The Problem With Power Levels In EDH | Salubrious Snail MTG React | EDH Discussion

[@Erik_Sjostrom]

This is the reason why I don’t play edh as much anymore because when I do my game winning combo, my opponents are like ”well gg, I don’t even have a wincon”

[@darkma1ice]

So he only had lands and a commander that couldn’t attack eh?

[@GrayVMhan]

​@@darkma1ice Pretty sure they meant that they have no viable intended wincon, and I think you understood that as well

[@mibbzx1493]

If you win with Infinites, you taking the easy route. If somebody is new and still-learning their built together decks they don’t know their lines yet, you as the more experienced player have to match their experience. Pub stomping and trying to flex an infinite wincon against a new player is not fair to their learning process. they have to figure out what they like first, and your wincons can be dependent on what cards they like. It can be pure beatdown, life loss, going wide with tokens, treasures ect. They have to understand what their deck does more by playing it or different styles before you ask somebody straight out of a precon what their wincon is if they havent even gotten to play/test it yet.

[@0urher0nik0]

Tell them to git gud

[@delanee]

@mibbzx1493 you just invented that argument your rebuttal was directed towards in your head? Literally nobody here was talking about pubstomping new players or even winning with infinites?

[@timgalivan2846]

This scared the heck outif me when I started playing commander because I always thought the point was to try to win and didn't understand this whole "unwritten rule" culture. The people at my card shop told me not to worry about that and showed me their land destruction decks etc. They said basically just switch decks if you win and don't spam a deck all night if no one at the table can beat it and you'll be fine

[@curtisfarley6558]

For real. I came from tournament magic and picked up commander during covid. Deck building changes were a challenge at first, but I discovered the nuances of the format relatively early, and started having lots of success at my lgs. I was so c9fused by the mass of casuals that complained everything anyone played anything good lol.

[@Cybertech134]

Common mistake usually committed by those who think commander is approached like a 1v1 format. You always thought the point was to try to win, but it isn't. The goal is to socialize and have fun with the other people in your pod. If you want a format where the goal is to win, cEDH is for you.

[@timgalivan2846]

@Cybertech134 you're thinking of role-playing games. I assume you just play with a precon then, if you really believe that's true.

[@Cybertech134]

@@timgalivan2846 No, I'm talking about commander as the casual format that it is. I have 17 different decks, all constructed, but by all means continue to speak out of your ass.

[@timgalivan2846]

@Cybertech134 how many friendship points do you play to? Or do you use life totals and you're the one talking out of YOUR ass?

[@PensFan96]

The sole biggest problem with power level discussions that is never talked about is PLAYER SKILL. Your skill, your opponent's skill, everybody has different skill levels. The "Powerful" deck in the hand of a less experienced player is not at all the same as that deck in the hands of a grizzled veteran of 10+ years.

[@W4llh4k]

Yeah, but that can't be quickly given out, as we lack a wau to track ourselves. The most we can do is inference from the deck presentation, good info=good player. Bad info=bad player looking to pubstomp.

[@PensFan96]

@@W4llh4k Which is why there will never never be a true consensus on any of these internet discussions; they are all founded under the impression that everyone is exactly the same skill level and based in hypotheticals around a malicious strawman "pubstomper" Realistically, if you go to a store to play with strangers or a group that you are unfamiliar with, do as the Roman's do. If they are uber casual precons only, do that. If you get stomped at a tougher table, get gud. That's all there is to it.

[@W4llh4k]

@@PensFan96 I mean it in the sense, that you cand sus put ppl who will provide info poorly from the get-go, and the honest ppl will be forward with their wincons. An easy way I do is the pick 3 from your deck, and present it. Most ppl arent getting jumped by that, but a pubstomper is gonna lack in that moment. I'm not blaming the ppl that like low or high power, I got decks across the spectrum, but I wanna enfasize that scrutiny could be more effective, than expectancy at getting the powerlevels matched.

[@stewat8]

My playgroup (about 14 guys) have gravitated more toward Cedh for many reasons, and this scenario came up in one of our games. A newer guy was playing my WUBRG Sisay deck, and I was on my Arcum Daggsom list. He has seen me play the deck numerous times, and even when he had a win on table he just wasn't able to see the line while activating. It gave me two turns to come back and win with a deck that is mostly a meme. Power level should be a conversation of skill and consistency, not how generically power each card in the deck is

[@PensFan96]

@@W4llh4k Bad information does not immediately make anyone a pubstomper. If you receive bad info that means there was a miscommunication. Example: I say Food Chain is in my deck, maybe the person that I'm playing doesn't even know what Food Chain does. Reads it, and after a few seconds goes "cool". If I as the Food Chain player do not have the communication skills to read the social que that the player across from me might not understand the purpose of Food Chain in a deck; that does not give anyone the green light to label the Food Chain player as a pubstomper. Communication soft-skills as a prerequisite to play a card game notorious for attracting introverted people is dumb and it is unreasonable to expect things to go perfect the first try. If you go into a store, play it out even if you don't know what table you are playing into outside of "casual" tune accordingly for the next game. Maybe that means the table isn't right for you.

[@rosecooldude1024]

I got the cool miku harmonize art is why

[@the_knut]

@@rosecooldude1024 100%

[@ThaCardSlinga]

I play cedh almost exclusively after playing edh since 2002/2003. One of the reasons why is because of the lack of consensus on power level. While cedh has its own issues, Not having to worry about power level and those table "feel bads" that result from this broken conversation pushed me in this direction.

[@BosSoxFan15]

The only time I play edh anymore is when I'm hanging out with friends and in those instances I think of edh more as a board game and I don't care who wins. I get that itch from competitive 1v1 magic. I've stopped playing edh (and building a lot of decks for it) at lgs and such because there's to much effort that has to go into starting a game for it to be worth it anymore discussing power levels, politics, and the rule zero conversation. Its just not worth it. 1v1 is so much simpler. We both sit down we know the goal is to beat the other person and whatever needs to be done in the game to win is fair game and I like it that way. I don't need some dude at my table that I don't know whining to me about how they get blown out by another Farewell.

[@Aaron-l3l6g]

What you don't like having to get a 3/4ths vote just so you can sit at the "cool kids" table?

[@thebigsquig]

Yeah I’ve checked out of commander for mostly the same issues too. I’d much rather just 1v1 60 card these days

[@diabeticmonkey]

@@thebigsquig Same. Been playing a lot of legacy, modern, premodern, and vintage on Cockatrice as of late. The prevalence of EDH put 60 card back into perspective for me.

[@Harakanis]

I love this video, it shows the reasoning behind my shorikai deck, it's probably a 7 or 8 in power level, but i don't run any real win con other than a approach of the second sun. The whole point of the deck is to be full of interaction (and draw) to be the fun police at the table, i play with friends that tend to run 0 interaction, both as removal and as protection from their cards and combos, the point of the deck is to force them to play pess of a solitaire style of deck and to consider what others at the table might be doing more. It still gets me to be arch enemy most of the time (i am the fun police after all) but over time i'm starting to see a lot more removal, counterspells, interaction etc... That makes the games overall more enjoyable, because it's not just about tapping out every turn, curving out and playing a combo that wipes the table.

