understand the industry.

[@slidingarchitecture]

@@MattEatsMochi No I don't as I'm not in it. Like I said I don't know the full story. However, I think if a company is offering a creator salaries in a voltalile industry. Then a creator chooses to sign with them. I dont think it is unfair that the company takes every effort to get their money back and some profit. I also think that company has no responsibility for your personal life choices beyond any perks that may be implemented with a salary such as sick pay and hopefully general decency. Ultimately this business model is very similar to sales. They're selling sponsorships. When I was in sales I got a salary and if I went over my quota I got bonuses. So essentially the company ensured they covered my salary, got some profit then if I performed well they fed some of that profit to me. As a creator if you want to sign into a salary based contract, to benefit from guranteed income, I really see little to no difference.

[@MattEatsMochi]

@@slidingarchitecture I'd like to say my original statement was a little dismissive, sorry. The reason you don't take such a big cut from a sponsored read is because they're usually damaging to a brand. It's seen as selling out and you can't just constantly do reads as a creator (unless you have a very special audience). As a result of the negative impact, and having such a large portion taken from the read, there is no reason for anyone to take a sponsored spot and especially not put creatine energy into it, even if they are paid a salary. A 20% cut is standard like Lud says for a reason. Additionally, 100T gets more than just the money from the Mob as creators under its umbrella. Ideally, them representing their org in a public facing position gives them earned media so that more people know about the orgs existence, the whole purpose of a signed influencer. I will say the rest of the stuff they dropped the ball on, and I hope they and a lot of other creators learned something from what happened. Hope this sheds some light on why the industry is designed to work this way.

[@slidingarchitecture]

@@MattEatsMochi Thank you for explaining. All of this makes logical sense. Interesting stuff and nice to have a proper discussion on youtube.

[@Jake48104]

I've seen bad takes but this is even worse then bad. I believe 100 Thieves weren't even the ones to get them those deals (I might be a little wrong on this), but Froste said that the organizations approached the mob and tried to partner with them, not 100 Thieves.

[@averagejosh6699]

Valkyrae, 100T co-owner: I see this as an absolute win!

[@NiteMDE]

I respect you for posting this, knowing it may cause tension with 100T connections

[@krisgomez3997]

He keeps harping on 100 Thieves for "allowing" them to get a $10K home. What company does someone's personal accounting and then tells them "you can't afford where you live so we won't let you live there." The individual needs to be the one to say "I can't afford this" not the org. Definitely agree that the 85% is predatory though.

[@palinanavitskaya6133]

I don't think Ludwig meant they should have stopped the Mob on a company level, but on a personal one. Telling them something to the effect of "hey, that's a really bad idea, please don't do that".

[@markkelso871]

There is no chance whatsoever 100t at that point in their infancy could have justified signing 4 creators of that size without at least the chance to make a little bit of it back. I actually think this deal was overly fair to them... if anything depending on contract language you could argue 100t could sue members of the mob for inactivity. The contract - rent was NOT half their money. They very clearly made much more than the 60k a year or whatever it was based on twitch revenue/youtube/sponsorships/other opportunities only presented to them after joining 100t. I'm guessing they made north of 100k a year for those 2 years. You simply CANNOT give 80% of a 200k brand deal to creators of this size for many reasons. It would be like someone winning the lottery and then being asked to go back to work as a janitor. Not going to happen. As soon as they cashed a check for 40K (70% of their entire contract per year from one deal) how can you possibly ask them to put in hours for normal streams? The fact that they didn't actually stick to the 85% is a massive W for them and makes 100t look great. There is no scenario where if this worked how 100t hoped it would work, that during a renegotiation process in which the Mob grew 3x their size instead of just floundering that this percentage wouldn't have dropped massively and their numbers increased. This was an absolute flier taken by Nadeshot that was OVERLY fair to the group. The fact that so many people have made videos denying this is literally asinine to me. They simply do not have the numbers to demand a 200k deal. Literally makes no sense. Why should they get 40k each? Because it's "standard"? Hell no it isn't standard, no company in their right mind would agree to that deal. The fact that fireball even did it at all considering the Mob was the creators 100t used probably pissed them off. No way do they get the proper ROI to make that worthwhile. "Froste knew the guy from fireball..." who cares I know guys who are mega millionaires that doesn't mean at any point they're going to hire me to work for them for 500k a year with no skills in the area just because I know them. The fireball guy woulda probably thrown them a bone and given them like a 2-3k deal (still huge for them at their size) but instead they each got $30k because of the 100t connect. This is all very simple, not predatory at all (in fact I now think nadeshot is a literal saint) and I absolutely hate how little research people do into this and just insert their own "knowledge" of brand deals into it.

[@Matt-jy3fe]

getting 15% of a brand deal you wouldn't of had in the first place is definitely better than getting 0%, especially when you get to keep 100% of your own streaming revenue... then chose not to stream. also they got so much value with signing with 100T when they get the opportunity to make content with other creators in the org like nadeshot courage brookeab and rae, an opportunity many creators wont get the chance to do.

[@vortexgaming6775]

Nah dude that's not how it works it's like saying I will pay for your college, rent & give you pocket money but once you get a job you pay me 85% of your salary.

[@vortexgaming6775]

Oh but i am only talking about % cut here, froste didn't worked hard so i guess talking 85% from a lazy bum is fine.

