The Problem with Speed Shooting | Historical Archery

A detailed discussion on the historical application of speed shooting techniques in archery.
00:00 Introduction
02:42 Speed Shooting Myths
03:37 What is Speed Shootng?
05:37 Arab Whispers
15:17 The Real Truths
19:13 Pillars of Archery
32:59 Practical Applications
39:03 Evidence?
46:44 Conclusion
===
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[@PXCharon]

Historically, when the archer corps was threatened at close range, they drew hand weapons.

[@Forscythe80]

Seax was a famous sidearm for archers.

[@thormidthagahast8914]

No kidding? You mean they didn't just use their bows as a spear to poke the opposing army in the eye? Wow? Who would have thought they would have side arms as well as archery equipment? Just odd really. They shouldn't be allowed to do anything other than archery. Never mind the years of training. I thought they just stood there after using up their arrows and let the heavy horse run right over themselves.

[@zawirzubir3830]

Yup. Agree with you. Historic archers have side weapon too. Not just bow and arrow

[@athenovae]

That’s why as an unskilled archer, we have stabilizers for melee weapons for up close encounters. 😊

[@elmohead]

Nah, they would surf a shield and use their bows as a blunt weapon.

[@AutisticArcher]

Oh boy, another NuSensei video. How you doing, Nu? Keep them coming, man. I share your videos with the archers at my club

[@paweolszowy772]

Hi, great video, as always. Thanks for populating Archery in general, but also the pursuit of historically correct archery. I got into Asiatic archery relatively recent, and I wanted to start shooting Mongolian style. But to achieve that, I need to know how to do it correctly, that means having a good understanding of how they did it back then. I understand that they most likely had several shooting techniques that they used based on the circumstances, but there has to be some general rules, especially for long draw bows. If this is possible, I would be interested in how to hold a bow, how to draw, where is (if is at all) anchor point, how to aim (if aim at all). I respect you very much and know that you have a lot of knowledge, and if you are willing to share it, I think not only me would be interested in seeing it. Peace!

[@yeshuahamashiach901]

Thanks for the vids bro I am just getting into Archery a month ago you have helped me alot already

[@-fazik-3713]

Brilliant video!

[@ArthurNagae]

As always, thanks for the video NuSensei! Agree with the conclusions. Here's a slightly different perspective to add to the discussion Where I train (asiatic style), sometimes there is a small session of 'speed shooting'. I don't know who came up with it, but definitely not a historical thing As I practice it as a form of martial art, the main purpose of it is to learn to deal with pressure and a secondary reason is to expose some bad form that occurs when you go fully automatic. There isn't really any consequences to shoot faster or slower. The drill is to put 4-6 arrows on the target as fast as you can, without cutting corners. Even then, since everyone is trying to do it faster, this exercise makes the heart race, so the hands shake and forms compromise = there is a point to improve I don't recommend any of it for practical use at all. But for training conditions, as part of a larger session, with a clear purpose, and being fun to do, I say give it a try some day!

[@NUSensei]

We did a similar thing recently - we created a practical run-and-shoot style course that tested short-distance shooting, shooting from a kneeling position, and shooting with both hands. It was timed and scored. It was a fun test of skill (and most of us only shoot with one hand, so switching was a challenge for most of us). Later on when we attended Joel Turner's Shot IQ seminar, we were presented with a point that broke the mindset of some of our shooters: the only time where "speed" matters is on horse archery, and on horseback you are shooting "with your eyes". In every context on foot, you would be taking the time to deliver an aimed shot. Even half a second at full draw to align the shot would put every shot in a 40cm target at 18m, whereas even our good instinctive shooters (not even _speed_ shooting) would miss that target half the time. Thus one of the risks of creating a competition that puts pressure to shoot "quickly" can breed bad mindsets and shooting habits. There might be a reason why these speed courses aren't seen in treatises. They exist for horse archery, which makes sense given the function of mounted archers, but almost all treatises that cover foot archery focus on target, flight or clout shooting.

[@PeterOStecherClassicArchery]

Excellent work, Sir! Greets & Shoot Straight from Austria!

[@edgargee408]

Hello there love your videos man you honestly inspired me to start my archery journey. Thank you 🙏 bless your soul

[@williamwest831]

Good video over all. I was unfamiliar with how many gaps their are in historical texts in regards to archery. But not surprised. And the language barrier of the texts that do exist. Regardless of people’s intentions things get misunderstood as you say with the game Arab whispers. Cheers 🍻

[@Tennouseijin]

One interesting exercise for understanding the problems of historical sources is to find an event described by multiple authors. If you can read, say, a description of a battle provided on one hand by a chronicler hired by the winning side, on the other side a chronicler from the nation who lost the battle, and if we're lucky, maybe we can find a journal written by a soldier who participated in the combat too... and compare those to each other... sometimes the differences can be so big, you'd be asking 'are they even describing the same event?'