[@diegoperezsommariva2509]

You actually teaching them a lessom

[@fulgurobaboon1321]

"7 or 8" means mana crypts and jeweled lotus

[@Kodaxor]

@@fulgurobaboon1321 If you're running those you're playing cEDH bro

[@fulgurobaboon1321]

@@Kodaxor No you're playing CEDH when you run an optimal strategy. If your deck is gruul trample commander damages, it doesn't matter the quality of cards you put in your deck, it will be a 7 at max

[@Kodaxor]

@@fulgurobaboon1321 Power level has little to do with your "optimal strategy" aside from how long it takes you to win the game with that strategy. In my view, speed is what makes a deck higher power level and shit like mana crypt is the highest echelon of what makes a deck fast. With the right deck and commander I could see a gruul commander damage deck winning by turn 4 or 5 with tools like mana crypt to make it happen.

[@Tater2018]

One of my biggest problems with commander games is when someone does a 30-minute turn and still doesn't win. Like, I do not want to do that again next turn, win, and let's go to game 2.

[@brendans1983]

Sounds like sitting opposite every precon these days...

[@Marlax-101]

i keep thinking about bringing chess timers to games. every turn you start the timer and if you run out of time you loose. yeah you can infinite combo but how many times can you go through your triggers and how much time do you want to use to make those triggers. so it kind of stops infinite combo decks aswell because if you have lets say an infinite mana combo using 3 cards, lets say you have 1 second per card trigger then you are using 3 or 4 seconds per combo, you could only do 10-15 uses of the combo before you used a full minute of time and then whatever combo you want to add on top of that so you better know exactly how much mana ect you want to make.

[@vittoriosavian9964]

​@@Marlax-101 it can be fun if everyone is on board with it, but otherwhise its a bad decision. It translate to: "if you dont play like i want you to, you dont get to play the game". Which isnt that bad if this effect its something removable ( hardstax pieces ), but a rule isnt something that you can interact with. I mean, if people takes 30 minutes to play a turn because they are a newbie, just help them out. If it happens because fortune isnt on their side and they fumble and dont find the out, it just happens. That's all

[@Marlax-101]

@@vittoriosavian9964 would just depend 30 min clocks with 4 people is still 2 hours. doesnt mean you cant agree to stop clocks for questions

[@quadeflanders7905]

I got a defense prepared for Harmonize. It's a simple and affordable(mana wise) piece of burst draw that puts you up 2 cards. Green has no problem sparing 4 mana, and other forms of green draw, while more powerful, are usually reliant on having creatures. In the event your hand is disrupted or your board is wiped, most good green draw stops working properly. So Harmonize can act as a piece of draw that gets you the cards you need to turn your better cards online.

[@eLECHtricity]

I play harmonize type effects in my power level 7's because harmonize provides a high level of resilience. It requires no other pieces to function, is phenomenal after a board wipe, and helps dig for answers when you have an opponent who will win if they untap uninterrupted. You don't need other cards in hand and its very mana efficient at 1.33 mana per card. I also play recurring draw effects like beast whisperer or the great henge or guardian project, but flexibility is very important, and in a really grindy game where everyone has attritted out (due to the preponderance of removal I play) a harmonize is a much better topdeck than something like a great henge with no creatures in hand or in play. A three to four mana draw three is much more powerful than people give credit because as you've stated, people don't play enough interaction. When there is ample interaction in a game, access to more cards is key. Not to mention harmonize effects are extremely powerful when paired with recursion, another thing people don't play enough of.

[@Queuexdodge]

in an untrusted enviroment, you need targeted removal specifically for these absurd value engines that revolve around the commander. in battlecruiser days you couldn't justify the card disadvantage on a card thats just going to come back. but now, you need to shut down your opponents commander.

[@DerpHerper]

Big agree about Great Henge and cards like this. I ask about staples and people think I'm crazy but honestly a crackback from Teferi's Protection or one good Jeska's Will turn is enough to win certain games.

[@LibertyMonk]

I'm with him about Great Henge, but I also think Sol Ring should be right there with it.

[@The_medicine_frog]

Why do people want to know about all the cards in people edh decks exactly?

[@vittoriosavian9964]

The point is: having a One Ring in the deck doesnt make your deck a 10. Its still the same deck, but 1/15 games it can pop off. That is because Power level isnt only about eqch card power, but consistency as well. If someone won with a big staple with a bad deck, it means that they had the nut game out of a hundred, not that they are a 8 at least. Power level scale is useless

[@c.r.bledsoe9322]

I'll advocate for harmonize, it's 4 mana for 3 cards ALWAYS. it is a rare example of green card draw where it's floor and ceiling are always the same so it's very consistent. It's not as explosive as some other draw options, but most of greens best draw is entirely dependent on board state or power of creatures or the ability to cast creatures. These would all fall into the "conversion" category snail was talking about. Paying 4 mana to draw 3 is never gonna feel bad, where as shamanic revelation on an empty board is terrible.

[@tspin5642]

I don’t do power level I do what turn your deck wins on. My decks win on turn 7-15 and that’s the way I like it. Build around sub optimal strategies like the stack alone samurai or a mono white card draw deck

[@robertomacetti7069]

as a personal story to provide further proof, i made a gruul control deck (inspired by a salubrious snail video, i love his content) and is not like it's almost cedh, far from it, but given that interacting is the main gameplan is fairly loaded with removal and protection my pod can't keep up, i'm baffled, their decks can do way crazier shit but they run such a low amount of protection/removal that they cannot stop me from stopping them, like, ever and we usually do a 5 players commander game, i still struggle to believe that such a meme idea as gruul control can be totally chill in a 4v1 so uh, yeah guys, interaction is REALLY important, run more of it

[@guyatanosavia8487]

@robertomacetti7069 I mean tbf, that Erinis deck is pretty damn strong

[@robertomacetti7069]

@@guyatanosavia8487 indeed but i was not expecting that

[@turtlekappa7141]

It starts with bad deck building and usually ends in politicking.

[@mrwalrus1150]

Harmonize is perfect in my mono green spellslinger deck

[@Havlark]

What turn does your deck win on if it's uninterrupted is always my metric

[@webbofmusic]

Goblins would be a ten then

[@EKennethsanders]

this is a bad metric

[@LilB0pete]

@@EKennethsanders You are super correct, it’s definitely important to know, but a deck that has a slight chance to win on turn 3-4 is not as powerful as one that can reliably stomp on 6 or 7.

[@franslair2199]

Idiotic metric. Explain cedh stax decks.

[@PALIGames]

Power level is the most irrelevant scale for decks these days. To many good cards now.

[@uhmatcha1167]

Fr, the average cmc is going down, more and more busted cards are being printed. Powercreep at it's finest. Still fun tho

[@Uri6060]

True, so often on MTGO people salt out about 1 or 2 cards. And sometimes I just have to say like "The decks weak, just that one card is really ruff for us it is what it is" And thats sorta why I tend to play more blue based decks, as you can counter anything. No need to worry about needing a disenchant, and I dont blame people for throwing in a cathars crusade, or whatevs like ya wanna play with fun stuff and if thats what is fun for you and how u wanna win with ur saprolings or whatevs, like fair! Its super answerable, and thats on us

[@kingkettle2748]

So I just got into commander and built my first deck now I as a background play modern and standard so I am geared to be more competitive as far as mind set but wanted to learn commander as the social feature so far it’s gone well but in the few games I have played I noticed some of the complaints made about how oh the deck just went off and we didn’t have a chance but when I asked like did any one have interaction or removal I was the only person who factored that into my deck and I was stunned because just coming from the formats I am used to playing having interaction is mandatory so why it’s almost considered a taboo or even wrong when it’s a big part of the game I don’t seem to understand?

