The Problem with Dragons in Dungeons and Dragons

Dragons are literally in the title of Dungeons and Dragons, but do dragons really deserve that spot in DnD? Let's take a look in this episode of D&D with a twist!
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Video Editing by the amazing Bia: / bnazf
Writing, Illustration, and Narration by me: / antodemico
Additional sketches by the amazing Fey: / feymilde

[@pointyhatstudios]

Did you think I will never make a dragon video? Guess again 😎 Also I hope y'all like warden dragons it was a lot of effort I am very tired

[@KaleNordyke]

I personally like dragons, but I can understand why you believe that.

[@camilolosada2895]

Ahhh man, you actually made dragons interesting!!! Now the only problem I have is that there isn't more of them!!!!¡

[@ryanbirchley6613]

Really was like, a people horde is just a green dragon horde, but then you twisted it up nicely by having the types of people influence the dragon and its brilliant, so thanks! 🎉

[@TheStartrek99]

Shouldn't the warden dragons have scaling levels of power, similar to age categories for the base dragons in the game, but based on hoard size? Also, I'm absolutely going to steal this concept and make it a template that you can apply to regular dragons in my Pathfinder game.

[@lordofmcflies8982]

You opened Pandora's box, pointy... now we're gonna start begging you to make a show for each warden dragon class, just like the liches!!! And you're right; dragons were pretty bland and kinda boring (guess that's what homebrews are for), and you just made them fun again! The only problem now is that we only have ONE, but I understand if you just want to drop it after making this video since you don't care for dragons.

[@atakhan25]

Now we just need "The Problem with Dungeons in Dragons and Dungeons" and then we're golden.

[@deffdefying4803]

The Problem with And in Dungeons and Dragons

[@stachu5049]

​@@deffdefying4803 The problem with " " in "Dungeons and Dragons"

[@wayward5219]

The problem with the space between Dungeons and & anyone?

[@muriloporcellisdemoura5008]

The problem with problem in "the problem with (...) in Dungeons and Dragons"

[@beanboi7952]

I thought we already got a dungeon idea from PH (Pointy Hat, not Player's Handbook)

[@RabblesTheBinx]

Pointy Hat: "You really can't center an adventure around a dragon." J. R. R. Tolkien: **rolling over in his grave**

[@kedros45]

he did it first and nobody beat him ever since

[@firelordeliteast6750]

I mean, the adventure was centered more around the mountain than the dragon. Then again, one could also argue that Bilbo himself was the focus.

[@phantom3969]

@@firelordeliteast6750bilbo was the focus of the plot because he was the protagonist of the story the adventure itself was about reclaiming the dwarf's ancestral home, which was destroyed and occupied by a dragon

[@digitaljanus]

The dragon dies 2/3 of the way through the book and the story isn't close to being over!

[@insanehiker5587]

The same thing was true for the Wicked Witch of the West in "The Wizard of Oz"... the original book not the movie.

[@carloblanch3893]

Gotta say I love your Warden Dragons... but I have also loved *every other dragon I have ever seen*

[@ManiaeTheArchivist]

Agreed and some may not like what I say but the magus dragon sounds a lot like a gold dragon mixed with a blue dragon

[@AJustJonny]

As a general concept, it's kinda how Shadowrun dragons work, other than reproduction via mortals. Dragons in Shadowrun basically operate conspiracies of conspiracies. Most Yakuza clans answer to a specific dragon, and most Triad families answer to another, so the international war between the two networks of gangs are a chess game between two dragons. Obviously those are two of the most powerful dragons in the setting, but even ordinary dragons usually operate by manipulating a pawn, who's manipulating a pawn, who's manipulating the player characters.

[@dowfreak7]

Dunno, sounds like the vampire problem to me. Meaning that they're just "oh, no, these incredibly powerful creatures live among us and heavily influence the people they inhabit and make them their underlings". Which is just boring. What's the point in that thing being mythical at all? That kind of thing works with ANY "human-level intelligence" being you can think of. It's not like you need big flappy wings to teach someone how to swing a wand. And it also robs them off a lot of their raw power and unfathomable nature. A dragon is almost like a natural disaster. It's nature power manifest and smart enough to choose their battles. Reduce that nature power to "I like knights" and I'm gonna yawn my head off at the lamo lizard. Imprison that apparently immensely powerful thing in a generic town where they won't have used their power at all, especially since they're so connected to people that they CAN'T and what is even left? At that point just take whatever human character would be in that position and give them the ability to transform into a big monster and you achieve literally the same thing. What he seems to hate about dragons is that they're generic and ubiquitous. What's more generic in human society than a person? What makes a dragon special, if that dragon stops what made them special and only does human activities? Also and this is the last one: You can literally scrap the entire hoarding dragon concept and just give any dragon one underling who organizes all that conspiracy/organization stuff and you'd get the same result with already existing dragons. Only thing you're missing is the essence-ritual and you can just replace that with the generic "I'll give you my dragon egg to hatch and look after" kinda story.

[@andrewmiller2464]

I have spent so much of my time playing 3.5 games set in the Forgotten Realms that when you said "most people don't play dragons as spellcasters," my head spun. Even now, playing 5e, I had always assumed their magic nature was such a core facet of their identity that I never noticed that the monster manual regulated it to a tiny variant blurb.

[@pixality7902]

Part of it is 5e nerfed what made them strong. Though their spellcasting was behind, they could stack buffs in 3.5. 5e changed how spells worked and dissuades planning ahead. When I was concerned about dragons I had to change my prepared spell list significantly to take things that would kill their buffs and otherwise make them more vulnerable. I miss d&d having more depth. I like some things from 5e like advantage/disadvantage but the mechanics make monsters and characters less interesting. Especially once you've played everything.

[@belzyk3dg122]

Right lol. I played 3.5 so much that every dragon I use is a 17th level cleric or sorcerer lmao. Hell what do you do when a dragon rolls up and starts slinging wish at no ill effect to theirself. Or controlling weather or other high level spells Not to mention being insanely intelligent you can use dragons for anything. I mean yeah some are dumber than others but all are geniuses.

[@shadedergu9921]

@@belzyk3dg122 I run some Dragons with Bard lists in 5e Since some Dragons follow the belief of the Song of Creation; nothing really bars them from using the Bard List, and getting some magical secrets (For Contingency and the like)

[@GoldenArbiter01]

@@belzyk3dg122 Didn't white dragons have int 3? I very, very vaguely recall that there was one specific chromatic dragon that was literally animal intelligence, lol

[@ODXT]

I was also confused at that comment. Like, the one thing that all my players, who are new to D&D, knew about dragons is that dragons ARE magic and are powerful spellcasters.

[@SnickeringBadger]

The problem with dragons in D&D is that there aren't more of them in D&D. I love dragons. I want to hug a dragon's tail.

[@dolphinwarlord6908]

Yea there so cool, don't like red dragons, boom purple dragons with target plasma. They live in caves so boom blinding, BOOM so cool

[@animationdude9]

Valid

[@themountaintoppsychos916]

Honestly, I'm one of those people who thinks dragons are cool lol

[@ZmeiTheDarkdragon]

There are lots in older editions if you want the 5e versions dungeon dad has a few hundred

[@the.starman]

Yeah, you might want to check out Bad Dragons, haha

[@starhalv2427]

Imagine working for years to join a warden dragon's hoard, only to learn you're not up to Los Pollos Hermanos standards.

[@Lordmewtwo151]

The brother chickens?🤔

[@donspafford414]

@@Lordmewtwo151Breaking Bad reference.

[@kanebekkattla3963]

I'm sorry to say this, but you are simply bad product.

[@obiwankenobi9439]

What is a Dragon but a Chicken persevering?

[@victorvaldez8869]

I can imagine a character who jointed the University run by a Magus Dragon trying to HIDE some facet of themselves because they wouldn't be considered a desirable choice because of it. Specifically a Sorcerer/Wizard cross class. Frasdolk was born into the slums of the city they live in, their Father abandoned them and their mother shortly after her pregnancy became apparent. She supported Frasdolk's child hood was very short as his mother provided as best she could as a housekeeper but when he turned 13 Frasdolk had to also find work too. While out searching for a job in the best clothes he could get his hands on his Sorcerous spark manifested itself when he had to defend himself from some local thugs looking for an easy mark as he was looking FAR richer than usual. By instinct fire shot from his fingers, & was enough to send the would be muggers away in pain clutching what remained of their clothes & dignity. With that Frasdolk decided where to try to find employment next, the Magical University as a janitor/housekeeper. He worked diligently & also used his break time & lunches to study magic so he could figure out what he was doing & how to better control what he did. Slowly he was becoming a combination Wizard/Sorcerer hiding in a University where any Sorcerers were at the very least persecuted & some rumored actively hunted, all the while trying to figure out how to control & understand the forces he was connected to while hiding those same powers. The question remains, who or rather WHAT was his Father & where was he now. (Perhaps the BBEG at the end of the campaign?)

[@SergeiMosin]

Personally, the only dragon character I use in games is a brass dragon bartender in a town. He routinely changes between forms, only able to actually eat while in his lizard form, but switching to human form to tend bar and cater to his insatiable need for gossip, which he hoardes. He's a pretty bit character, but he's useful as a way to add a bit of unique flavor to a town

[@SusCalvin]

They threw in Balder like that in City-state of the invincible overlord. Just hanging out in disguise at a shop. In Shadowrun, dragons have a web presence. Some larger and more obvious than others.

[@levimiller909]

Oooooo thank you for the inspiration!

[@SergeiMosin]

@@levimiller909 I generally run it as the entire town knows he's a dragon, but they like having him around, and treat him as a valued member of society and a friend. That said, there's a really fun variation on that where his true form is a secret and the party can sniff it out if they want, and either make a powerful enemy by trying to expose him, or earn a fairly powerful magic item by promising to keep his secret.

