The Problem with Perennialism | Moshe Idel

[@SeekersofUnity]

Watch the full interview: kzbin.info/www/bejne/lXW5fGuYlqeMj7c

[@TheEsotericaChannel]

Really fine interviewing here: pushing Idel with nothing but respect for his scholarship but also really trying to dig down on the philosophical topic at hand. Zevi, you really do a fine job of not soft-balling him but also really paying Idel the respect he deserves precisely by making him defend the claim at hand. Solid, respectful and intellectually honest work.

[@SeekersofUnity]

Thank you Justin. That’s very kind of you to say and means a lot to me. He was kinda terrifying to interview. I’m so glad the respect and rigor came through. Thank you Justin. I learn from the best ;)

[@TheEsotericaChannel]

@@SeekersofUnity Of course, you know I am rather close with Idel on this point. But, I totally admire your bravery here and it's a real kind of bravery informed by kavod harav such that a gaon such as Idel is honored not by being pampered but by being allowed to reveal precisely why he that very gaon by pressing, by insisting, by asking further, by not letting him get away. That bravery to push, and really push because it damn well philosophically matters, is your kavod and you deeply deserve it. Thanks so much for this whole series - it's amazing.

[@אי-שניותביהדות]

​@@christopherp.8868 I've been playing with chatgpt, trying yo push it on the issue of a common denominator in all religious mysticism. I still believe that the core of mysticism is one and the same but each particular mysticism has a different conclusion and approach stemming from the same experience.

[@roselotusmystic]

Yes . . . MeisterFull Dialogue Zevi 👍🙏 And . . . Would have loved to see you to incorporate the Eastern Mystical Traditions into the Dialogue with Moshe Idel 🙏

[@roselotusmystic]

@@christopherp.8868 So . . . WhyNot? TransDual . . . TransClusive . . . Paradoxical . . . PluralUnity🙏

[@kulturkriget]

He's got a point tbh. But I think there is a individualistic particular for everyone. There is a fundamental perennialism, but everyone has to experience and express it through their own particular perspective. Edit: To clarify. I mean that we aren't even existing in a common reality, from which these sort of searches can be done. Which means that we all have different foundations. Unique to our cognitive patterns and experiences. We can transcend our reality but only in accordance to our reality.

[@Christianity_and_Perennialism]

None of those men he named with the arguable exception of Eliade are any sort of authority on the perennial philosophy. The actual perennialist authors like Guénon, Schuon, Nasr, demonstrate the common silence behind the spoken words of the religions; the common screen upon which the movies of the multiple religions are all projected; the one ocean beneath the various waves; etc. None of them are calling for syncretism, forfeiture or homogeneity. Rather they are helping the intellectual man embrace his own religion with complete conviction, via esoterism, just as the emotional man is already able to via exoterism. The emotional man has to feel that someone else is wrong in order for his own view to be correct, but the intellectual man accepts that it’s possible for two, apparently contradictory, views to be simultaneously correct, because only the Absolute is absolute.

[@_Erendis]

''They are helping the intellectual man embrace his own religion with complete conviction, via esoterism, just as the emotional man is already able to via exoterism.'' That is so well-said, I am in awe. Just subscribed to your channel!

[@Bildgesmythe]

My life is bereft of intellectuals. To be able to sit in on these conversations is a gift. It's wonderful to be exposed to new ideas and concepts. Thank you and all your guests.

[@ivan.olavarria.p]

I get some of the points, but strongly disagree in others. I like to put the emphasis on the similarities rather than the differences between cultures and traditions because, in my opinion, that allows us to grasp more some of the core aspects present in the human spirit than focusing on the particularities of how those things were interpreted in a very specific place and time.

[@AlexanderSy]

There is this odd apophetic unknowing that we must keep as mystics. At one point, we realise that the divine is ineffable, but yet we want to understand it, to feel its reality in our souls. And yet, this deeply experienced realisation of that both the unifying holistic and the pluralistic choatic are both divine expressions in what I hope keep the mystic's heart alive to. That which transcends both the one and the many, the Real, but is equally in the Many while not being reduces to a "One". In the end, the Divine is approached mystically in both holy Silence and in mythical poetic Rabbles of holy adoration.

[@Stolas1777]

Moshe idels books are so over my head. What an awesome guest to have!

[@shogun9450]

Zevi, as one of many perennialist, thank you for continuing your loving intention, that is the thread that holds our goal of unifying humanity, together.

[@SeekersofUnity]

You’re so very welcome. Thank you for doing it together with us.

[@keenanarthur8381]

I think a lot of critics of perennialism use a straw man argument that confuses their notion of forced uniformity or homogenization for the primordial unity underlying and giving rise to plurality that most perennialists I've interacted with actually posit.

[@LoudWaffle]

It's because the actual history of Perennialism as a movement in academia has been filled to the brim with those pitfalls of forced uniformity and homogenization. Dr. Sledge on the channel Esoterica has a great lecture-style video on this "dark side" of Perennialism, that I think is very worth watching. As a self-proclaimed Perennialist myself, I think that those who adopt the label have to accept that these are not mere strawmans, but legitimate criticisms rooted in history. However, we can learn from them and not make the same mistakes. On that note I do think Idel and Sledge and all the many other academics who look down on Perennialism make the mistake of concluding that it is not possible for a Perennialism to exist or continue to grow in such a way that it does not include these methodological flaws.