[@Aaron-l3l6g]

Because Commander players are whiney babies who get in their feelings when you play any sort of meaningful interaction. I'd get out of Commander now while you can as it only gets worse from here.

[@The_medicine_frog]

I just like to purposefully piss off people who act like this, dont see why everyone needs to whine and complain about everything in this game. Whay cant more people have the mentality to not complain when you counter or blow up something they play, or not complain too much when you play a strong card?

[@curtisfarley6558]

We've been having this power level conversation for almost a decade. If commander isn't your first format, you will understand that these people don't care about magic; they got drawn into mtg for every reason, but playing a competitive card game

[@kevingarlick4617]

A lot of my decks are pure garbage with some random good shit like one ring, great henge, tef pro, etc. Its hard to call my garbage dinosaur deck with harmonize in it a 5 when it also has a mana crypt

[@franslair2199]

Yeah shit like this is ruining commander. You stuff busted cards into every single deck you play and win off of them.

[@kevingarlick4617]

@franslair2199 lmao I own like 4 good cards total bud I lose far more than anyone else in my play group

[@oOOoOphidian]

I think for most tables your way of building decks is the appropriate way to include powerful staples. They help your jank churn. I prefer to play consistent and coherent decks, so if I also include those cards my decks will end up being way too strong for average tables. I think either way to play is great (or even just going for cedh) and it's all about finding the right tables and avoiding saltlords.

[@xaxscratchxax926]

The players at my LGS don't run enough removal. I think I bring it up to someone once a week that they should consider more removal. A new guy came in 3 weeks ago and I saw him "controlling" the game with many pieces of removal and card draw...instantly new he was the problem. People just don't get it.

[@JacktheDoctor]

I think a good template is ~15 ramp, ~15 interaction (removal, counterspells, hate bears), ~12 card draw, ~37 lands, and the commander. This leaves ~20 cards for the main strategy and many cards within these categories can be synergistic themselves and overlap (Llanowar Elves is an elf and ramp, Nykthos is a land and ramp, Blackmarket Connections is ramp and card draw, etc) which increase the amount of dedicated cards for the deck. Obviously these ratios all vary, in CEDH you can run less lands cause you have a lower curve and you want more card draw/tutors, in landfall you want 41 lands or so, in elves you have like 30 ramps pieces, in a deck with a commander card draw engine (so many nowadays) you can run less card draw.

[@applegoblinjeans]

i have been playing pearl-ear, imperial advisor and it's been good both in casual and in cedh. in a couple of games, i figured i needed more single target removal and ways to prevent creatures from attacking me or making it harder to hit with multiple creatures. i went with the 10 card rule. 10 ramp, 10 single removal, 10 draw, and 3 board wipes. this has been helpful for me and the rest is stuff that would help with certain situations like cards that give you no hand size, cards that exile cards from grave, cards that bring back from grave to the deck, a win con combo +1 min, and your commander engine cards. have about 36 lands if green is in it and 37-38 lands without green.

[@ponfarru]

My pod doesn't have power level numbers. They just figure out that there are 3 or less turn kill decks that players scoop on.

[@923smb]

I like to often take my decks and think about what they look like at Low Mid and High power respectively. part of what I have come too is that certain "staples" really do crank up power level on certain decks some of those cards are so warping that it just makes your deck go from Mid to High or from Low to Medium-High due to just that one card. One action I take is I will slow down some of my interaction and ramp to be purposely a turn or two slower, in green decks these means less 1 mana dorks and less or none of the three visits nature lore type cards, same is said about interaction instead of doing "free" or 1 mana/ 2 mana counterspells I will instead opt for the more interesting conditional 2 mana or 3 mana cancel variants. for Low and Mid specifically I will build more around a Theme or Mechanic that I like that may not have what it takes to be High power like Mutate and specifically exclude the easy things like infect in order to give myself a deck building challenge while also encouraging people to play more wacky and less used cards. Besides if I built each deck to have the High power staples then games feel too much like the same thing.

[@davidmitchell621]

A staple card's ability to significantly push the power level of deck only really shows in games were you actually get that card. I think what's more relevant to the strength of a deck is consistency such as having multiple copies of a strong effect or having multiple tutors to always get what you need. Another way of looking at consistency is how does the deck win with key cards and how consistently can you make that gameplan happen. To my knowledge, cEDH decks typically run one main combo and a couple alternate combos as they're main gameplan and invest in firing off that main combo as quickly and efficiently as possible while still protecting their combo and having ways to stop opposing combos. If a deck is only occasionally significantly stronger cause of a couple staples, it isn't consistent enough to truly be a higher power. A key example is Sol Ring, which many decks run as extremely efficient ramp (and affordable $ wise). Turn 1 Sol Ring immediately puts that player significantly ahead for that game but that player isn't likely to get that head start in their next 5 games thus it doesn't really boost the power level of the deck that significantly by itself

[@CrisMW98]

Coming from competitive formats (pioneer and standard) seeing people run so few removal really shocked me. Ok the dynamics and economy of a 4 players game are different, but you still really wish you had that spot removal for when that 20/20 is coming at you or that combo piece is about to go off.

[@GorillerViller]

Feel like this doesn't really take budget into account. Like the hardened scales vs the mana dork with the +1/+1 counters. The difference between these 2 cards is like 15 bucks. Wich is why I always say don't set meaningless powerlevel limits that noone really follows anyway. Make rules like "no infinites" for your group and then set a budget limit. That will help you have good games WAY more then arguing wether a deck is a 7 or an 8.

[@joedoe7572]

YES

[@CuteLittleLily]

I had couple games where i miss land, have no creature. and cant do much and have open board. I become a counterspell, and boardwide machine cause thats the only card i got sadly. So 2 other player protect me for the sake of that removal against the strongest PL 8 deck. (We are at pl 6-7). Did i win? No. But it was fun trying to be kingmaker and just gatekeeping the high PL deck to win. And everyone have a great time where high level player need to play smart, and the other teamup and make alliance. What matter is the process of how the games goes. Not the winning part

[@silentcalling]

Pre-cons should be further down the number scale than they are. Putting them at a 5 is how we got to "everything is a 7." The average precon should be a 2-4, decks like Eldrazi or Slivers or upgraded precons at 5-6, optimized and/or homebrews at 7+. Player skill, consistency of win, proportion of interaction, and resource generation are all important factors to calculate when determining how good a deck is.

[@brendans1983]

U obviously haven't been around the game long. Precon decks from 5 years ago are nothing like precons from the last year or 2. You even point this out in your own comment. Odd comment.

[@silentcalling]

@@brendans1983 I've been playing since 2010, but thanks anyhow. I made a more specific breakdown after I stated where pre-cons should be, with the understanding that not all pre-cons are made equal. What's odd is how you can imply I'm wrong, while simultaneously agreeing with my point. Odd reply.

[@brendans1983]

@@silentcalling if you have been playing since 2010, then you should know that trying to explain power levels is a pointless topic, and anyone with experience within the game actually won't go down that rabbit hole. Because noone with skill and ezperience actually cares about it.

[@brendans1983]

@@silentcalling your initial comment was 3 sentences. Each one contradicted the next. I never agreed with you. I clarified your 3rd sentence. Without the 2 before it, it makes sense.

[@silentcalling]

@@brendans1983 What is the first factor I list in my statement for assessing deck strength? The very first one? *Player skill*. Because a cracked out Krenko deck in the hands of a newbie is nowhere near as scary as the Hakbal precon in the hands of the friend that brought them into the store. Power level *does* matter, it just seems arbitrary and pointless because most of the time we're A: talking relative to different groups, and B: not factoring in the player piloting the deck. My statement doesn't contradict itself at all. You just apparently lack the comprehension necessary to understand.