[@DISTurbedwaffle918]

Cleric Dragons be like: *DRAGON POPE*

[@xaimaralexisii9095]

DRAGON POPE

[@FunnyFany]

I've always loved the idea of dragons hoarding friends. "These people are my treasure and if you mess with them you mess with me." It's about commitment. It's about loyalty. It's about toxic codependence.

[@hermeticbear]

aka steel dragons (they are a thing)

[@whilenya4714]

​​​@@hermeticbear I also instantly thought of Steel Dragons! This is totally their domain. I mean, they have Age Links, which are often old friends whose memories they can share so they'll have something to go off when they start their cycle of resurrection anew. As well as a Soulbond (just the one in a lifetime) which can be defined as the one friend who is a platonic soulmate that they'll never ever forget along their many lives. And I think that's beautiful.

[@keiroty7187]

It would be nice about if the dragon with soucers and warlocks

[@TheLordofMetroids]

I have a green Dragon in my world who hordes famous pieces of history. She collects famous people, artifacts, legendary items, champions of gods and so on and so on. She captures military units and forces them into arenas where they can't die. Inside they fight in famous battles in history. She naturally becomes an amazing quest giver as she gives quests like: "hay you want to steal the Iron Throne... no no, not like become king, I mean the actual throne." She also is more than willing to pawn off magic items to the party, but be careful not to grow too famous, otherwise she might want YOU in the collection. So basically, she's the evilest version of what you said. Edit: and I just got to "the twist." Ah.

[@HarPaelTheMessenger]

​@@TheLordofMetroids Female Trazyn the Infinite? (He's from Warhammer 40k and does much the same)

[@gabrielsalesmartins]

"other than destruction, they can't do anything else" Lair effects: "am I a joke to you?"

[@sayerglasgow115]

Honestly that claim just seems so wild to me, there's a huge amount Dragons can do besides just destruction. Like, I like the warden dragon concept but to say that every other dragon is just a big godzilla monster is just wrong. Hell it's not even fair to Godzilla to say all he is is a big monster that causes destruction. I feel like being unable to see any interesting quest or plot hooks within the descriptions of the behavior and abilities of the various dragon types in the base game seems like a failure of creativity more than anything.

[@francisbacon5897]

⁠@@sayerglasgow115Yeah, like how a copper dragon might have the party go on a session long quest for a artifact only to have had said artifact for the entire time. Or you could have an entire campaign about dealing with a thieves guild that infiltrated multiple cities and finding out that the leader of said guild is an ancient Green/Blue dragon.

[@kedros45]

@@francisbacon5897 But neither of those quest lines are particular resonating with a dragon. Nearly any chaotic something creature could be a placeholder for both quests. And that's the point. it might be more fun with a dragon, but it wouldn't be quite less fun if it were a beholder or a deva or a mind flayer or a rakshasha..

[@francisbacon5897]

@@kedros45 Yes. There are a lot of things that could take up those spot, but you can add your own flavor on how they each individually run it. For instance, Blue Dragons are actually quite reasonable bosses and will pay you for your work. Maybe you could contrast that with the rebels being a lot less reasonable and the party has to chose between the lesser of two evils. Or maybe the party could kill the Green Dragon. Then they find out the ones employing them was a coven of hags that seek to use its remains for a very powerful and evil spell.

[@aterribleperson9119]

@@sayerglasgow115 He rags on dragons for not having any potential, then his solution is something that could have easily been done with any normal dragon, to the point where I'm pretty sure there are multiple examples of similar concepts in DnD books. Dragons have so many abilities, and so much detail written about their personalities, there are so many things you could come up with, and if you can't see a way for them to be anything but a big stat block to punch because the Monster Manual doesn't explicitly state its goals... I really to say this about Pointy Hat of all people, because I love his videos, and he's come up with some great stuff, but that's a skill issue.

[@TheDogPenguin]

This was an incredibly poor take on D&D dragons. See: "Blue dragons covet valuable and talented creatures whose service reinforces their sense of superiority. Bards, sages, artists, wizards, and assassins can become valuable agents for a blue dragon, which rewards loyal service handsomely." "A wily and subtle creature, a green dragon bends other creatures to its will by assessing and playing off their deepest desires. Any creature foolish enough to attempt to subdue a green dragon eventually realizes that the creature is only pretending to serve while it assesses its would-be master." "A green dragon’s favored treasures are the sentient creatures it bends to its will, including significant figures such as popular heroes, well-known sages, and renowned bards." "Bronze dragons love to watch ships traveling up and down the coastlines near their lairs, sometimes taking the forms of dolphins or seagulls to inspect those ships and their crews more closely. A daring bronze dragon might slip aboard a ship in the guise of a bird or rat, inspecting the hold for treasure. If the dragon finds a worthy addition to its hoard, it barters with the ship’s captain for the item." "Copper dragons are particularly fond of bards. A dragon might carve out part of its lair as a temporary abode for a bard willing to regale it with stories, riddles, and music. To a copper dragon, such companionship is a treasure to be coveted." "A brass dragon engages in conversations with thousands of creatures throughout its long life, accumulating useful information which it will gladly share for gifts of treasure. If an intelligent creature tries to leave a brass dragon’s presence without engaging in conversation, the dragon follows it." "A faerie dragon has a sharp mind, a fondness for treasure and good company, and a puckish sense of humor. Travelers can play to a faerie dragon’s draconic nature by offering it “treasure” in the form of sweets, baked goods, and baubles in exchange for information or safe passage through its territory." I didn't even have to look outside the basic Monster Manual. If you wanted to just critique their stat blocks that would have been a great way to go (they can leave a lot to be desired) but to say they have no use in storytelling outside BiGmOnStEr! just shows you didn't research this at all. It took me less than five literal minutes to find and copy/paste those over here.

[@11stgeorge11]

I have to say, normally, even when I don't fully agree, I respect the process and research that went into these videos. One of the reasons I feel this way is that PH always breaks down what makes the thing the thing according to D&D lore. I can't help but feel like PH missed the mark on this one. Maybe it's because he hates dragons, but I feel like this video fails to grasp dragons of D&D as creatures born of the primordial magic of the planes. Also, making a dragon that collects people ignores Steel dragons altogether (older editions, I know). I still love this channel. I'll still hold my breath until each new video comes out. But, as a lover of dragons who has spent a lot of time reading the cannon lore, I felt let down. And I feel like it really came down to bias.

[@tiph3802]

In his Sorcerer dragon video, he admits he hasn't read Fizban's which addresses nearly every complaint he has, so unfortunately yeah. Definitely didn't do his due diligence on this one.

[@Bezaliel13]

I know this is an old comment, but YEAH! Going by proto-dragon theory, PH complained about the ignidraco subgenus, ignored the lesser dragons, and ripped off Dark Sun!

[@MayBeSomething]

Congrats, Pointy Hat! By saying that Magus Dragons can make universities, and those universities can develop rivalries with each other, you just made Strixhaven!

[@ericsmith3808]

Strixhaven but better

[@zuulmeister8409]

A better Strixhaven!!!

[@yournewmessiah3582]

It's Goldenrod's Fantasy High

[@victorvaldez8869]

ALMOST. He made a whole University SYSTEM of competing Strixhavens. I can also imagine a Bardic Horde Dragon being the ultimate party school too.

[@XaviusNight]

@@victorvaldez8869 "We can dance if you want to, we can leave your friends behind..."

[@joseda3rd354]

It’s funny because the concept of the “warden dragons” is just one of the ways I already use dragons in my worlds anyways

[@Rantalanta]

Same.

[@ragnarrockvonkkm7861]

Same.

[@GangurEXE]

To be fair base dnd dragons already hoard people with most notable examples of that being green dragons

[@Scarletraven87]

he really invented nothing special. It all depends on how you structure the internal struggle between their goals, their personal desires, and their moral code. Yes, even for CE Red Dragons. For example, in Eberron all dragons are "warden" by default, because they all gain a goal (the draconic prophecy) that may conflict with their personal desires, or moral code.

[@Username-cs1bi]

Maybe he just need to realize silver dragon is a thing.

[@9-bitfox]

I Highly recommend "Dungeon Dad" KZbin videos on Canon Dragons. Since he gives ALLOT of ideas on The different Dragons, their hordes and Story Plot Hooks. Honestly Love his Idea of a Dragon that Captains a Pirate ship and rides/Swims underneath his ship.

[@levimiller909]

THIS! And Riches and liches for real dragon lore. He goes into incredible detail on all his vids.

[@doppelhelixes]

those dreagons with a twist sound just like a cult with extra steps

[@Bezaliel13]

Honestly, PH just ripped off Dark Sun.

[@shaunweiss8949]

So you made green dragons... but more diverse. Neat

[@Damandra]

And maybe mix in Silver to the Green ?

[@thornelson1411]

@@Damandra a mix of silver, green, and a tinge of brass

[@VladmirKaishun]

I find that most issues people have with dragons comes from DM's not knowing how to run them. Each color and variant does have a huge amount of distinguishable characteristics but they end up getting run the same way over and over. My personal dragons have waaaay more going on behind the scenes than my players think and i cant wait to reveal their secrets. However, i LOVE this new take and have added the magus to my statblock list. This channel never ceases to impress me. Superb job.

[@robinwilliams9970]

100% some DMs need to read the smaug chapters of the hobbit and try to not play every dragon as if it is a white dragon. A blue dragon is going to make you fight your way up its heirarchy first or try to recruit you if your potentially evil, a green dragon tries to trap trick and decieve you. A black dragon ambushes you over and over, never sticking around to take damage. White dragons hunts you, attacking when you rest or encounter difficult terrain. A red dragon might lure you into a false lair and then leave you there while he kidnaps your family and burns down your farm/ town Or it just sits on a pile of gold waiting to breath fire on passers-by....