[@Commaarcom]

@@vortexgaming6775 only except it's not because they only took 85% of all sponsorship money and left all other sources of revenue untouched. These guys were just idiots who had no idea how to budget, barely worked and then complained when it didn't work out.

[@feenix6299]

I'm so glad we're back to the dark mode twitter thumbnails, thanks lud.

[@roysmith146]

the fact that the name is "thieves" makes this 3x better

[@teddyshinobi]

Honestly, the one thing I wanted to know throughout this entire drama is this. Who the hell is kittyhouseknife and has anyone been able to independently verify their claims? It's been driving me nuts cuz I think anyone can claim anything with Twitter drama.

[@ashjones9059]

@ludwig the only part you didn’t take into account here is that management and agency company might take up to 30% of a deal to recoup cost to get the deal but they don’t pay a salary 100T had to pay for the staff to get the contract and the salary and give how small the views taking 35% being only 15% more than an agent but with a salary sounds more than fair

[@s0nar]

I was pretty “in” with the cod community, I was mutual friends with classify. That guy got all of his fame from stealing tweets, and literally used to brag about it. None of those guys are actual creators/memers/whatever aside from avalanche. I can assure everyone in this comment section that this was at the hands of the mob. Think about people that take an opportunity like that to the fullest. They usually end up surpassing the organization and going independent anyway. Observe all of 100T content creation team. Probably at least 80% of their creators do not need 100T at all to be successful.

[@WBsteve]

Dam, 100Thieves out here trying to be the new machinima with that 85%.

[@BlueePluto]

Dude had champagne tastes on a wine budget.

[@evankeen]

Ludwig 2500 a month is not 60k a year....

[@aIissster]

so true

[@noodleman]

i know like what bruhhh 🤣😂☠📉

[@shazbaz5015]

I disagree with this take, you are comparing this deal with an agency finding brand deals. This is not the same situation at ALL, 100T was paying their salary, and getting millions of eyes on them. There is no way 100T would ever make anywhere near a profit if they only took 20%. After all they are a buisness not a charity The streamers still kept all their income from youtube and streaming

[@MuttonErase]

And on top of that they hardly streamed. Heck even nadeshot who genuinely has other shit to do and take care of other than streaming put up more hours in a month than froste did in three

[@MelonWaterMelon777]

I came from Charlie's video and he is being the change. His agency takes on average 10-15% and he is trying to make that the industry standard

[@misteryouz]

@@MelonWaterMelon777 Dude, Charlie and The Mob are vastly different in terms of viewership and pull. it's not gonna be the standard at all. Companies aren't charities.

[@MelonWaterMelon777]

@@misteryouz I understand but I think you are misunderstanding me here. Have you watched Charlie's vid? He talked about his agency that works with other content creators not just himself. I get that The Mob failed cause they didn't put in the work and some dummy decision making but 85% is not a fair number.

[@tokarigato3228]

Charlie's group is an agency. Not an org. They do not pay salaries and allowances. The 85% is where the org is getting their ROI. The mob gets to keep their content income 100%. Do not compare apples to oranges. I watched Charlie's vid and it's just wrong. If you want better info, i suggest watch Devin Nash.

[@bradybimson9106]

I understand you are looking at this from a creator point of view, but people aren't considering the business side because it's 100 Thieves and so the big corporation should be able to afford it. But look at it objectively. You said it yourself, you are paying these kids to live in a house together and hoping it works out and they get big, but they have to put in the work. That risk is baked into the 85% revenue off of deals. If he streamed 40 hours a month and is being paid 60k, 100 Thieves was essentially paying him $125 an hour. They were not making any money off of that exposure to 500 viewers, so to make it make any business sense it has to be taken from somewhere else, hence the 85%. Also what org guided you? Or nadeshot? Or Mizkif? Or Asmon? Or XQC? if you need an org to hold your hand then you aren't cut out for the business regardless of your age. At the end of the day it's a learning experience in how to negotiate, how to sign contracts, and how to make it work as an adult and that's all it is.

[@EVAKOI]

Also Ludvig back in the day trying to join 100T kekw

[@SubparLoki]

Ludwig just gave us all those paid yt and twitch success courses for free lol

[@TheJjcczz]

100T needs to make something back otherwise they’re literally throwing money away. 65-85% of brand deals is fair when you’re getting paid a salary plus at least 15% of a major brand deal and that doesn’t even take into account donations and subs. Deal seems pretty fair to me

[@artfulsplash3135]

Ludwig’s big point against 100T was how they put the mob in a 10k house and how this set them up for failure. What he didn’t mention was how on stream, Nadeshot mentioned how the mob was given a choice on where to live, and they chose the most expensive option, which was that 10k house. I wish Ludwig went into this as I think it is a very important part of info regarding this mogul mail

[@VerdugoMoment]

Yeah but his point was why did nadeshot let that go through. Like he still gets to make the final call and if he had any sense he would've told them it wouldn't work.

[@Eclipse-lw4vf]

never even heard of froste but ive heard of others but the fact that people have cited how froste only streamed like 40 hours a month is absolutely wild. he technically "works" one day a month

[@jh-ys5zw]

40 hour work day?

[@Eclipse-lw4vf]

@@jh-ys5zw idk whaty my brain was on that day, im sure in my head i typed something different and meant week or something and my brain gave up and i didnt check it agian lol

[@TheSpatula_]

Ludwin would never get into a predatory contract with an org

[@scalawag_23]

"Luck comes when hard work meets opportunity." - Hecz