[@olivermeloche2042]

Damn is my one of my favorite removal pieces as well, though the one I love the most is shriekmaw/ignot chewer/foundation breaker as they are really easy to include synergy with, and naturally draw cards with creatures already played in alot of black/green decks.

[@Blackfox13x]

I don't know if it's quite the power seven but my green agro deck loves it to refill my hand after playing out multiple cheap spells early

[@PortalMasterStudios]

For my group, low or mid power means no infinite combos (unless it's like 5 cards) no crazy cards piece wise (no $100 cards or fast mana outside of sol ring) and the ability to run a commander that isn't always top tier. Still tons of interaction and fast decks but games usually go 15-25 rounds

[@brendans1983]

See, both your bracketed comments are the EXACT reason this format is so hard to enjoy. Your group? Meaning you can't play a game outside of your group unless those players adhere to your strange rules? 'Unless its like 5 cards.'? Exactly 5, or like 5? Confusing. 'No $100 cards'? So what if you have a card that spikes through popular demand, u have to take it out of your deck? What if you pull a fancy version of a card already in your deck, and it's worth more than $100? And why does Sol Ring get a free pass? 15-25 turns? As someone not from 'your group', with all your fractured rules, that sounds absolutely miserable. I am glad your group enjoys your system, but you must understand that taking that philosophy into an LGS is bound to create issues for you.

[@MEGATR000N]

@@brendans1983 well 5 cards could be more of an idea instead of a rule, dont run niv in the command zone and tandem lookout in the 99 if you want to actually play the game and not just get killed first by everyone else. i play elenda with a couple combos in it and it still gets beaten easily win im focused or have a couple pieces removed and am out of gas its not low power but its still not close to a niv type combo, get what a mean, however about pricing, I 100% agree the price of a card many times has nothing to do with its power level and many times has more to do with how many times wizard's have printed it, which at the end of the day its just card board so proxying it always on the table imo

[@eggslad]

​@@brendans1983go ahead bro, say which card it was that spiked over 100

[@akashiya221]

I care a lot about the art in my cards so I end up including stuff like smothering tithe since a lot of those high power cards have been getting alternate arts. it also leads me to using cards like harmonize and diabolic tutor given they have secret lairs

[@maeevans4773]

secret partners is also a great way to leverage the power gap of a play group! draw names from a hat, and your goal becomes making sure *that* person wins.

[@Hapkins-le6xf]

At the opening, you ask when the last time we played low power and you mention precons. Do wotc even make low power precons anymore? The last precon I bought was explorers of the deep from ixalon. I can't call that deck low power and with a very small investment becomes high power very easily. I think the only way to play low power these days reliably is pauper commander.

[@RyuichiShinomori]

That Precon is pretty midrange to be fair, it really gets out of hand and has some wild value in its cards and pieces.

[@juter1122]

They printed an infinite mana combo in the horrors precon

[@V2ULTRAKill]

I think you have weird ideas of whats high power because you've never seen real high power to cedh ranged lists in action Yes the BEST precons hit low power, and can hit mid power with upgrades Most are atill battlecruiser lists

[@khub5660]

The precons outside of the Merfolk from Ixalan are low power. They're super clunky and have only a tiny bit of synergy.

[@LibertyMonk]

The thing about the power level scale is that it starts at "technically a deck, but literally can't win" and only hit "precon" a third of the way up the scale. There are some really powerful precons, but they're still publishing precons that are three quarter decks stapled together and a bunch of janky "staples" that don't belong.

[@Guru4hire]

I consider Harmonize and phyrexian arena to be the target quality of card for card draw to have a deck that will do its thing over a solid 10 turn game of commander. If you want to play about ~30 cards over your 10 turn game you ~12 cards like them (assuming your commander doesn't draw cards). This means you will probably have played 3-4 interaction cards a couple of ramp cards, wiped the board once, popped a tricky card like teferi's protection or some other combat trick to save your butt, hit enough land drops to actually play the game, and advanced your game plan towards the winning step. Maybe you win maybe you don't. Your opponents each disrupted your play once, wiped the board, and advanced the game towards the winning step. To me this is the story of a power level 7 game of commander, which all relies on decks having 10-12 cards that are harmonize or better as in you can credibly tell yourself a story that it draws 3 cards for about 3-4 mana. This is just the foundation to a "Good Deck."

[@alex.sanders]

You are correct, but... You know he's probably not being genuine when asking that, right? And this is only for that sweet comment engagement In less than a minute later the man literally talks about cards that seat on the table for 4 mana and do nothing. Harmonize is 4 mana and draws 3 cards no matter whats happening on the table. You go up 2 cards consistently with it and it's way better in the lategame when you run out of gas than a phyrexian arena. I agree that Guardian Project is a better card overall, but I'd rather draw my harmonize on turn 9 than a guardian project.

[@StoneSourFanBoy]

For me, it comes with waves depending on what is happening in my playgroup : if we welcome new players, I'll build weaker decks (I found a solution to be able to not do this that often after several years), but as soon as a certain number of players brew some high power decks, I'll build something able to compete since the goal is to be able to adapt to the rest of the table. And by building a lot, low and high, budget and pricey, I am now on my way to own decks for every situation. It tooks time and iterations, but I'm able to demonstrate what is a true 7 to new players and show them why there might be a difference with a precon and why I'm not using a specific deck against them. Sharing the knowledge and helping people be better at deckbuilding is a cornerstone of the format and I'm glad to be part of it ! :)

[@connorjensen9699]

last time I played low power was the WH40K precon set, which was also the last time I played MTG. That is also the most common way for me to play MTG. Commander pretty much burnt me out at some point. I'll occasionally hit a draft or modern but that's honestly pretty rare for me at this point.

[@ecirelyk]

just coming back to mtg after a long hiatus, sorry if this is a dumb question but what's wrong with harmonize? is draw 3 for 4 mana too weak now?

[@kisukebomb3750]

If I had to say what I think it is, it doesn't impact the board at all. There's so much powerful stuff going on that burning a turn to draw cards without doing anything at all on board is a good way to get yourself knocked out of the game.

[@ecirelyk]

@@kisukebomb3750 thank you, any cards you'd recommend subbing harmonize out for?

[@kisukebomb3750]

@@ecirelyk It honestly depends on the deck. In slower pods, I tend more toward incidental draw like Garruk's Uprising if you're going for big creatures for example, or you go big on the draw with something like Greater Good. There's always things like Beast Whisperer or, for one more mana than Harmonize you can get Shamanic Revelation, which scales well. On a similar vein is Riskar's Expertise, which gets you a free spell as well as drawing a bunch. The Great Henge is a monster, but is pretty damn expensive. I'm not saying Harmonize is bad, I still run it in a few decks that want instants and sorceries, or stuff in the yard, It's just that adding a body or giving the bodies you have some other advantage seems to be more impactful now.

[@ecirelyk]

@@kisukebomb3750 appreciate the advice brother ty 🙏

[@kisukebomb3750]

@@ecirelyk no worries at all

[@Arosium]

I love the idea of the self contained (resilient) threats. I play PDH, so there’s not a lot of single card threats, but rather a combination of cards adding up to a victory. Excited to find what I can.