[@broEye1]

Exactly. Each color of dragon has unique characteristics going far beyond just HP and spell/breath list. Some are brilliant, others remarkably stupid. Some are obsessed with the law, even to the point that they will pass judgment in an instant and never accept any extenuating circumstances or even possibility of mistake, while others care solely about whether things end up good or bad for themselves or others. Some do hide themselves away, while others seek to interact with or control people. Some are hard-set on their alignments, while others are known to be susceptible to shifts. There's an entire game played by dragons where they gather humans to act as their "pieces" and perform all kinds of plots and quests and projects over centuries. If a DM's unable to make a dragon anything more than "big, strong lizard with strong hits and breath that does X", then that's a problem with the DM and chances are they'll be just as bad with any kind of villain or monster they choose.

[@Snowie7826]

Yeah, a lot of this did just feel like a failure of imagination on his part 😅 Especially considering that two of the "better" dragons he created were just bronze dragons and silver dragons. They had basically the exact same MO, just with some nice lore behind it.

[@tyrrollins]

If DMs ran dragons the way they should be people would cry because 95% of encounters with them either should end in TPK or the party leaving at a severe disadvantage even when dealing with good dragons. They are supposed to be the hardest thing to deal with in dnd. And frankly its really hard to run something that is supposed to be far more intelligent than the person running it.

[@VladmirKaishun]

I ended up watching a ton of lore videos awhile back by Mr. Rhex and his dragon ones were my absolute favorites. It easily brought my DMing game up at least 2 tiers. He goes into their ecology, combat strategies, personalities, hordes, and even mating strategies. If anyone has difficulty running dragons, i highly recommend his "What they dont tell you in the monster manual" series. EASILY will buff your games to a new level.

[@300SonsofOdin]

Sorry to spoil your fun, Pointy. But for a magical powerful sentient Hat you know quite little about dragons. What you described with your warden dragon, is basically a Silver Dragon. Silvers are known in the Toril setting to be extremely social (only toped off by Brass Dragons) and live in cities, caring for the inhabitants of said city and being one of the most badass dragon types there is, second in power only to Golds and Reds. Except for their procreation. I recomend you look up some of their lore and known characters in Dungeons and Dragons (Toril/Faerûn). They basically do just what you described.

[@IgorSky]

Pointy Hat: "We are inventing better dragons. Those that horde humans." Green dragons: Are we a joke to you, buddy?

[@helldrake77777]

While I adore the creation you've provided, I feel it is necessary to point out that there is plenty of dragons in DND that actually "fix" a lot of the "problems" you have with dragons and utilize a lot of what the Warden Dragons have, including the hoarding of people. More Mr. Rhexx and Dungeon Dad videos would be my recommendation

[@TW_NOXIA]

I was thinking the same, I watched alot a MrRhexx's what they don't tell you about [blank]. There are a lot a dragons with cool lore and that aren't just meaty kobolts with a breathweapon.

[@sethketa]

@@TW_NOXIA The problem is a lot of that lore was thrown out by WotC, so it is no longer relevant with current editions. Note that he isn't talking about your homebrew dragons, or any third party supplements. Just what WotC treats as canonical in their current edition. Going back to previous editions is outside of the scope of what he's talking about, and also outright contradicts a lot of what exists currently because WotC is inconsistent as heck with their writing.

[@VelociraptorsOfSkyrim]

​@@sethketaThe Problem with how Pointy Hat is addressing here is that he's blatantly ignoring things _in_ 5e that directly contradict his issues. For example, the entire concept behind Warden Dragons, having _people_ as their horde, not only can any dragon do already, but some (Brass, Silver, and Green Dragons) already canonically do. His Arcane Dragons he mentioned in this video? Literally just Strixhaven.

[@godfreydrawsart]

This is one of the few times where I see that Pointy Hat just doesn’t get dragons in general, and the way he “fixes” them is the way most players already use dragons.

[@rockidayo]

really tho, so many times in the video he mentioned things he wish dragons had or such and every time I couldn't avoid thinking to myself "but that's already how it goes ??"

[@gagglegames]

I was under the impression Silver Dragons hoarded people anyway...

[@godfreydrawsart]

Kinda? My understanding is that they'll protect villages/towns/cities near them, but won't go out of their way to help without being asked. They mostly horde other silver dragons, as they form colonies.@@gagglegames

[@Reaper8290]

Exactly. I already have two dragons I use very similarly to how he 'fixed' them. A green who hoards people in the vein of building a wide network of spies, nobles, and others who can help it gain a wield political power. And a red who runs a magic academy in order to collect and hoard as much knowledge and students with magical talent as she can get.

[@Callyn9x]

The lore of silver dragons in AD&D 2nd Ed was that silvers actually lived among mortals, because yes, the people and place they lived was considered to be part of their hoard. Sure, they still had the classic out of the way in the peaks of mountains type lair to stash the more traditional part of their hoard, with many magical protection and alarm spells in place, but they loved being social with mortals, and spend most of their time living in a city or village in their polymorphed form to blend in to have that social interaction their craved

[@thornelson1411]

Fizban's Treasury of Dragons literally helps a DM make dragons more interesting and interactable. There was also many dragon based lore books like a small one I own which is called "A Practical Guide to Dragons" which also gives a person a quick summaries of personalities, anatomies, and many other useful tips about the Metallic and Chromatic Dragons. It does not make sense to change dragons in such a way. Also making them more animal like just removes what makes them dragons. Also to counter your spellcaster point the MM literally says you can change out the spells available to suit your needs. The older the dragon the more powerful the spells. All it takes is a bit of research as a DM to find inspiration to run D&D dragons as they are with their in depth and intricate personas.

[@odessawild7798]

One of my favorite dragons i have ever seen is basically your stereotypical dragon, but it hoarded knowledge, snd held the ability to literally wield the knowledge as weapons, books orbiting it and firing off spells and effects

[@rubyseverinwhitworth9066]

As Dungeon Dad taught us Purple dragons breath plasma, yellow breath salt and orange breath pure sodium (it explodes when it encounters air and water)

[@skeepodoop5197]

OG Purple Dragons breathe Plasma, and are basically crime families made up of dragons. More recent purple dragons are boring. Thus OG purple dragons are based.

[@potentpotassium5776]

@@skeepodoop5197 gotta love crime family dragons

[@casualsleepingdragon8501]

I never liked the color þeory for chromatics

[@ssfbob456]

I used his version of the lunar dragon an it absolutely terrified my party

[@ThefifthBishopofGord]

And that Gray dragons don’t have a breath weapon. (it is really a choice of the DM but with their habits of having trophies the petrifying breath weapon makes sense for them to develop this habit) Gray Dragons are the closet you get to a purely stat block monster with the dragons. They will want to hunt you or the part by the time you get powerful enough to fight a dragon by yourself or with allies. So you have basic canonical explanation on why this dragon is fighting them or why an area with good environment for specific dragons is barren of dragons.

[@georgeuferov1497]

It's funny how Magus Dragons hate Sorcerers, when all dragons are kind of Sorcerers by nature

[@uzunaruMelonness]

"Yes, ironic. Even the ritual is Sorcery by nature." Set chuckles.

[@theawkwardpotato1973]

Sometimes, they're even the cause of sorcerers' power. :)

[@Strix182]

Do not, under any circumstances, say this to a Magus Dragon. They are well aware of their own hypocrisy, and don't take kindly to being reminded.

[@truekurayami]

The distaste towards sorcerer would be more on the nature of "natural talent" vs "hard work". A Sorcerer wishing to understand the weave through the methods of a Wizard, Artificer, or Lore Bard would probably be more welcomed but still hold a lower standing or held to higher standards because of the "Natural Talent" for magic.

[@shadowcentaur]

In a campaign I DMd about 15 years ago I ran a dragon that was like a warden dragon who hoarded artists. His hoard was basically an art museum with a LOT of sculpture of himself in it

[@glacialrelic7878]

Having skipped over the lair actions of dragons in general and skipping over the abilities listed to be used as customization options for dragons(fizbans), and also having skipped over the hoard based loot from dragons(fizbans) before going into your warden dragons who are based around their hoards(people) and also that you didn't change anything about the warden dragon if the creature was to be fought in comparison to any other dragon or spellcasting-dragon(Niv-Mizzet), altogether gives me some weird vibes about this video bruh

[@matiasnl]

Lair actions for dragons don't add any flavor other than emphasizing that they are isolationist and just big pokemon elementals, which was the problem pointy hat had with dragons in the first place.

[@VelociraptorsOfSkyrim]

​@@matiasnl The issue I'm seeing is less about the Design of the monster itself, but generally how they're used. His "Warden dragons" already exist in D&D, using the already existing statblocks. The Arcane Dragons? Strixhaven is literally this, but with a Red, Green, White and Crystal Dragon at the head of each collage. Paladin/Knight Dragons? Literally any Metallic Dragon Pointy Hat literally made a custom dragon..... that could literally have any of the preexisting Dragons fill in the same role and nothing would change.

[@chrisskrzypczak2777]

​@@VelociraptorsOfSkyrim I disagree. His creation here focuses on the /magic/ aspect of the dragons. Which historically speaking, especially in current 5e, is literally just a small blurb in their stat blocks. Gem Dragons are a little better about this. Overall though, it's mostly just tacked on. What PH has suggested here is just basically Strixhaven from MtG, but I think that just shows how much more compelling this concept is over the half-baked 'Good stuff' monsters we have currently

[@VelociraptorsOfSkyrim]

@@chrisskrzypczak2777 His creation here literally adds nothing to the game. Strixhaven is already in 5e, and the Monster Manuel as it stands tells you how to run Dragons _as_ Spellcasters. Every aspect of the dragon in question he created is something that can already be done in 5e, both mechanically and lore-wise. Once again, it's an issue of _how_ they're used instead of a design. Wanna have a dragon that's a spellcaster and Archmage of a college? The Monster Manuel tells you exactly how to do the former, with the latter being purely a DM flavor thing.