[@muhammadazmirabdulrahman9484]

More deep dives please; whenever convenient of course :)

[@William.N]

Definitely presented by a teacher.

[@Forscythe80]

But my archery simulation MMO* let me shoot thousands of arrows in only an hour and I wasn’t fatigued at all! *LotRO, but maybe it was only that effective as I was playing an elf.

[@Tennouseijin]

Video games have taught me that the more enemies there are, the faster you can shoot. Because most archers have some form of skill that 'hits every enemy on the map' - a million enemies means you can shoot a million arrows at once.

[@RyanRyzzo]

I can just hear the Rambu theme going all microtonal on the oud and tanbur... :D

[@NUSensei]

Oh, Bedouin, is anyone victorious? 'Tis a vast desert And it's as hard as the Kaaba's stone Pray tell, what dost thou do To endure under the scorching sun? When they let loose the first arrow That's but the dawn of the struggle From Fajr to Isha, thou must strive To keep thy flame alive 'Tis a vast desert

[@RyanRyzzo]

@@NUSensei Epic! I wonder if Farya Faraji can do something with it :D

[@272eg]

This reminds me a bit of the time when you refused to accept that it was possible to shoot with the arrow on the right side of the bow :-) .

[@societyofrobots]

I do combat archery and LARP archery, where we put safety tips on the arrows and actually simulate realistic archery warfare. The primary limit on your rate of fire is the likelihood of having a clear shot at a target. We hide behind trees, behind shields, run to be difficult moving targets, and even issues with friendly sword fighters between you and the enemy. In such conditions, I get maybe one arrow off every 5-10 seconds. The speed part is the time to get the next arrow ready, because if you don't have an arrow ready, you'll quickly get charged by both sword fighters and other archers.

[@Intranetusa]

By combat archery, you are talking about archery with other people rather than warbow/military archery right? The main hindrance to speed shooting in military archery is mostly the heavy draw weight of the bow where the person is exhausted very quickly by shooting quickly.

[@societyofrobots]

@@Intranetusa We shoot from 30 lbs to 60 lbs. War bows start at around 60 lbs. We must limit the poundage for safety reasons, and/or do partial draws when at close range. Heavy bows were only used in warfare when the enemy was heavily armored, or when the enemy fought in formations on an open plain making it easy to rain arrows from a distance. Horse archers didn't use heavy bows beyond 60-80 lbs. The style of archery we do would be more like that seen in forests, such as between native American tribes, and they used below 40 lb bows. That might not sound like a lot, but they were able to often defeat a modern US Army that had firearms.

[@bethearrow675]

"Combat archery" and LARP isn't simulating realistic anything. Are you one of them adult comic book nerds? I bet you got a bunch of super hero toys don't you? Sorry I meant "collectibles" As Ogre says NERDS!!!!

[@Intranetusa]

​ @Society of Robots - Horse archers often did use very heavy bows - there are historical records listing the draw weight of horse archers using bows of 100 lbs draw weight and more. For example, the [southern] Chinese Song Dynasty (10th to 13th cent. AD) archery exams involved draw weights of 160lbs for infantry archers and 120lbs for cavalry archers to become first class archers. To become second class archers, they had to shoot bows of 148 lbs for infantry, and 104 lbs for cavalry. A mounted archer received 5 points for hitting a target with a 134 lb bow, 4 points with a 119 lb bow, 3 points with a 104 lb bow. The [northern Chinese] Ruzhen Jin Dynasty in the early 13th century had a cavalry and infantry archery exam where the infantry archery required firing a bow of 67 kg (147.7 lbs). [Source: Chinese Archery by Stephen Selby]

[@societyofrobots]

@@Intranetusa It sounds like you're implying our combat archery isn't realistic because an elite archery group in China in one time period had to pass a strength test - one which may or may not have even been relevant in battle. Comanche horse archers took on the US calvary with 40 lb bows, and the Mongols took over the entirety of Asia with 60 lb bows. The effectiveness of an archer is not a just function of poundage, but also speed and accuracy. But that's not all, as strategy also matters. Choosing the right cover, deciding when to use that last arrow in your quiver, or predicting your opponents behavior so they can't easily dodge arrows all matter.