[@105Strike105]

This is why i play cedh only. Play to win and no mucking around with people playing broken cards while others are playing no good cards. The play area is all the same for everuone and everyone is there to play to win so no sobbing when you lose to thassa pracle of breach instant win lines

[@errrzarrr]

Is cEDH a 1v1 format?

[@JerBroChill]

Absolutely! I only play cedh now. I feel like it's the most fair and if someone wins turn 1 it's like ight impressive, gg run it back and you're back playing 3-5 games by the time like a single precon pod is done with their first game. Plus the amount of interaction makes cedh 10x better than any other power level

[@christopherspeck1287]

@@errrzarrr There is a competitive EDH which is played 1v1 called Duel Commander, which is a legit format just with a separate banlist but cEDH is just regular commander but decks are legitimately tuned to be the absolute best they can be, it’s not a different format at all, merely just a different mindset. Turn 0 wins are legitimate and potentially consistent threats, there isn’t really the mindset of politic-ing for small favours or anything like that or dawdly 11 mana win cons that might work 2/10 times but flop the other 8. But the offset to it is expectations are set, feelsbads based on power level don’t really exist and it’s budget because any cEDH group worth it’s salt will be more than happy to play using proxies.

[@Cybertech134]

But at least you understand that cEDH is the place for all this "git gud" tryharding sweatlord mentality. Commander is all about having fun and cultivating fun for others around you, not a 1v1 format with 4 people.

[@quintainsmith4597]

For me playing low power level games there is less removal, even less board wipes, and commander damage is a viable strategy. Precons are used a lot

[@jrandula]

I never called it power level myself. From start I always used term: Interaction rank. Aka how much interactivity is your deck known for. From land destruction, to board wipes to targeted removal. To good old fashioned: Nope.dek(Counters upon counters). That way our group quickly adjusted and decks evolved from simple me decks to complex: Yeah I think I can do something almost every time something happens.

[@swordsaint01]

Our play group has been promoting $100 commander games. It's seems like a natural way of balancing gaming and also makes deck brewing a lot more and more creative. People are still mostly allowed to make the game they want, as long as it sticks to the budget. Even the fluctuating prices get us excited/stressed when there's an increase or decrease of a card's price.

[@kargnak]

Power level doesn't matter. If you notice that your win ratio exceeds well over 1/4 then just be gracious enough to throw a hand here or there so others get to have fun too. It's a social game more akin to DnD where it's just good manners to let others have a turn even if you have all the answers. In both games you can min-max to a point where no one else at the table matters, so don't do it! In games where a competitive mindset is welcome... it still doesn't matter! CEDH players don't have power level discussions.

[@RyuichiShinomori]

SERIOUSLY, I honestly don't need to win every game, too many times its people bringing their stompy mentality to a game where its usually just a bunch of friends trying to throw spells at eachother and giggle at jank. I will always throw a hand if a good natured player is doing something really fun. The worst people to play with IMO are those who claim they are trying to enhance the game forward and end it quickly, while actively tamping down on their opponents and focusing way more on winning themselves than on making the game faster.

[@kevingarlick4617]

That's what I do, I just retire the whole deck when it gets too strong. Rip muldrotha, krenko, and queza

[@luiken3]

I'm building Averna, the Chaos Bloom as a Maze's End payoff deck. So lots of Cascade snd fishing for gates. I'm hopeful this ends up as a power level 7. Currently I have Harmonize & Concentrate in the deck as a draw 3 I can rip for free as a cascade cast from some of the bigger cascade cards. Idk, I'd love your thoughts. I can drop a list if you want to see it.

[@dnguyenscholar]

I play a lot of Harmonize because although it has undoubtedly been powercrept, it has a high floor in that it will draw me three cards no matter what. Compared to the other green card draw options like The Great Henge, Beast Whisperer, Rishkar's Expertise, etc., there are times when you need to draw into those creatures in order for them to be effective. While they do shine more often, Harmonize is one of those "unsung hero" type of cards because of how unflashy it is and yet, how effective a straight up draw three is too. Same thing goes for the other efficient draw options like Sign in Blood, Night's Whisper, Chart a Course, etc as they let you go a couple cards up while being low costed enough to be able to do other stuff.

[@diegoperezsommariva2509]

A shoutout to Cube as a format

[@EdHGuru]

Power levels are bull shit these days run more interactive spells or quit belly aching about getting farewelled with your pants down or with bde swinging the only thing separating cedh from casual is free spells and thoracle id say fast mana but that’s less frowned upon unless your aiming with budget in mind it is what it is and the onus is on everyone to be good sports about when you got em or get got and this coming from someone who has a list of cards I react viscerally to.

[@papernes]

This reminds of a post I saw where the guy said his Grand Arbiter deck was a "7" and on a cursory glance I see Azorius Locket, Azorius Guildgate, and Counterlash 💀💀

[@ekolimitsLIVE]

Not so much lowering power level, but definitely lowering complexity of triggers. I’ve slowly started taking out “if this then that” style cards because of missed triggers way too complicated chains and just forever turns. It’s not fun to pilot and it’s not fun to stare at.

[@Shelle0]

My friends and i (total 4 players) made a 150 euro edh (pure) tribal challenge using moxfield as the card price balancing platform with a creation window of a month incl delivery time. We mostly play cedh/ close to cedh level decks

[@Tehstampede]

Great points, playing more interaction is almost always good advice. That being said, a game where everyone's deck is mostly interaction with a few win con pieces is just miserable to play through. Finding the middle ground is a challenge.

[@zodiacsaint3959]

Another thing to mention, incorporating removal that is of a ‘permanent’ type (ie: caustic caterpillar, voracious varmint, scrapshooter) allows for versatility for the inexperienced player and may actually be optimal in some decks. Don’t know when something should be removed? Want to develop your board state instead of trading resources? Want to have a threat for politic-ing? Slap your removal on the board and move on

[@austinchuilli3652]

Power level issues boils down to factors involving players. Player matters a person that has more experience will pilot a deck better on average because they can find the synergy pieces, recognize threats, asset the king pins (your threats), process timing etc. Player matters also in how they play a primary combo player will play a combo deck better than a voltron primary player on average (there are exceptions to this but on average). Decisions and interpretation of rule zero discussions how the rule zero conversation goes I've noticed players play decks differently than they would if the discussion went differently; an example of this is I played a game where we agreed not to intentionally infinite combo so Player A held back vito and exquisite blood, then Player C played a flashed in mechanized production on Player B's end step with 17 treasures out winning the game on his own upkeep. This is obviously an extreme example as Player A's deck was clearly built with the interaction in mind but because it in his mind is technically infinite they could not win with it, I argued technically it isn't infinite as we only have a finite amount of health the whole point of a combo is to win on the spot what's the difference between exquisite vito combo and building enough mana to cast a torment of hailfire to kill each player. The point is the discussion can hold decks back or people interpret the discussion differently.

[@Shadow1patin]

I'm a tournament player (not grinder just play at Modern FNM and some larger local events). I hate commander because of this discussion right here. I know how to build and play a high power deck. My commander deck is arguably a 7 or 8 that used to be a 9 (thanks power creep). People who know how to play a good deck beat me all the time but the rest struggle to understand that they build crap decks. It creates wildly varied experiences for me and others. At least in a tournament my opponent knows I'm playing to win and won't take it badly.

[@Cybertech134]

Learning how not to be a "tournament player" in a casual format is a skill you can cultivate.

[@thenumbertrenton]

Most of my decks revolve around spot removal since itll remove what is most necessary without getting targeted too much. That and half my decks are all about tokens so I don't want to wipe my board!