[@reillycurran8508]

Pointy Hat: "Nobody ever runs magical dragons!" Raishan the Diseased Deceiver: "BOY I WAS WHICH LICHIN' THIS MOTHAFUCKA UP BEFO YOU EVER STARTED THROWIN' DICE!"

[@uzunaruMelonness]

"Sadly, that was one of his better dialogues. But, agreed. Raishan is correct," Set bellowed from his human form.

[@morotr_co]

I have never run a dragon that didn’t use magic. It’s like running a vampire that doesn’t use magic. Sure, by rules you can, but why would anyone gimp such iconic monsters by taking away their abilities? And then complain that the monster is boring after removing features?

[@user-fd5nz5lo7m]

Especially because of sheer amount of spells in their disposal! Dragons are sorcerers but they are not limited to sorcerer spells. I once ran a green dragon that used druidic and illusion spells. At first he wasn't even in the fight, he started by casting entangle while hiding in the water. At the end, when he was at death's door he casted mislead and dipped. Spells + raw draconic power are a match made in heaven.

[@bigrat1075]

11:47 something you might find interesting, fizban’s treasury of dragons has an updated/sidegrade version of the brainstealer, the elder brain dragon. They have really cool mechanics and lore relative to the rest of the silly lizards and make great long-term villains in my experience. Quick rundown, rather than enthralling or ceramorphizing a dragon, they steal an egg and “raise” (groom if I’m being blunt) it from birth. When it reaches adulthood, the elder brain devours its brain and starts to pilot its nervous system like a mech. This is an interesting twist on the typical ilithid modus operandi, and gives you a monster that has the intelligence, psionics, and cosmic horror of an elder brain alongside the sheer power and spectacle of a dragon. It’s a dragon that doesn’t just break stuff! I love them!

[@TheRoseWolf]

It's also one of the few, imo at least, creatures in DND that actually are capable of being a genuine threat to a world's existence based off their statblock alone.

[@TheAusar]

Okay, but how can you not appreciate the wise hermit on living on a mountain teaching you philosophy and guiding you through dark times being actually an ancient gold dragons.

[@matthewmorse2380]

I got so many ideas from warden dragons. Thank you so much. I’m excited.

[@RyugaruSenbi]

15:41 I recommend the series "what the monster manual doesn't tell you about x" by MrRhexx. His videos on dragons are great. Dnd dragons have plenty of lore. It's just not in the statblocks, probably because if you actually put it in it would make the monster manual twice as long. Like how silver dragons love humanoids, especially humans because they are so much more active than silver dragons due to their short lifespans and spend more time polymorphed into humanoids than almost any other dragons. Or how bronze dragons love checking out ships while polymorphed and if it has something they like they'll ask the captain if they can have it. Or how green dragons prefer scheming over using physical might and how red dragons prefer to live at great hights so they can better survey their territory and plan for everything. There's more but this comment is long enough as is

[@Username-cs1bi]

Exactly, as someone who already watchef mr rhexx, clicking this video made me roll my eyes the entire time. Good, interesting dragons already existed, 5e just didn't print it coz ir was already printed in draconomicon in older edition, doesn't mean it's not there. Forgotten realm fandom alone has a lost of nearly hundreds named dragons, who they are, where does they live, etc. All i see is biased hater trying to 'fix' problem that isn't there and 'come up' with unoriginal concept that had been made from canon D&D or other media.

[@breadstix-]

He finally talked about dragons. Never thought we’d get this far I cannot wait to use a warden dragon into a future campaign

[@solsystem1342]

Honestly I want to go add a dragon to my campaign now

[@sunnuntaiselori1927]

My jaw dropped when i saw this on my feed : , D

[@petre1758]

I guess we did smash that charity donation goal to bits

[@thechosenone5421]

he only did it because we reached over 2000$ with donations on livestream

[@lybner9789]

I was blown away how shallow his opinion was and how most points he made were either: Me no like dragons and me just read Monster Manual.

[@ReferenceMachinist]

That's literally the main antagonist of my campaign, a red dragon that reigns as the supreme leader of an empire and has conquered an entire continent.

[@gyrrakavian]

It's funny, I recently ran a campaign that had an antagonistic Orium dragon who hoarded the surviving isolated people of a lost high magic empire as much as the extremely rare plants of the sky city. The citizens were a blend of dwarves, genasi, and half elf that had thoroughly intermingled to the point of being one lineage.

[@emmanuellonghino5846]

Wait but aren't silver dragons just like that? Sure they not are dependant of people but they like to associate more with humanoids than with anything else. I'm pretty sure that in barovia there was a ruin that was the home of an order of paladin that followed an silver dragon.

[@lukaarsovski2995]

Pretty much, I just feel like P Hat is just too biased to like anything about the dragons. Like even among metallic dragons there's infighting, silvers are inactive and passive while gold dragons want to establish a world order. Even blue and green dragons are extremely cool to have an adventure made around to. Like mafia families or spy networks, but my dude here is just a hater lol

[@gratuitouslurking8610]

Let's not forget that Steel Dragons like humans so much they literally stay as humans for most of their lives.

[@whilenya4714]

​@@gratuitouslurking8610_Humanoids,_ but yeah, those are amazing!

[@regionfuego6]

And the green dragons literally hoard people. Their favorite "thing" to collect is elves.

[@grinninggoblin3698]

If I'm not mistaken Blue dragons hoard people as well.

[@alexschaefer7310]

Love the idea of a wizard/artificer dragon that replaces its lost limbs and organs with random magic stuff. It’s strength comes from time and experience, but with a whole wave of magic items

[@truekurayami]

It can be taken further that they have done such extensive modifications they have become a warforge dragon. In the case of a Warden Dragon's horde could be two-fold, the first basic horde would be of the wizards/artificiers it would take on to form a circle, and then a secondary horde from the "princes" that would have made a warforge type automaton of themselves forming some what of an "AI" hivemind style collective of each generation of the Warden's line that could grow the base horde amongst more regions without as much worry about control.

[@keithharper32]

maybe the Artificer dragon ascends it's prince by replacing the price's human (or whatever) parts with "cybernetic" dragon parts till it has fully become a metal dragon.

[@Theycallmeyoshi1]

reminds me of that golem that two guys loaded up with approx. ALL the artefacts and they realized that they'd fucked up in one of the msot spectacular ways only after the Golem started rolling the artefacts imbued with Wish Spells

[@ToriloOo]

here's a twist to that. make the replacements mimics! a mimic with enough smarts to make a deal with the person they are attached to. often paid with their meals and a "safe" way to live, the mimic acts like the lost limb/organ.

[@mozzapple]

I think song dragons are inspired by Sirens, which are creatures that take the form of beautiful women who sing to sailors to drown them

[@apjtv2540]

I feel like Fizban's did an excellent job of giving DM's ways to flesh out their dragons. Giving story hooks, plot threads, or just extra abilities, that help make dragons feel more alive. What I found as a useful hook is to remember the one defining trait of every dragon - their arrogance. Dragons are arrogant creatures, whether good or evil, and pride is an extremely flexible trait for an NPC to have.

[@thornelson1411]

One of my favorite was the Blue dragon asking players for help courting a Brass dragon

[@timeshark8727]

Its an interesting idea, however, Silver and Steel dragons tend to already do this sort of thing. Both types tend to live in cities, often becoming powerful and influential people in those cities that surround themselves with the best and brightest. There are also Gold dragons that do the 'founder of a school of magic' or "hoarders of ancient secrets and scholars' sort of thing. Red and Blue dragons are known to enslave entire civilizations, with Blue being closer to proper rulers and Reds being tyrannical dictators. The biggest difference between your idea and older lore is the dragon changing both its abilities and physical attributes to fit it's role, rather than having their role and abilities be determined by the type of dragon. I wonder if you've just had too many sessions with murder-hobos and DM's that cater to them instead of trying to be clever... or maybe its just that 5E sucked all the interesting stuff out of dragon lore. Dragons can be utilized in almost infinite ways if only because there is an almost infinite variety of them.

[@oompa1274]

Yeah honestly most of the video it kinda seemed to me like he was pretty much looking for a Steel dragon or another similar dragon. The problem with trying to give a creature like dragons a "new" twist, is that pretty much every twist possible with them has already been done

[@kelnhide]

Don't Steel Dragons hoard their memories of the human lives they live?

[@Wolfirhart]

Don't forget purple dragons, they too are centered to a big degree around amassing followers and thralls, but more through means of domination, manipulation and deceit. So they are essentially evil hoard dragons already

[@user-fd5nz5lo7m]

And ofc Green dragons literrary hoard humanoids. Either as slaves, or as follower or even regular paid workers. They are quite literary "dragon kidnapped a princess\prince" trope incarnate.

[@oghus]

@@user-fd5nz5lo7m My favourite lore snippet about greens (I think I heard it in MrRhexx's video, but not sure) is that they would just loooove to roleplay as Lord Realname the minor noble and messing around in court politics just for the funzies. And they hate the fact that they don't get innate shapechanging like the metallic dragons just because of this :D

[@Nightlight404.]

The silver dragon in my current campaign is a sort of protector deity of my draconic sorcerer’s family. They give a scale to any new family sorcerer and my character got theirs stolen leading to my involvement in the campaign.

[@sethb3090]

My character is an artificer who was gifted a box of scales by a silver dragon; he's crafted some impressive things with them (there's a steel-strength glass called dragon crystal, which he rediscovered).

[@tysondennis1016]

So, you’re tracking down the guy who stole the piece of dead skin that fell off your god?

[@ChestersonJack]

Warden Dragons and Kobolds could play off each other in interesting ways

[@hopefulmayhem5744]

I just want to point out Niv-Mizzit in Ravnica is a guild master of a science guild. He is specifically built around spell casting.