[@frazzle-lt1dy]

I know your annoyed with this question, but I thought here was the best place to ask. I am looking to get my first bare bow, I’m going to go to a shop so someone can help me. How much should I be budgeting for the bow and arrows?

[@romainsavioz5466]

- if you can shoot slow you can shoot faster -but isn't it sacrilegious - if you can shoot slow you can shoot faster

[@kmarchery]

Hey ho Nu . What triggered this deep dive ?

[@johnwolf7073]

do you think Archers with arrows could be used today in war? would there be any ideas how it could be better than guns?

[@NUSensei]

There would no absolutely no role for bows. At its very core, a bow is an unreliable method to launch a projectile whose accuracy depends on the variable skill of the user. On a battlefield with trenches, urban warfare and modern combined arms, investing resources into a weapon that can barely hit a target at 30m under ideal conditions, let alone under duress, let alone with immediate lethal effect, is madness.

[@Tennouseijin]

The only thing that comes to mind is survival situations, specifically hunting for food in a conflict zone. Say, you're a guerilla fighter trying to hide in a forest for months or years, a deserter, or a civilian hiding from the occupant in a conquered country. With a bow and arrows you could perhaps hunt animals, while being less likely to run out of ammunition or of making noise that could give out your position. I think that was plausible in 20th century conflicts, though it might be trickier in the 21st century.

[@naydahh569]

HI ITS NAYDAH AND EBONIE!! SHOUTOUT TO US PLES FROM 7D BTWWW

[@JoeTheBeanVR]

“I’m not naming anyone” Lars Anderson

[@Ashbringer85]

We need to have context, In war? which bow? which people? draw weight? English archers for example are said to have fired 10-12 shots a minute and this might be true of some individuals but I believe that average was more like 6-8 shots per minute...but they were firing warbows which were 70-150lbs of draw weight which is needed to penetrate good quality armour in mid 13th and 14th/15th century but before that you did not need a 70lb-150lb bow for war. The defence thing is silly...the enemy aren't going to leave archers to shoot at them freely unless they are a bunch of half wits. You didn't decide where you were going to fight (your lord did that). Max range - From what I have learned its very rare that archers fired at max range like they do in movies.kzbin.info/www/bejne/mGLHd618rMylnKc - Tods Workshops Agincourt myth busting with Dr Tobias Capwell talks about it. There being no art work at that time showing arrows being shot in the air is fairly good evidence.

[@mortenjacobsen5673]

Tod only adressed europe and mideaval archery with longbow, in Japan battle was started by an arrow beeing shot across the field, and arrows has little energi left shot at long or max distance.

[@Intranetusa]

The 10-12 arrows a minute claim, if true, probably comes from the Victorian era when English archers became much weaker and much weaker bows were used for hunting and sport/target archery.

[@treelore7266]

the meme: one archer against multiple opponents the reality: multiple archers against single opponent also: armoured crossbowmen defeat horse archers by killing their horses while suffering low casualties from light arrows needed to reach them outside of their own range.

[@naydahh569]

SHOUTOUT TO 7D!!!

[@jswanson47]

Speed shooting could possibly be useful when ambushing or skirmishing. If they ambush a larger but unready force with a few people, shoot all their arrows in a short amount of time, and run the hell away (without the added encumbrance of your arrows).

[@nedflanders4158]

No, speed shooting for battle doesn't exist. Did you not watch this video?

[@UTxTheArchangel]

@@nedflanders4158 Did you read his comment? He didn't say speed shooting for battle exist, he said there could be a POSSIBLE situation where the idea of speed shooting could be used. Which regardless of what the video says, who knows what future equipment will exist to aid in the hypothetical. Which is what the comment is, its a hypothetical that has nothing to do with battle of the ancients or current.

[@nedflanders4158]

@@UTxTheArchangel there is ZERO POSSIBILITY of a situation where speed shooting is needed or helpful in a violent situation.

[@UTxTheArchangel]

@@nedflanders4158 you can change the context all you want to make yourself not sound foolish for misreading. Nobody said needed, his post isn't about need.

[@nedflanders4158]

@AnubisTheGamingArcher lol as you are unable to use any logic let me spell it out so you can understand then using the same phrases as OP. SPEED shooting will NEVER be "possibly" useful in an "ambushing or skirmishing" situation. That's NOT how bows work.

[@PureZOOKS]

Looking forward to Shadiversity to watch half of this, then make a 2 hour long "Debunking" video.

[@apolyedapolyed7524]

Sensei, I love your videos, but this 52'11" LONG video essay is ... too deterring ! 😅

[@vfc1860]

You forgot about the native American Indian and the horse bow.