[@KRSorba]

I recently built a Glissa Sunslayer control deck for $25. I wouldn't classify it as super high-powered, but it's pretty tuned. I don't think setting your budget low automatically makes decks low-powered.

[@amigraber6062]

On harmoize: i *think* i mostly play sevens. I've built some decks recently but an older deck is an upgraded precon. I've got harmonize in it because there were other cards to cut. Next time i get some better cards I'll cut the harmonize

[@JLStroupe]

Generally feel like most precons only have 15-20 cards worth keeping for a match of commander at the local card shop.

[@LilB0pete]

I only play at my LGS with a small group of casuals, and I intentionally keep stuff in the 4-7 range, running as much “interaction” as is meta is just not fun. I also think that commander has gotten pretty dull for me because it feels like so many staples just plug n play into the decks and it doesn’t feel like there is any variance to peoples decks anymore. Everyone runs 50-70% of the same cards with each commander.

[@MT_LeagueGaming7896]

no one plays interaction bc its easier to race your opponents than keep them in check Example: player 1 gets great henge, 2nd player plays faerie mastermind, 3rd plays smothering tithe- does the 4th player spend his turn playing 1-2 spells to keep the other three in check? It doesnt make sense in game play- 1playing removal vs 3 players accelerating makes no sense- its better to just keep accelerating bc the others are going to find thier win cons first bc all 4th player is doing is removing 1/3 of the problems on his turn.... kind of frustrating from a "fun" standpoint

[@workingandcommenting]

this is wrong, you need to remove a few pieces that will either propell your opponent to their wincon or to give them a massive engine that you cant stop later. Spot removal is for this, you need to remove pieces that are hindering you to win the game and just accelerating vs 3 ppl that can either accelerate faster or more will not always win you the race, you gotta play removal

[@MT_LeagueGaming7896]

@workingandcommenting when? Usually my opponents have built decks that are just too good/powerful for me to win vs everyone in game- I have watched other games, online a d otherwise- every game is literally a treasure producing card drawing orgy that usually can't be stopped. Removal is great... if u draw it before they draw thier interaction... which doesn't happen bc they are drawing multiple cards w one while I'm playing counterspells going down on cards... like I said 1vs 3 doesn't work... its an awful format for me right now...

[@vittoriosavian9964]

​@@MT_LeagueGaming7896 then i play stax and your strategy crumble to pieces because you made a bad deckbuilding decision. Spot removal is a must. But you have to know how to use it

[@jcstaff1007]

Eldridge Cleaver once said “Too much agreement kills a chat”. You refer to a fundamental problem of power levels in EDH towards the beginning and then ignore it, choosing to just agree with Snail’s points and expand on hypotheticals rather than tackle a key issue. That is: power levels are subjective. To one person precons are 4’s to another they’re 7’s. Another is card quality and budget. You and Snail both overlook this fact by just harping on the old adage “run more removal” but overlook that quality matters. Casual players usually use their bulk cards to build decks. Meaning they’ll add cards that are sorcery speed 4 mana kill spells over cheap instant speed versatile interaction bc that’s the only thing they have on hand. That’s part of the reason why “running more interaction” is technically the wrong advice. Because everything nowadays, to quote Crim from MTGoldFish, is an “avengers level threat”. Everything draws cards (like the Great Henge), everything is a must kill, everything is difficult to remove (-the most recent example being Voja having ward 3 and being in a tribe that lets it come down super early, so no one, ESPECIALLY CASUALS, has the mana to actually deal with the problem).

[@themaddhadder4826]

most players have a collection that they can use to trade around and find good removal. everyone wants to pop off but no one wants to watch someone else combo. PLAY INTERACTION. counterspell is less than $1

[@lukaro7074]

Your first point, about power levels being subjective, is true but also irrelevant to the point Snail was trying to make. One person may look at a decklist and call it a seven, the other person may look at the same decklist and call it a four, and that's true, but the deck will still perform the same whether the person talking about it calls it a seven or a four. The label we assign to the deck's power level may be subjective and change, but the decks power, what it's good at and what it's bad at, doesn't. The point snail was trying to make was that, even if all four decks at the table were identical, the actual gameplay will likely still be unbalanced if they are constructed in a way that renders them inconsistent in their gameplan and unable to interact with their opponents in an efficient manner, and that this issue is only exacerbated as decklists get more or less powerful, widening even small power level differences in deckbuilding into massive gulfs in actual gameplay. The rest of your comment... well, I honestly just can't understand if you have an argument you're trying to present. You bring up a bunch of true things, like the fact that a lot of casual pods choose not to run removal because they are building largely from what they have lying around, which does not consist of a lot of highly efficient removal. This is true. You also point out that some cards, particularly rare bombs, have gotten more efficient and harder to answer in recent years in a way that makes snail's model harder to apply to real games. This is also true. These two points are largely unrelated. If a person can't get good removal, chances are they also aren't going to be able to make a deck with a load of big splashy hard-to-answer bombs. So the guy who can only run 4-mana draft common removal spells because that's all he has is naturally going to be at a massive disadvantage compared to the guy who can afford to slam Voja > Great Henge, and probably shouldn't be playing at the same pod. Overall, I agree that "run more removal" is often reductive advice, even if it is often true that casual players, on average should probably run a bit more, but that wasn't the crux of snail's argument. The actual argument was that inconsistent deckbuilding strategies lead to inconsistent decks, which leads to inconsistent and therefore often unbalanced and unfun games. He obviously does think interaction is an important part of giving decks this consistency, but to reduce the entire point he made to just "run more removal" is to ignore the actual crux of his argument. There are genuine problems with this argument, ways in which it falls short of the actual reality of the commander experience, but the general point is good.

[@icysalvoyt2689]

Could not agree more with this. @jcstaff1007

[@jcstaff1007]

@@lukaro7074 To respond to your rebuttal: my point was that BECAUSE players can’t “properly” assess their deck’s power level, bc everything is subjective, it leads to non-games. Where player A, who is piloting a precon, is calling their deck a 7 and joining a random pod where player B, who is piloting an optimized deck with generic powerful staples like Rhystic Study, both think their decks can play together and have a relatively evenly matched game. Both, of course, would be mistaken. The player with a precon, who’s strongest card starts and ends with Harmonize, and the optimized deck player, who’s strongest card is each and every one of them in the deck, are both in the end mistaken. This is the crux of the disparity regarding power levels that plagues the community. There are other factors like deck building skills, focus of the deck, consistency and card quality, but fundamentally it’s that two-four players either are knowingly or unknowingly lying about their deck’s power level that creates these non-games/ unfun experiences for players. My other point is that “running more removal” is insufficient advice for new players. Yes, Snail goes on about how consistency and adding more “glue” to a deck such as card draw and ramp can bring consistency up and therefore bridge the gap between power levels of any two decks. Which is true. But that’s true of improving the deck building quality of any deck. Running more removal omits the aspect of quality. The quality of removal needing to be ideally both efficient, versatile, and have a cheap casting cost. The problem then arises that high quality removal spells tend to be more expensive financially. Casual players, especially those at lower power tables, usually have a budget/limit to the amount of money they pour into a deck. For a lot of players, playing the best removal spells is just unfeasible. Yes, there is an argument you can proxy, but that doesn’t make much of a difference when most players prefer to play with the game pieces they themselves have bought. So, budgetary differences and constraints compound the problem of power levels bc if player A is playing a plethora of removal BUT it’s all super inefficient, unflexible, and expensive mana value spells, and player B is playing every free spell, every expensive One Ring and Rhystic Study value engine, and every new must-kill threat, then the difference in power level is not solved by “running more removal”. In fact it’s worsen bc player A, aka poor little Timmy, spent 6 mana to cast a $0.50 Murder (and his whole turn) to try to kill a Voja and player B casts a zero mana $50 Deflecting Swat, then you can’t just say “run more removal”. To sum up: power levels are currently insufficient to gauge and compare deck’s strengths. There needs to be a better way to accurately identify where a deck lies on the spectrum. Overall card quality is a bigger issue regarding the difference in power levels than the quantity of removal. Lastly I wholeheartedly agree that upping consistency of a deck both solidifies a deck’s power from game to game and also increases its overall power. Both help bridge disparities even if there does happen to be a gap in power levels between any two decks.