[@draynaruegames]

The Purple Dragons you mentioned are from 4e, where they're called Deep Dragons. The OG ones from older editions breathe plasma and are the offspring of Blue and Red Dragons. They're basically the dragon mafia with a breath weapon that can bypass Fire Resistance and also be focused into a "lance" to slice-off their foe's limbs. Dungeon Dad did a whole deep dive video into them xD

[@maxwellmerkel2537]

There are "technically" 4 purple dragons which is kinda dumb I'd like the 4 of them to be there own but there are the 2 you mention the plasma and psychic breath the. There's also the 5e fungal breath and the 2e and 3e corrosive breath dragon

[@koboldsage9112]

Forgot gem dragons. The 2e monster manual had stated amythest dragons, but other purple gemstone exist for homebrewing. Fairy dragons can be purple too, assuming they even count as dragons.

[@TugaYondaime]

There were purple dragons im 3.5... they were called deep dragons back then

[@jacobbrown9894]

Pointy Hat: They hoard people! Me, cocking an eyebrow: L-like slav- Pointy Hat: So they make organizations like a wizard school or knight order! Me, uncocking eyebrow: Ah okay

[@kennethmccarty362]

Interns. Unpaid interns

[@tenlosol]

I don't know still gets sketchy when you hit that "unwilling hoard members"

[@Halberds8122]

I mean they can be evil

[@cryptonyzer8699]

What? I wouldn't put it past a dragon to make slaves? 😂

[@ChewliusCheeser]

they gather Builder Buddies.

[@jasonlockhart999]

I think you should have a look at the D&D setting of Eberron. I find that their usage in that setting really follows the warden dragon you have designed. I use a silver dragon as a patron for my players.

[@kainepeterson6638]

You’re describing dragons from Shadowrun. I LOVE dragons like that. The stand in for Bahamut runs a German based corporation. A red dragon analog runs the magic downtown of Seattle, Washington, US. A dragon was LITERALLY the President of ALL of the Amazon rainforest area. He got blasted by the superpower that is Mexico (Atzlan in Shadowrun) after he went to war because baseline humans decided they were gonna massacre the magically evolved meta humans. A dragon was briefly President of the US until he just poofed out of existence. Dragons can be SUPER interesting

[@phantom3969]

i think your problem with dragons is that you treat them like monsters that should have something unique to them when they are basically just extremely powerful people you can center the plot of an adventure around a dragon the same way you would center it around any other humanoid creature

[@shineshadow]

But at that point they are Just powerful individuals or Turn into Godzilla when needed. PH adressed this in the Video. Why use dragons in that Case and Not Just powerful individuals? Answer: mostly astethics

[@jojameson5264]

⁠​⁠​⁠@@shineshadowat that point you may as well ask why have elves when you can just have long lived humans. The DM can make their own reason and backstory for why it’s a dragon and not just some random powerful individual. The point is there doesn’t need to be a universal reason to use a dragon that is true of all dragon kind. That actually restricts them. They don’t need a gimmick. Also aesthetics are actually incredibly important. See tiefling being hugely popular and aasamir much less so.

[@cyruscrompton8221]

​@@jojameson5264 At that point why have anything thats not human Why have medusa and not some wizard who can cast skin to stone? Why have a kobold and not just some weak humans? Why have elementals instead of just a wizard who cast fire spells? erm... aesthetics, lore and world building? Pff, as if...

[@shineshadow]

@@jojameson5264 the Point PH tried to make is related to dragons as written in the books and that they dont evoke interesting ideas in themselves. They need input from the GM to BE Made interesting and have few interesting aspects inherintly besides being shapeshifting Godzilla. A good DM can make everything interesting No question about that but WE are talking about how interesting the Base Material ist Made because that ist what everyone has to Work with. A newby GM would never think of using Standard dragons of dnd as anything Else than a big Combat Monster because that ist how they are written.

[@bobwasowsky270]

@@shineshadow I can tell you didn't even touch monster manual, there is a lot of material to work with there, every single one with their general mannerisms, wants and things they hoard, all solid hooks and ideas with barely any input needed from DM, new or otherwise.

[@tylerwebb2495]

Point Hat: There are way too many dragons! Also Pointy Hat: I made a new dragon!

[@inquisitorkobold6037]

Slight correction, purple dragons actually breathed plasma, making them one of the most terrifying colors as it ignored fire resistance and was bright enough to blind anyone who didn't cover their eyes in time.

[@Max-ek4dn]

This is clearly the video of someone who hasnt listened to the winter wyverns voice

[@MM-lv7iy]

16:36 I understand where this is coming from, but humanoid dragons have been done very well in the past. Hell, Uncle Iroh from the Last Airbender is many folks’ favorite dragon, and that’s just a title! There is something about the feeling of a dragon in a person that is awesome to behold when done right.

[@petre1758]

You watch overly sarcastic production

[@sebastianweise1567]

Yes that’s right but the dnd alignment system stops you from exploring that fully like in your example of Iroh something like that wouldn’t work without ignoring there alignment

[@The_Crimson_Witch]

​@@sebastianweise1567Alignment was always supposed to be more flexible than "they are all this alignment". Hence why more recent books say "Typically X alignment" unless it is a named NPC.

[@SuperBatSpider]

My first Dragon BBEG is a Turtle Dragon who wants to track down and marry a dragon guarding a hidden dungeon. Wanting to intimidate and kill her way to her goals, she is a Turtle Dragon who likes to make deals (Mainly being handed money to not show up). Turning into a person to hide, their need to hide prevents her from just turning into a dragon to murder the entire party. If they expose her or get close enough to freeing the dragon instead of her so she can’t he the rescuer who gets whatever ehe wants. She will essentially just say “Fuck it! They’re dying now!” and then into a dragon

[@samlippincott2181]

This weirdly reminds me of freaking bowser and peach for some reason lol

[@SuperBatSpider]

@@samlippincott2181 Yes. But we all steal stuff we like for DnD, consciously or subconsciously.

[@josephnorton1168]

I was writing an ancient purple dragon that was just crib from the green lantern series. She raising an army of different dragon colors to take over the world

[@mikeesplace]

I ran a game once where dragons were very rare in the setting, but one particular dragon (I think the only one the players ever met?) became an important NPC. She was a spellcaster, a silver dragon, and technically a minor deity. One of the PCs was a silver dragonborn and in this setting that meant she was descended from a dragon. The PC took to the dragon as kind of a surrogate mother and later I realized that given the rarity of dragons in the setting it was highly likely that they would be related, so I revealed she was the PC's great-great-(great?)-aunt. She became a kind of quest giver and ally without quite being a deus ex machina, since as she was technically a deity the rules surrounding her ability to intervene were constrained by divine law.

[@logantrabue9139]

Two really interesting things about dragons in D&D. 1. Dragons hoard wealth because their god/creator won't let them into dragon heaven unless their hoard is over an unspecified amount. 2. Elves put a terrible curse on all dragons. There's a specific comet that has been magically altered so when it returns all dragons go into a crazy bloodlust and kill all other dragons around them, even their own children. That's why dragon cities don't exist and they tend to live alone. At least according to MrRhexx.

[@matelic8]

My thought's exactly. The problems he describse only come about if you know nothing about dragons.

[@mamneo2]

Incroyable.

[@TheReZisTLust]

Thay sounds incredibly unimaginative lmao

[@Plumpus3545]

It still doesn’t sound that interesting

[@johnjuben8635]

That is so boring so we are going to do the one move which is fuck this

[@lazyman8093]

The flavoring potential for this is insane. Depending on how dark you want your story to be, a prince becoming the next Warden Dragon is either a good friend carrying on the powers and legacy of their mentor, or a horrific tale of a real monster grooming a human to be willing to allow their own will and body to be dominated by the mind of a dragon that views them as property fulfilling its purpose. I can see stories of WD's starting orphanages to care for lost children, and the heartwarming story of the big brother/sister of the group taking up their mantle when it's time for their beloved caretaker to pass on. So many incredible opportunities, i love this idea.

[@mra4521]

That second story about a dragon grooming their successor whether they like it or not reminds me of Daemon Targaryen from HOTD.

[@MegaMato]

I would totally play a bodyguard for a student trying to complete their "travel abroad" program.

[@PenDragonx]

I immediately thought of an arcane super max prison ran by an ancient dragon

[@raszota8466]

I am the dragon of my dungeons CR20 encounter is my body, lair actions are my blood I have thrown a thousand dragons at my party Plenty western And plenty eastern Have whistood pain to create many encounters Yet this DM can never slay a Dragon So as I pray Unlimited Drake Works

[@bionicdragon5]

Hey, that's the Abyss you're walking into.

[@calebkopp7636]

I was not expecting this in the comments but I'm here for it.😂

[@GM-lx7ji]

Domain Expansion! Boundless Dragon hoard!

[@Damandra]

Love this. Thank you. 🥰

[@raszota8466]

@@bionicdragon5 Veteran DM when a new guy asks to run a oneshot: Hey, thats Hell you are walking into.

[@coolgreenbug7551]

Something that I'm gleaning from the comments is that your main problem with Dragons seem to stem mostly from the Monster Manual. Most of the juicy dragon stuff is either in newer 5e books like Fizban's or pulled from older editions like what Dungeon Dad and Mr. Rhexx have done. The Monster Manuel has sort of a "Yeah you know what a dragon is here's the stats have fun" vibe which does not help someone like you who doesn't find them that interesting in the first place. Also you need to do a video on how to actually have DND Godzilla and/or revamp the Tarrasque. Most of the giant monsters in DND don't really have much to them other than HP and their actual size doesn't feel like it means anything but a bigger target to hit

[@AxelLeJeff]

I'm hearing a lot of the same notes of things I've learned from lost dragon lore in that Dungeon Dad series, and while I like the idea of the dragon's hoard and personality defining their appearance, rather than the opposite, it's very mildly frustrating to know this stuff already exists.