[@keenanarthur8381]

@@LoudWaffle I saw that video, I thought it was a biased and inaccurate presentation of the topic.

[@Christianity_and_Perennialism]

Unfortunately I encounter nothing but straw man arguments, in particular claims that we are seeking syncretism or a one world religion. It is very difficult for someone viewing the world in dualistic terms to view things holistically without assuming homogeneity.

[@scottkunghadrengsen2604]

Perhaps "Totality" would be a better term then "Oneness" or "Unity". The latter 2 always seem to imply a reductive generalism in the minds of the anti-perennialists.

[@purpledevilr7463]

He’s more critiquing people and their actions rather than the idea of perennialism itself.

[@hilleyify]

Zevi can you please go back to your monologue videos It’s been a long time since you dropped one of those I miss them

[@SeekersofUnity]

They’ll be back :)

[@JeffWildZug]

@seekersofunity - thanks for this interview. Very enlightening. Are you familiar with the work of Edouard Glissant? He is a poet and philosopher, who wrote about “archipelagic thinking” and the need for the “open opacity of irreducible existences,” which allows for diversity to be preserved. This feels like it’s similar to what Idel said in your interview.

[@mattzeigler110]

The man is an academic. He has not had anything but an academic experience. I'm a former atheist who meditated to relax my body after workouts. I suddenly fell into a very deep state. Long story short, I was even skeptical even then, but proceeded to have far deeper experiences that killed the atheist nonsense completely. This question should not be even asked of a man like this. He's unqualified to answer it. Anyone who's had the "experience" will confirm that there is but one truth, & the religions that sprung up from IT were all corrupted by Kings, Queens, Emperors, Governments, those within the religions themselves who wanted power but weren't religious or spiritual at all. Look at the horrific "Trump-Evangelicals" and how their warped version of Christianity where Trumps the new messiah! The professor says no perennialists agree with each other? Unlike Jews Christians or Muslims? 😂 Or how about Physicists, there's no competing theories? Of course for many reasons there'd be different interpretations of a single spiritual experience brought back to the human body and interpreted by the individuals brain.

[@miguelatkinson]

So I have question you said you where a former atheist but you had a deep "spiritual" experience which transformed you but in no way did you consider the your experience could have been explained by other mean as mental phenomenon or atleast considered the possibility of the experience being false this experience you talk does happen to some non-religious people but didn't entirely change there core beliefs there perspectives where definitely change but still the same well it seems from your experience it made you put aside as you call "atheists nonesense" in your own words by the way

[@mattzeigler110]

@@miguelatkinson by all means, tell me exactly what I experienced. Because you've made a few statements that would imply you know what I experienced, so by all means, please tell me exactly what I experienced. If you can't, well, we'll just chalk up your comment to being more of that "atheist nonsense". Remember, no excuses, I want it exactly, or I'm afraid I've just proven you a liar in your reply to my comment.

[@diegobinelli59]

Exactly. Academy cannot explain "mystic", or rather exoteric things but from the point of view of "reason", i.e. a prophane point.

[@tylerdavis520]

@@mattzeigler110 may I ask what exactly you experienced? And if you were following a certain particular method of meditation?

[@luffyd.monkey7171]

Interesting perspective. I personally think that it is telling that he regards Jung and Eliade as representative of perennialism. I am less familiar with Corbin, but Guenon had a strident critique of Jung's elevation of the unconscious to the domain of what he felt should more rightly be deemed the "superconscious". Eliade was an admitted atheist and crypto-fascist, and in my opinion shouldn't be considered a perennialist of any stripe.

[@kirkminor2434]

I am glad I saw this. He was on the list to read, and now he is not! How could you be this intelligent and be this lost?

[@roselotusmystic]

It would have been interesting to query Moshe Idel about the Eastern 'Lotus' traditions of Hinduism, Buddhism and TAOism 😎

[@sams88888]

Being a Mahayana Buddhist & a Perrenialist, i take his points & in a way characteristic to my own understandings, i simultaneously agree & disagree & have thoughts that couldn't be categorized either way. Very interesting conversation, i appreciate both of you, keep up the good work 🙏

[@eduardosalvatti457]

União Crislã!

[@roselotusmystic]

I commend & applaude ThePushBack . . . Zevi 🙏 So . . . WhyNot? TransDual . . . TransClusive . . . Paradoxical . . . PluralUnity🙏

[@ericalves5514]

and what about a thesis, i'm gonna call here now "absolute singularity" of interpretation and practioces of religion, experience, i mean, not only the perenialists are wrong, but anso those who only see the "oficial" side of religious experience, without taking on acount this absolute diversity in individual perspectives on each mithology since ever, so every time one tell a sacred storye, at tha same time, recreates an absolute unique experience, so not only the perenialism is now a lie, but maybe the entire categorization of religions per se is a lie, i mean the is no "jew" or "cristian" beliaves, u can have practices, but everyone does and interpret them very unically ... so... there is no esssece of a religion, just diferences ina Deleuzian way (sorry my forein english, hope i ve made myself clear).

[@roselotusmystic]

Same OLD . . . 🥲 'perennialism' VERSUS 'constructivism' DeBait 🙏