[@JohnFromAccounting]

I think voltron strategies are not good, even though they win the game in 1 hit. They require a lot of setup and bank on nobody having removal or boardwipes. And yet EDH players think that a Karlov-Lurrus deck is unreasonably powerful for casual tables.

[@jean-paulbascelli1078]

Interaction is good, however single target interaction since it is a 1 for 1 trade, is a lousy trade economically. Typically it's simply better to "make butter" (create advantage engines that generate value for free for a one time investment) as opposed to loading your deck with answer cards. Too many answer cards and you lose slots for value engine cards. You need a decent balance, however I lean way more on advantage pieces than removal IRL deckbuilding, and I have discovered that playing more advantage cards is better overall than answer cards. Why? Because I think it is simply a superior strategy in a multiplayer game to have more resources from multiple sources instead of answer cards. Yes, you need answer cards so what I do is play cards that have multifunctional uses so they serve as necessary, continuous removal and are either a threat in and of themselves in addition to providing continuous advantage example (silverback elder, aura shards, Toski, etc). This option also alleviates slots, so I have more slots in my deck available for other options. On another note, I also do not think lower power casual edh circles require a large assortment of interaction, assuming most casual edh playgroups don't play fast combination decks, storm, DemCon/Thoracle, UBreach etc), so a handful of removal should suffice, depending on your playgroup naturally.

[@garak55]

20 dollars strict limit is the way to go. Then it's just no holds barred: build the most degenerate combo or the most restrictive stax or the fastest tron deck you like but you have to do it with 20 ct cards and actually think about what you're doing instead of copy pasting the top edhrec page.

[@engiopdf8745]

@@garak55 Except there's a metric ton of bad cards that are expensive just because they were printed one time and never again because they're so forgettable. Price is not a golden metric because you can just search for cards banned in pauper and go off from there.

[@garak55]

​@@engiopdf8745 Ok but you don't want to play bad cards anyway so why do you care? You're not playing arabian nights block constructed. And cards banned in pauper are not busted in a multiplayer format where people have access to rares and mythics. Hymn to tourach? High tide? Monastery swiftspear?Come on. A strict budget makes you weigh every deckbuilding decision taking care of the opportunity cost of every card. It makes deck building a lot harder and a lot more fun. You can't just go on edhrec and copy paste half the deck and you can't play "cOmMaNdEr StApLeS" in half the slots of your 99. It also makes you play games that actually feel like commander when the whole play group does it.

[@engiopdf8745]

@@garak55 High Tide is a card so good that you run it in budgetless. So, yes. It's pretty good.

[@garak55]

@@engiopdf8745 Good, you found one strong card for mono blue storm under $1. What were you trying to prove again?

[@MarioJPC]

Heck, I lost the number of times of Standard Sunfalls against my ONLY CREATURE! Or anyother sweeper, I don't play that many direct removal, but I play a few of them. A deathtouch commander is a creature removal in a stick. The Kami with the scales effects doesn't even need counters, it generates mana equal to its strenght, I sometimes use auras or temporal buffs to do a kind of Ritual effect. But yes, it is good.

[@tyrelledavenport106]

I just started playing in June playing Magic and I love strategy things so I took Strefan precon in March and just went and found cards that synergize. All the research I did made me believe that Strefan wasn’t really that great but everytime I pull him out I’m the target. I’ve been in a game with Belakor, Hydras, etc and yet I’m the target off the rip. So I’m not even sure if power level is meaningful it’s just hey he’s got some triggers, get rid of him but I’m fine losing to a 120/120 hydra later in the game 👍🏽

[@Marlax-101]

frankly from what i have seen building decks if you mana and card draw is good your deck will feel and work much better. you could run 6 cards that double your tokens you make and run 10 draw cards fine, you now have less than a 1 in 10 to get your doubling card and with your 10 draws you might have a 1 in 10 chance. but if you had 15 draw cards and good mana you will be surprised how many times you pop off randomly because drawing opens up more plays. i have noticed this a lot in precons i play where i have mana rocks most people dont run in their decks, the commander sphere, mind stone ect. i noticed when things got a bit rough i could just say screw it and draw a card which found another draw card which found another draw card which found something i could use and it 360 the game to allow me to win. because mana rocks like those both ramp a bit but can also thin the deck when you really need it. things like commander sphere for instance if you didnt play a land this turn you could say eh why not and sac it to draw a card, if its not a land you lost mana sure but you get to draw again next turn and if it is a land its one you would not of had and it replaces the sphere. it might not be the optimum deck but filtering through decks just does more. i would only be looking for 1 token doubling card for my deck to get more value instead of 6 and the other will be backup doublers in case the first one is taken out. so say instead of 6 doublers i run 3 doublers and then 3 recursion cards which are more flexible.

[@bradcox8754]

Want lvl 7s try Pauper edh or keep a strict budget limit 30-40-50$. These two options are the only things I've seen help limit power lvl in play groups or LGS.

[@PhotriusPyrelus]

I love the idea of 10 decks refined and balanced against one another. I wish MtG:A had such a format.

[@SmitikusPlays]

Harmonize in green for spell based mono green decks. Green draws well if you are making creatures or casting creatures, Voltron and Spell Slinger decks in mono green need draw cards to work.

[@Benjamin-on8td]

I run plenty pieces of removal but interaction is a lot harder now thanks to ward. I run more white counterspells now than single piece removal to deal with ward, cause they sadly have the same effect.

[@shamedostrich9736]

I definitely love Snail's videos. It's really made me take a good look at how I've build decks and what decks I currently play with that could use some changes to improve them in one aspect or another

[@almeerok7950]

I got so used to playing cEDH that as I'm hunting for a new playgroup since my pod disbanded I'm having to relearn how to build casual decks to the point where I only have 1 deck whereas I used to have 15 cEDH decks.

[@GranatappleLPT]

Personally, my low power expirience is building a deck that is not supposed to handle everything I have a brokkos list, that boils down to: ramp, bogle, mutate, repeat Loose a lot but at least get a fair amount of opponents with commander damage

[@vittoriosavian9964]

No deck should handle anything, but should actively contribute to the game.

[@Dogsarecoolnice]

Share the finished mothman deck!

[@voxpopuli2590]

It took me a while to get over my hate of counter spells (especially in blue) but I had a friend explain to me "its just a form of interaction, that card was a resource to stop something from going off that otherwise we might not have been able to." Don't get me wrong, I hate "free" counter spells but interaction is needed in the game at all points to a degree.