[@ANDELE3025]

Fizbans has very little actual lore or juicy content beyond items and the extra lair effects as it is self admittedly propaganda by Bahamut (and mostly Dragonlance specific).

[@zedbee2736]

If you look at the older editions, or Pathfinder, I think you'll find some interesting stuff for dragons. Granted it makes them genuinely terrifying foes that melt stone at will with their sheer presence, an aura of flame that just deals damage to people who stand too close, and gives their breath weapons a disintigration-like effect if it brings you too low, but it gives their threat a bit more bite than 5e does.

[@nturner8213]

@@ANDELE3025 idk im finding the draconomicon a great source for looking at ways to flavor the many dragons in that book. Dragon Ideals with varied aligment goals (A red Dragon with Lawful nature? Wow I don't need to treat them as some big statblock monster!), connected creatures to help not make dragons the big solo godzilla for each age category, suggested spellcasting. theres a good amount there if you look through it.

[@ANDELE3025]

@@nturner8213 Bad copies of 2e and 3e draconomicon non-crunch content with bad crunch that is mostly DL specific or outright nerfs merely cements that the MM statblock+text are still miles superior.

[@kierinhernandez7524]

I feel that the dragons outlined out in the D&D wiki are more templates for making beleiveable dragons no matter where you are. Earth dragon beneath the surface makes sense, Iron Dragon in the mines sounds good. The bulk of where dragons are interesting is the twist DM's add to the formula (Should I should say). Dragons can be huge bosses, prisoners, a part of nature, a diety, a natural disaster or occurence in the world, or character in a story. Calcryx in a game my friend ran was a baby prisoner that was captured by goblins that we saved and became an integral party member

[@pyrosolboy]

I love the idea of warden dragons. My one thing would be; how do they maintain their horde as something they actually own, and not, say, a revolving tavern of adventurers? Is it just a choice of good/neutral dragons use pure charisma and/or bargaining and bad dragons use something akin to jails and slave collars? Or would there be some kind of magic element, like a notable tattoo on all the hordes population that enables ... some kind of power transfer to the dragon? Otherwise i think the concept is super solid!

[@lurkingdrake4193]

Sylvan dragons being not fairy dragons, but different dragons touched by the magic of the feywilds who feel a particular fondness to nature can easily take the position as an Archdruid in a circle. Their natural shape-shifting gives a reason for their circles to learn whildshape as well.

[@Toesucc]

i love this channel so i mean this in the most polite and loving way, this dude just reinvented good blue dragons tbh, they build kingdoms and empires, are the most family based dragons, and are honestly only "evil" because they had to fit with other chromatics but if run entirely on their goals they play out lawful neutral a lot of the time, they have traditional hoards but what they value themselves on is their kingdoms that they build

[@miles3101]

A particularly important thing that I always note on dnd vids is that people really misunderstand the alignment chart, with Pointy Hat here being an example. "Evil" alignment is centered on the self the same way "Good" alignment centers on the whole, and with this tiny bit of context you can make a huge amount of things with dragons. For example, a Golden Dragon may choose to start a council because they want to exchange their knowledge for the knowledge of it's students in order to amass and distribute it from all over the land, a Silver Dragon may choose to start teaching magic to nobles of a royal bloodline in order to show preference to the descendants of a deceased friend that ascended to monarchy, whereas a Blue Dragon could teach magic to some of it's troops in order to empower their lair's defenses and therefore better protect their hoard, or a Black Dragon could teach forbidden magic to individuals only to watch them crumble under power they cannot handle and enjoy the entertainment of it. Dragons (like other intelligent creatures) can be characterized in a myriad of ways, so limiting oneself to "this big lizard is very strong and also a raging racist" I feel is a tremendous disservice to the source material.

[@TypetwoAbsolute]

I've fought a dragon ran by a experienced DM and it was a ridiculously fun encounter, they had access to magic, traps, minions, juvenile hatchlings, tricking you into investigating a fake treasure hoard while they ambush you with breath weapons sitting at the entrance of the cave. Golds start melting and become a melting gold pit to escape from. There's no reason you should be tank & spanking dragons when they can fly, use magic and pelt you with breath weapons in the air repeatedly. Then once attacked at low HP they mirror imaged, teleported, retreated to rest, and had a nearby town under their control and started politicking about a crazy group of heroes that tried to slay their illusioned king. They're smart af creatures, act like it!

[@kdavidsmith1]

Warden Dragons are awesome and it gives the the perfect back story for a Dragonborn Sorcerer character I've been thinking about...

[@abrarnoorani8385]

Now I have an idea for a more aquatic Bard dragon that travels the seas to distant lands to collect stories from around the world. Collecting fleets of scholars, storytellers and people of all walks of life for their varied stories. Perhaps base it on a whale with a play on a whale's song being a force breath weapon and it's actually a bardic song but sung so loud it can level houses?

[@claytonharting9899]

I love it, I need it

[@mrmars4939]

That sounds more like thunder damage doesn't it? 🤔

[@Tiosedan]

Maybe their lairs are HUGE island like ships with a city, farming area, etc . . .

[@kamikeserpentail3778]

I had one of a heavy metal blue dragon. He had a long whip-like tail he plugged into an electric guitar, and used his wings as amps. Went about coercing towns to send groups of musicians to his battle of the band's competition, with the intent of challenging the winner of the competition to build his own reputation. I had his "breath" weapon be a cone coming from each wing, half thunder half lightning damage.

[@ourochroma]

I wan to think that some of those eventually write books, and read books, and go to annual writing conventions.

[@emperortenebrisemeraldwing8578]

There are never enough Dragons in this game

[@robklaebe6212]

Your suggestion of the Warden Dragon was crazy to me because at first it sounded like an idea that I had a while back and the more you kept describing it the more it sounded like my idea, even down to the idea of passing on their essence to a mortal rather than giving birth. The ideas weren't totally one to one but it's funny how untouched the idea of dragons hording people that people can independently think of a similar idea when trying to deviate from standard D&D dragons. Thanks for making this video!

[@comicallylargerat7896]

“We’re gonna make dragons that hoard people” that just sounds like slavery with extra steps

[@TheZachAttack777]

You have this uncanny knack for inspiring my imagination in a way other D&D content doesn't. Your art is so outstanding. I will be blatantly stealing this for my upcoming campaign, thank you sir have a good day.

[@krzlcve]

Agreed! His videos get me excited over the games again

[@jor4114]

Took the words right out of my mouth. I'm gonna be using this for my next campaign too, and the system is not even gonna be D&D!

[@alistaire6220]

Are you able to download this as a PDF? I can't for some reason.

[@woodykrska9947]

@@alistaire6220I think they ment the dragon concept, not the art.

[@marijnschotsman5122]

No way he actually talked about them I thought the day would never come! (Btw I think you make really creative and original content keep doing what you do.)

[@crimsonchaos7224]

Here’s an idea that’s probably really unbalanced, but I figured I’d share it anyway: what if you gave the Warlock an ability that lets it regain spell slots when a certain criteria is met, such as killing an enemy? That way you could allow the Warlock to actually use its spells more freely without the looming concern of “what if I need them later?”, plus it shouldn’t completely overshadow the Warlock’s reliance on cantrips.

[@mandotoro]

In a homebrew setting I ran, I used dragons as phsyical embodiments of the "elements" of the setting, where they were used more a stand-ins for "gods" of the realm. There were only 7, and 6 of them lived on a literally floating city above the continent; the 7th being the element of the Wild, who lived in hiding in the wilderness.

[@aGoshDarnTravesty]

This is a fun idea. When thinking about examples like "What would a barbarian dragon or a monk dragon be like" I immediately started thinking about Magic the Gathering's Tarkir setting, which includes a timeline where each faction in the game is ruled over by a flavorfully and mechanically appropriate dragon. There's some good jumping off points in there with monasteries lead by a spiritual philosopher dragon, or opulent jungle necromancers ruled by a dragon that hoards undead servants.

[@truekurayami]

Magic the Gathering does have some great aspects, to work with for the warden archetype, Nicol Bolas is a perfect example for a spell caster dragon, and one of the "mage" Wardens as a BBEG example

[@THATGuy5654]

I can only imagine that a barbarian Warden Dragon would take on the characteristics of a bear, (berserk= bear shirt) which is something I'd like to see.

[@user-dx8dy1uo8b]

An interesting way to play a Warden Dragon at the table could be using Sir Gideon Ofnir as a template. A ruthless control freak that is hell bent on collecting “something” in this case people, while in Gideon’s case it’s knowledge. They would give the party the idea that they need to earn its respect to reach their goal, while in reality they are just another set of pawn to be moved on the board, as they pinned them against one another to get rid of the weaker link. Maybe, much like sir Gideon, a warden dragon has eyes and ears everywhere to fully control its hoard, and even a symbol to represent them. If the players are attentive enough, they’ll realize that every move they’re making is being monitored by the warden dragon and maybe they could even realize their actually doing their bidding without knowing it. A villain like this really helps bring a world to life, it’s a shame that in the game his final showdown was handled very poorly.

[@tysondennis1016]

I’m thinking of a Dragonborn Barbarian that’s effectively Baxcalibur

[@RomLoneWolf23]

Okay, but the whole "Dragons hoarding people" thing is something you can do with the regular existing Dragons. Red Dragons can hoard armies of conquering warriors who pay it tribute. Gold Dragons can hoard an order of LG Paladins. I mean, hell, take a look at Eberron; they've got an entire society of Dragons who are constantly getting involved in manipulating events in the world (secretly, for reasons). I do like the Magus Dragon, though. But if you're going to have the classic Wizard beard be based on Magus Dragons, might as well make their head fins look like a wizard hat too. Edit: So, I upvoted this video, because frankly I wanna see you make more Dragons. I'm sure that once you have a few more Dragon concepts under your belt, you'll grow to love them too.