[@ConnallTara]

awesome deep dive Nu and I rather appreciate the presentation format specifically, makes flipping back and forth for specific details nice and easy. just to add in an extra wee source I happily stumbled upon recently which is a bit related, we do have some details regarding expected ranges and rate of fire for longbows. "A right exelent and pleasaunt dialogue, betwene Mercury and an English souldier contayning his supplication to Mars: bevvtified with sundry worthy histories, rare inuentions, and politike deuises." by Barnaby Rich (English Authors really do love their dialogues for talking about archery don't they?) it discusses comparisons between the use of longbows and the rise of blackpowder weaponry, admittedly advocating for the latter, but it includes some useful snippets of information from the period, written in 1574. (though it's important to note the author's bias in their advocating for muskets.) it's rather similar to the toxophilus in that you have to spend some time bending your brain around period English spelling and the Author's insistence of writing it as a dialogue/play; but within the text it mention some hard(ish) numbers for longbows in terms of range and expected rate of fire (with some particular focus on accuracy being a prime concern. to paraphrase we get upper ranges of longbowmen for 160-200 yards (xx score, presuming a score = 20) explicitly and an expected rate of fire of 8 arrows to 5 shots in practical shooting against firearms of the period. it's a fascinating little document from right at the end of the longbow's wider use within England during Elizabeth the 1st's reign, right at the very twilight of Archery in wider military usage in europe. the university of michigan has a copy available online if people want to have a dig in. :>

[@NUSensei]

8 shots is about right for those longbows. Later sources tend to push the 10-12, which is probably possible if someone was driven to do so _or_ took liberty in how they shot (such as a partial draw), but 6-8 aimed shots is a much more realistic rate.

[@naydahh569]

I HAVE UR AUTOGRAPH

[@Glace1221]

Didn't know Rambo was a Hun

[@AlfaRevoluzione]

Hun = Giant Hungaria = Giant Ayran

[@jonh4872]

Noooo muh myths! 😢

[@markussmith5818]

Idk when I see someone shoot a bow on cod and win because it one shot killing machine lol😅

[@Diggs5012]

Arab whispering = Whisper Down The Lane

[@mortenjacobsen5673]

Before people rant and rave about draw weight, too hunt a black bear you only need 80 lbs, thats 40 ish kg, go to any gym and you will se people doing reps with this, 180 lbs war bow!!?? Go to gym she how many easaly lift 90 kg dead lift, training archers to pull 100 lbs should only take a few months

[@emmeaberg]

Could those numbers be based on compound bows, maybe? Read that those are stronger per weight. Then again, I know fuck all about archery.

[@mortenjacobsen5673]

@@emmeaberg true, but its about the dynamic efficency, high in compound bows low in english self bows or laminated ones, the heavier now the stronger and more mass the arrow need not to shater or break, so the heavier arrow will absorbed more energi from the bow, but with heavy limbs that mass also need to be moved, accelerated, sound, vibraton, a compound uses better material and modern arrows with carbon etc. But in reality 40 lbs is enough to hunt most animals, and humans are soft targets unless armoured

[@Intranetusa]

The comparison does not work. Archery uses very specific muscles that are not targeted by weightlifting exercises, so people who can lift 200 lbs usually will not be able to steadily draw a 100 lb bow. And military archery wasn't about being able to pull the bow for a weightlifting excercise like 5 reps x 3 sets...a measley 15 times. It was about pulling the bow, holding the bow at full draw, then accurately shooting it so it hits the target, and then being able to do it for most of a day because a battle might last for many hours. All of that requires a person train for years before being competent at military archery.

[@mortenjacobsen5673]

@@Intranetusa dead lift put the same isometric stress on the trapesius, the Triceps keep your arms from ripping of and the grip strengt to hold the bar is the same as hooking the string, the only muscle left out is the rhomboid, with war bow archer avd speed shoot er and mach, kyodo dont use, only target archer use it, so dominant muscle will be the trapesius and the inccorect use of Triceps to draw back the bow., and or the lower back if you do the hiv and hoy for levrage, so if you do a Seated row exorcise its perfect for archery,

[@-fazik-3713]

@@mortenjacobsen5673 While gym strength training helps it will not directly correspond to draw weight. I have seen many "neckless" beefy strong guys, who probably could lift me off the ground (no easy task ...), who could not draw a 30# bow without visibly shaking. I also met quite a few climbers who, despite their looks, could draw very heavy bows - like 60+ with ease, despite never having a bow in their hands. Bow are fascinating and strange ...