[@chadsamuels6512]

About board Wipes some bigger mana decks want tgier removal to be board Wipes. You want 7 or 8 in the deck to have one I n hand at the start of the game. It is a perfectly good strategy to sandbag your creatures the first 5 or 6 turns. Ramp Draw cards then bring everything to parity with a board Wipes then deploy your commander and start to do your thing

[@Marlax-101]

also running sub optimal things can actually help win games. for instance i have a precon mono black deck that has removal but most of it is non black creatures. many times in pods there will be black creatures that are a threat and ill say. most of my stuff is non black removal yall got to deal with that. you will be surprised how often that makes the strong black deck target my opponents and my opponents waste removal on the black deck. This many times has let me focus on building up a board state because i need it to help and save my removal to kill off my other opponents after the other black deck is delt with.

[@Ent229]

A lot of my 5-6 power games are with precons, slightly upgraded precons or decks that intentionally chose to be a comparable power level. New players happen, so the community has decks that would work for those games. Furthermore different players have preferences for different power levels. I build most of my decks for that 5-6 range because the games stay at the impressive endgame phase for longer in contrast to the short endgame phase for 7-8s. 5-6s have a variety of depleting lifepoint based strategies. I see voltron, wide aggro, finite life loss aristocrats, burn decks (storm, lightning bolts, and fireballs as different styles). While there are synergies, I don't think the term "hypersynergy" fits. Commander, especially at mid power and low power can be dominated by pet cards and cool interactions without a hypersynergy tax that high power might have.

[@Ent229]

I have 1 deck that does not work. Each game has me re-evaluate its power as lower and lower. It might be a 4 (but expects the opponents to have high albeit inefficient interaction). I have not seen many decks this year that I would describe as comparable to the 2011 commander decks. Luckily nothing is stopping you from making a low power deck. Commander as a format is unaffected by power creep because, once you know the power level you enjoy, you will be both upgrading and rebalancing your deck so it does its thing better but not stronger.

[@VvVLuffyM2]

I'm confused. Are you saying harmonize is an 8 or 9?

[@ThatMillGuyShaf]

No no, I mean I've seen Harmonize played in decks that felt too high power for it so I'm asking if there is a scenario where you would see it in a 7,8,9 power deck

[@xeper9458]

@@ThatMillGuyShaf Yeah I would consider running Harmonize if I want unconditional draw in my deck

[@VvVLuffyM2]

@@ThatMillGuyShaf I mean in monogreen maybe if you're running a budget 7. I'd never run it an in 8.

[@TheDemonGyro]

I've got it in my goreclaw deck because I've got into places where I've been hated down a few turns in a row and just need the draw to keep going. I've never had it feel like a dead card despite it sitting at the same cost as my commander. That being said, getting discounts on a lot of my creatures helps

[@lyndetuvasa]

Utility cards sound so sweet at first till you realize they do nothing on their own. It’s best to only include a couple

[@DaWasabiHD]

Instead of asking about power level, I've taken to asking: "Whats the scariest thing your deck can do?" and/or "What should I be wary of you doing?" Its far better to understand matchups and expectations within a pod, even helps new players self reflect on what their deck is trying to accomplish... and also helps you find sneaky liars who sandbag their deck. ;)

[@mono3474]

“Power Level” is why I stopped playing EDH because it’s all opinion based. There’s no rule or law of what cards can be played or used in each game you it’s up to the play group to figure that out. Switching to CEDH really helped my view on the format, no one can really complain on what cards you play and what strategy you use. The idea of CEDH is play to win the game and that kind set means everyone is sitting down at that table with the same expectations of the game.

[@Marlax-101]

i play pre cons into high power pods a lot. i actually tend to win a lot of game just by political moves and finding wierd comboes in a precon.

[@FizzarolliJ]

1:38 $20 decks are not weak if you are a good deck builder. I am a budget merchant and can confidently make most archetypes function as "real" decks with just $25, but that's just me

[@sowariginal536]

The statement made at 4:30 or thereabouts sums up the problem to a large degree. Plus, some people just hate losing and/or won't accept defeat. And, there's a whole "intelligence" level to the game: If I beat you, I'm smarter than you type of feel. So, basically, people need to learn how to make better gameplay decisions, accept defeat, and realize that there is an element of luck to the game in order for them to enjoy the game to its maximum potential.

[@KenpachiPoker]

My favorite deck is low powered blim. I have a Vito that I could add stuff to make it cedh but keep it at 9

[@sixtysixstyx]

cEDH Vito eh?

[@christopherspeck1287]

@@sixtysixstyx I’m inclined to say “X to doubt” because Vito nor Mono-Black outside of like Sidisi or K’rrik isn’t really doing anything that’s able to compete at proper cEDH table and not a “cEDH table” which is actually just a bunch of casuals trying to pubstomp and inadvertently ruining the reputation of the cEDH community.

[@itzmasterz]

I feel like commander games usually sort themselves out. While the actual power of the decks are an arbitrary scale…: if someone plays an 8 and everyone else plays a 5 or 6, an 8 will still have trouble if the other players are forced to work together to deal with it. You just have to play a few times with the same people to get a more accurate feel for what people are doing most of the time.

[@KeithCameRunning]

I don't build anything over like a 4 lol. I just think casual matches where it's ended cause someone attacked with a few 6/6s and something random that synergized.

[@0urher0nik0]

I made a really goofy persistent petitioners deck, that tries to do a mill combo. But it's pretty slow, and janky, which I consider low power.

[@EpicWin1337]

I just build my decks for high power or upgraded precon. High power is defined by presenting a win on turn 6 with some amount of interaction in hand or played. That is an 8 or 9 in my book. Upgraded precon is at most 10 cards replaced from the original to remove the secondary strategies they built in to focus the deck, and shore up something the deck is lacking. The open play stores tend to gravitate to around 9 power level since most decks aren't rocking the suite of fast mana and free interaction in all cEDH decks but are playing focused and powerful strategies.

[@V2ULTRAKill]

Yoh think TURN 6 is an 8 or 9? Try turn 4 or 5

[@EpicWin1337]

@@V2ULTRAKill yeah sure these definitions are loose and are a pretty wide range

[@V2ULTRAKill]

@@EpicWin1337 an 8 or 9 would be a step below cEDH cEDH standard is turn 2 to 3 Meaning the next step down would be turn 5 at the slowest

[@christophercombs7561]

I have no idea what the power level of any of my decks is buy I grab a theme and I run with it to the extreme

[@trevor228]

I made a nadu deck that doesnt have any equipment or infinite combos or token generators....still fun to play

[@metal--babble346]

in the old days, there was no mulligan. Surviving a bad draw was part of the challenge. Excessive shuffling turned a fast paced card game into a snoozefest. MTG video games are still popular, because they avoid shuffle time. The actual card game ?? ... it has become a scalpers paradise.

[@quintainsmith4597]

I used to play with a fella who would build super high power level decks and then when going crazy would complain about being "targeted"

[@gnockgnock6965]

Low Power EDH should be seen as low $ cost. It is a lot easier than people arguing what is "low power" for cards themselves.

[@fiercedeitylink2019]

the issue with that is that you can definitely make very strong decks on a tight budget, especially against other budgeted decks

[@gnockgnock6965]

@@fiercedeitylink2019 Good point. I guess people just need to get better at deckbuilding to try and make decks as close to CEDH as possible while in a budget.

[@uhmatcha1167]

You can build busted decks for like 20 dollars

[@gustavocve1779]

cEDH to me is the use of positive mana rock other than sol ring. If you're running mana crypt, mana vault, mox, grim monolith, lotus petal... then you're not playing casual edh. It doesn't matter if your deck is a crab tribal, you've built your deck for cEDH.