[@SImrobert2001]

I honestly think a LOT of his complaints are already done and fixed by other people. Its just not fixed by WOTC. The statblock is combat based because there are players who absolutely want to fight everything. Literally every complaint PH has got a "I've seen it done, elsewhere, so why haven't you?" comment from me. The spells aren't written in stone, and I frequently make changes to other statblocks. I've seen dragons (like brass dragons) used as pranksters, one of which who owned an inn, and enjoyed attempting to seduce people. Once upstairs, she'd put them to sleep via magic, take their clothes. When they wake up several minutes later, they'd have to walk downstairs in their underwear/boxers.

[@Draxynnic]

@@SImrobert2001 As I commented elsewhere, I was thinking through the entire justification for hating dragons "this feels like a recent edition problem". 3E and before had a lot of information on how to use dragons beyond being "big monster that breaks stuff", including non-combat-oriented special abilities and advising DMs not to load a dragon's spell list with too many combat spells because dragons know they're good at combat, they're likely to choose spells that help in other ways. WOTC writers in recent editions seem to have forgotten this.

[@Kashin1701]

While 5e is worse at it that earlier editions, even then. They are not just the Godzilla fight he is talking about. It is Godzilla with the brain and wealth of Lex Luthor. Such a shame to have that whole aspect ignored. @@Draxynnic

[@LupineShadowOmega]

@@Kashin1701 Also the connections of Lex Luthor. Dragons already have vast armies of followers, depending on the dragon. If they're a red dragon, maybe that is Kobolds, maybe its Lizardfolk, or maybe Tiamat cultists. If they're Green, then maybe its a city spanning thieves guild...but evil dragons love dominating "lesser creatures" and tons of metallics are just looking for human and other sentient humanoid interaction.

[@Draxynnic]

@@Kashin1701 Depends on the dragon in question - some genuinely aren't that intelligent. But that's the thing - previous editions did put a spotlight on noncombat aspects as well, but there seems to be a trend for the monster manuals to focus more and more on just the combat statblocks. Now, I'm not that familiar with 5E myself, but the editions I am familiar with at least managed to hint towards the "they're smart as well" aspect, and splatbooks went into some detail on some of the shenanigans that could result in. It's just that the hook tends to vary between dragons, rather than the whole race coming with an inbuilt hook as happens with, say, mind flayers.

[@Totas_funnynumber]

I just like to think that there's at least one warden dragon who solely just wants friends

[@brucewatkinson5254]

Thank you for this video, as I’ve been struggling to come up with a more fun or unique dragon mechanic for my campaigns, and your solution is a sound one. As a kid, my favourite reasoning for why a dragon amasses a large horde of treasure (specifically gold), is so they can use it for a make-shift bed, similar to how birds and other animals would find comfortable materials as they make their nest. I also like the notion of a dragon consuming soft metals to strengthen their scales.

[@kamiwriterleonardo6345]

The idea of the Warden Dragon is pretty cool, but I feel most of your criticisms about Dragons are more accurately said as criticism of 5e's portrayal of Dragons. Like you said, they have a bunch of books from older editions that build them up, their personality and how everything they have actually works. 5e streamlined them, sure, but ended up making them boring, if you're not willing to research deeper into what they are and how they think. For example... yes, dragons like to hoard stuff, but that's not explained why... in 5e. In older editions, it explained that dragons hoard stuff because essentially, that is their "payment" to even get an afterlife, after eons of living, once a dragon reaches their twilight years, they begin eating their hoard of treasure, and if it doesn't reach a cap of at least 135.000 GP, that was theirs for at least 200 years, all consumed in one day, their death process fails. What happens if it fails is up to the DM, but it is said that Dragon Ghosts will manifest if a dragon is killed and their hoard, stolen right after. They will remain until their hoard is given back, and once given back, the ghost and the hoard will disappear. After consuming that hoard, the dragon will go to a dragon graveyard within 3 days, at which point it will simply will itself dead, their bodies disappearing, and their magic seeping into the land, only a few bones remaining. Alternatively, the dragon will choose a special location, and once there, will fuse and meld itself with the environment, changing and morphing it into a shape suited to the dragon's personality, and once this process is complete, it will become a sanctuary where other dragons gather and maybe even lay eggs. As for personalities, all you need is being a bit creative with the standard you're given. Red Dragon: You can make a tyrant red dragon that, while powerful, is tactical enough to just persuade and manipulate a kingdom into following it as a ruler, while willingly giving it their riches. Any rebellion isn't met with death, but huge warnings like earthquakes and volcanic eruptions, that will coerse the people into punishing said criminals. White Dragon: A lone hunter of the tundra, you can make so it hires adventurers to fetch it several different specimen for its lair, so it plays hunting games with them. Make it so that their requests get more and more depraved and cruel, until the party themselves become the next target. After all, they were the ones to bring such specimens, so they must be fun prey to hunt. Green Dragon: My personal favorites, because you can shape them into any kind of deceitful villains. Make it like a slithering cunning snake, or a tyrannical ruler of a country built on lies, maybe make a scar type character that plans on ursurping another green dragon from the seat of power. The possibilities are endless. Black Dragon: A demon of calamity, for when you want the classic godzilla type monster. However, you could make one that's a bit eccentric, make them hire adventurers to go spelunking on different dangerous ruins of long gone civilizations, retreive artifacts, and take them to the dragon. Payment? How about the spare money of those the Dragon ate before? Basically, a villain if you want a "Lethal Company" esque adventure. Blue Dragon: Ah, the whole familial thing is fascinating with the blue dragons. I like to imagine them like either noble households influencing kingdoms, or mafias that run the underworlds of society. They are lawful evil, so they will very well stick to contracts and laws. These are very versatile. Metallics as a whole can be flexible, since the concept of "good" for a thousand year old dragon may not be the same concept of good for the average Joe. Maybe a Gold Dragon inspired by the God Emperor of Mankind, wanting to save humanity from total destruction, but being ignorant and apathetic of the individual humans themselves. So long as humanity still exists, what happens doesn't matter... right?

[@AeonHero64]

Love the video, just wanted to say there’s a steel dragon from the Forgotten Realms that’s similar to your warden dragons in practice - named Zundaerazylym, the Laughing Wyrm. While she disguises herself as a simple laundress / seamstress in Neverwinter, she’s really the mastermind of an entire network of spies and adventurers working towards one goal - find a way to let humans and dragons live together harmoniously. (She’s already found a cheap replacement food source for chromatic dragons!) While she’s a powerful monster in her own right, her real power comes from her guild, who she provides with good pay and magic items. I plan on running a campaign based on this group (called the “soft claws”) soon, but I think I’ll take a couple of your ideas in this video to flesh things out.

[@snock5487]

she's the best

[@jBaO493]

Bruh The "a dragon is as powerful as the size of its hoard" concept is something that was done in FREAKING MY LITTLE PONY Pretty funny they came up with something that cool lol

[@ODXT]

An old D&D magazine for 3rd edition also had this concept for a dragon. I think they were literally just called Hoard Dragon.

[@fishlobs]

this video has helped me improve on a story i have been working out in my head tyvm

[@fishlobs]

well my idea is tangential to warden dragons

[@SilverScribe85]

Of all creatures in mythology, Dragons are my jam! In Overon, a mystical realm I created in some books I wrote, Dragons are not only the creators of the realm but they're also highly intelligent (as in they're capable of thought, speech and human-like emotion.) The dragons of Overon are all affiliated with the elemental forces of nature; Earth, Wind, Fire, Water, Light and Darkness. Of all of them, only ONE dragon had gone fully evil; whereas all other members of their species have taken an oath...to protect the weak and never harm the innocent

[@GustavoIto]

let me guess.. the evil one is Water, right? :v

[@failtronic2646]

@@GustavoIto Fire and Darkness come to mind first, but honestly, what if it was the Light one going full megalomaniac?

[@SilverScribe85]

@@GustavoIto Nope, the sole evil dragon in Overon was Dracus; a dragon of shadow that existed alongside the very first dragons that created the realm. He chose the path of evil because he felt his power and that of his kinfolk was being wasted on "trivial" things like creating landscapes and watching over whatever creatures dwelt there. Eager to reign supreme, Dracus sought out to claim the one thing that gave all his kind their mystical power; the Crystal of the Elements. Created by beings known as the Council of Elementals, this gemstone contained the mystical forces of nature itself; earth, wind, fire, water, ice and so on. Drakus wanted to take all the power of that stone for himself but he was stopped by one of his former brethren; the Light Dragon, Xanatos. After his defeat, Dracus was imprisoned inside of a smaller crystal and sealed deep in the mountains

[@SilverScribe85]

@@failtronic2646 Nope In Overon, Light Dragons are considered among the wisest and most benevolent of their species. Fire Dragons, much like their natural element, are often the fiercest and most bull-headed. But they aren't prone towards harming others unless they themselves are threatened directly. Earth Dragons care deeply for the rock and stone, they make certain that all other races take care of the realm they live in. Should they take too much from nature without compensating properly, the Earth Dragons would certainly let them know. Sea Dragons are a most unique branch of the Dragon species in Overon. While most of their kind breathe fire, Sea Dragons breathe ice or (on rare occasions) scalding hot steam. They also prefer to sleep deep below the waters of lakes, rivers and the ocean. Air Dragons are often the most playful but when threatened, they expel a sort of noxious breath that either poisons or disgusts any creature exposed to it. But regardless of whatever element they embody, nearly ALL the dragons of Overon (save for Dracus) live by a solemn vow; to protect the weak and never harm the innocent. In other words, you won't find any dragons there hoarding treasure or capturing maidens

[@failtronic2646]

@@SilverScribe85 Sounds about right. Well written! I would've absolutely subverted the expectation myself.

[@BrendanKOD]

Interesting idea. Though even taking a step back, there's a lot of ways to make a regular dragon's hoarding desires become big in the world. You could have evil dragons who expand their hoards by moonlighting as loansharks, or real estate speculators (Like Freeza from DBZ). Or you could involve the PC's in a business that's partially owned by a dragon to fuel their hoard. Some Dragons are explained as liking to hoard pieces of art, so patronage could be part of that campaign. Or of course, when the PC's get an exceptionally big score, they might want to consult with a Dragon Accountant to figure out their taxes.

[@petre1758]

Sapphire dragon who wants to add the party to the hoard/army for their military prowess, but is swayed by an offering of the enemies adventures face. Becomes a reoccurring character.

[@robertdirenzo1827]

Pyroclastic dragons are supposedly super rare but ultra powerful because they get insane AOE attacks, and if you aren't immune to fire damage it's a god tier amount of dice damage.

[@vooshPOW]

Warden dragons are a very cool idea for involving dragons in actual campaigns, but specifically doesn't work well with universities. Academic research actually benefits from multiple people with opposite views researching the same subject, since the knowledge is shared for others to build upon. It makes more sense for "circles" to work together to expand their knowledge, and for their rivals to be other sources of magic - especially those that aren't fully understood, like divine magic or perhaps otherworldly magic.

[@Salvanim]

Imagine a dragon that grows in power not by the amount of people under their control, but the strength of loyalty they share between their companions

[@sheldonharrison9065]

Very “my friends are my power” anime vibez lol

[@ordinarydork2515]

This could be the Paragon Dragon he mentioned, the one inspired by the paladin

[@Strix182]

Sounds like Fire Emblem, sign me up.

[@TheDragonCat99]

Shonen protagonist dragon

[@ourochroma]

Familia!

[@itmefalco]

Had the idea of Strahd Von Zarovitch as a Warden Dragon of cursed/despaired individuals. Vampire dragon also just sounds sick as hell.

[@robinwilliams9970]

A regenerating dragon with bonus necrotic damage on bite that also heals it and it has that massive strength bonus on the grapple, turns to mist on zero hp instead of dying, since its a rich dragon its coffin is a giant adamant crypt filled with traps and glyfs. You need a ballista to stake it. Gary Gygax would approve

[@toombs24]

lol, I had very similar idea run through my head while watching this. But using a Dragon as the Dracula, the original vampire.

[@vinny985]

vampire dragon IS sick as hell malzeno my beloved

[@electro_lux2232]

@@vinny985 and you can mix primordial with this idea and it would be perfect. I swear monster hunter and final fantasy to me have SO MANY things you could use to create literally ANYTHING

[@kingsleyzvikaramba7662]

“The year of rogue dragons” is a great story with lots of lore on dragons and showcases many soluble species.

[@Llewyn.Kelley]

6:40 Thanks! Now I know what to get my chef for christmas

[@eduardotr7362]

Silver Dragons already do live in civilization like the “Warden” type you created, frequently creating social circles at the top of the city or country. Red and Blue Dragons are known to conquer countries and the latter even spends most of it’s time having fun strategizing for the coming battles. Green Dragons have a hobby of meddling and watching mortals like a tv show, even already hoarding people and influence the same way as Red do gold as said in the monster manual. Saying they are only Godzilla monsters is flat out having no imagination, because they can take any sort of role a humanoid villain or ally can and also be a big monster. Want a better spell list for a spell caster Dragon? Just say they studied like others, they surely have the time, affinity and resources for it. Want a cunning and manipulative villain? Greens are right there. Want a Mad tyrant warlord that wins through strategy and might? Blues are perfect. Want reliable allies? Silvers have both influence and power to be. Want a trickster “deity” that trolls the party while also helping? Coppers love humor in general while being good at the same time. Do you need a wise character that won’t take the spotlight in battle? Old Gold Dragons that don’t act for every little problem fit the need. The only thing you need to do is actually think about Dragons as MORE than a Godzilla boss fight, the Wyvern is the version of Dragons you talk about because they are nothing but a fight. The point of them being just one of many other smart monsters is also kinda dumb because many of them have different goals and characteristics. Vampires have strengths, weaknesses and wants unique to them, Liches have their armies of undead and the phylactery to infinitely respawn unless it is destroyed, mind flayers work separately from anything else. Same even within the categories of Dragons as they tend to act completely differently from each other. The reveal of “this character was a Dragon all along” can be a very cool moment if pulled off correctly, especially if the DM sprinkles clues of them being “weird” and acting oddly without being obvious. It creates tension when the imposing figure in the room is secretly hiding their true capabilities and the players aren’t sure what the hell they are, this can’t be done with many of the other smart monsters. The Godzilla incarnation you showed has no personality and sense of self, no wisdom, no desire and no ambition. He is the opposite of the Dragons in everything but the fight seeing as they are greedy and prideful creatures that can fulfill any role a DM places them in. The “Warden” Dragons are cool tho.

[@tylercapehart6970]

Bros mad

[@xsquatchmojo8939]

Honesty one of the problems with the channel is how these “problems” basically don’t take into account a DM’s desire to be imaginative in general. Not a hater, but a lot of these videos can be summed up as “add your own twist”. Hell, even a boring “kaiju” monster can work as long as the interesting details are on the victim’s reactions to it. Like a godzilla movie.

[@daelusraine2989]

People just don't think about D&D the same way anymore😢

[@durarada]

@@xsquatchmojo8939he quite literally points out constantly throughout these videos that his problem with these things is how they are written by WOTC in the books. None of these are him saying PLAYERS do these things poorly, he’s fixing the base issue he sees with the boring way the writers wrote them. Everything in the original reply is stuff that has to be ADDED on to the dragons by the DM, none of that is played with or pulled on by the dragon stat blocks or written sections in the DnD books. misrepresenting his whole point for this series of videos is disingenuous as hell and kinda weird just to complain about the same thing he’s saying

[@jacobodom8401]

@@durarada Yes but the OPs point is that the archetypes that Pointy Hat describes already exist with the Chromatic and Metallic Dragons. It is Pointy Hats fault for having a very reductionist view of Dragons, letting his bias about Dragons get in the way, and ignoring already established lore about them in the books available. Basically the problems he describes only exist if you ignore everything thats already been established about Dragons in D&D

[@323starlight]

I think Dragons are more of a category. A Hydra is basically a dragon, Jormangandr the World Serpent can be considered a dragon, Vritra from Hindu myth and even Typhon from Greek Myth can be considered dragons. When you want to make a dragon, you can slap as many wings, horns, spikes as you want. Even when it comes to eastern dragons, wings are negotiable.

[@heitorpedrodegodoi5646]

Semi-dragons.

[@raulperez375]

They're kinda like crabs in that way

[@ILoveJamesFelt]

This guy plays some Final Fantasy, and I'm fucking here for it.

[@marcusdaloia2974]

True and False Dragons are things which exist.

[@jemm113]

@@ILoveJamesFelt lol yeah, aint no way you drop Vritra AND Typhon as examples in the same sentence and not be in a FF binge 😂

[@Xuphilo_CHSM]

Welp. I now want to: A. Make an adventure centered around a Magus Dragon, and B. Make a Dragonborn sub race for the Magus Dragon Curse you and your amazing home brew skills (not really thank you for this cool owl dragon)

[@jonnyscoutgames]

imo a "magical godzilla" would likely be a tarrasque, not a dragon. Godzilla and a tarrasque are both apocalyptic events, rather than a general problem for a zip code depending on the disposition of the dragon.

[@Tony-nt5zd]

There's a lot of cool similarities between how you do dragons here and how I've always done them in my worlds. To cut a long story short, they're like your dragons in reverse: where your wardens form their hoards from people, it is groups of people, long-standing traditions, and shared convictions that birth dragons from among that population's number: champions who eventually become something more than mere mortals. This is why dragons are often worshiped as gods, because from a mortal's perspective, they serve the same purpose. It's also part of why nations and organizations often use dragons as heraldry, either harkening back to a dragon of legend or inspiring their own to become one.

[@PsiPrimeProductions1]

Paizo's pathfinder is doing something fun as a story bit with dragons. There is a dragon on Golarion (pathfinder's world) who's horde is so large that it has many rare and unique items, and it keeps growing because people keep trying to steal from her. And unlike other items, she employs a clan of Kobolds to put the items on display and show the stuff off . . . like a museum. Now there are people asking to get access to her lair to study ancient forms of armor or lost magic items or techniques and so she's kinda turned into this museum/trader/information broker . . . who will eat you if you try to cross her. I think that's novel and the idea is fun . . . much more than 'big monster kill for teh lootz.'

[@jeanrushmer8192]

I can imagine a little goblin PA, walking around making sure everything is in place 😂

[@PsiPrimeProductions1]

@@jeanrushmer8192 Kobold but yeah, there's even a Pathfinder Society (equivalent of DnD adventure League) where you do a quest for the Kobold. Pretty fun!

[@oldmankatan7383]

Our group stumbled on a similar dragon theme: Breeders. To effectively breed something, you need to live longer than one of the target species generation. Dragons live longer than everything (except elves, kind of). So, they have been breeding things in the world for a long time. Want a quest for an epic wolf mount? Go find the green dragon family that's been breeding dogs for fun and profit for 5000 years! What about those people? That cute old matchmaker witch from the village is actually a silver dragon trying to breed a certain kind of people. Royal bloodlines? Yeah, most of the marriages between powerful families is brokered by Dragons, masquerading as trusted counselors or oracles. One of my favorites was Jerome, a copper dragon who sponsored a couple fine arts academies and was trying to breed/train the best musicians in the world. Jerome also appreciated a good butler, and had been tending a family of them for a couple hundred years.